308 - Navigating the Emotional Landscape of Facilitation with Kerri Price

What does it take to make workshops work? And how can we facilitate collaboration that sticks and leads to results? My name is Miriam Hadnes, and with the Workshops Work podcast, I'm on the mission to find the magic ingredients that make workshops work. Today with me on the show is Kerry Price, and we geek out on facilitation without boundaries. We speak about the misconceptions, we speak about our challenges, our growth and learnings, and about some maybe more controversial ideas about facilitation. So stay tuned and don't forget to scroll down to the show notes to find more information and to subscribe to the show if you liked it. And now lean back and enjoy. Hello, Kerry, welcome to the show.

Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's lovely to be here.

I cannot believe that it's, uh, we've been orbiting around each other on LinkedIn for years now. And finally found our way together. You joining from New Zealand, me joining from Australia, which makes it easier to connect.

Yeah, it's always a struggle when you're on this bottom part of the world. There seems to be so much amazing stuff happening around Europe and America and Canada. And so it's lovely to have you down under and for us to be able to connect at a time when we're both awake.

Yes, yes. And it's not in the middle of the night for one of us.

Yeah.

Yes, I'm very curious to hear about your learnings and your perspective about facilitation, and maybe some misconceptions about facilitation, because I see you very generously sharing on LinkedIn all your experiences. And I'd love to start at the beginning. When did you start calling yourself a facilitator, assuming that you do?

That's a great question. I think I am like so many other facilitators in that I was doing it for such a long time accidentally without even realizing that this thing I was doing had a name and that other people were doing it too. So when did I start calling myself a facilitator was probably around 2007. 2007, something like that. So maybe 15 years ago, but I'd been doing it for a good 10 years before that accidentally. I'd been facilitating meetings, I'd been facilitating workshops, people had been shoulder tapping me to do things that I just kept saying yes to, totally making it up as I went along. And then it was about 2007, 2008 when I launched my first proper business, for want of a better word, proper facilitation business that I realized it had a name. I was doing a thing and that there were other people in the world doing it too. That was the exciting bit. It wasn't just this thing I'd made up. Yeah, so a little while now.

Yeah, and what I hear is turning something that feels like a calling into a business that has value So that you can charge for it instead of thinking, oh, that's my hobby, or I'm doing something good for participants or the world?

Yeah. So when I first started facilitating, I was working with different organizations and I was facilitating meetings and workshops internally for our team. And people just started asking me. And I said to my husband, I think I think this side hustle, like this thing that I'm doing for joy and love, and that, that seemed to come so easily to me. I was like, yeah, you're like, people want this. I think I've accidentally started something. And so for me, it really was that I love doing this. I love being in this space. And wow, like people want it and see value and will pay me for it. That was a pretty cool experience, to be fair.

Yeah. And I think it resonates with many. And it was similar for me. I was hosting meetups and I called them idea parties, which were basically brainstorming sessions. And then people started to ask me to help them with their workshop design. I'm like, oh, that's a thing apparently.

Yes.

And it makes me wonder, it makes me curious, and this will put us right into the topic. That there are many who think or who start dreaming of a career as a facilitator or starting their own business because they were exactly in this place, working for a corporate or an institution, hosting workshops and getting more and more requests internally to host workshops. And then they believe, oh, I can make a business out of that. What are maybe the misconceptions, the traps, or even the, the challenges in that?

I think when I look back to when I sort of made that leap, um, one of the challenges that I had then was valuing myself enough. If you have been working somewhere where you get an hourly rate, you're on wages, you kind of every hour you show up you get paid for, it's quite a big leap to realize that while you might be working full-time in this business, there's only so many billable hours, right? There's only so many hours that you're actually doing client work. And so feeling completely okay to charge big numbers because you have to account for all the hours that you're working on the business that nobody's paying you for. And so getting my head around that and, and feeling confident to spit out these big numbers when I'm talking to clients and be completely okay with that, that was a challenge, I think, at the beginning. And so with— if people are just starting out, getting their head around that's an important step, I reckon.

Yeah. And I think also the other way around, that if you're facilitating as a side hustle from within a company, there's a lower risk. And it's also— it's okay to wing it. Having a facilitator who does it is better than having no facilitator. While when you suddenly start your own business, you will be judged by very different standards.

Yeah, I think, and especially when you actually start calling yourself a facilitator rather than just, oh, I'll come in and help you with your meeting or help you with your workshop. There's a different expectation attached to I am a facilitator. But I think the point that you make there is really valid in that Sometimes we put enormous expectations on ourselves as a facilitator, and we get a little disappointed if it doesn't go exactly how we imagined it would be. But for the most part, whatever we did in the room was going to be more useful than if there wasn't a facilitator to begin with.

Mm-hmm.

And so it's easy to beat ourselves up for not, you know, reaching whatever gold standard we've set for ourselves. When from the client's perspective, whatever showed up was already way better than what was going to, to start with.

Yeah, interesting. I'm thinking of this expectation management because yes, it will never be as we planned and wished for because we are dealing with human beings and group dynamics. And then how do we set our own expectations? How okay are we with Being nimble in the moment. And that's maybe then where the expertise also comes in. Maybe the misconception that you can plan everything. Yeah.

