Writing a Book in Public: Accountability Calls with Gustavo & Myriam - Episode 4

So we were having the most interesting conversation of all and we didn't record it, and now we have to pretend that we are writing a book for people.

Yeah, we had a little bit of a business conversation.

Yeah, and this is our 4th session. I don't know if it really— I'm checking, can we write?

Yeah, she's good. And I realized that my background is always different and your background is always the same.

I'm boring? Is that what you mean?

No, you're more stable. But I will be stable from now on.

I'm back in Amsterdam. So what has been happening on your end for the past 2 weeks on the book front?

Okay, yeah, we were talking about something else, avoiding the book in the room. No, As I mentioned, I've been delivering a lot of client work, but I have the framework and everything that I'm writing on the book there. So I was testing some hypotheses. One thing that's interesting, like for example, I'm gonna work with a university in 2 weeks from now. And basically they asked me, what can you— I'm gonna— they wanted me to come and help them once a month or every quarter or whatever with the leadership development. And the first thing they say, well, bring a— what do you want to do? and I pitch a workshop based on my book that my book hasn't been written.

The future book. I love that.

And so they love it. So I'm going to talk about some of the topics. I'm going to start testing the tools with this team. Like, so it's kind of— so you see what I'm saying? And then I'm going to bring the experience into the book. So it's like, for me, the book is not a thing. It's a part of a system.

And it's so funny that you're saying it because I've, well, I haven't sold a project yet. Hello, audience, on the topic of my book.

Call me.

But not yet.

But I've also realized that I'm, so I'm sharing more and more of ideas, raw ideas and just curiosities with the public on LinkedIn mostly. And with friends. And I realized that I, it's these case studies that I actually am seeking more.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and to just test whether what I'm writing actually makes sense to the world and whether it's true.

Yeah.

Because I realized there are a few, there are a few hypotheses and parts in the book that I wrote where suddenly I was like, Is this actually true?

On what am I basing my big words?

And then it's interesting to get a sense of what the audience is actually reflecting on the different topics.

I saw that your newsletter last night, at least on my time zone it was last night, that you also included that survey. So I think that— is that Trying to seek for stories or case studies, or what's the purpose behind it? By the way, to the listeners, you can answer the survey.

Yes, there's a survey. So I will launch a podcast and we'll seek more case studies. But I realized that chapter number 1, I speak about, okay, what's actually the problem of professionalism? And I realized by posting on LinkedIn that I received so many reflections and perspectives from the audience that I haven't even thought of and that I wouldn't have found on the normal kind of HBR, Harvard Business Review, and Forbes, and all these kind of magazines. And I thought, if I want to think of what the problem is, Maybe I ask the people what their understanding of professionalism actually is. And people have replied already, and it's actually quite interesting because what I observe—

I just go on—

what I observe is that when we ask them, who would you consider as professional, and what comes to your mind when you hear professional, most people think of integrity, quality, knowing what you're doing. But then when they reflect on when have you ever been called not professional enough, or what would you change about professionalism, then all the negative stuff comes up, like not, not being dressed the right way, not using the right language. Being too narrow-minded and all of these things. So it's an interesting discrepancy that I have to tap into.

That's beautiful. First of all, like, I love the approach because your book hasn't been written. You're writing it. So you're not going to find the answers in HBR, which especially all the articles are the same, right? Be mindful, listen, actively listen, all the great psychological safety, all the typical— like, every article ends with the same recipes. Look at them. I started once analyzing all how they keep repeating the same stuff, right? But whatever. I think that's a— one I was thinking out loud here, like, one of the things you mentioned is sometimes when you ask people about a concept, either the positive or the negative side of its expression brings the tension. And in your case, it seems when you say when you were called unprofessional, then that helps you uncover what the standard for professional actually means.

Yeah, exactly.

Because when you talk professional, they speak like a professional. They talk about values, they talk about, they fall into the trap.

Yes.

So people speak about professionalism from a professional standpoint, but then when you challenge that notion, then the real answers come to life.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I'm very curious what will come up through this experiment with the survey. And luckily nowadays, I think in the past I would have been cautious to open Pandora's box because you— there's so much data suddenly and it's all qualitative data. Um, and nowadays with AI, it's very easy to actually analyze large amounts of qualitative data and then really look at those who— the outlayers, those who stand out.

Mm-hmm.

