340 - From Archetypes to Authenticity in Leadership with Sarah Budd

What does it take to make workshops work? And how can we facilitate collaboration that sticks and leads to results? My name is Miriam Hadnes, and with the Workshops Work podcast, I'm on the mission to find the magic ingredients that make workshops work. Today with me on the show is Sarah Butt, and we dive deep into a mind-blowing conversation about leadership, facilitative leadership, and The reasons for leadership cosplay. Why are leaders taking on different costumes, different personas? What is the cost? What is the benefit? And where does it come from? So lean back and enjoy the conversation. And don't forget to scroll down to the show notes to find more information about my guest and to subscribe to the show if you like it. Thank you for listening. Hello, Sarah. Welcome to the show.

Hello. Thank you.

I am very excited about this conversation.

Me too.

It was Elise who connected us, who has been on the podcast and I've known for years. And it was the old leadership archetypes. I think that was the keyword that she threw in. I was like, ooh.

Oh, that makes me laugh. Yeah. That's a great one.

And our exploration call could have been a podcast already. So now we're finally ready to share it with the audience.

That's right. That's right. I'm so curious what we're going to talk about today.

Yes.

Yes.

And before we are getting there, always kick it off with the same question. When did you start calling yourself a facilitator? And actually, do you?

Yeah. Yeah. I love that question. And I was thinking about it. And probably 10, 12 years ago, I was a stay-at-home mom for 13 years. And then as I started to get back into work and into thinking about what might be, I started looking at what's out there and I discovered the word facilitator and I was like, oh, that's what I do. I didn't know that was a thing. And so I kind of started using that word in some senses then as I was exploring kind of the industry of organization psychology, leadership psychology, all the things. And it's interesting, as I was thinking about it, I was realizing I don't use it so much as a noun as a verb, right? So I come with a facilitative approach to any work that I do, but I don't necessarily label myself as a facilitator, if that makes sense.

Yeah, yeah. And I think that most of my podcast guests, yeah, that's how they identify that. Yeah, maybe not a capital F facilitator.

Yeah, yeah.

But who facilitate as part of their work.

And part of it, I think, is that that's not a role that people go out and search to pay for, right? As we're trying to market ourselves and what we do, we have to focus on a different aspect of our identity. And that's the approach that we're bringing in.

Yeah, that's true. And I just recently spoke to a colleague that very often a group doesn't notice the value of facilitation because it remains almost invisible. Or magically everything went perfectly. We could have saved the bucks to hire that person who didn't speak.

Right.

And we only realized how important facilitation is if it doesn't go well.

Right. Or people think, the leader thinks, that's something I'm supposed to be able to do. I need to be able to run a meeting well or do the strategic plan or something like that, right? That's not a separate skill set or value of that objective voice. Yeah.

And then do you think that this is a skill that leaders actually are inspired to— I have somehow, and I'm thinking out loud here, I haven't made up the thought totally yet. I wouldn't be surprised if facilitation as a leadership skill would be something that might be more on the softer side.

For sure, for sure.

So how much prejudice or stereotype is there?

Right. Yeah, yeah. I think that's really fair. And I think about, as I think about leaders who are Feeling responsible to run the meeting, they're not always thinking of it from the skill sets that we bring as facilitators. They're thinking of it as, how is the meeting being led? Or are we using time really well? And did we get to our deliverable? And did we do this, that, the next thing? And it's a— it feels like a luxury expense more than a business-critical, this is how we do our best work role or position. Yeah.

Yeah.

Which I think is one of the challenges we have as facilitators, right, is to Close that gap between, no, this isn't luxury. This is how we work, right? This is how the business moves forward.

Yeah. Especially if we look at facilitation as something that goes beyond the agenda and the timekeeping. But how can we actually access all the knowledge that's in the room?

Exactly.

How can we wake up all the people in the meeting who are not speaking to participate so actually that everyone benefits? Yes. And then hierarchy plays a big role. So if status and respect is measured by who speaks the most, then maybe this person doesn't want to facilitate and to hear from others.

Absolutely. Which, which is an interesting dynamic, right? Sometimes you have the leader who is like, I need my point to be coming across. And sometimes you have the one who's sitting back and being like, I'm trying to get other people to talk and they almost won't talk enough. Right, in those roles. One of the things I talk about when I say that I'm coming in to facilitate is that I'm helping the team or the group have the conversation they wish they could be having. Like, everyone's having side conversations on the way to the car or through text after, or what's happening. What happens if we're actually able to bring that into the conference room and to have those conversations in real time? Yeah.

What do you think? I want to park that question. So I parked the question. Or do you think the real obstacles to that are? And first would like to ask, since you're also— you're teaching leadership at university, so how— just to be aligned also with the audience, when we use the word leader or leadership, what are we talking about? Mm-hmm.

I love it. I love it. My mind is going like in 5 different directions, but I'm going to stay with you here. When we use the word leadership, I am frequently thinking of, I am frequently thinking of the role of who is guiding the direction, which isn't fair. We know, right? A lot of leadership happens not dependent on the role. It's not about who's in the role. It's about like where things go. But the people that I am contracting with are frequently the people who are in that role.

Okay.

And those, and people who are trying to get better at being in that role, increase their skills.

Great. And I think that really helps because then it's not something, oh, we are all leaders, right? Everyone can be a leader. No, we're talking about someone who is assigned to lead a group into a direction and who takes decisions.

Yeah, I think that's fair for this conversation. Yeah.

Okay, great. Um, I think that helps, right? So yeah, yeah, common ground. And I packed the question. So I love this. What is the conversation that you wish you had, but you somehow don't? What do you think gets really in the way of these teams to have the conversation?

I think it's very team dependent, right? And very organization dependent what the specific obstacle is, which is part of the fun of being a facilitator is you never know what's going to happen, right? And what you're stepping into, what you're trying to adapt with. Frequently, I think it is the I think there's an aspect of people trying to drive the agenda and keep people on time and on task, and they've decided the task, right? And, or maybe a dominant speaker in the room who has a side thing that's coming and it just didn't, it hasn't been heard properly or it hasn't been represented in the way. I think frequently it's about, okay, I'm gonna unwind myself just a little bit as I'm thinking this through. One of the frameworks that I really like to use is GRPI. Are you familiar with this? It's the idea of goals, roles, process in a personal life.

Yeah.

Right. And these are kind of the 4 pillars of teaming or working together. And I think one of the things that gets people so that they're not having the conversations that they want to be having is misalignment on goals. What are we even doing here in the first place? What is this meeting about? So in the microcosm, what is this hour supposed to be about? What's our goal? But also more broadly, what are we actually moving towards or focusing on? And what are we paying attention to? What are the risks or what are the benefits or what are the People all come with their own perspective of what's most important, right? But then we haven't taken the time to align on what we as a group think is most important, to make sure there's time for that in the conversation. So kind of backing up a step in that regard, I think, is really helpful.

