Writing a Book in Public: Accountability Calls with Gustavo & Myriam - Episode 2

Gustavo, we're live. Yes, we're live. We just had our little ranting check-in. Uh, now back to business.

Back to business.

Accountability call number 2. Yeah, what are you—

made it.

Yes. Um, what are your intentions from this call?

I don't know, I want to see how you're doing. I want to reflect on my journey as well and also like think about what, what would a next experiment look like. So the other day I decided to share one of my chapters, very draft shape, with the world and see what happened. So now I'd say, well, if I did that, then now what comes next, you know?

Yeah, and I would love to hear more about that because if this was a very rough first draft, I definitely am an imposter.

Okay.

Because I read it and I think it's, uh, it's great. Um, there's lots of, lots of juice in it already, and there were some sentences I was like, oh, that's a Twitter, Twitter sentence right there, quotable. Yeah.

One chapter is easy, and I only have 4 written and the introduction.

And I have the impression that for most books, there's this one chapter that is really pivotal. So one chapter that has the core idea and everything is leading towards, and then it's about implementation and seeing the different facets of this core idea. So, yeah.

Are you asking me if this is— I don't know. It resonated more than I expected. But to be honest, let me— you asked me what happened and what triggered this. Like, 2 things. On one hand, I was, okay, I need to— what's my article of the week? And I was working with clients and blah, blah, blah. And then it felt, well, maybe I published something that I already written. But then the task ended up being more complicated because I have to rewrite it. So it wasn't writing. If I've written a new article from scratch, it would have been an easier task.

Oh, really? Why that? Why that?

For 2 reasons. First, like, whatever I shared, even if it was a draft, I want to make sure that it was— it made sense. I want to make sure not that it was good, But you— but people could get what it's all about, even though the chapter doesn't necessarily— people got hooked with the idea of conversational debt, but they don't know what's the solution, right? So, and that's the surprise. And I haven't teased that.

Which is a great marketing trick.

I didn't do it with that purpose, but it helps. Hey, welcome. I'll take it. But I had the, what I call part 2 of section— part 1 of section 1. Ready, and this is chapter three. So there are four chapters, and then I've been dancing around back and forth, exploring what the second part is going to look like because models. I was trying to commit the piece blah blah blah, and sometimes you just need to write. So the moment I shared this, it was like a liberating experience, and then I went to bed because I I. publish it in advance, right? And then the other— then that night I woke up at some point and I started writing stuff, then go— went to it, and then now I have the part 2 like perfect. Not struck the, the how it's gonna work, the— I need to write it, of course.

Yeah.

But it's like, uh, I was working on an outline, right? The chapter. And that was— and basically I said, no, no, what are the key themes? Came, no, like a And now I came up with 3 big themes that make sense, and all the other pieces are gonna fall. So it was, oh, great. So deliberation, when you get to a point, sometimes we're afraid of doing something, or we are, is it gonna be good, whatever, like overthink, whatever the process is. And when we remove that, then that stops being a problem. So when you remove one problem, then the other problems stop being a problem too. So does it make sense?

I think so. And I, I wonder, because I'm in a similar stage now. So I think I have concluded part 1 of my book, which is the entire introduction. What is the problem of professionalism? And, and I'm now exactly at this point. And I'm like, now what? There are a million directions in which I could go. So obviously it's the liberation of the pioneer, of the unprofessional pioneer. But then even there, there are so many different directions I could go. So now I wonder, hmm, maybe I need to make more the core idea more public. And then I wonder what it is that helped you to then find clarity. Was it just the relief that, okay, this is now Kind of set in stone, and now you can go on. What was it?

It's set in bytes more than so. It can't change because it's not there.

Set in sand. Set in mud.

What I'm saying is it's not that I have the manuscript of part 1. No, it's like I have something there that I'm going to revisit. But I think unintentionally, when you let go of something— so it's not that it was stuck in part 1, So I didn't move into the other one. I was trying to solve something. And there are parts— but now that you launch it, it feels like you gain some, I don't know, confidence, but also like, it's like you're— if you're writing a 3-series whatever, and you launched one, you need to make sure the other one is ready because people are saying, hey, what comes next? So it kind of— but I think that my mind liberated. Like, without me looking for that, and that helped me put all the other stuff in pieces.

