Chat LIVE with Ralph (DSO) and Dr. Elana Hoffman

All right, there we are. Dr. Alana Hoffman. It is Alana, correct?

Yes, thank you.

Yes, yes, I know we could go several different ways with that. Dr. Alana Hoffman is with us here today live, and let me bring up the old comments here, make sure we're not missing anything. All right, well guys, welcome. I'm sure most of you watching this probably know me and who I am, Ralph Brewer Brewer Brewer with Dad Starting Over and our larger organization. You can see above my bald head there's a little sign behind me, Help for Men. You can learn more at helpformen.com. And I love to do these live streams and chat with intelligent, important people in the— oh, I guess if we could categorize this as who I talk to, people like in the relationship-oriented sphere, and specifically when it pertains to men and how things can help men, hence help4men.com. And, uh, you reached out to me here not too long ago, Alana, and you knew we have a, um, a mutual friend, Dr. Psych Mom, Dr. Samantha Rodman-Whiten, who's in your neck of the woods there, and she's in Maryland. And so you're in the DC area, right?

Yep, yep.

And, uh, you reach out to me because you wrote a book, and we're going to talk about it and what it is that you do. And let me bring up the old banner here. Um, you can learn more about Alana, what she does, and her book at soyourwifeliftyou.com. So some guys should sit up straight when they hear that, be like, that sounds familiar. Unfortunately, unfortunately, a large part of my audience knows that whole world well of wives leaving their hubbies. And, um, you know, a lot of instances when you sit down the husband and go, what happened? They're able to tell you, like, I'll tell you exactly what happened. This Boom, boom, boom, this moment. Um, often these things are, oh, precipitated by a giant holy poop moment, as we call it in life. Uh, sometimes it's the birth of a child that sends things into a tailspin, job loss, illness. Um, then there's the— those are kind of like life things that hit you, and who knows how you're going to respond. Then we have the things that are a little bit more nefarious, such as, uh, bariatric surgery. I'm not if you're familiar with people that do the weight loss surgery. I get a lot of those guys. Wife went to the weight loss surgery, lost 100 pounds, goodbye wife. You know, those not so nice things. So, um, but there's also a contingent of men that when you sit them down, they're like, I, I have no idea, everything was fine. We— fine, fine means boring, you know. We just, we lived for decades in this way, kids were fine, blah blah blah. And then literally I got the, I love you but I'm not in love with you. Often these men discover affairs, not always, and in a way they go and they're left very alone. And they're— those are the type of guys I think that will be very alone and confused. Those are the guys who are going to be attracted to So Your Wife Left You because they're looking for answers. They don't know what the hell happened, where they went wrong. That's the first place a lot of guys go because we're fixers. I can fix this, damn it. It's kind of ego-driven thing. This must be my fault, right? Um, so I guess I'll hand it over to you What was the genesis of this? Why is Dr. Alana Hoffman talking about this? So take it away.

Yes. Well, thank you so much. So nice to connect with you and to be here. The genesis was, you know, I'm a psychologist. I have a private practice in Washington, D.C., all virtual. And I see lots of couples. I see individuals and couples. And I see men who, you know, after separation or divorce, it's a really important time for reflection and introspection. And especially, like you said, you know, some people who don't know why, what happened, and they're really confused. And they come in and they say, I did XYZ, I was really involved with the kids, and I made the money, and I did all the things, and I did everything she asked, and yet I'm still divorced and this still happened. And you know, what went wrong. And so it's a really, uh, you know, kind of— they often miss so much of what's important in a marriage and in a relationship and with intimacy and connection. And they, they're doing what they think is right, but it's not actually what their wives are wanting or asking for, right? And so they're left with like, what, you know, what happened? So, so I wrote So Your Wife Left You, Now What? Um, as a kind kind of like a bite-size, you know, each chapter is kind of like a bite-size of a much larger topic because I think there's only so much that one can digest when they're kind of in this place of going through separation and divorce. And it's like they don't— they can't and they don't want to necessarily go so deep into one specific thing. So it's kind of like, here's a brief overview on attachment theory, which is super important, or here's love languages, or here's How to set up a Tinder profile, which is also what people are wanting to know how to do after divorce. So it's every chapter is like a snippet of something important. Lots about sex. There's a bunch, several important chapters about sex in there. So, you know, so that's why I wrote it as kind of, you know, a kind of easy digestible how-to for men who are like, what happened? Am I allowed to curse on here, by the way?

Absolutely. Curse away, my friend.

Perfect.

Okay. We do that often in our world.

Perfect.

Okay, great. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Good, good, good. Um, yeah, so I was about to say, I mean, these men are like, you know, what the fuck happened? And so, um, yeah, a lot of it is like looking back and then a lot of it is moving forward and practical things like how to parent, how to deal with your ex, you know, all this stuff that are just like, they just don't know because they've been— a lot of men have married for so long. They met their wives when they were really young. They didn't You're not taught how to have relationships, how to have successful, meaningful relationships, right? And so they don't know how. They don't know how to communicate. They don't understand their own love languages. They are self-conscious about asking for things that they need. So, so much of it is like building men's confidence too, and like, this is what I want, and this is what I can ask for. And if I find a loving partner, that's all good. They will give that to me, right? And if I show up for them, of course, in that way. So that was the basis I saw in me.

So is your audience like a lot of my audience, which, you know, if it's a man and he's seeking out information online and he finds you and your book, we're going to assume that that guy is probably more anxious in nature and specifically with the attachment style, because he's seeking to fix, he's seeking to understand, he's reaching out, and he's the type of guy that probably also during marriage says, "Wife, do you want to listen to this podcast with me? Do you want to watch this YouTube video?" I found this Dr. Ilana Hoffman, and they're married usually to the avoidant gal who says, can you, can we just drop it? Leave me alone, please stop it with that. Are these the kind of guys that are coming to you? Is that what you're seeing?

Some are, some are the anxious type, and then some are the avoidant type who, um, you know, don't understand their own feelings, you know, have a hard time communicating about that, have a hard time showing up for their partners' emotions, are overwhelmed by a lot of emotions and kind of shut down and withdraw, and they say they don't need anything, and they, you know, they don't have their own needs, which is not true because by virtue of being a human on this planet, you do. But avoidant people are, I'm fine, it's all good, no worries, I'm independent, you know, I don't ask for help. And people want to be there for their partners, and so when you have someone that doesn't ask for that, doesn't— isn't aware of what they want, doesn't ask for it, you can't give it to them, they don't feel fulfilled, etc. So it's both. So I do see both. I see a lot of anxious anxious. Like, I tried, I want— I wanted to go to couples therapy, I wanted to do all this stuff. My wife was already out, you know, by then it's like, it's already too— it's already over, you know, I mean, by that point, I think it's— and many of these couples that come to me, that should have come along, you know, I mean, it's already— it's kind of already done.

This is why couples therapy doesn't always work, you know, especially if you come in, you know, unfortunately, that's what every anxious person doesn't want to hear, you may have to let them go. Sorry. Oh no, that fills them with all kinds of dread. And then, and then, you know, for those of us who have been through the horrible traumatic experience that it is, and then we come out the other side, we're like, yeah, that probably should have ended quite a while ago. Then we, we all saw this coming. But usually the anxious people are usually the ones that say, I was the one to hang on and hang on. Or the little metaphor I like to use is bury in like a tick. You know, into our, like, a parasitic, um, just leeching from the other person, getting our validation and, and feelings and sense of self-worth from them. That's why we tend to hang on a little, a little too long. And, um, you know, you brought up a good point there, one of the statements you made. Um, there is this, you know, you hate to speak in, like, absolutes and apply, you know, paint everyone with a broad brush, but is it safe to say, Doctor, that if I'm still with my spouse, my wife, and I'm getting language from her to something to the effect of, I have emotionally checked out. I love you, but I'm not really in love with you anymore. I'm sorry, emotionally I am disconnected. They usually don't say in such specific terms, but you put two and two together, you're like, this person has emotionally disconnected from me. Um, as a woman, is it, uh, fair to say that 99% of the time you gotta let them go, buddy? You've lost them. Or is there hope here is what a lot of guys want to ask.

