Chat LIVE With Ralph (DSO) and Michelle Langley

All right, Michelle, we are live. At least I hope. We had a little bit of a, we had a little bit of a technical difficulty, folks, here. Michelle, um, we did, for those that didn't see it, we did a, um, uh, a pre-recorded interview for the Help for Men podcast, which by the way, Michelle, it's officially my most popular interview on that channel. I don't know if you saw, you beat the pants off, you beat the pants off of Dr. Orion Taraban. Orion is one of the most popular dudes in our relationship.

He just did an episode which is called The Rise of the Beta Male. I've only seen a few of his stuff, but I'm telling you, this is— you have to watch it. It is the best episode. It's probably only 30 minutes long, but it is so informative. People really need to watch it.

I have not seen that yet, so you're ahead of me. I need to watch that. He puts out a ton of stuff. Well, you beat the pants off him. I think you, you got like 5 or 6 times more views than what his interview did. So Michelle Langley, for those that don't know, uh, is the author of Women's Infidelity 1 and 2. These are 2 separate books that you can buy at— and I put a little banner here together, let me bring it up here— um, women'sinfidelity.com. There you go, they should see it on screen there, women'sinfidelity.com. Check it out. Well, we did the pre-recorded interview and Michelle's audio was not the greatest. She's basically using the audio microphone from her computer, and we had some complaints like, man, she's got to get a microphone. Well, to her credit, she got the microphone. If you— I don't know if you want to show it as proof. She has the Yeti microphone. I told her what to get. Boom, see, she's got it. But the dumb thing is, when she's plugging it in, it does not work with— for whatever reason. I'm sure we'll figure it out eventually, but for this purposes of this chat, we're gonna have to do the old-fashioned computer microphone because the Yeti is not cooperating for whatever reason. But we'll work through it. Say it again.

I said, which is befitting because I'm old.

Oh, you're not old. Don't be silly. You're old. All right. I do turn the big 5-0 this year, Michelle.

Oh, you do? How exciting.

Okay.

I hate to break it to you, but you're going to age out soon. A lot of people—

I'm going to age out soon. What the hell does that mean, age out?

That men or that women hit the wall, you know, like their 20s are when they're— Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, we don't talk about what it is for men. But I'll tell you what it is for men. It's in your 50s.

So if you're the 50s, and, and that— does that mean that the, the young ladies will no longer look at me the same? Is that what you're saying? Because I hit this proverbial male wall?

You can 100% be certain that if you marry a young beautiful woman, it is totally for your money. 100% guarantee. Cool.

All right. Yeah, well, I already got me one of those, thankfully. She's 6 years younger than me. No, no, but when we first— when we first got together, she was blessed with the looks of a gal much younger than her. And every now and then I would get the dirty, like, dude— and I'm like, she's only 6 years younger. Oh, okay. I got the— I got the judgment because I got the bald thing going on, you know. Instantly it ages me like 20 years. And, uh, what— by the way, this happened before I even hit 30. Just, just like that. Oh yeah, oh yeah, I had thick puffy afro head of hair, believe it or not. It was one of those. I had to, I had to tame it just— and I had a hairstylist or haircut lady, whatever you want to call her, years ago said, honey, you never have to worry about going bald with this head of hair. I'm like, oh shoot. And then just like that, it just immediately just started thinning out and started going back. And my dad was bald, so I know it's supposed to come from your mother's side of the family, but all her brothers balding as well, so Anyway, Bald Talk, ladies and gentlemen, with Ralph Brewer and Michelle Brewer coming to you live. And aging out men. Yeah, it's funny you say that. That is a— in our little world of male relationship talk, a lot of it is kind of sticking it back to the ladies because it's a lot of men that are really pissed at ladies. Ladies hurt them, cheated on them, which we're going to talk about and everything else. And we know innately that there's no better way to punch back at the ladies than to say you're an old woman and you have no value anymore. You have hit the wall and nobody wants you anymore or anything. And I always tell men, you know, for as much as you want to piss and moan about that, an attractive 50-something-year-old woman still beats the pants in the dating department off the attractive 50-some-year-old guy if she can play her cards right. There's a lot of men lined up to spend time with her, not so much with the average 50-some-year-old dude.

I say that men though have 10 years on women. So, okay, as a woman gets into her 50s— so 50, a woman is still— she can still be attractive because there's— she can buy her beauty back. But once a woman gets into her mid-50s, things start to happen. You can't do it. You can't buy body skin back, you know what I mean? So you can buy your face, you can put on hair extensions, but still, when you take out those hair extensions or you take off that wig, you've got old lady hair. You are an old lady. And so you can be with an older man because he'll, you know, it's like, hey, you look great for your age. But a younger guy is going to go, holy shit, you know, he knows that he's with an older woman.

So, yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, I got you. But, you know, and I, I think this is a big part of why, uh, here's a common thing we hear all the time. Here's a couple, they're in their 50s, she's hitting the menopause, and he's Mr. I'm starting to notice the Johnson's not working like it used to, or when I go to work out, it's just not enough oomph like it used to. So he goes to the doctor, and the doctor's like, you know, I can put you on the testosterone if you want. Your numbers are low enough that I can, you know, insurance will pay for it. And by the way, there's this thing called Cialis and Viagra that can help with that. And he comes back to the wife and says, ah, check it out. And I'm telling you, 9 times out of 10, the wife's like, no. I don't want my husband all hopped up on testosterone and Viagra and everything else. I want, you know, there's already this disparity of horniness. This is just going to grow the disparity. How about you come down more to my level, mister? And he's like, well, why don't you come up to my level? And now we're at this fight of, you know, two people. One is kind of succumbing to age as he sees it, the wife, and the other one's kind of battling the age, Mr. Viagra and testosterone. I see those dudes all the time.

And yeah, that Viagra man, and you tell me, I mean, I, you know Do the Viagra men want to have sex with their wives if their wives are aging naturally? You see, you know, one of the things that we're— because of what work we do, all we're hearing about is the, you know, the women that are cheating and the men that are trying to please, you know. But you go back to, you know, just 20 or 30 years, and it's men don't want to have sex with their wives. All that's happened is the roles have switched, and And I think, I believe during our podcast, yeah, I did. During our podcast, I talked about Dr. Schnarch's book, Intimacy and Desire. He explains that it doesn't matter whether you're male or female. In every relationship, there is a high desire partner and a low desire partner. It doesn't mean that one partner has high desire. It just means that it's higher than the other partner. Okay. And that partner can just as easily be a female. There are a lot of women out there whose husbands don't want to have sex with them. Okay, so, you know, I mean, there's a lot of men out there that they are not physically attracted to their wives. So it's not just that, you know what I mean? It's just that men today are experiencing relationship issues that women experienced and vice versa. You know, women are now in relationships with men that don't, uh, men that actually want to be with them, and they are facing the, um, the difficulty of staying attracted to someone who actually wants you. Because the primary, uh, feeling of, you know, love or excitement in marriage is rejection anxiety. If I'm not afraid of being rejected by you, I'm not going to be as amped up on amphetamine— that the amphetamine chemical that we experience from rejection anxiety. So I think that you had mentioned to me that you work with men who are primarily like the anxious type and the women that are avoidant. If you just view it from the perspective that there's only those two, so if I'm the one that wants you more, you're going to be not as excited because, God, she just wants me. You know what I mean? So that's just the way the relationships work. So as Schnarch explains, it doesn't matter whether you're talking about sex or anything else, the person with the most desire has the least power. Okay. So, you know, the other person is going to determine whether or not things happen because they're the ones with the low desire. And, you know, as he explains, in every relationship, there comes a point, or in almost all relationships, there comes a point where this is gonna be an issue. Okay, so which, you know, it's all about, uh, really, in my opinion, outgrowing, maturing, wanting what you can't have. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, that's a—

oh, go on.

Very— I was gonna say it's a very teenagery mindset, if you will, of, uh, of wanting what you can't have. And, you know, we all know the girl that as soon as she catches the boy, she's like, I don't want the boy anymore, and now I'm looking for the one who doesn't really pay me much attention. That's at a very visceral biological level, that's like the root of attraction. And especially, and especially in our lady friends, it seems.

And the system can be manipulated. In the past, the system was manipulated to make women always be the most frightened in the relationship. We were taught men don't want us, men only want you for sex. So if they had sex, the man would dump you. Do you see what I mean? Men were taught all women want is a relationship, all they want is a commitment. And Orion talks about that. He talks about that women want— that men want sex with no investment, women want commitment with no investment. I want to correct him on that. It's actually that women want relationship with no commitment. I work with women every day and men every day, and what the woman wants is to keep the husband as a resource. She doesn't want his commitment, like to be faithful and all that stuff. She just wants to make sure that he will be there for her. She wants to keep him as a resource even after they get divorced. So if she divorces him, she wants him to still feel obligated to her. This is why they live in limbo. That's the subtitle of my book, Living in Limbo. The woman actually prefers separation to divorce because this is how she can screw around, and it's also how she can keep the husband. So what she wants is both. And in your world, I know that you hear about hypergamy all the time. So do you see what I mean? So that's basically what she wants. So it's not that she wants a commitment from the man. He can screw other women, he can do whatever they want, but she wants to know that if she needs anything, he's still there. She doesn't want him to move on to another woman per se and cut her off. Do you know what I mean? So it's not about— yeah, or anything.