Nice.

The best writing happens when you're not in front of a computer.

And this is— it's interesting that you're saying that because this time I prepared for our call. So I wrote down, okay, so what did I learn? What has happened? And one of my learnings was that I am most productive when I'm With my iPad in a cafe or at the beach, somewhere where there is just enough distraction and movement and where I don't have my laptop. And I wonder whether it is because I'm more restricted. So on the iPad, I cannot write as quickly.

Mm-hmm.

And I don't switch to other tabs so quickly because with the iPad to open another thing, it's always kind of complicated. And I have the impression that when I work on my laptop, then it's, oh, let me look this up. Or maybe there's an article about that. Oh, what have other people said about this? So I'm constantly going outside and want to double-check. And with the iPad, I'm just like, oh, let me draft that. It almost feels like journaling.

Definitely. Yeah.

So that was my big learning.

Maybe going back to the— maybe it's less professional, you know what I mean? professional stereotype, you need to be in a computer, hard work, writing hours nonstop. No, that counts. And that puts a lot of pressure, but then you do it your way.

And yeah, and I think the, the little distractions really helped me to be in a kind of focus zone, because if I'm just in front of my computer in my room in isolation, it's as if there's too much pressure. Too much focus on me. Yeah.

And, and I think that's a great thing that we see. For me, for, for every person, this works differently. I always consider that some people are watching this, maybe they are curious because they want to see what you're working on, what I'm writing about, etc. But probably many people are saying, hey, I want to write my book too, right? So hopefully they get inspired. And rather than try to find what's the formula, maybe you need to follow that same path. Well, for you, it's the iPad in a café. Well, for other people, it could be something different.

Yeah, and it's funny how this indeed relates to the idea of the unprofessionalism as I'm looking at it, where we have the desire to be professional, meaning to do it as we are supposed to do it. And how do we know that we're— how we are supposed to? It's kind of, it has been told, and that's the image that we see in the movies, we read in the books, we hear from others. Oh, in order to write, to be a professional writer, this is how you do. Whereas in reality, it's our intention that makes us a professional writer. And then we need to find out what—

Mm-hmm.

works for us. And I think the same is true for leadership or any of the modern professions.

Definitely. And that's why I was thinking that at some point I used to include the word writer and many years ago I replaced it by author first because it's more comprehensive. But writer comes with this, what's the expectation of being a professional writer be? An author, I mean, if you create a piece of crap, you're authoring something, right? If you plant and a tree grows, you are the author of that plant growing. So I think that author liberates us from its brother, but also you don't just write. A writer is— you can be an author of, I mean, a tool, a workshop, or a conversation.

I have not looked at it like that. Yeah, thank you. And then some are very, uh, carrying the title of published author very proudly.

Yeah.

To make the distinction.

Yeah. Oh, but when you publish your podcast summaries on LinkedIn, you're a published author because you— Yay!

Why am I writing this?

No, but when you publish on Substack, what I'm saying is that we still feel about Going back to your title and your book, that we keep booking, what's the expectation? What's the category versus the multiple expressions?

Yeah. And I would love your perspective on something for the book, if I may, because I realized that in our last call, I just came out of my rabbit hole of, okay, what does profession mean? Where's all of this coming from? And then I got stuck on the generational divide that nowadays there's the digital natives that have more access to information than their parents' generation. So for the first time in history, almost, I think the only other time was when the printing press was invented, the younger generation has access to more knowledge than the older one. And then I thought that the main problem with professionalism and breaking free from professionalism is the old ones, air quotes, who hold on to the power Because they are making the rules. Okay, if you want to work for me, you better dress this way. This is how you write your emails. This is how you do the job. So all this micromanagement. And the youngsters come in and say, yeah, but with all the information that I get from AI and from the internet, I want to do it differently. So there's a clash. And And somehow something didn't sit right to be so stereotypical between generations.

Yeah.

Because there are old ones, and I would almost include myself because I'm not a digital native, who are very tech savvy and who embrace it. And there are young ones, there are Gen X people, who do not feel comfortable with AI and with technology. So long story short, my, the way how I solved it or what I now think is that it's not about the generation, but about our response to VUCA, volatility, uncertainty.

