Vodcast 310 : Listening Deeper: Finding the Questions That Need to Be Asked with Akshay Kapur

Akshay, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me.

I'm so glad to have you, and I'm very much looking forward to the conversation. I've cited you so many times after our exploration call and have seen you in action twice at the Never Done Before Festival, um, co-facilitating with Kirsten.

Loved that opportunity. Yeah, yeah, Kirsten invited me, and she's been on our podcast before.

Yes, uh, it was—

it's been— that was such a unique atmosphere to be in and be with people who just— who also were curious to learn.

Yeah, lovely. Yeah, and today I can learn about you and your work as a coach and facilitator. And I always start at the beginning. When did you start calling yourself a facilitator? And actually, do you?

Um, I don't. Uh, I'm actually an executive coach who fell into facilitating executive meetings and workshops at meetups, remote or in person. And that was based in my work with the company I work with right now, Automatic. And really thankful to Kirsten, who we just spoke about, for, you know, I really credit her for teaching me a lot of the skills that went into facilitation. Because I was coming at it from a beginner's mind, though coaching does I think, support you in asking certain questions and holding space a certain way. I really had to learn that facilitation was a different art and science altogether, and I've gotten to— gotten a crash course in that for the last 4 years.

I would be curious what you mean by that. So what are the things that are different? And I'm especially thinking of I imagine you as an executive coach suddenly facilitating their board meeting. So what would a coach do differently than facilitate? And what have you learned since?

That's a great question. You know, I think one of the things that helped me understand facilitation was that you're trying to make things easy. Right? That's what the root of the word is. And I don't think coaching is necessarily doing the same thing. I think coaching is adding enough pressure, friction, uh, almost, um, a radical honesty to the situation that prompts people to come out of their comfort zone, but not in this way of feeling discomfort, but from— to get closer to their own truth.

Hmm.

And that's how I see coaching. And with facilitation, what I had to do was make a pivot to thinking about the collective and what makes it easy for them To have a space in which to have honest conversations where I don't have to be the prompting engine. Rather, the space that's created allows them the moment they enter into the room to begin having those honest, open conversations. So it's, it's sort of the— I'm no longer I mean, I'm less necessary actually in the room when I'm— when I facilitated it well.

Yeah. And somehow the word of, um, context designer comes to my mind, how you create the context where all these things can happen for them. And what it also brings to my mind is, um, When we had our exploration call, you mentioned— we talked about the question and the importance of the question, and you said something that really resonated with me, that you try to find the question that your coachee or the group wants to be asked instead of bringing your own question and prompt to the space. Because one is about listening to what's needed, and the other one is almost an over-preparation and putting them into a direction.

Yeah, it's almost like listening to the need behind the need, right? It's that initially my sense is that coaching and facilitation is more wanted than needed. And that when it's needed, it's almost this sort of, oh, it's urgent, it's desperate, it's like we need to solve this thing. And that's surface level. Like, what, what is underneath that that is really wanted? And so then people enter and then they come in with a desire for this outcome, this result, right? For this to happen amongst the people, for them to connect better.

Mm-hmm.

And then it's that, uh, there's that fivefold why, right? Underneath that is what's the next why? Why do you want that? Why do you want that? And then why do you want— and when you get deeper into it, I think what I've found, at least both in coaching and facilitation spaces, is you're always— well, at least I'm looking for that hidden why. And in coaching, you look for it in the person. In facilitation, I think you look for it in the collective.

Yeah. And I wonder to what— it sounds like you need a lot of spaciousness to get there because you need, in order to find the real why or the real need behind the need, you have to embrace this vulnerability to look at spaces where it might hurt. Because it's— we are so good in just imagining the obvious and looking for the quick fix. But then the underlying one means looking closer to ourselves. And I wonder whether in coaching, where The coachee signs up with a desire to go there and you feel safe with the coach, then with the group it's an entire different level. And I can imagine that participants might quickly lack the patience or be maybe afraid of that, especially in an executive context.

For some reason, the word silence comes to mind because I think it's that ability to be comfortable with silence that allows either a coach or facilitator to bring that comfort into the room. You know, I'm okay for us to be quiet for a little bit. And I'm not even watchful for where it's awkward for some people, or if some people are Reflecting, processing, digesting, right? There's so many elements to silence. But it's just that, can we just be present with it? Are we waiting for the, the most impactful person or the leader in the room to speak first? Am I hesitant because I feel imposter syndrome? Do I not have domain expertise? Did I not prepare? Did I not sleep enough last night? Right? There's all these elements. that are both personal and professional to it. And so can I just sit with that? And yes, it will be uncomfortable, but I feel I've seen Kirsten do this too, where she allows for that silence to let the group pivot.

Hmm.

Not necessarily the facilitator.

I love that. And yes, it's, um, It's almost this moment where you can— the moment of truth where the facilitator holds silence up to the point where the first participant speaks, and this shifts the trust and responsibility. So facilitator shows that they trust the group, that someone will eventually speak and take ownership of the process and what happens. Um, yeah.

And also how that silence is employed with maybe the most verbose person in the room is, let's hear from other people, right? Because you're not silencing the person, but you're, you're widening the space of silence so that somebody else can jump into it.

Yeah.

So I feel like the use— I didn't even think about it this way, but the use of silence, not necessarily purposeful, but almost emergent.

Hmm.

It's what I feel like I'm calibrating for a lot of the time as both a coach and a facilitator.

And I can hear the coach mindset in that, where the use of silence becomes a coaching opportunity for self-inspect— introspection, and also for the group. So who reacts how to the silence, and what does it say to the group dynamics, and how can we play it back, basically hold the mirror to the group, and then work with whatever emerges there.

Yeah, it's beautifully said. Yeah, I agree.

