333 - Facilitating with Fabric, Feeling, and Freedom with Paula Short

What does it take to make workshops work? And how can we facilitate collaboration that sticks and leads to results? My name is Miriam Hadnes, and with the Workshops Work podcast, I'm on the mission to find the magic ingredients that make workshops work. Today with me on the show is Paula Short, and we speak about her way to bring expressive art into group therapy. And the forces of self-expression, trust, and personal transformation you may release, or she can release, with the use of costumes and other artifacts. So stay tuned. And don't forget to scroll down to the show notes to find the links to more information, how to reach out to Paula, and how to subscribe to this podcast. If you like it. Thank you for listening. Hello, Paula. Welcome to the show.

Hello, Myriam. Thank you for having me. What privilege.

I'm very, very excited and very curious about your work. I've heard many great things. Waving fans out there.

Thank you.

And, uh, yeah, exploring what there is about costumes and the hard work and—

Okay.

And I always start at the beginning with the same question. When did you start calling yourself a facilitator? And actually, do you?

Yes, I do, but I didn't always. So my background is in theater, and in that context, I would have used director. That would have been the, you know, the lingo. And of course, there is a lot of direction involved in theater, but as I look at that now, I would definitely see it as facilitation because it's about bringing out the best in your group and you're wanting them to bring their own individual flavor and talents to whatever they're doing and how we're trying to help a group to gel and work together, to support each other, to trust each other in a theater context. So there's a massive amount of facilitation going on in there as well. But it was when I trained as a therapist and then working with groups, particularly in a therapeutic space, that I would use the word facilitation and facilitator.

And what a change of mindset I think you need to go from directing, where you have, where there is kind of a value judgment and a quality judgment, to facilitation, especially therapy, where there is no Right or wrong, where you have to be totally open-minded in order to create that safe space.

Yeah. And I think for a long time, I didn't see a connection between the two roles or two arenas. But actually, in the theater, I would love acting. And I'm a very good actress, actually. And I think it's because I can quite quickly get inside the skin of a character and deeply feel it. So I'm not actually acting, I'm I'm being, I'm feeling some, you know, this character. And I think that's what being a therapist is all about, you know, it's about being able to get inside somebody's skin and be with them and feel with them. So actually, there's quite a strong link in terms of my being anyway, in those roles. But you're right, as a director, a very different approach.

And then I can only imagine that the goal is then not to get carried away with it.

In a therapeutic space?

Yeah.

Yeah, although I don't find that a challenge because it's very much about the other, you know, the person who's at the center of this little piece of work. It's their— they're the director, if you like, of this piece of work. So within a group context, I'm very, very mindful of letting this person bring what they want and need to bring and what they're ready to bring. And would say to anybody else who's part of this within a group that we must all be very, very gentle. It's not that we can't contribute, but that we acknowledge that it's this person's work, so there might be a no in that for us.

Mm-hmm.

We might say, would it be useful to try? Or would like to try it? Or does this sound— could I? We have to be very comfortable with, no, that's not right for me, you know.

Boundaries, yeah.

That's good.

Yeah, and something that doesn't come easy to everyone. I mean, it took me almost 40 years to learn to set boundaries and communicate them and feel them.

Yeah. So actually, like if I was doing a retreat for a few days, Quite early on, we'd all practice our no. Can we all just say no a few times? And would you like to do that? No, I don't want to. And no, and no. And can we say it this way and that way? And just literally physically finding our voice with saying no, and that it's absolutely okay. And anytime through these few days, if anybody doesn't want to do something or doesn't feel right or whatever, absolutely, it's welcome. It's not now an issue. It's not a, oh, can I say? It's, wow, great, you said no, brilliant.

Yeah. And once we— it's so funny how much judgment there is around the word no and assumptions, because very often we appreciate someone saying no because it clearly states it, it makes the yes come out stronger.

Yes.

And also gives us some direction. And then we can trust that everything we'll do is Okay, and if it's not, we'll hear no, and then it's fine as well.

Yeah, so it's a huge, like you said, trust. That's really a key part of feeling that with somebody when you know they're being real and honest. And yeah.

Yeah.

Love that.

So I find your journey fascinating. And funny enough, I had quite a few guests on the show who went from theater to facilitation.

Oh, how interesting.

Yeah. So it seems to be a thing.

Yes.

And I wonder what, what you're bringing from your experience as a director in theater to your work as a facilitator. What have you learned there also about group dynamics and characters?

Yeah. And sort of a related thing is for a long time I wanted to keep them separate. It felt for me like they shouldn't connect, and I think I was worried that theater work would become too serious, too heavy. And so, yeah, there was a sort of desire to keep them separate. I need to explore that more as to why that was, but now I feel like there's this obvious connection between the two and would celebrate Even as they stand separately, it's like this work in the theater is so good for people's mental health. I work a lot with young people in that arena, and to see how it helps them with their mental health, even though that isn't the focus.

What do you mean by that? Can you give an example?

Well, the examples are with what parents have said, that my child might not be alive But for their youth theater experiences, like, wow, you know, this helped somebody through a really difficult teenage years, difficult as we know. And for somebody to feel a sense of belonging in the theater community, to feel a sense of being respected and trusted, to feel like they can be themselves here. And, you know, there's so much going on In terms of group dynamics, that's sort of interwoven into a theatre space that's so good for mental health.

And I would like to double-click on what you just said, that they can be themselves, because I think there's a big misconception there that if you're in a theatre space, you're playing a role, so you're not yourself. That's really interesting.

Yeah, that sounds like a contradiction, doesn't it? So I suppose that's again about facilitation, isn't it? Because it's not actually the role piece that we're focusing on now. It's you as a human being and how you are held in this space and how we're working together. And you showing up as your real self is just gorgeous. And we're loving that and embracing that and how to bring that then to a role or whatever character we're playing. So that would be the feedback through the years. I founded a youth theater in 1997, so we're coming up to our 30th anniversary. So we have even the children now of our previous students. So it's— I think one day we'll have grandchildren of students. But that's very powerful to look back on and see the impact that it has had on On people's lives. You know, I did, I did do a piece of research not long ago on the therapeutic value of theater for young people, even without overt psychotherapeutic focus. You know, it's like an aside, but super helpful.