Mm-hmm.

Where Which happened about— so VUCA entered the professional, the business world in the 2000s or 2010s with digitalization and all of that. And I have the impression that there were 2 different responses to that. There were those who went like, oh my God, that's too uncertain, that's scary. We have to hold on to what we have. We have to create processes. We have to— define exactly how work has to be. And there were others who said, oh wow, this is an opportunity. What happens if we invite chaos? Meaning collaboration, maybe distributed power. So my hypothesis or my curiosity is whether we can distinguish between those who hold on to this toxic professionalism Those who could not adjust to VUCA and others who embraced VUCA that were then leaning into this, I call it unprofessional pioneer, and inviting collaboration, innovation, all of that. Check. Does this make sense?

Yes and no. So it makes sense, like maybe using a different angle than the generational one.

Mm-hmm.

Like I remember when people were, I mean, I worked before doing this in marketing and people were millennials this, millennials that, blah, blah, blah. And it wasn't really a generational thing. It was, I say, wait until millennials, especially in the US, get some debt.

Right.

When they buy their first car or house or they get children, and then they start seeing the world completely different. So what I'm seeing, they are still a different generation, they are more digital, but the circumstances affect how they see the world. When you have full freedom, then, huh, but then you grow up a little bit in responsibilities or debt, as an example. No, here debt is super— and then their views of the world change dramatically.

Mm-hmm.

So it's positional. And the same happens at work, which I think kind of links to this book approach in which, yeah, it's— people are freer from the professionalism standard expectations when you are starting. But when you start enjoying the benefits of that power thing, then you might not agree with that regardless of your age.

Mhm.

You see what I'm saying? So you can be 50, 40, whatever, and then you're in a situation that you don't buy into that stuff. You don't have the title and your work is not your identity, and then you're freer from that expectations. But there are younger people that they progress really quickly in their career, and then when start getting their corner office and perks and blah blah blah, then probably they're going to buy into the expectations because they become part of that club. So like the groups always come with negativity, but also have pros or perks for certain people, you know what I mean?

Yes. And I wonder, isn't there a difference regarding our motivators? Are we motivated by anxiety and scarcity, or are we motivated by By curiosity and abundance.

I love a lot that angle for what you're saying, because in the end, regardless of what happens, bukano, older, younger, what I mentioned, position, like in your career or whatever, is that when you feel that there's few of them, so I want to belong because I don't want to miss out, I don't want to be rejected from that club of professionals, But when you work into the— there are many possibilities. So maybe unprofessionally, being unprofessional means accepting that there are many ways of being professional.

Yes.

Versus the other one, you need to fit in with a particular standard.

Absolutely. And that's a direction where I'm leading towards. And in order to have this unprofessional worldview, You have to see the opportunities and the abundance. And you cannot when you're coming from this, from this world of scarcity. And I have the impression that the digitalization and AI era do play a massive role in that. Because it—

Definitely.

In a way, because it disrupts the professionalism that it— you cannot be a micromanager. In a world where your team is distributed and is using AI.

Mm-hmm.

It just doesn't work anymore because micromanagement is based on the premise that you can control what other people are doing and that you have, that you have almost a monopoly on the information and the knowledge. So the moment that this breaks, that this premise breaks, micromanagement doesn't work anymore. And micromanagement for me is almost like the incarnation of the toxic professionalism.

I was thinking of going back to VUCA. The U stands for uncertainty, right? And so if you mix, if you cross that with scarcity-abundance mindset, is that in an uncertain— people who work, operate under the scarcity mindset are going to worry about what they can lose. So it's uncertain, I'm going to keep this, while the other people say, well, maybe the future is better, so I lose something, but I win, you know.

Yes.

And I think that's basically their— the past and future I'm exploring that when it comes to conversational depth in my book, that different thing. But I think the future orientation and past orientation has a lot, a lot to do because the people that are more into protecting an old model, yeah, they are stuck into a future— a past orientation versus other people that are more future orientation. They look, okay, what if the future is better, you know?

Yeah. Exactly. And I think that this works better for my context than the generational divide. It's more the mindset and how we react towards an uncertain world that we cannot control by definition. Thank you. Thank you. It was helpful to work.