You know, I mean, most people don't want to get divorced, of course, right? So, you know, they're— it's sort of worth a try, you know, but on the other hand, like, yeah, if someone's saying, I'm, you know, I'm really not, I'm not in this, you know, there's too much, too much happened here. I've moved on. I don't really want to go to couples therapy. I'm not planning things with you or for you. I'm kind of worried about my own stuff. Like, I don't, you know, then yeah, you know, it's, it's, it's kind of, um, at that point it's, you know, they're not really interested. Vice versa too, you know.

And what a lot of guys though, they're looking for some kind of magic bullet. No, there must be something that I'm missing that will just turn this around. I can flip a switch and this— she'll suddenly wake up from the whatever stupor that she happens to be in, and she will reconnect with me. And unfortunately, and you don't want to laugh at the guys because you understand it, because they're traumatized and hurting, wanting to hang on to a relationship, they will first reach for the very superficial stuff. Perhaps if I lost a bunch of weight, started looking better, started dressing better, then she'll like me. And they, they do this whole what we call the old pick-me dance in front of the woman, like the little, you know, the South American bird, like, how about now? How about now? And it it just buries them in a deeper and deeper hole of looking more and more pitiful, basically.

Right, exactly. I mean, ultimately it's a turn-off, right? Because it's just a signal of such insecurity, right? I mean, people are drawn to sort of confident people who are like, you know, all right, I don't— I'm gonna be okay if you— if you don't want this, I'm gonna be— I'm gonna be fine. I don't need— I don't need— my self-worth is not wrapped up in— in you or this relationship or this marriage. And if we don't work out, okay, you know, that sort of can flip the thing because that shows the confidence and the security that maybe they didn't have before, right? And that's why I think so much— so many men discover after, after having been left, they are sort of put in a position where they have to develop this confidence and security because their partner left. So they're on their own and they're trying to figure it out. And by doing that, By learning more of what they want and what they like and what they are interested in, they get more secure and more confident and then ultimately can attract a partner who is also like that and is drawn to that confidence, security, you know. So that's basically kind of the message.

I just, I did a post here recently and made a little video that there is this predominant thought in the, um, post-divorce dating culture that a lot of the people, men and women both, that are on the dating market, the vast majority are quote broken.

Uh-huh.

It's like, well, that's not necessarily fair. But then when you sit down and think about it, you're like, there may be some science behind that. Because, uh, secure people tend to pair up with somebody and hang on to them for life or for a really long time. And if— because they meet other secure people, so they're off the market for a long period of time. And then you got a lot of your anxious people tend to latch on to somebody pretty quick. And I know a lot of the anxious guys that I meet The first woman that makes goo goo eyes at him, he's fallen in love and he's ready to move in and adopt her 3 children and the whole 9 yards.

Right.

So those anxious people tend to be off the market and we're left with— is it fair to say, Doctor, what do you think? Are we left with a lot of avoidance? A lot of anxious people that haven't been picked yet, so to speak?

And I do think, I do think that we're left with some avoidance. Some, you know, some avoidance, some anxiety, and some insecure who are looking for other secure— I'm sorry, some secure who are looking for other secure people, you know. But yes, I mean, I do think that anxious men will attach quickly to women post-divorce, but those women also are, you know, are also not securely attached because they go for the people that are really into them right away. Might not be into them for who they are. And because from a secure, confident place, they just know that it's— they're not— these men are not used to being alone. And so, hi, here I am. Okay, so that just perpetuates the cycle of insecure attachment, you know. So like, they might—

something else often hear from men that are— usually the guys don't even wait for the actual divorce to take place before they go dating again, these anxious guys. It will be Like immediately, as soon as the wife says we're done, he's like literally days later on Tinder or whatever it is trying to fill that void and get more attention and sex. Because often there's a lot of sexless marriages, you know, long term, and they're like, finally it's my chance to get some. And so they, they go out there and they meet a gal, and they will be 30, 60 days into it dating just her. And he will tell me, I know, Ralph, you said like cool it with the dating and blah, but I'm here to tell you there's something really good going on here. She seems to be a good all-around awesome human being. I think I just got lucky here. And I say, well, here's the deal, dude. Oh, and there's no red flags. He will say red flags is the term we use for warning signs that things are about to go south. There's no red flags here, Ralph. Well, there is a red flag that you're ignoring, which is you went to this woman and said, I'm not yet divorced. Yeah, my wife as of days ago just told me she wants to leave. Here I am very quickly on the dating market. And you told her all this, right? Yeah. And, and she was cool with that? Yeah, because she's going through the same thing. And it's like, oh Christ, it's not gonna— yeah, because a secure person would say, whoa, time out, buddy. It was nice meeting you, maybe we'll have coffee or whatever, but as far as dating and all that, you ain't ready, pal, you know.

So best of luck to you, right? Maybe I'll see you again on Tinder in a few years.

There you go.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so true. It's so true. Right. The red flag is that it was fine with her that she thought, oh, this person is ready. Right. You can't be. The irony is like you have to date and have sex to learn what you want and to get that confidence back. Right. So like, because I think like the advice to like slow down, like take it easy, you know, is is good advice and I tell the same to my clients but with doing that, you know, you can't really learn about yourself and what you're looking for if you don't have those experiences. So like it's sort of a catch-22, right? Like, you're not in a healthy spot to date and yet you have to date to be healthy in some ways. You know, so that's why I think it's so important to just be honest with like where you are at and what you're looking for in that moment of like this dating You know, separated, not divorced yet. It's like, you're looking to date, to have a good time, to like connect with someone casual, and just like be really upfront. Because there are women that are also looking for casual things. Like, not every woman is looking for a serious relationship. So like, if you find that fit, you're looking for the same things, that's great. But if you were leading someone on, then— and if you think yourself that you are in a place for a new relationship, then like you just have not done the kind of introspection that you need to, to realize like, actually, I'm not ready for this. I'm still in mediation. I'm still fighting with my ex. I still have these, you know, we still, we still argue and, you know, to recognize like, I'm not in a place to, to do that and to be a good partner to someone, you know? And so, but I totally understand the impetus, of course, like, especially with the Sexless Marriage, like, of course you want to get out there. Yeah. And that's what, that's what builds confidence. Like all these men realize like, hey, people actually want me. Like, I'm not just like this gross person that my wife kind of made me feel like whenever I like asked for sex, you know.

I mean, there is this saying of— I don't know if you've heard it before— how to get over a woman is to get under 10 more. It, you know, there's a grain of truth to it, which is you build up the confidence like you mentioned, like, oh wow, I'm a sexual creature that other people find attractive enough to do the deed with. Who knew? And you stand a little taller. But you know, I got to tell you, if you're a guy who's days out of a horrible marriage and you're Mr. Anxious trying to fill a void— no pun intended— and you're out there and you're getting under 10 women, it's probably 10 women that are not the best relationship candidates. Just like you, they don't have it going on up here. And I don't know if you want to bring those type of people into your world, especially if you're a parent and, you know, all that good stuff. So Be careful, guys, is what I'm trying to say. Um, there were a couple of comments that I deleted off of here because, guys, let's— okay, I'm talking to a bunch of guys, and I warned you ahead of time, Alana, about this, that we have, we have a lot of gentlemen that are fresh out of relationships that failed. Not even necessarily fresh, they just haven't got over yet, and they're pissed off at the world. It didn't go quite like they thought. Been there, done that. That was me 12 years ago. And, um, But look, guys, let's try to keep it at least some semblance of classy. Some—

I'm so curious now what comments you deleted.

