DSO and @drpsychmom - Live!

Thinking, thinking. All right, now it says we're live. So let me wander over to Facebook and do a little refresh here to make sure we are good to go. Good. Skitty bop-a-doo. Yay, we're live! Hello world.

Oh, hello world.

Hello.

Hold on, let me look up. So I move you up to the top. All right, good. Now I can see you.

How is Miss Sam today?

I'm good. How are you?

Good, good. You working hard today?

Yeah, I thought that I had this other meeting and then it got canceled. So I was like, now's our moment because we had to cancel last time. So I figured I'd ask you.

These rare moments. And you're doing like 8 clients, patients, whatever you want to call them, every single day on average.

Not every single day, but yes, on the days that I do. Like, I try to do it so that I have some, like, Fridays off to do, like, my other stuff, or some Mondays, but it doesn't work with the kids' stuff. Like, if they have— it's just a terrible— it's a lot of people, but it's not as much as I used to have in COVID. That was like 40 because it was like everybody— I mean, I hadn't hired anybody yet. Yeah, so now I've hired—

strain on you.

Yeah.

Very cool. You know, I was about to ask you a question, but this is kind of personal. What does the hubby do for a living?

Well, he does, you know, of course, a lot of my backend stuff. He also works at a think tank. Yeah. So he works, like, he has like a right, his day job. And then of course he does all of the, not, he does a lot of the backend stuff with my practice, Best Life, and a lot of my stuff. And then we also have a real estate business and he's like, front on that.

So look at you, how cool! Dynamic duo, that's awesome. Yeah, my wife isn't really involved much in my stuff. She's been on the podcast and stuff before, but her work is so much— like, she's on call today, she'll be gone like majority of the day today doing surgeries and stuff. So, uh, we're very split professionally in that way. So, you know, I need to bring up the comments here, make sure we're not missing something. I don't see anything just yet. But welcome everyone.

Make sure everybody, we can answer questions.

Yes, so just to make sure, if somebody has stumbled upon this and it's like, who the hell are these people? Why are they chatting live and who the hell cares? My name is Ralph Brewer Brewer. I go by the fake internet name of DSO, which stands for Dad Starting Over. You can learn more at dadstartingover.com or search for Dad Starting Over on all the social media channels. I'm out there everywhere. And my lovely and talented cohort today is Miss or Dr. Samantha Rodman-Whiten. Take it away.

Yes, Dr. Psych Mom. You guys could see me at drpsychmom.com or the Dr. Psych Mom Show on everywhere you listen to podcasts— Apple, Spotify, whatever. And of course, I'm also a clinical psychologist in private practice. So if you guys need therapy or coaching virtually, there's me and there's like 10 other people working for me, and you can always reach out. To me on my page, my Facebook page, or anywhere, Dr. Psych Mom.

Very cool. And, and social media-wise, our, our stuff, our content intersects a great deal because we talk about all things in the world of relationships. And I do so from a— I do so from a male perspective. Yep. And you do so from a therapist's perspective and your own personal perspective as a twice-married lady. Is that right? Yeah, this is marriage number 2 for you. Same for me, twice-married myself. Um, and you got 4 kiddos, is that right?

Well, 3 of mine, yes, and he had one.

Okay.

As well.

And I have, uh, and I have 4 of my own as well. So we have a lot of intersecting there and we're roughly the same age. I got a few years on you. I'm 48 years of age and you're people.

You got 6 years on me.

All right, I said few.

Few is 3.

All right, and, uh, what else? What else to cover here before we have any other questions?

We could just randomly pick topics to talk about. I could tell you stuff that goes on in my Facebook group. So we had, um, a guy that asked for a blowjob and for his birthday And not on the Facebook group.

Like, he wasn't asking on the Facebook group, like, who wants to blow me? And okay, good, okay, good.

No, no. Okay, that went into a topic, and she didn't. And then we went into the topic of, like, are you— like, people that ask for certain gifts versus people that just want you to get whatever you want, basically people who would never ask for a gift, which I call, like, you know, there's, like, wishlist people and not wishlist people. Like, there's all these people that have, like, big wishlists, and then the person just gets them something from the wishlist, and sometimes, like, a blowjob is on the wishlist, and then, like, they're supposed to get that. And then there's people who think that that's, like, super not romantic— I would be in that camp— and, um, not— or not wishlist people. But what about you, Ralph? Are you a wishlist or not a wishlist person?