Um, So yeah, and I had a wonderful lunch conversation with a friend who had a beautiful story about a multinational company where he exactly explained what I claim in the book. So this kind of feels reassuring that I'm on the right track.

You're onto something, yeah. The thing is, you're seeking for stories, But as a facilitator and, and podcast host and many stuff that you've done with the Never Done Before community, I think that you really have a lot of content that you can repurpose. And, and not repurpose, maybe that's not the right term, but that you can use as case studies.

Mm.

One thing, I know you are a doctor, so don't push back on this, but there are a lot of studies that some people used to support your theories and book that when you go into the methodology, they actually work with 100 people, but it's quantitatively and they observe it, blah, blah, blah. And then you say, well, but I facilitated workshops with tens of thousands of people. So your research is more representative and deep. So don't undermine that direct experience. We usually think that observation doesn't matter. But having people like, what would you do if I give you a paycheck? No, like if you find money, a wallet, what would you do? And then that becomes an experiment that everyone bright theories about one thing, but you observe people in real life like for days and hours and so on and so forth, right?

Thank you, I needed that. And yeah, it's interesting, that's true. Um, my, my professor in statistics, he always said he doesn't trust any statistics that he hasn't faked himself.

Um, and I did empirical work for my PhD and Yeah.

If the numbers don't add up, that's what researchers do. Then you find an argument why you changed the sample size or the collection. But what I found interesting somehow, and I would be curious about your take on this, how you— coming from academia, when I read something in another article, in a book, I want to cite where this idea comes from, kind of accrediting this other person who had the thought before me and standing on their shoulders, but also providing some credibility that it's not just me who comes up with that. But now that I pay attention, most books that I read, the pop culture books, they just claim all these theories and they rarely cite other writers or mention other books. What is the best practice in the pop science?

That's a good thing. I think that there's so much data available that you can prove any theory right or wrong if you want, right? If you want to show like a— my thing is, what are you trying to do? My, as an outsider, not saying you should follow by any means. This is not an advice, right? It seems that your book is built on an opinion, an educated opinion. So it's a perspective. You're not basically finding the theory of why people are going to do X, Y, and Z. You're getting into a deep observation about The construct of being professional has been created by people. It turned to a label. It's used to either you fit in, or we can also use to weaponize— we can weaponize it and use it, hey, you're not being professional, and we shut down people without considering their thinking just because of how they behave, their language, their emotions, whatever. So I think that's what you've been sharing with me and what you have been sharing online. It's a perspective.

Right?

And the insight, you know, like the creator that sees something that other people, like a painter, that other people don't see, you don't need to justify that because that's powerful.

Mm.

What you can see is use— you, you talk in the past about maybe historians, about how the, the concept of work and identity change or things like that, and what are the obstacles, how people, how research shows that if I'm level and professional, how that it affects my— you can work on that stuff, but but the main point of the book is yours. You don't need to find research to support your perspective because it's unique. You're only going to weaken your perspective. And I shut up.

No, please don't shut up.

I think that's very interesting.

Yeah. For example, I'm writing about the thing I am It's not that I'm writing my book. I keep writing because I have to publish. I don't have— I committed to publish, and I keep my 7-year track record of at least a weekly article. So I don't want to break that. And I'm working on 2 articles, one for this Sunday and the other for the— and the first one is about the AI.

Mm-hmm.

And the article is called The AI Is Dead, Long Live— I'm gonna— it's here— Long Live Open Mindness. And basically it's accepting that some companies were on the DEI because it was convenient and now they have deleted it. Some companies are still doing it but behind the shelves because they don't want the political spotlight and being kind of attacked. And some companies— but for me, it's in the end, we, we still work on labels and human perspective. We are multi-labels. Right? Our religious or gender or race, those are one of the many labels that we have. And our identity, like Walt Whitman says, we contain multitudes. So we are— and DEI is pushing people to focus on one of their many identities versus I'm more than that. So for me, what companies need to create is a culture of open-mindedness, to respect people, to be open to other points of view. That drives inclusion, belonging, but also creativity and blah blah blah. That thought, a lot of people are gonna say, you don't know shit about this, don't talk. But this is my perspective. I'm not saying it's my— it's true. I'm just provoking thinking. And then I'm gonna, I'm gonna use research. There's an article from New York Times that they tracked all the companies and how they switch after Trump, all the language in their websites and stuff, and they remove language in many places to kind of water it down. Or actually, it's really interesting the, the how it works. Yeah, I use research to inform certain aspects, to talk about change, but then when it comes to what I think, it's my thinking. People might like it or not, but I'm not here to convince people. I'm here just to make people think. And I think your book is actually that. It's thought-provoking. The theme is really thought-provoking.