And the other thing that came up, um, as you spoke is our own relationship with silence and comfort level. And I find it fascinating how our discomfort or the facilitator's discomfort would then impact the group. But it's when we give up the responsibility that we don't have to get anywhere, it's for the group, and hence we can sit there in silence.

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's this— yeah, I think I just did it, right? It's just breathing deep into not knowing what could be said next.

Yeah. And I would be curious what— if I understand correctly, you were working as an executive coach and then you were hired to facilitate the meetings. What was the need, maybe the explicit need, and then what was the need behind the need to ask you as a coach? Because I still have the impression that as a coach, especially now having experienced your presence and there is some depth that you bring to the space that is maybe counterintuitive when I think of an executive meeting that is maybe fast and getting to the point and going through the agenda and getting things done, where your style is maybe the exact opposite to that.

Energetically, that was difficult for me in the beginning. Well, I was actually hired on as an executive coach internally. And what happened was, going to your original question around the need, is there were teams that were blocked in some way. That could be around communication, delegation, managing up, Roles and responsibilities, strategy, strategic thinking. And so it didn't make sense for me to just work one-on-one with the leader or even one-on-one with each person. It just didn't scale.

Hmm.

And even if I did work with those people, I don't— I didn't know what happened after the fact. And then they went off and did whatever they did. Then they would come back and we'd revisit it a week later or 2. So in order for it to be more effective, it was that people said, hey, could you join a meeting? Or could you come to an all-team? Or could you come to the meetup? Or we're holding a strategy meeting. And through that, I got— I entered from a coaching mindset. To figure out what's happening. But then I realized that I was missing the layers of bonds or the bonds that were lacking. I was missing— I wasn't paying attention to all the elements in the room. And I would say both the individual and the collective, and also the interpersonal blockers.

Mm-hmm.

All those little pieces, the different intentionalities in the room. Sure, you want to have the goal of thinking strategically, but what does that mean to each individual? And how does that affect their budget or affects their goals? And is that aligned with the team's goals, or is that against the leads? And all of these things, though I was curious about, I didn't know how to bring them into the situation where people were put on the spot, and I realized there's so much pre-work necessary. So that was, I think, a lesson learned. Then the other one was how thinking about all those things was energetically overwhelming, because now I'm balancing— or not balancing— 5 to 10 people who have all of these elements. And leadership isn't just the person who's titled a leader. There's a domain expert, and then there's a person who is a great co-leader. There's a person who's great at discovery. And so you have to find where the best fit is in the room for the task at hand. And I didn't know how to pull on those levers. I don't know if I still do, honestly. It's more— but I'm more attentive to them.

Hmm. Thank you for walking me through that. I find it fascinating. And it almost sounded as if before you joined the meeting, I have this image of the blind man touching the different parts of the elephant in front of me.

Yes.

So you were having the coaching conversations with each of these blind men talking about a different part of the elephant.

And it's in fact a whale, right? It's like we don't even know what it is.

Yeah. And then coming to the meetings, then seeing all these pieces together in a room and being so made aware of what's missing. Because you have the personal perspective, but then there's a collective. And I think it's a beautiful example of how individuals change once they become a collective and once this group dynamic comes into play, because suddenly there are all these unvoiced expectations, everything that goes below the radar.

Mm-hmm.

People change, maybe adjust to the collective. their personality or their role, sometimes even without noticing.

Yes, that third entity, right? And that, I think that's a term in facilitation, but where I came across it first was through marriage and family therapy, where it's— there's each partner and their intentions and their communication styles, and then there's the relationship. which is the third entity. So you're tracking not just each person, but also the relationship and the permutations of that in a group of 5, 7, 10. They just expand.

Yeah. And it's interesting because you can approach this from the two extremes. You can either say, okay, only the entity, only the collective counts. How can we make this work? Or the other extreme, and that sounds— that's where you came from, is okay, let's Look at every individual, and if every individual feels safe enough, confident enough to bring their best self to the collective, then we'll also be at the best.

Yeah, that's where I went back to, um, does the space allow people to show up in their, in their best self, in their highest capacity? Have we dealt with that beforehand? And I think what it's come down to recently for me is that so much of the work happens before You even enter into the room. Whereas coaching, one-on-one especially, can be emergent. It doesn't have to require a tremendous amount of preparation. In fact, sometimes knowing too much about the person can be a hindrance. So he— yeah, in teamwork, in cross-functional work and cohort work, group work, knowing more about what's happening gives you A little bit of a clue. Uh, of course it's your interpretation, but I think maybe the best— I still use the, I know a lot about them, and the moment I get in the room, I forget it all, very purposefully, because I don't want my bias to enter. It's more just want to verify if that information is accurate.

That's a very good point. I, uh, I had moments where clients would give me a list and, uh, and even a file of CVs of all the participants who would be coming to a workshop. And I deliberately, I didn't look at it because if I know who is the most important person in the room, if I know about all these figures, um, yeah. There might be a bias.

Yeah.

Consciously or unconsciously.

Yeah.

It's not helpful.

Agreed.

Yeah.

I do want to know a lot though now, and I'm thinking about what you're saying and how that would work in a facilitation, because I— that is a concrete difference. I spend a lot of time learning about the people and their interpersonal relationships within the team. Or the group, where, where they're strong, where they're weak, where there's conflict. And it gives me— I guess it's the map is not the territory. It gives me a map, but when I walk in, I still have to pay attention to the topography of the room. Yeah.

And what I just realized is, um, that it depends.

Right.

Because I was thinking, okay, is what I just said, is this actually true? I mean, it is true for the context when we're brainstorming, when we want to come up with ideas, where we're in this kind of early phase. When we're in the context of strategy, where there is already something that is predefined, when there is a framework, when there are boundaries, Maybe I do want to know who's the decision taker. Or if it's a workshop because there have been challenges, conflicts in the team, then of course we need to know what's going on so that we can purposefully— Be aware of that. Yes, because then being totally ignorant—

It could be tone deaf to what's going on.

