Vodcast 330 : Difficult Conversations: From Avoidance to Alignment with Myriam Hadnes

Hello, thank you for listening. Today I'm recording another solo episode on a topic that is very close to my heart. After having spoken about psychological safety and the inner work, today I want to spend some time speaking about challenging conversations. And I think it's It's maybe part of the inner work, I think, in the broader context, because it's something that as facilitators and leaders, maybe it's anyone who wants a better, more comfortable, easier life, um, has to master. So how are we facing, how can we stop avoiding having these challenging conversations? Because I came to believe That between us and any better aspired outcome that we are longing for, there's always a challenging conversation missing. It's like the bridge that helps us overcome obstacles and challenges. And I realize how many opportunities we have to have these conversations and how often we avoid them. And actually, my friend and colleague Gustavo Razzetti, he's writing an entire book about this conversational debt, as he calls it, the conversations we are not having. And today I want to speak about how to become better at it. Because as a recovering people pleaser, I know how difficult it is to actually open up and take the first step and say whatever there is to say to the other person, to share what's going on with me, um, and to listen to the other person with curiosity so that we can find a solution to whatever challenge there is. And I'll be very transparent and very honest with you that, um, and maybe you listened to the podcast, um, a few weeks ago with Jason about the inner child. When I feel frustrated, I very quickly go into the space of, I don't need you anyway, and have the impression that I can push everyone away. Um, don't want to see them, don't want to interact with them, um, just to avoid this conversation, just being in dialogue and exposing maybe my own fears and emotions. And I came to learn that this frustration, the moment where I think, I don't need you anyway, I want to break up, I don't want to work with you anymore, I don't want to be with you anymore, or I don't want to be your friend anymore. These are usually for me personally, the signs that A conversation is missing. And for you, you might have different signals that show you that you have, that you need to have a challenging conversation. Usually it's, um, there are always emotions involved. Um, and I wrote in the book, I think the book is called Challenging Conversations. I will put the links in the show notes. They say that a challenging conversation without emotions is like an opera without music. So emotions are an integral part of it because they signal us that we care. It's basically our body screaming at us that there is something that needs our attention. And these emotions are usually frustration or anger, can be sadness, can be also A freeze, total overwhelm, which is also a stress response, because we are scared something might happen. We might fear rejection, judgment, all of these things. And usually we need challenging conversation, or conversation is challenging or appears challenging if we at least assume opposing opinions. So, or opposing needs. There's something that we hold on to, an assumption and desire and need, and the other person is in our way to get that. This is why feedback conversations very often are challenging. We want someone to change, we want someone to adjust their behavior. Money conversations are challenging. Negotiating a price or asking for quicker payment or to be paid at all. In the context of a workshop, a challenging conversation could be with a participant who's behaving in a way that is not aligned with our agreements or with our norms. So we might want to take them aside to have a word or two, um, in order to align. So in this episode, I want to normalize the context of challenging conversation and especially the emotions around it. Speaking a little bit about why we are avoiding them and what the cost is of avoiding them. And on the other hand, what's waiting on the other side? What if we stopped avoiding them? Because my promise is that getting better at these conversations is like going to the gym. It's building a muscle. I've been a people pleaser for most of my life, avoiding difficult conversations, pushing people away, and I'm now more and more leaning in and almost on a daily basis. I experience the benefits of having these. Setting boundaries is another difficult conversation. Saying no when our body screams no, but our mind says we need to say yes because maybe we might miss out an opportunity or we might be dismissed or lose a friend or whatsoever. Lose a follower. So the positive outcomes of having challenging conversations and growing this muscle. And I want to speak about how to actually have them, how to prepare for them mentally, emotionally, and how to have them and share some tools, maybe some language, whatever will come up. In this monologue, which is not a conversation. But if this resonates, please feel free to reach out and share with me what came up for you while listening to that. And hopefully by the end of this episode, you will be convinced, or you will have thought of at least one person you