And I think that's our, that's what I love about your work and your articles. And I think that's our duty somehow is to look at what we see and point that out because I think what I observe on social media is there's so much AI-created content. And it all sounds the same and it's all just repeating what we already know.

So these provocative observations, and I think, I mean, we could go into conversation about DEI.

I find this fascinating. And I had a podcast conversation with Kwanita Roberson where we also touched upon that. And she basically said the same. We forgot to look at what it actually means. Why did we need and want DEI in the first place to be inclusive, to listen more. It's not about checking boxes and starting discrimination in the different direction.

Yeah. But also accepting that some people are never going to change their minds. And we need to accept that's part of being inclusive. We need to accept people who are could be racist or narrow-minded. There's a lot about— you travel a lot, and not only because you live in Europe, which is easy to travel through different cultures and languages, but also you've been in Australia and so on and so forth. And also that helps open our minds. But there are some people that never left their country, not even their towns.

Yeah.

So it's natural that their perspective is limited to their daily experiences because they don't know better or different. Let's say no better.

Yeah. And I think that's, that's a beautiful opportunity of social media that we could, in theory, be confronted to different opinions. Um, in practice, very often we only get confronted with opinions that support our own, which is actually a shame. So I, I recently tried to actually listen more to opinions that are different than mine. So what are those who, and I'm not talking about populists, I'm talking about high-quality media. How do they see Trump and the politics and world politics? And just to shed light on different perspectives. Which then— so that's interesting, just to entertain different thoughts and to keep the mind sharp without giving in to the rage culture. Because it's too easy.

And that's why I try to avoid conflict for the sake of conflict. So my work is all about conflict, always. I'm creating conflict, and I love conflict, But conflict that has a purpose. Looking for now, I always say that without friction there's no energy. Without energy you don't have creativity. So you need to have that friction, positive friction. But I didn't like to create controversy, like write about stuff that you know half of people are going to hate, because in the end what would you get? You get likes, whatever, but then you don't get really— I think going back to the books, right, different focus, different topics, in the end we have a responsibility, not that we need to take it, to keep people thinking.

Mm-hmm.

Most business books, they are bestsellers but are not necessarily thought-provoking. And I know a lot of people are going to say, yeah, it's easy to criticize someone, but the, the, some constructs— I'm not saying the authors necessarily went through that route, but for example, I used to think about growth mindset, even psychological safety. They're turned into concepts that people, like, every time there's an issue, Oh, we need to create a growth mindset, or you don't have a growth mindset, or we need to build psychological safety, or we don't have— they become like a very— like they're looking for this magic pill.

They have us.

Yeah. And then it's, oh, I'm not speaking because it's not safe, or unless you don't adopt a growth mindset, you're not going to grow in this company. So it becomes like a— what? You know, they're not sparking people to be wiser, more critical, to create a conversation. They're just into the— what's the flavor of the month, right?

Yes. And it reminds me of something that you said in one of our earlier conversations is, how do we help the people who are not there yet and who might be willing to get there? So you don't have a growth mindset, come back when you have a growth mindset.

And then how do you get a growth mindset?

Because in the book, it sounds as if you're born with a growth mindset or you're not. Either you eat the marshmallows as a kid or you don't.

Yeah, exactly.

But how do you get there?

And as an adult, how do you do the inner work to make the shift? If you realize that you're a micromanager and a toxic leader, How can you change? It's not enough to just—

I'm not going to answer that question because I don't have the answer ready.

Or you have too many answers.

No, I don't. I have questions. It looks like I answered my own question. I'm much older than you, so I can repeat myself. So for me, it keeps coming back to binary thinking, right? And of course, your thesis or hypothesis for your book is binary thinking. Let me— don't cancel the recording because you're talking about professionalism versus unprofessionalism. However, I guess for everything, the model or the solution or the invitation, it's not black or white.

Yeah.

It has to— and these other models, it's you're safe, you're not. You have a growth mindset or you're not. So they are like, you know, like the leadership styles, you know, they all work on that kind of stuff.

Yeah.

You're servant leadership or you're an asshole, basically.