It's good to change lenses, right? To see like Yeah. I was thinking different when you talk about micromanagement. I think micromanagement never works, never worked, but the illusion associated to it works. So the person who is micromanaging thinks that they are in control. So I don't know if they're gonna go away, you know what I mean? Like the—

Yeah.

There are many leaders that are using AI to basically solve the questions and, and get the answers they don't know. And so they are protecting themselves to open up to other people and say, hey, I don't know. So they are using it to— I'm gonna find everything and then show that I'm—

Mm-hmm.

So I think the— in terms of scarcity, being an expert or being perceived as an expert connects a lot with being professional. So professionalism is you need to know everything, you need to have all the answers.

Yeah, and that's an old concept because nowadays AI has all the answers. So it cannot be about that because AI is not professional, right?

Yeah. But then it comes to scarcity, feels that there can only be one smart person. So either you're the smartest or you're not versus no, I'm smarter at this, you're smarter at that.

And yeah, and it's a collective. It feels like the old professionalism is about the individual expert. And what I understand by unprofessionalism or the new professionalism is that it's the collective expertise. So it's not only held by one person, but it's a group of people. Yeah, and this only works if they have the conversations that matter.

And the challenge, I don't know if you're going to get that far in the book or not, maybe for book 2, but how you bring those worlds together, right? Because in the end, you're going to have both people that need to coexist.

Yes. And I think that's so I have finished this first part on the art of winging it. So what are the skills that we actually need if it's not expertise, but experimentation? What are the skills that we really need nowadays instead of this outdated professionalism? And then in the next part, now in the final part of the book, I would like to speak about being unprofessional in a professional world.

Being professional in an unprofessional world?

No, the other way. Being unprofessional in the professional world. Because as a matter of fact, when we look around us, all these corporates still operate with these outdated expectations of professionalism. So how can we actually be unprofessional? So how can we be more human? How can we put down our mask? How can we be more collaborative, admitting that we don't know while this other world is still continuing to exist?

Yeah.

But that's maybe— Yes.

Okay. I get— so I tend to get into brainstorming mode, and so I don't want to throw stuff and derail you. You know that most books have— I'm thinking maybe mine should, I don't know— have the how to get started or whatever. So in the end, like, okay, you read all this shit, and now what? Yeah, now what, right? It's like I always say, like, growth mindset. Oh, of course everyone agrees. But then it's more like a, yeah, give me the pill. But imagine both ways. So you can talk to people who embrace your unprofessionalism or want to, so aspirationally, or are already closer to your principles, how to deal in a world that's evolving, that's not there.

Mhm.

But also talk to the people that feel left behind, that they are professionals. Some are never going to, but maybe there are people that are there because no one is helping them rethink, you know. They, they're there because they see, oh, what, how do I jump out of here, right? So they get stuck. and tell them that the work is getting unprofessional. So how do you switch?

Yeah, that's a very good point. And I think it's a slippery slope because I think it has a lot to do with fear. It has a lot to do with the inner work. And I don't want to go into the therapy way. I think there are many books who do write about the inner journey, the inner work, but maybe then I can refer to it. Because I think at the end of the day, and then I want to hear about your book, it's about a crossroad where either you go down the professional way and you have the impression that You're constantly fighting imposter syndrome because you will never know enough, especially not in an AI era. Hence, you have constantly to defend yourself. Hence, you can never be yourself. Hence, it leads directly into isolation and in the worst case scenario into burnout. And the only way out, I think, is doing the self-work, the inner work, to lean into this fear of admitting that we don't know and showing a human side that will then also help us to connect to people because we cannot connect to masks. So I think it's either isolation and loneliness or it's humanness and connectedness. And I think it's very difficult to be— Especially in our polarized world where it goes so fast. I think it will be more and more difficult to be somewhere in between.

I'm thinking more— I'm always thinking like baby steps. So in the work I do with executive leaders, CEOs, whatever, they are— all the information they get from books, videos, their human resources, you need to be more vulnerable. And instead of intellectually they get it, but emotionally they can't, and they tend to shut down. So sometimes, because the expectations are so far away from where they are, that they feel, I'm never going to be able to make the switch. They feel like if you're talking to someone who's 3 decades behind in terms of technology adoption, so they feel instead— but sometimes the language, so removing all those vulnerability, you need to do it, that it's more okay. Let's get started and moving them from one place to another without necessarily— so focus on the how we go from here to here, then from there, and not, hey, you need to run a marathon. So that's what— Yes, good one.