Yeah, and you know, just this, this is a professional we have here. Let's show her the respect that she deserves, and myself too, because you're, you're coming into my house here and, you know, spouting this stuff. It's like, I don't want to hear that, you know. Beat it. So I'm deleting some comments if they come up and there's really— they don't help in any way, that's for sure. It's like, okay, you know, So-and-so Joe Blow is upset and angry at the world. Cool. And you know, what is— what does that solve? Um, yeah, um, yeah, I don't understand. Oh, so James— like, James's point here, if I'm understanding, it's a little discombobulated here. Um, he brings up a good point. He's talking about, yeah, you try to find someone for casual sex and then next thing you know you get yourself into trouble. He mentions Harvey Weinstein, for example. Maybe you will you'll be seen as a predator. Um, and James, if you don't realize it, you are kind of saying a deep thing there that I hear from a lot of men, which is sexual shame, which is a fear of expressing their sexuality. Because as some of us have been told, as men especially, um, uh, your, your sexuality is animalistic, um, very simplistic, and you need to keep that. You got to keep suppress that, you know. Anytime you're overtly sexual with women, they— so to go to a woman and say, here, here's here's the deal. I'm not interested in long-term relationships. I'm not mentally ready for all that, but I enjoy the company of women. And yes, if casual sexual relationships are up your alley, then I'm probably the guy for you. You know, a lot of men are like, I can't say that to a woman, are you kidding me? Or some semblance of that. The women will go running and they'll call the police and whatever it may be. So that's what James is hinting at.

No, it's, it's an art, that is for sure. I totally, I really do understand that dilemma. I really do understand the difficulty that men have in that situation with trying to pursue a casual relationship and not being seen as a predator. And I think it is just so much about how you communicate, how you— I mean, it also depends how you meet, like how you set up your profile in general, initial messages. I mean, even if you want something casual, overtly sexual comments are just— are, are not going to be welcome from somebody who is like insecure looking for something casual. And like, women like sex too. Like, there are, you know, and, and, and so, you know, especially post-divorce, like, you can definitely find women who also didn't have like a great sex life in their marriage and also who have a high sex drive and who are open-minded and all that stuff. But like, so much of it is like, is the approach. And, you know, I mean, women often really do want like confident direct, like, you know, men, but it is a dance of like not being seen in that way. So I really, I really, I really do understand. I work with a lot of men kind of trying to walk that line, um, you know, because yeah, it's, it's, it's, um, it is a delicate balancing act.

Yeah, remaining classy, remaining respectful and everything else, but also not being ashamed of your sexuality. And this is who I am.

Right. And so many men, right? Yeah. And well, and so, right. And like you said, to your point of like, you're taught that you're— it's animalistic and it's gross and like, get away from me, don't touch me. Like, what you want is disgusting, right? Like, it's in marriages or, you know, and so like, of course you feel like, I can't express what I want, right? But, you know, I mean, also finding a partner ultimately who like understands the importance of it, who's on the same page, is compatible in that way, even if it's not necessarily something serious, you know, who understands that is important because it's just as valid of a love language as, you know, flowers, love notes. I write about this in my book, you know, fancy dinners, presents, etc. Like, it's all valid. Like, all that stuff is totally valid. And so if you're respectful and open-minded about it, like, all good, you know. But Yes, how to do that.

So, you know, there is this, um, there is a tactic, if you will, amongst what we call the nice guys, the really codependent type of dudes who, um, basically purposefully suppress the sexuality. And they will get in the front door, so to speak, with a woman via her— their nice, over-the-top, um, gift-giving, you know, uh, friend, allowing the long text conversations for hours and hours and phone conversations, paying for expensive dates, but they never cross over into the physical romantic side. And therefore the woman gets the impression of, I guess this is just a really friendly guy who has no interest in any kind of romantic anything. Cool. And he has what they call friend-zoned. He's okay, you're in the friend category. And when he later suddenly tries to flip the script and become more sexual romantic, just usually very clumsily, it doesn't come naturally, the woman's like, what the hell is this?

Right.

And there's your typical nice guy going, oh my gosh, women just are all the same. As soon as you try to do anything, all they want are all these gifts and everything else. Um, we have a lot of men who— and I've talked about this quite a bit in my material— because of they've been married for so long, because of their very probably short dating period pre-marriage, they have been told in a lot of ways what you lead with as a man, what is the most attractive part of you is your avail— is your ability to provide. So it may have been a guy who was the, the key or primary earner in the marriage. We hear that a lot. And, um, he's built up a nice healthy 401k and all these other things, and he's got a nice lawn tractor and all these other things that he thinks makes him like a, ah, look at me. And what he, what he's surprised by is that a lot of women in the dating market these days are like, I really don't care about that kind of stuff, right? Um, we're self-sufficient, we're fine, we, we have good careers, we're, we're doctors of whatever, I'm a lawyer, whatever it may be. And the follow-up to that is, what else do you have, Mr. Prospective Date Man? And the answer is, I don't, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know what else there is. I haven't really cultivated any other side of myself. I've been a dad and husband in a sexist marriage guy for a long, long time, these guys will say.

Yeah.

Um, and so they really have to put on a new suit and it's very, very uncomfortable for them.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, so much of what the women that you're describing are looking for, you know, after a divorce themselves is emotional support, like emotional, like caretaking in the sense of— not in the sense of money you're providing, but in terms of emotional support, in terms of acts of service, making their lives easier, planning things, romance. Like, a lot of, you know, men didn't— men are out of sexless marriages and women are out of romanceless marriages, right? Like, their husbands didn't make them feel special or wanted or prioritized, right? And they will say, well, I did all these things, you know, like I said before, like I took the kids here, I did all this stuff, I'm a good dad. Great, totally, I'm sure that's true, right? But it's like, what kind of partner are you? And that's to both people, right? Or they'll say, I provided, I worked and I— but if you're not emotionally available, women don't want, they can do all that stuff themselves, right? Like that's like you just said, that's the thing, they can do all that themselves or they can get a house cleaner, whatever. But they want someone to make their lives easier and they want someone to listen to them when they're stressed or upset or sad about the state of the world or worried about their kid or whatever it is. And that is so important to be able to cultivate emotional awareness and intelligence and learning about what women are really looking for. They don't want that necessarily, especially women who are self-sufficient. Like you said, it's like marriage is no longer, for a lot of people, the economical arrangement that it was. So it's got to be worth the, you know, it's got to be kind of worth it, right?

Yeah, I was, uh, talking to Dr. Orion Taraban about this, about how the, the paradigm of relationships has really shifted here in recent memory. We've gone from a, a template of, or foundation in marriage as being one of need— I need her, she needs me— in order to survive and create this family and do everything we need to do. Um, and now it's been switched to— it's much more based on desire than ever before. I actually like this person, love this person, want this person.

Yeah.

And but it— but that makes it a little bit more difficult for everybody because you have a lot of boxes to check that we didn't necessarily have to check in the past. It used to just be, dude makes a good paycheck, keeps roof over my head, that's it, and done. I'll take care of all these other— yeah, yeah. So growing pains, we're experiencing a lot of growing pains in this, uh, relationship world. And, uh, maybe that leads into What are you hearing as far as from the women you talk to? Why are they leaving their husbands? Like, they're— I don't know, we can say so much now. I don't necessarily know if we have a number on it, like how often this is happening, but I think it's fair to say in the past 50 years it's happening more than in the 50 years prior to that. Probably a lot to do with the whole need-desire thing we talked about. But, uh, what's going on here?

Yeah, well, and 70% of divorces are initiated by women.

That they are.