Um, wife and I are definitely wishlist people.

Um, you know, you have a list of stuff.

Yeah, well, no, not like a consistent— hey, it's not like a consistent, like, you know my list, it's a year-round— let— no, it's like come Christmas time or birthday time. Um, we have gotten to the point— I guess we always kind of have been— of like, you know what I like, there's this thing I've always talked about, blah blah blah, if you could get that for me, that'd be awesome. But usually on top of like, what's an example Example would be like, she wanted the little in-ear headphones for workout thing, like the AirPods or Beats or something like that. So I got her those. And then, but you're right, it kind of takes like, hey, that thing that was on my list, I like clicked it and bought it for you. Here you go. That's not the most romantic thing in the world.

AirPods, she could buy herself AirPods.

Exactly.

But like, I don't—

but on top of that, there's always some kind of like but here's the little special thing that you didn't ask about. So I like things to do. So on top of things I got for her that she had on a list at some point, I also then planned a spa day. So we went away to the spa and had the couples massage thing and she had the facial thing and blah, blah, blah. And then we went to dinners.

And that made her cry.

Yes, she didn't ask for that, didn't see it coming. And I put a little flyer together with like, this is our day out and here's what it entails. And she loves that kind of stuff. So I did that. It's not fully just like, here's the shit you told me to buy you. It is weird, I'll be honest with you.

I don't like, here's the shit I told you to buy. But I get why people are like that. And you know what, more avoidant people are more like that because it takes the vulnerability out of it to just be like, here's my list. Okay, you got me stuff off my list. But it's also how you grew up. Some kids were supposed to write a Christmas list and then they got stuff off the Christmas list. Then if they're used to it, then they translate that into their adult relationship. Relationship. But I get it with a kid because they don't have any money. They have no way to get it if you don't get it. Whereas if you're an adult, unless you are on a very tight budget, then you just buy, you know. Like, to me, I'm a highly sensitive person. I like, I like romantic stuff. I wouldn't want somebody to buy something off a list. I wouldn't even want to make a list.

But then, but then what's the alternative? I have to really pay attention year-round, find little opportunities for things that make me go, oh, I bet she would really like that, and make a note of it and so forth. When you're caught up in the machine of the relationship and kids and everything else, you just— you miss those little moments very easily. And then, no, you know, it's November 30th and you're like, shit, I completely dropped the ball all year long. What are some things she's been talking about? What are some things I know? Well, she already bought herself that thing. She already bought herself— what does that— where does that leave me? And that the pressure is taken away when you're like, oh, the list. Okay, that she didn't buy herself those shoes for work.

Yeah, I know, I know. I just feel like it wouldn't be like that. And then some people are bad gift receivers too. That's the thing, is like somebody gonna get them something and then they're like, oh no, I don't like that. It's like, who cares, you know? Like, they got it for you, you know? Like, try— they tried. So you wouldn't say it to your kid. You wouldn't be like, well, that you made out of popsicles, that just belongs in the trash, you know? Like, you wouldn't say that to your child, so why would you say it? It looks like that.

I always thought it was weird when people are like, I don't like getting gifts. I'm like, really? It's the, you know, I don't like the whole, you know, trying to hide my disappointment when the people give me something I really didn't like. And you're right, I'm like, it's the thing that they went out of their way to make you or to buy for you or whatever. You just say, oh, thank you so much, I appreciate it.

This is something bad about the relationship. Like, every time, if somebody always gets literally like the opposite, like, you know, like the woman is like allergic to chocolate and he buys her chocolates every year, that obviously speaks to something very bad about the relationship. We are not talking about the gift being bad. It's not a gift situation. We are talking about there is a massive misattunement in the relationship. So from my perspective, obviously as a therapist, like a cigar is never just a cigar, you know, like we want to talk— like if people are consistently misattuned with their gifts, that would obviously speak to a larger misattunement in the relationship. Obviously. But like, you know, people don't like to think of that. That makes them feel very uncomfortable. So instead they're like, oh, he's just a bad gift giver. Oh, he's just bad in bed. Oh, he just isn't funny. Oh, I don't think he's really smart. And I'm like, we put all this shit together.