Good one.

For me, has worked a lot because they get into the— everything feels like, oh, I need to do this, I need to— they see the ideal model that many books like say with Radical Candor, Growth Mindset. So they propose a And if you are there, oh well, then people shut down versus how can I—

What's the first thing I can do?

Yeah, because those 2 people are going to be involved. So if you want to be professional and your boss is, you know, like, there needs to be at least some shared progress.

Yeah, I love that. Yes. And I think it all starts with a how are you? Really? And pause. Start to ask and start to listen. I think that's the very first step. Check. I want to hear what you think.

But I like how it's taking shape and stuff. So it's kind of a— the questions once one asks about what you are creating are better than the— you know what I mean? So I think you're challenging your own filter. Are you going through generation? Are you going through book? Are you going through scarcity? What that kind of stuff. It's really great. Not like people usually buy into the first idea come to and then they get into that and they get stuck. So yeah, and it's good for you. I really love it.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I, it was really helpful that last time, 2 weeks ago, you said that, okay, it's part of the process to be messy. And just embracing it because I realized that sometimes I sit there and I have this thought and I'm like, oh, that's fantastic. And then I write it down and then it's gone. And I try to catch it. So I'm constantly in this debate with myself and trying to catch my thoughts. And yeah, double-checking whether it makes sense what I think.

Yeah.

And you, I have the impression I took so much time.

Okay, we're chatting. I don't track time. That's like— now, I always joke about the— we need to focus more when it comes to facilitating conversation more on fair participation than on equal participation. Also, it's kind of— it's not about quantity, it's about make sure that the big ideas are not lost. And sometimes we get stuck into that, but well. Whatever.

And also, yeah, some people just need more words to express what they have to say, and others need fewer words.

Yeah, but also there are moments, there are moments that people need to have more protagonism, sort of. And so it's kind of a— yeah, so definitely. So no, I love it. I think it helps me reflect on the process. I think that we all get lost differently. But to your point, accepting it. So when we fight back and we're looking for a more rigid— so for me, sometimes in an hour I make I don't know how much progress. And then one weekend, I say I'm not writing. And then I say, well, but I don't write with words, I write here, right?

Yes. Yeah. Do you— so you don't have a daily routine for writing, or A weekly routine?

No, I'm no Hemingway. No, I think it— I mean, once I think it works differently. At some point I had— I work better with deadlines than with routines. But also I have other stuff to take care of for client work or journey, whatever I need. So I, I don't want to feel guilty that, oh, I haven't done whatever, right?

Yeah.

Because I know that sometimes, as I mentioned, I can sit like 2 or 3 hours regardless of the hour and make progress. So it's like, uh, there are moments that I'm doing nothing, not even at work. So not the book, not my client. There are days that it— for everyone should feel like this guy's doing that, he's not working, right? And then there are others that I can do what other people like would take maybe a month, I do in 2 hours. Yeah, I designed 2 workshops, I create a tool from scratch, I design it, and I write a chapter of the book, and boom, all in 2 hours. Because that's how I work. But then there's another day that we're churning, and I'm like, I'm gonna have another espresso, I'm gonna go for a walk. And, and yeah, yeah.

And I think this— these are the moments where the real work happens, right? Where you unconsciously crunch all the ideas, and then when you sit down, you can do it in 2 hours. You wouldn't have been able to do it without this day of air quotes, wasting time.

Yeah, wasting your time, right? You're watching TV, you're reading silly things, you're checking the news.

And that's what I love, how our brain works, is that this law of attraction, that the moment we prime our own brain on the topic, because we're writing we are writing a book on a specific topic and then everything we see and everything we hear somehow, at least that's for me in my brain, I see it through the lens of unprofessionalism. And every time that I listen to a podcast to a very different conversation, I'm like, oh, that's interesting. What does it tell me about the model of the world that I'm currently creating? And I can imagine that for you it's similar, even when you watch A Netflix series, suddenly you see, oh, what are the conversations that they didn't have? How did this happen? So I think everything we do suddenly becomes part of this research. It does.