And well, but there's so much—

that's what we're trying to avoid. The problem may be black or white because that's— we need that tension. And actually, as a writer, you need the— what's the enemy that you're fighting against, right? So people rally around, but then the solution cannot fall into that trap. And that's, I think, how we can help people.

Yeah.

Where are your, where are your readers? They could be close to being super strict, rigid professionals, or they can be on the, hey, Myriam, I can teach you a lot about being unprofessional.

Yeah.

And you need to give them solutions wherever they are. Yeah.

And I think that's a tension that I'm sitting with at the moment as well, because yes, as you say, from the concept of my book, it is binary in order to provoke. Because also the term unprofessionalism, and I love it because very often when I talk to people now, they're like, but I want to carry the label of, I want to see myself as professional. I don't want to call myself unprofessional. I'm like, yes, that's exactly it. I'm not. I want to start a conversation. I want to help people think about the concepts and the labels we wear. And in the book now, I realized that I have to double-check all the claims that I make. To make sure that I'm not following— because it's so easy to just follow this extreme route and to have these extreme claims, but to always think, okay, is this true? And what is the alternative? And what is the gray tone in between?

Or that extreme, it's valid as long as it's not the only one. You know what I mean? Don't eliminate some extremes because There needs to be a little bit of tension, and if some thoughts that you have are extreme, don't cut all the— you know what I mean?

Yeah, because if you then will it—

Don't make it dull or perfect.

Yeah, but then you cannot generalize. And that's another tension I'm sitting with, is the very Western Hmm. So if I, I think the concept of professionalism might apply maybe even stronger in certain Asian cultures, not in all. Does it apply in African cultures? I have no idea. Differently, maybe.

So maybe you can invite people from different cultures to— once you have everything almost there cooked, then to what are the variances? What are the— like, what does it manifest? So in Japan, still, it's unprofessional to ask something or contradict your boss, especially if that's senior, in front of your peers.

Yeah.

That still happens, right?

Yeah.

However, one thing that's also kind of a myth that people say, well, but in America it's cool to do that, and it's cool in the expression, but then there's repercussions that can be even worse than those that you get in the Eastern world.

Yeah, true. Because what is with— yeah.

What is visible, what's invisible. Yeah.

So it's professional to be open and courageous and inviting people to challenge your thinking, but then in the inner part of it, they're not really doing that. They're just pretending to look open-minded and, I listen. No, they act the part, but Deep inside, they're stuck to the professional stereotype.

Yeah. And then you don't have your job anymore. So in the meeting, it's celebrated that you're challenging the big boss, and on Monday morning, you're not going back to work.

Yeah. They're celebrating your replacement, right?

They put courage on the meeting. Meeting walls.

Awesome. One thing that happens also is like, your book is about a topic and you're challenging like a principle, and you can stick to simply invite people to the reflection and that's about it, or you can then give them like more to your point, like wherever you are in the spectrum, here's kind of— you can get started, right? In my case, because I'm talking about conversations that either move us forward or get us stuck or into the past, I've been reviewing books about conversations or facilitation and blah, blah. And I don't want to get into the very execution level thing for 2 reasons. Going back to, for example, the DEI thing that I've seen that sometimes we try to turn, especially leaders or senior executives, into experts in something that they're never going to become experts, not even want to. So you as a facilitator know that there are certain techniques to include people, to whatever, blah, blah, blah. But when we try to teach that to a formal leader, they're not willing, but also their mind works in more like big ideas and concepts, and then I think it fails. So I feel that many books that speak about conversations, they are very much into a lot of tactical things like the questions you should ask. They get more into the coaching stuff, and I don't want by any means to get there.

Yeah.

I want to provoke. I want people to experience what it takes to— for example, courage is a definite, a very critical part of the book. And for example, I was talking before about psychological safety has become like an easy way out. This team is not safe, so I don't speak. Well, if you don't have courage not only to talk about difficult issues, but if you have an idea, if you don't have the courage to share your idea, who will care? So, you know, like, and many times people are not even convinced about their own ideas. And that's on them, not on the culture or the others. And so I'm afraid that people are not going to love my idea. Well, are you really? I mean, are you, for example, I always ask people, are you willing to risk your job for an idea?

You said that on my podcast.

Oh, sorry.

No, no, no, no, it's good.

It means it's consistent and it's so true.

Yeah.