Exactly. And then you don't have to figure it out and learn it all on the spot. It would be a missed opportunity.

Yeah, that's been really right. How you're all— it depends. You're always calibrating to how much you need to know and in which areas you don't, which areas you don't want to introduce bias. But I think that's part of the— I think you said about silence, right? It's part of the process of saying, oh, now I've come to a conclusion. And now you have to be wary. Wait, is that right? Why do I have— what does it matter if I have come to a conclusion? What about the team? So I think it's part of that process of questioning what's happening and also questioning whether you feel like you're accurate.

Yeah. And now So there's another layer now that comes to my mind is the internal versus the external coach and facilitator. So you're internal to the organization. So you have, um, by definition already more background information because you understand the context. But then also there's maybe less Objectivity, if I dare to say so.

This is such a great question. I've been struggling with this for the last year and a half because in the beginning, in the first few years, you're still learning the organization, you're still learning the culture, the org chart, the influencers in the room, in the company. And so you're still coming in with this open-endedness and that calibration, that maneuvering that you're doing. Then over time, there are certain truths. They're malleable, but there are certain truths that emerge. And they're there for a moment. For example, right, who Who is leading the charge? Who is the decision maker? Who does have veto power? Is it collective? Is it democratic? How do we— is it, you know, consensus-based? How do we know what's happening? And depending on— it depends, right? Depending on those pieces, you kind of know for a moment that there is more certainty than there isn't. And that I struggled with because I initially thought of that as a bias, that I'm no longer objective, that I'm now subjectively bringing something in because I know too much because I'm internal. But then I thought about what is the value of bringing that into the room?

Hmm.

And now it became a matter of timing. And I'm— I don't have an answer here. Right? None of us do. It depends. But it's that if I feel like I've come to a point of greater certainty than not, then my next question is, will bringing in this data point be useful for the group? And sometimes it won't be, and sometimes it will. And I'm watchful of that now. Yeah.

It's very interesting because what also comes to my mind is when we are faced with challenges or restrictions that we cannot change, how can we actually turn them into our superpowers or the unique value proposition? So to what extent can your insider view support you, the groups, the organization? And then I think it's the, the important skill of the coach to balance this privacy. So what is information that you can disclose that, as you said, that will be helpful for the group? What's not?

And I like what you said about unique value proposition, because I'm looking for you what is actually unique here. that's separate from the team that the team couldn't find on its own. I think actually each facilitator can tap into that because of the due diligence you do beforehand. That if you're speaking to, let's say there's 7 people and you're speaking to those 7 people individually, maybe you speak to the sponsor and the leader, and maybe you speak in groups.

Mm-hmm.

And this is all before it happens. You're just in a unique place of finding out all this patterned information. Because those parties don't— they don't get to be an outsider looking in. So providing that information when it's useful could be quite helpful to the group to know that, oh, collectively it sounds like this is the thing that's holding you all back. I just want to check that with the group.

True, because you can then also be more provocative or speaking out the things that nobody dared to speak out. And it's funny, yesterday I recorded an episode with Carrie and we spoke about that, all about the phrase that all the wisdom is in the room already. And she mentioned when she says that, she includes herself because she's also in the room.

Right.

And what you just said perfectly fits to that because yes, we're having, I have pre-conversations with participants before a workshop and then they would disclose things that are personal, that are their own perspective. And then if I'm not using this in the workshop, of course not to, not to disclose the information that they shared privately, but to make sense and to bring the awareness of the collective to a different level. Um, it would be a wasted opportunity.

I love that, what Kerry said, what you brought in there, because that was the click for me. I didn't— I wasn't including myself in the room. I think there's a lot of training for coaches and facilitators to not do so, and at least from coaches, that's my understanding. But the moment I did and recognized myself, especially as internal coach and facilitator, that I am a participant, I am an employee along with others, that there is something I'm bringing in. But I just have to be careful that I don't, um, you know, I don't push that as an agenda. It's an additive thing. It's not something that I'm overlaying on everything.

Yeah, yeah, that's The fasciculation bit, right? So how can we add to the group without having our own agenda, which is more difficult, I guess, being internal? And I also wonder to what extent you have struggled, or there was the— there might be thoughts how much you can push a group or challenge them. Because I think very often as someone who comes in from the outside, even if it's just outside the team, you can be provocative. You, you have to be courageous actually not to take their needs at face value. As you mentioned, what they say they need might actually not be what they need. So how far can you push them being internal?

That's a great point because the external facilitator Doesn't even maybe know that they've pushed a little too far, and they don't face the repercussions of it either. I think that's the thing about forgetting, right? It's forgetting that, you know, because ultimately, even for an internal facilitator, my sense is that it's for the benefit of the collective.

Mm-hmm.

To be able to nudge and be provocative. I'm not doing it to showcase a skill, or that, you know, I'm the facilitator in the room, I have control. It's always for the benefit of the company or the collective or their alignment between the alignment of the collective with the company. So if I hesitate, to provoke, that's also a detriment, even though it may have negative repercussions. But then I have to question— I think this is where the coach part comes in, is I can have a conversation with the leader or the people in the group and say, well, why is this a provocation?

Hmm. Yes. I love that so much because it reminds me of the, of triggers or provocations that only become provocations because they hit on something, they touch something that is sensitive. And it might not be sensitive for anyone else.

Right, exactly.

And so almost like a collective trauma reaction.

