326 - When Leaders Listen: The Shift Towards Facilitative Leadership with Rob Lion

What does it take to make workshops work? And how can we facilitate collaboration that sticks and leads to results? My name is Miriam Hadnes, and with the Workshops Work podcast, I'm on the mission to find the magic ingredients that make workshops work. Today with me on the show is Rob Leon. And we speak about leadership and facilitation and how facilitation skills empower and enable and magnify today's leaders. So stay tuned. And don't forget to scroll to the show notes to find links for more information and to subscribe to the show if you enjoy it. Thank you for listening. Bob, welcome to the show.

Good morning, good evening. Good morning to me, right? But good evening to you. How are you?

I'm good. And I just had to bite my tongue so that we don't already go into the juicy bits of the conversation before we hit the record button. So I'm excited because I think we both have a passion for facilitation and leadership and the intersection of the two and what it really means. And yeah, so I'm curious, and I always start at the beginning. When did you start calling yourself a facilitator? And actually, do you?

That's a great question. Do I? Yes, I do now for sure, because I really try to make sure it's clear what I do and where some of my strengths are. When did I? Probably earlier on in my leadership career and my research and professorship that I really recognized that my role as the instructor was not just to shovel information at people, but to actually step back, put some pieces out in front of the group, and let them make sense out of it. In fact, one of my mentors— if I can tell you a quick story— one of my mentors got pulled into a workshop many years ago, and he shared this with me as I was kind of maturing and trying to learn all this stuff. And, and I worked under him in a master's of psychology program when I was teaching. And, uh, he says, I had a colleague that had a training contract with an airline company. And he said, the facilitator's out sick. I need you to show up and go facilitate this. And it was airline safety with pilots and the stewards and stewardesses and the flight attendants. And he said, I don't know anything about airplanes. Like, I've been on some, but that's about it. He said, here's the thing. This is all you need to know about facilitation. And this was really a basic retelling of a story. So both you and I know there's more to facilitation than this. But it was such a kind of a formative experience for me to hear the story from someone I really looked up to. So his mentor said, you go in there, you have people with maybe 100 years collective experience in flight safety. You're just helping them uncover the topics, the content. You lead them in directions, you pull them back.

Mm-hmm.

You make sure people have shared space. right, to provide their opinions and thoughts. And you're just, you facilitate it. You are not a teacher or a trainer of airline safety.

Yeah.

You are a facilitator. And so I shared that because that was so profound to me. And it lines right up with like the concepts of andragogy, right? In terms of helping adults make sense of experiences based off of their experiences. And After I heard that, that's when my mind started to really shift into more, look, the value here, because I don't teach children, teach adults, working professionals, that they need to make sense out of it through their own lens. I'm the carrier. It's like me with a wheelbarrow full of content, models, frameworks, theories. My job is almost like decorating a cake, putting the pieces together so it's presentable to them, so it looks desirable to them and let them make sense out of it. That's so, you know, kind of a roundabout way to answer your question. So I've been— I see myself as a facilitator because it really is what really makes a difference, I think, in interactions, whether that's among a couple of people, among a community, among a class, among an organization. And it does something I think is magical, is it creates space if you do it well. People, so voices are heard, even the quietest ones. But also it, um, provides safety for the group because a good facilitator also is mindful of, say, disruptors or people that take up too much airtime and kind of bringing them back around in a very kind and gentle manner, not to make them embarrassed in front of the group.

Yeah. Yeah, and I love the anecdote you shared about the flight safety and the knowledge because it just showed the absurdity that we think that we have to be experts while all the experts are in the group. Why would they need our opinion on top of that, or our knowledge?

That's the least they need. A great summary and synthesis of that. Thank you.

And we sometimes forget. And we were speaking about leadership as we connected and in our exploration call. And I wonder to what extent leaders sometimes tap into the same mistake that they believe that they need so much content knowledge. Instead of trusting the group and opening the space.

Absolutely, right? And I think a part of that is out of a lack of awareness, right? So how do we do what we do, right? If we think back to whether it's teaching, leading, it's usually through our experiences of how we acquired those knowledge bits, right? So as a teacher, we often take the parts that we were, you know, the methodologies we were experienced are accustomed to, keep the good, get rid of the bad, hopefully, hopefully not follow the same mistakes. Same thing with being a leader. I think there's a lot of that unless we raise a certain level of self-awareness, start to reflect upon what it is we're doing, what it is our role. But how do we do that without even so much as mentorship? Like, I think about even just that experience I shared with you. When would I have arrived at that? You know, how old would I have been? I was probably 24 when I learned that lesson, and I'm double that now. Um, so, you know, it was such a formative experience for me. But if I don't have someone in my life to help me with those things, I don't have leaders that help me kind of get out of my head, how do I lead? And I think a lot of the answer relates to what do people see in media? What if they experience themselves, but they think they should know, right? I think there's a lot of internal pressure that, look, someone's believed in me enough to make me a leader, which I appreciate, but I better do a good job. And until we explain to them, you don't have to know all the answers, you just know how to resource them and find them, how would they know that? And so, I think that's where a lot of people— and I know we spend a lot of time with our clients talking about that. You don't need to know everything.

Yeah.

Your team has a lot of wisdom that you can leverage. But it's OK to say, great question. I'll get back to you within 24 hours with the best answer possible because I have a hunch, but I don't want to lead you astray. And I think that's a sign of a real responsible leader as it relates to that. Because until we move into that space, we are going to try to control and manage things. And as adults, we kind of have a nasty habit at times being controlling. And I don't mean controlling over other people, but some people more than others are really planners. And I say planner equals controller. It's a gentler term, I think, planner. But there's a rigidity to it. And if we haven't acknowledged some of that in our leadership journey, I don't think we're as malleable or flexible to kind of roll with the questions and the obstacles and realize that we have support both above and below us. We have talent above and below us that we could really leverage to bring into the conversation. And to me, you know, good work to you because this is bringing me right to a facilitation framework here, is that now that's shifting us into the role of a facilitator from that controller, from that steerer, from that manager, from that traffic director, because we realize that there might not be absolute answers.