Unfortunately, we have, uh, with these anxious men that I talk about, they are preyed upon for their protecting, providing proclivities that they exhibit within a relationship. For example, I always remember this one guy who was divorced from his wife. She moved out, got her own place. She was already seeing another man, probably was before the divorce. And, um, she would routinely call him to say, there's something going on at the house, would you mind coming over here and helping me out with this? And the most popular story of his that I share with everybody is a giant tree fell down in the backyard. Would you come help me with this? I don't know what to do. And he's like, you got it. And he had a trailer and he had a chainsaw, and he went over there and cut up the thing and hauled it away for her. And I was like, why are you doing this, sir? And he's like, well, I have a chainsaw on a trailer, why the hell wouldn't I do it? What kind of dick would just say— yeah, what kind of dick would say, you know, no, take care of it yourself? I'm like, a guy who's no longer married to her. Like, It's not your responsibility. But as he saw it, like, no, I'm the man. I'm still— she had the kids over at the house, so he looked at— that was his excuse. I don't want my kids, you know, seeing this giant tree in their backyard. I'll come over and cut it up, damn it. So there's a very, um, oh, I don't know, it's a biological imperative that we as a man to protect and to serve and so forth. And so some of the women in our lives take advantage of that, sure, after the fact. And that woman is a perfect illustration of what you just said, that she had the best of both worlds. She was exploring her sexuality and as a new single gal, and experiencing the high of that and, oh shit, there's a tree in my backyard. Who do I call?

Right.

John, my ex-husband.

If you view it from the perspective that all of our relationships mimic our— the parent-child relationship until you mature to a certain level. So he now is playing the role. He thinks he's a protector. No, he's playing the role of mommy. So she wants to go out and find a masculine man and he's the mommy, the safety figure. So romantic relationships are how we satisfy our need for family as we get older. Okay, so keeping a romantic partner in your life, being just friends— and that's what women do, they always transition a man into friendship because he's moving into a family role now. And when a woman ends a relationship with a man, and vice versa, when a, when a man ends a relationship woman. When you're the one that ends the relationship, you still have that power over the person. Do you see what I mean? Because that person is usually still attracted to you. They don't want the relationship to end. So that person will stay in your life and do things for you thinking that maybe you'll come back.

There you go. That's exactly right. Yeah.

Yeah. So this is just— and that mimics that same type of connection, is like the parent-child for connection. One person's like, plays the cute, adorable, you know, he's still attracted, you know, even though I broke up with you and ripped out your heart and fucked your best friend, you know, you still love me though, right? Do you see what I mean? And so this is the type of thing, because the things that these women are doing to these men are horrible. And you know, the, uh, and just because it's going on right now, I'm going to bring it up even though it's super extreme, but think about the Diddy case. If you haven't heard about it, he's having men pee in her mouth. Okay, so as you're taking a drink, there's a classic spit take there. That's good stuff.

I hadn't heard that, but thanks, Michelle.

Appreciate that. She's saying, but I didn't— why did you let him do that? Well, I didn't want to disappoint him.

Yeah, well, you're pointing to, uh, women are far more agreeable than men usually because they don't want to rock the boat, be seen as a bitch, and cause all kinds of chaos.

And you Yeah, not your anxious men, because they're like women.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's why I'm cutting down a tree even though she's sleeping with my friend or my boss or some other horrible thing. I mean, like, you know, you've heard horrible stories, and the stories that I've heard, and it's cheating with men in the circle, like in the person's circles, cheating with their husband's employees, cheating with— I mean, just really you know, horrible things, and the man's still there for her. He's still cutting down the trees.

Yep, still cutting down the trees. And we see often those men are the— I was just talking about this the other day with somebody, something that I surprisingly— it shows my naïveté possibly— that I've heard on more than one occasion. You always hear about these, um, authority figures. Who did your wife have an affair with? This policeman that we know, this— these really protectors, authority figure types. But I often hear the, the pastor in our church. Oh yeah, just leader in our church. That's, uh, one that I've heard more often than I thought I would. Again, you just think because of the religious. Why is that?

Well, I used to, uh, well, being a female, I know why, just naturally. But, uh, I used to, uh, be a director for the weight loss clinic. So people would come in and, you know, they'd talk about their issues with food and things. And anyway, I had several priests that came in, and some of them were really young, you know, as they were going through their weight loss journey. And anyway, I remember this one guy, he was really young, and we were talking about why he got involved with this. And, you know, and, you know, so we talked about women being attracted to him, and he goes, "The moment I became a priest." And I'm like, yeah, haven't you seen— you should watch the, uh, movie The Thorn Birds. It'll explain it to you.

That's an old—

yeah, yeah, because he can't have sex. So I want the guy that can't have sex with me. I want to close that guy. That's the guy I want to try.

Yeah, if I, if I can pull, if I can pull him from the Almighty.

Yes.

Wow, talk about an ego stroke.

Yeah, yeah, of course I won't want him after I do, but I want to, I want to, I want to see if I can close that deal. You know, that's what it is, is he's excited. So it all of, you know, when I was going through, uh, I went through some of the comments after our podcast and someone had mentioned I talked about sex with a story and someone said it's called a fantasy. I want to clarify that sex with a story, the story involves why we can't be together, but why we're meant for each other. So, you know, if you think about the really popular movies that appeal to women, You know, the vampire movies. We can't— we're meant to be together, but if we're together, I'll die because you'll kill me. You know what I mean? The werewolf movie. If I touch you, I might eat you. That type of thing. So it's always about all of this passion that can't be acted upon. So that's what creates the passion, is that we can't act on it. So she's wanting that tension, that I can't have you type thing.

Okay, so which all naturally dissipates when in a long-term monogamous committed relationship, which is why it's so goddamn difficult to keep up the— keep the spark alive, as they always say, and why it takes some skill and know-how and fooling the system, as I often call it. And you alluded to that earlier, kind of tricking the system into, you know, there's still a hint of what we could say danger, excitement, uncertainty. Whatever it may be, healthy anxiety, positive emotional tension I've heard people call it, whatever. You have to have some sprinkling of that in there in some form, otherwise it just goes into roommate territory.

Well, I think what Schnarch— see, you know, Schnarch operates from a developmental stance, so it's your ability to regulate yourself. So I'm not going to cave in and say something just to make you feel good. Do you see what I mean? In relationships, you're always full of shit because, "Oh, I don't want to start any, you know, oh, I don't want to have that conversation. Oh, I'm not going to say this." But when you're perfectly okay, you can say that and you're not afraid. I'm not afraid of you leaving. I can regulate myself, you know. So, David Hawkins, he, you know, there's different levels of consciousness. He simplifies the levels of consciousness into 3. And the first one is basically where you're kind of helpless, you know, which would be kind of like a, you know, like that, you know, Diddy's girlfriend, like she just could, you know, she would just drop to the floor when he would start, you know, I can't, I have no power. And then the second level is where you are, it's where you have a little more power, but you're in the game playing mode. Sometimes you're the top dog, sometimes you're the bottom dog. This is where most people live. Okay, so we pretend that we're more mature than we actually are. We pretend that, oh, that's high school behavior, yet the overwhelming majority of adults function at that level and they just pretend to be mature, you know. So at the highest level is a level of peace. You don't play those games. And men will say to me all the time, well, I don't want to play games. People who don't play games, who don't want to play games, don't play them. People who are losing the game say, I don't want to play games. Okay, it's a tactic to try to gain control, you know, to make the other person look like they're immature. Okay, so that's what I talk about when you have to move into a new level of development. When you become— you're able to see both sides, the whole picture. You're not half-brain anymore, okay? You can see both sides, and you're not fooled by either side. You understand it. You're not angry anymore. So here's the problem with, you know, like the men in the manosphere, you know, which I think it's a good thing that men are learning all these things. I think that's excellent. But the problem is, if you get stuck there, you're stuck in believing— it's like you're getting better at the game But that just means that you're still playing the game. And if you're still playing the game, you will lose 50% of the time because that's how the game works. Okay. So anyway, you have to be at a point to where you're ready to just move out of that. And when you're ready to move out of that is when you develop a relationship with yourself. Okay. So you become the person that takes absolute responsibility for your internal state. And then, and you learn how to regulate yourself, and you don't— you're not attracted to any of that stuff anymore. So that's what they mean by wholeness. It's when the two sides of the brain are working together and you don't feel that longing or that desperation and that lust. You don't experience lust in the same way that you used to. It doesn't mean that you can't look at somebody and go, oh my God, you know, but it's more just like a passing cloud. You know, so, and that's all it is. It doesn't, you know, take a hold of you, you know. So something else that, uh, I just saw a clip of, um, is— do you know who, um, what's his first name? Bourdain.

Anthony Bourdain.