And I wonder whether it also has to do with normalization of emotions, that you can test out how it feels and, oh, I can be angry on stage. just to try it out, even if I'm not angry myself, and see how it feels and how I deal with that and how others react. And suddenly it becomes more normal. So it's like a rehearsal that when we get really angry, we know how it feels, we know how we can express it.

Yes. And the other way around, like that it might, the anger might actually be there already, but unaccessed. And I would use my own example there. I remember as a young person, My parents had divorced, and it was my guidance teacher at school said, you must be really angry. I'm like, no, not at all.

No, not at all.

I don't get angry. I didn't feel anger. But give me a role where there's anger, and I was like, rawr! I could feel it, and I loved it, and I loved playing the villain. And wow. So it's like actually an opportunity to process what we might not— Know how to process in our real life.

Giving ourselves permission, basically.

Yeah. And a space where this can flow freely.

Yeah.

So improv work, I think that's so interesting what people come out with in improvisation.

Without thinking.

Yeah. Like, whoa, where did that come from?

I can relate to that.

Yes.

And is this something you would then use now in a group context? Where people might need the permission or the excuse to access emotions.

So it's just so interesting bringing, so I think I mentioned before, I would bring some costumes, some props to a psychotherapeutic retreat where we're, the focus usually is self-exploration through expressive arts. That's what I usually title retreats. So yeah, it's all about learning and exploring this way through expressive arts, which includes theater, drama, role play. I usually call it role play because if you say drama, it could terrify people, but we usually call it role play. Even that could terrify some people.

Yes.

But I would bring some costumes and some props. And what's so interesting now is as I pick up the toy sword. Now I feel something. Something is a bit different. I've got a weapon. I've got something to protect myself. What does it feel like to— suddenly people are accessing stuff that they may not have been able or not— different defenses might have got in the way. But now with this sword or with this cape and with this crown or with these things, It's like it just helps drop us down underneath the cognitive piece that might get in the way sometimes.

Fascinating. So it's the artifact, and then I think, I assume, all the assumptions, all the stories we are telling ourselves around this costume or artifact, or to what extent does this play a role? So how do we see the king? What's our relationship with power?

Yeah, so it's kind of interesting to see how the things get used in different ways. So for example, like you're saying, like a crown, the little crown that I usually take could get used in very, very different ways. It could be on a pillow and somebody wants it to be presented to them at the end of their piece of work. It's like a wow moment.

Mm-hmm.

For somebody else, it could be in their story. It could be Yeah, somebody in a position of authority that wasn't nice and wielded that authority in a negative way. Yeah. So it's what that thing means for this person and how these things, these costumes that are there and available, how could I use, or what could I use here to tell my story or to explore this piece of my story that feels like it wants my attention today?

Mm-hmm.

So I would usually encourage people to do a piece of self-reflection. First of all, what's coming up for me today? What would I like to focus on? And then show them all the things that are here, and is there anything here that would help you? And then that gets people usually quite excited as they go around and they're touching and feeling different things, or instruments. I'd have a whole pile of musical instruments there. What would it be like to bang a great big drum at this point, or ring a bell, blow a whistle, or would I like somebody else to do that? As I'm walking through this little thing that I'm doing, I'd like somebody to be banging a drum. I get so inspired by how people— it's like once you've unlocked the freedom to go there, what comes up then is just fab. And how people use things in a completely unique way. Nobody else could have guessed that. Nobody else could have scripted that, come up with that. It's their own piece. And it feels deeply a privilege to be part of such a creative work. It's creative and transformative for the person, and you're there part of it.

Yeah. And it sounds playful.

Yes. Loads of giggles happen. Sometimes people will even want a piece of music played at the end. So they're going to do this little piece of work and then they want to hear Dire Straits' Walk of Life or something. And you never blast that out and all dance about. It's just, and that's all part of their experience. I suppose that's what we haven't said is that this is a whole body experience. This is not just sat one-to-one in therapy. Obviously I'm a therapist. I think there's great value in sitting one-to-one with a therapist. And talking about things, but this is moving. This is feeling. This is giggling. This is crying. This is being with a group. This is a shared experience that's, it's unforgettable.

Yeah.

You know, totally unforgettable. Years later, you're gonna remember that, what that felt like to do that. And somebody played your mom and somebody played, you know, all these characters. It's, it's a whole body experience, has a durability. way beyond the retreat.

I can imagine because it's, from what I know, how we remember and how we build these synapses and moments. It's through the embodiment, it's through the visual, it's through emotions, and not only the talked word.

Yeah.

Spoken word. And so I hear the improv theater piece, and I also heard something that almost sounds like constellation work where If you ask someone else to play an instrument or to step into your scene.

Yeah. Yeah. So sometimes people will choose to observe, not even be themselves in their story. They'll ask, I might ask Myriam, could you, would you be me, play me in this? And I'd like you to be 6-year-old me. And could I ask you, so there's this thing happening and I might want to just stay on the outside. And that can be very powerful. You might even feel moved to cry in your role. You might. And I'm watching you be me. And so that's, yes, some people choose to do that. And it's still equally powerful because they're observing themselves and see what this is like. And, oh, you know, and other times people choose to be in it and they might choose to be their younger self.

Mm-hmm.

They might want to play themselves at age 12 or something, or it might be a very present exchange. Maybe I'm struggling with my relationship with my daughter at the moment, and I'd like you to be my daughter. So there are no limits to how the group can be used. Yeah.