So if people don't pass that test, then either your idea is bad or you don't care about yourself. So okay, be part of the crowd, follow others' ideas, and that's okay. Some people are curators, some people are creators, some people are just likers, right? But choose your battle. Don't pretend to be a creator and act like simply a liker.

So true.

And And the other way around. I love your, what you mentioned about the tactics that then instruct leaders and managers to do certain things and ask certain questions, which makes me think then back to this authenticity. So it's nice that this is what a leader should do. They should have some facilitation skills, but if it's not their nature, then they won't be authentic, and then it doesn't come natural to them, and then it won't create the atmosphere that they're seeking. So what are alternatives? If you know that you're not the person, to whom can you delegate? Who can do this better than you? Because I think at the end, also for conversations, authenticity wins. Authenticity and integrity. Stand by your values.

And building on that, so I, for example, the Nonviolent Communication book, right? It's fantastic. I love it. But some of the examples and reflections and the details, they are very— you need to be very obsessive and detailed. You know what I mean? Like, and leaders think in more of black or white terms or more big ideas than those. So I think that to your point, some leaders are never going to be good facilitators and they need to delegate, get out of the way, whatever. But others could become better. But I don't think we need to jump from I'm— I don't know how to do it to then you need to follow all these steps that— so to your point, maybe it's focused more on how to drive authentic conversations. So Mindsets, thought-provoking things, not tactics.

Yeah. And I think coming from a good place.

Mm-hmm.

I think even if we don't communicate it in the nonviolent way, and we might be a little bit harsh, and as a German, very kind of—

sometimes I can be a bulldozer if I'm on a mission and I have an idea.

Those who work with me Even my clients know this about me, and at the same time, they appreciate that I care and my commitment. So I think we, we as humans are generally very forgiving when we see that a person acts or communicates out of passion.

Mhm.

And then we are forgiven that we are not following the rules, that we are not following the steps, that we are not doing all of that. And I think then it's more dangerous if we try to, and then it comes across as fake. Oh, I had this, I posted on LinkedIn actually the other day, I had a conversation with Amanda and she mentioned the impact of us trying to hide parts of our identity. And this will signal to the other that we are not truthful, because as a matter of fact, we are not. So for instance, if I'm gay— I'm gay— I'm hiding this, so I try to come across as very straight, you will have the impression, what is she hiding? And you will take—

But it's hiding— sorry, just to clarify. I love the concept and I agree, but it's hiding because there's a difference between hiding and disclosing. Right?

Yes.

You don't need to disclose or share because it does— maybe the context doesn't help, or maybe it's not related to what's happening. For example, I'm not going to tell my— I love cooking, but I don't necessarily tell my clients, hey, I love cooking, if it doesn't fit the—

But for instance, let's assume you're a carnivore. So the only thing you're cooking is meat and you happen to work for a vegan company. So it's not about It's like it's part of you.

That's what I'm saying. In that context, that particular trait makes a difference.

Exactly.

So it's not that you're maybe actively hiding it, but you wouldn't— yeah, you know that if people would know, they might judge you.

Got it.

And hence, you will be careful.

So if people ask you, so what's your favorite restaurant?

Maybe you won't talk about it, or you won't share about your personal life or what's going on for you. In the same way. So there will always be something that people around you will have the impression, something is slightly off with Gustavo. What is he hiding? And I'm thinking the same is true when we are adopting a language or when we are trying to follow models that don't come naturally. We're also fake. And people will—

Yes. And I think that going back to the— I mean, once again, I love the Nonviolent Communications book, but you can still practice that without necessarily following all the frameworks, you know. So I think that sometimes, for the author, I can't remember the name, so I'm not talking about your book. Let's put aside overall, sometimes we, and starting with myself, we fall into the trap of being rigid. Right? And it seems that either if you want to build a culture of psychological safety or facilitate inclusive conversations or whatever, then you need to do pop-up and you have the process and the list and we know all the nuances and— but maybe it's not like that.

Exactly.

Maybe we need to make sure that— so becoming unprofessional, choose your path, not Miriam's 1, 2, 3, 5, no, 4 or 5 steps. And if you don't, then you don't. You don't have a growth mindset.

Yes. Yeah.

And I think that's, it's about the courage to be human. Because, um, and especially in the, um, in the spoken, in the spoken word. Um, I recently had a, it was very interesting. I had an email exchange with someone, um, and it was about to explode into a conflict. Um, they wanted me to review their website. I said, It's not— I don't have time for that, they said. I am shocked.