So yeah, I mean, women are leaving because they're not, they're not being heard, because they're not feeling special, they're not feeling prioritized. They can do it on their own, especially after kids. Women's confidence often goes up with like how they parent, and they are seeing, you know, literally like the fruits of their labor, you know, and they're feeling confident in those skills and they're feeling more confident as a person in general. And they're seeing like that oftentimes their husbands are not making things easier for them. They're making things harder for them. It's another person to take care of. It's another person to manage. They're not sort of anticipating their needs. They're not emotionally available for them. I mean, that is like such a huge piece, the emotional availability. They're not making them feel special and they realize like this might be easier without this person, and I can parent, and I can have a life, and I can do other things, and I don't really need to be— I don't need to be married. Have you read the book This American Ex-Wife? Liz Lenz writes about this. No. It's really interesting. I mean, it's all based on, I mean, men and women's roles and how much harder marriage is for women than it is for for men. And historically, I think that that has been true and continues to be true. In a lot of cases, women are the ones managing the house and also working. I mean, women are working these days. I'm not seeing a lot of women that are not working. And they're managing the in-laws and the kids and the soccer schedule and all of this stuff. And they want help. And they can't do it all on their own with somebody who should be helping them, right? Like, they don't feel like it's an equal partnership, like they have an equal partner who's doing that stuff with them and making life, which is hard enough, easier. And like you said before, you know, there are all these things that are all these points of, you know, that are, you know, that are inflection points in a relationship where ruptures happen. Having a kid, a sick parent, a dying parent, all these, you know, things that happen that women need emotional support around and they feel let down by their partners and that is never repaired and they can't really get over that. And that is also another big factor.

Frank has a good question here. He says, please forgive my ignorance, but what does emotional availability mean exactly? Because mostly I don't think most men know, he says.

Yeah, that's a good question. So emotional availability is like You know, can you hold someone's emotions? If someone is telling you about their bad day, are you immediately going to, well, have you tried this? Have you thought about this? Well, what about this? You know, I know a lot of men are fixers and that's cool in a lot of ways, but so many women just want like, wow, that must be really hard. Wow, tell me more. Like, oh shit. That sucks. What can I do? You know, like being actually emotionally in tune with a partner, like reading their emotions, not wanting to fix anything, validating, empathizing, you know, being physically affectionate, like eye contact. I mean, all, you know, all of that is like emotional availability, feel, you know, providing a comfortable space for somebody to ask for what you want and can talk about the hard stuff. You know, and that's all— that's all— men are not taught that. Boys, boys are not taught that. I mean, I have a little boy. I teach him this. It's, you know, men aren't taught that way.

Have you seen the infamous video, the nail in the head video?

I show that to my clients. Right, exactly. So for those of you— go look it up if you're not familiar. But, you know, she has a nail in her head and she's complaining to her partner about these headaches. And he's like, well, you have a nail in your head. You should probably take out that nail. And she's like, you're not understanding what I'm saying. And she's like, why, you know, why are you just trying to fix it? And he's like, well, because there's a really obvious solution here. And she's like— and then, you know, and then eventually he gets to a point of like, wow, that must, that must be hard. And she, you know, her defense— you can see her body language. She's like, yeah, it is, thank you. You know, she feels much more close to him.

But then the punchline at the end is they go in for the kiss and her nail hits him, right? He's like, ow, he's like, take out the nail. My favorite part was she says, my sweaters keep getting snagged. I don't know what's going on. Yeah, yeah, that was so good. Um, but you know, it's, it's a somewhat nebulous concept of emotional safety, emotional availability, emotional— you know, it's, it's like as if, you know, if I were to ask 10 women that same question, I may get 10 slightly different or even maybe even wildly different things. But it does seem there is a universal theme that we hear amongst a lot of women of men just stop trying to be so fixy and calculating and rational, mister. You know, like, I'm trying to think of— I don't know if you know the character Spock from Star Trek, the Vulcan. He's just very no-emotional, just, why don't we do this, Captain? And yeah, this is not how humans operate, Spock. Same kind of thing. Um, but in our mind, it is such a no-nonsense thing. When we're told something, we're like, wait a minute, Yeah, why didn't you just do— no, don't, I didn't ask her to fix it. Okay, cool, I understand, I understand. So when we hear that as, you know, your typical dude, it sounds like it's, um, you know, where does, where do we draw the line between that and emotional punching bag? Where do we go from being the understanding guy just to the guy who sits there and goes, yeah, wow, cool, oh, that sucks, yeah, I can't believe— oh yeah, Mary, that bitch at work, yeah, right? It's like, really, is that it? Because yeah, I could do that, but It's, it, um, but sometimes, I mean, yeah, sometimes it is. But I'll tell you, and this is something we don't talk about often, is in a lot of men's minds, they hear something like that or they experience something like that, and no disrespect, but it lowers their respect for their partner. Because if she doesn't, if she doesn't, she's not on the same wavelength as me, which is there's an obvious solution here, take the dumb nail out of your head, dummy. If she's the type that's like, no, leave it in there, I just want to emote about it, we're just like, oh God. Oof.

Well, it's because men and women are seeing the problem differently. So Holly has this comment, understanding the old book of men are from Mars, women are from Venus. Yeah, I actually, I really believe that. Right? It's because like the problem, in the problem of, in the man's head, the problem is the nail. In the woman's head, the problem is the emotion. Right? And so like, they're just seeing the problem differently. So I totally hear you if you're like, well, obviously there's a solution here. Yes. If the problem is the nail, take it out of your head. Right. If the problem is I'm upset and I want to talk about it, taking the nail out of the head is not the solution to the actual problem that she's talking about. Right. So like, you know, she wants somebody to be on her side, right. To like understand, it's like the emotion is the problem, not Marriott works bitch, right? Or not, you know, my mom, I fight with my mom again, or whatever it is. Sometimes they do want a solution. Of course, a marriage, a partnership, like you have a sounding board. And if you're with somebody who you do respect, like, yeah, of course, like some of you often you're like, what do I do about this? And like you can talk about it, you know. But sometimes if you're just sort of venting and you had a bad day, you want somebody who can hold that space and not rush to like fix it. You know, or just you're concerned about the future, you're concerned about the state of the world or whatever, you know. I mean, things that are out of your control to fix, which is like lots of things happening. You want someone who's like, yeah, we'll get through it together. Like, this is hard, but like, we're in this, right? Not like, well, look at this, or well, at least, at least this, at least this, you know. I mean, sometimes you want like a, yeah, be in this with me, kind of sit on this bench of of feeling sad with me, you know.

So like, yeah, another wrinkle in this that adds more complexity and difficulty is that a lot of men will respond to all of this by saying, you know what, I hear you, I get it, but I sure as hell didn't have to do any of that at the very early stages of this relationship when we seem to be the most connected. Pre-kids, pre-marriage, the dating phase last— can last years, you know, 2, 3 years of a courtship of getting to know each other. Pre-all that stuff.

And he—

and the guy— men are very sensitive to this usually, and they will say, we had sex, I don't know how many times a week, every single week. We were writing love letters back and forth. I could just walk in the door and she's all over me. Hi handsome, how are you? Kisses, kisses, hugs, I love you texts at night, and the whole nine yards. Yeah. And, uh, when I look back and I say, was I the most loving, romantic, uh, um, what's the word I'm looking for, you know, connected individual with her? Not particularly. Kind of who I am now. And now suddenly, with the introduction of family, security, domesticity, safety, familiarity— yes, boredom is a part of that and everything— now all of a sudden the scales have tipped. And now it's like, no, the emotionality stuff is at the forefront. This— you walking in the door, this doesn't cut it anymore. And a lot of men are like, well, shit, I don't know. I've been sold a bit— bill of goods here. This is the old quote, bait and switch, is how a lot of men interpret that.