And the way how I imagine that is You almost like Mary Poppins with this bag of tools and methods. I'm like, oh yes, I have this cello and I have this hat and I have constellation work and improv theater and I have therapy. And so that's what's happening in my mind. And then, yeah, I wonder, how do you bring— how do you plan for that? Because it sounds like a a blank canvas that depending who's stepping into this space will bring whatever their issues are that they need to bring. So how do you create this container where all of this can happen? And where also— that's maybe a sub-question, because what I observe is that there are so many meta skills needed, like expressing what it is that you need, expressing your emotions, feeling safe. Yeah.

Yeah. So I think 2 things, 2 key things. I think safety is paramount and how to create the container that you mentioned, how to create this space in such a way that people feel safe, totally psychologically safe, physically safe, in all the ways that they need to feel safe and held. So there's that piece. And then if we can get that right, Mm-hmm. Then I would hope there's room for absolute freedom. If this is right, I'm going to feel free enough to do and go wherever I want to go. And then I hope I have enough of the Mary Poppins bag of goodies that helps that, that they can play with. So I bring, again, bring clay, bring paints, bring collagey stuff, glitter and sparkles, and all sorts of things so that whatever feels useful to somebody in— and we, of course, there are exercises specifically inviting use of all those things, but as the weekend or the days go on, people start pulling from all of those resources.

So it's basically creating these small moments of introduction so that the objects don't feel alien, I was like, and to open the space of how they could be used, and then Creating familiarity.

Yeah, familiarity and safety. And I mean, obviously there's a lot packaged into how does somebody feel safe, but one of the things is knowing that there's no right and wrong way to do this. You know, that I would hear myself saying that so many times, you can't get this wrong, there's no right or wrong way. And I think that's probably one of the fears at the beginning or coming into a retreat, especially when people hear it's an expressive art, it's like, I'm not artistic and I'm not creative. I'm worried that they're not going to be good at this. And so quite quickly, for people to feel that actually, yeah, that's true, that there is no right or wrong way. And I love it when people do something completely outside the box, completely different, or yeah, they don't just vary it, they do the exact opposite. Love it. Love it. Somebody recently painted a picture by painting their face and then pressing their face against a page. I mean, wow, how gorgeous is that? Just, you know, I love that when you know that somebody's really in their process because of how outside of the box they are using this gear, you know.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's very beautiful. Beautiful.

Yeah, must be this moment of pride to see that you've created the space for the people to, to access that and to have the breakthroughs.

I don't know if I would say pride, but it's definitely a strong feeling in me. It's like a, oof, like just, yeah, I get pride, isn't it? Just pleased for them, excited for them, because you can see how, how much they're gaining from it.

Yeah.

And again, if it's a group role-play kind of scenario, oh, the rich feeling I get when you see other participants interacting with somebody and offering the most gorgeous support and saying things that's like, oh, that's so beautiful because now, because their experience is being touched, they're being moved. This person is— am I talking too fast?

No, it's fantastic.

Somebody's— their piece of work, they're doing something that's really powerful for them or sharing something deeply emotive for them. And it's somebody else in the group who is crying. And it's somebody else in the group who's outraged on their behalf. And now this experience that they've been carrying alone, Yeah. For maybe their whole life or for decades, and it's being witnessed by others, and the others are moved. And it's like you can't buy that. That's why group work is— I love it so much— is because for this one person who maybe has tried to share this and has been met with disbelief, or judgment or minimization is now being held and honored and validated by these people that maybe they only met this morning.

Yeah, to refine this way of self-expression. And yeah, I'm fascinated. I can see all of this just happening. And I've Different curiosities on different levels. One, you already mentioned the role of the group as opposed to the individual. So the role of being witnessed and what does it mean for the healing process? So what does it do inside of a human being when we are being witnessed expressing something that maybe we felt shameful about or— Or too sad or too angry to express it earlier.

Yeah, it's like gold, you know, it's liquid gold. It's just incredible because somebody could be carrying, I'm too much, I'm too broken, I'm too shameful, I'm too something, or this doesn't matter, or, you know, all sorts of beliefs that they're carrying inside. Of course, it's been absorbed from somewhere, but they're carrying it. And even, I would say, even in one-to-one therapy, there can be a layer of, yeah, but my therapist's just being nice. Therapist's just, you know, well, she's my therapist. And people can sort of minimize it a little bit, what they're receiving from their therapist.

Mm-hmm.

And yeah, and then suddenly there's this people, group of just normal people. They're not therapists, they're just normal people, very much in inverted commas there, and they get it. And they are with me in this and they feel it and they care and they are supportive. And so massive shifts internally come with that. That shame, I mean, you mentioned shame. Shame is like one of those pieces that's so tricky to access and so tricky to feel a shift in it. And that would be what I see happen in a group context because it's not just my therapist being nice. Yeah.

I can see that. And I would love to hear what becomes possible through that experience. So when they step out, and before that, maybe I can, I can see the importance of being trained as a therapist in that. And even the piece of you being trained as a theater director, what are maybe the risks or what happens Below the surface, what is the hard work that you are doing that make it feel so easy then for the participants that they're like, oh, this was magical. She didn't do much. And I had this transformation.

That's a good question. I suppose, well, loads of things are going on in my head. That piece around saying no at the beginning is really important. And when the group are offering suggestions or offering a hug or whatever it might be, how the group are interacting, I would say 97, 98% of the time, that's just all gorgeous and just, wow, fabulous. It's like they knew in that moment it was the right moment to say this. But occasionally, occasionally, it's like somebody offers something or pulls something in a particular direction that it's not this person now who's in charge of this. It's like somebody else is pulling and dragging a little bit this way. Then I might just intervene, and I think what I would instinctively do is offer the opposite.

And when you say it's not that person, do you mean it's part of the person, it's like a shadow, or it's really a different person who's suggesting?

A different person within the group. So maybe Miriam's the focus for this piece of work. This is your story, it's something you're exploring. And Dolores over here says, hey, what about if your dad did this?

Mm-hmm.

And maybe they're pulling it and dragging your story in a direction that you haven't led. This is not coming from you. And Yeah, so that might be part of my role to say, or maybe that does complete opposite. Myriam, what do you think? What do you think? So I would be balancing a little bit if I feel like somebody in the group is just pulling something. Does that make sense?