Yeah, it's that little bit of discomfort, or maybe a lot of for some people, but it's For the benefit of the group. And I think that one person for sure that must keep holding that mindset is the facilitator. Is I'm not— I may push a little too far. I may ask a really tough question, but it's never to provoke somebody to feel a certain way or to diminish. It's to enlarge the collective's intelligence of the system.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think that's something that we forget to ask very often because it's uncomfortable, um, is why does it feel provocative? Why does it feel uncomfortable if for others it might not? And this will then lead us in the right direction. And what I hear from your Um, and what you say is almost trusting your gut. So if you have the impression that this is the question to be asked or the, um, the thing to be poked, then you almost have to follow it because holding back would, I can imagine, then also get you out of your flow. Because then you start to overthink and to obey by rules that might actually not be true. And then this entire overthinking starts. You walk on eggshells.

And then you're not in the room.

Yeah. Yeah.

Then you're in your head. In your head. Yeah. I think I think about that in 2 ways though, right? I love what you said about being in the flow, because sometimes when you're in the flow, the question comes before you've even articulated it in your head. And that's so scary whenever that happens. Like, oh, did I say that? I never wrote that down. I never thought that, but the question came and suddenly there's a silence. I don't even know where it came from. And likely it came from just the need of the group or the emergence in the moment. And then there's those other questions which you've noticed, okay, this is coming up over and over and over again. When is the right time for me to ask this? Because it needs to be asked.

Yeah, yeah. Coming back to what you meant, what you mentioned in our exploration call, the, the question that the group wants to be asked and not the question that you have prepared. And to channel that, you have to be fully present.

Yeah, because then you're almost voicing for the group. You're not voicing As a facilitator.

Yes. And for this to happen, you have to feel psychologically safe.

The facilitator or the group?

The facilitator. Because we can only get into the flow state if we are not in our head, if we're not thinking of the repercussions, if we're not overthinking the question that we want to channel.

I'm just pausing to think about that because I don't know if I feel safe in those situations. In fact, they feel quite— I wouldn't say unsafe, but quite uncomfortable momentarily. And you, like, you even talked, you even said trauma, right? You've maybe triggered something that could be traumatic for them that may not be traumatic for anybody else. And even if you felt safe a moment before, it doesn't feel like that a moment after.

And it's interesting because when you say it feels uncomfortable, for me, that if you then do it anyway, for me, that's a sign of psychological safety, doing what feels uncomfortable.

I guess maybe where I'm getting stuck is the— I don't know that it's uncomfortable until it's said. Like, I might be totally comfortable. Like, if I know that it will be uncomfortable and I say it anyway, I agree, that's psychological safety, right? You feel like you have enough roundedness in order to say something like that. You have enough trust in the group to say it sometimes. And that's an emergent question, is I'm feeling good, the group's feeling good, and then you suddenly say something. It's not a mistake, it's not something wrong, it's something necessary that you voice for the group. And you realize, oh, I just stepped from high comfort to creating potentially a trauma response in the group that needs to be worked through. But now I'm in this extremely vulnerable space with everybody else. I have no idea where we're going to go next.

And, and this can be a beautiful moment to really get— go deep then with the group. Um, and I'm terribly sorry because I'm not 100% present because my friend called me 4 times right now. Every time I pressed her away. So just give me 1 second.

Yeah, please, please. Great.

She thought that, uh, And I would be curious whether in these moments you would voice your discomfort or your, um, voice your thoughts, whether you touched upon something sensitive.

I know it keeps going back to it depends, but I I think that can be such a key move. And I learned that it's become a key move to, to, to verbally say, oh, I think I stepped on something, right? But I think in other moments, silence can be really helpful. In other moments, humor can be really helpful, right?

Hmm.

You could say, oh, I really stepped on something, right? That saying it that way versus whoa. It sounds like I stepped on some electricity, right? That's a different approach, and any one of those could be relevant. But I think that's where I go with the gut instinct when you were talking about earlier, is you have to allow yourself to, to go with your gut and say, what would this— actually, you don't even think. I don't think you have enough time to think about what would land with this group. You just keep going.

Yeah. And it's true that, um, in these situations, humor can be such a good way to release the electricity.

Yeah.

Um, and then take it from there.

Yeah, I learned even that a break can be useful so that people can process in their own way. Some people like to process You know, by walking. Some people like to process with each other, with a, with a somebody they trust. Some people like to go to the facilitator and talk to them about it. And it's, again, the length of the break could be 5 minutes, it could be 15, who knows. Yeah, I think there's so many moves available.

Yeah. And then I I wonder, because there— I've had the conversations before where facilitators may or may not articulate their own discomfort.

Hmm.

And right now I just wonder to what extent this could actually take the attention away from the group, which can then be a trap. So the facilitator Um, instead of being okay with their own discomfort and just sitting with it, trying to release that. Um, and then it almost feels like, um, um, like a quick way out, an escape from a situation that could have gone deeper if, uh, if we just Allow ourselves and the group to sit with it. Yeah, thinking about that.

The idea that came in my mind was, um, was more like a power dynamic, right? What is the power dynamic in the room? Meaning, I'm thinking about a specific situation where one of the leaders who was pretty vocal became silent when the conversation started to head a different direction. And I couldn't understand whether they were silent because they were not— they felt out of their league in understanding the context, or if they felt like this was an unnecessary conversation, or Who knows what their thinking was? But then I realized that I was over-indexing on their thinking, and that I was leaning more towards the leader in the room instead of harnessing the other voices. And I had to pause my mind for— from working with that power dynamic and say, nope, this is just what's happening. There's actually an immense engagement in the room. Let's let that happen. If they feel like it's not worth their time, they can always get up and leave, which could be indicative, but they're not. And then I can always turn to them and elicit from them what's going on. Like, there's all these things available, but I realized how much I was getting into my head with that power dynamic present.

And what a gift to be aware of that. Yeah. Because, yeah.

No, go ahead.