And then I wonder whether it's one of those where everyone assumes that the other one knows, or assumes that they are aligned, but they are not. And then there's this, oh, why? We don't need to talk about that because everyone knows.

Right, right.

Or we don't need to talk about that because I don't want to admit that I'm the only one who doesn't know.

Yes, all the assumptions we're making, right, on what other people are thinking or feeling or how it's, how it's coming forward. It's funny, like, as you're talking about those examples, we assume that everyone's thinking the same thing, but then we also make assumptions of that person is, you know, out in left field because why are they going that way? Why are they thinking different than everyone? We're making We're making divergent assumptions at the same time, right?

Yeah. And then the question is, is leadership bringing everyone on track? And then how fast? And how much space is given to maybe explore why someone is running in a different direction, whether it might make sense? And then there's often not enough time for that.

Yes. Yes, I think that that's fair. And I think that there's work to do before that meeting or that workshop or that retreat or whatever it is, right? Even just in agenda setting, one of my favorite ways to set an agenda is in the first 5 minutes. These are the things I think are most important. Who else has things we need to add? And what order should we be going in? Right? Having— taking a few minutes to, as a group, determine what we need to be talking about in this time.

Yeah. What I like about that is it doesn't assume that people have prepared. And it doesn't give power to— the one person who has prepared. Yeah, but also allows others to chip in and to bring in topics that might be important.

Yeah, yeah. And they could have prepared their 5 minutes or their 10 minutes, right? And so we need to make sure we really are honoring that preparation. And there are also impromptu things that come up as a result of that, right, that we need to make time to talk about.

Yeah, yeah. And all of that is actually a big Responsibility if then on top of that you also want to listen to what's going on and maybe contribute your own idea.

Right, right. Yeah, right. And sometimes we have ideas that don't actually need to be shared in this moment, but they feel urgent to us, right? Because they're on the tip of our tongue and we need to get them out. And so how do we as a group determine where we're focusing our energy and time based on what we need to have accomplished at the end versus what's a detour?

Yeah. And I'm sure there's a name for this bias, this present time bias or something, that stuff that just has happened seems more important and more urgent than everything else.

What is that? Is that recency? Recency bias? Yeah.

Yes. Um, yeah, fascinating. So we started off the conversation about, uh, with the kind of word of, um, old leadership archetypes. And I would love for you to share with me and the audience, what are these old leadership archetypes? And what maybe can we learn from that or leave behind?

Yeah, yeah. Okay, my mind is working.

Especially as you're educating the next leaders.

OK, 2 places. So I want to tell you them both so that I remember to come back if the conversation allows. One is this idea of cosplaying as a certain type of leader, right, that we're kind of talking about here. And the other is what's changing in our environment and what's required of a leader now versus a couple of decades ago, right? And I think I want to start there, if that's OK. We talk about change changing. It's always changing, right? There's never a point where change stays static. It just doesn't happen. But the change that we are currently seeing leaders have to navigate navigate now is exponentially different than it's been in the past. Much faster paced, much more complex, so many more things coming in. And there's never a, now we're settling into the new norm, because the pace of change is so fast. So there isn't— a lot of our old change models and how we lead through them are about getting people used to the difference, right?

So you have an endpoint, so to speak, where you aspire to get to, and then you can rest.

Yes, yes. And it's about kind of catching up to that place, right? Like, how do my emotions catch up to that? And how do I learn the new way of being in this space? Right? And I— oh, go ahead.

Sorry, you see me thinking. Thank you. So what I hear in that is that, so in the past, there was a change that was predefined, a new status quo.

Yeah.

And we have to bring people along. And now it isn't defined, but the change is the process.

Yes, yes. And in the past, there were frequently changes that we made that we knew how to make. We recognize the situation that we're moving towards, and we know the steps to get there, right? We might call that like a technical kind of change where it is a— we're following the path. We can find the instructions on Google, right? Or with someone. And now with today's change, we're being called more and more into an adaptive, always-on kind of change where we don't, we don't know the path forward. We don't even necessarily know the endpoint. We just know that we can't stay where we are. Right? Because, and there are so many more factors coming in that are influencing the change and what, where we might go in the future. Sometimes that feel unpredictable, right? COVID-19 is a great example, right? Where that didn't feel predictable to a lot of people, a lot of leaders.

Since you're saying COVID-19, I was wondering, so for me, this was a moment that was unique in a sense that it was okay to admit that we don't know globally, independent of anyone's status or position. Nobody knew, and it was absolutely okay to say, nobody expected that. We don't know how to handle that. We don't know what will come.

Yeah.

And Is this still something that leaders after COVID-19— is it something that has been adopted now as a new leadership skill? Or do you think we just went back to where we were?

I think for a while, it was really valued. And I think we are moving back toward that place of predictability and knowing what the position is. I also think it was— it did. It felt like a relief, right, where we're all figuring this out. It's not going the way we planned and it's okay, right? And there were a lot of organizations that shut down as a result. And that knowing that this is now part of the tapestry of what can happen makes us want to be prepared for something similar going forward, where it could be something completely unexpected, but we're prepared for something completely unexpected and we have an ability to pivot no matter what that unexpected thing could be. Is that right?

Yeah. And is this even reachable or is it just a That's a great question.

I think part of how— and this is what's different about what's being expected of leaders now, right? Is that we can pivot, we can, we can handle whatever is unexpected because we are not leaning on our own technical ways of doing things. We're developing our skills of adaptability, of figuring things out together, of how do we work in a more, much more complex environment. We can't necessarily have the same hierarchical, almost gatekeeping of decisions because they're slower, right? We need to have a more agile, rapidly moving, responsive kind of leadership model without abandoning the structure that a hierarchy can bring. We're kind of doing both. And Kotter just put out a new book on change. Actually, it was probably 5 or 6 years ago, but he talks about this kind of dual approach to leadership. Which I think that that's where things are moving. So in the past, there was kind of an archetype of the leader as the steady, knowing person. They set the vision. We listen to them. They move forward, right? And now it's much more about how you facilitate adaptability and responsiveness in the organization as a whole and that kind of vision, I think.

And how do leaders deal with that change? Because one is pretty much in control.

Yeah.

And the other one is surrendering to the lack of control and gaining status from that. Yeah, but it—

I think, I think it is a— I think that it can absolutely feel like that. And I think that control is looking different as we realize that in the level of complexity, rapid pace, and just the environment we live in, that's not— that kind of old control is just an illusion. Like, that's not actually holdable, right? I mean, it's the sand slipping through your fingers. You think you've got it, but then there's nothing there.

Yeah.

Right? And that this way of you are leading others through the figuring out, through the challenge, through the, what are we holding still? What are our decision-making criteria that are applicable in any situation? We haven't exactly planned this scenario, this scenario, and this scenario. We know how we will respond broadly based on the values that we have or based on our skill sets or based on what we're happening. It's a different— it's guidance. More than control, right?