Yeah. So for me, what it sounds like is on the one hand, creating the space, the container for the group, and then protecting the individual space whenever it's Yes. And because there are some individuals who struggle to be in the center of attention and to protect their own space, and there are others who need more space or desire more space. So there is this tension where then I think for a non-skilled facilitator or therapist, this can very quickly then derive in a situation where the dominant participants are taking over and the people pleasers are just, oh, that's fine. I'm never angry. Yes. Yeah.

It's okay. And if somebody makes a suggestion, oh yeah, okay, we'll do that. Somebody who's very easily led might just go, oh yeah, yeah, that's okay. And is it really theirs? Is it what they want and feel? And, you know, what on the outside might not look like very much is happening, You know, this isn't a very exciting piece. There's nothing very, you know, but actually it's huge for them. It's huge. You know, this little, what looks like a little piece for them could be massive.

And I noticed that I'm getting goosebumps. Um, because what I imagine what can happen is this massive breakthrough or breakdown where suddenly someone notices That for their entire life, they have followed other people's desires and suggestions instead of taking time to think of what it is that they need themselves.

Yeah.

And then, yeah, they— I— what I associate is breakdowns, grieving, all of that. How do you create then space for these individual trajectories? Because there are potentially a lot of different emotions coming up in a group.

Absolutely.

That you have to all integrate or leave or—

Yeah, so the processing of that. So I'd have lots of opportunities woven through a day for journaling, which I think is great for people to be tracking what's coming up for them. Because even if, even when you're not the focus of a piece of work, if you are a participant in it, if I'm asked to play the villain, for example, in somebody else's piece, What's that bringing up for me? What's it like to shout? What's it like to, you know, where's that taking me and my story, even though I'm not the focus right now? So I'd be encouraging people to keep tracking that all the time. So even when you're not the focus, you're in process the whole time, the whole day. So, and yes, as a facilitator, you're mindful of that. And you can see when somebody is being You know, their story is being triggered from this other person's story. And that's why it's again very important that everybody can say no. If I asked you to be the villain in my story and I want you to shout and roar for a bit, that you could absolutely say, no, I don't feel comfortable doing that. You know, that's okay. And we move to somebody else. And I, as a facilitator, let people know I'm always happy to play the villain. Just so that they know there is somebody for that role if there is a villain in their story. But yeah, to answer your question, there can be massive material and emotions being accessed by people constantly through the day. And obviously abuse and trauma comes up, grief and loss comes up. I think my very first retreat that I facilitated was for a group of womb twin survivors. I don't know if you're familiar with that. So people like myself, somebody who was a twin in the womb and my twin didn't make it.

Yeah.

So that's pre-verbal, that's trauma and grief at a cellular level. So I've forgotten where I was going with that as an example.

Grief work.

Yeah. The depths of grief, grief, the depth of trauma work that can come up in this space, it is huge. And you do have to be mindful of the size of the group. I would have a maximum of 12 in a group because there's so much can come up and it's big stuff. It's typically, you know, people typically go to very painful places. And that sounds all very heavy. It also takes people to celebratory places. You know, great joy and relief and release and, you know, there's intense emotions throughout the time. I don't know if I've answered your question, but—

Yeah, yeah. And I—

would you—

would this be now something that you do, that there's always a context or a specific group you invite to the space so that you can limit the diversity of experiences that you're inviting?

It's definitely something that I have considered and do consider from time to time, like whether to make it specifically for womb twin survivors or for loss or for abuse survivors or something. But I haven't done that. Generally, they're open to all. And it's just so interesting then that there'll be a few people with a very shared experience and a few other people with something else. But of course, the human emotions underneath are shared, whatever the individual experience. So there's, everybody has loss in their life. Everybody has fear. Everybody has, you know, so that connection is there, even if the specific circumstances seem very different.

Yeah. And I can even imagine that it can be a trap if everyone has apparently a similar experience. Then we are too fast. We're thinking, oh, they are like us. Oh, I know exactly what you mean. Although it's the hurt and, and the emotions and the trauma is different for everyone. And if we have more distance, we don't expect to relate.

Yeah.

And then I'm more open to other experiences. Yes.

Yeah. You put that so nicely. As trainee therapists, it's Something that I would, as a tutor with a college, I was with a college for a while, it's something for trainee therapists to explore. And often they're questioning, do I have to have had the same experiences as my clients to work with them? And it's a great discussion that comes from it because exactly as you said, it could get in the way. It could absolutely get in the way because I'm making assumptions now about your experience. And even if I don't verbalize it quickly in my head, I've gone, oh yeah, yeah, I know, I know.

Filling in the blanks. Yeah, which is absolutely, it's an unconscious bias.

Yeah.

Often.

But not helpful, really not helpful. Yeah. So we remain more curious, more open and ready to try and understand what somebody else's experience is.

So how do you prepare the participants for the day after? Because it sounds like big healing work that might shift someone's behavior quite a lot. And then you step out to the real world, air quotes, and people know you how you have been, and now you might be different, and maybe you want to practice your new being.

Yeah, that's interesting. I think I would be more mindful of just the time needed for that absorption of what somebody has experienced. So through the workshop days themselves, they finish at 5, we have an evening meal at 6, finished half 6, 7 o'clock. I would encourage people to use their evenings for quiet time, journaling, walking. We're in West of Ireland, so there's lots of gorgeous places to Take a walk. So there's digesting through the evening. And then I would also encourage people in my booking info, if at all possible, have a quiet day the day after, because I think it's needed just for, again, integration of whatever's happened, that you're not going into work 9 o'clock the next morning. For me as well, that's been my learning curve, that I used to, you know, clients the next morning after, and then, whoa, this is, this is, you know, and so I give that to myself now as well, a day after for, because it's, it's full on. It's, yeah. And, and I'm, I'm changed. I'm being changed. I'm part of this experience. I'm learning and growing. So I need time for processing what, what it was like for me. So I think with And the journaling through the time as well. So all of those things are helping people be more comfortable with their own, with what they've explored and uncovered themselves before they're heading back into the day job. And I don't know that anybody would be going into their life quite as clear as you described it there, like, oh, I want to try this new thing. No, I don't think it's quite like that. I think Because it's very internal. It's like something is shifting. I am a bit different in myself. Something has changed in here that I'm just bringing with me, as opposed to, oh, I want to try something different.