Anthony Bourdain. So did you— have you— do you know anything about him killing himself? Like, what that was all about?

I actually wrote a big article about it. Yeah.

Oh, you did? What was the name of the article?

I'll have to, I'll have to find it for you. I don't even know if it's still up there anymore. I wrote it years ago, back when he died. But yeah, I researched the whole thing, the origin of it and how he met that woman, uh, whose name is escaping me right now, and, uh, her background and how it all ended with the infidelity. And he was just too much for him, and he was an ex-addict, which helped contribute to all this and everything else. It was, uh, interesting.

Yeah. So I just saw a clip from Joe Rogan. It was just a little clip, and, you know, Joe Rogan apparently was friends with him and said he was, you know, great guy, really sensitive stuff and said, oh, I just wish I could have been there, or whatever. Well, I read a, um, um, what do they call it, uh, an excerpt from the book that was written about him with the last text messages with that girl. Were you aware of that? Like, you know, she said, put bust in my balls, you know, because right before he killed himself. It was very sad. But the bottom line is that he was not a faithful guy. He Women were very attracted to him, one because of his status, and the second reason is because he was tall. If you don't understand height with women, it's just incredible. So he had a body that women like, which is tall and slim.

Lean, tall, slim, yeah.

Yeah. And so anyway, um, I'm sure that because of his fame and stuff, women were just all over him. That he was getting to be— he was aging out. Okay, so, so one, women were not, uh, you know, he didn't want to be faithful to women because of course they wanted him and he couldn't experience that rejection anxiety, which is the reason we get the excitement feeling and the adrenaline, all that stuff. He suffered from depression, you know. So when he met this girl, she was like 20 years younger than him. So he met a woman who wasn't as attracted to him as he was to her. So he was so stimulated by the amphetamine feeling that we get when we're attracted to someone, that probably raised his depression because it said he was happier than he'd ever been. Well, then she— but she just didn't feel about him the same way. It does not matter how much fame you have, how tall you are, if you're an old man with a beautiful woman, There was no comparison to them. So, and this is the thing when people talk about hypergamy, so there's different definitions for it, but I think Orion uses this definition. I could be wrong, so correct me if I, if I am, that women want to date up. Is that his, you know, they want someone better than them? Is that correct?

Usually of equal, or at least, at least equal, same social hierarchy or up is the And men want people better than them too, physically better.

Okay, so he was wanting a woman that was way out of his league. I don't care how much money you have, how much status you have, how tall you are, you're fucking old.

What do we call that lady? The trophy wife.

Yeah, but she wasn't— that's what we call it— to her. Now that women support themselves old men are not valuable to them. So he was paying her money, like giving her money, and there was like some really shitty stuff if you investigated it, you know, like some—

oh, he was paying off people and all kinds of things for her.

Oh yeah, someone underage, you know, she was bad news.

She was bad news. Yeah.

Yeah. So anyway, this is the— that's the equivalent of the female wanting the bad boy. That's— and so that's your anxious type too.

Mm-hmm.

You want that unattainable, I can't get through, or to— oh, I'm just reaching, reaching, reaching. That's the way women are in relationships. That's the way that they traditionally were because the system was designed to make relationships more important to them than they were to men. So anyway, either sex can be vulnerable to that. You know, so, and I think that Anthony Bourdain, I mean, he ended up killing himself over it, you know, because this woman was— she wasn't into him because he was an old man. And that's what older men need to realize, is that, you know, the woman is— you— it's always about money. And I had an older man who was married to a younger woman, and of course nobody talks about this very much, but if you're in that type of situation, if you're if you deal with men like that on a regular basis, you'll find that those men are treated very badly by their wives. Their wives don't have sex with them once they're married. Okay, once they're married, their wife's like, you know, she doesn't want to have sex with him. She spends his money, and then, and at any time she can leave because she can take his money or take a portion of it. Do you see what I mean? Even Kevin Costner's wife, who she signed a prenup, she tried to do it anyway, you know. So anyway, my point is I had this, uh, man, he said, well, Michelle, isn't it possible for a younger woman to love an older man? And I said, well, you tell me. You will never find an old man married to a young, beautiful woman if he doesn't have money. Have you ever met an old plumber with a young, beautiful wife?

I'm sure it exists out there, but I don't know of them.

No. You ever met an old, you know, a 7-Eleven worker with a young beautiful wife? No. So could your wife love you?

Yes.

But without that— that is the factor. Do you see what I mean? Like, if you take away any money, that— that's why— why would the younger woman be with someone? She's sacrificing physical attraction. For safety.

And you know, we, we see this played out in very obvious ways by a lot of men. Um, I, I don't know if you're familiar with this, there's this online movement of guys— I don't think it's organized in any way— but they call themselves Passport Bros, meaning they get their pass— they get their passport and they go overseas to Philippines, Thailand, maybe South America, a lot of your more, let's be honest, economically downtrodden areas. And they see a lot of very attractive very, um, oh, how to say it, agreeable, flirtatious, over-the-top sexual women who are like, hello, Mr. 57-year-old American man who can take care of me. And they get treated like a king. And these men like live out their retirement years in these communities and just say, guys, you're missing out. I come over here and I'm— but if you ask them, they would say, yeah, I know why. It's because, yes, I provide for her and I help, you know, it doesn't cost me much The dollar is very valuable over here. I can spend $100 and they, they look at me like I'm a millionaire, and I take care of our family, and I do this and I do that, but in turn I get treated like a king. They're reversing their hands, the hands of time, and going back to the old paradigm, the way it used to be. Yeah, that's, that's what they're more comfortable in. And so it's, it's interesting to see there's this whole movement of men online. Once you see it, my, my social media feed is just flooded with these men. Like, some of them are young, by the way. It's not always older men.

Right.

And, uh, they're all like, we love it over here, we're treated so well, and look at all these women fawning over me.

Well, if when you talk to an alpha male, an alpha male understands transaction. So, and I had an alpha male tell me, he goes, I don't care if she's only with me for my money as long as she does the shit she's supposed to do. So if she fulfills her part of the bargain bargain. He's like, I could go mine. He goes that— he goes, we— he goes, as a man, men understand these things, you know. So it's the, the women treating you with disrespect. So you're giving them— you're doing the thing that you're supposed to do and you're being treated horribly. That's the problem, to see what I mean. So that's where the— where it's like, why would you put up with that? And I really do think that, uh, you know, I think that, that so many men are becoming so aware of this stuff that they are trying to figure out how to deal with it. You know, they're trying to figure out, how can I deal with this problem? And so, you know, they are trying different things, but I can't imagine, you know, because men ask me all the time what I think about marriage. As I would never— if I was a man, I would never marry a woman. Why would I do that?

Interesting you say that. Wow. Yeah.

Why would I enter into an unfair agreement? So if I'm going to do all this stuff and I— and you're not going to be happy anyway and you can take half of my stuff, you know, as a provider. Now, if we're equal, So it's safer to enter into a marriage. I would never enter into a marriage. Let me correct that. If the woman was less successful than me, I'd marry a woman who was more successful.

You're hitting on a touchy subject, my friend, because this is something I've brought up myself. My wife, I don't know if I told you this, I am married and my wife is a surgeon. She's a medical doctor, so she can take care of herself. She doesn't need me. Now, she and I spoke, this was years ago, we spoke on a podcast and I asked her, I said, do you think that I would have married a woman who was— I don't know why I always use this as an example, and apparently it insults people— but I said, if you were a Walmart cashier? And she said, probably if I were hot enough, yes. And I go, actually, no, I wouldn't. And she's like, why not? And I said, because I've been doing this for over a decade now, doing this, talking to guys about all this stuff and helping out dudes. I've heard enough horror stories where I know no matter how in love you are at the beginning All it takes is that woman to go, I think I'm done with you, and there goes half my 401k, and I don't want to put myself at risk. That's a complete shift from what it used to be. Now we have all these men acting like these women and saying, you know, I'm looking for somebody who's a little bit up there that I don't have to worry about. Because whether it's naive of me or not, the presumption is that if she doesn't need me for my money, then our union, our, our relationship must be based on something deeper, a genuine love and appreciation, respect for each other. Because if I get hit by a bus tomorrow and I can't work anymore, she'd be like, I don't really need him for his money, that's fine, I'll help take care of him. And versus this other woman, I've heard those horror stories. Man is in some horrible accident and he's, you know, he can't work for the next 6 months and income's not coming in, she's like, see you later. Yeah, that sucks that that happens. So I did— I guess I didn't want to put— that may be very, um, cynical of me, negative of me, but I didn't want to put my— or rational and pragmatic of me, I didn't want to put myself in that position.

You know, women respect that. I mean, to me, I mean, for that to be a consideration, that means that you put some thought into it. It's just like when a man is with a, uh, a woman, if he's wealthy or whatever, he's with a woman that's 20 years younger. It's kind of hard for some women to respect that man. And it's not like shaming him, like something— think, oh, they— women just want to shame us. No, it's because we know as women that the girl— nobody envies you. Like, nobody envies Amal Clooney. And George Clooney is a billionaire. But the problem is, is that George Clooney got married like right when he was starting to age out. So he got a beautiful, smart woman, you know. But I mean, I think he's like 62 or 63 now.