Yeah.

There might not be absolute truths and that it's okay that we can create the meaning of this ourselves out of this group. And if I don't, and if there are absolute truths and I don't know them, then I have to figure it out. But it's a really good question on your part because it really makes me think that when does that shift occur in terms of humility as a leader that I don't have to answer all these myself? I don't need to be the— And I think about the certain industries that people get promoted through, and we work with a variety of these, that when they were in the seats below that leadership seat, they were really the expert, but they got promoted and the industry's changed. And so they're no longer content experts. They see the world from a bigger point of view. I think IT's a great example of that and software engineering. Those are really changing. So it's important to realize that just because you're the leader, you might not be the smartest person in the room. Yeah.

And then there's so much to unpack there. What came up for me is the different motivations that can drive the behavior of leading with too much content and believing that a leader has to have the answers. I think one is the example early on, if we are insecure, then the higher the insecurity, the more we want to cover up and pretend that we have all the answers and not let anyone doubt.

Yes.

So that's basically the sharing or controlling planning out of imposter syndrome.

I agree.

And the other one, I think, is out of pure passion and excitement. So if we know so much and we have made all the mistakes, then we get excited about sharing it. We don't want others to make the same mistakes, and then it can overpower the group and bore them. So I think— but in both cases, it's detrimental to the group. And that's, I think, where then the facilitation skills or mindset comes in with how much do I have to share and when and by which motivation.

Yeah. And even on that concept of motivation, because I just finished— I'm wrapping up a course on that right now— that sharing out of your wisdom well, let's call that, if it's not welcome, if it's not invited, it's been found to demotivate others. Right? So because it's imposing as opposed to aligning or facilitative. And so there's even more reason for us to move into this facilitation mindset because just because I know the answer doesn't mean I have to be the person that speaks it. Yes.

Yeah. And just because we speak it doesn't mean that someone hears it or implements it.

Well, that's a great point because, as you know, things coming from leaders at times, direct information, sometimes doesn't land on the team. But when someone else besides them says, hey, what about this? Should we do this? And all of a sudden, it's like, yeah, that's a great idea. I think about it in terms of my kids, right? How many times do I have to tell them something? And then all of a sudden, the girlfriend's like, hey, let's start learning Spanish together. And then all of a sudden, they're into it, even though we had been talking about it for years, right? So, just different fun nuances of human behavior.

Yeah, and the push and the pull factors. If I'm pushing information on you, um, then it's talking at you and it's an act of power. But if, uh, you're pulling information out of me because you're curious, um, yeah, it's a very different also dialogue.

Yes.

Which then leads to the leading through questions and creating curiosity.

If I can, the thing that just came to my mind also as we talk about this tension between this really rigid leadership versus this bringing people along, or the concept of elicitation, right? People want to participate. People want to talk. Sometimes they don't have the confidence, so we need to build them up a little bit. But people want to talk. And so if someone's out there thinking, hey, I want to be a facilitator. I'm a little nervous. I'm not sure. Going back to the example I gave with my mentor, Jim, people are really happy to speak up and share. And it just, to me, it makes that concept of leading and facilitation that much easier once you recognize that, at least in our kind of Western individualistic societies, right? The collectivist, it's a little bit different. It's tainted differently, but people want to bring forth ideas to contribute. They want to feel like they're a part of something. At least that's their motivation when they start the job, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah. That was one study that really stood out for me. It was Teresa Amabile's progress principle, that the biggest motivator for people at work is a sense of meaningful progress. So if they can contribute and see that they are making progress and contributing to this progress. Then they will show up and be active.

Absolutely.

And still there are cultures where this phrase that you mentioned, oh, let me get back to you, I don't have the answer right now, yeah, um, is not appreciated. And I just read a study where they found that actually authenticity in many corporations is actually punished. So the big title was, what if authenticity, the big promise of authenticity actually backfires? It made my heart bleed.

Well, I think it speaks to also, you know, the concept of authenticity is related to sharing and openness. But we need to be strategic and strategic sharing that The worry about authenticity being an overextension is it creates maybe some doubt in some people's minds or lack of confidence in terms of how that happens. At least that's my position on it. I think authenticity is so important, and it's such a powerful tool to bring people together. But if you're not from that group, it could be misread.

So how do we know?

What do we know as a facilitator or as a leader?

Is it different?

I think the kind of the answer is the same term in my mind is the situational awareness. Where am I? Who am I with? Are these my people? It's kind of like families. Families have their own vernacular, right? They talk to their co-family members and their children in certain ways that may not fly in other families.

Mm-hmm.

The terms and stuff like that. And the same thing is true in organizations, whether it's a facilitator. And this speaks to our obligation to do our homework, right? To know where we're coming in. And that's also partially, um, you know, pre-calls and sorting information and planning, but also trying to get a cultural read on it in terms of what are those dynamics and, you know, what am I walking into? Because sometimes, as you know, you're walking into something that They really need a lot of help and the leader's heart is in the right spot, but maybe the skills are just not there. And so we become part of the solution and there might be some dynamics we need to be aware of before we walk in. That's one of the reasons why I do certain activities on the front end and icebreakers or team builders that are just to get people talking to see what that room is going to feel like. Where's the warmth in that room? get a sense of the temperature of that room so I know how I can navigate my path forward. Is this going to be a cold, contentious group? What's the body language telling me versus, you know, warm, happy, giddy, excited, interested? And, and I think that's true for all environments, right? You could walk into— oh, where was I? Angie did a workshop last— a couple weeks ago where they just found out that half their staff is going to be So that has a certain energy to that group that she needs to be mindful of as a facilitator in order to connect and then bring that group along with them.

Yeah, which needs much more psychological safety and also maybe to recreate this social contract with the group. Is this workshop actually what you need right now? Do you have the headspace?

Yes. As well as—

Or is there something that needs to be dealt with first?

Well, I think that's a great point because that's what I was going to ask you. I know for me, we always leave it open that if we have to talk about something to work through something because it might be the bottleneck for us to move forward in this process, I'm happy to pause and let's have this conversation so that we move through that so that we can get back to where people need to be in terms of their headspace.