So more embodied than cognitive.

Yeah.

Than the head.

I think so. Yeah. So, but I do think the space afterwards is really important if people can give themselves that. Not everybody can because they've taken time off of work. You know, they've carved out just the 3 days, let's say, for a retreat, and they are back into family and whatever.

I think I somehow asked the question before, but I want to reiterate. What are the risks in doing this work? Because I can imagine someone might listen to that and be like, oh, I try that. Let me bring some costumes and let me open the people. What are the risks involved in such a process?

Yeah. When you say try that, you mean try it in the, in the space?

Yeah. Hmm.

Okay. So I think we haven't really talked about like how to set up the safety. The safe— this, if I get the safety piece right, I think those risks are dramatically reduced. So of course, confidentiality is a key part of making it Safe. We have a discussion about that. We talk about that, concerns about that, you know, so it's aired. Even though somebody recently said to me, I never really believe it at the beginning, you know, because it's like people that you— I don't know these people and they're saying, oh yeah, this is confidential. How do I know whether they mean that? How do I know? But it's aired. We've had it. It's been said. So it's going in somewhere, even if I don't trust it yet, you know.

And also just to acknowledge that, okay, we might not trust it yet, but at least we'll find out. We need these people. Yeah.

And now once then somebody starts using that space and being a little bit vulnerable, now I can maybe trust it a little bit more because I didn't know her before and she said she's going to keep it confidential. She's actually sharing something now quite vulnerable. Okay. So Maybe I can trust it. So there's confidentiality. The piece we mentioned earlier about that you can't get it, there's no right or wrongs in this. That's also part of somebody starting to feel safe. You know, there's no expectation, there's no have-tos. Your no is welcome. Everything's an invitation. All of that helps create safety. I don't know if I said this already about all emotions being welcome. So your anger is welcome, your tears are welcome, your giggles are welcome. And again, these are just words, but once somebody sees that that is real, somebody's crying and it's okay.

And what I imagine Is what you might not even see yourself is your reaction to all of that. So to, if there are tears, that you can hold the space for these tears and not get carried away or judging it. Because if you would start even unconsciously judging, the group would sense it.

Yeah.

I think your work as a therapist, that is your inner work, but not visible to anyone.

Yeah.

Might also contribute. Because if you had, if you still had issues with anger and someone would suddenly freely express their anger, it might trigger something in you.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So I've had to do that work. Yes. That it is, that it's genuinely welcome. Like celebrated actually. It's so easy to say all emotions are welcome, but to actually live it, feel it. Yeah. There's this thing I talk about sometimes, issues with tissues. And it's, again, right at the beginning, we talk about issues with tissues and you can see people like really confused. What does that mean? It's because when somebody cries, typically somebody hands them the box of tissues and coming from a very good place, of course, but for the person, it can feel like, stop crying now, mop it all up. That's enough now. Stop that.

Yeah.

We don't really want that. That's how it could feel for them. So we have boxes of tissues, of course, everywhere, very accessible. But the discussion is let the person, if they're reaching for a tissue, of course, help them reach the box.

Yeah.

But not to be offering them because of the message that it might give. So, and it sounds such a funny thing to talk about issues with tissues, but it is exactly as you're saying that you're We're really demonstrating that it's welcome and it's not something to be fixed. We haven't got to fix the tears and we haven't got to fix the anger. It's brilliant. It's wonderful. And as people see that, how those emotions are welcomed and absolutely okay, not just okay, but celebrated.

Mm-hmm.

Now they're feeling they can trust that and they can use it themselves and that it's going to be okay to be who they are and access what they want.

Yeah. And what I find so fascinating, almost magic in these group contexts, is that whoever is the first one, the first courageous one, breaking the silence, maybe getting a little bit more vulnerable or showing their real emotions, does something to the group.

Absolutely.

And then suddenly, and they create actually the safety because it's something That you cannot, you can invite to, but you cannot do for them.

Yeah.

They have to do the heavy lifting.

Yeah, that's so true. And that one person who does sort of, as you say, be vulnerable first, it's so honored by the group. And that's what's just fabulous is some, that almost, I can't think of a time when that isn't referenced later in a day that somebody says, I'm so Thankful that Myriam cried. Thank you so much for that, and you were so brave, and you were so— And so this one person is actually literally being celebrated for their vulnerability. It's beautiful. Yeah, it's like they become the catalyst for so much more.

Yeah. And do you think it's because it seems so difficult in that moment and so We are fearful of going first. Do you think it's the fear of being judged and witnessed, or is it the fear of admitting us towards ourselves that is usually holding us back?

I don't know. Could be either. Could be both. Probably elements of both. But fear of, I, in my experience, people feel safe quite quickly.

Yeah.

And I don't know all the factors that make that happen. I think there's lots of physical, the physical space, lots of factors, but people do seem to feel safe quite quickly. And then to see how that's held by a group and nobody's walked out, nobody's outraged, nobody's like, oh my goodness, this person's too much for me, to see how It actually just pulls people closer and connected people who've never met each other before. And typically by lunchtime, it's like they're, oof, super close. So quite quickly we're getting past that fear of, will I be judged? Will I be too much?

Mm-hmm.

But yeah, the layers, the internal layers as to whether, how to admit that to myself, that's Much more complicated. I think that's why one of the reasons why I love group work and creative methods, because you're getting past the thinking parts and the layers up here and suddenly you're feeling something. You know, it's like a little fast track and without the cognitive. Yeah.