For sure. Yeah, totally. Yeah, lots to say on that. I mean, first of all, new relationship energy is a wonderful drug, right? NRE is a drug. I mean, it's just what it is, right? You're on a ton of hormones, dopamine, oxytocin, all this stuff that bonds you to someone when you are falling in love, when you're having a lot of great sex, when you're doing the love letters and the flowers and planning dates and all of this stuff, right? You, you are kind of drunk on that hormone, right? The NRE. Um, and so, A, I think people don't understand that, just that that is a thing that happens in the beginning, and then it wanes because novelty, evolution, all this stuff. Um, and, uh, you know, so that's— so if we sort of learned about this, if anyone taught us this, that this can happen in the beginning and then it fades and you still need to make your partner feel appreciated and understood. When men come to me and they say, "What is this? We had all this sex in the beginning, a bait and switch situation." First, I ask, "What were you doing in the beginning that you're no longer doing?" Which are often things like planning dates, compliments, making her feel special, being there emotionally, asking how your day was. I mean, so many married couples just literally don't ask about each other's days. Like, they don't have this connecting moment. They just come in and kids and all this stuff, and they don't connect. And in the beginning when you're dating, you are connecting. Like, you're learning about each other, you're talking about your past, you're talking about hopes for the future. All these intimate conversations that like bond you, that make you feel close and connected, that all often goes away in long-term relationships. Plus, like, kids change it. I mean, it changes people, because women more so than men, it just biologically does do that. So needs are different. Women need more emotional caretaking because they are the caretakers of young kids. The hormones change, of course. I mean, hormones change monthly, but like over time, of course, hormones change in both men and women, but it's more drastic in women, especially after childbirth or, you know, all that early years. And so their needs change. So men will say, I'm the same person. But A, like, how can you be? It's decades later. And B, like, well, maybe your partner isn't and you have to talk about it. You have to say, hey, this used to be important to me. Like, this is still, this is still important to me. How can we figure out how to make this work? Like, you know, it's just, people just don't know all these things that happen over time with all these life changes.

You know, would you agree with Michael from Facebook, his statement here, women expect the guy to change and then men, conversely, they expect women not to change.

Well, I think men want women to still continue to be these like fun, sexy person that they were. Yeah, yeah. I think what changes— I mean, as a human being, change is inevitable, right? Like, men and women both have to understand that people change, that things change, and it doesn't mean you can't continue to have a great sex life. And it's important. Of course, if it's important to you, it's important. Although men also often pick women that are not all that interested in sex in the beginning. And they, like you said before, they're sort of nice guy. They deny their own needs. And then they're drawn to people that are like, okay, this is fine. We're not having sex. Like, that's cool. And then, and then like users incompatible, right? Um, you know, so there's that. So there's also like the fundamental fact of incompatibility and picking a wrong partner, so to speak. So there's always that. But yeah, I mean, I think that's probably true, but I think that people change and that's sort of a fact of life. I see this with couples all the time too. The men will be like, I haven't changed. What I want is still important. I haven't changed at all. And well, kind of, I mean, you know, if you want to stay in this relationship, then like things have to, you know, you have to understand that your partner changes and their needs change too, you know?

Yeah. I think there's a part of me that says us men for generations have been kind of spoiled as far as relationships are concerned, that we were able to say breadwinner for a lot of the time, not all the time, breadwinner, patriarchal figure in, in the home. And therefore, just by virtue of being me and working really hard and coming home exhausted every day and done, that was the, that was the end of the game plan. And the, the, the family kind of catered to that man of like, you know, give dad his distance and here's your stiff drink, hun, and your hot meal and Dad, let's let Dad do his thing. He's the one responsible for taking care of all of this. And, um, we, you know, for generations, we didn't really have to worry about all this kind of stuff necessarily. Um, so harkening back to what I said earlier, the old paradigm shift, one way that I've kind of framed it, and it's kind of a cynical way of looking at this, but I think it's realistic, maybe a more masculine way of looking at this, is that in the, um, long-term relationship game It's almost as if Mother Nature is saying, with that new relationship energy, you two get together and make babies, please. It makes you over the top feeling in love. And when you accomplish that, and then the kids, after so many period of years, it's almost as if Mother Nature is saying, you've done your job, you can— you two can go separate ways now. Like, hence why, you know, men are looking around at all these women all around them, and hence why the wife is like, I don't really have all that much desire for him anymore, I'm more concerned with the kid and everything else. So it takes some concerted effort to go, "No, Mother Nature, we're going to fight against you," and come together. And that feels foreign to a lot of people. And there's even the message, Dr., of that is indicative, indicative of your relationship is not real. Yeah, if you have to fight, if you have to do all these things to keep the coupling together, um, then yeah, it's just not meant to be. You're supposed to be head over heels in love, lustful for each other, going at it 24/7, blah blah blah. If you feel anything varying from that, if the scale, if the little meter goes this way instead of this way, then eh, might as well just let him or her go. And I'm like, dude, you just, you've just thrown out 99.99% of all relationships in the history of mankind if you go down that road.

Totally.

This stuff's not so nice. Some of the stuff takes, drum roll, some work.

Some work, like anything, like anything, like anything, work. And yeah, people don't, you know, people are fed from an early age all these Disney movies and all this stuff, right? You're just supposed to look at someone, fall in love, that's it. It's easy. Love is supposed to be easy. Like, it's— relationships are supposed to be easy. It is not. I mean, love matters not ultimately for like long-term successful healthy relationships. You have do things to show your love, to show your love. Love is an action, it's a behavior, right? If you say, well, I love you, and you do nothing for the person, right? If your wife says, well, I love you, and never touches you, never is nice to you, never has sex with you, like, what, you know, like, what does that, what does that mean? Like, love doesn't keep a relationship together. Um, you know what you talked about, sort of like evolution biology. I mean, yeah, a lot of people also don't understand the kind of responsive and spontaneous desire and how women in long-term monogamous relationships have responsive desire, meaning they don't spontaneously want sex from their husbands. Like, they might when they're ovulating, right? That's like the time when maybe they are aroused. Other times it's, um, it just wanes. It's not a new partner. You've already procreated with this partner, like you said, and there's no novelty. There's no excitement. And so you have to feel relaxed. Responsive desire is like, if you're stressed, you're not going to want to have sex. Men, on the other hand, are spontaneous. They get turned on, generally speaking, obviously I'm not— but it just what I see in general. And James, I am not a man, obviously, but I, you know, I do see a lot of men. I, uh, you know, anyway, I, I, um, I think that spontaneous desire, you know, they don't understand this. Like, men and women both don't understand spontaneous desire, and that how women need to feel close and connected and relaxed in long-term relationships, like they're being taken care of, in order to want to get in the mood to have sex. And then if the sex is good then she will be aroused and want to have it. And women also have to understand that they have to do the work to maintain these relationships. And sometimes that means trying to get in the mood to have sex when you don't want to have sex. Like, you know, and so, so much of couples therapy that I see with long-term partners is education around sexual desire, response desire, spontaneous desire, and how they're both just different. There's no right or wrong. They're just different. And how do you like you said, Ralph Brewer, like, you know, try to like— but it doesn't mean that it can't work, but you have to do the work. And it is, um, it is just different. It's like, um, it's like— and there is, of course, a biological evolutionary component where like you want new partners. I mean, in theory, women should want a new partner every month, right? Every time they ovulate, to, you know, propagate the species. But this isn't the world we live in. We live in a world of heterosexual monogamy, which I think it's also changing, you know, I mean, the divorce is going up and, you know, people are realizing exactly what we're talking about, which is you don't actually need partners, you know, to have a successful, good, fulfilling life, you know, and marriage is not the be-all end-all.

Would you agree that it seems to be our natural biological tendency is serial, uh, serial monogamy? So pair up with one individual, stay with them, fall in love, do the kid thing, and then eventually drift and do that again with somebody else.