And I think, again, it keeps coming back to that being okay with things. I think as a facilitator, the acceptance of stuff is so important. And so the understanding that you can't plan for everything, like you said, the human beings we're working with. So understanding that that's the case and being okay with it. So I know that there's facilitators who go, yeah, yeah, I get that you can't plan for everything, but I want to be able to plan for everything.

Mm-hmm.

Like, there's this— there's an understanding without the acceptance. So I think getting to that place of acceptance makes you a much more impactful facilitator.

Mm-hmm.

Because whatever energy you bring to the room is, you know, you're the thermostat. You set that energy. And if you are anxious about things going off plan and trying to keep sort of wrangling it back in, participants pick up on that. Then they'll get anxious that it's going off plan. So acceptance is such a powerful tool, I think.

Yeah, you're the thermostat. I love that. 100%. Yeah. And I loved something else you just said. It's, um, yes, you can want to plan, and that's okay. You can plan for things, but don't expect that this plan will actually realize in the way you planned for it. Um, so they're two different things.

Yeah, I think for me, the plan is always just It's like when you go on a road trip, right? You know where you're heading and you have a loose plan that you might stop at various places along the way. But if you get a flat tire or there is a detour in place because of roadworks or there is snow starts falling or whatever it is, you need to work with that. You don't have a choice. Now, that doesn't mean, well, we're no longer going to the city or we're no longer going to where it is that we're going. It's just that you make the detours as and when they show up.

Yeah, great analogy. And not all road trips are made equal. So for instance, I love the road trip where actually I might know the first 2 or 3 stops, but I have no idea what comes after because I love these encounters that you meet other travelers or locals and they tell you, oh, you really have to go there. And then I ditched all the other plans. And like, yeah, which can also happen in a workshop. You have all these plans and all these stops, and then you realize that you actually have to cancel it because what you really need to do is something very different.

Yeah. And again, it comes back to that acceptance of it, not changing the plans reluctantly or begrudgingly, but the acceptance that that's what needs to happen in this moment and for these people.

Yeah. Yeah. What role did training play in your facilitation career and as you build your facilitation business? And I would, yeah, and then came back to it. That's a different story.

So training for me. So what training did I partake in?

Yeah. And what role did it play?

Yeah. So I was facilitating, I would say, for a good 6 or 7 years before I even realized that there were particular methodologies or training or anything available. I was just oblivious to this world that existed.

So—

And then I became—

I was—

I must have been living under a rock, but I just— I was oblivious to the wider community. And I guess acknowledging that back when I started, there wasn't so much online stuff. There wasn't— yeah, there was— it wasn't so accessible, I guess. But then once I discovered there were things, I just became hungry and just— I just sort of went on anything that sparked my interest. And not necessarily certifications for different methodologies, just bite-sized things. And read and read and read and read and read. And I'm a big fan of liberating structures, so I've kind of sucked up all of that. I love Lego serious play, but I'm one of these facilitators who takes a whole lot of different methodologies and then messes them up a bit and then puts them back together in a different way because that's what works for me.

Yeah, yeah, love that, which is interesting as it reflects our own learning style and preferences. I'm similar. So I— it took years before I took the first facilitation training. And now hear also more and more the different sides, because I felt very self-conscious and a little bit timid around, around it for a long time. Oh, am I an imposter? I haven't had any certification. Am I actually allowed to call myself a facilitator? And then realized that Sometimes it actually helps us to develop our own style because there's not the one way to facilitate. And then we are more agile, maybe more creative if we find something that works for us. But then also seeing that it's, oh, there's something out there that actually confirms what I've been doing anyway, or elevates it. Oh, if I do it slightly different, I could be even more impactful.

I love that. I love how you articulated that because I think that's so true for me too, in that because I hadn't started with training and been trained in a particular methodology or a particular way, I wasn't aware that there was one way to do things. So I wasn't locked into, oh, this is what facilitation looks like. And I was really just cobbling pieces together. And then when I did start doing training in various various forms. And I was like, oh, I already do that, but I call it XYZ. Or— and so all of these different methodologies, which all have great things to learn, they're kind of all slightly different versions of the same thing, and someone's put a little spin on it and called it something else. And it helps you reflect on what you're doing, and like you say, the little tweaks. But I, I do love the fact that I made it up for myself for such a long time and really kind of got a groove for what worked for me and then built on that rather than the other way around.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And when you're— oh, before I go there, I would love to hear your story because in our exploration call you mentioned that you, you had a facilitation business and then you could And then you decided to take a sabbatical and to travel. And when you came back, it wasn't so sure whether you would want to continue the facilitative work. And still you did. So, um, I would love to hear about this love-hate relationship, where the doubts came from.