And I can almost imagine how if the crown came up or the cape and then coming back home and having a little image or a little crown myself. To kind of just as a reminder.

That's so nice you're saying that. Yeah, I have loads and loads of gear that I take. We have a studio at home with tens of thousands of costumes and thousands and thousands of props. So I can take a whole pile of things and I do. And some of it's deeply precious, some of it isn't even mine. So for example, I take my husband's teddy bear that's like 52 years old and my own teddy bear. So there's some things that are very precious and I wouldn't part But there's lots of things there that if it's become a treasure for somebody through those few days, and you can see that happens sometimes, you know, this little thing, a shell, this little stone, this little teddy bear that's become a precious piece of their process, they've used it through a piece of work, it's really lovely to let them take it home.

I didn't even think of that. I was more thinking of a representation or something like that. Yeah. As a nudge.

As a nudge, yeah. And of course, they're taking their pieces of clay home and their pieces of artwork home. So they, yeah, they usually go, go with a few.

How long are your retreats?

3 days. 3 days, yeah. So, and the plan, a very loose overview of it, and I would say this to people, it's very, very fluid, but typically first day is the present. So where am I at? What's coming up for me today? What wants my attention today? You know, all of that is the general focus, day 1. Day 2 is the past. What to revisit, what, uh, like rewriting the ending of a story or something in the past. Well, in the past, it could include yesterday, of course, you know, so it doesn't have to be childhood, but, and then the 3rd day is the future. So what am I taking with me? What are my resources? So it's preparing people for going back to the real world. It's very loose because of course the past and the present come into all of— the past and the future and the present come into all of the days. But it helps give a little bit of, again, safety really, that people are hearing that on day 1, that we're just looking at what's here in the present. That feels kind of safe. And then second day, the invitation to go into some older material if they want to, and knowing that day 3, we're going to be thinking about how we move forward with all of this. So even that framework gives a little bit of structure and safety.

It's beautiful. And I recorded an episode about Um, using psychedelics and plant medicine in workshops and retreats. And what I'm now thinking of is how our brain can produce all of these substances itself, that we don't necessarily need the mushrooms or the LSD to, to access all of that and the playfulness, but sometimes maybe just a costume.

That's so interesting you said that, because somebody has compared my retreats to the closest thing to a psychedelic experience without, without a substance.

That's, yeah, that, that's what I heard from your explanation. And I think that's also why I made the assumption of these breakthrough experiences that you then take home, that you're a different person because it's—

Yeah.

Yeah. So I stopped drinking alcohol in January. And since then, I'm, I'm just looking around and, um, curious of how the role of alcohol that plays in society and also for numbing. Um, and so I'm curious, do you serve alcohol during your retreats?

That's a really good question.

I don't.

And, um, the reason for it is because I don't know if this is true everywhere in the world, but in Ireland, there's quite a history with alcohol misuse, a history and a present. So for a lot of participants, alcohol has been a negative part of their childhood experience. I do bring as a prop, I bring an empty bottle.

Mm-hmm.

And it gets used a lot. You know, it gets used a lot. People want to enact a story from their childhood. Maybe there was an alcoholic father. My own father was an alcoholic. They might just use that bottle. It becomes a symbol of a whole package of their story. So for me then to serve alcohol at lunch or at dinner, and I'm not wanting to condemn alcohol at all, but the way it can still be joked about and people can joke about, when you break it down, they're actually joking about the misuse of alcohol.

Mm-hmm.

This seems like a very inappropriate environment for that to happen. So it's just easier for me to not, not have that.

I would have assumed that and would be surprised if your answer would have been different, but I'm glad. Um, because I, I haven't even thought of the, the relationship and the potential trauma related to it, but also the How easy it is to then tuck it away, drink it away, to have excuses to say something, um, or how to digest all the, all the emotions. Because I think many of us, me included, I've been socialized to, oh, big emotions, oh, have a drink.

Yeah.

Have a second one and then everything is fine again. And after such a a day of hard work and being raw and vulnerable and then kind of, yeah, messing up with all the beautiful work you've done in your brain of rewiring.

Actually, pity. Yeah. And that's part of the process, the ongoing process of living with the difficult and facing and shining, shining lights on what's in there and what we're carrying. And yeah, it's not easy work, but it's beautiful work. It's illuminating, it's growthful, it's great, but it's not easy. So yes, I can see how somebody might just, you know, a glass of wine would just soften that all out, but you would be minimizing the growth that can come from it.

Yeah.

So for 2 major reasons, it's Not ideal.

Do you, or would you work with teams or with groups who know each other already? And if so, what's the difference?

Yes. So sometimes if a group are in a training together, maybe training to be therapists, training to be craniosacral therapists or something, you know, they, they're looking for an experience like this that's growthful, but also integrative as a group. I think it's— I don't know how to compare them really. In some ways, there's an advantage that they know each other already, so they're not coming into a group of strangers. And at the same time, the flip side of that could be useful, that coming into a group of strangers, nobody knows who I am, I can just be myself. So, There's pros and cons, but I don't think it makes a massive difference because I would still do exactly the same things around safety at the beginning and the container for the work.

Yeah.

I suppose if that group coming in, if there were people within that group coming in who have an existing conflict or an underlying issue that I'm not aware of, I haven't— I'm not aware that that has happened. But I'm thinking about it now, I'm thinking that potentially could interrupt their experience of it and feeling safe in it. I don't know that that has happened.

And then I can see that, I can imagine the trained therapists coming in. They're also, they're wearing 2 hats. So they're coming in as participants doing their own work, but also looking at the process from a meta level.

Yeah, that's a, that is a real challenge, I think, for trainee therapists. Even in the one-to-one therapy, sometimes you hear a trainee therapist like, I want to try CBT, and I want to try psychodynamic, and I want to try Gestalt therapy. And they're going to different therapists to see how that therapist works.

Mm-hmm.