Facilitation. Yeah.

Yeah. I do think leaders are becoming more and more facilitators than the top-down.

And do we observe that in reality? Because I can— what my hypothesis would be, my wild hypothesis, I would be curious what you think about that, is that there are people who grew through the hierarchy to become the leaders in old models. And so through the, through the old kind of archetype of, okay, I'm in control, I'm knowledgeable, I'm maybe a technical expert. And now things are changing and they have to admit that they don't know. They have to be more facilitative. They have to learn all these skills that were maybe never required. So now the new generation of employees are coming in expecting that, and then it's a struggle around power.

Maybe it can be depending on how you hold that position, right? And I think that there are potential for cultural differences too, and what's expected of leaders when we talk about multicultural intelligence and how what we what we platform as this is the ideal leader, right? And so I'm based in the US, and so I think that there's a shift, but it's always a pendulum, right? You get a little movement one way, and then it kind of goes back another way, and you get a little movement, it goes back and forth. So there's always both. And to your point about power struggle, I think it matters quite a bit how it's framed, right? How the leader feels about that approach themselves, and then how that's represented to the group.

Yeah.

And what kind of I don't want to say freedom, but what the authorization is of everyone else, right? And what authorization remains with whoever that leader is and their approach. And all of that is organization-specific, I think, based on where they are in their organizational lifecycle. Are they trying to retain market share or are they trying to— are they in rapid growth, right? Are they trying to kind of keep what's already established and just maintain? Versus let's innovate and let's go somewhere else. But I think that how the leader feels about that sense of power or that sense of what their role actually is makes a really, really big difference, right? Which kind of connects over to this idea of cosplay that we were talking about a second ago. Can I connect us there?

Yes, please, please.

So I have this theory around the idea that we are frequently cosplaying as leaders. Cosplaying meaning you're kind of putting on a costume and pretending to be someone else. Right? And that we have this idea of what a leader is supposed to be. And that was, we roll up into work, we're kind of putting it on. And we're trying to figure out what actions would we take, or what would the good leader say in this moment, or what would happen in this moment, right? And we're trying to be this projected character of ourselves, right? As opposed to coming in and being authentic with who we are and what we're bringing and what our position is. I think there's a couple of reasons I can talk about this for a while, so feel free to interrupt.

Please. Yeah, I'm fascinated. Okay.

I think there's a couple of reasons that people cosplay and some are positive for certain, right? So there's like an in-the-moment or for-a-moment kind of cosplay where it's just strategic. It's helping us to step into a role. Think Beyoncé as Sasha Fierce, right? She takes on this kind of persona while she's performing and then she sets it down when she's done. This helps her access what she needs to be able to do that work. Love it. I think there's this other version where we feel like it's ongoing and it's never ending, and it exhausts us because this is the only acceptable version of us.

Because we're hiding Parts instead of enhancing Parts.

Yes. Yes. We're trying to fit into something. Right? Sometimes that's a dominant culture where it could be, that could be race-based. It could be, sure, I love golf. Right? Or it could be there's just something about us where we're trying to fit into this dominant space in some way. It can also be because we haven't yet developed our own point of view of what leadership means in this, in this space, or how I am as a leader, what's important as a leader. We're taking what we've learned maybe by reading biographies or maybe going to leadership classes, and we're like, this is what we're supposed to do. So this is what I'm about to do.

Or what we learned from the leaders we had or the previous manager or the CEO.

Yes.

That's where then the culture comes in. Yes.

Some of the leaders that I've coached, we can get into that level of discussion where it's like, what, why is that the approach that you feel like you need to take? Sometimes when we say, why is that, right? It becomes like a defensive question. And it's not a defensive question, but it's like, tell me about what makes you think that. And they're tracing it back to, well, that's the way my grandfather was, or that's the way my father was. We take an early leadership, we almost archetype them, right? This is the way that it's supposed to be. And so some of the work that I'm doing is on sorting through kind of the questions and the work to determine your own point of view about what's important to you as you're leading a group and what are you trying to provide. So working on, I have a workbook about free yourself from leadership cosplay. I have a deck with just like a question of the day kind of thing that helps you just kind of, you know, get your mind in where you want to come in the space that you're entering. And I think that that is a— especially for people that are in a new role, it doesn't necessarily have to be they're a new leader, but it's in a new role because there's a big change from middle management to senior management to executive leadership, right? And how that shows up, being very clear on how you are entering that space and how you're being intentional about how you enter that space and making decisions as opposed to being reactive, right?

Yeah, that's fascinating. And I would love to dig— you gave a few examples of where the archetypes come from. And the different sorts of cosplay. And I wonder when it becomes too late.

Ooh.

So maybe we can start with, okay, so how do we actually do the choices? And then as we enter, I think there is this moment, how much freedom, how much autonomy do we have as a leader to actually choose for our own authentic self? And then I can imagine that a little bit of costume as we start feels safe until it becomes our new face, and then we burn out.

Yeah, the fake it till you make it idea.

Yeah, or yeah, maybe fake it until you make it, and then you realize that now I'm making something that I never wanted to make.

Exactly.

Only fake left.

Right, right.

Yeah, so maybe we can start at the beginning and then work our way towards—

Okay. Okay, tell me about too late. When it's too late, what are you thinking of there?

I'm thinking of golf. Oh, of course I love golf. Oh, of course I love to wear the suit to work and to speak in a certain lingo and to belong to certain business clubs. And I would hide that actually, I come home and I listen to hip-hop.

Yeah.

And maybe I Do rap music and I play basketball.

Right.

And then I hide all of that until I'm basically in this almost schizophrenic situation where I'm someone else at work and giving up my authenticity.

Yeah. And the cost and the toll that takes on.

Exactly.

Exactly.

So this would be for me the too late, because then it's, it's taxing to play a role and to pretend. And, or someone who doesn't admit at work that they're queer. For me, this would also— so when is it? When are you coming out?

Right, right.

For me, that's also kind of cosplay.

I think it can be. Absolutely. And I think, to be very clear, a lot of times when there's that hiding idea, it's because that's the only way I keep my job, right? Or that's who I need to be in this scenario. This other aspect of myself doesn't feel like it's going to be welcomed. And I think that there are Every person's scenario is different on what is actually the right choice for you in your scenario and what you're doing, right? So I don't ever want to sit here and say, no, you must be what others would determine as your authentic self in every scenario. That's your decision. You're doing— you're making the decision based on what feels right to you.

Yeah.

And it's when we get into that moment of burnout of, ah, this is exhausting. I just— this drives me bonkers, right? This tires me out and it's not worth it. Um, that I think we start examining the, okay, how do I show up in a way that feels— I think the word authentic is almost overused, right? But in a way that feels authentic to me and doesn't make me feel exhausted at the end. And sometimes it is a— it means that there are difficult conversations of, you know what, Bob, I actually don't love golf. Here's the thing I do love. Do you want to do that instead? Right? Or just looking for those opportunities to kind of insert more of yourself. And I think it's very important to acknowledge that we are, we are often different people in different scenarios. And that's not a bad thing.