I saw him recently on television. I said, oh, it finally caught up to him. Yeah, he is. He's past the silver fox, you know. Yeah, he's now an old man. Sad to see. You know who's holding it together? Brad Pitt's holding it together though. He's looking pretty good now. He has some work done.

He's probably had a lot of work done, but I have to tell you, he's, you know, He's no comparison to young Brad Pitt.

Oh yeah, so that's a—

that some men don't realize that, you know, like, for a man may find a woman, uh, the most physically beautiful in her 20s, you know, men are probably their hottest between 28 and 35, you know, that like they're still young enough to have that energy, that masculine energy, because you know, as men get older they get tired, you know, whereas that youthful energy and they're on fire and they're just gonna— you know, if you watch some of these videos of these young guys teaching guys how to make money and stuff, you just see all that enthusiasm. So, you know, it's this— you know, women like that. So if you go back, Brad Pitt was stunning. I don't know like how tall he is and that type of thing, but he's symmetrical. He was absolutely stunning. He's not Brad Pitt of young, you know what I mean? Like, he doesn't have that, that youth, you know, that he had before that, you know. He's an attractive older man. So just like you would look at a woman and go, she's an attractive older woman, so that's Brad Pitt. He's an attractive older man.

Yeah, there was, uh, I don't know if you've seen it, there was, um, these online dating websites, uh, OKCupid was a huge one. I don't know if they're still around, if they're still big, but they made a lot of waves by putting out a lot of data that they had accumulated, this anonymous data from their, their membership, so they could see the behavior of people when they didn't think anybody was looking. We can see what the men are clicking on, what the women are clicking on and liking and messaging. And so, and it was a major eye-opener for a lot of people. And one of the things was the men spent, regardless of the man's age whether he was 22 or he was 82, he— they were spending an inordinate amount of time looking at the profiles and liking and messaging or whatever of women that were around 20 to 24. All the way down the line, it was the same. Versus the women— the women there who they were messaging was right alongside their own age. So if it was a 24-year-old, she was around 24 to 26. And 30-year-olds and on down the line, it just followed the line perfectly. And a lot of women looked at that, it's like Exhibit A for just how shallow and superficial men are when it comes to the looks.

If you believe that you can get it, like, I see that's the one of the things that I'm seeing with older women today is that they're becoming delusional. Like, they actually think that they can get these young guys because they think, oh, I have money and I have, uh, the money to buy, like, they should do all this stuff to their face and you know what I mean, like to buy back their beauty. So they're like men now and think, well, maybe I can have it like these men. And some of them can, if they have enough money, they might be able to buy a woman, a young woman, to spend time with them. But they are buying it, you know what I mean? And so that— I've had women who tell me who are angry that their young boyfriend doesn't pay for more stuff, and I have to break it to them. That's the reason he's dating you, you know. So I mean, you— that's like he's trading off, like, yeah, I'm having— I'm having sex with this older lady, but you know, well, she pays for everything. It's like the payoff, because he can be with a younger, you know what I mean? So in terms of, uh, you know, physical attractive— attractiveness, all of us are attracted to youth. But in the past, like, women were always looking at things from a more practical perspective. If I don't have access to resources, then I need a man who can support me. So when a woman would say— I had this woman when I was younger, you know, she was going, 'Oh, I just want a distinguished man,' which translated to, 'I want a man that's got money.' That's what that meant, you know what I mean? So she, she was looking for a man to support her. So when women have their own money, they, they just start looking at physical beauty. And a lot of them today actually think that they can be with younger men. But as you start getting older, it becomes very obvious that that younger man doesn't want to be, you know what I mean? He's not attracted to his old wife, you know.

And if he is, we, we, we categorize it as something akin to a fetish. It's out there that it must be something deviant in his sexual behavior, which is kind of sad.

But yeah, I, I think that that would be a very difficult, uh, way to live, to deal with that. And again, once you move out of— into a different level of function, you don't have any of these problems because you just— you kind of— you're not trying to find out ways to you know, buck the system. Oh, I'll get my eyes done. Oh, I'll get a boob job. Oh, I'll get a tummy tuck. And then, you know, you just accept that you're aging. It's a part of the process. You can still look at someone and go, oh, I remember, I remember that. You know what I mean? But yeah, you let it go. You let it go.

Yeah. I'm going to point out some comments here. We got Nick from YouTube says— Nick from YouTube says, I like the brutal honesty that Michelle gave in that last interview. Very Very refreshing as a man to hear. Well, thank you. Um, thank you for watching that first. Yeah, that was a popular one, and I think a lot of people will be happy to see Michelle here with us. And Michelle comes to us from— let me bring it up here, hold on— womensinfidelity.com. Go check it out, and people can book time with you, Michelle, if they want to talk to you one-on-one. And now, somebody that would come to you, I would assume, would be a guy who's like, oh shit, I caught my wife cheating. I want to come to terms with this and better understand what happened. But I assume you also hear from women saying, I'm thinking of, or I have committed infidelity. I'm having a difficult time wrapping my head around why I'm doing this, perhaps.

Yeah. So I deal with women who are trying to break out of limbo. They're having an affair. They're confused. Should I get married? Should I get divorced? And I deal with men that are trying to save their marriages. So I very seldom deal with men, uh, that it's after the fact. I have had several people that watch the podcast that weren't in the situation though that contacted me just to get questions. Um, but the men that, that I primarily work with, their wives are cheating and their wives are in limbo and they're desperate to save their marriages. Now I did see in the comments that someone said, uh, I can't understand why someone would want to save their marriage if their wife is cheating. The bottom line is that a large number of people want to try to save their marriage. So even though some people wouldn't, and I think that the more developed you are, it's like you, you would go, oh, I under— you know, you would separate yourself from that immediately, you know. Uh, but anyway, there are a large number of people that want to save their marriage. There is an appropriate way to respond to infidelity. If you respond to infidelity or an affair in your relationship appropriately, you've got about a 50% chance of saving your relationship. If you respond inappropriately by— and I'll kind of give you like how it works out. If you respond, you can become— there's only a few things you can do. So as Shark said, there's 4 things you can do. You become dominant, you can become submissive, you can grow, transcend that level, Or you can just end the relationship. Okay, but I want to point out, I really think that, you know, ending the relationship can be an act of dominance, you know, and growing— a lot of people who become submissive are pretending that they're trying to grow. So keep that in mind. But if you become submissive, pleasing, uh, you, you have about a 0 to 1% chance, and I'll tell men that. That, you know, and if she gets some type of illness, you know, she gets cancer next week, maybe the relationship will save. But other than that, you're going to get divorced. If you become dominant, you've got about a 25% chance. But people don't understand what dominance means. To be dominant means I'm the one that cares less. So if you're desperately trying to save the relationship or try online reading all this shit, you're not the one that cares less. You You cannot fake dominance because it means I care less about the relationship. You know, when you think about dominant and submissive behavior, the dominant person pretends not to care. The submissive person pretends to care. These are strategies. And so we have this impulse that determines whether we're stronger or weaker, that it's always being activated. So we can read this just like animals. Um, so if we detect that we're stronger, we have more power, meaning they want us more, we'll start sending dominant signals. If we detect that they want us less, we'll start sending submissive signals. So anyway, but yes, you can save a relationship. It requires, like I tell the men I work with, it requires the discipline of an athlete. So you have to really want to do it. What most people want to do the person in the, uh, like men, because that's what I'm dealing with, who are trying— who are being cheated on. What people in that situation typically do is exactly what Diddy's girlfriend did, is she's gonna keep— she's gonna remain compliant, keep going along, going along, going along, looking for an opportunity to exit, you know. So what men are doing is they're waiting for their feelings for their wife to die, waiting for them to, you know, meet someone else. Because this is the other thing that people commented on during our podcast is I mentioned that men often continue to hold on in order to torture their wives. That would be what I call a Stage 4 behavior. Men move through 4 specific stages after their wife cheats. And so the first stage is when they're genuinely confused, hurt, heartbroken, And they're really, they don't know, they want to understand what's happening. Then they move into an observant mode. Then they move into a game-playing mode where they're vacillating between dominant and submissive behavior. And then they get to where they don't care, they're just, you know, messing with her. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's like, hey, I'm not going to look like the bad guy. So it's a very, you know, it's a process that men go through that when you read it, because I wrote these 4 stages. You're just like, oh my God, it's very predictable. You know, it's when you're— when your emotions lead your behavior, you— your feelings are in charge, which means I can't leave this relationship until I feel like it. And so in order to feel like it, you're going to have to withstand a tremendous amount of abuse. That's how you get to a point to where you feel like it.

And, you know, and The average, the average man is so sex-focused that what helps to cloud his judgment is often there is a period of what they call hysterical bonding after the, uh, discovery of an affair. So all these men will tell me, I'm telling you, Ralph, we've had the most amazing last 3 weeks. We've been more emotionally connected, and we've done sexual things with each other that we haven't done in years and years, if ever. And, uh, it's like, yeah, it's going to fall off a cliff here soon. And sure, inevitably it does. It just stops. They both kind of wake up from their stupor.