can reach out to in order to have that conversation. Why should we have them? Why must we have them? Because there's no alternative. It's like a bridge between our current state and where we might have a challenge, where we are hesitating, where we cannot move forward, where we cannot progress. And this potential better future. And I think if there's anything in our life where we feel stuck, as if we cannot progress, whether in work or in private life, I believe that there's always a challenging conversation missing. Mm-hmm. That once we have it, it opens the doors and frees the energy so that we can progress. The thing is that ignoring the emotions or ignoring it will not make it go away. Usually it either will then slowly kill the relationship if we don't have that conversation, or it will explode. If we suck it up once too many times, then the slightest thing happens and we are like an erupting volcano. So we don't want that. And so in order to have the necessary conversation, in order to solve it, I came to the insight that it starts with— Realizing that we have an unfulfilled need. So for instance, just today I had a scheduled call with my coach and I realized that I was frustrated. So I couldn't progress on my project as I wanted because There were a lot of emotions that I could not process, and I felt frustrated. I felt not heard. I was doubting the entire collaboration, and I could observe my shield of protection going up. Like, I don't need you anyway. Why are we doing this? Mm-hmm. In my mind, I already stopped all of that project because I didn't see it going anywhere. And I also realized that to approach the conversation and the other person, I have to be very clear on what are actually my assumptions and unmet needs. And what can I do so that I'm actually curious about their perspective? Because every conflict, I would say, um, or there are different levels that are related to a conflict. There's a topic that we want to address, me being frustrated because it's not going the way that I would have expected it to go. And where's this frustration coming from? What are the assumptions? that I have around that, of the person not being interested, not listening to me. Then there's the beliefs I have and the anxieties around myself. I'm not good enough. I will never succeed. And all of that is usually unspoken. And leads to the situation where— So before I can engage in that challenging conversation, I first have to prepare myself in a way that I am very clear of what are my assumptions And my beliefs and what are actually facts and what are all the stories and maybe past experiences that are somehow coming into the context and fueling my own story, although the other person might not be aware of it. So what are my assumptions about their behavior on why they're acting the way they're acting? Do I build a story that they don't respect me, that they don't understand me, that they don't want to support me? What is my interpretation of their reactions? Why are they not listening? Why are they behaving in a way and not in another? And what are actually the facts? So what are the behaviors that I could take a picture of or record that any neutral observer would testify that they are real? So if someone doesn't reply to an email, that's a fact. There's no reply. Me interpreting something into the words they're using, that's my interpretation. Someone who is, if I believe they don't respect me or a behavior was disrespectful, then I have to ask myself, what is it that they did that I interpret as disrespectful? So if someone doesn't reply to my email, That's a fact. Why they're not replying is usually our interpretation, and that's where we get mixed up. So when we enter a conversation and confront a person with our interpretations or our judgments or evaluation of their behavior that are not facts but our interpretations, this is usually where it goes sideways, and then it becomes very difficult. So for me, the very first step for having a challenging conversation that will lead to a positive outcome is admitting to myself that I am the issue and not the other one. Because unless we deal with psychopaths, and I hope that nobody, none of us does, Other people don't find fulfillment for being in our way. It's not that they want to be the disturbers in a meeting. It's not that they want to be the team member who doesn't put in the effort. They don't want to be the difficult ones. It's us who have an expectation or an idea of how reality should be, and somehow it is not met. And it was actually Bo Lotto's book, Deviate, that opened my eyes to the fact how little our realities actually match. Even if we're in the same situations, we're in the same conversation, what we hear, what we perceive, how we interpret it, are inherently different because we focus on what we care for, what's important for us. That's our confirmation bias. Our brain automatically looks for everything that confirms our existing beliefs. And if 2 people meet, that's what 2 different brains do. And the likelihood that we'll be aligned is close to zero. So I'm actually surprised that we don't have more conflicts on a daily level. Because we are basically all living in our different realities. I will put Bo Lotus' book also in the show notes because