Yeah, I think otherwise it's like when we have unresolved conflict with someone and we meet them and have to talk about things, it's just, it doesn't work.

Yeah.

Because our mind is somewhere else and our reptile brain is telling us this is not safe. This is not safe.

Yeah.

So whatever.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I think that's why we do need the openness and mental flexibility.

Yeah.

And what came up to, um, regarding the authenticity in your question regarding leader versus facilitator was also the, um, a question of authority with which we come into the group. Because I think as a facilitator, we have a different set of authority in the sense that We are trusted with the process, and we have to be the courageous ones, maybe also to break some rules or to define new rules for this time that we have together. Whereas the leader has maybe stricter boundaries around what is permitted in the company culture.

Mm-hmm.

And therefore might not be able to lead with their full authenticity Um, that they wish for.

It's not easy, right? It really does speak to— and I love what you do, and I love the question about do you call yourself a facilitator and do you see yourself as one? Because there's a lot of trainers out there, there's a lot of tellers out there. Facilitation is really like a dance, right? It's like I took dancing classes once, and you know, you have the lead and the follow, and You move together with that group. And that's what skilled facilitators do. They move the group around and, as you mentioned, kind of move into spaces that leaders and organizations can't and pull back when they need to. And just mindful of the time and the climate in there.

Mm-hmm.

Reads the people.

Yeah.

Determine how are people reacting to certain comments and recognizing that people's personality and behavioral styles, some are more inclined to sit back and be quiet. But what's that person doing now when I— when the other group members are talking and their arms are crossing and they're sitting back now and they haven't said anything yet? I need to reach out to them and touch in with them to see what's going on, because what's going across their mind right now? Because they might need more time to reflect, but maybe I could help speed that up with them directly.

Yeah, and the dance analogy makes me think of Theory and practice. So you're, you're a professor, you're teaching at the university, so you're an academic, and you facilitate and work with professionals, leaders.

Yeah.

To what extent is facilitation something we can actually teach in the classroom?

Yeah, um, so I'll begin with this because your question is a little bit leading when we start talking about academics and students, right? Theory versus practice. And in my programs, I'm super fortunate that all of my students are working professionals. So there's no room for a lack of application. There's no room for a lack of practice, right? So the theories are what they are, but we spend a ton of space in gray, in the gray space, a ton of time in the gray space. I should say that better. A ton of time in the gray space because they know firsthand that certain things don't scale, certain things don't shift. It's great in concept and theory, however, in application. But I also recognize that they come in with a bias to some extent. And that bias is their own informed experiences based off of how they've cognitively reflected upon it. So there is automatically a willingness to accept certain things against their identity and their mental frameworks, as well as push other things back against their identity and mental frameworks.

Hmm.

And my goal— and I recognize this on the front end, and I even go as far as to say, if you think you already know the answer, let me know and I'll sign you out of this And you could take something else instead. Check your gut at the door, and I'm going to take you through a journey that will test your assumptions. But you have to trust me that, that where I'm going to take you will be a good space. It'll be safe. It'll be an integration of concepts, theories, and models, but with real-world applications and direct examples based on how we've seen this work. And how this doesn't work and how some of these concepts are nice in theory, but they're slow in practice or fast in practice, or they don't scale well in some instances. So we do spend a ton of time in that space of the gray, that what the goal here is, what does this look like for you in practice?

Yeah.

In your personal life as well as your professional life. And that's why all the assignments I do are based on personal, not cases. I don't use many cases because cases are too simplistic and too ambiguous. So we try to do more project work based off of clients. What's your client telling you? What's your organization experiencing? And how do you kind of set aside your assumptions? Take what I'm teaching you and feeding you to go through and analyze us.

So what do you think is the— or from your experience, what's the biggest misconception as they step in?

You know, I think the biggest misconception is that lens of what's tied to their heart in terms of good and bad, right? So what we really truly feel strongly about is really an influence of how we see the world. And people take an academic course or a program for a very specific reason if they're familiar with it. So let's just use the concept of training because we have some training courses and diagnosis courses and analysis courses. Lots of people want to train. Lots of people want to teach. It's an interesting phenomenon that people want to give back to others as well as I think feel a little bit of importance. So they're drawn to certain things, but To what extent is their preconceived notions overshadowing their openness to what it is we're going to talk about? And I accept that and I recognize that. And as I mentioned, I try to position that as it relates to what the information syllabus as well as let's move away from your gut. You know, I always tell the story about, you know, your gut and there's more gut research. But really, in my opinion, we seem to have a really favorable recollection of how our gut served us well. But we sure forget quickly how it hasn't served us well, how we dated someone even though our gut told us not to, and then that didn't work out. And we've forgotten about that, or how we made a bad decision even though our gut told us not to make that decision, but we've forgotten about that, things like that. So yeah, we try to balance that so that kind of opened them up so that they could be. more receptive.

So basically thinking with their full body, is this what you're saying?

Yeah, I would say that's a great way to put it. Thank you. So much quicker than I said it. But yeah, like, there's got to be a level of openness and surrender. Or you're just going to check the boxes. And that's what some people are there for too.

And I love and hate— I have a very strong love-hate relationship with the word surrender. Because, um, we're told to surrender so often.

Yeah.

And I think it's one of the most difficult things to do and to ask from someone who's used to be in control and who is used to be evaluated maybe, or appreciated by this control. So to surrender to The not knowing to the new experience. That's a big ask.

Yeah, it's powerful though. Super powerful, right? What can I control? What's going on? There's all sorts of things going on in all of our lives, right? Really, when you think about it, watch the news or not. But like, at the end of the day, what do I have control of? Basically, this like 3-foot circle around me. This is what I ultimately have control over. But I do like the point that there's also a negative side to this. And I'm curious to hear what your opinion is on that negative aspect of surrender.

For me, the pressure that comes with it. So, oh, just surrender to it. I'm like, for me, there is no just surrender. It requires a sense of safety.

Yeah. Oh yeah. And when does surrender become retreat?