Yeah. And maybe we can double-click on the word authentic.

Yes, yes.

Because I recently had a conversation with a group of executives in a workshop where we spoke about psychological safety. And then authenticity came up and how vulnerable it is to be authentic.

Yeah.

Because authenticity is not— oh, I, I read this article that leaders should be strategically authentic.

Oh.

And I almost jumped into the screen to shake the, shake the author because I got so angry. I'm like, strategic authenticity, what the heck?

Uh-huh.

Because then for me, authenticity is when we— it's not to be the worst part of our character when we don't know how to behave, not to jump through the screen. But admitting that we're human.

Yeah, yeah.

I think the self-aware, the—

Yeah, yeah. I think for me, it's very important to distinguish transparency from authenticity. So transparency, meaning you can see all the way through me and there's nothing that I'm keeping for myself or that I keep for my relationship or for whatever, right? Authentic being I'm not pretending to do what will make you happy. Yes, right.

People pleasing is inauthentic.

Yeah, which for some people, depending on where they are in their kind of form of mind, uh, people pleasing is being authentic. This is how I know to navigate the world.

Yeah. And then it's What are the masks we're actually wearing to protect our wounds?

Right.

So because we're— many are inauthentic because they're traumatized, and then they don't even know that they're inauthentic.

Right. I mean, that's very authentic to them. Like, this is the way I've learned to be safe, quote unquote, in the world is to know who I'm talking to and to be who that person needs me to be. Yeah, that is authentic for me, right? That is how I know how to navigate the world. And there's potential, right, for them to, you know, do therapy and discover other things and whatever. But that's not fair for us to expect others. Right.

And it's not on us to judge, oh, you're being inauthentic, because exactly, if putting down the mask would mean not feeling safe in the world.

Right, right. So I like to think of authenticity as it didn't wear me out at the end. Because I did, I was hiding, I was pulling something back that just felt painful to pull back.

Yeah. Or it was the least costly. Because I think people pleasing is also—

It can be the least costly option.

Also exhausting, but maybe less than Being anxious.

Right, right. And so, and so it's some— I mean, I don't want to get on the bad list here, but in some ways that can be a strategic sense, right, of, of how we show up into that space.

Mm-hmm.

Or it could be that in a space where you are very comfortable, you almost have a place of privilege where you know what to expect and what's going on, and you can show up in a different way. Your personality might look very different in that space than in a space where you're in something brand new and you don't know what to expect. And what are the norms and what's happening here? And you show up in a very different way.

And this is, for me, this is both very authentic without being strategically authentic.

Right.

I think what bugs me, right, just to— what bugs me with this strategic authenticity is it suggested that asking people to be authentic means inviting them to show the full transparency of their bad character. And then me not behave— not having myself under control and behaving like a 5-year-old, for me, that's not authentic. That's immature.

That's strategic authentic.

No, and then it would be strategically authentic to hide certain parts of your character. And for me, that's maturity. That has nothing to do with authenticity.

I agree with you.

And that's why I got so angry.

Yes. Yes. And I think that that can be a common misunderstanding where authenticity is I say whatever came to my head because that's That's immature or neurotic or—

Right.

Whatever. Emotionally dysregulated, right? Like, that's not fair to offer to everyone. And this is, this is me, right? Like, we all have things that pop into our head, but it does not make it the right thing to say or the way, the path to continue on. Yeah. Right.

And I don't even want my, my partner to be this kind of authentic. I don't want to know everything that's going on in their mind.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, good.

I'm glad that we're on the same page.

Okay, good.

And I do like your definition and description that, yes, the mask that we wear to protect ourselves is part of our authentic self. Yeah, maybe not of our highest spiritual enlightened self, right? But our authentic being.

Right. I mean, we all have growth ahead of us, right? And who knows, who knows what next year I'll uncover that I was doing that wasn't serving me, right? And then I kind of unpack And this is actually more authentic to what is, what is me. I think it's very unfair for us to judge other people's authenticity.

Yes.

Right? I think it's one of those things that sometimes we can get a hint. We can get like a suspicion. We can get a vibe that like something seems off here, right? It just feels, hmm, it feels a little political or a little calculated or a little, that's not what you said to me an hour ago or whatever, right? But I do think that this is primarily an inward personal journey more than something that we determine. Like, we could never rate on someone's, you know, performance review how authentic they were. Yeah, right.

And somehow I have the impression that we, we sense that. So if someone says yes and means no, we kind of sense this dissonance.

Um, yeah, we can.

So I do think that many humans have a very good bullshit detector in terms of authenticity, maybe sometimes even better than the person themselves. Someone who's people pleasing might not be aware that they're actually doing that.

Sure, sure.

Because it's just how they operate. And I do agree, who are we to judge that?

Yeah, it's both and. Yeah, right.

So I agree, people sense the inauthenticity, but we cannot judge because Yes.

So, so notice your sensor that's going off, something's off here, and hold that with curiosity as opposed to certainty, right?

And therefore, I think the, the charismatic leaders, they are people who are, who just win with their authenticity because they own it. I think there's something that many people feel attracted to. So we sense it if someone has done the work.

Can I disagree with you a little bit?

Yes, please. I love it when guests disagree with me. Thank you.

I think that a lot of who we assign the label charismatic to are people who are very good external representers, but they're not necessarily integrated internally. I don't know that that's a given association, right? It feels like they are to us, but then you, you'll read these exposés 10 years later of what they were really like at home. Or what's really happening to actually work for their organization or whatnot. I think it's a skill that we can develop to appear authentic and to appear charismatic. But it's not necessarily a straight causation. It's not necessarily always true, I guess.

And then it's a very different strategic authenticity that's borderline dangerous.

Yes.

Or without borderline, just anxious. Yeah.

Yes. And I think sometimes the most charismatic people, they can be wonderful humans, right? Sometimes it is fully integrated, and this is who they are. But it doesn't mean that they're the one that's the best skilled to lead this space or this issue or this scenario.

So is the charismatic leader one of the archetypes?

Oh, interesting. It could be. I haven't, I haven't actually looked at all the different types of leader in that way. But I think that, that you're onto something with that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we talk about that, right? Like, this is someone who is a charismatic leader. This is someone who is a visionary leader. This is someone who is an innovative leader or whatnot. Yeah, I think you're right.

Because I wonder, and you touched on that, speaking about, oh yeah, my grandfather was this kind of person. So the, the choice of the costume for the leadership cosplay. Where do you think does it come from? And is it conscious or unconscious mostly?