I mean, I think that some people with anxious attachment do that, you know, and like we're talking about, it's not necessarily the healthiest thing. You know, it's important to learn after the end of a relationship like, hey, what happened there? How can I be more confident in myself? What do I want? What am I looking for? The more you learn that about yourself, the more confident you could be. So serial monogamy, I happens, but I think it's a red flag personally. You know, I mean, I think it's, if you haven't spent time actually on your own cultivating your own interests, thinking about yourself, your kids, if applicable, you know, what kind of person you are, what kind of parent you are, work, et cetera, then you can't, you know, um, you just can't be a great partner.

Yeah. Yeah. When I say, you know, is it natural? That's strictly from the biological hormonal animalistic tendency point of view.

Yeah. I mean, I do think, listen, I mean, I think that like this sort of the divorce rate and people spending time alone, you know, I think it's, um, when you said before, like people don't need, it's more of a want. Yes and no. People do need love and care and affection and physical touch and sex. And like, it's, you know, I think that it's a human need. Like it's hard to not have that, you know, and so people are drawn, of course, to that. And I, and I, you know, I mean, people who, you know, physical touch is a buffer against anxiety and depression and better health outcomes and all this stuff. So, you know, I think that that's, that we sort of, that piece is important. And so this whole, like, you know, you don't need to be married, you don't need a relationship, like, yes. And I think that it's, you know, it's, of course, comes with its downsides.

Yeah, it seems to be— we have some people, um, probably more so, dare I say, your single divorced gals. We know that men are more apt to remarry than— divorced men are more apt to remarry compared to the divorced women. Seems that divorced women is— how ironic— are— tend to be the ones that are like, nah, I'm good, I'm good on my own, I'm cool, I've done the— I've done the whole raising kids and the husband. The husband was a— he was like having a third child, you know. A lot of women will say like, I don't want to go down that route again, this is it's much less stressful. Just be on my own, hang out with my girlfriends. And what they have determined, and some men the same, is that I can— all those needs you mentioned, which are very normal human needs, don't necessarily all have to be one individual. I can get this part of that need met with this one. My— hang out with my girlfriends for this, this, and this. I have a guy or two on the side that we meet every now and then for some hanky-panky, and, and so on and so forth. So that's one life model that a lot of people have. But it's— there's still a tendency in the human animal to pair up with one person and make them their primary partner. That seems to be a tendency across culturally, all over the world, throughout human history. Some people are sexually more not monogamous than other cultures and stuff, but they still all seem to have that primary person. So we all seem to be drawn to that, and some of us take it a little, a little hard when we don't have that that, that person that we match up with as a partner, and we lash out and we were very depressed by that lack of companionship, I guess you could say. Um, and then there's James saying— he's confused though— we say that women need sex in a relationship, but then they deny the husband. Uh, well, James, we're here. I'll speak, if you don't mind. Um, we just talked about that, that there's several components here. Maybe she has a lot of resentments and, and so forth towards the husband for a variety of reasons. Some valid, some not so valid depending on who you ask. And then we have compounding with that this very biological tendency in women to not have that over-the-top spontaneous desire for their partner through, you know, after the comfort, stability, and everything else sets in, kids come into the picture. Women will report, "It takes a lot to get me going, but I have to start to get going. I have to get in the right mindset to get going. I don't care." husband is the issue here. And this is an important point here, Alana, and this is where a lot of men throw their hands up and go, oh shit, here we go. You take that woman who says the spontaneous— oof, it ain't there, it takes a lot of work to get me going. There are a lot— as Emily Nagoski in her book Come As You Are said, there's a lot of brakes. You put the console in front of me of brakes and an accelerator. I have one accelerator and like 1,000 brakes. That's the typical woman, how it's engineered. A lot of brakes here that stop it. Well, you pull her out of that relationship and say, you're newly single again, here you go. That console changes to a whole bunch of accelerators, and that's where a lot of men go. Exhibit number whatever for why in the hell would a man get married if my woman's, uh, engineering changes to where she becomes this non-sexual creature? And then when she's single, we see, um, perfect example of this is when a woman is in an extramarital affair. Yeah, the affair, the affair is like an extra layer of sexy on top of the newness. It's the forbidden, the titillating, the, ooh, the naughty, getting away with something, exploring her independence as an independent woman again, having a little secret life. That's extra, extra super duper sexy, if you will. And so the men will discover the affair, and they'll discover thanks to dumb mobile phones and everything, they'll discover the details of said affair and they're like, who's this woman? Yeah, all of this shines a light on the same thing. We keep circling back to the same thing. When you are within the confines, as I often put it, of a long-term monogamous relationship, the sexy game changes completely. It's a totally different ball game. And if, and if guys, if you're hearing that and you say, then why the hell should men marry? Then yeah, maybe it's not for you, dude.

Yeah, that's cool.

Then don't marry. Date around, have a blast, have fun. But you— but at the same time, you can't complain about, sure would be nice to have a wife here on the couch next to me at night, you know, somebody to share my— somebody to share my life with. Somebody can have your cake and eat it too kind of thing.

Yeah, it just takes— it takes work. And when women in these long-term relationships feel also dismissed by their husbands, like their husband is not asking about their day, their husband doesn't care about their kid, the things that they care about, right? Like, oh, you know, little Timmy needs to be signed up for XYZ. Oh, whatever, that doesn't matter. It actually matters to her. Like, it matters to her. And when you dismiss what is important to her in a relationship, she is not going to want to have sex with you. She's not going to feel close with you. She's going to feel like you don't give a shit. And so why should she? And often people say this is a tit-for-tat situation. They'll come back at me and, you know, but It kind of is. I mean, that is the thing, because if different things matter to different people, then you have to do the thing that matters to your partner, or don't be in a relationship, and you don't have to do that, right? I mean, that is the thing. Like, you have to, you know, I mean, men reach out to me for couples therapy for a few— for like, they're not having enough sex, or it's not good, or recovery from affair. But oftentimes when I hear from men, "We're looking for couples therapy, we're not having enough sex," I'm kind of like, okay, I'm excited to see your dynamic because like, how do you treat your wife? Do you listen to her? Do you care about her? Are you nice to her? Are you kind to her? Are you warm to her? So many sessions, I'll have this phone call with the husband, "We're not having enough sex. I just want to be close to my wife." I don't know. And I'll see them in session, he's rolling his eyes at her. He's insulting her that she can't get on the Zoom at the right time. You know, I mean, he's mean to her. Of course she's not going to want to have sex with you. And on the flip side, I tell women all the time, you have to show up for your husband too. If you touch your husband also, you have to show him love and affection if you care about him and you love him. You know, so it's both, it's certainly both. But that's why women need sex in a relationship but deny the husband, because the husband doesn't treat them very well. They just don't.

You know, the, uh, the tit for tat thing is everything in this game. We— it's not— and it's not necessarily in terms of I do good thing, now you do good thing. It's in terms of you have hurt me, and now watch as I turn around and hurt you. And if you were to ask all these men in these situations, you know what they would tell you? I'll tell you why I'm being a dick to her, and I'll tell you why I'm dismissing her. This woman, she hasn't said good morning to me in the last 5 years.

She—

you know, I walk in the door, I walk in the door, she used to give me a kiss and say, how was your day? Now I walk in the door and she says, you forgot to take the trash out. Yesterday, 100%. And so I'm, I'm in essence pouting and saying, you know what, screw you then, and I'm just not going to do it. And here we are in this sexless marriage and two people are battling back and forth and launching missiles at each other, you know, across the— yeah, so totally. Um, it's, uh, somebody's got to shoot first as far as the good stuff is concerned.