That guy sounds amazing.

Yeah, it's—

but, but you're pointing to— there's a— and I did a little video on this— there's like this, this grand, um, nebulous thing of the relationship, and it must be maintained at all costs. And you hear some of these stories like where you're just sitting there going, you're not attracted, you're not attracted to her. You know, the things I often hear— you're not attracted to her? No, man, she gained like 100 pounds. Okay, what else? She's lazy as shit, man. She doesn't do anything. I have to do all the housework and blah blah. Okay, what else? She hasn't, she hasn't bathed. She hasn't bathed in a month. I'm like, Jesus Christ, is she okay? Is she depressed? Yeah, probably. And blah blah, but she refuses help. And he just goes on and on on. You're like, what, what are you doing, dude? And it's like, well, you know, I made my vows. Okay. And it's— there's just this grand thing of the relationship and it must be maintained at all costs. Or I don't like her, she does this, the gifts suck, she sucks in bed, or vice versa. It's just like, okay, it's just odd to me. Yeah.

I mean, people are— it's also like inertia, like the idea that like this is, you know, better the devil you know. You know, and that it just would be so difficult afterwards, or to separate, or whatever. And the worst, the saddest one, is when the kids are out of the house. I get a lot of people staying together, they're unhappy, they don't even have kids in the house. So that is for sure like, uh, not the best choice from my perspective. Live the rest of your one life that you get in misery because the adult children might have to split up holidays? They're living their own life, you know.

Hey, perfect segue into the first question here, which came from Enoch. What a cool name.

I know Enoch Legger, whatever.

Enoch Legger, whatever. He says, for us both, what did you do or looked for differently between your former partner and your current partner in order to have a successful second marriage? And what did you learn from your divorce? Well, that's a— woof, that's a big question. Shall I go first?

Oh, sure.

There were definitely, you know—

Ralph, am I supposed to see comments here, or do only you get to see comments?

I see it. You should see a separate window just for comments. Do you know?

I don't, but oh well, continue. Tell Enoch about your life.

Insert old lady technology joke here.

Anyways, so I can take a picture of that for you. There's no comment.

No, that's okay.

Whatever it says.

That's it. Sorry. Anywho, so Enoch says, uh, so what do we learn? And, um, not to throw my ex-spouse under the bus, I'm not trying to belittle her or make her look bad in any way, shape, or form or whatever. We were just fundamentally mismatched in a lot of different ways. It just took a while to figure that out. But, um, what did I learn was that I guess you, you kind of look at it very pragmatically. What do I not like in that previous relationship? Boom, boom, boom. Well, I'm not gonna— am I gonna put up with that shit again? No, no, yeah, maybe, no. And yeah, you look at the second partner and you go, you know, I'll be damned. It's funny when, um, for a lot of us guys who are fresh out of a divorce, especially when they end the way mine did and all that stuff, you, you do find yourself going, goddamn it, I'm, I'm with my ex-spouse all over again. I'll be damned, this one is exactly like her. How did I end up here? All right, back to the drawing board. And then that's a good way to learn, you know, you do that a few times And then eventually you say, I know what I want and don't want in the new partner. And for me, it was probably, it's funny, my ex was very much type A professional, probably to use the vernacular, very masculine energy in a lot of ways, controlling and everything else. And I wanted somebody more feminine, bubbly, attractive in that way, yin to my yang kind of thing. Don't want to be always butting heads and fighting and controlling the situation. And who did I end up with was a surgeon. But, but her personality type is very feminine, very bubbly, the cute in that way, not as controlling and everything else. So that was very, very attractive to me. I don't know. Say again?

Is it her first marriage?

I am her second.

Her set. So it's both of your second?

Yes, correct. And how about for you?