I think that, I think it's all of them. I think that for a lot of people, it's unconscious. Other people are, they're reading biographies. This person did a great job. Everyone talks about that person as a leader. Let's see what they did and what can I implement, right? And it's almost an intentional learning choice. And I think for, I'm gonna slightly divert for a second. Is that okay? I really appreciate, uh, Jerome Keegan and Jennifer Garbieberger, the way they talk about adult development and different forms of mind.

Mm-hmm.

They're talking about different ways people approach just how their minds work, how they're thinking about things. And they're not necessarily talking about that when we think of like child development, it's like you're supposed to go to stage to stage to stage, right? These are much more, your form of mind needs to match whatever scenario you're in, your complexity.

Mm-hmm.

Right? So it's not like something where we should aspire to be in these different places. It's just a description of what different people have. And, uh, there's 3 that I'm gonna bring into this conversation that they're talking about. One is the socialized mind, where we are making decisions based on fitting into the group, into belonging, into being safe in that way, right? Um, what's right for the organizational values or for my family or for whatnot? This is how we just think about things with staying within. There's a self-authored form of mine, which is, this is my personal core values and I operate within those. And sometimes they can become uncomfortable, right? Because I'm not fitting into that organization as well, or I'm not fitting into that family group as well, or whatnot. And then there's a self-transformed, which is talking about kind of like being able to synthesize multiple perspectives, dimensions, point of view all the time. You're always seeing all the options.

Mm-hmm.

I think— now I'm losing myself a minute here, but I think that often If we're in a socialized place, that archetype that we're taking in is unconscious. It's more frequently just something that we've absorbed as this is what's right in this space.

To satisfy the need for belonging.

Yes. Yeah. And this is how it's always been in my experience. And this is what's right and normal. Right. And I think that we're in more of that self-authored frame of mind, we might be more intentionally seeking out What did others do and how do I apply that for me? Right? Which is not to say that socialized wouldn't read biographies and take things in, right? Somebody who's celebrated in their space, of course, we're going to try to do things that they did. That's really successful here, right? Not a conscious thought, but that's just how we think. And in the self-authored, it's, um, what am I pulling in or what are my influences and what decision am I making as a result of that? It's a lot of kind of, I'm making it sound very intentional and I don't know that it always is so much as it just feels integrated or it feels off.

Mm-hmm.

In some way, right? And I think a lot of what we do in leadership development, especially as we're getting into senior-level leadership or executive leadership, is moving people even deeper into that self-authored space. So it's less about the belonging and less about the cultural norms— cultural meaning the organization or your family or your microcultures, right? And more about what is your point of view and how are you leading this organization. Right? What are you contributing personally? I feel like that's bringing things into your head.

Yeah. What comes to my mind is then the integrity.

Yeah.

And then the leading with integrity, where it's also a clearer leadership in the sense that to give directions, if we're aligned with, if our actions are aligned with our values, that's how I understand integrity.

And people in any form of mind can have very high integrity, right? It's what we're basing what that integrity is on. So in a socialized form of mind, your integrity is within what is right in this group. The group decides what is right and what is not.

Okay.

And are we in integrity with that, right? Versus in self-authored, you're starting to move more into, um, I understand that this is a group that I'm living in, but for me, it just feels off in some way. What is my integrity?

So the, the organizational context for both kinds of mindsets or leaders are very different. So I would think that there may be more hierarchical organizations, more maybe family traditions, more conservative organizations might expect these leaders, expect their leaders to integrate the styles that is lived around them to belong, whereas, um, maybe more progressive— I don't want to call them modern— organizations would expect their leaders to find their own.

It can be. And, and I, I want to be clear, like, we're talking about this from a psychologist perspective, anthropologically almost. We're describing what's happening. more than anyone being like, I think I'm in this form of mind. And so this is how I make my decisions, right? Or this is what we expect, right? So in that socialized, I mean, they're very, very successful, very senior, very executive leaders can be in that socialized place. Absolutely. And you're going to hear things like, this is who we are. This is the way we've done it, right? This is what's right for us. This is how we're, we're a part of this. And it can be in that social, self-authored frame of mind too, right? Very successful, very known, you know, as top of the leaders as you go or all the way throughout. And it can start to sound like, I know this is what's happened, but, or the context that we're in, but I feel like for me, it's just really important this, right? And then they start to kind of spread that throughout the organization. Really firm belief in that this approach is the right approach and other people, please come join me in that, right? There was one thing that you said that I wanted to come back to and I'm losing it.

Where were you ending with the hierarchical organizations?

Hierarchical organizations. I've lost it.

And how they accommodate leaders, or how leaders have—

And kind of what they expect from a leader, right? Yeah. And I think that this— yes. So sometimes we might think that a, like, a certain form of mind is what we're asking for in our leaders. But usually that only happens because that's where we are. And so we think that's where everyone should be.

Mm-hmm.

Right? Because we're not ever thinking about these different forms of mind and like what happens. That only happens when you go into doctorate, you know, grad school and you start, you get nerding out on all this stuff, right? But just the way we live our lives, we usually think that whatever my approach is, is the right approach and we can assign a moral value to it. This is right. This is wrong. This is good. This is bad. Right? The interesting thing for me is I love frameworks. I love typologies because it expands the options. We don't know what the options are beyond what we do, right? We kind of are like, this is the way it works, and either people— other people are either weird or else I'm missing something they have, right? But now there's these— all these ways to be that make sense, and there's no moral value to it. There's no good or bad. It's just, oh, there's different places people can be coming from. Whether we're talking about like a strengths orientation, right?

Mm-hmm.

Or which strengths people are leading with, or a of mind, or I don't know, some people like MBTI or something like that, right? Just some kind of way to— a framework, a scaffold that we build our understanding of the world on. Yeah.

And make sense of the people around us with a little bit less judgment.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which I think is really valuable. Yeah.

Yeah. That's what the— where— yeah. Where diversity comes in and why it's so valuable, because we do need different perspectives.

Which I think is so valuable, especially going back to the change that we were talking about and how complex it is. And we're working on global levels, and we're not only working with organizational cultures, we're working with deeply ingrained national cultures and ethnicities, right? And, uh, things that we don't even know are possible to be different somewhere else, right? Just basic assumptions about how life works. And the more that we're expanding our view of what can be different, right, the more able we are to navigate that multicultural interaction, to have intelligence, multicultural intelligence. Right.

Yeah. And then I would assume that the more pressure is coming from the outside, so more change, higher pace, more at stake. So leaders have to take bigger decisions, air quotes, so with less information.

Yeah.

Or maybe sometimes even too much information. It actually doesn't mean anything.

No, I think it does.

And then I would think that it's then even more difficult to deal with then the diversity, to have this cognitive diversity or the ability to see opportunity in all these possibilities and different minds. So what does it take a leader to grow into that?

I come back to facilitation. I think this is what we do as facilitators when we enter a room and different people are interacting in different ways, and we're coming at it with a curiosity of what are they bringing and needing? What is their perspective? What's important to them? What's important to the group as a whole?

Right.