Yeah, well, that's only if the woman suspects the husband's moving on. If the husband's becoming passive and pleasing, the woman's not having sex with him. The woman will often— you know, I have a chapter in my book called, uh, Men Send Flowers, Women Give Blowjobs When They Cheat. So, so if a woman suspects that her husband's moving on, and, you know, then she'll give him a blowjob. It was like unbelievable the amount of times this would happen. But if she knows that he's so— if she believes he's so pathetic, he's not going anywhere, if he's really passive—

the opposite.

Yeah, yeah, he's, she's not getting any sex. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've said to a man, you can't say that it's because of the sex because you're not getting laid. That other guy is. You're paying for that other guy, you know what I mean? Like, it's just amazing, like, the, the amount of disrespect. And, you know, so I— this is like how men kind of— they're trying to, uh, you know, make them— it's like an ego thing, trying to make themselves feel better. Well, you know, it's because of the sex. Nobody— you're not getting laid. You are not getting laid. That guy is. You know, so it isn't the sex. And go jerk off, like, get yourself under control, you know, because think clearly.

The old post-nut clarity, as they call it.

Yeah, nothing feels better than doing the right thing. It really doesn't. So all of this pain that people are experiencing, from the woman and the man, it's because you're not doing the right thing. The moment you go, you know, and you just release all that energy and all that pain and move through the, the grieving process. Because, you know, some people think that we jump around the grieving process. We, you know, I find that the stages of grief, we move through them in order unless we suppress our anger, which is what women try to do. I mentioned that on the podcast, as women try to control men's anger. That's the second stage of grief So the first stage is denial, then I get angry. Well, the woman tries to keep them from getting angry. I still love you, I'm just confused, I don't know what I want. So the man suppresses his anger, and so he does hopscotch with denial and bargaining. Just see what I mean? He suppresses his anger because, well, I don't want to rock the boat. Let yourself get pissed. I mean, like, you ride it out. My wife is got another penis in her mouth right now. You know what I mean? You might want to cut that part out.

No, that's good. Hey, you know what, I'm listening to this, so— and there's a viral clip, there's a viral clip. You're good, you're a treasure trove of viral clips there. But you know, often, often with these guys, when their initial reaction is one of submissiveness and yes dear, whatever you say dear, and stays in the state of limbo, which is very much directed by her. She's very much in and out. I don't know if I want to stay in this relationship or not. And the man's just kind of dutifully sitting back saying, okay dear, you tell me when it is you're ready. I'm here for you no matter what, even though you're actively having sex with other men. Um, I, I— this relationship must stay. What you see is not something that's brand new. It's not like this man was some kind of quasi-alpha male dude all along and this is suddenly new to him. This is usually a continuation of a mindset and a set of behaviors on the man's part. That's been going on for sometimes decades. This is just a continuation of that. Well, of course he's acting that way because he's been, yes dear, whatever you say dear, codependent Mr. Nice Guy dude for the entirety of the relationship, which is a big part of what got him in the mess to begin with. And often, from what I talk to these guys, um, you tell me if you hear different, often the end result is, dude, 20 years ago you got with a gal you should have never been with in the first place. This relationship was built on dysfunction at its foundation, and you knew it all along, didn't you? Yeah. And you saw all kinds of red flags all along, didn't you? Sure did. And let me guess, this affair thing, was this her first rodeo? He's like, well, there was that thing, you know, 5 years into our relationship. I always wondered about this guy who was our neighbor, and there was something goofy going on there, but I never had any proof of it. And then there was the co-worker that I caught her texting, and then It's usually just— it didn't just come out of nowhere. Every now and then, sure, somebody surprises you, but usually this is the tip of the iceberg of a bigger issue lurking under the surface. This, this infidelity thing, this women's cheating thing. Do you see much the same, or does this often come about from a completely awesome relationship?

I think that we are so undeveloped, a lot of us, when we get married. Like, we have no concept of like, why did you choose someone? Well, you met someone because he's cute. I'm excited. I'm excited about the person and the person. And this is— this is— this part's changing. But I remember a man saying to me like many years ago, he said we were sitting at a table, there were several of us, and someone asked if he wanted to get married because he was a single guy. And he goes, well, doesn't everybody? Like, I mean, you know, that was exactly the way it used to be. Hey, doesn't everybody? It's just what you do. So I want to get the, you know, like if I'm a man, I want to get the hottest girl I can get. If I'm a woman, I want to get the hottest guy I can get, or somebody that's the best provider, whatever, because people tend to go for money or looks, you know. I used to joke and say he can work at McDonald's as long as he's hot. That was when I was really young, okay? So it's always that those two things are what we're attracted to at the most superficial level. So when during our initial podcast, I said that there's a lack of seriousness when people get married. If you're getting married and you don't really know what to— what it is, you're not thinking about your life, life partner. You're thinking, I like being with this person. Oh, we had fun. Oh, he's cute. So that is what I think people need, uh, you know, to learn about is How— what— how to determine, do I want to be in a partnership like that? You know, how much time do I want to spend with someone? Because not everybody wants to live in the same house with someone. Someone can be absolutely faithful, but they don't want to live in the same house because they need a lot of time alone. Um, so to think that everyone wants to live with a member of the opposite sex in a hut is just not the way it goes, you know. So there's some little tweaks that you have to do to make the union right for you, you know. Now, in terms of people that have multiple relationships and things like that, and it may just be— I may have a very limited view, but to me that's just a, a person that needs a lot of, you know, like an extra, extra codependent person. So they need to have lots of relationships. They're building a family with their sexual relationships. I'm saying, so they're, they're not developed enough to have a one-on-one relationship with someone because, because it requires a certain level of development to, to invest that much. If I'm not very well developed, I can't invest that much into a relationship because I'll lose myself. So you have to have capacity to maintain a separate identity in order to be in a lifetime relationship with somebody. Otherwise, you lose yourself. And if you lose yourself, what happens is we are wired to be freestanding and independent. If you start to lose yourself in a relationship, that relationship will end because we're wired to outgrow dependency. Okay, so it's not just— this is just a dysfunctional relationship. It's supposed to— if you're dependent, it's supposed to be dysfunctional because you're supposed to grow out of it, you know. So, and that's the way that I view things. And it's just the problems that people have are directly related to their level of development.

If we're supposed to grow out of it, then is it a, um, is it safe to say that human beings, it would seem the evidence seems to show that we are wired for what you would call serial monogamy, pair bond with somebody, form a relationship, maybe make some babies or not, and then slowly but surely dissipate and do it all over again with somebody else and have a series of long-term relationships over our lifetime.

If we're functioning at the level of an animal—

Well, aren't we animals, Michelle? We're the human animal. We're part of the animal kingdom, just like the elephants and the dolphins.

That's part of us. Do you see what I mean? So there's more than that. So if we're functioning at the level of an animal, I think that's exactly what we're wired to do, which is why so many people do it. But, you know, and I don't know if this is going to make sense, but I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there because I think it's so important. That there— that our societies can be set up in a way to prevent our development. So I'm going to tell, you know, the people that are listening, watch Orion's latest episode with the, uh, the rise of the, uh, beta male. That's what you said, the rise of the beta male. Good memory. Uh, so the rise of the beta male. Okay, so he's explaining this. Now I want you to zoom out after I want you to watch it and consider, as he's talking about removing these alpha males, that that isn't just something that women are do— want and are doing. It's that something that society wants done. Okay, so society can give certain groups, certain sexes, more power in the system. And so many years ago, when I first read Gary Zukav's book Seed of the Soul, something stuck with me that he said. He said, uh, when you view power as external, meaning that you view some people that have it and some people that don't, like say the mother has the all the power or the father has all the power, if you're raised thinking that, it splits the psyche. So which means that— and I use this as a slang so that people will understand— it means that you'll remain a half-brain. You'll never be able to see the whole picture. You'll always be coming at your experiences from one side of the brain or the other. Just so imagine that the powers that be— whoever you think the powers that be are, you know— that it would be very beneficial for us not to develop, for us not to operate from an integrated mind system, you know. So it, uh, Gabor Maté— I don't know if you're familiar with him, but he's very— okay, so you are familiar with that. He says that the source of all addiction is, you know, this, uh, that something went wrong along the way. Margaret Paul says the source of all addiction is that these two mind systems aren't integrated. They aren't bonded together. So you can see that why we have so much addiction in our society, whether it's addiction to food, shopping, sex, love addictions. It's because the mind system isn't integrated and that there are probably powers that be that like it that way.

Mm-hmm.

So this pitting together Pinning men and women against each other. And I want men to be very aware of this. Instead of thinking about your anger at women, start thinking about who would want me to be so angry at women? Who would want my mind to not be integrated? The same thing with race too.

That's very conspiratorial of you. That's very masculine of you, Michelle.