And even if what you're consuming on Netflix— the other day I was watching like 2 episodes of a silly series just to, you know, because my brain said I need to— boom. I'm always making lots of decisions, creating a lot of stuff, so your brain gets exhausted. And I did that and I said, well, maybe tonight is I watch this, spend some time with my wife, go to bed, and that's about it. But then I finish, I turn off the TV, I work at the computer, and then I was like, oh my God, what's going on?

So yeah, it is the relaxation maybe that then helps the ideas to flow.

It is, it is. That's why sometimes, I mean, I think that procrastination is not good when people are saying, but also forcing ourselves to do something is not good either, right? Because it's counterintuitive. Sometimes procrastination is a sign of maybe you don't really want to do something, or maybe you're not ready, or there are things that we need to do. It's not that we're guilty, we're not doing stuff, not this mandate.

Yeah.

Of work, but all in. So what I try to say is, okay, if I see since I started a month or so ago, have I made progress with the book? I mean, and say, well, yeah, I have a lot. So I have a name, a title. I really crafted like as an exercise, if I were to publish it, what would I put on Amazon? What would be the back cover? So I did that not because it is, but because it helps me like start seeing the book as It's getting there. And also the pieces make sense, right? If I publish it and I don't have a book where people think, oh, this is interesting, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Because many people buy books and never open them.

That is also very true. Which color will your book be?

I don't know. I was thinking orange. I don't know. So all the folders where I'm printing the outlines or the draft, whatever, I'm using different orange folders. So maybe that's the—

But then you need a different, um, wall paint.

I don't know.

Because otherwise you won't see your book.

No, I don't know. Yeah, probably. I still have one that was ready in my previous home, but I was thinking that, for example, for me to feel the pressure that I'm making— so next time I'm gonna— for next week I have a couple of workshops and I'm gonna have one of my books, actual books, with a fake cover. With a question mark on it because people are going to start asking and they want me to start feeling that it's there somewhere. It's, it's still a question mark.

Great.

And then at some point, maybe I'm gonna put the name on it, like I'm gonna create my own fake cover. I'm gonna put the name so it— I play around with it as well.

I like that. Um, and I would be very curious, um, if you're open to share What are your hopes or the expectations and hopes are the wrong words, but what would be helpful as, so you have published now one chapter, one draft chapter of your book on Substack and shared it on LinkedIn. And I can imagine you got lots of views. What would you, what would be helpful for you to get or what were you hoping to get? Or maybe you hope that everyone says, oh, that's amazing.

I love people to laugh my way. No, to be honest, I had one more than an expectation. I had something I was hoping it wouldn't happen, and so far it hasn't happened, which is not because of the vulnerability. Everyone say, oh wow, brave. Say, okay, I'm— for me, it feels like natural doing that, so I don't feel that I'm doing something weird, but I'm not jumping from a a tall building, but a skyscraper. The, the thing is, I want to make sure that there's a lot of people that you write something and then people immediately have their, ah, but you need to do this. They start like giving feedback without you asking them, and not feedback in the term of inspire, but basically try to tell you what you should do. But that's not feedback. But that didn't happen. And I got a lot of people that actually not only they wrote on LinkedIn, on Substack, on the post and blah blah, but also a lot wrote directly to me, which was really rewarding. Because it was not just people saying, oh, great, cool, but it was more like a thank you for doing this, how it resonated for them, both the act and the content. And that's interesting, right? Because what I like is not for people to say great for doing this, but how it resonated with their own experience. Maybe they are doing something and they don't have all the courage, or they don't have Maybe it's not professional to publish something that's not really, you know, like a— and, and they felt encouraged, but, oh, maybe I can do that too. So that was really rewarding, was part of the purpose. For me, it felt like, oh, now I crossed a line. So it's like there's no way back, right? So people are gonna say, hey, you cannot say, hey, I can do whatever, right? But, but you feel like, well, now you need to give more. And people asking me That was really a lot of people saying, this resonates with my reality, the conversational depth, 1, 2, whatever. But a lot of people saying, I want to read the next chapter. What's the solution? It was, yeah, sure. So, and that was not really— it felt like, you know, when you're watching and you want to see what happens next. And that was really rewarding.