Hmm. Yeah. Hmm. That's an interesting question. I think the feeling in good hands and that's safe to surrender and then to really give up control, to surrender to the unknown. There's nothing I can do. And then it's more of the trust.

I agree.

When we speak of control and planning, um, why do you think that is, that there are so many micromanagers out there?

Once again, I think it's they don't know. I'm sure they've received the feedback that they're micromanaging, but what does that truly mean to people? I do certain sessions with clients and I talk about good micromanagement, in fact, but that's based on situational factors. You know, if you're a new employee for me, you need a little bit more hands-on support and oversight than you being a veteran employee of 7 years that's fully competent. And so I think the challenge with micromanagement is baked into the fact that there's a lack of autonomy there, even though you're competent. And that's essentially the definition of micromanagement. But people, if they don't know what else, that's where we get into this facilitation space as opposed to management space as opposed to even delegating space. That— but how do we know this if we've never been taught this?

So if I understand you correctly, or at least that's what I'm just hearing, is that micromanagement could be a safety measure for someone who is lacking the facilitation or the coaching skills, the leadership skills that they might need. And then in order to feel valuable, they hang on to the content.

Yes.

And especially in the case that you mentioned earlier, if someone was promoted because they were the experts. So then it's— they know how to do the job.

Yeah.

So they want someone to do the job as they did it instead of giving them space to explore.

Well, why do we value so much— and I know this is kind of rhetorical also— but why do we value and prioritize so much content knowledge? In terms of like a degree. So degree mastery, whether it's a marketing person, an engineer, whatever it is to get the job. But that promotion level is not about a certain level of leadership acumen, knowledge, experience. And I think it is about— I think people chalk it up as experiences and time on task in many instances or longevity, but that is not equal. Um, skill, facilitation skills, leadership skill, leadership acumen, competence.

Is it because it's more difficult to measure? Because it's, it's easy to, to measure competence in terms of content. And yesterday I recorded a podcast with Parker and we spoke about authority and how authority Usually comes from content. You're a subject matter expert. But for facilitators, authority comes from more the being and the mastery of self.

Yeah.

And it's very difficult to put into a metric.

Unless we all got together and sat down and did it together, right? So at some level, that question— so the question you asked, it's probably easier to manage and measure content than it is this leadership stuff. Because we have what content outcomes look like by far and large for any trade and practice and craft, right? Those things exist for leadership. It's just once again, if you're not educated or skilled or knowledgeable in those frameworks, then that makes it very difficult to measure and determine. So I think part of it is that it's not that it doesn't exist, it does exist. It's just once again, we're so green and amateur collectively. we as leaders across the board. And I think there's a risk to part of this too, is that highlighting and celebrating people's leadership success, certainly from the outside looking in, may not be true in terms of are they really a good leader. So think about it in terms of we bring in a CEO from A company to speak at a conference we're having, and they're recognized kind of as, wow, that company's really growing, it's really successful, most popular place to work. Who's to say that they actually are good at what they do? How is that not a coincidence of the talent already within the system? And then you see this, right, when you talk to clients and you talk to the— if you do analysis and deep dives prior to your sessions, you learn that, well, this person isn't as effective as they are necessarily. So I think I kind of got us off on a tangent here, but to me, it's about this open-mindedness and fluidity to everything, that everyone is at different points in their journeys, and that's personal and professional knowledge and experience cognitively. And that, that's something we as facilitators and leaders need to be aware of, because if we start assuming other people were where we are, Hmm. Or understand what we're talking about. And think about you as a younger facilitator trying to get your feet under you, right? Me too. Think of yourself as a younger academic, right? Remember, you had ideas of theses and research in your mind and your heart, but you couldn't articulate it.

Still true.

It's a, yeah, it's a skill that we develop over time, and it really speaks to the, in my opinion, the value and the utility of really strong facilitators.

Um, and that's such an, that's such an important point. It really resonates, this space to, to articulate and to develop, because I think what I realize now with playing with AI and these AI-powered assistants such as ChatGPT that it's so easy to polish ideas so that they sound crisp and clear and forget about actually the idea that it's at its core.

Mm-hmm.

And I think the, the beauty of operating within academia is that we have the space to think and to articulate and to discuss about the ideas when they are not yet finished and when we haven't come to a conclusion yet. But this takes time and, and safety and courage, maybe.

Mm-hmm.

That might not often exist in the corporate space. And I think that's something that facilitators do. They create the space and time for groups to ruminate and explore and be unpolished.

Absolutely. To step away, right? We can't— I've said this several times to people— we can't afford not to take a pause because beautiful things happen when we step away from the office, when we get the team together. Maybe they're dressed down, lighthearted, having some fun, changing the stakes of the meeting, putting the phones away. So that there's a level of healing as well as movement that can occur a couple of times a year.

Hmm.

Because you're right, because corporate life does move faster than academic life, right? Think about how many years it takes us to get a curriculum changed and things like that. And it's just ridiculous that the real world is moving on. So how do we exist? And that's the big challenge, I think, for academics to move into this consulting or this business space is that how do you move into this real-time, fast-paced process and be relevant and kind of true to the people you're serving. It's not easy, and it's not for everyone.

And on the other hand, sometimes the corporate world just moves too fast and doesn't allow the pause. Because sometimes we realize, OK, if we actually wait for a bit and don't respond immediately, the problem is solved by itself, or the problem we try to solve is actually not the problem.

Yeah, yeah, great point.

And I think this is a facilitation skill that is maybe overlooked when it comes to the application to leadership, the slowing down.