it's such a must-read. Anyway, what I am saying is the frustration we feel with another person always starts with us. And we will never be able to change anyone. We'll never be able to force anyone to change or to do things how we want them to be done or to see the world through our eyes. It's impossible. And I think to acknowledge that we feel frustrated because our unmet needs and desires is the first step to find compassion to ourselves and then to be open to actually listen to the other person. And I read in a recent article in the Harvard Business Review about something that they call a curiosity check where before going into a potential conflictuous situation, to self-check with— To self-check. How curious are we about the other person? Are we already dismissing them and not even open to their perspective, or do we have genuine interest and can listen and see potential for learning and maybe being ready to wonder or to see how we could be wrong? And that's the very first step because if we are, and that's usually a stress response, if we are in fight, flight, freeze, if we are angry, frustrated, Our brain thinks we're in survival, and then there is no space for curiosity or for listening. And a challenging conversation must be a conversation, otherwise it's just our rant and we won't get anywhere with that. So step number 1 is acknowledging that it starts with us and that we play a crucial role. Without us, it wouldn't be challenging. It is challenging because there's emotion attached and we care somehow. Step 2 is checking whether we are calm enough to be curious. If we are not curious, there isn't even the possibility of a positive outcome of this conversation. And only then we continue the next steps. And the next step is creating a psychologically safe environment. If you're curious about psychological safety, I've recorded a solo episode on that topic. That is very important in this context because again, when we are about to speak our truth and confront someone with our opinion that something is not good enough, that something is not working, we are putting not only ourselves but also the other person into a stressful situation. If we're announcing someone that we have feedback for them, they will be stressed. And there's research that the stress response is natural because we are confronting them with uncertainty. When we announce feedback, it means that something is about to happen. Someone will be judging us and we don't know what's coming. That is uncertainty that we cannot control. And uncertainty for human beings is stressful. So how can we calm down their nervous system is by being calm ourselves and then sharing our genuine intent. So why are we having this conversation in the first place? Why do we care? And the more authentic, open, transparent, air quotes, vulnerable we can be, the easier it will be to receive it. So sharing that we care. for the relationship is usually a good place to start if we do care. If we don't care, maybe we shouldn't have the conversation in the first place. What is the impact on us if we are not speaking about the impact on us? And that's a part of the SBI model, the Situation Behavior Impact model, that is, I think, well known for feedback conversations, and we can use it for— Any kinds of conversations. What are we talking about? What's the situation? Why are we addressing it? What is their behavior that we are noticing that we want to address? And remember, this is behavior, not our interpretation of their behavior. And then what is the impact on us, either our feelings, emotions, or our work, our context? If we're not speaking about how it affects us, then it will be a conversation that will remain on the meta level. For example, if I am receiving the feedback that my behavior has impacted or potentially impacted the group, then I wonder why is nobody from the group Speaking to me, but one representative who's speaking for the group, but not about themselves. So if I want my feedback or my perspective to land, I have to speak about myself. So, for instance, to come back to the story with my coach, I shared that I struggled to receive their feedback because I didn't feel heard and understood. And by, by just sharing that, how I felt personally, Without accusation. She was then open to explore and to ask and apologize, maybe for, um, or clarify that this wasn't the intention. Um, and then I could calm down and then we could find ways to move forward, um, and to heal that relationship. And in order to heal a relationship, and I wonder whether every challenging conversation actually already has a wound, and maybe not, but if usually if there are a lot of emotions, it means that. We have been triggered in one way or another. This means that, um, we feel agitated, and usually it wasn't the intention of the other person. So maybe it's an old wound that was reopened that we haven't healed yet. Um, and then we are reacting not to The other person's action, but something that it reminds us of. And we have to speak to that. No, let me say that again. And we have to acknowledge that, that it's very often not the other person. That's why it's important to recognize What is a fact and what is our interpretation? Because they will be the inner child trying to protect