As you mentioned, because there are so many levels. Is it about the topic? Is it about us? Um, and then there's maybe a fear creeping in, or did I do something wrong? Do I have to do something? Is it about the topic? Um, and then maybe they were just drifting in their daydream, or they got very curious about what the group said, or they realized that they forgot to Forgot to call someone and, uh, right.

They, they saw a bird outside, right? Exactly. Yeah, you don't know. And I think those are the assumptions. I think that's what I was going to say is what I love about both facilitation and coaching is they're filled with gifts of self-reflection. They're filled with ways for us to check our assumptions, to be present. To be with ourselves, to recognize when there's bias present from us, from others, all of those pieces. I mean, there's such a conversation behind the conversation.

Yeah. And the moment we, we see it, we can work with it. Because I think in the past when I started working with groups, I would, I would get triggered a lot by individuals. Um, not that I would display them or live my triggers out, but, um, and, and these triggers then provoke a judgment.

Mm-hmm.

Oh, this is this kind of person. That's that kind of person. They're full of themselves. They're shy, they're not courageous. And now every time that there is an emotional reaction in me, I'm like, oh, this is teaching me something about myself.

Yeah, it's almost like this, um, and I wonder if one could even avoid it, right? It's almost like a rite of passage. You go in You're triggered by the fact that there's a lot of energy in the room, there's power dynamics in the room, there's people who talk too much, people talk too little, or people who say things— maybe they use swear words, right? Whatever is going on, and suddenly you're feeling like, oh my God, this is so against what I'm used to.

Hmm.

And then that happens, and next time you go in, you're like, okay, I think I'm ready. And And then suddenly the group is quiet. Oh my God, now what am I gonna do? Am I supposed to fill in the space? Right? Again, you're talking in your head. And then you go in the next time and you think, you know, I'm gonna label each person this, I don't know, name so that I can have an image of them that I can work with. And you realize, oh, they don't represent that image at all. And now you're confused. You didn't work through that. Then you finally just come in the room and it's almost like shoulders down, like, hey, what are we going to talk about today? Hey, what's the most important thing in the room right now? You know, what, what feels like— where do we want to go? And suddenly, I— that's why I wonder if you can even avoid that rite of passage. Like, even me saying what I'm saying, anybody who listens to it, I don't know if you can avoid going through that on your own.

I think you cannot. I agree 100%, because it's, it's almost peeling off these layers on ourselves so that we can be more and more comfortable with whatever thrown at us and whatever we get ourselves into. Um, it's, yeah, it's all about self-acceptance because at the end of the day, all the triggers is points at something that we haven't accepted inside of us or wound that hasn't healed.

And the more you accept yourself, the more you accept the wounds in others, right? You get practice. And saying, I don't know where that's coming from. It could come from so many places, but am I willing to stay long enough to listen?

Yeah, yeah. And with compassion. I listened to a podcast— oh, it was with Andrea Gibson, um, and she said the most dangerous people are the wounded people, um, and she spoke about Those who feel angry, who act out, um, they usually do that because they're, um, they're wounded, they're traumatized, they're, um, they're not themselves. So if we can, um, stand in that storm, um, because we have done the self-work and self-acceptance, then we can also help them to Calm their nervous system down, self-accept.

Yeah, it's what you said earlier, that what's provocative for that group or that person may not be provocative for somebody else.

Yeah.

So if you sense that you're provoked by somebody else's woundedness, then you're, you're the one that's actually triggered. And then you give them more permission to act from that woundedness. But if they're woundedness, which can be dangerous, is landing in this sort of open, accepting space. There's, there's nowhere for them to go.

Yeah, yeah, it's a difficult part of the work.

Yeah, I, I just, I love it though, because I feel like every single session that I get to facilitate I come out with something that deepens my relationship with my children, deepens my relationship with myself, or my neighbor, you know, or a sport. Like, it's like it— the application of it is unlimited.

Hmm.

Because we're the body-mind that's moving around the world. And We get to play in a really specific way in our facilitation, in our coaching, and that changes us as we leave the room. And I've become more attuned to that and how much it changes you.

Yeah, yeah. What remains your facilitation challenge?

My answer, I think, is contextual because I'm— I do a lot of work remotely and some work in person. They're very different environments. So in person, it's really energy management. I would actually say it's how much I'm standing. I know that sounds really simplistic, but I didn't realize how much a facilitator stands in a day. And if you're doing a multi-day event, Like, I got home and I was physically exhausted. I had to massage my legs. I had to rub oil in them. It was— I wore compression socks the next time because I realized I don't get to sit. Like, it— I don't know, it was weird. Maybe I was doing it wrong. I don't know. But it was— I sensed, at least for me, my facilitation was a lot of standing in person. Now, remote You can really manage your energy quite well. And it's, I think, remotely facilitating the challenges, attunement. It's, you know, when is— like, what does it mean for somebody to be off video? What does it mean? For somebody to elect not to go into a breakout? What does— like you were saying, in a room you can say, oh, maybe they were looking outside the window at a bird. You can't quite say that in a remote atmosphere. And I find in-person attunement, because of the energy that's available, to be much more accessible than remotely. So in a remote environment, I think it's leaning into that a little bit more, making it more explicit. So I'm— those are ways I'm working through the challenges. What does that mean? Can I just be explicit about it?

I love that. And you, you sent me on a total explorative journey there. Um, with the question, what does it mean to be off video? What does it mean for you to be off video as the participant who turns the video off? Because so often we get stuck in, what does it mean for me that they're off video?

Right.

I cannot read their energy. I don't know whether they're paying attention. I'm out of control. Um, and if it's one person, that might be okay. If an entire group, as it did to me. And then to really get into this empathy, what does it do for the other person? How they— and then how can we create a space where they can still be present, although off video? Because what I hear in what you say is— There's a reason why they are off video, um, and it's usually not bad will because otherwise they wouldn't be there.