I think these are things that are going through our heads when we're in a workshop or when we're in a strategic planning retreat, or we're doing something facilitating the space, and every person coming in is contributing something or needs something, or what's happening there. And I think it's becoming more facilitative in our leadership as well.

And then it's the surrendering to the fact that the leader nowadays doesn't have to know everything. So the higher the pace, the bigger the stakes, the more surrendering, and then inviting, facilitating the team to come up with solutions.

I think organizations go through different stages where they need different things in leaders, right? So if you're a small organization, maybe you're just a small group of people and there can be a single leader who then delegates tasks to people, right? But they're kind of holding the space of it all. And then you get a little bit bigger and you're like, I need a leadership team and you are going to be fully responsible for this business line or this department or this responsibility, whatever it is. And y'all are going to report to me as the leader. And then there comes a point where we are making decisions in silos that was really useful for when we were this size or this complexity. that siloization because you needed to be fully responsible for that decision. That's how we moved fast. That's how we were agile. That's how we did it. And then there comes a point where the organization gets more complex and what we need is enterprise-level leadership.

Mm-hmm.

Where it's not about one person making the decision. It's about our senior leadership team as a group is thinking about what's the future of this business and how do our areas of expertise, our business lines, our departments, whatever they are, how are they affected? How are they contributing to this decision? What needs to be represented? But we're not making decisions from our own, just what benefits us in our business line. We're making decisions for the entire group, right? And I think that connects to this different type of leadership where we are moving into a more facilitative, what is the enterprise thought conversation? It's not about one person having the answer. It's about everyone bringing their expertise and thinking about the challenges as a whole, right?

Mm-hmm.

Where are we going with that overall? So it's a, it's a All of those are very valid ways of leading depending on what your situation calls for, right?

Yeah. And what the question that came to my mind, or the curiosity, is whether this— you described it as an organization growing, and then they need more distribution, more interaction where the silos no longer make sense. Could it also be with the complexity of an organization? Yeah, because I can imagine that nowadays everything is more intertwined, interrelated, and then maybe even smaller organizations cannot afford, in air quotes, to have silos anymore and need to interact.

That's interesting. That's interesting. I agree with you that it's not necessarily size-based what the complexity requires of you. Right? And I guess it depends on what your work is, right? And how complex your work is and where is it coming there. It goes back to this whole typologies. And there's no moral goodness. There's no, this is the way it should be. It's what matches your situation, what matches your need. There are options to choose from there.

Yeah. What is the market? Yeah, I think a software company would be very different from a company that is producing parts of a car. In terms of how much the silos have to be interconnected.

Yeah, that's interesting to think about. I'd be very curious to talk to people from both of those organizations and talk about what they're seeing and where they fit. I find that a lot of times I'm like, this makes sense to me, right? And then they're like, well, actually, here's what our reality is. Yeah. No, we're—

the more you know, the more you realize how complex it actually is.

Right, right. With how much more automation is going into automobiles with the computer systems in them and with whatnot, Like, it's possible that that level of complexity is there for them as well. They're not necessarily just assembly lining steel parts anymore, right?

Yeah, true. And that most companies might turn into tech companies.

Yes. I feel like tech is a component of everything these days. Yes. And there's also, I mean, we were talking about all this further complexity and, and moving into it. There's also the option to move out of it, right? And to value the slowing and the local, localness and the, I don't ever want to become that complex. I want to be relatively small and Neighbor-ish and connected in those ways, right? I mean, these are all options. It's just about what do you need and where are you going. Yeah, yeah.

And then it's self-leadership.

Say it again.

Self-leadership.

Right, right, right, right. Which comes into the— I mean, it brings us back to that intentionality. And I know what my point of view is and where I'm going. I'm not just following where everyone else is going. Yeah, this is where I'm going. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm writing a book, and I think we spoke about that in our exploration call, that I call provocatively Unprofessionalism.

That's right, yes.

And it is about the masks that people wear to fit in. And I would be curious to hear from your experience, what is the, what is your understanding of professionalism as a label in Leadership.

Mm-hmm. This is such a big question, right? Especially everyone's local context matters. So I'm in the US, and professionalism can have a racial undertone, right? Are you fitting into what is expected based on— are you becoming like the dominant culture, right? That's definitely something that can be represented with that. And it can also be a— you are putting the business wherever you are working as the primary being over your own personal, right? So I might talk to somebody differently, or I might interact with a client or somebody— if I ran into them in a coffee shop, we might have a very different interaction than if I am the barista, right? Because I'm representing the organization in some way, and that's professionalism, right? Versus, you know, just the random conversation if we bumped into each other and you spilled my coffee, right? Like that— those aren't— those are— Though that doesn't happen when I'm professional.

Yeah.

Right. And it's just, it's hard to talk about it in, for me, in the US without acknowledging that this can be an assimilation tactic also. Right. Are you fitting in in the way that we want you to? Kind of. So my mind keeps ping-ponging back and forth between them because acknowledging that while also, is it fair? I think it is very fair for an organization to have, you are representing us and this is the way the organization should be represented, right? So it's kind of a both-and tension in my mind all the time. Yeah, but I'm curious how you describe it.

I love that, and it's actually exactly— it boils down actually to the tension where the, um, originally the concept of professionalism comes from having professionals who would value the well-being of their clients higher than their own Okay. Well-being. So back from the Middle Ages, the professionals, so that was a title, someone who worked hard and then an association and guild would give them the stamp. Okay, you're a professional. And that was part of their status is like, oh yes, I, my clients come first. And it has changed to something that is now the corporate professionalism, where companies wanted their employees to represent them at scale. So they didn't have time to really get every individual through apprenticeship. So it had to go faster. So, okay, let's treat an organization, a corporation, like an assembly line. And then professionalism Indeed means fitting in, following the rules. And then nowadays, and that's where my curiosity for the book comes in, as, um, what comes after that? Because it doesn't seem to fit any longer because it is the value of diversity. It is the dominant culture that is no longer working, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, and then what is it, uh, that people are Are people still aspiring an outdated label? Yeah, curiosity.

I really love the history of that. I feel like that's something I love hearing, the historical context of how things came to be. I feel like it's so useful and it's something I don't always search out, but I think it's so useful when it's there. That's awesome.

Yeah, yeah. I kind of fell into that and started to dig in, like, what is it actually about? And then wonder what is it that people— and then we are back to the cosplay. What are people pretending to be in order to earn the label? And then the role of AI and the role of knowing and knowledge in leadership. Do you think that— what do you think is the impact of AI as a technology? Suddenly knowledge is available almost at no cost.

Yeah. Yeah, it'll be fascinating to see whatever I say right now, what happens a week from now, 2 weeks from now, a month from now, and how that perspective changes, right? Because one of the things AI brings us is the constant change.

Back to the change you mentioned in the beginning. Yeah.