us, building all these stories. And usually that's not true. So the goal of a challenging conversation must always be to align and to find a common way forward. And it doesn't mean that we always have to agree. And it doesn't mean that we have to admit that we were wrong or that there's a winner and a loser. It's actually rather the opposite. It's not a zero-sum game. Admitting that we have different perspectives and acknowledging each other's needs, and then we can move forward. And how can we meet the needs without stepping on toes? And how can we— Help the other person feeling seen, because that's the end of the day what is what it's usually about. And I recorded a beautiful episode about nonviolent communication that I recommend you to listen to, because the language we are using in such a conversation. Is crucial. As I mentioned in previous examples, the you're not listening, or you don't respect me, or you're disrespectful. All of this is so-called violent language that is based on our assumptions and evaluation of another person. And usually the other person won't take it. Well, because it's an accusation that is unfounded. There's no way we can prove that this is right. So it's just the opinion of another person. And then we become defensive or angry, of course, because we don't see it. And if we're not asked to, for our perspective, Then it's one perspective against the other, and there's a force in that. So if we can avoid violent language and stick to the fact, to our interpretations and to our feelings, if we can show care and be transparent about our intent, then that likelihood of these conversations to lead to a better outcome. Much higher. And if we can actually focus on our needs. And a curiosity that I have and that I couldn't answer by now is, why are we actually so afraid of these difficult conversations? What is at stake? And I think there is, we do fear the judgment and loss of face and status as soon as we admit that we are human. And at the same time, I think it's the most disarming if we Have the courage to show our vulnerability towards another person. And that vulnerability doesn't mean that we are crying tears or that we are sharing all of our emotional baggage with someone. The vulnerability that I mean and refer to here is the courage to saying, I care for this relationship. I am Afraid that I will lose my job, or I do care about my career and I would like to get the promotion. So there was an example of a colleague bypassing their manager and the manager getting angry. Because why didn't they speak to me directly? Why are they bypassing me? The interpretation is they don't trust me, or they don't respect me, or they want my job. They want to get all the praise from the manager directly. So how can we confront such a situation? Um, in a way that might lead to a better outcome. First of all is, um, are we curious enough about this other person? If they would want our job, how would we react? Um, and what are we afraid of? And can we create a space for them that is safe enough for them to potentially admit it? Because maybe they didn't do it on purpose. Maybe they were in a rush, they were impatient, and they thought, you are— the person is overworked anyway, so why bother them? I go directly to their manager. Best intentions. And then this conversation can be very quickly resolved. If there is indeed a struggle around Career intentions and speaking behind one's back. The question is, does the— how can they find a shared way forward? So yes, you want a career, maybe potentially you want my job. Does it mean that we have to fight against each other, or how can we support each other so that we both get a career? So how can we turn a zero-sum game into a mutually beneficial game? And the moment someone can actually admit that, then suddenly you have opportunities to speak about that. Otherwise, unless it's outspoken, it will cost energy that will drain us every day. We will avoid seeing each other, we'll avoid eye contact. Every action we observe will be suspicious. And the very same thing is true in friendships. How many friends do we have where we avoid certain topics, maybe because we fear their reaction, their judgment? We don't know how to approach it. We have different opinion. How many air quotes friends do we have that we avoid full stop? So we're trying not to meet them because there's an unresolved issue. And what would happen if we actually address it? And I think I mentioned it already in the podcast that I did have a friend and we are still good friends. And I told them once that I was pretending that I was busy. Mm-hmm. But I wasn't. I was annoyed because every time I said something, I had the impression that they would correct me and teach me and educate me. So I didn't feel excited about speaking with them anymore. And I shared that and it felt dangerous and they weren't aware. So they apologized and asked me how they could, what it would what it was that triggered me and how we could avoid that in the future. And I think these are the conversations that will, that do bring us on the next level. How can we have these difficult conversations while they are just emotionally difficult, And not yet charged with the real conflict. If we haven't been invited to a meeting, how can we