Ah, my inner man's coming out. Well, it's actually just logical. You know, when Thomas Sowell said a long time ago, he said if we get rid of masculinity, which we've seen happening, this erosion of masculine— everything masculine is bad— he says what we're getting rid of is logic. So imagine that. So if you can keep everyone living in the moment, in our inner girl, Okay, our feminine, which is our emotional mind, which is our now system. What feels good now? Now, now, now. Can't see past my nose. Think about what a benefit that would be to whoever runs whatever, you know what I mean?

Well, if you listen carefully, you can hear all the feminists right now hammering away at their keyboard, because I mean, that is something that is, that is kind of an old trope of, uh, the the feminine, as they say, represent— is represented by chaos, by— in order and rationality is more the masculine. Say again?

It's not something that someone made up. Go read the book, or go buy the book, The Whole Brain Child, which is about raising children, which explains the two systems. They don't call it male and female, they call it chaos and order.

You know what I mean?

Like, rigidity. So it's not something that's made up. You know, so we have—

I had a question here.

Oh, I'm sorry, that would go back.

I don't want to lose this. This is Mr. Uh, Russell from YouTube says, hey Michelle, great book. I wonder if you could mention your background/childhood and how you developed such self-reflection. What made you do the work that you did? And I will piggyback on that, if I may. Why the women's infidelity thing, if you don't mind going into that a bit?

I will. So my first experience with just wanting to know, I remember, like, I'm going to go way back. I was 7 years old and there was a boy in school. All I remember is his name was Joe. And I remember going home one day and asking my mom, I said, and my aunt was there too. I said, I really like, I like this boy. Like, I, you know, I feel good when I'm around him. But whenever he talks to me, I don't want to be anywhere around him. Like, I hate him. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I had this opposite feeling and I wanted to understand it at 7. So I was like, what is that? And they just started laughing and thought that was cute. Well, as I, you know, matured, I was aware of this feeling, you know, and I can look at my second moment of being aware of it, you know, of not being interested in one particular male who was stunning. And, you know, like, I didn't understand what's this— why I should— he's, you know. And then, uh, when I wanted to get divorced, like, I was— I was married and I— things started to change, and they changed very quickly. So if you've read my book, you know that there was 3 things that happened, and I'm not going to go into those things, but there was 3 women that I found out that were cheating almost all at the same time. So it was like within a you know, I would say a 2-month period, 3-week period, it's very— and one of them was like, I mean, I thought I had earned such a pencil. This was like something she could never do. And remember, keep in mind, when you people that are listening, is I'm older. I was a, you know, I was raised women don't cheat. And I was raised in a household where that was my only rule, that you didn't have sex. So my mom— my dad died when I was younger, and so my mom, I could do whatever I wanted. So Naturally, I wasn't a rebellious kid because I could do whatever I wanted, just don't have sex. And I had a brother, so I was able to see how boys talked about girls and all that stuff. So it made sense. I've always been very rational-minded, you know, logic made sense. So anyway, then as I got older, I, uh, you know, when I was married and I went through this period where I didn't want to be married, and I married a man that he was a good man and he was gorgeous. I always say he looked like Brad Pitt, only taller. So yeah, there was no thinking I'm gonna get better or any of that type of thing, you know. And this was troubling to me. And so this feeling of just not wanting to be married, I just didn't want to. I can remember one day thinking, how did I ever even make that decision? Like, what? Because I was just like, you know, I just wanted to be free. It was just this feeling of, you know, like And it was as a woman goes into her prime, like 30 years old, you feel, you know, it's a very different feeling. And that's what I explained in my book is that if you're not prepared for that feeling, because I went from a, you know, I mean, literally looking at my husband like this every day, like, you know, there was nothing I wanted to do, just be with him. And to this, like, you know, like you just wanted to, you know, shake it like, hey, this feels confining. I want to do my own shit. You know, don't ask me what I'm doing. So that's what caused it. It was like wanting to understand it. And when I started asking women about it, it was obvious that the older women in my life knew exactly what I was talking about, but they just would not utter a word about it. And I've always been that, like, I'm going to say it, you know, like It's gotten a little bit better with age, but you know, like, it didn't bother me if it was shocking, if it was the truth. Like, I'm just gonna punch you in the face with the truth, you know, that's kind of the way that I was. So I remember being very angry about it. It's like, what's up with this? You know, why isn't anybody talking to it? And then when I went to see a psychologist and the psychologist didn't know, because now psychologists, they have women in their office office, this is very common. But back then, I mean, it was very— it took very little time for me to realize this woman doesn't know shit. No idea why I feel this way, you know. There was no insight coming to me, you know. And so anyway, that's what, that's what caused it. But there was a definite time where I was completely done with this subject. Like, it was like, oops, I've got my answers, I'm gonna move on. And I just kept getting pulled back into it. And I— it was a true commitment that I made. And, you know, you and I talked about that 3 levels of commitment or whatever. I did make a commitment. It's like, I'm gonna go to the bottom of this, I'm gonna share whatever I know, uh, because I feel that you have an obligation to— like, if you can help, you know, like, if I have this information, this will help you, I think we should pass it along. So anyway, it just kind of like stayed and stayed and stayed. And when the first book came out, people started sending me questions. I was like, yeah, I've got those answers. And I remember being bummed a little bit. I was like, fuck, I've got to write another book. And so anyway, that's how it happened. But yeah, I'm not fascinated by it anymore. As a matter of fact, one of your— someone from your podcast, you know, booked a session with me and, you know, and I told him, I said, I'm not in the place that you're in. Like he was wanting to get into all these nitty-gritties about, you know, women cheating and, you know, their, you know, about sperm and, you know, just like all of this scientific stuff. That's not— I am—

evolutionary solution.

So how do you break through this place that you're in? Because one of the things that you'll notice, and that some of the men in the manosphere, I believe, are caught up in, is you're obsessed with the problem. Okay, so if you're obsessed with the problem, that's not going to get you anywhere. You've got to start focusing on the solution. So there's a time where you go, I've got the information I need, and I'm just stalling and entertaining myself, because I don't know if people realize this, but seeking information gives you dopamine. So you can get a little— you can like regulate yourself with dopamine hits by Googling, you know, watching the YouTube things. And, uh, it can definitely take a hold of you. I've never been someone that scrolled on my phone, and I went through a period where I was like, how did this happen with me? I'm a person that leaves my phone at home, you know, I don't take it with me. It's, you know, So anyway, figure out what it is that you're trying to accomplish.

That's what— one of the things we've learned over the years is that a disproportionately large number of men in our community are neurodivergent, which is a way of saying either ADHD or autism spectrum. And you talk about the dopamine hit— those guys read every book, watch every YouTube video incessantly. And, uh, often when I I ask these guys before our chats— I do the one-on-one chats— and I say, uh, how'd you find me? Why is it we're talking? They'll be like, well, I was reading this book, which led me to this book, which led me to this other book, which led me to book a session, and that person mentioned you. So then I went and— Richard, you're like, oh my goodness, this person's a professional student.

And you're right, it's like, yeah, I was obsessed.

Same. I think we all go through some portion of that.

Yeah, you know, I don't know if you like— if you really enjoy writing, but It's like that would— that's my drug, you know.

It's this for me. So if I get on this high of writing a book, I'll just incessantly write a book to the point of it's unhealthy how much I'm spending a number of hours on it. Yeah. And then when I'm done with it, I'm like, I don't want to even look at a computer screen after that for a while. So I definitely have these highs and lows when it comes to that.

Yeah. Yes. It's tumultuous. I remember when I was dating and telling someone who I thought was a pain in the ass. And I said, I don't need this drama because I get drama from writing. Like, I was in a tumultuous relationship while I was writing, you know what I mean? So I understood what— this helped me understand men, the masculine, because, you know, younger— I mean, yeah, there's all kinds of drama when you're younger in relationships. If not in your own life, you're watching it with your female friends. So I remembered thinking, oh, this is the way men are. Men, they've got their job. It's like, I just want to come home to peace and quiet. I don't want all this bullshit when I get home, you know? And I thought, that's— I'm— I know what that's like now. Now, this stuff all came after 30, do you know what I mean? Like, because I'm starting to operate— because as a woman becomes— starts operating more from her masculine as she ages. So it was like understand it. Now I understand them more. And that's the thing, is that this situation with men, they can see that, oh, I can understand women more. This doesn't mean I put up with their shit. It just means, go, I go, oh, I get that. Yeah, I understand that, you know.

So we're in, we're in such a, uh, I guess, clash, tumultuous kind of— you use your term earlier, a clash of the sexes thing right now— that any kind of tiptoeing towards empathy of to the opposite sex and under— understanding things from their perspective, that is seen especially by your angry manosphere dudes as losing the battle. I don't, I don't want to— I'm tired of hearing her, especially when, like you alluded to earlier, a lot of our stuff is very female-focused and more feminine in nature. A lot of popular culture things and a lot of pop psychology and so forth is very much anti-male, anti-masculinity. So anytime it's somebody like you or me says Hey, try to see things from her perspective. The man's like, how about you go fuck yourself? I don't know, I'm tired of seeing things from her perspective. Enough of that.