Oh, that's, that's so true. So I had grown a facilitation business where I had a number of facilitators working alongside me. We had resources, we had annual events, we had, you know, the whole shooting box. And I had set that business up in such a way that it was saleable, so it could, it could exist without me. And I sold that back in 2018, I think it was. And we, my husband and I, jumped on a, um, 50-foot catamaran, our boat, and we headed off into the Pacific to do volunteer work. Uh, COVID sent us home because we were stuck in 2 different countries when the borders closed, and coming home was how we got to stay married. But when I, when I came back, I, I'd had this break away from it, and I said to my husband, I, I really want to do something different. I felt like I'd been facilitating my whole life. I'd started in early childhood education, which is essentially facilitation for 4-year-olds, and then I'd moved into roles where I was doing facilitation accidentally, and then I'd started this facilitation business, and I was like, maybe I just want to do something completely different. But I wasn't sure what. And then our local council heard I was home, and I do a lot of work with local government, and they convinced me to come and do a couple of days of facilitation, and which I said yes to. And as soon as I got back to the front of the room, I thought, oh, I love this space. I love the unknown. I love group dynamics. I love seeing at the end of a session that it's been useful, that mind shifts have happened, that collaboration has happened. Like, I love the impact that you can make in a reasonably short period of time. But the hate relationship— what I've realized in hindsight was the last business I had, I grew with so many people and things that we were doing that I had fallen away from the facilitation, and I was spending a lot of time running the business.

Hmm.

And that had just absolutely drained me. So this time around, I'm back with a facilitation business, but I'm very mindful of the stuff that I enjoy is the facilitation. So yes, I need to run the business, but I don't want the balance to shift so that I'm spending more time on admin than I am doing anything else.

I love that. Thank you. And, uh, what a journey. And I think how powerful is it to have the choice or the freedom to break away from something that has been your career and then still decide for it with the liberty to shape it in a way that it actually works for you?

Yeah, and I think the difference is, you know, it's, it's ages and stages and seasons of life, isn't it? I think while I loved everything I was doing in that business, and we were— I know the difference that was being made in the community sector, which was the sector that we were working. There was still something I was trying to prove to myself, I think, that I could grow this business and I could do, you know, and that— and it was, uh, it was kind of another challenge. And now I kind of feel like, yeah, I've been there, done that. I know I can do it, but I don't want to do it again. This time around, I'm older and wiser. Probably a little less energy than I had. And I know which parts would I enjoy. So being able to be really mindful of that, I think, is a real gift.

Yeah. And I guess I'm projecting because I was also thinking of the people dynamics that when you grow the business and you have facilitators working for you, then suddenly you're not only managing yourself, the client, And designing and the groups. No, you're also managing the people around and that group and these dynamics. And I came through a different loophole. I was first a freelancer, then I started the community facilitating facilitators and now closed that. And I'm actually very happy in a space where I don't have to interact and to manage that many people anymore.

It's so good knowing that about yourself, isn't it? Like, once you work out the bits that bring you joy and the bits that don't, yeah, it can create a really powerful shift. Yeah.

And I think it's something that we tend to forget when we're— when we start an entrepreneurial or freelance career, that we must be doing what comes easy to us and what is joyful and outsource all the rest, because otherwise we're wasting our time and energy. Why would we do something that we are not excellent at? Yeah, that's the entire point of being an entrepreneur.

Yeah. And I think too, we rob opportunities from other people to do those things well. So while we're floundering around trying to do the stuff that bores us to tears, that's an opportunity for someone else who really loves doing that stuff. So By outsourcing that stuff, we can give other people joy.

Yeah, yeah. And get their perspectives in, which is another thing that is so important in facilitative work. Yeah, yeah.

And I think the other thing about that too is, as you— if you're new to your own business or sort of stepping out as an entrepreneur, we can mistakenly— and here's one of these misconceptions— We can mistakenly think that if you want to be successful, you have to continue to grow. It has to be bigger and better every year. And what's the next step? And actually, who said we all have to be the Coca-Cola of facilitation, right? Who said that maybe a really successful business for you is just you doing a workshop a week, you know, just— and it's just you and you've got a little bit of admin, like That's great if that fulfills your work to do in the world and makes you happy. And like, growth for growth's sake is not the end game.

Yes, hell yeah. And then growth looks different for different people. Is growth monetary growth? Is growth status? Is it hiring people, having better clients? Um, what does growth actually mean?

Yeah, like at some point you can actually go, I've made it, I'm quite happy to just sit here, this brings me joy. Like growth isn't— yeah, it's not always necessary.

Yeah, yeah. And then the differentiation— I had, um, a conversation recently with a colleague, an associate of mine. So I'm now running an agency, so I work with freelance facilitators. what I call associates, so they're not on my payroll. And what I find interesting in the world of facilitation is there are those who enjoy air quote sailing under their own flag. So that's the entrepreneurial part also of the facilitation, to find the clients, to build the relationships, to send these proposals, to get the rejections, all of that. And then there are those who are actually content with Delivering the work and sailing on someone else's flag, not having to deal with the clients directly, not having to send the proposals, but being reached out to. I have a job for you. Are you willing to take it? Sure. And stepping in. And both ways are absolutely fine. There's no pressure to do it one way or the other way. But I think for peace of mind, it's so important to know what works for us.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think sometimes that only happens by finding out what doesn't work for you.

Yes.