I'm like, what the fuck? How come you're shocked that I don't review your website for free?

But instead of replying, what the fuck, I asked ChatGPT to draft an email using nonviolent communication.

Okay.

And to make my point that I am surprised hearing this language because I feel as if they're not They're not respecting my boundaries. And it totally changed the tone of the conversation. At the end, I didn't review their website, and we both agreed that we, we kind of had a slight misunderstanding, but we respect each other.

Mm-hmm.

So in writing, I think it is very important that we are sticking to certain rules because so many things can be misunderstood. And then escalate. But when we are in live conversation, if we are speaking and then we are adopting all these frameworks and we are using all these words and jargon and things that don't come natural, I think it can be actually quite harming.

Yeah, but also I agree, but communications are two-way streets. Right. So it's— I always work on the 50/50. That's— I mean, married— one of the few long-term projects is being married with the same person for over 30 years. My first marriage lasted less than 2 years. My second one—

So on average, it's just perfect.

Yeah, I always go to extreme. Well, so I always work with my wife on a 50/50. When anything's wrong, We all, even if you screw up, like, look at your contribution to the problem, right? So in communication, I always like to tell people when there's a misunderstanding, don't just look at who sent the email or who interpreted it, but both.

Yes.

The other day, let me, short story, but I think it kind of applies. We were talking about my model and I have people that go through different programs, then they get certified and some might become associates or partners and they have a guy If he listens to this, I love you. So I'm going to protect his identity, but he knows I'm talking about him. That we launched a global culture survey and we invited all the partners and associates to run it locally. Same structure, same stuff, very like, but everyone runs it with their own stuff. For whatever reason, he did something and I sent him a note in my, like you, I'm half German, half Italian from my grandparents. So you understand what I'm talking about. And I said, look, Very like, hey, no, like, boom, you're not respecting the branding, the agreement, please fix it. Boom, that's about it. Not the guy sent me like a note like this, that you're treating me like whatever, I don't like to be treated like this. I'm a grown-up, blah, blah, blah. I feel that I'm always in fault. And I'm doing everything wrong. I don't know what, how to please you. So I'm gonna quit, I don't want to become a partner any longer. I'm gonna quit the certification program, blah, blah, I'm gonna stop Wow. So my reaction, because I'm used to it, was, okay, cool. Let's see that maybe I wasn't clear. So I tried to see what might be driving this and say it doesn't make sense based on my experience with the person, this kind of reaction. So I understand that either he misunderstood, he has a lot of pressure. Maybe some people don't like to be like told, hey, you need to whatever. But so I say, you know what, perfect. You're free to do whatever, cancel whatever, that I don't force anyone to be part of my network. However, until this, this is the first time I hear that you're frustrated. You seem to be super engaged. You show up, you do a lot of stuff. So I think it's worth a conversation.

Well, okay.

We had a conversation. I asked him one question, say, how do you feel? What's going on? Like that. Let's put aside them. I don't care if you want to continue. Don't talk about— tell me. And then I started, and then he realized, oh, I've been frustrated because client projects are being delayed or taking longer than expected and blah blah blah. No, but you know, I'm not mad at you. I understand. Sorry, I'm gonna fix it. Tell me. Okay, can I, can I, can I continue the program? Can I still become your partner?

Yeah.

What I'm seeing is we need to embrace conflict through an open mind, and that doesn't require— it's simply like, go on, freaking ask a question.

And have the conversation. Have the one-on-one, have the live conversation. Don't let it be lost in an email. Because, yeah, a difficult conversation or conflict is never about the content. It's always about everything that is below. It's the stress that has nothing to do with it. It's our projection. It's the history we have with each other. All of that. Yeah.

But if I send my message one day before, maybe the reaction wouldn't be the same. You see what I'm saying? Because of what's happening in that person.

Yeah.

So one thing, for example, you are debriefing an activity with a team, whatever. I always say, hey, questions, blah, blah, blah. And I always ask people, like, any complaints? Where do you screw up? And people, they start like, look, come on, guys, like, shoot. And that invitation, at least, even if they don't give you any challenging feedback, whatever, even for them, the mood in the room becomes like, even the leader looks at, oh, if he's okay to being put on the spot, then so then they take the, you know what I mean? So it kind of—

Yeah.