You can understand that if his girlfriend's sleeping with one of his friends.

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah, she took half of his money. I mean, you can understand that because those men shouldn't be understanding. And one of the things I always tell men that are in the situation with what, you know, with what I'm dealing with do not ever be understanding. Understand, not understanding. I understand that you're getting laid and screwing other people. I understand.

Yeah, I always tell men, you know, trying to better understand what got you in the mess and how to get out of it is not excusing their behavior. It's not giving them a blank check to do whatever the hell it is they want. It's basically learning from the situation so you don't do it all over again. Because Michelle, I don't know if you realize this, these men that are cheated on, for example, they're cheated on by the next gal and the next gal and the next gal. It's because they tend to be attracted to a certain type. They have a certain type of behavior. Yeah, so if you don't learn from it, you're just going to keep doing this shit over and over again. So dude, you know, it's okay to understand and have a better, um, you know, breadth of knowledge, but then when we say that, these men go over the top and read 20 books and, and watch, you know, 100 YouTube videos and so forth, and they don't know when to stop. So then there comes the analysis paralysis. Eventually you have to put that knowledge to use and break free from these people.

But do you know how you— the easiest way for them to understand is to understand through experience. Go out, regardless of what you look like, and hit on someone that's 100 times less attractive than you and watch them kiss your ass and see how repulsed you are by it. And then you will know exactly why your girlfriend treated you like shit. It was because she wasn't as attracted to you. So this is one of the things I remember. I was out with a group of women, and one of them was a really attractive woman. She was an attractive blonde woman, and she was older. She was probably— and when I say older, I mean she wasn't her 20s, she was like 45 years old, okay? But she was an attractive 45. And there was a table of men next to us, and though— and one of the men came over. You could tell that these men wanted to, you know, they were interested in communicating with us. And the woman looked at him and just, you know, I just thought that it was a little bit— she was a little bit rude. And so I guess from the look on my face, she, you know, I had a disapproving look on my face, I guess, like, are you bitch? You know, whatever. And she said, look, she said, there's a table of old fat women sitting right next to them. Those men are old and fat. I don't want anything to do with them. They should go talk to those women because they're at their level. And so this is the thing men must realize, that modern women, that's the way they think, because they actually think more like men. Just, they're not the P. Diddy's girlfriend who's looking to get fame and money, so she's willing to get—

you know, I'm going back to that though, a viral clip.

But you know, she's not willing I'm willing to, you know what I mean? So yeah, that's the thing is that these men could know exactly how these women feel if they, if they allow their ego. The best thing you do is allow your ego to accept that not everybody's attracted to you, that I am seeking above my level in some way physically or in some way, and this is what's causing this, and I don't want to let go. I want to I want to get it. I want to see if I can close this deal. The significant partner is not a nice guy. He's actually— or a nice girl. They're actually someone that's trying to give to get. I'll just be really nice so that I can get this higher, you know, more attractive mate, you know. So the other thing that I will say is that when, you know, when people are getting advice, is the advice that we give people is, you know, you should do this or you should do that. What people actually need is they need scripted words, which that's one of the things that I do. I tell them exactly what to say. This is what you say, and then you shut up. Because the big thing is being able to shut up, and to be able to shut up takes self-control, which I'm obviously still working on because I just— I help men with, you know, is that developing that, you know, knowing what to say. Because when you think about getting advice, that it really— the advice isn't like that. So, dude, you should go, you know, go work out and go do this. No, he knows what needs to know, what to say to Sarah when Sarah's manipulating him, you know. He needs to know the exact words to shut that down.

I gotta tell you though, Michelle, Some of the men that I speak to are such— they're so anxious and they're so of the codependent streak, for lack of a better word, that if they were to go to the— you hate to use the numbers thing— like a woman who's like objectively like a 3 out of 10 on the attraction scale, if she starts treating him well, he's, he's going to fall in love with her and just wife her up immediately. Some of these men are— the first woman that makes goo goo eyes at him, he's just like, that's it, I'm done. Because they're so starved for affection, they're so starved for any kind of attention They've been in a really toxic relationship.

Really thinking an overweight, unattractive woman— one, the overweight, unattractive woman probably isn't going to be making goo goo eyes at him because she's got lower self-esteem than he does. Because for us to think— and this is what, when we're in that state, which, you know, I call it, whether you're male or female, a sad sack state. So when you're in that sad sack state, you know, You, you just, you're pathetic in that point. And so there are so many women out there who've never— are so starved for, you know, like they're not attractive. They are— they feel completely invisible. Now a lot of them now can go on TikTok and they can act ridiculous and get attention. And I don't know if you've ever seen some of those videos.

Sure, yeah.

But so they may be excited by that, you know, just going and just letting it all hang out. It's like it doesn't matter. But there are some women that they don't do anything but they get up and they go to work, and a man would never look at them, you know. So you can find someone, and you know, most everybody knows what it feels like to be in a relationship with someone or to have someone want you that you don't want them, you know, whether it's from a job or at school. Some girl with the glasses and braces is looking at you like that and you're like, oh, fuck, you know. So all— if you just understand that there's only two roles we can pay and play in the relationship, I'm either the one that's really wanting the person or I'm the one that's you know, in, in that level of relating. I'm not talking about a healthy relationship. I'm talking about at that level of relating, that primal initial level of aging attractiveness, relationship with uncertainty. It's because I'm in relationship with someone that I know isn't as attracted to me, and that's what's causing me to be so attracted. It's the re— it's the rejection anxiety. So I only— yeah, so I only have the rejection anxiety if I sense that you don't want me as much as I want you. And we all have this intuition. Intuition, we know it. We're always sending signals, you know, so we can feel it when it shifts. Most men know the minute that they're— that something happened with their wives. Like, oh, she came home from work one day and blah blah blah. Well, yeah, she met somebody at work that day. That's exactly when it happened, you know. So because you can feel the shift in energy when you start thinking of relationships of your interactions with people as energy, as opposed to the words, which you're actually— it's just energy. You feel those shifts. Women are naturally more in tune to energy shifts. Yeah, because men have become more passive, men are starting to become like that. Because your anxious man is basically a man that's real in tune to the—

hyperattuned to every little change. Yes, exactly.

Exactly. And so that can happen like to us as kids, you know, like if one of our parents, if we were like, you know, afraid, you know, we're dependent and then one of our parents, like we're dependent on our parent and they make us feel uncomfortable, like maybe, you know, you know, whatever it is like that we don't trust that they can provide for us or we don't trust that they're going to take care of us, you know, so it causes us to be hyper attuned to that person. So that's the only reason that a man is anxious is because for some reason he is connecting that woman with his survival. And this is what— this is truly what I love about working with men is that once men do get it, they're like bottle rockets, man. They just— it's like they get it, you know. And so they experience such rapid results because it like clicks with them and their, their logical masculine minds sees it, the cause and effect. They're seeing it. I want you to say this, say this. They see it happen and they go, oh my God. The problem is, is they start getting like this power trip of, oh, now I can control her. Men have to let go of the idea that you can control women. You can't. It's— control is an illusion, whether you're a woman or a man. Do you see what I mean? Like, controlling another person is an illusion. So, you know, I think that it may be David Deida, I'm not sure, he says it's like controlling a woman is like trying to control the ocean. You can't, you know, so let's stop trying. And those are the men that women flock to, the men that don't, you know, that don't need it. It's like, I don't need it, you know. But healthy people, healthy men and women, they don't operate it this way. They're done with that. And I think I had mentioned last podcast, I said that people eventually grow out of it. It's not necessarily that people grow out of it, they age out of it. You know, when you're 60 years old, you pretty much accept the bitch ain't coming to me anymore. You know, kind of like a rock star when he notices that, oh, the people in the crowd are 60 as opposed to 20. One day you're not going to get the women. It just isn't going to happen.

Michelle Langley, womensinfidelity.com. And guys, if you could, before we hang her up here, uh, if you could give me a like, if you could share this, I would appreciate it. Likes always help. It tells the Facebook and the YouTubes of the world that this is something worth seeing. So give it a like, give it a share, all that good stuff. A lot of comments here. Thank you all so very much, appreciate it. We have guys— such a guy thing— we have guys on here just giving running monologues as we're talking about their thoughts on what we're saying. It's like a little mini blog over here. Very good, guys. Um, guys just asking random questions. So hey, thanks so much, guys, for joining us today. And thank you, Miss Michelle, appreciate you. We need to do this again, always a pleasure. When are you going to start your own little YouTube channel or podcast is what I want to know.

I don't know, it's, you know, it's a commitment, you know. It's— you do this regularly, it's a commitment to do. And so I'm very much focused on quality You know, so I'm not a person that could just, uh, you know, I would want to talk about someone, something important and regular, and, you know, so I think it would just be very time-consuming. So it's something that I'm thinking about, but I don't know if I'm going to do it.

So step one, figure out the microphone thing.