One of the things that I noticed with AI and that knowledge is freely available to anyone, right? There is no that level of expertise. It just feels like you just have to write the right prompt and you can get it, right? But I think that AI frequently gives us skimming the top answers or answers that are focused in a certain area, let's say. And we don't know if it's skimming the top or focused in a certain area unless we have the expertise to recognize what could be missing from it.

Right.

Or how complete it is or what's happening there. So I think it produces an illusion of knowledge, and I think we lose a lot of the depth of expertise, essentially. I also get concerned about the studies that I see coming out where when we are asking AI to do something for us, our brains are so efficient that we very quickly start to kind of shut down that operating aspect of ourselves, right? And now, now that ability, that functionality, that expertise lives over there. It doesn't live within us anymore, right?

Yeah.

We lose the ability to think in that way or to do those things. So those things scare me. Those things scare me with how we're bringing it in. I use it all the time and I'm usually using it for things like, how do I get this embedded in my website? What is the code or something, right? Something that I don't mind that I'm not learning a deep expertise in personally. Other people, absolutely, right? But this isn't something for me. But I don't know, I do see it kind of shifting the idea of knowledge as an expertise and it becomes more about how are you able to apply it? and implement it, then do you have it, right? But those things are so tightly intertwined for me that it's hard to extract it. I don't know what's going to happen. I feel both nervous about it and kind of like every time a new technology is introduced, people get nervous, right?

Yes.

So it's— we keep moving. Yeah, it's an interesting thing, right? Is it about— I don't know. I don't see a lot of— the leaders that I work with now are not necessarily I have the answer leaders. They are very much, I have an idea, or I have an aspiration, or I have a great group of people, and where do we keep going? But I don't see— the people I'm interacting with are not in the position because of the knowledge that they have, necessarily. But your face is making me think that you interact with different types of leaders.

Not necessarily. I work a lot with corporates. So I hear about leaders. I don't work— so I'm not coaching corporate.

Yeah.

Leaders, um, as you would.

Yeah.

Um, so, and then I wonder, I wonder whether the teams that are speaking about their leaders, are they the same leaders that then on the other side of the table are the aspiring leaders, those who ask questions and then confronted with the team, we're all humans.

Right, right.

And communication fails and breaks down and we don't even know.

Yeah. And they were just in the group meeting where they're all figuring out together. And then when they go talk to their team, it makes it sound like they knew, right? They knew the answer. Here's where it is, right? Yeah. The perception of that.

Fascinating.

Super interesting. What do you think about AI? What do you think about AI and facilitation and leadership and all of it?

Similar. I think what makes me nervous is that the moment we have infinite data, we can basically connect everything with everything and every— we can find an answer or we can justify anything. I'm thinking of my, um, of research projects, right? Empirical research projects where my statistics professor said at some point, um, I don't trust any statistic that I haven't faked myself. Right. Right. And then the data mining.

Yeah.

You just crunch the data as long as you find, right, whatever supports your hypothesis. And the more data you have, the higher the probability that you'll find something that will support your hypothesis. Um, and then it's worthless, basically. So this is sort of—

Going back to that too much information comment you made earlier. Yeah.

Yeah. Um, and then If we rely on that, then how can we manipulate it? Or are we taking the wrong path because of that? And then where's the critical thinking that you also mentioned? So we ask one question, we take the best answer because our brain became too lazy to actually dig deeper, or if we don't know that we could.

Mm-hmm.

What I love, I started working with AI asking the question, and what else?

Mm-hmm.

It's beautiful.

Yeah.

So much more coming up.

There's always more. There's always more.

Is that true? Are you sure?

Right, right. My, my favorite question these days, in fact, I was just on typing before we started talking, was, are you being overly supportive or are you adequately representing both the critiques and of what we're talking about? And it's hilarious. Like, it'll, it'll start being like, oh, maybe I am being over-supportive. And then you start to get in a cycle of wondering if it's just agreeing with you again.

Right.

Yeah.

Oh, very interesting. Because I think that's the other thing, that working too much with AI, especially with the newer models, they're so supportive. And, oh, Miriam, this idea is brilliant.

Always.

And then it's more, it's more, it's nicer to engage with AI because I get so many compliments than with the podcast guest who starts to disagree with me.

Right.

Where are we? And then I think not to unlearn the joy of being in the debate and being intellectually challenged and being disagreed with. When you spoke, I was wondering, well, you said, to what extent are we sure that we are just extracting the, the upper layer of the knowledge and not going deeper? I wonder whether AI, if it's really efficient, it will assume that you are looking for the same information as the majority of the other users.

Mm-hmm.

So that's what you get. So unless you ask really precise questions, and for asking precise questions you need to know a lot. Yeah, yeah, you get the average.

Yeah, and, and it— everything becomes the average. There's no, like— so we both facilitate, right? And depending on what the client is looking for, they might prefer your facilitation or mine. But when we use the AI, everything just becomes the same, right? It becomes the average of that.

And then again, we're at this— if we are not authentic, whatever that means, yeah, um, but try to fit in, try to live up to a certain image, then there won't be any difference. Whereas what makes us stand out is, right, this quirkiness, the edges, right, the imperfection.

The things that you uniquely see based on your perspective and your position, right? And All that you— yeah, exactly.

And then it's less important to have the million other perspectives. Yes, they exist. It's great. And sometimes it's awesome to just have one lens.

Yeah.

Huh.

That's a good point.

What remains your facilitation challenge?

What remains my facilitation challenge? I mean, my mind goes a couple of places. It could be what's difficult for me, or it could be what's the next thing that I'm trying to learn, or it could be If these are not the same thing. Yeah, not necessarily. So, so one of the things I'm trying to learn more about is neurodiversity facilitation, um, multicultural intelligence, just, just bringing that more in. But it's not necessarily difficult for me in the sense that I don't know what I don't know. It's not a challenge. And I'm like, oh, I did it wrong, right? Or I wish I would have done it differently.

Um, before we get into the other one, because that's also interesting, What is it that you think, you believe you would do differently or better if you had more knowledge or skill on neurodivergent facilitation?

Yeah.

Multicultural facilitation.

I think that there are assumptions that I bring that are not necessarily universally shared, right, about what is the best way to dig into content or how we are interacting with authority. in a certain space, or even the idea that everyone should have a voice in the conversation, that is culturally located.

Mm-hmm.

And it's culturally very uncomfortable for some other folks, right? That's, that's never our aspiration. That is not us doing good work together, right? So even just that kind of awareness of what space am I entering into and what is the ideal in this world, what is the conversation they wish they could be having, right? It's not just my assumption about what I wish I could be having in that space. It's what is this group and what's different about those things. I think there are so many things, especially when we start talking about like national culture. It's the fish swimming in the water where we have no idea that this is even a thing, right? This is just basic humanity, but not necessarily.

Yeah. And then if we challenge it, are we challenging it just out of our ignorance because of our cultural lens?

Right.