I just— well, I mean, again, I'm not, you know, I don't go too in detail about anything with my ex, but my husband is a better fit in many ways that I've verbalized on when I've talked about compatibility and second marriages and what people look for. And specifically, I've talked about like when people go for a highly sensitive when you're a highly sensitive person, which just— it's like a trait, it's whatever, it just means somebody who's more just, let's say, romantic or something. Then, but if anybody's interested, they can of course look up highly sensitive people. It's like a thing. It's so much easier to go for somebody that's that same way, you know, like versus somebody who finds that to be like hard, you know, like who finds it to be difficult to think. Like, you know, the guy in your, uh, thought experiment when we were talking about the wish list who would say that it gets to November 30th and they're like, oh shit, what's some stuff that she mentioned? Like, I wouldn't need to think like that, you know, nor would my husband. It would just be kind of obvious, you know. Like, my husband makes like a playlist of songs, you know. He makes me a card for every dating anniversary and every wedding anniversary every month. He's like super verbal. That's his job is like, you know, being very verbal and writing and all of that for his job. So it's just easier to be with somebody who's not the yin to your yang. A lot of people when they're young, they pick the yin to their yang. And I see all those yins and yangs in my office, and it like, it doesn't work out as much as people wish. Like, the opposites attract thing does not really work out as much as, you know, movies would have you believe. Really, in the second marriage, people go for somebody who's kind of like them, you know, in real basic ways. So like, they speak the same language. It's so hard to be like 'it's important to spend time together, it's important to do romantic things' to somebody who doesn't really think that, you know, through no— like, that they have no need. You know, it's the same as for men when they find like a higher— not even a higher libido, because obviously that can go down— but like, men talk about it much more with a physical touch love language. Like, when they found a second wife who has a physical touch love language versus somebody who, you know, Right, so like, that's like, it's, it's somebody that you wouldn't have to say why you would want to cuddle. Like, you wouldn't have to say like, here are 3 bullet points I have presented on why cuddling is important in relationships with studies that I've gleaned from the internet, as of course many preoccupied attachment men present that document, you know. You wouldn't have to say that because it's like obvious, you know. And now I've just started to see comments magically from Nick. Hi, Nick! Hi Nick. I know Nick. But anyway, that is, uh, that is what I have to say about it. If somebody has your same, like, love language, whether it's like words of affirmation or whether it's like romance or whether it's touch, it's like super easier, you know. It's just there's not that, you know, like knocking your head into the wall all the time to explain shit that you think is like the definitive reason that you're married and they don't.

You know, the vernacular is we're just more compatible in a lot of different ways, and you got to decide what ways are most important to you. And in marriage number one, again, not to throw under the bus too much, but I was routinely made to feel like kind of a weirdo for wanting to touch a lot. And, uh, like, just like Jesus. And I remember even a comment by my ex quite often was, I don't think you were cuddled enough as a kid or something. It's like, why? You know, just because, you know, you want to spoon on the couch and watch TV or something like that. While, uh, it's funny, we did, uh, my, uh, wife, now wife, and I did the old Love Language thing some time ago, and it both came up as number 1 was touch. So that's important to us. That's how we communicate that I like you and you like me is the touching thing. And so I'm not made to feel like a weirdo. And you're right, that's a giant weight off your shoulders not to be constantly feel like Yeah, maybe there is something a little wrong with me. Maybe, and especially maybe even as a man, to be kind of emasculated of, that's kind of needy of you to always be wanting to touch you. What kind of man is always touchy touchy? Maybe you're right, maybe I'm a bit of an effeminate man in that way. And but no, when you find somebody that's like, yes, please touch me more.

Yeah, it's like women feel the same thing for romance. So like they say, oh, like you should want date nights. And then guys like, like, do you think people like do stuff like that outside of like those rom-coms that you watch. Like, people don't really do that kind of thing. And the woman then feels very, you know, condescended to and very much like, well, maybe I guess that isn't something, you know, and blah blah blah blah. The same, you know, it's just the same equivalent. And nobody's like— when you're young, you don't really even know about compatibility. If you find like a good-looking person that looks right on paper, it's like game over, you know, for just people in their 20s. People in their 20s are very young. You know?

Yes.