There's more to that story, actually. So, uh, you told— you sent me a link to get a microphone from Amazon, so I ordered it. It never came. So I— yeah, it never came. So they sent me a thing, you know, like they said, oh, it's running late, it's doing this. And so it was kind of like lost in the Amazon thing. And so after like 10 or 12 days, they said, if you want, you can cancel it. And so I did, and I ordered one from somewhere else, from Home Depot. So anyway, but it is funny because it was like This should be so easy. You order it, it comes.

It was an omen of bad things to come.

Yeah, maybe it's a sign. Stay off the microphone.

We'll figure it out one of these days.

I'm very sorry, guys, about the microphone. I know that—

well, you're coming in loud and clear in my ears, so yeah. Thank you again for your time, really appreciate it. And thank you, thank you for what was probably be like, oh, I don't know, probably about 20 good clips that I got from this.

Just don't make it hard on me. There's a really bad one.

Hey, no, no, I don't know if you saw the ones that I posted earlier already from our last chat. They got a few hundred thousand, and so yeah, they did well.

So, oh yeah, we, uh, I didn't know the clips got, uh, views.

Oh yeah, oh yeah.

What was the highest?

Anytime, anytime I've had I have no— I had a clip that got to 4 million or so people. That was pretty big, the one I told you about where I did the experiment where I said— I don't know, did I tell you about this or not?

I can't remember.

I know I told you about the survey that I did, but I also did a video that went somewhat viral where I said, um, if your spouse came to you and said, um, there's something about the relationship I'm not happy with, or there's something about you that I find unattractive— and I made one video for men and one video for women— I said, how would you react to that? And the men responded with thanks for letting me know, I appreciate it. Overwhelmingly, like, I will do what I can to fix it because I don't want to lose my wife. While the women said, go fuck yourself. Basically, it was about like, like 80-some percent of the men said, okay, thanks for letting me know. And then like 90-some percent of the women said, go fuck yourself, I don't care, all men suck, yada yada. So I, I've done several versions of that video because people said it's not fair, you're talking about looks. Women are— oh man, women take looks very personally. Okay, well, let's flip it to attitude. Same result. Let's, let's flip it to just— let's flip it to, it's just something in general about you I don't like. Same result. So the end, the end result from that seemed to be that, uh, women seem to be a little bit more sensitive to the whole criticism about the relationship thing than the men do, and they don't take it as constructively, I guess you could say. And those videos got a lot of views, like millions and millions of people saw those.

So that's what brought a lot of people out with that, because that's an important lesson for women. You know, because when I'm talking to women, we have these hard conversations. So that, that really— when we say sensitive, that's a nice word. And when we go, oh yeah, I'm super sensitive, and that makes them feel like I'm a good person. No, it means you're immature. You can't handle criticism.

Averse to criticism.

Someone that I want as an employee, I would not want to do a project with you because you're like a child. So those types of things have to be pointed out. In a very tactful way so that women can go, you know, because I find that women really respond to the truth if you're not afraid to say it. See, you know, a lot of men, like, they tiptoe on it so the woman senses, oh, he's afraid. No, you're not afraid to say it. They know I'm not afraid to say it.

I'm like, hey, this is— I, uh, I wrote a book. I wrote a book, and I'm gonna put the thing up here. Most people know me from this book. I sold so many copies of it. Deadbedroomfix.com. All about sexless marriage stuff. And I talk about exactly what you just said there. And the pretend example I give in the book is— A man and woman are watching one of those Bachelorette shows where the woman gets to pick from all the women so that they can select their husband. So Bachelor? Yeah yeah! The man's got the menu of women in front of him and then the husband or wife were watching this on TV and the wife turns to her husband said which of those women would you pick? And the man was like uh... She says no be honest tell me which do you think it's prettiest?! And the guy goes, I don't know, I, I think the blonde because she looks like you. And he's like, you know, I dodged that one. And the woman's like, she looks nothing like me, she's 24 years old, I'm 57, what the hell are you talking about? I, I've never looked like that. And he's like, well, I like you the way you are. And she's like, what the fuck does that mean, like me the way I am? What the hell is that supposed to mean? He's like, oh God, never mind, forget I said anything. He's hiding from it, he's shirking from it. I'm— I don't want to piss her off. While the guy who's comfortable says, the brunette, I like the brunette, she's got that girl next door look that I like, she's pretty, I like her. Okay, cool, done. Not afraid of his sexuality, not afraid to be honest, not afraid to piss her off and tiptoe around her. But that was a section of the book that really hit a lot of men because they're like, yeah, that's how I am, I can't show her my true nature when it comes to what I find attractive and all other stuff. While with my wife and I, my wife would be like, no, I like the redhead, and she'd probably— no, I like the brunette. And, you know, it's not a big deal because that's just the— I guess the culture of our relationship. We're secure enough in each other to know that that's not a who-cares type of thing. But, um, yeah, you touched on something there that a lot of people experience.

Uh, like an animal, we attack when we smell fear. So the man who's tiptoeing, so the woman attacks him because she senses his fear. So that's why it's important to learn how to regulate yourself because that fear— because I always tell men, she smells it. I told the guy yesterday, I go, you're like rotten eggs. You walk in the house and you just stink, you know, of that desperation. You know what I mean? So anyway, I know that we've been going on.

No, no. And somebody asked one here, Miguel from YouTube asked, where can we find her books? Miguel, look at the screen right there, buddy. Women's Infidelity .com, womensinfidelity.com. You can buy one or both of her books, Women's Infidelity 1 and Women's Infidelity 2, available ebook format, like what, PDF or something that you can download?

I don't have the paper books, paperbacks right now because I'm working on another book and I don't know how we're going to market the third book.

Do you want to give us a— do you want to give us a preview of what that one's going to be about?

Or— well, if you— for people that are familiar with my books, my books are in conversation with form The first book explains from a woman's perspective to a man exactly why we're seeing what's happening today, why women are cheating so much. Takes him through that process. The second book is a book that men need to read simply because of Chapter 2, because it's important information that, that men need. But anyway, it's talking to a woman, so you're going inside a woman's mind while she's cheating. And how she's actually really processing this. Men need to understand, like, what she's really thinking. It isn't quite as lovely as you might think. And then this next book will be— it'll, like, it's coming full circle, so it'll be back to talking to a man, and it's going to show— it's going to talk about this passive thing and how men have become more feminine and, and how the behavior that they're doing is making the problem, you know, worse. But the reason that they're doing it, there's like the— this not trying type thing, you know, and just there's some really serious stuff with what's happened to men and how— because I believe that we are wired that once we sense that, you know, that we're not gonna— like, if you're attracted, like, if you sense that you're not attractive, look in the mirror, I'm not attractive, that you just simply don't try, you know what I mean? Like, and so I think that by making men think that, oh, women are a little bit at an advantage, it just caused men to not try. First they tried to compensate by, oh, I'll just, you know, kind of be nice, watch it, you know, but then they just gave up. And so that's what I think is what we're seeing now. Is that— and again, you would think that, you know, I benefit from it, but I don't. Orion's Pod, that, that episode explains this, this rise of the beta male. It's really— it's just an important thing for men to read, and it's a quick one. I like things that are to the point. It's like, give me my info, you know, and this particular episode does that. And how important it is to get men not to try. Because as he says in this episode, women cannot compete with men. They cannot compete with men head to head. And that's one of the things that I tell women too, is that he's gonna be— because men— women will say to me, oh, he's so clueless, he's so dumb, he's, you know, talking about their husband. And I say, really? So you think the the gender that sent someone to the moon, or at least built the thing that sent something to the moon? Like, if you don't believe we went to the moon, but do you think the gender that went to the moon, they're dumb? You think that gender— you were baking bread, you know, making dresses, and they built a rocket to go to another planet. It would have never occurred to us, and I hate to say that, but it's just true. It just— it's something that— this doesn't mean that women now don't want to work. You know, it's like, hey, I want to be an astronaut, I want to do this, I want to do that. But men, they set it up. They're the ones that had the idea, let's go to the moon. I guarantee you I would not have ever— I don't care how much thinking I do, how much I love to analyze, I'm not going to be thinking about leaving the planet, building a rocket to leave the planet. So anyway, and women will often start laughing. So I'm sure that if you make this a clip, people— I'm gonna have so much hate coming my way, you know.

Sure, sure.

But when I'm talking to women, they, they're like, yeah, You know, they get it. So anyway, yeah.

All right, Miss Michelle Langley, thank you so very much. Appreciate your time once again. And guys, go check her out at womensinfidelity.com. Check out her books, book time with Miss Michelle, and, uh, uh, take advantage of her expertise in this matter. You've been doing this for a couple of decades now, right?

Yeah, a long time.

I've been doing a long time. And you've seen the people—

is— I mean, it's great working people really do. That's why you want to make sure you don't get angry at the opposite sex, because once people break through that, you know, that fight, whether they're male or female, I mean, they're just— it's just, it's like something lifts for them and they can begin to enjoy the opposite sex again.

So guys, go check it out, womensinfidelity.com. Michelle, thank you again.

Thank you.

I'll see you on the next one. All right guys, thank you all so very much. We'll see you on the next one, guys. Bye-bye.

Bye.