Yeah.

But also, it's not that we need validation. But we need certain clarity to see that you're kind of in the right track, right? If you're lost and you shout, you want to hear some voices getting back to you.

Yes. And I think it is a certain validation, validation of the concept and not of your ego, right? So you want to see, okay, does it resonate? Am I on the right track? Yeah, I can see that. Um, and yeah, what I found beautiful in the article that you shared was that immediately I could, my brain would screen my past conversations or situations where, um, these different types of depth did apply.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so that was great. So it really, it really resonated. I'm like, oh yeah, this totally makes sense. I can see how this has happened in my own life. Um, and I could observe it in those around me.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and to, yeah, to come back to what you said about, uh, just the impact of the posting, I realized over the past 2 weeks, I, I posted some of the ideas or at least the curiosities around my book. I'm like, okay, this is what I'm thinking of.

Yeah.

Yeah, trusting the gut or trusting the data. This was my last one. It looks so professional that you have all the data, right? And okay, we came to this decision because of all the analysis. It looks super professional, but we have so much data that we cannot just purely rely on that. So it's more of a gut, but is it considered professional? Anyway, long story short, what I appreciated most were the comments below And everyone adding book recommendations, case studies, ideas that really made me think further and deeper about the topic. Yeah, and I was thinking that it might also happen to you in your chapter.

It did. And one person, for example, shared like a tool that you can use to review a manuscript with early readers. I used one in the past and this is a new one. So I said, well, maybe my first reaction was, well, I need to compare them. And I said, no, no, let's go for the new one. I don't know how it works, but so it's more like a tribute to the person that recommended it. And also for me to say I'm going to use something different. So I need to— the experience is going to be different.

Yeah, great. I'm curious. Okay, and now it's official.

I can send you the link. That's one of these tools that people read and you can— they can make comments. Yeah, but also you can track when people skip or skim certain areas because they're not interested. So you can see the interested and stuff. And of course, in my case, I use a different tool, but I provide people with feedback. They kind of creating some kind of clear rules of engagement. So don't rewrite stuff. So don't Don't be my editor unless you want them, no, right? But some people get into the editing text and you want like, yeah, no, you want to do that.

No, don't do that. You're not the author.

For example, don't think in right or wrong, no. I love these, that when people say I love this, okay, great, so what? Thank you. But it's not— and this is bad, well, so like maybe ask questions. So for me it was more about consistency, clarity, like too many examples, too many of these, like finding that balance. And this tool helps you See if people are maybe like, like certain areas they spend a lot of time and others, boom, they just skim them.

Very interesting. Don't we love technology?

Yeah.

Great. Thank you, Gustavo.

Thank you. You mentioned that you wrote some learnings or insights. You didn't share those, but these structured Oh yeah, let me.

And I think I mentioned all of them somehow that, oh, I deleted so many pages after our call. I just, and it felt, so first I put them on a different, in a different document, like, okay, maybe for later, but it just felt so relieving to delete them. And then yeah, to test ideas on LinkedIn. Just, okay, write a short snippet out of it. Um, that works. Um, one learning was also I cannot stick to daily writing routines. It's not me.

Cannot?

No, I cannot just— yes, as soon as I sit in a cafe and I get my thing out, my iPad out, yes. But, um, the thing, um, and I learned that I have to stay away from trying now to build the perfect bridges between the chapters. I was beating myself up for writing a couple of blog posts, long blog posts, so to speak, and then thinking, oh, how do I make the transition? And then I realized all of that is for later. I'm still in the just download and write, get the, get the words out stage.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's a good thought about the— we think of books like a novel that you end somewhere and then you reconnect with the audience where they left. But business books in particular, people read them, nonfiction books, people read them like in any order, right? So we— Yeah.

Yeah. And I think it's something that I also learned from facilitation and training is it's not enough to just say it once. So we do need to sound like a broken record, but then to get the balance right between, okay, don't, don't treat your, your readers like stupid people, um, that they don't remember that also. Yeah. Yeah.

That's a good one. Yeah, fantastic. So you're having fun?

Yes, yes, and pain, but more fun than pain.