Like, until you do some things and you're like, wow, this is— yeah, this is not something that's bringing me joy, then you can cross that off the list.

Yeah. And I, um, it's funny that you say that. I had this feeling once I was working as an associate for someone And as much as I loved the ease, my entire body, I did it once. And then I realized I have to be very honest to myself here that I don't enjoy sailing under someone else's flag. I don't enjoy delivering a workshop that I haven't designed myself and all of these things. And there was a voice in my head that said, oh, Miriam, don't be so egotistical. You're self-absorbed. Who are you to? Until I just found peace with it. And then sitting on the other side, I was having conversations with 2 potential associates. And in both cases, we came to the conclusion that it's not for them. They were excellent facilitators, but for them to deliver someone else's, my content, sailing under my flag, wouldn't work.

Yeah.

And that was okay. It has nothing to do with ego. It's just, If we have developed our own material, we want to deliver it.

100%. And I'm with you, I would be really uncomfortable delivering someone else's content, and because I would immediately want to tweak it and play with it and change it up. And being bound into a particular way of doing things, it's just— yeah, I would find that really uncomfortable. But equally, there are facilitators in our network who All they do is, is show up and deliver other people's content, and they're as happy as happy as happy. That's their happy place. And I think, like you say, it takes all kinds, right? Like, and I think if we can work together with other facilitators so that everyone's doing the bit that they love, then we're much stronger for it as a community.

Yeah, yeah. And there's another misconception. For the longest part, I think until COVID, I thought that facilitation is a solo, solo journey. And the concept of co-facilitation, I encountered it quite late and now wonder, how could I, how could I do it without a network, without a community, without co-facilitators in the space?

Yeah, I agree. I've seen it a lot more since COVID as well. I was certainly in and around it earlier than COVID, but there's definitely been a big spike. And I think generally as facilitators, more collaborative. Another thing I've noticed, I think, since COVID is that there was— pre-COVID, there seemed to be almost a cliquey elitism exclusiveness to facilitators.

Hmm.

And I think there's this realization now that actually Um, facilitation in and of itself is a skill that lots of people use, and they're not facilitators per se. And so people are recognizing that facilitation is for leaders and church pastors and community advisors and like trainers. Like this whole kind of exclusive, pure facilitation has been rattled to go—

Mm-hmm.

Actually, this is available and accessible for everyone. And I think it's become in the last few years a whole lot more inclusive.

Yes, thankfully.

Thankfully.

Because I— and there's a distinction, I think. Is it— are we referring to tools that we use, activities that we do, or are we referring even to the mindset? The mindset of trusting that the group has all the answers, trusting the process.

Um, yeah, and for me, I think it boils down to acknowledging that the wisdom is in the room, regardless of whether you're training or trying to build some sort of collaborative project. Actually, the wisdom is in the room, and our job as facilitators is to find out what that wisdom is to start with. That's the starting point. Before we go railing off in a particular direction, let's find out what's already in the room.

Yeah. And one thing that just crossed my mind is, and that's maybe provocative, so what if the wisdom is not in the room? And then I was just thinking that maybe it's an opportunity and a restriction at the same time. So it's That's the boundary. We have to work with what we have. So yes, the wisdom is in the room per definition, because we have invited these people, or they self-selected, and there's nothing we can do about it but surrender to the fact that the wisdom is in the room. Yeah, I love that.

I love that provocation, because when I think about the wisdom being in the room, I also recognize that I am in the room. So it's not, it's not saying that I don't have wisdom that I can bring.

Mm-hmm.

But my first port of call is to find out what other wisdom exists. What do participants bring? And again, it depends on what you're doing, right? Like, if you are training someone in something, Then you may well have some wisdom that, that is missing within the participants.

Hopefully.

But what I would always do is start by finding out what wisdom is in the room and then worry about filling in the gaps rather than assuming that there is nothing. And what I also do in that space, and I love what you were saying to me the other day about, um, you use the word training as a bit of a Trojan horse because it's, you get in there and it's actually facilitation. But, um, what I also do if I'm ever facilitating learning, so facilitating in a training space, is that I bring in activities where they discover the learning for themselves rather than me telling them the point. And so then at that point, the wisdom is in the room. They've discovered that wisdom for themselves without me having to point it out. So I think it's much, for me anyway, the wisdom being in the room In a training perspective, it's much more a philosophy to start with that assumption.

And then, and to rely on the resources we have access to in the moment instead of finding excuses why a task at hand or discussion cannot, cannot happen.

Yeah, yeah, that's a great point.

And then how to use it.

I was gonna say, I think when it comes to the other end of that sort of facilitation continuum where you really are facilitating process and facilitating collaboration, then that very much is the case of relying on the wisdom in the room. I remember doing a session with a bunch of chemical engineers. I knew nothing about chemical engineering, and all I was there to do was ask really good questions and guide them along the process. And so I'm really had to trust that the stuff that was bubbling up was the best possible stuff.