Mm-hmm. Right. And some people, they are feeling sick or they have a cold or they're wiping their nose and they just don't want to be on video. It'd be as simple as that. For others, they maybe find it— they're not as comfortable being on video remotely. They prefer to be actually more engaged when they're off video. You just— I think it's harder to— and I've been working more on eliciting that before the fact. Again, in the preparation, trying to understand, like, I know I'm going more into how do I work through the challenge. But I— it's the more I can front load in the prep, the easier it is To know that— what does— you know, I might even say, hey, I know people go off videos sometimes. I just want to know, are you comfortable being on video? Uh, I know I invite people to be off mute, but maybe you want to be on mute, that's fine. Maybe you have kids in the background, maybe there's construction noise. Just want to understand what your environment's like. Now suddenly they feel seen and heard where they are locally. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. You allow them to, yeah, you do see their context and you give them choice by pointing out that it's okay.

It saves them a lot from a lot of guessing, you know, in the moment. It's like the stress of what's happening here. I don't know.

And also allows them to be more empathetic towards you, realizing what's going on for you when you're When you see someone off video, uh, on mute, um, and then they can decide, is this something that I want to, to do or not?

Yeah.

And it's interesting what you say about the different, yeah, levels of energy management in the room and online. I can, I can relate to that, and I can also relate to the lots of standing and walking and, uh, In-person workshops.

It's museum walking too. You're walking a few steps and then a few steps back. So I learned that during a lot of standing, during breaks, I would just sit. I'm just gonna go find like a couch to sit on.

I often sit on tables.

Oh, that's good.

Because it still gives me—

Yeah, how come you do that?

It still gives me this kind of view of what's going on.

Oh.

So I'm a little bit higher up, so I have an overview, literally. Because sitting on the chair then suddenly makes, in some context, either makes me feel too passive or too much part of the group. So standing is, okay, I'm mobile and I agile and I have an overview, but then sitting on a table puts me a little bit away, but not—

Your vantage point, your perspective. That's so neat. It literally physically, like we were talking about topography, yeah, it changes the perspective of who you are for others, and then also for you and the group, how you see the group.

Yeah. And it also, it might be perceived as unprofessional to be sitting on a table, but it's comfortable and, and then gives permission. Yeah. Gives permission to, okay, just make yourself comfortable because it's a workshop.

Right. Yeah. I do this with leaning and I feel like that's where I'm trying to recover my legs a little bit, but I just lean against the wall for a while. I'm there, but I'm not there.

Yeah, yeah, I let you do your thing.

Yeah.

And it's, um, and it's a different effort to manage energy online. That's true. Although I find it easier than to work with music, um, and to channel my energy. I have the impression that my energy has a bigger impact. Um, on the group when I'm online than I'm when I'm offline.

What do you mean? How you— how do you work with music?

Um, so I would, whether it's a rather slow piece of music that feels more contemplative and brings the energy down or something more upbeat where almost people cannot resist but dance.

Um, oh, oh, you bring that into the room on a remote Yeah, yeah, I always use music in a way.

And usually always when participants come out of— from a breakout room, I always play music unless something happened that distracted me so much that I had to take care of. Because it, um, it signals them, because sometimes they just get kicked out of the breakout, so they're suddenly back in the full session. So they have a clue, um, an auditory clue that they're back. Um, and it sets the atmosphere of, oh, do we want to have a kind of inward-looking conversation, or, oh, are we harvesting some crazy ideas?

I love that. Yeah, I didn't realize the entrances back into the room, to use music to Imbue a certain mood, allow people to have permission to relax or be energetic. It's lovely.

And it also helps me.

Yeah, you're, you're part of the group.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Um, what is it that you would have loved to Know before, uh, your advice to your younger self.

I guess in this case my younger facilitator self would have been about 4 years ago, but, um, I actually think it's quite similar from coaching and facilitation. It's that I used to think that the coaching or the facilitation began when I— when the event started, the scheduled event. Let's say we're meeting on February 20th. Okay, that when we get there, that's when the work's gonna happen. But now I know it starts the moment you begin talking.

Hmm.

The sponsor or the client. Because of how you communicate, how you ask questions, how you model showing up. It's in every single interaction with them that you're— it's not like you're manipulating, but you're imbuing your way of being to see if that's a fit. Because then they don't get there and realize you're just a totally different person. That's one part of it. The other part is that you've— even as I meet people in the prep beforehand, the prep calls, I'm still facilitating each of those calls. I'm setting the guidelines or the norms, what's permitted.

Mm-hmm.

I, I love using randomness. Like, randomness is okay. Like, just saying that in each of the— that's a norm that I really enjoy, that a lot of people say, I don't want to go on a tangent. And I think, no, no, please do. Please go on that. Let— that's okay.

What's about this randomness? I would love to hear more about that.

Why? I think it's You know, people often have this performativeness or preparedness to them of, well, I'm this role and I need to show up this way, or this prep call, they want to know this from me, and okay, I'll give them this. But then when they go off in a random direction or in a tangent, they're actually showing a lot more honesty.

Hmm.

It, it's, uh, It's an unprepared, open dialogue, and I'm curious how they are there. And that's why I want to— I, I just state it right in the beginning, is we're going to talk about a few things that we're going to do on February 20th, but by the way, randomness is welcome. Think of something.

I love that. And I talk about it. I, I haven't looked at the tangents from this perspective. And if someone goes on a tangent, it means that they're passionate about something, that it's important to them. And so they start rambling.

Right. And it's— we call it rambling, but maybe it's passion, maybe it's novelty, interest.

Or it's discomfort. So what I observe very often is someone says something, and then it could be a full stop, but then they would continue and then explain it in a different way and yet another different way and then start, yeah, and then start apologizing.