Like, you don't realize it until you're twice that age, and then you're like, man, I was a child when I decided to get married, you know? Like, that's how many people feel. And I think it is— it is unusual for people to, like, uh, even think about compatibility when they're in their 20s. Like, you just— it's just like, I'm attracted to that person, we get along, that's it, you know? It's— and but of course we have these big problems, but I'll fuck that, you know? I'm sure it'll work out. And then it just doesn't work out, you know.

Greg asks a question. Greg from Facebook says, will you please talk about the psychology behind pressuring your spouse about your dead bedroom versus ignoring the subject completely, considering this approach seems like a recipe for disaster, since problems can't be solved unless they're talked about and kept in the mind of the impacted couple. So pressuring your spouse versus ignoring it. I think what you're trying to say, Greg, is You obviously have to pressure. That's the only way to resolve this situation. Pressure, I think, is a strong word. You know, to hold a gun to your spouse's head saying, don't you realize what you're doing here by not providing me with my physical?

Those are not the only two options. It isn't like pressuring versus ignoring. It's not like those are— that would be like being like aggressive versus passive where the middle point is assertive. Like you want to bring up that there's an issue. And if it constantly gets bad when you bring it up, then bring your wife. It took a couple of counseling. This— all these guys are like— it's funny, all these guys— it used to be all these women say that my husband won't go to counseling. Like, that was like what I dealt with basically until you and I collabed. And then all of these people came over and they were like, oh, my wife won't go to counseling. I'm like, okay, so I guess it's the same thing, which is like, yes, they will. You're just not literally telling them they have to. You're not saying, I, I scheduled this thing like at 8 o'clock. If somebody wants stay married, there are only so many things that they could say no to. But before that, you can start, you know, to make it clear that it is not acceptable for you to live like that anymore without pressuring, you know, or not saying anything. Like, those are like— we, we don't have to do either extreme.

It's, uh, it's a, it's a difficult subject. It's one that I talk about all the time on here, much to the chagrin of some followers. They say we talk about it too much, but well, it's, it's the topic that gets the needle moving more than anything else— sex, sex and marriage, lack thereof. But Greg is saying not pressure necessarily. He's saying like talking, but then hearing your wife reply back with, quit talking about it, dude. And she claims it'll get better if you quit focusing on it so much. This is important. And she's very averse to counseling. Well, this sounds like— you tell me, Samantha, after only reading a few sentences here— this sounds like your boilerplate Mr. Anxious chasing after Miss Avoidant, and Miss Avoidant is saying, uh, can we just stop talking about this dude all the freaking time? For God's sakes, maybe if you backed off a little bit, things would improve. And no, I don't want to go to counseling. No, I don't want to listen to that podcast. No, I don't want to read the book. This is like avoidant one-on-one. And the way I've kind of, um, interpret all this, it kind of exists on a spectrum. Some people are a little avoidant, and yes, if you back off, they blossom and come more to center and become more secure. And you're like, well, there's my feminine sweet wife. All I had to do was not hang on her 24/7, and now she can breathe. While some are like so far into the extreme that if you finally back off, they just take off and they go. They're like, oh, thank God you're gone. I've been waiting for you to get off my back. Now I can leave the situation. Some literally leave, and much to the chagrin of the anxious guy who's like, see, I knew it. As soon as I stopped pursuing, this person leaves me. Now there's no hope for me in relationships. So you're saying, Greg, what do I do if I bring, you know, talk to her and say, honey, you know, it's important that couples are physically intimate. And she's like, God, stop freaking talking about this all the time, for God's sakes. Well, maybe we should go talk to somebody about it. God, I don't want to talk to anybody about this. Well, there's the school of thought of backing off, working on yourself, becoming a more grounded, emotionally centered, secure individual may cause her to come more to center. Have you tried that, Greg? Or do you have the patience to try that, to back off? If you say, yeah, I've been there, done that, dude, it doesn't do anything. I'm the type that when you back off, we could go a year with nothing. Well then, sounds like you got a fundamental problem and maybe ultimatum of we need, have to talk to somebody about this. There's no ifs, ands, or buts. If you want to continue being my wife, Monday, 8 o'clock, we go talk to Samantha. Or whoever it may be. It's not a question, it's a yes, we're going to do this way.