Yeah, and I love that. And I think in some occasions our ignorance is bliss in the way that we do ask these very good or very dumb questions— dumb in air quotes— because we don't know and might ask a question that they have never considered because they're in their expert bubble, but this was actually the question they needed. And also, especially in process facilitation, if they have to get to the buy-in, they have to do the work the Monday morning after the workshop. So if we don't work with what we have at hand, if we don't work with the wisdom in the room, then on Monday morning nothing happens.

Yeah, 100%. People need to be able to create things for themselves. I saw something on LinkedIn the other day and dearly wish I could remember who wrote it. So if they're listening to this, they might even be able to say it was me. But they said there's no ownership without authorship. And I thought, ah, that's so— when you think about working with groups, if they don't author whatever it is that they're going to be working on, the ownership is always diminished somewhat.

I love that. Yes. Yeah. And we—

I wish I could tell you who it was. Someone far cleverer than me, I'm sure.

Yeah. And especially thinking of all the technology we can use now in workshops. So we can outsource brainstorming to AI. We can outsource the clustering to AI. But what we are actually outsourcing is the authorship. Yeah. And then how can they own it and really push it forward?

Yeah. So, and I think that what you've just hit on there is very true of so many aspects of facilitation, I think, in that it's the invisible thing that's happening that's actually the important thing. It's not that they are getting at themselves and clustering things on Post-it notes when AI might do it faster. It's the reason behind us asking them to cluster it themselves that's important.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I think that is— I, I think one of the key misconceptions with facilitation is that it's a bunch of activities doing a bunch of different things, and if they write on Post-it notes and put them on flip charts, then that makes facilitation. But it's the really subtle little things like asking people to stand up and go and find a partner rather than just turning to the person next to them, because you know they need to stand up and get some energy. Like It's all those really, the little tiny invisible things that to someone watching, they wouldn't even notice.

Yes.

Yeah.

What a great example. Yeah. Or distributing the pen so that everyone takes notes and not only the facilitator. Yeah.

Yeah. And I point out, um, I do a lot of facilitation training for new facilitators, and as we go through different things, I'll get them to reflect on, so what did you notice me just do?

Hmm.

And it's interesting, in the beginning they won't notice much, and then as we start going through, they notice more and more because they're tuned into the really little things that I say. Like, if I'm trying to gather in ideas, I will say, what else? What else? What else? And then when I'm like, okay, I think we've kind of got everything, we're running out of time, or whatever it might be, I will say, Is there anything else? And just that change of phrase from what else to is there anything else changes the way people bring things into the room. That's the invisible side of facilitation that most people wouldn't even hear or notice you saying, but it makes a difference.

Yes, love that. And before I follow you on the path, I would be curious what What do you think is essential when you're training new facilitators? And before I get there, I would like to come back to the clustering because I think that's also— I love that you say it's a misconception and then we just cluster. And you said the reason why we cluster. So what is it for you? What is the why and what are the different ways we can cluster? Because I think it's a fascinating area that we often overlook.

Yeah. So for me, it's not necessarily the why we cluster, but why we ask participants to do that rather than sourcing it to AI. And I think for me, why I do it anyway is because it's in the process of clustering that participants then start to unravel, oh no, what I meant by that is, rather than AI assuming what was meant by that is.

Mm-hmm.

And so often the— it's the nuance of what's written on those things that is the important part, right? And that's like a whole step. But sometimes I've been in workshops where people have— we've been asked to jot things on, on Post-it notes and they're all put on the wall and then we start to cluster and I'm like, wait up, we haven't even like unraveled some of these things yet. Like, I don't know what he or she means by XYZ. A great example of that is work I do with teams around values. And we do an exercise where people choose, you know, if it was up to them, only up to them, um, no, didn't have to consult anyone else, what would the 5 values be that they think the team should work by? And people are writing down the same words but with completely different ways of articulating that and completely different meanings. And so you might cluster that together without exploring it and find actually it's not a cluster at all.

Or you might remove the duplicates.

Yeah.

And then you actually meant 2 different things, but assume that it's— yeah. Yeah.

So if you were to throw all of that into AI, it doesn't have that next layer of information.

Yeah.

And meaning.

Yeah. I love how you explained it. It triggers the conversation. the clustering. You basically force them to have a closer look and to ask, okay, where do I put that? So you have to ask what's actually written on it and do I understand it well? And the alternative of, okay, so have a look and read through all the sticky notes and let us know if you have a question. There are those who love detail, they will have lots of questions. And those who are maybe more like me, like the big picture people, oh yeah, it's all clear.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think the act of clustering shows things up. Like, someone's choosing to cluster this and this together, and someone else is like, why are you putting those things together? You know, like, there's this— it just opens up conversation about different perspectives.

Yeah, and really gives opportunity to bring in this different view of the world, because a cluster means— yeah, which clusters do you choose. And that's another thing. It's, I think, these, all the variables we have as a facilitator. So we could predefine the clusters. We can let them choose the clusters. And then instead of asking them to cluster, we could also have a grid and quadrants. Where would you put these? Um, that's work that I love to do. In which quadrant would you put the sticky notes?

Mm-hmm.

And then primes them in a certain direction, but still forces them to look at the sticky note and really think, okay, what does it actually mean and where do I want to place it?