For instance, Yeah, I love your examples. Um, everyone should have a say and equal share. There are cultures where this is simply not true.

Right.

And who are we to challenge that?

Exactly. Yes. Yeah. Yes. So that's one I'm aware of, but I don't know all the ones I'm not aware of. Right. So I want to learn more about that and what could come up. And similarly with different types of neurodivergence, right? What are the things that make you feel comfortable in that space? They will differ based on how you process, how your mind works. Right? So even just the idea of, first I want you to reflect on paper, then we'll do in pairs, then we'll do a group, right? That's a great process for a lot of people. And for some people, it's anxiety-producing. And there's a different process that I could offer options or be more flexible with depending on what tends to be right in different ways of processing.

And then there's another bucket, which is trauma-informed facilitation.

What's that?

There is how to deal with potential either groups or individuals who have been traumatized.

Oh, trauma-informed. I thought you were saying trauma-in. And I was like, oh, there's a new one I've never heard of. Trauma-informed. Exactly. Exactly. How do we bring those aspects in? And how many group meetings— I mean, work meetings, we might call it trauma with a small t, but they can be traumatic, right? How is this— yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah. But then if I think about what is the thing that I walk away from meetings being like, ooh, did I do it this time? It is the holding the tension between who I've contracted with and their goals and the group as a whole, right? I know, like, whenever we talk facilitation, we're like, the entire room is our client, the entire room is our client. And I just find over and over in reality, yes, and who I contracted with is— they're almost equal clients, right?

And I, um, I love that example so much because it was just last week I interviewed David. And for David, it was very clear. There's one client, he contracted with this client, and the session is there to get to the goal of his client. Full stop. And I was fascinated because I thought the facilitator is there in service to the group.

Mm-hmm.

And then to Again, see that, yeah, there are different facilitators with different approaches.

Yeah.

Different understandings. And then, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and for me, it's the, how do I know, I know this is always a tension. And so how am I preparing for it in my contracting, in how I'm interacting, in getting permission for this to be the approach, right? That contracting leader is on board with that idea. Or what their role is going to be or how that works. But it's one of those things that for me is always attention, and I never feel like I was right down the line this time I did it. It's always a thing.

Yeah, because our stories come in, um, cognitive dissonance. Yes, I want to be the facilitator who is there for the entire group. Yes, and I want my, my invoice to be paid.

Yes, I love that part.

Yeah, yeah. Or I really want to be there for the group and I want to keep that client.

Right. Right.

So they're very down-to-earth challenges, trade-offs to make.

Yeah. And how do we decide what is actually serving the group?

Yes. Who are we? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Because if we are there for the group, helping them voice something, we don't have to go back on Monday morning and fix it.

And we don't have all the context and all of the what's happening. Like, we're not experts in the system. We're just experts in the process.

Yeah.

Right? And so whose voice are we— there's always more context, there's always more information. Whose voice are we leaning into in that moment? And I don't know if this person just got into an argument with that leader, right? And that this isn't actually what desperately needs to be talked about. It's a personal issue or not, right? I have to trust the group and the person I've contracted with to a degree. That's, that's a core part for me as we make those decisions. And they're not always equal. I think I feel like there's a little bit aspect of It might be a naive desire of mine to feel like I've got that exactly right. It might be one of those things that is context and situationally dependent, right? And what's right for this group.

We, um, before being live, we spoke about the episode that I recorded, um, with the hot air balloon pilot. Yes, Josie. And I found it fascinating that to hear from her in a very different context that the silent person Knows how to take care of themselves. Whereas very often facilitators in a workshop space assume that the person who's silent is the most vulnerable. We need to help them have a voice, uh, take care of them. Where the loudest are, they take care of themselves. But in the context of a hot air balloon, yeah, in 2,000 feet, the loudest is very often the person who's the most scared. And then suddenly Who tells us that we are right with our judgment whom to support and give a voice?

Right, right. And how much does the context matter for that? So is the silent person knows how to take care of their fear in that scenario?

Yes.

Right. But then they actually do need more help raising their voice in this group meeting, right? And, and what is, or how much fear is involved in this meeting? Is this them taking care of themselves or is this feeling shut down? These are things that we can try to kind of get a sense of. As the interaction goes on, but we're never 100% certain, right? I mean, there's the— the group is the expert in their dynamic in some way, and it becomes more of an invitation for us. I noticed this, what does that mean to y'all, right? And what do you want to do about it?

Yeah, and it just reminds me how important it is to leave the ego outside because it can feel so good to— I know exactly what you all need, let me take care of you.

No, and I feel the minute we say I know exactly what you all need, we just lost everybody.

Yeah, of course.

Everybody. Yeah, I— for me, that's one of the most important skills that I continue to develop is that this is not about me at all. Like, there's nothing here where my per— that's what being professional in that context is, that there's no— I take nothing personally and there's no ego involved here. And I could be completely wrong and somebody correcting me is serving the group and that's what I'm here for. So I celebrate that. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, that's so much. Thank you.

Yeah. Fun conversation. Yeah.

One more question.

Yeah.

What advice would you give your younger self?

What advice would I give my younger self? It's so hard to know. I love that question, and I love asking people that question. And it's hard for me because I value each of the growth steps, right? Like, I don't want to skip any of them. Um, along the way, but it would probably be something about that. It's not personal. Nothing here is personal, right? The work that I'm here to help bring is in service to the group, and it doesn't need to be coming from me, right? The, the benefit or the value. It's more about creating that space for that work to happen. And I would love if I knew earlier all of the different ways of being, right? And all of the possibilities. of like this idea that this is the right way to do something. I think that that can kind of take me a while to set down, right? And I'd love if I knew that earlier, that there are so many rights and it needs to match your situation, your context, and your— without going into the full postmodern, right, like there is no right, right? I'm not, not necessarily going there so much, but there are so many rights. Yeah, it's not a, it's not a binary.

Especially when it comes to personal choice.

Yes.

So it's not the world to be right or that there are multiple truths. No, very often they're not. But for us, yeah.

And sometimes they are, but it's very clear. So there are multiple cultures that have different views on what is morally acceptable or preferred, right?

Yes.

And they can be completely opposite.

Yes.

And so while we might say that there is not a static universal, There is still a very culturally specific right or wrong, right? Or a way forward. I think that's— I think that, that I would love if I thought about that earlier.

You know? Yeah. Thank you so, so much, Sarah.

Oh, my pleasure. This was fun.

I loved the conversation. I, I leave with lots of food for thought.

Me too.

And I would like to thank you for holding all these threads in your mind and picking them up as we spoke when I got lost in all my shiny objects. I want to know about this. I want to know about that. Oh, let's come back to this thread.

That's the way our minds work. That's the way. Yes.

I appreciate it. Thank you so much. And if the audience want to find you, I put your contacts and website in the show notes.

Yep. Yeah, I'm really present on LinkedIn as well. That's a great place. Thank you.

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