And I do it intentionally, not to manipulate people, which sometimes I do, but it's more like when you tell people, even if we are the experts of whatever shit we're facilitating, we're not. And we might be maybe misreading the room.

Yes.

And I think by just giving them to open their mind that there is the possibility and that we are open to it, I remember I was hosting an all-hands meeting with my associates and was sharing some critical news. And I knew that some might hate me.

And I said, okay, I will give you now the opportunity to go into breakout rooms because I'm sure that many of you just want to vent about me and to get rid of your emotions that you're unhappy.

And then everyone decided that they don't need to go into breakout rooms and that we could have an open conversation about that. And that was beautiful because by giving them the opportunity and permission to be angry at me, they could then focus on the content and the emotions aside.

Acts play a very important role because you could have said something similar with words, But inviting them shows that you're really open to them to vent without you being there.

Yeah.

So then they say, no, no, it's a magic trick.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think at the end it's, um, it's— and it's funny, it all comes back.

So I was claiming that I don't write a book about facilitation, and sometimes I have the impression I actually do.

But it all comes back to, it's not about the methods and the activities, it's all about the inner work, the mindset, being authentic, being ourselves and knowing what we do.

Yeah, I think your book is about facilitation, but not about facilitation techniques. It's more about facilitating a mindset shift that needs to happen. Because in the end, every time I hear you talking about bits and pieces of the book, you're— I cannot stop thinking that you're a good facilitator. You're great. But you're not focusing on the act of facilitating, but actually you're encouraging a bigger conversation. So the skills that you bring to the book are the same, but operating at a different level through a different lens.

Yeah. And I think that's something that both of our books have in common. It's Okay, let's take a step back and look at the bigger picture without getting lost in the techniques, the activities, the methods, where we constantly try to get it right instead of taking a step back, looking at the big picture, and then choosing for the direction to operate and to lead.

But I'm going to include activities. I'm going to include activities in mine.

You will or you will not?

No, I will, I will, I will. First, because people, the people that follow my work, they like the tools, whatever, but they're going to be less executional, you know what I mean? Like a little more like deep thinking. So which is how people prepare to versus the act, you know what I mean? Like the—

Yes. And so it's more the self-reflection. So you facilitate their growth process instead of instructing them what to do.

Growth mindset tools.

3 steps to get a growth mindset.

Yeah, no, but you know what I mean, right? So trying to avoid the pill approach, the silver bullets, whatever that is.

Yeah, yeah, we have too many silver bullets already circulating.

But it's fun. And I don't know, I'm excited. I need to put a deadline because I always work great with deadlines. Like, I publish because I know that every Sunday at 7 AM people are gonna get my— at least Eastern time now— they're gonna get my email. So I was like, whatever happens, I deliver, good or bad, but I deliver. And with the book, I think that I'm struggling a little bit because I don't have that deadline yet.

Mm-hmm. Didn't you tell me that you wanted to be done in summer?

But that's not a deadline. That feels more like a, you know, like a, I would tell the client, like, in 2 weeks, like, when it's going to be published, I need to work backward to build a timeline and whatever to, in terms of when I'm officially launching, when I do this.

So there's a lot of things that need to happen and Um, I could put a, um, I could block 2 days in my calendar to read your manuscript, to proof, uh, to, to give you my opinion.

And then you have a deadline because I blocked my calendar just for you and your book.

Okay, so I'm gonna stop leaving and have to write. Yeah, I don't know.

What would be a good deadline?

What makes a deadline for you?

Whatever deadline, so I need to work around it. The thing is, I'm still on the emerging part of it. There are some parts that feel super— where I see the clarity. It's not that I have them perfect, but I see the clarity. And I still have some holes that normally I would try to put myself in front of it and I'm gonna find it. And now I'm more into the let it emerge. So I go to the real world, do shit, and then when I go back and say, how does this connect? Even if it's completely disconnected, but what are the key takeaways of things that I can, you know, like retrofit? I don't know, maybe I'm procrastinating and building a huge theory about it.

And maybe it's also the time that it's needed, right? Because If you're so deep into it, you can connect everything with everything. But if you're taking a step back, then you see the holes and you see what is missing. Maybe the time is not ripe yet to go into the sprint.

Probably, probably. I don't know. But the thing about the book, I mean, there are 2 ways to write a book. One is write the book you want, And I was writing the book that a publisher would like to publish and make money out of it, right? And that's a struggle that consciously or not we all have, right? We're asking that, so are these kind of people going to read, or is this the book I want to write? And I want the book to do good, but I want to write the book I want to write. You know what I mean?