I think, and what you've said there raises a really valid point, like there might be workshops where it is the most generous thing to do for the group for the facilitator to define the clusters. There may be another workshop where the most generous thing to do for the group is to let them define the clusters. And there isn't a right or a wrong way. And I guess when I, I look at different things, different ideas that come up on LinkedIn, and people are like, oh, I would never define the clusters, or I would never— it's like, well, never is a really strong word, right? Like, the way we work with groups is so nuanced, and we can have some really great useful principles, but I think we have to be open to shaping the exactness of what we do in any given situation. Yeah, because there is no one right way.

Yeah, and I love your wording. You said sometimes it can be most generous for us to define the cluster. Sometimes it's most generous So the word generous in this context really resonates with me because you could have said it can be most efficient, more effective, make most sense. No, it's this generosity. What is it that the group needs?

Yeah. And that is, that's a question that I am constantly asking myself in a session. What is the most generous thing I could do for the group right now? And sometimes that is stepping into a place of authority. Sometimes that is stepping back from that and letting them just muddle their way through. It really is dependent on context, and that will change from moment to moment.

Yeah, beautiful. When you train newbie facilitators, where do you start?

Um, I always start— if I go back to this, a previous part of our conversation And figuring out what do they already know, or what do they already think they know? What are the assumptions that they're bringing into the room? What do they think facilitation is? So my groundwork is always about finding the wisdom that's in the room in terms of what do they know so far, but then getting really clear on what their assumptions are. Because what I find is we often need to bust a whole lot of those out of the way before we can even start.

Yeah. What is your favorite, favorite in air quotes, assumption that you think, oh, let's bust that?

Oh, my favorite assumption is that you must use slides. No, you don't need to use slides. Yeah, so often it will— people We'll quickly talk about when you're developing a slide deck. I'm like, well, I can count on one hand the amount of times I've used slides in 25-odd years, you know, like, so that's an assumption we clean up pretty quickly.

I remember, I, um, I think it was with Rebecca Southern, one of the first Never Done Before festivals, where she hosted a workshop on, yeah, facilitation myths or assumptions. And where we would go through all of them. Facilitators facilitate. Facilitators have to facilitate. Is that true? Facilitators should manage time. Is that true? And when we dig deeper, it's actually, there's very little that we really have to do or should be doing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think another assumption is— and this was triggered for me when you said that we have to do— is I think another assumption is that we are completely responsible for what happens in the room. And when we carry that responsibility on our shoulders, it can be debilitating. And if something goes wrong— wrong, when I say wrong in air quotes— You know, if it, if it really turns into something unhelpful, it's easy to go away and beat yourself up about that. But I believe that as facilitators, we cannot make anyone feel anything.

Mm-hmm.

We cannot make anyone do anything. All we can do is create the environment where those feelings or those actions have the best chance of showing up. But we're not responsible for the attitudes or the energy that people bring into the room.

Yes. And I would even go further that I would even cross out the facilitator. We as humans cannot make people feel or do anything. We can create conditions and do our best to promote that 100%. And I think that's why it's so important to clear our own shit before stepping into the room. Because the people, I think what makes us carry the responsibility is the people-pleasing aspect in us. And I think many facilitators, well, there is a reason why we self-selected into this profession. And I believe that at the end of the day, we're all trying to solve our own problems.

Yeah.

And I think that many facilitators struggle with people pleasing, me included. And that's something that we have to work on and get rid of because it's not our responsibility. Yeah.

And I think for me, I even had a different, a different challenge in that people pleasing, I don't mind if people aren't loving what's going on as long as we get the result that we need. I can live with that. Um, my issue or my trigger is I really want to be excellent at what I do.

Mm.

And for the longest time— and I'm okay with it now— but for the longest time, my identity was tied up with being an excellent facilitator. And so if something ever happened where someone might view that I was no longer an excellent facilitator, that was like Oh, I just want to like prove that they were wrong. I was excellent. Like, I was, you know, there's that. And so to your point, we need to clear our own shit because that, that need to always be excellent isn't helpful. Because in any sort of feedback that comes back perhaps suggesting otherwise becomes really like a wound to the soul.

Yeah, yeah.

So yeah, clearing our own, being mindful of what triggers us and working through that is, oh, so critical.

Yeah, yeah. And the excellence is, um, we cannot control it.

Yeah.

And so yeah, this resonates a lot, this kind of perfectionism, and then we become forceful. And it's very difficult to remain generous, um, when we're actually seeking the excellence, because then suddenly we make it about us instead of about them.

100%. Yeah, 100%. And that has been, I guess, in my journey as a facilitator, recognizing that there will be times when I am not being the best version of myself Because I've been triggered by something that's happened in the room, recognizing that that will happen, and then having a plan to work through that has probably been the single most useful thing I've learned over the time. Because everything else is kind of nuts and bolts, but that stuff requires hard inner work.

Yeah, yeah. And that's the, that's the real work of facilitation, right? The activities we can learn, the processes, the methods, but the standing in the fire, feeling triggered and not leaning in, not getting carried away with it.

Yeah, 100%.