And also, it's like, what does sex represent here, you know? I mean, there's probably not a lot of love that is shown. If there are children around, they're seeing a disconnected marriage where dad is like mooning over mom and mom is like swatting him away. And often that is the tremendous motivator for women to work on something, and they haven't even really thought about it because it's not an abusive marriage. Like maybe they saw. It's not a marriage where the guy's running around cheating. Everybody's involved, you know, but they've never really thought, oh my God, if my kids are watching this, they're going to end up in disconnected, unhappy marriages as well. And because biologically, as I've made very clear, that women's priority is the children and should be, and that's just kind of how it is, then that is frequently what gets them in more than anything. Like shit. Like, we are showing the kids a really shitty environment, and if I visited them in 20 years and I saw them in a disconnected marriage, I would feel kind of deeply ashamed, you know?

And that makes perfect sense, and what you just said is very scientific in nature, but I'll tell you what that really does is it kicks Mr. Anxious in the balls a little bit more because he's saying the only way to move the needle, phrase I often use, in this relationship more towards what I like is to threaten the woman. You're about to lose your family, woman. You're about to lose time with your kids. You're showing your kids what a bad relationship looks like.

Well, yeah, I'm not saying that to threaten with the divorce first. I'm saying— you're welcome, Greg. I'm saying to bring it up in a different way that could potentially resonate with her just as I would say to men. So like, some women, like, I advise them to try to have more sex and physical touch with their husband. So they might say the same thing as the man does— oh, I gotta bring it up through the lens of kids, oh, I gotta bring it up through the lens of sex, you know. But yeah, you gotta bring things up through the lens that resonates with your audience, and you have to empathize with your audience and say, what do they perceive as important? Because they're not the same person as me. So his wife may do something on behalf of the children that she wouldn't do otherwise, and that doesn't mean she's a bad person. I mean, she's a good mom, you know. And so that could be a very easy reframe. Just like it doesn't mean that your husband is a sex addict if you should touch him more. It means that he's like a normal guy that likes touch, you know. And so, yeah, right.

What makes this doubly difficult is, uh, Mr. Anxious, for example— and I apologize, I've been, by the way, recently criticized a little bit for, man, you sure do pick on anxious guys a lot. And the guy will say, I'm anxious and I really don't like watching a bunch of material saying, let me show you what Mr. Anxious does. Well, that's just who I tend to attract to my material and who I talk to a lot, and they got work to do. And I'm not trying to belittle them, I'm trying to show these guys that you have power, and the power is working on yourself and trying to come to terms with your anxieties and your, your anxious attachment and all that goes with it. And there are things you can do to get better. And one of the things that is often, um, oh, deeply embedded in a lot of anxious guys when it comes to the sex thing is, um, the more work— this very anxious mindset— the more work I do towards improving this relationship shines a light on something. And the light— what is being uncovered here is that Holy shit, my wife really doesn't have that kind of feelings towards me that I, Mr. Anxious, would like to say she does. So I would love to think that deeply embedded in there somewhere is this lustful wife really, really wants me in that way, the same way I want her. And the more I teeter, the more the scales tip towards the only way to get a reaction out of this woman is to say Do you want to be a good mom? Yes or no? Do you want to keep this family going? Yes or no? Do you want to be a good model for what your kids— What a lot of these anxious men are hoping is that all I have to do is say, look at me, aren't I a great husband? And then she should jump to attention and say, damn right, I got a good husband. In fact, any woman would kill to have a guy like this. Let's get to it. Let's work on this marriage.

Yeah, man, I got a bridge to sell you too, you know?

Well, that's it. But that's terrible for a lot of guys. Their head and going, fuck, what am I doing? The only way to get a rise out of this woman is to, in essence, threaten her with the ending of a relationship. I know you're saying, well, we're not going there yet, but that's in essence that we're building a bridge towards that. We're inching close to an ultimatum, which is, do you want this family unit to maintain? Do you want to keep the life that you're used to, wife? Do you want to have healthy kids that build healthy relationships? If so, we're gonna have to work on coming closer together. And what a lot of these anxious men hope is just that they alone saying, aren't I a great husband, a loving husband, a sweet husband, a caring husband?