ask the manager, hey, I realized that I wasn't on the list of invites. Is there a specific reason or did you maybe forget? If there's a reason, I would love to know because here are the reasons that I would like to be in that meeting. And suddenly we can talk about it. And I heard of managers who forgot to invite team members by accident, and they tried to overplay it, ignore it, and they didn't speak about it. And this volcano did burst at some point because one more thing happened, and then suddenly the case was— very clear for the team member, you want me out of the team because first you didn't invite me to the meeting and then these other 3 things happened. Where for the manager, it was just a sequence of very unintended circumstances or unrelated incidents. So, Where do we land on that? That difficult conversations don't have to be difficult. Um, and we can make them easier by First, acknowledging our emotions around that and all the load, acknowledging that the difficulty starts with us and our unmet needs, and knowing that we cannot change anyone. So how can we be curious and how can we trust that we'll find common ground to move forward? And then creating the space where we both feel safe enough to actually have that conversation. And that means sharing our intent, sharing our care, of course, choosing the right moment, but sometimes there doesn't seem ever to be the right moment. And letting down our mask just a little bit and acknowledging that both have contributed to the situation. I think that's another one. How could I forget that? I realized that the moment the entire nervous system kind of relaxes when having a fight is when both persons admit that they have had a share in the situation, in the conflict. When the first person says, I could have done it differently, I'm sorry. And then usually the other person says, Thank you for saying that. I could have also. And then suddenly both feel heard, feel seen. The nervous system relaxes. They're out of the fight, flight, freeze. They can recreate curiosity for each other. They can see everything that is fueling negative emotions into the conversation and then find a way forward and agree on the next steps. So yeah, these are my 2 cents on the topic of challenging conversations. Um, I really hope that you can lean in and have more of them because it is plenty rewarding. Um, and hopefully I gave you some examples. On how to have them, how to master them. And if you fail the first time, don't give up. Share that you feel nervous around it and give the other person an opportunity to see you as a human being trying for the best. If you wouldn't care, you wouldn't have that conversation. And I think the same can be around, and this will be my final point, promise, around boundaries. Very often we fear to set boundaries because it could be harsh or it's very one-sided. It's sometimes not even a real conversation. It's like, okay, here's my no, I don't want that. And I have been very surprised how positively my no has been accepted very often if I explain where I'm coming from and that it's not against the other person, but my priorities. So transparency is our friend. For instance, a boundary that I've set is On the personal level, around my time, someone wanted to meet me and I said, I have to— I promised myself to prioritize my book writing and my relationship and my closest friends for now. And therefore I cannot make time, although I would, I would be curious. But saying yes to you now means that I'm saying no to my partner, my family, my closest relationship, or to myself with my priorities. And then the person understands and was actually grateful for me modeling how to set boundaries around time. Another boundary would be how much I would, how much of my time I'm giving to a client. If they want more, saying that we have agreed on these terms and that's what it's included. So I appreciate that they would like to have more calls, um, and more time with me, and I trust that they understand that I would have to bill separately for that. Everyone understands that. What they don't understand and what fuels This, or could potentially fuel this conversation, is me thinking they don't respect my time. They don't respect my no. They want to, um, I'm already giving so much. I've already given them a discount. I'm already treating them differently than other clients. And now on top of that, they also want that. All of that is our story. And in, I would bet in 99% of the cases, the client doesn't know about this special treatment, the extra discount, their special status. This is our story. And if we communicate very clearly that these are our rules, this is how we play it, then everyone is very okay with accepting that. And if they're not, it's not our problem. Then it's maybe their issues on being rejected or their story they're building around us. And that's something in general to feel more comfortable with, to let others judge us. It's their judgment. It has nothing to do with our identity. And I think it's Mel Robbins who just published a book on the title, Let Them. Let them do that. And us not being, and let me do it. Let me do it my way and let them judge me. I think that's in general a very wise mantra. And that's it. Thank you for listening. Thank you.