When you think of your facilitation work after so many years, what remains your facilitation challenge? Or is it related?

I think this is a challenge that— it's not a remaining of a challenge, but it's a new challenge for me. So I, I love, Miriam, how you've created such a safe space. And I realize there's going to be thousands of people listening, and I'm just going to put it out there anyway. Um, hearing menopause is kicking my butt in terms of energy. And so my challenge at the moment with facilitation is this massive change in my energy levels that I have little control over because it's just my season of life. And being able to bring that energy to the room when I just don't have it, that's something I'm really being challenged by currently.

Um, thank you for sharing that, and I'm sure that so many relate to that. Either because they're in a similar cycle of life or they're suffering with other internal issues of either hormones or mental issues that are stronger than us, stronger than our willpower, that we cannot control.

And I've had to accept that where in the past I might have facilitated a workshop and one city and got on a plane and flown to the next and then had a day with no workshop and then flown to the next and completely be fine with that. I've just had to accept that for this season, that's— I don't have the capacity for that kind of work. And it goes right back to what we were talking about in the beginning and accepting that rather than doing it begrudgingly, just recognizing that that's just what this season will look like for a little while.

Yes. And it's beautiful how it goes full circle back to where we started. It's the acceptance. It's— I hear self-compassion as well. Like, oh, my body needs me now more than the group. I first need to hold myself and take care of myself and listen to the signs. And I also think it relates to what we said, what you said in the beginning, Charging. We've at some point hopefully then don't need to work that hard. Maybe you don't need to deliver a workshop every single day, but to be more mindful who are the clients, how much work is healthy and good, charging accordingly.

That's so very true. And when I think back to when I first started and I was first charging clients Well, clearly my rates now are far and away from what they were. And so that is the case. The more experience you have, the more reputation you gain with clients, the more referrals you're getting. So you're not having to hustle for things. I'm a big believer of put your rates up a little bit every year.

Hmm.

Just keep putting them up and then nobody notices. It's the McDonald's method, right? You don't notice that a hamburger used to be 95 cents, and it's now $6 or whatever it is because they put it up a little bit every year. And it's the same with our rates, I think, as facilitators. Just keep putting it up a little bit every year, and then like you say, we get to a point where you don't have to work as often to still be earning a healthy income. Yeah.

And I wonder whether actually our work gets— as we're working through our own things. I have the impression that we also can go deeper with groups faster, so the work is actually going deeper. It's more emotionally— it's more emotional to some extent. So we also cannot just deliver all these workshops as if we were in a factory.

Yeah, I agree. It's, uh, the deep work that you do with groups You are not separate to. You carry that, right? Or I carry that. And that can be emotionally exhausting.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so having space to download that and/or work through that in whatever way works for you is critical. Otherwise, you take that emotion into the next group.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

So What do you do in order to take care of yourself? And also with your— with the menopause now kicking in, new phase of life, also new experiences, how do you deal with that practically?

Um, if I'm completely honest, last year I didn't deal well with it at all. I got to the end of last year, so end of 2024, and I was completely and utterly burnt out. So this year I'm being really intentional. So I've started seeing a therapist. I'm not suggesting every facilitator needs to see a therapist, but I've found that seeing someone outside of my inner circle where I can just let go of whatever it is, and there's no agenda, and we're not working on a specific thing, it's not about business, it's just about wherever I'm at, has been a game changer. So I started that near the end of last year. And also this year, I'm being really mindful of— my word for the year is joy, and I'm being really mindful of bringing joy into my life every day. And sometimes that requires a little bit of silliness just to get laughing.

Thank you. And And yeah, seeing a therapist or a life coach, I think, in our work is so important. I totally agree.

And I think changing that perspective that you only see a therapist or a life coach or a counselor when things are bad and you're broken and you need fixing, like, that needs to change.

Yes.

Like, it's not a sign of weakness, it's a sign of just creating a space for yourself that you can't really get in any other way. Like, it's separate to family or friends or your inner circle, and there's a little bit of power that comes with that. There's a little bit of magic.

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's— it requires and it gives self-awareness to have. And I think too, so I've been working with coach, therapist, Since for years now. Also because I think there is— it's not a matter of being broken or not, but there are always things that nag us, that would trigger us. There's always, there's always healing.

Yeah.

That can be done. And to schedule in enterprise in this me time, this It's like going to the gym. It's like gym for the soul.

Oh, I love that. Gym for the soul. That's great.

Thank you for sharing that. What is it that you would have wished you had known before? What would be your advice to your younger self when you just started off the facilitation journey?

Um, don't be intimidated. And as kind of a subtext to that, just remain true to your own style. I remember vividly a conference where I was invited to come and run a breakout workshop and they had emailed me to say, could you send over your slide deck so that we can put it into the thing? And I went back and said, Oh, I don't use slides. I'm gonna use whiteboard and flip charts and da da da da da. And they said, "Well, how will you keep people engaged? You you need to have a slideshow." And that's hilarious. I know, right? And so we kind of went back that they were in a different country, and so we kind of went backwards forwards in email and me explaining why I wasn't going to use slides and them telling me why it was so important. Important to use slides. And in the end, I said, fine, I'll put together a slideshow. And honestly, it was the worst workshop. It was horrible because I was trying to use a tool in a way that just wasn't me. And in hindsight, like afterwards, I thought about it and I thought the reason they invited me was because they had heard about me from someone else. who obviously enjoyed what I was doing and referred me. And they enjoyed what I was doing, which was me. It wasn't using slideshows. And so the very reason they invited me actually got stuffed up because they wanted me to sort of conform to their way of doing something. So that was the first and last time that I said yes to doing something in a way that That I wouldn't normally do it.