Yeah, being curious, asking questions, bringing people in, right? When we bring people in, as I mentioned already, they want to talk. We increase their engagement. We can convert that engagement into buy-in, right? And, and different things happen, as opposed to us barking commands and telling people what to do and imposing decisions on them when they're very well capable of arriving at those conclusions or ideas or addressing the question themselves. We just shortcut it too often when we're in this very transactional leadership framework. And And when I say transactional, I talk about delegating. I think delegating has its place for newer leaders, green leaders that need to get their heads out of the weeds to see what's really going on and bring their team in to be a part of things. But delegating is not, in my opinion, a mature skill for leaders in the sense of, I think facilitation, we move out of, we outgrow delegation. It's like delegation's the training wheels of that young leader to help them start making headway so that they could start doing more leadership-oriented things. But at some point, we need to move beyond. We need to become more sophisticated than just delegating things to people. We need to align things with their interests, bring them into the conversation, slow down and stop talking at them. And integrating them, being that facilitator of the solutions. Because based on a whole bunch of different science, right, we know that we move into that facilitation as the leader skill, we're going to increase engagement. And that's why we've built the model around that. We also know that if we minimize delegation, we have more likely higher levels of intrinsic, higher quality intrinsic motivation among people because we're aligning and cultivating We're not telling them what to do. So there's all these things that is a part of this leadership maturation that I don't know what's beyond facilitation in terms of that maturation continuum. But I really do see that delegation's really at that early end. And we move into, as we become more sophisticated leaders, that facilitation is really what it is about to be a leader of high impact. Because your people have the skills to solve a lot of things. They just need a coordinator in many instances, or someone to help them sequence things and think things through.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think the biggest roadblock is then, is it fear of being irrelevant, or is it just a lack of time and pause? The problem with moving from delegation to facilitation, basically instead of saying, this is what you have to do, where every time the task is done, they have to come back for the next one. And facilitation is, okay, this is the big picture, figure out how to do it.

Yeah.

That describing the big picture, first I need to know the big picture, then I need to be able to actually put it into words, into frameworks that someone else is able to understand. And I have to create the space where this other person feels safe enough to ask questions if they don't understand. So delegation is so much faster.

I know, right? It sounds so daunting. I had a client, I had the potential, I was doing a screening with a client, a potential client, and we went through all his personality assessments and stuff and talked about how we would use this with his team. He's like, there's just so much information here. What do I do with all this? I'm like, well, are you suggesting it's better not to know all this stuff and just carry on with what you're doing? Because I don't think that's working out well for you. But okay, so I do want to respond to what you just said because this is a common question of, I'm exhausted now at what you're telling me I have to do to be this better leader. This other way sounds easier. But there's something that's really beautiful that happens. And to me, I think of it like the roller coaster. When you're doing that facilitation, it's that tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. It's the heavy lift going up the track. But once you integrate that into your culture as a cultural practice, that roller coaster is going to go down the hill and just take off. That those people are going to source information for themselves differently because they're learning self-reliance.

Mm-hmm.

And peer reliance, as opposed to leader reliance, right? You move from this, like, I'm the leader, I'm the power-over person, to I'm the power-with, or I'm going to give you the power to help solve these solutions. We just need to make that conversion. And that's what that tick, tick, tick, tick up is, that eventually the other side of this is that once you've done this and your team leans into it— and because you were talking about this, that purpose and that progress is really important. That's what occurs in this. process, then they also become more invested in the process, right? They're more engaged. Then they also have higher levels of accountability towards each other as opposed to the leader, right? If the leader's the person that doles out the delegation, that leader is most likely the person that has to dole out the consequences.

Mm-hmm.

As opposed to the peers saying, hey, you're kind of slowing us down. Can you step this up? Or what's getting in the way? How can we help you? As opposed to pulling in that leader, great things are going to happen. But you're right, it's a major shift in mindset, practice, and understanding to get here. But the rewards are amazing. And you build a tight culture that has resilience, that also recognizes that we source information in this group. It's not all based on me. And then also, if I could get off track a little bit, Then we hire and we make a bad hire on the team. That's a disruptor. We have a greater level of kind of inertia already within our culture to overcome it and to right that bad hire to fit the team. To me, it's a really beautiful thing that's happening when the teams are all leaning in, they have momentum, they have identity. And I tell people, I say, you know, you're one bad hire away from your system being challenged. So what are we doing to future-proof it in that aspect so that, so that, that, that person that comes in that might be a little squeaky against the rest of the team can either integrate or exit? But it's because the team's a part of that solution, whether or not they even know that.

Yeah, and that's a very important point, right? If the— because if culture is not there, then it's one bed higher and There goes psychological safety and everything that a leader might want to build, but they don't have the critical mass.

Yeah, think about people you've engaged with in the past that are kind of like, oh, we're good, we don't need assistance. And you're like, I heard otherwise from some of the team members, you do. And you don't share that necessarily, but you're like, no, no, no, no, we're good, we're good, things are working out well. And it really is like, are things working out well for this team? Because of the leader or because of the dynamics of the team. Sometimes we just get really fortunate that we have a great team that's motivated, that's supportive, it's collegial. And the leader is just a person that's in a role that may or may not be influencing the overall success of the team.

Mm-hmm.

But so it's just, it's, to me, there's no absolutes, right? And that's kind of where we've been all over the place here is that There's so many questions that, going back to facilitation, we have to be flexible. We have to have different tools, tactics, perspectives, practices, levels of awareness and openness so that we could connect better with people, whether it is as that facilitator or as that leader.

Yeah. And I think the only way to go is to experience the benefits of it. Um, because once— I think once we've been in a meeting, workshop, training that was well facilitated, where connection was over content, then you cannot unsee it anymore.

Yeah.

And I, and I wonder how to get to the next stage instead of preaching to the converted.

Right.

It's so easy because I have the impression that in, in our, in our spheres, yes, we all agree this is what the, the organizations need, what the managers need is facilitation skills. There was a big wave of the leader as a coach and lots of money being invested in making leaders coaches. And I think there was some pushback. In the terms of, I never signed up to be a coach. I'm not here to listen to the feelings of my team. What would it take to shift that to the leader as a facilitator? And is there actually a chance?

Yeah, I wonder if the intention wasn't to be the leader as the facilitator, but they used the coach inappropriately. Right. So I really have pulled away from coaching, the concept of coaching, the language of coaching. I do much more advising and dialoguing as opposed to, so tell me how you might react differently next time. Right. To me, that takes time and we could have that same conversation in different manners and move forward quicker. And I think that's where Coaching, to some extent, coaching is super valuable under the right conditions, just like anything else. Any intervention is super valuable under the right conditions.

So what would be the equivalent of a facilitative conversation?