Yes.

I think that sometimes is when I feel that, oh, this is too formulaic or too gross. I want to— so I stop there and say, no, let's get back to the drawing board and continue to rehash.

Yes, I can—

I don't know if you get the feeling.

Yeah, the moment where I try to do too professional, then I almost get bored and I get stuck. Um, and then, yeah, I need to find my flow back and my intuition back. Yeah. And you just made me realize that actually I do want to block a week in my calendar too for just writing, because since I came back from Australia, I realized that it's more difficult. So even getting up at 5:30 in the morning to get 3 hours of writing, if I host a workshop at I don't have the headspace to really get into the writing mindset. So I think, yeah, I need a sprint week.

Yeah, I mean, whatever. I might need to block one week or something to work on it, not just to write, but to continue to rehash. Not write, but more the concept than the actual book, because writing the final part for me is not the problem.

Yeah.

Like, but they make sure. And last time when I published my previous book and I had the deadline, then I had dinner relatively early for me, like 8-ish, and then I would stay like 3, 4 hours nonstop. My wife, my kids, at that time they were living with me, they knew that writing time. So I would sit with my computer and do nothing for 3, 4 hours at night, late at night.

Yeah, that's— so that's the more Italian than German part of you comes through.

Yeah, because I need to have a nice dinner first. I have to have a nice dinner and only then I write. I wouldn't skip dinner by any means.

Yeah, and I have dinner at 6, go to bed at 9 so that I can write at 5:30 in the morning.

I'm going to bed at 1 so I can wake up at 6 or 7. No. So no. Yeah. I know that because of all the travel and all the stuff, but I mentioned earlier, I had great projects that I didn't want to miss. So I intentionally, like, prioritized and knew that we're gonna get into this call and it would look like, hey, you're not working. And Miriam would make me feel ashamed of my lack of accountability because that's— No, no, kind of. I mean, like, you're showing me— we started the call, you telling me that you wrote for hours and days and woke up at 3 in the morning to write your books or whatever.

So asking, what did you do? Nothing. Yeah.

And what about you? How many pages? Because I have like thousands and blah. And show me your manuscript. But then after I recover from that shaming kind of experience, I think what's needed— and now I'm in a moment that I still have a lot of stuff to do, but it's going to be much more controlled and not so much travel. Because traveling, like, you know, like in the airplane, it's super like different time zones all the time. So I remember I arrived to a client the day before a workshop at past midnight, which was actually 3 AM my time, and then go to a hotel, then blah blah blah. So those things are not good for writing. So I need peace.

I agree. Good.

So in 2 weeks, I'm curious.

In 2 weeks, we're gonna reconnect and it's gonna be me who's gonna make you feel ashamed of all the hard work I've accomplished. No, I'm kidding. Yeah, no, but, but I love it. I love the conversation and thank you for making the time and for those who are Thank you.

And let's take our selfie as every time. With a book?

This is my draft. Oh, um, actually, these are my notes from today's call, but whatever. But still.

Yeah, these are, uh, my manuscript.

Yeah, but I'm gonna start doing with the other book. I did that and people love it. And you probably— it's like I have different instances of the first draft with Post-its, then the other, then when they jump. So showing people all that journey and planning and whatever, people love it because they feel, oh, they're actually doing some work. Writing is not just sitting in front of a computer, right?

Yes.

Yes. Why didn't anyone tell me before? So 1, 2, 3, smile.

Smile.

Good. Awesome.

Awesome. Then, oh, do we have some? Shall we just say today and 2 weeks?

Sure.

Let me see my calendar. This is fun. I love it. And thank you for making the time.

Yeah.

And thank you.

I learn a lot chatting with you. And also, it's much more fun than writing a book.

Talking about it. April 2nd.

Oh, no, I can't on the second. What about the first? Can you do 2C?

Just the first. I can do, yes. Now, so at this time now, not an hour earlier.

It's okay. Yeah, that works for me.

Perfect.

So I will send you an invite.

Awesome.

Yeah, these are— I really appreciate these calls. They're very helpful.

I take a lot of notes, and also it's fun talking to someone smart like you. So many bullshitters in the world. Truly, truly.

Same here.

Very much.

Have a good one.

Okay, you too. Bye-bye.