And I, I love that. If someone has referred you, if a client reaches out because they want to work with you, it's so important to keep that confidence and to remind ourselves and them, okay, you would— you wanted to work with me and that's why we're doing it. Um, yeah, and it can be intimidating. Especially when we are— and I think that's another side of the facilitation. We often feel so privileged to be able to do this work that then we're like, I won't complain, I won't impose my rules, I don't want to make it difficult. But sometimes—

And I think part of that is that often the people inviting you to do something, do a workshop, don't properly understand what is possible. And so they have this preconceived idea of what a workshop looks like or is supposed to look like based on what they have experienced in the past. And they, they don't know what they don't know. They don't know that actually you could have people standing around the room tossing balls of string because they've never seen that happen before. They don't know. And so if we don't say to them, hey, look, in order to get the best possible experience from this group, I need XYZ, then we're actually robbing them of an opportunity to get this great experience.

Yeah, yeah.

And at the end of the day, they might go, well, we have to do XYZ, and then we get to make a call. We will work within that, or we can refer you to someone else who will work within that. But we've got to give them the opportunity. We need to, I guess, bring to their attention that there's another way of doing Yeah.

In other ways, they wouldn't have reached out in the first place. If they're hiring an external expert, it's usually for a reason. Yeah. Correct. Yeah, not being intimidated. And equally also not being intimidated. So what comes to my mind when I hear that, and I think it's excellent advice, when we see other facilitators, how they do it, they're so great how they do it, and then There's a little voice, oh, we have to be like them. And then it's a similar trap as you just explained, just it's a self-made one that suddenly we start having slides just because they did, or we start doing things that don't come natural to us.

That is so true. And that's one of the things that I say in our facilitation training. I'll say to newer facilitators, you don't have to facilitate like me. You have to facilitate like you, like, because you know that, that old saying around you can be the best peach in the world and there'll be some people who don't like peaches. Well, it's the same with facilitators, right? Like, I might be loved by loads of people, but there will still be clients who are like, oh, you are not the right facilitator for me. And that's fine because there'll be someone else who is.

Yeah.

But you've got to be the best version of you, not the best version of someone else.

Yeah, and then it makes it easy. It saves us energy and it makes— yeah, it makes it easy for everyone, for the client and for us.

And well, it makes it easy for the client to know what they're getting too. Like, I've got a friend who I've known for decades, and for reasons beyond me, whenever she introduces me to people, she'll say, this is Kerry. She's the loud one. And I've always had this low-level kind of irritation, like, of all the amazing things I've done in my life, the fact that I'm loud, that's what you're going to leave with? And I've always kind of had this low-level irritation, never enough to say anything, but, you know, kind of, why that? Until I got an email from someone once that said, uh, you've been recommended to us as a facilitator because you're really loud, and you'll be able to wrangle a rowdy bunch of blokes who like to banter. And I, I was like, yes, that's me, I'm the loud one. And so what I knew at that moment is that they were approaching me because of who I was, not in spite of who I was. And it really allowed me to lean into that in that particular session because that was the very reason they had asked me to come.

I love that so much. And it— because it, it comes back to the words someone uses and how we might interpret it differently. So if the loud one was a sticky on the wall, you would feel irritated without understanding, oh, that's a feature, that's something that can be of value. And it reminds me of with Thomas Landahl, I worked on facilitation signatures. What is the attribute? What is the signature? What is the thing that people would hire you for? And yeah, instead of hiding and feeling self-conscious about it, yeah, I can fill a room with my presence and my voice and I, they will hear me and understand me. And that's great. It's something to be proud of and to embrace. Love that.

Yeah, be the best version of you.

Yeah, it's like a mic-dropping moment. Be the best version of you. Thank you so much, Kerry.

It's been such a pleasure.

What a rich conversation.

Miriam, you have an amazing way of creating a safe and intimate space, even while I'm aware that there will be Many, many, many people who hear this conversation. So you have a real gift.

Thank you. Thank you. And I really appreciated this conversation and all the aspects we have, yeah, touched upon.

Right.

Thank you for staying tuned and for listening until the very end. I hope that you found the inspiration and the wisdom that you are looking for. And I hope that you will subscribe to the show so that you never miss any of the interviews with another inspiring facilitator from across the world. I'm devoted to continue this podcast and to deliver weekly an episode that maintains the quality that you expect and you deserve. And if you would like to help me to maintain this quality and to keep the podcast free, Please help us visit workshops.work/support to make a small donation to keep the podcast free. Thank you so much. I hope to be in your ears next week.