Sometimes you just reel it back in, right? Sometimes you, but you always have that option. As a facilitator. So I'd rather lean towards let it be okay so you don't hold back. Just, I can always reel it in if need be.

Yeah, yeah. And then it's just about not missing the moment where it could go off on for too long so that you lose the group, right? Um, or that it becomes too passionate and then suddenly there's Either too much craziness or, yeah, or anger suddenly in the room.

Right.

How do you deal with big emotions in your sessions? Very random question, just popped up.

Yeah, meaning, meaning, um, like Big passionate positive or big negative?

Yeah, the, um, suddenly anger coming in or ranting.

Um, I just, I guess I keep going back to what you said earlier, is that what's provocative for one person isn't provocative for another. And so I'd be curious if that anger, you know, it— is it actually landing as anger for the group?

Hmm.

Is it landing as passion? Are they angry or am I interpreting it as such? Is it creating a discomfort that we won't be able to come back from or necessary discomfort that we need to go into further? So it's, I don't see it as, you know, a boundary that I'm going to stop it when it happens. It's, I'm trying to understand what is its function here? Why did it even emerge? Where did that come from? And I think that there is a timer on. I agree with that, that it's not because you can't just stew in that and let people stew in that for a while. But I still want to give it a little bit of time before that decision is made to pause or shift.

And I, I loved what you just said. Um, it's a, it's a beautiful second layer to the observation that a provocation to one is not a provocation to another. And what sounds like anger to one might not sound like anger to the other, or might not even be an expression of anger.

Yeah, or even somebody saying something not in a loud voice, but it comes off very hurtful. That now could be the thing that you need to be attentive to, because they've actually controlled their anger But said something that is quite angry.

And how do you call that in or call that out? Because there are now so many options.

Yeah, right. I feel like that's the tough part about facilitation is you have almost unlimited options. I don't know. I think sometimes I feel like I lean into it is, oh, that's a new emotion. Right? Where is that coming from? Can we actually allow that in the room? And I look around. Is that— is that okay to be here? Does anybody else feel this way? Right? Is this a conflict that's shown up before? Is this new? Like, suddenly there's a questioning that I might make explicit. It's not happening in my head.

Mm-hmm.

I'm revealing it to the room so that we can dialogue on it together. And then the person doesn't feel like they're a singular attacker or they're a singular, um, separate entity.

But they're gifting something to the group.

Yeah, I think that's sort of where I prefer to be. But otherwise, I think it's, no, you know, where did that come from? Like, I don't— it's not the content. I care about the context.

And I love that because it's— it also shows that an emotion, in this case anger, is not something that happens in a vacuum.

Mm-hmm.

So isolating the person with their emotion is not helping in this context. If it happens in the group, with a group, then there is something about the group that has provoked that and One way or another. So giving it back to the group and asking, okay, so here it is, we have another participant. Their name is anger. Shall we invite them in? Have they been here before? That's good.

I like that. We have another participant in the room. I'm going to use that one.

Yeah, it's a beautiful way to To acknowledge that it's not, it's not one person. Right.

Another participant in the room, their name is Anger. I like— there's a comedy to that. Yeah, yeah, it's being sensitive to it too, right? It's not making fun of it. It's saying, it's allowing, it's Truly inviting it, not as a way to mess with it. It's like, okay, now it's here. Can we accept it? How long can we accept it? What does it mean?

Yeah. Yeah. And does this also then refer to what we discussed in our preparation call, the, the agenda item that we didn't even know that was necessary?

Yeah, I, I think what we spoke about was that sometimes whether it's in a coaching call or in a facilitation, people feel like they have these 3 agenda items or 3 outcomes they want to, you know, get to. That's success. If we get there, that's what that will be. And I can actually tell a story about this. So I was in a facilitation with an executive leadership team. And one of their goals was to make decisions based on data. And the CFO brought the data in the room and was going over it really thoroughly. And you could just see everybody's eyes glance over, just glaze over, and they were— we were losing attention. We were talking about Is it garbage in, garbage out? Where's the data coming from? Do we even trust it? All of these different elements to the— that had nothing to do with what we wanted to talk about. And I remember just asking the CFO, how does this relate to the context of what we're trying to accomplish? And he said, well, we're trying to make evidence-based decisions. And okay, what happens if you don't trust the evidence? Then he said, well, why wouldn't we trust the evidence? And now we're pointing out what's in the room is so that we don't trust it. It's that we're trying to get into the details of the data more so than make a decision. So when is data useful to making a decision? When it— when isn't it? And then we just shifted into a completely different conversation.

Mm-hmm.

What we realized was that it wasn't that people weren't into using concrete hard data to make decisions. It's that they weren't sure when it was most relevant to do so and when it wasn't.

Mm-hmm.

And when maybe it was to begin with, maybe it was to end. But so there's a relevance, but when? And which data? So suddenly we were talking about, um, that larger conversation that what does an evidence-based decision even mean, instead of everybody assuming that it meant a data— a decision made from data.

So it's basically zooming out to find The need behind the need, as you mentioned before. And I, I can imagine that it resonates so much with many who listen because evidence-based, whose evidence is it? So what data are we using? What data are we leaving out? And if there's no transparency about that, combined with a lack of trust in the first place, then evidence-based decision-making will not lead to more trust and to better decisions.

Yeah. And are we only working from financials? Are we working from engineering, design, product, marketing? Where's the data coming from? Is it customer-centric? Is it only about bottom line? Right. And then so suddenly people are saying, What is data, right? That was the bigger agenda item.

Which then goes in the direction, what are actually our priorities? Right.

So what are we trying to do?

Right. So whom do we listen to and what do we try to do? And only, it's basically, if we don't understand the purpose, we cannot Know what data to use and where to look for it.