Yeah, you gotta get out of the pattern, you know. I mean, you gotta get out of the pattern. And, you know, if you are committed to it and you love each other and like each other and you respect each other, then a lot can happen with just an understanding of a lot of these things that we just don't know about long-term relationships, about sexuality, about men and women. You know, so many of my sessions are like education, basically, like talking about the stuff that a lot of people don't really talk about. Um, there's a menopause question that I want to address.

Yes, yes, absolutely. Mr. Jack Lumen, uh, yeah, a regular here from YouTube, uh, this is— as I'm getting up there in age, I'll be in my 50s here soon, Um, this is a common thing we hear in our audience, and my wife is 44 years of age and the old perimenopause and all that good stuff. So I'm— and my wife's a medical doctor, so I'm well familiar with, with this whole world and the world of hormonal replacement therapy and everything else. This, Alana, as you know, is a huge freaking deal because this— we're just— we're talking about all this stuff, and you do this, I do that, you'd be— there's a big giant gorilla in the room saying called menopause that can just throw a wrench in this whole thing. And have you seen— is that a big major factor in a lot of the relationships falling apart that you've seen?

Yeah, I mean, well, just some things changing, you know. I mean, that's the thing is like, it's, you know, it's, it's change, right? Aging, just like anything else, you know. I mean, you can't, you know, men— it's not menopause, of course, but you can't run the same way you used to or lift as much or you know, have as much sex, have as many orgasms, erections. I mean, all these things change over time and people just don't really talk about it. It's just a natural progression of things. And there are many ways to stay intimate and connected and sexual even within the context of menopause. But, you know, you have to understand it. I mean, you actually have to understand like the biology of what's happening, the effect of it on energy, on mood, on, you know, comfort, comfort, like physical comfort, hot, cold, you know, all that stuff. Like your wife has to comfortable, like physically comfortable, right? And of course, sex drive, you know, with learning about it together, you can like make it up. They're all like, let's learn about menopause, let's learn about the effect of it. How is it showing up for you? What can I do? Like being— going at it as a team, like anything really. Like, this is the issue over here, and we are empathically joining together to solve this problem. That is not your— you don't want to ever have sex with me because you're going through menopause, as if it's like her fault that this is like what's happening, right? And so, you know, there's just— there's got to be a mutual kind of project to like understand what's going on and to figure out ways to still stay connected and sexual. And, you know, there's lots of ways— there's lots of ways to do that. And like, we also think of like sex in a very one-dimensional way. Like, there's lots of ways under the umbrella of sex to be sexual and connected, experiment and play. And that's what a lot of men are also missing. You know, they— women dismiss it, and for men, it's so much of like a playground. Like, this is how I— this is how I explore. This is like what's fun and exciting. And, you know, women don't understand that. Women often don't understand what sex means to men. And so, you know, I mean, that's sort of not, you know, but that's, um, you know, so you can still do that. With bodily changes, you know, and, um, and if not, if it's a huge thing for you, then, you know, you got to think about it.

It is a, it's a subject that gets, uh, really, uh, contentious, um, from my audience's point of view. It is because I deal with— there's two different camps that I see in this menopause fighting world, or pardon me, aging fighting world, men that fight aging. We have your super anxious guys that are like, if I don't keep up the best version of me, I'm going to lose my woman, I'm going to— no woman will want me. And then there's the really, uh, Type A hyperachiever guys. Both of them do the same thing, which is if there's a pill or a shot or a therapy or something that I can take that will help me stay 30 years old forever, give it to me now.

Yeah.

And even if, even if you were to tell these guys like, you're, you know, you're potentially shaving like 5 years off your life by injecting this and taking— they'll be Give it to me, because they want to, they want to be the most healthy, virile, young-feeling guy humanly possible. And then they take, they take that energy to wife, and wife's like, I'm gonna just grow old gracefully, and if that means going into grandma mode, that's what that means. And what he's hoping is that she will join him on this let's stay young forever thing. And a lot of women don't. They're just like, nah, I'm throwing my hands up saying it is what it is. Unfortunately, a lot of those women also follow that up with to say by saying, and the sex thing is over between us, I'm sorry, right? And, and if you're not cool with that, then, then go find you somebody else. We're divorcing, I guess. And the men are like, here I am trying like hell to keep my testosterone above 800, and I'm taking growth hormone, and da da da da da. And some even, you know, the cosmetic surgery thing has started to grow with men as well. And their wife's just like, that ain't me, dude. And that's kind of heartbreaking because what we want to hear is a woman really fighting for us Um, and what a lot of women unfortunately believe is that we as men expect perfection. I think they get a lot of that from Hollywood, pornography, and so forth, but we don't. What we love to see in our women is effort, like this— not necessarily the same level of effort that we do, but at least something. And, uh, unfortunately we hear a lot of women that are just like, nah, dude. And it kind of goes along with this once-in-long-term monogamy thing. You combine that with menopause and advancing aging, and you got a gal who's just like, I'm tired, I'm done, kids are out of the house, I just want to hang out with my ladies and have tea and watch Netflix on the couch. Go do your gym thing, go do your CrossFit thing, go do whatever you want to do, dude, but that ain't me. Sorry. Yeah, kind of sucks.

Totally. Yeah, I think that's really valid. Um, it does, it does happen though, you know, if somebody— if a woman is in that space and really loves and is committed to her husband, like, you know, she'll understand. I mean, and also, like, expectations have to actually match sort of reality. Like, neither person is gonna have the same type of sex they did when they're 25. And so, like, changing the sort of narrative of, like, what it means to be close and connected and have a fulfilling sex life later in life, it is just is different, like it's just different than what it's going to be. And men who deny their own aging too, it's just— it is denying reality. I mean, everybody ages. Every— if you're lucky, I mean, you know, if you're lucky you do, right? And so that's the alternative. Yeah, exactly. And so it's really just embracing like, okay, well, what is our different and new reality? And of course, if like with anything, like if women are like, I'm done, you know, sex is off the table, I'm never having sex with again, go do whatever, I don't care, then great. Then of course then the man is totally valid to leave. It would be the same thing as if men are like, I'm never, I'm never gonna go to a fancy dinner ever again, and if it's important to you, find someone else who will. Okay, you know.

Fight for a Better Now here says he's gonna call a little bit of bullshit on this. He says there are some women out there who are made comfortable by their husbands and they still shut down sex. So in other words, all the previous stuff we were talking about, but about being more emotionally available and being a good dude. And we have a lot of very anxious men who I've talked about. Fight for Better, now he's a regular on here. You've heard me talk about this Mr. Fight for, um, uh, years now. I'm like, yeah, we got anxious guys that are— if you put it on paper, you're like, what a good dude. I mean, this guy is trying. He's the most emotive, he's the most open, vulnerable, friendly, sweet If she says jump, he says how high. That guy.

Yeah.

And he's with a woman who just does not give a shit. Yeah. Fight for Better Now, that there are shitty wives married to really good dudes. It happens. And sorry, welcome to the real world. What do you recommend for those guys? To leave said situation and find a more suitable mate. You just are wildly mismatched and she wants nothing to do with you. That's it. Yeah, that's my takeaway.

Yeah, like I said, incompatibility is huge. Lack of— I mean, look, there's also an elephant in the room of like, you're not attracted, you know? I mean, and usually if that's the case, you never were. It doesn't change. Like, people understand aging, bodies change, like skin, you know, people generally understand that if you're attracted to your partner in the beginning, you are going to, generally speaking, remain attracted to them. Like, physically. If you never were attracted, then I mean, that's an elephant in the room. Like, that's a major problem. And so oftentimes you can think back. I see a lot of couples and I think, and I ask them the beginnings of their relationship, like what was their sex life in the beginning? Did they seem really into it? And like, often, much of the time, well, it wasn't that important. Yeah, I wasn't really that into it, but like I wanted, I wanted to get married and I, you know, other things were more important and all my friends were getting married and all this stuff. You weren't really all that into it in the beginning. Either you don't have that high of a sex drive or you were just not that into your partner. Not to mention, of course, all the messages we get about sex and all this stuff. I mean, so much of the conversation is also societal influences of all that.