Yeah, that's a great question. I think involving people in the solution. And, and that's not to say that that's what coaching wants to do, right? But Coaching to me feels— there's a level of buy-in. This is all just my opinion. There's a level of buy-in for a mentor and a protégé that I don't experience with coaching and coachee. But facilitator shares a similar spirit as that mentor to protégé. But the problem with mentors is that they often don't know what they're supposed to do. So there's a level of psychological commitment. in facilitation to an outcome because it's in the best interest of the individual and us as a team and us collectively. But I think coaching is a little bit too linear and maybe not as— like, there's a pencil line, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, that goes to team. But now we're just splitting hairs over definitions here. But I think part of the problem is that coaching is a little too squishy to people. And it's been diluted a lot. And you look on LinkedIn, everyone's a coach, right? And so I understand the reason for the pushback on it. But the facilitator, I think, embodies something maybe a little bit different. I see the role of the facilitator being concerned with the outcome overall as it relates personally and to the team and to the individual.

Mm-hmm.

So the coaching framework has more— Outcome for that individual and not as personally, which doesn't mean that was the case or that was the intention. It's just, it's, it's lost in definitions and how we define things differently.

Yeah. Right.

And how people react to things. Coaching has really evolved and become a very popular term. And as we know, anything that becomes popular has various sides of perspectives to it. Maybe it's a good thing facilitation hasn't become popular.

I think it is becoming more and more popular. It is, and we need to. Yeah. And we're using coaching tools. And I agree that what I heard from what you shared is that the coach is some sort more detached. So the coach is there to ask questions for introspection. And the facilitator and the mentor are more involved, maybe also being more vulnerable themselves by modeling the behavior and offering advice. That's more of the mentor.

Yeah, I think that's great. Because that's one of the things that we try to scale back when we're coaching is integrating my own opinions and beliefs. And at some level— and that doesn't mean that doesn't happen in coaching. I know it does. But at some level, if you have— if you're really low on experience in something, you don't necessarily even have the ability to form an opinion or an idea around it. So me, as your leader, can help you approximate that by sharing my perspective, my opinion, my impression to at least give you cues towards how you might start to formulate your belief. And you might just model what I say, which is a risk, but it's also helping you get— it's almost like—

Yeah.

Building scaffolding, right? Bringing you from one point to the next. And I'm providing that scaffolding to help you get there in a way that meets your needs.

Yeah.

And maybe that's even part of it. What is the nature of coaching? And what is the quality of the bidirectional conversation coaching versus the quality of the bidirectional conversation facilitation?

Yeah. Yeah. And I wonder whether— Back then, when the leader as a coach became the big thing, maybe it was because they didn't know that facilitation existed. Because I don't see leaders asking all these questions to their employees and team members for their personal development, but it's rather for their— how can they make the team work? And then, yes, the leader needs to ask questions and to listen. Um, but for a different goal.

Yeah.

Than the pure personal development.

I think part of it is marketing. Let's grab onto this concept of coaching, which actually has been historically used well by high-performing people. And let's, let's use the marketing of that term to say we could do it at a lower level, at a different level. But we've lost maybe some expertise in building that transfer. Someone comes up with a neat term, people jump on it. Facebook became Meta. I don't know how many other Meta companies blew up the same month, right? So, and it's just, I'm getting us a little off track here, I think. But my point is, is that sometimes the language just doesn't help us.

Yeah, yeah. Sometimes it liberates and sometimes it locks us up.

Yeah, yeah.

What is the biggest breakthrough that you observe in your, let's call them students, although they are adults and professionals? Aha.

Uh, okay. Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. Keep going. Keep going. Keep, tell me more. Tell me more. Lead me a little bit further with this question.

Um, what's their biggest breakthrough as they go through your training? So they, they learn it, they integrate it, and then what becomes possible and what is the, maybe the mindset shift or what is the What do they have to let go of?

Ego. Their belief that what they know is truth. This is a good question, well-timed. This morning I was reading their reflections, and we're in exam week this week, and so their last reflections as it related to the Course, and all of them said, I thought I had this figured out day one. I knew what the answer was going to be. And I thought it would be pretty easy to go through this, and this course was daunting. It really slowed me down in terms of testing my tendencies to jump to my own conclusions as opposed to following the maps and the processes and the models so that I arrive where I should arrive. And they all arrive somewhere different. Like day 1, I should do this. I should do a little pre-assessment versus post-assessment of what do you think the interventions are for these organizations that are your clients? Based on day 1. And I know what most of their answers are going to be— coaching and training. And then, because that's what they know, that's the limits of their language and then part of their experiences. But come the end, they're like, oh, wow, we need to do job redesign. We need to improve ergonomics. We need to build a system of accountability and feedback in a much more higher quality. And let's take that further. We need to do accountability better.

Yeah.

But we also need to build the skills of the leaders to do accountability better. And so they've become much more nuanced. And that to me is the real— that's what tells me it's worth it, is that we're doing the right thing. And that's what that outcome looks like at the end.

I love that you speak about accountability because I think that's one of the big buzzwords. Everyone speaks about accountability. Also, facilitators come in and they say, okay, the group has to be accountable. We have to build accountability. at the end so that something happens on Monday morning. What are we getting wrong about accountability, and how can we really establish it?

One of my favorite topics. So, as I mentioned, at the beginning of all my sessions, I do some sort of team-oriented conversation. Let's just get people warmed up. Icebreaker, team builder, whatever. Not very touchy-feely. I'm not that kind of person. Much more dreamy in nature. I knew why I was being brought into this group because of a lack of accountability, that the performance was not where it needed to be across the board in the vast majority of people. And they're not holding each other accountable. I started the workshop off with a values exercise, individual values exercise. We had about 95 cards on the table of different values. Everyone collects theirs. Reflects upon them, refines their stacks, has conversations, stuff like that. Over 3 quarters of the group, in their top 5 values, accountability was a factor. That's what they believe. That's what their values are. And I ended up writing a blog on this because I've never thought about this before. Do we have the skills to live according to our values?

Hmm.