Isn't that enough? Right. That's just as naive as when women are like, but if I bake him enough cookies, doesn't that make up for a sexless marriage? He should really love my cookies. I'm trying so hard to make this a nice home, and I'm a wonderful mother, and that should be enough. You know, and it's just fiction, you know. So like him expecting that some sort of base animal drive is going to motivate her is as fictional as her hoping that some desire for an orderly home is going to motivate him. It's just antithetical to reality. And so people who are in that stage, if they work on themselves, they could figure out why they cling to these idealized, romanticized views of reality that have nothing to do with how life actually works, you know. And frequently they do it in all sorts of regards.

It has nothing to do with how life works when in a 20-plus year marriage to a woman that you have 4 kids with, etc., etc. These are all things that put a big heavy blanket on top of that new relationship energy honeymoon stage lustfulness that a lot of us lucky bastards— well, that's, that's what makes it so goddamn difficult, is that for a lot of guys it's like like, man, I'm telling you, you know, if I were to split this relationship into stages, stage 1 was magical, and that's what got me hooked. That's what got me to sign over this, that, make a commitment to the woman, put a ring on her, give her 3 kids, because Mother Nature basically said, look what you got, isn't this great? And I was like, he's damn right, Mother Nature, let's do this. And then something flipped, and I'm like, I don't, I don't like this post-flip And what I'm hearing from a lot of people, a lot of these men say, what I'm hearing from everybody is, tough dude, suck it up, grow up for God's sakes. This is, not everybody stays the same. Okay, and they hang their head and they, yes dear, whatever you say dear, and you know, become the typical schlub of a guy that we all know and love. So it's very difficult and basically we're telling these guys, this is a new chapter and you have your work cut out for you. If you want to get from A to Z, the path there is a lot different, and it's a lot arguably more difficult than what it used to be. Used to be, you just walk into the room and say, hey honey, here I am, and you guys were going at it like rabbits. It ain't the same anymore, in case you didn't notice, dude. So if you want to get a little intimacy between the two of you, the game plan's got to change, expectations got to change. You got to be more realistic, and that especially for your anxious guys, and I'm learning especially for those guys um, neurodivergent types, that's very tough to come to terms with. They're very hypersensitive to that, very hypersensitive to rejection and other things. So it's doubly hard for them.

Yeah. And I gave you over a link. I don't have the ability to do this, Greg, but there's a whole link of an article that Dad Starting Over can link back to you in the chats, maybe, because I gave it to him privately. It's called 6 Ways for Guys to Work on Preoccupied Attachment. So Greg, that's where I think you should start, my friend, because he literally asked for that.

Let me go to, um, chat here.

Yeah, the other way, by the way, the other way for it to go is that— thank you. Um, that's what you should look at, Greg. Um, but the other way for this to go is like there are confident, healthy men that are like, oh, we're done with the honeymoon stage. That makes sense. Like The relationship is just one part of my life after all, not the entire life. And now's a time as well for me to focus on building my career, building my wealth, building my relationship with my children, building my relationships with other men, figuring out my purpose on this planet. Maybe if I'm a religious guy, I focus on that. Like there's like all manner of things to do, you know, as well. Like what happens when the preoccupied attachment man or woman feels that the relationship is like it, like it's like the whole ball of wax and everything else is like in the background. And that is just not a healthy way to think. There's like a pie chart, and if your relationship is that whole circle, then it gets really messed up, you know.

Here's what, uh, you're preaching to the choir. That's why I tell a lot of guys is that you've put the— the phrase I often use is you've thrown the entirety, all of your mental health eggs into one basket, and that is wife. You've put all the pressure, and that's a lot of weight on her shoulders. And a lot of these women fully realize that. My guy, his— the entirety of his, uh, emotional health, his day-to-day, uh, attitude and everything completely rests on me, his wife. And Jesus, that's freaking exhausting. But on top of all that, and we're going back to the old SEX, um, we cannot Oh, uh, what's the word? I cannot overemphasize the male libido. Not for every man. There are some men that I know, they're like, sex isn't that important. Well, they're in the minority. For a lot of men, it is front and center, and it is always front and center up until their 50s, 60s, and some beyond. Of this is a driving force in my life, period. And all you have to look at is the world of sex workers and pornography and everything else that preys upon that. And that is something that we have to come to terms with, contend with, and take that energy and refocus it elsewhere, especially if we're in a long-term monogamous relationship. So to hear from a woman, hey, just don't worry so much about it— easier said than done.