That's good, that's good. No, it's fun, it's fun, especially when we are excited. That's fun. No, when it feels that it's not, maybe because we are writing the wrong book and we need to Oh yes, I had a conversation with Thomas Landhaller who's finishing his second book at the moment.

And we discussed, there was another learning that I had this phase where I would do more research and go into the nitty-gritty of understanding and explaining. And suddenly I procrastinated writing. And then I was reading other people's book and realized that I get most excited when they're sharing their stories. Because it's real. They're writing a book for themselves. And then I realized that the moment I speak about my stories and my experience, when I write the book for myself, then I'm getting really excited and really inspired. So I want to keep that in mind.

That's a good one. Yeah. Brilliant. Okay. So what's the next experiment that we have? Do you have something in mind that you're going to do?

Um, I wonder whether I'm brave enough to, to post a chapter. Um, on the other hand, I don't want to fall into the trap and I'll try to make a chapter perfect, uh, before moving on. Um, my next challenge is, um, the structure of part 2.

Hmm.

So what is the real— okay, now we know everything that's not working, so how do we jump into So now what is the beautiful future and then how do we get there?

Pop update.

Or maybe combine.

How many parts are you going to have in the book? 3. What if you sold part 3 first? A challenge. So think of the outline and then say, well, to get it from here to here, what's the bridge?

That's a very good point. Yeah, and it might also be more fun to write the end first.

But also the last part is always the most exciting because you are near completion, right?

And then I add some empty pages in the middle. Okay, here is for you to take your notes.

It's like having a sandwich, but you don't have any fillings in it. It's just the 2 breads.

The real BS sandwich.

No, really, but today I wrote the, the back cover text and the Amazon stuff, and it really feels like, ah, what if— then you started like prioritizing because you need to be short to the point. What are the real ideas and what are the things that— oh yeah, cut, cut, cut.

Yeah, so what is your next Challenge or experiment?

I don't know. I was thinking, like, any ideas, any suggestions? Like, I feel that publishing another chapter would be the easy thing, but then it would be like, what's the surprising factor, you know? Like, uh—

So is it the model then?

I don't know if it's the model. I don't know if it's the maybe the name with some— I'm hooked. Maybe I change, but I'm hooked with the name. But then I have 2 or 3 subtitles, and maybe having people to vote, or maybe, I don't know, or maybe start inviting people to, hey, who want to be the early readers? Even there's no manuscript, but just to start like building that.

Yeah.

Kind of a thing.

Good.

Are you still playing with the idea of the podcast? Uh-huh.

Are you still playing with the idea of the podcast?

Yeah, yeah. I have to. Yeah. But I'm also in the midst of a— maybe I can combine the podcast with that, with what I'm doing with my associates across the world, like a survey on culture, which is not necessarily directly linked to the book. So it's kind of another extra layer of work.

So maybe finding the combination.

Yeah, maybe the podcast could be, but the point is the surveys are going to be very confidential because people talk about the shit that's happening in their own company. So they're not going to be willing to be recorded, senior executives.

Yeah, it's true.

But maybe, I don't know. Could be pitching and saying, hey, you have something to share that you'd like to be quoted in the book, or you think you can add to the story, like, and then interview people randomly, or with— not randomly, but yeah, with some filters. And then that could be the next move. And so people need to pitch to— I have something that's going to add to your book, and then it becomes more of a—

Yeah, that's what I'm going to— so I will hopefully in the next 2 weeks publish a landing page, which is basically just a typewriter, a thought writer for people to share their stories related to unprofessionalism. And then for me to cover some, to get some, yeah, some case studies and then also maybe find people that I can then interview about it. And this would be my filter.

Perfect.

Let's see how this works. That's an experiment.

That's good.

Yeah.

So something like that, I'm inviting people to kind of add to the content is something that I'm kind of inclined to.

Yeah. And I think there's so many stories out there.

But being mindful that I don't like, because you're gonna fall in love with every story and then it doesn't— how you curate. That's it.

Yeah, boundaries.

Yeah, awesome.

Thank you, Gustavo.

Thank you for making this happen.

That was great. Back in 2 weeks?

Yeah, of course.

See you in 2 weeks.

See you in 2 weeks. Bye-bye.