Isn't that something like, to me, it was like, We've never talked about this. I've never heard anyone talk about this. And think about whatever that value might be for anyone. Do they have the skills? Because at some level it's just cognitive, right? Or psychoemotional or whatever. And so that resulted in the blog, but it also, you know, and then it gets into skill capacity building because feedback and accountability are crucial. It's the biggest thing that's affecting organizations as far as I'm concerned right now. And it will always be because people— there's too many factors about ego, niceties, fear, all these different things that get in the way of, you know, having a genuine, loving conversation to say, I really value you and you really need to know this. And this is what happened and this is why. But I'll tell you before we jump into your comments, this is where I think facilitation, the skill of Builds conversational capacity with people in a much deeper level so that it's easier for us to have these ongoing drips of feedback and accountability conversations, both positive and negative, positive or constructive, because we're talking. We're in this together. And to me, that's the goal. That's the goal is to move that leader into that more facilitative role where there's regular one-on-ones or regular interactions that we— Purposefully put drips, and I use the language drips of feedback into things, both feedback up to me as well as down to them. And the more frequently we do this, the kinder it becomes, the less surprises there are, the safer your employees feel because they don't feel like they're going to be reprimanded.

Hmm.

So, to me, it's the long game of accountability because The short game of it seems a little scary. It seems like I have to have a difficult conversation with you, and I don't want you not to like me as much. And I don't want— or, or we golf on the weekend together, and I don't want to make that awkward. Or, you know, all these different things. But a lot of these things are fear-based self-talk that we are convincing ourselves based out of our own— fears and that I shouldn't do this. Whereas on the other end of it, if you're doing something wrong in work, I believe this, we all have this desire and motivation to fix things if someone was kind enough to bring it to our attention of ways to improve it, ways to shift, ways to change, ways to do the job better in accordance with the expectations of the team or the leadership.

Yeah. And it's, um, I love the, the provocation. Do we have the skills to live up to our values? And accountability has so many sub-values, actually, because accountability without transparency— what are we actually held accountable to? How do we measure it? How do we know that roles and responsibility And then feedback comes, then to have the feedback conversations. But in order to have that, we need so much more information to actually have that. And then otherwise accountability just becomes the finger to point at people that they must be accountable.

Yeah.

But if they don't have the resources or the capacity or the ability To do that.

It's easy for me to tell you, you need to be accountable to us or this team or this initiative. But once again, let's go right where we started. We don't know what we don't know. So let's even start with the term accountability. What does that truly mean for us in our dialogue, right? And what does that look like in this team? How does that relate to our expectations and, you know, rules of engagement, decorum, and all these different things? So it's no wonder why there's so much opportunity and need and work to be done because even us or even my program that has leadership courses, we're just scraping the surface and we're just getting started and we're not getting into this in much detail because this is, you know, those are master's and undergraduate courses, not doctoral research and thought leadership types of courses. And so there's no wonder we struggle with this. But we need to do better. We can do better. And I think if there's no other motivation, it's for the people we work with to do better. Because I think really when you facilitate and you're this conductor and you bring them along, really wonderful things happen. But people really have space to grow, to become who they are, who they're meant to be, to flourish on more of a humanistic level. And do a great job and hit your performance objectives of the organization, right? We try to make it really clear. I got really sensitive this last couple of months that we're perceived too much as a culture or culture types of consultant. And I'm reeling back because where I all started was performance, but culture became a part of the kind of grease in the system to make the performance more attainable. But it really is like, Our number one objective at the end of the day, in my opinion, is the performance of the organization, group, whatever that is at hand. But we don't have to— it's not just performance or culture. Like, it's— we could have both. And in fact, I believe that if we do both well, and whenever we prioritize one over the other, we get off track.

Yeah, and I think, well, without performance, there is no company. I mean, a company is a private company because they want to make money. And they make money because they create value for someone who's willing to spend that money. And I think without culture, there is, in the long run, a lack of performance.

Yeah, you might grind through the people and get the performance out of them, but you probably won't retain them, or their well-being is not going to be well, good.

Well, I'm currently writing a book. I try to write a book on professionalism. What is your— and I'm just curious from your different perspectives of working with these leaders— what is the role of corporate professionalism in all of that?

Where was I this week? Last week, this came up in a session recently. Really wrestle with this. Oh, we were doing a community event last Thursday at a brewery talking about employee engagement and community development, and this came up. That's a tough one. I think without having a definition and a checklist of maybe behaviors tied to what a professional is, it's hard to really make any headway on this conversation. And even that checklist would be informed by whomever. created its bias, right? What I wrestle with is how, how some people, and this is not to be a slight towards anyone, I go to work to get the job done so I don't have to be at work anymore.

Hmm.

Versus I believe that I bring value to this organization, or at least myself, and I'm getting better because of this. And I'm committed to my own self-development as well as my development as it relates to this organization. organization. It's a really slippery concept, in my opinion. I don't know if you've encountered that at all, but I have a real hard time because you see people that— and there's all these different conversations around the person that's there 30 minutes before the office opens, ends there 30 minutes after the office closes. Are they more professional? Well, no. They might just like being there as opposed to being home and everything in between, right? Someone that doesn't need a whole lot of time, like our veterans on our teams, many I mean, like veteran employees, like the most senior levels, they're so good at their work, they don't need 8 hours a day. And that's partially why they cause problems in some instances, is because they have too much free time. So how do we integrate them into other things to add further value to their life and to the organization? But yeah, what a slippery concept that is, professional. What is professional in the corporate environment?

And what I hear is that at its core, it has to do with Integrity and commitment to the work and to the value you deliver.

I'd also add the word intention. What's the vector? What's the direction of that intention? And I haven't thought that through too much further beyond that, but is my intention to add value, to your point, to this organization, or is my intention to extract value, my own?

Taking advantage.

Purpose. Yeah. And not in a nefarious or negative way, but yeah, what a tough concept. Thank you.

I was curious. What I find fascinating is the concept of looking professional, being professional, and then as you said in the beginning that it depends on how it's defined and expected in the different circumstances and how often then it's more about appearing professional. than really committing to these, to the pure form of professionalism, which has to do with integrity.