It's like, that's not therapy. You're not in therapy if you're just sat there thinking about how this person is working. Now you're not having your own You know, you're not damning your own process. So equally in this, you know, in a retreat environment, I would be disappointed if somebody stayed in that very heady place where they're observing.

Yeah, it can be a protection.

Yeah, absolutely.

I'm not part of that. I'm just here to observe.

I'm just learning how to do this.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So I would be disappointed if that if that happened, that they didn't feel like— I would love to do one of my retreats. I would be so excited to go into that space and just feel like, can play and all of this stuff and be held and trust that the group is held. When I've attended different things, sometimes I haven't felt safe enough to be my full self because I think I might be too much for the facilitator. And I'm also, if I'm too much for the facilitator, who's minding the group? You know, so there's all these layers going on. I would really hope that people coming into my space feel absolutely that they want to do this.

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's, that's indeed the, the flip side. If we know what we're doing in these kind of spaces and then attending other retreats, seeing the small glitches of not feeling safe, of Or where a promise is not held strongly. Um, yeah, I've experienced that. And then it's very difficult to actually come back and to fully lean in.

Yeah. For example, if nobody's mentioned confidentiality, it hasn't even been mentioned because, and maybe it's because there's an assumption, of course it's confidential, but it hasn't been mentioned. It hasn't been made explicit. Our brain knows that our brain is like, it's Is it? Is it? Or what time are the breaks going to be? Or is anybody going to walk through with tea and coffee at some time? Or if you're in a hotel or something in a corporate setting, how do we know this is safe? It does need to be said out loud what all these little practical boundaries are. And we feel it. We feel, okay, somebody's got this. Somebody's minding me.

Yeah, and I thought of that. And yeah, because otherwise it will at some point pop up and then just occupy our brains.

Yeah.

Or hold back the tears because what if someone steps in?

Yeah, yeah. Even think— even silly things like, where are the bathrooms? You know, like knowing where they are and that that's been explained and we all know. It's like our body is okay, that's fine, I I can relax. So there's some water there and all of these little things, they're all part of knowing that somebody's got us. Somebody's got us and the group.

Yeah, it's almost like Maslow. Take care of the basic needs so that we can attune to the higher needs.

Definitely. Yeah, if you don't know those basic things are covered, why on earth would you trust that you can Access your shame. So, all very important.

What remains your facilitation challenge?

My oldest wounds remain my facilitation challenge, you know. So, um, I think we touched on it a little bit earlier. Yes, I was talking about anger and my, my childhood wounds are around not wanting to, uh, be disliked, not wanting to make a mistake, not wanting to get it wrong. And those fears around that take me to a very vulnerable, very, very vulnerable place. I'm aware of it. I'm working with it. 56 years working with it. And I feel like I'm aware enough to manage it, but I'm aware it's still there. It's probably going to be there always. So that's my facilitation challenge. I know I'm working with it well enough because, for example, at a recent retreat, after an exercise, somebody said, oh, I think there was a wasted opportunity there. And my stomach does a woo, a little somersault of anxiety. However, I'm also at the same time just celebrating that she can say that. Isn't that just wonderful that she feels safe enough to express herself? And it was welcomed. And there was this gorgeous discussion then with within the group and really rich learning. She loved the exercise actually, and there was this other piece that she felt we could have added into it and brilliant. But I'm aware of my own vulnerability in it.

Mm-hmm.

I need to keep minding that so that people can bring their anger or their frustration or their whatever. And even if it's with me, that I can be okay with that, you know.

I love that, how you also show that, um, it's this embodied experience that someone says something and then you feel this, I assume, the not good enough kind of voice.

No, for me it's like down in my belly. Yeah.

And then you feel it and then What do you do? How do you self-regulate? What's your strategy?

Breath, I guess. Breath quite quickly. Deep abdominal breath. My brain then is getting a message that I'm safe. I'm okay. I'm not in trouble. I'm not going to be hit. I'm not, you know, there's, I think the breath is really important. If we're taking an abdominal breath, our brain is getting a clear signal that we're not being chased by a lion. We're not We're not under threat. So pushing the belly muscles out, deep breath down, and our brain's gone, okay, we're safe. Everything else. So it helps my whole system just sort of re-regulate. And then the cognitive part of, of course, what's the challenge for this person who's saying this thing? And this lady, you could see she was, a lot was going on for her. So of course this is about her and what's she feeling and what's What's happening, but the breath for myself, my 2 feet on the floor in that moment.

And then just pausing and letting it unfold without acting, reacting, or saying anything.

And actually almost always offering, if somebody is saying something that's clearly difficult for them, just acknowledging that. And that's again, demonstrating that it's all welcome. Oh, that sounds like this is a really tricky thing for you to say, so I'm so glad that you have said it and you've brought that in. The response to it isn't my reaction of, oh, there isn't a panic here. It's actually wonderful that you're bringing that.

What I hear is that very often their strong response that triggers our kind of inner child or trauma response is mostly about them. So they react, they're seeing something that is important. And so they're expressing it in a way that it triggers us, but it's actually about them.

Absolutely.

And by acknowledging their experience, we also calm down ourselves because it is not about us.

Exactly. Yeah, I'm not under attack. This is not me, 4-year-old me. This is, yeah, I just listening to your podcast. It was about last week.

Yeah, with the inner child.

The boardroom. Yeah, I thought that was so interesting. And how sad it would be if at a retreat of self-exploration, if somebody accessed something that was so difficult for them and they said it, and then the facilitator is reactive to it. You know, that would be sad to say the least. So definitely I have to breathe and Yeah, this is about them and their process.

Yeah, because it would show that it's not safe to say it.

Yes. Yeah. And it needs to be safe. Everything.

Yeah. And I think it's, for me, that's my absolute obsession, the kind of the inner work of facilitators and sometimes have the impression that it's kind of tucked away as, oh, that's woo woo. That's the spiritual stuff. But yeah, what you, what you also just described, it's so We can damage the psychological safety of the group with just one reaction.