Yeah, we don't live in a vacuum. There's a lot of societal influences about overall of this. But to Bo's point here from Facebook, I missed your comment earlier, Bo, so I'm not I'm not certain what this is referring to. Why does it seem so universal? I guess it being just everything we're talking about here. Why does this seem to be such a universal thing? Well, welcome to the human animal. We're kind of predictable in a lot of ways.

It just is. I mean, heterosexual long-term relationships, you know, I mean, it just is universal, which is like validating on one hand, like, hey, lots of people go through this. Lots of people talk about it. There's lots of support for what you're going through. And like, yeah, you know, like this is— this is right. This is the human experience with relationships and sex. And, you know, but it doesn't— you know, so much of it is just really not being able to predict, not knowing, you know, I mean, not knowing how long-term relationships play out, not seeing examples, of course, of relationships growing up, you know, the blueprints of what you see. So many, you know, there are so many reasons why relationships are difficult.

You know, with the caveat that, um, you guys watching this and commenting and so forth, you are somewhat in an echo chamber or a bubble, if you will, of information online. Once you like watch my stuff and other people's stuff, suddenly the algorithm starts spitting you all kinds of things. And after a while you're like, I think all marriages end up in cheating. I think all marriages end up in divorce. And I'll— no, they don't. Actually, technically a minority do. It's just that you're just seeing this information over and over, and I hear it every day too. And I, you know, I gotta say, I'm a human. I leave going, oh my God, marriages, Jesus Christ, most of these must fail. No, most don't. Um, there are, there are in fact secure human beings out there who have very loving sexual relationships till the day they die. Those people exist, believe it or not. It's just that we don't, we don't see them in our world, right?

Yeah, I don't, you know, I mean, I see the couples who come to me, you know, in crisis, and I come— my family history of divorce. I'm divorced myself. I mean, all, you know, I mean, so I also am in an echo chamber of like— so I have to work hard too to, you know, change my perspective on there are happy relationships and, you know, all, all that.

So yeah, we got people talking to each other in the comments. That's cute, saying howdy to each other. I always like that. We got a friendly bunch here. All right, well, and, um, SoYourWifeLeftYou.com, guys, check that out. And your book under the same name— the book is actually— did I put that? Yes, I did put it in the comments earlier, but I'm gonna paste it again for those that may have missed it. Let me go, uh, copy and paste.

Boom.

All right, so it's, it's a long title. So Your Wife Left You, Now What? A Clinical Psychologist's Guide to Life sex and dating post-divorce. And when we say clinical psychologist, that is Dr. Alana Hoffman here with us today, is in fact a clinical psychologist. And I was telling Alana when I saw her— please don't misconstrue, I'm not blowing smoke up your butt— but I was like, she looks very, very young for a doctor. So Alana is blessed with the good genes. That, guys, if you're wondering, like, Alana seems awful young to be a clinical psychologist. Yes, I'm not going to give away your age, No, it's okay.

I'm not ashamed of it because we all get old. Again, if we're lucky— I'm trying—

there you go, there you go. I love it. Yes.

Well, I'm turning 40.

I'm embarrassed these days to say I'm turning 50 this year. It's like, oh God, just saying that out loud. I am one— I am one of those guys that fights the aging thing. I, I do have a fear of aging. Absolutely. I'll put that out there.

I mean, you know, we live in the world we live in is a youth-obsessed culture, so it is very difficult to not fight that. I mean, I, you know, we're all human, but it is, you know, I mean, you have to— when you deny it, then you just think, you know, you just trick yourself into thinking you can do what you used to be able to do, and you don't just accept the reality of the situation, which is not a bad thing. Like, things just change and you change along with it.

And again, you know, there's a delicate balancing there of— there are proactive, healthy things to do, such as exercise, lifting weights, and things like that. And that does keep you above ground longer than the alternative. And some people saying, you know, you're going to your CrossFit class like, oh God, here he goes, midlife crisis. No, it's— I want to stay healthy and try to live and keep my bones and muscles, and God forbid I look good in the process, you know. Um, but what is interesting is, um, often we'll hear from a lot of ladies like, you're trying to fight Father Time and so forth. But at the same time, ladies, you guys have us beat on the cosmetic surgery thing big time. You still are way ahead, way ahead in that race.

Yeah.

And, uh, all the cosmetic procedures, they all basically mimic youthfulness is what all these people are trying to do. And men the same. So it's a universal human thing to hang on as much as we can to the youthfulness. And then if you want to look at it from the mating game perspective, that makes us more attractive to the opposite sex. We all know the lady who, post-divorce, give her a few months and you're like, who's this lady? She looks—

the glow up, the, the, the post-divorce glow up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And a lot of people, men and women both, don't like to admit that there's very much a biological I'm back on the market aspect to that.

But the other thing is that, you know, it's not, it's not necessarily an— I mean, yeah, it's intentional, like people care, but the post-divorce glow up is like so many people feel like they have the freedom to be able to focus on themselves, right? It's like women have the time to exercise, and they are spending their money the way they want to, and they're shopping, and their Botox, and whatever, all the stuff that is making them feel good because they are out of unhealthy, unhappy situations. And so, like, that's, you know, and they're taking trips, and they're connecting to their friends and their careers, and they're doing things that are important to them. And my point in the book for men is, like, you could do the same thing, right? Like, so your marriage is over, your wife left you, but, like, you have all this freedom to do all that stuff and like, you know, live a whole new life. Like it's not the end, it's the beginning. It's, you know, it's an opportunity. It's such an opportunity. You know, and if you look at it that way, it's not a failure. It's like an opportunity to do all this stuff. You too can have a post-divorce glow up, you know?

But unfortunately, I guess the devil's advocate, I don't know if that's the right term here or not. We often see that glow up mid-marriage during an affair.

Yes, yes. I mean, that is, you know, the wrong way.

The whole biological thing of mating dance, making myself look the best I can to attract and retain a mate. That's why men— we don't realize that. I don't think that we do the same thing. Early, early phase of relationship, we are, we are our most fit during that time. We try to project to, you know, I'm an ambitious guy, I'm a go-getter, look at everything I do. And then as marriage and everything, you know, continues on and Father Time marches on, we kind of suppress all of that. We become this comfortable, schlubby dad figure, and that's very common. And then something wakes us up to go, oh shit, I better get back in shape, I better work on my career again. And usually that thing is divorce.

Yeah.

And kind of smacks us upside the head. So can people work with you one-on-one if we have a guy who wants to talk to a gal and get your perspective on all this?

Yes. So I, I'm licensed in DC and Maryland and participating PSYPACT states. You can Google that or you can reach out to me and I can tell you if I am taking clients and have availability. And I also am soon to be starting a specifically divorce coaching, wherever, so, you know, not geographically limited, not therapy, but specifically for men, women, couples who have already decided, who are going through divorce, have decided like this is already over. And want coaching about how to look back at some of this stuff and how to move on to the future. So stay tuned for that because it is, uh, it's coming soon.

Very good. Excellent. Dr. Ilana Hoffman, thank you so very much. Appreciate you coming on with us today. Yeah, absolutely. Guys, thank you for joining us today. Check out our stuff. And as always, guys, help4men.com, check it out. In our private community, we have a support community for men called the Brotherhood. Check that out, help4men.com. You can jump right to the join page at help4men.com/join. And we have— we still have the special going on in celebration of reaching 200,000 followers on the Dad Starting Over page on Facebook. You can use the little coupon code 200K and you'll get 30% off membership to the Brotherhood. So check that out, the Brotherhood. All right, Dr. Alana Hoffman, thank you so very much. Appreciate you. Thank you. All right, guys, we'll see you.