Let me ask you this. How often do you hear people talk about professionalism? And I think about it in terms of one of these concepts that we're wrestling with, our, you know, quote unquote generational workers. Are we having these conversations on the front end? And part of it's professionalism, part of it's expectations. Are we setting people up, regardless of what generation they're from? How are we doing at setting people up to integrate well into this job? And what does that look like when they might not understand the language, but they might have to look at behaviors?

Yes, and how does it relate to the framework of delegation versus facilitation? Because speaking about professionalism in the context of Delegation means do it this way, that's professional. In the context of facilitation is maybe it's less about the form, maybe it's less about the how, but it's about the outcome, leaving more space for the individual to explore their own—

Bring their authentic self in and influence what that looks like for them. Yeah, conversations we don't have, right, too often. I find that One of our biggest deficiencies right now as it relates to organizations is onboarding and doing a good job of culturally specific. And I don't mean like, I mean culture as in our organizational culture and team cultures specific onboarding. You know, we spend, onboarding spends a lot of time on policies, handbooks, benefits, and that is stuff When a new hire's biggest concern is to be accepted in the workplace, that other stuff is just noise. And they might need to know when their dental coverage starts so they can get that done because that's a pressing issue for them. But I think for most employees, you know, learning about things in an onboarding session, there's a lot of information that, that they're kind of firehose fed. that is of lesser urgency, lesser importance than kind of socialization and integration into the team and the organization.

And it's, yeah, it's interesting because if I have a connection to, if I understand the organization, how it works, if I understand its culture and some key colleagues, then I know whom to ask if I don't know the process and procedure.

Yeah.

So I can either spend the time on learning where to find it myself and what's written in there, or I can learn about the shortcut and what actually really matters, what it all boils down to.

It's like becoming resourceful.

First order principles.

Yeah. Becoming resourceful and how to, and just think about the lesson there that how to find solutions within a system. Giving them at least enough insight and comfort to feel like they can take that step. But that's facilitation again, in my opinion.

I was about to say that. Yeah.

Right? It's that shift in terms of being along with them in the journey and giving them the right support as they need it based on their needs. But also, I talk about the concept of challenge and support. If you're not familiar with it, it's a theory that a gentleman rolled out, I think, in the '50s. I talk about it with my people as a rubber band. So in order to move you into a flow state or just enjoy your work, you need to have the appropriate level of challenge and the appropriate level of support so it becomes meaningful. But if we put— if we take a rubber band We put too much challenge on it, we stretch it too hard, what happens? It fails. It breaks. Take a rubber band and we don't put enough on it, what happens? It fails. It doesn't break, but it doesn't work. And so it's that same type of thing in terms of how do we negotiate that within ourselves as we're working with that other person to determine what is it that you need today versus tomorrow versus in the future, now versus later on. What's urgent? What's— we can get to that later.

Yeah. Yeah. Also to retain the talent. Losing talent is the most costly thing a company can do. What is it that you would advise your younger self? What is it what you wished you had known before?

I've received this question a number of times, and I keep coming back to the same answer. What would I change? I don't know if I'd change anything because so many of the things that were blunders that I would have liked to have had off have become such instrumental learning experiences, such formative experiences that I'm who I am today, better than I might have been otherwise if I would have gotten the cue earlier. And it's just, you know, there's things I wish I would have done differently, different schools, different experiences, travel more, getting into that now in my life. And I just love it. And I wish I would have done it. Earlier in my life and do more of it. But that's okay. I'll get to it. I'm in a good space. I'm very fortunate that I teach in a program that is a little bit reflective of how I consult. And I get to bring the good and the bad to both environments. And so I get to do both. So I don't regret any, you know, interesting that you heard regret.

And I find it interesting that you heard regret.

I know that since that came out.

Because for me, it's rather, okay, so what would you tell your younger self?

Yeah. And, you know, that really slid out because, because I don't like— and what would I tell my younger self? I don't know if I'd tell him anything. As, as a scholar in the motivation space now, and as a parent of 2 boys that are in high school, there's so much influence I have, but so little influence I have. And part of it's just the evolution of human development. And I think if I had to pick one, it'd be get out and see the world more. But as you know, you have certain needs at certain points in your life, and it's hard to see these other things when other needs are more present. Yeah, good question though.

Last question. Okay, the standard ones. What remains your facilitation challenge?

Yeah, that's a good one. Just newness, variety. How can I show up different for this group this time, especially when They've had me a lot over time, over years. Most of our engagements are partnerships with organizations year after year after year or every quarter. And my biggest challenge is my biggest fear, and it's becoming redundant or boring or—

Hmm.

Right, not being what they need. But that's also pressure on me to make sure that I'm growing, becoming kinder, More engaged, more integrated, de-armored, open, and talking less and asking more questions despite how much I talked today. Right. But that's, it's just continuing.

Yeah.

It's just continuing to be relevant. And I don't have fears of not being relevant because I think if I run the course with the company or group, or a person, and I can't be there for them in the way they need me anymore, it's time to move on. It's time to graduate, essentially. But it is, uh, it is a great place to be when you're, you're working alongside these groups to really— and you're seeing the change, and you want to continue to be a part of it.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Is there anything that you wanted to share that we didn't— that you didn't have the opportunity to?

No, not really. I think this was such a great conversation. It was an exercise for me to explore, you know, thinking out loud essentially as you asked good questions and provided your perspective. I really do, and I mentioned this to you before we even started today, I really do, the more time I'm spending in this space as it relates to facilitation, the more clear it's becoming that this is the future of leadership. In order for us to do what we need to do, we need this, this needs to be added to the competency list of What it means to be a leader, but that at the same time, we need to work on developing what does that look like in that domain, in that structure, under those conditions, as opposed to what you and I do so much of is come in, be the authority, or at least be the communication expert in that environment, and then leave. How do we— how do we— what do those targets look like for those leaders? How do we build them? build the capacity for those.

Thank you.

Thank you for your time.

Thank you for sharing and exploring.

I loved it. It was great.

And I will put all the links to get in touch with you and find out about you and your company and your services in the show notes.

Thank you so very much. Thank you.

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