Um, and we didn't actually— everybody came prepared with a lot of data, and we didn't actually end up using it, but we defined the guidelines of when it would be useful to use it. And if we'd stuck to the database data evidence-based decision-making, we would have just kept having presentations of data and analyzing it and seeing how it applied.

And the danger of that is that whenever there's a new data point coming in, it makes the entire conversation obsolete because then, oh, now have we decided the right thing? Do we have to come back? Do we have to discuss again? Whereas if you agree on the system upon which data will be brought in or looked at or discussed, Then the group can operate independently afterwards because they know how to have this discussion and what are the guardrails.

Yeah, we actually ended up working on at what phase of the project would data be most helpful, and that was kind of the agenda item that was missing. Yeah.

And what it just shows to me or reminds me of is when does it actually— when is it helpful to have a facilitator in these conversations and when not? If we're just going through a bunch of data to compare, this can be done asynchronously. We don't need to be in the same room for that. But to have the real discussion of Why are we using that? Why is it important? And how do we want to use it? For that, we need a facilitated discussion.

Oh, this is a great question I'd love to ask you, right? When is a facilitator necessary in the room? When aren't they?

It's great. And I think if, um, If the questions can be asked or can be answered by doing some research, putting it into ChatGPT, going through our documents, then we don't need the workshop, we don't need the conversation, we can do it asynchronously. If there are questions that can only be answered by the people in the room Because it's about their perspective, their ideas, ideology, um, then we do need a facilitator. Because I think the default is always to go back into the rabbit hole because it's so nice and cozy down there.

Mm-hmm. And there's a risk again around, well, if I'm invited into the room, to do something that could be done asynchronously, there's still a contract, there's still a relationship, there's still money, right? And so you have to think through, if I say no to this, does that mean I'm saying no to future things? Whereas I think sometimes if you say no, you're able to actually define what you'll say yes to. And say, you're even— that's the thing about the contracting begins the moment you speak to them. And to your point, if it's something that could—

you—

that's a question you could ask. Hey, is this something you can do asynchronously? If so, I don't think you need me for it, but here's where you may need me.

Yeah.

And you make your value even higher.

Yeah, that's very true. And then also to be explicit about it, if, if you have commitment problems that you cannot do this asynchronously because you need the blocker in your calendar to actually sit down and do it, How can we do this together? Can we have a coworking session, a block that we do this at the same time? We don't need to talk about it, but everyone does the research at the same time and it's blocked in the calendar. Because I think very often we are, we're using block time or facilitated sessions as a way to to actually commit to do the work and to have the conversations, because otherwise we won't. Yeah.

And if facilitation means to make easy, we should be able to say, block time to discuss this. I don't need to be there. You just made it easy for them. Yeah.

Yeah. And if this is an issue, then that's the issue is actually the topic that needs to be the facilitated discussion.

And there's the 4th item, right? Exactly.

Yeah. And now we're full circle back to where we started.

Yeah.

Huh. I haven't seen that before. Thank you.

Yeah, thank you for working through that with me. Several notes I took here.

We covered so many things, and still it felt like a smooth ride. Is there anything that you would have wished to talk about that we haven't touched upon?

I've been recently thinking about, like, we talked about silence And that's because of coaching. It's something I'm attentive to. But recently I've been really attentive to space in the sense— so in person, I would say that means, right, are we in a small space, large space, just the actual logistics of space? Is it a round table? Is it a square table? Who's sitting at the head of the table? Who's sitting on the sides? Is there enough room to walk around, to move around? I don't know, there's been something around space and then how it translates remotely.

Mm-hmm.

What it means. I haven't— it's just this thing that I've been spinning around in my mind that I'm crunching on a little bit, but I'm not sure what it means, but I'm exploring it.

It's intriguing, um, because on the one hand it's something that we don't control. So we control our space where we're in.

Hmm.

We control maybe the setup of the video and what kind of video platform we're using, um, which contributes to the space. I think we can create spaciousness through silence. So I think it translates. It feels suddenly spacious. And at the same time, I observe in myself. So now I'm working from Australia. I was delivering a session and suddenly my external monitor, my second monitor didn't work. So I only worked with my laptop and the room I was sitting in was rather small.

Right.

And suddenly I felt so— I felt as if I didn't have enough space to think and to operate, although I didn't have to move. I didn't need the space, but it still felt— I felt restricted.

That's exactly what I've been thinking through, your space, how space changes.

Yeah. And I realized that I really struggle if I'm Because back in my office in Amsterdam, I have my desktop, I have my iMac, and I have everything that I need that feels familiar. And suddenly, if this is taken away, it impacts my thinking. And I've experienced that also at the beginning when I just started my freelance business. I would, when I traveled, I would go to And the client wouldn't cover the hotel, I would go into a cheap hotel and have a small room. And it would impact my thinking. When I wake up in a small room, I cannot, it's as if I cannot unfold.

Beautiful.

And that's something that I really pay attention to now. I need space, literal space to think.

Yeah, all those, like, even what we were talking about, the contracting begins the moment you start speaking to them. It's the same thing as— I remember a facilitation where they couldn't find a room in the same hotel. And so then I had to stay at a hotel that was a 20-minute walk away. And it was the best thing ever. Because the walk over was so spacious for me mentally, physically, emotionally. That's exactly what I'm playing with, is what is— how does physical space lead to mental or emotional space, collective space?

100%. And, um, again, I'm now on the other side of the world, so I work— I have calls in the morning and the later evening, and during the day I spend so much time just walking. Walking, thinking, listening to podcasts and letting— and things come up if we give it the space.

Oh yeah. Thanks for exploring that with me. That's— these are the conversations I've been having recently, trying to understand why I'm even mulling on the subject.

Yeah, and how to create more spaciousness for yourself. Beautiful.

Thank you, Myriam. It was so lovely.

It was. Thank you, actually. Lots of things to continue to think about.

Appreciate it.