Yeah. Yeah. So important. Yeah. So every, every ounce of work that we've done on ourselves is what we're bringing to, to a space.

What would be your advice to your younger self?

Oh, I would tell her She's enough just to be herself, and that's enough. That's still my challenge to believe. I believe it sometimes and feel it sometimes. Yeah, believe, believe it. I believe it up here, but to believe it down in my heart and feel it is hard sometimes. But I do think the best work happens the more in touch I am with Being okay with who I am, and that includes being okay with my weaknesses and my vulnerabilities and my shame and my anger and, you know, all of that. Like, the more I can be okay with that in myself, the more okay I'm going to be with other people's, you know, this. Then they're going to feel that. They're going to feel that it's, it's okay. It's not that we're perfect or that we've got to be perfect. It's actually that we're enough just as we are.

And funny enough, nobody wants us to be perfect because it puts other people at unease. Yeah. Yeah.

Just being ourselves.

So unrelatable. Yeah.

Yeah. It's so interesting that actually when somebody shows their vulnerability, somebody was saying that to me recently actually, and I don't quite know how I do that, but apparently I show my vulnerability in a group. And it's not that I'm going in with my story or, you know, let me tell you about my story. I'm definitely not using it as a space. I process, but that I do somehow show my vulnerability. And I think that is a strength to the group that I'm not here as the I'm all sorted person. I'm here as another human being and I'm enough and you are too. So that's where we're meeting.

Yeah, the process of normalizing what's going on. And it's interesting, I still find it fascinating. How do we sense the vulnerability of someone? How do we know someone is vulnerable if they are not making it explicit? Or as you say, sharing a story? What is it that makes other people trust us because they can sense that we're leading with vulnerability?

Yes. And that we're being real.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know fully. And maybe that is actually the vulnerability, the being real. Because if we, if we're just ourselves without masking it up, and it is Vulnerable, because then if we get criticized, we cannot find excuses.

Yeah, we're not hiding behind a persona or role. Did we talk about costumes today? I don't know if we did, like putting layers on and hiding and, you know, all of that.

We did a little bit.

But, um, yeah, that was—

What is it that you wanted to say or share about the costumes? Do we have any?

Just when I was just as you said there about masking and the irony that actually that is what we might use in the retreat, mask, literally a mask or a cape or something. But I think it allows people when they're using these things, it's like they cannot be their layered self. They're not being who they present on the outside. It's like they're accessing something deeper. There's some little paradox in there because I'm hiding now. I'm a little bit hidden or I'm a little bit cloaked, and I can tap into something else in myself.

Hiding from observation. It's like a little child closing their eyes.

Yeah, because it's not really me. It's another thing. Even though it is really them. It's like really getting down deep into stuff, but it's like I'm not having to present. Yeah, I'm hidden from, or I'm masking over who I like to present. And if this is how I present myself and I have to control that, now I can, with this, maybe I can actually access something else because it's not really me. There's an interesting paradox there.

And when I see you and you're expressing, there's a lot of hiding the face. Does the face have a particular role?

Well, the face is what we look at, isn't it? It's like the window and the eyes are the window into who we are. So yeah, when people can feel like they, I don't know, I don't know quite what's happening there, but That you're not going to judge me for it because it's else, you know, you can't really see it. These gestures don't work on a podcast, do they? And on audio. Oops.

Yeah, hiding your eyes. And it's fascinating because it must be something deeply rooted in the human brain that if we hide our face behind, if we cannot see them, they cannot see us, or if they don't see the face, then Yeah, but it's giving us freedom to go somewhere, which is so necessary and so gorgeous that people can actually access it and go there, but without being—

I suppose it's all to do with judgment, isn't it? Judgment of ourselves and fear of judgment of others. But if you can't really see me—

And the image that comes to my mind is As a child, I loved to build these kind of protected— how do you call that?

Like a den, was it?

Yeah, where you can hide, and— or putting even a tent in the living room. And then what would happen in the tent, although everyone can hear it and it's totally exposed, but it has some kind of protection. And things that would happen inside of there would be Kind of not wheelie wheel. Yeah.

And you're— the freedom to access something that maybe you wouldn't if everybody's just looking on at you, but you could do, you know, just kind of more magical or something.

Yeah. Yeah. The, the impact of context, the context we're creating through the space around the costumes, the telling our brain that this is a different reality. Where you can experiment, it's safe.

Yeah. And once I feel like I have this cloak on, that somehow I can do something a bit different, or back to the sword in my hand, just suddenly it all feels very different. And that there is something just magical in that, that you might access something that would take decades of one-to-one therapy to access. And you've just suddenly got it because you've got the sword in your hand, or you've got the graduate cape on, you're the judge in this situation. Justice. And that's something that happens at retreats, like court cases are held, justice is carried out in a situation. It's like, wow, the feeling that that gives somebody. Um, yeah, so just, uh, I just wanted to make sure that we had anything about the power of the costumes and layers and fabric.

And yeah, you mentioned the, the sword and the crown earlier. And, um, and what it sounds like, and maybe that's also why it's, um, it might be so connected in terms of experience to a psychedelic experience, that it helps our brain to close open loops when we play them out. And our brain will think that, oh, that's reality. So, well, the court case we've never had, the moment we could never defend ourselves, and now—

Yeah.

We're there in front of others, they witness us, and finally our brain can come to peace because open loop is closed.

Yeah, because it's real. The play-acting of it, it's a real experience right now that I'm feeling, that I'm saying, that people are with me. So although it seems like it's role-play and it's pretend, the experience is real. It is embodied, and something shifts internally that you have felt that. Um, periods. Yeah, it's good. Fascinating. Our time is gone.

Yeah. Thank you so much, Paula. I will put the links to how to find you and your work and the retreats in the show notes, uh, so that the listeners can access it and find you.

Maybe you'll come one day. I will also ask Violet.

I'm, I am intrigued. I'll be the first to visit your website now.

Thank you so much.

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