Women that are not in these situations where they pursue our help are in situations where they are having sex a couple times a week, you know, and she does love them. And it may not look like something out of a porno, but it is not shitty. It has kissing, it has touching, it's a close connection between two people that love each other, and it doesn't never happen, you know. So like, the thing is, is it's like chicken and egg. There's some situations where I think that we should always base on like, what does a secure relationship look like? That still goes through the honeymoon stage, and the honeymoon stage ends. In a securely attached loving relationship, as I'm sure in yours and certainly in mine. You know, it doesn't— it's not— I don't feel about my husband right now like I did like on the second date. Like, that would be insane. You would have to like on cocaine for to be like that, against all of nature. But in a loving relationship, you can still have sex, you could still have closeness, you could still have date nights. It's like, I think that sometimes— not so—

I don't Your connection, Samantha, your connection's dropping a little bit there.

All the time. Because the guys that come to you and they're like, oh my God, the honeymoon stage ended. It's like— Am I back?

You're very choppy. Am I okay now? Last 30 seconds or so you've been very choppy.

Am I back? Can you see me?

We can, but it's still choppy, at least on my end. I assume that's what everybody else is seeing.

You want me to come out and come back?

You may be all right now. I don't know, maybe just hang around a little bit, see if it smooths over. You seem to be better now. The wonderful, wonderful world of internet. Yeah, maybe you should come out, come back in. Yeah, now you're frozen. Oh boy, this is— if she could see that. Can you guys still see me? Yeah, I guess I'm still on. So we'll see if Samantha comes back here. Oh, there she is. And you're back. Say hello. No, you're still frozen. The frozen faces are the best. If you could see the— if you could see No good. You're still frozen. And we have you frozen in one particular— the last time you were frozen doing one of these. Now you're frozen doing this. Okay, you're better. You're back. I think we're back.

I think we're good.

Yeah, we're good. All right.

That was fun. I'm back out. But I guess what I was saying was, if people do not know that you can be in a happy relationship after the honeymoon stage, Why? You know, the reason why is because they didn't grow up seeing that. They weren't able to talk to their dad or their mom or to— or to model after a healthy relationship. We are very isolated in this world. We used to live in extended kin networks. Now we do not. People like— there are people that have never talked to a family member about anything related to sex, including men whose father never talked to them about sex or relationships, certainly women who never did. I mean, sometimes guys are thinking that like— or women are thinking like everybody else is living this eternal honeymoon stage and that's what a happy marriage looks like. That is not what a happy marriage looks like. That's why I have a podcast like, what does a healthy relationship look like after the honeymoon stage? Because people are comparing it. And especially guys who watch a lot of porn, you know, then they're like, everybody else is in like some hedonistic wonderland except for me. And even just setting— like, you got a level set and be like, what is— what does a healthy relationship look like? You know, it doesn't look like 7 date nights a week and like anal every Tuesday. It doesn't. It really doesn't. Except maybe in your marriage. But it doesn't.

That's good. Right away, every now and then during these little chats, I think about the sound bites and the little clips that I'm going to take from them. And that was one right there. Anal every Tuesday. All right, should make a book called that. Um, so, but Greg says that it seems that she was explaining that a happy relationship includes some sex. It's hard when there's none to very little. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So here's the thing. Yeah, often when I hear, often when I hear from men, they'll say, I'm telling you, this relationship is A+ perfect, amazing, except for the sex thing. We're a great partnership. We logistically run this family unit perfectly. We're just two peas in a pod. And some men even tell me, we're very touchy. We're very snuggly. We're very, you know, on the couch together, we're hugging and kissing, we're butt slapping. We just don't cross the bridge into the doing the act, rarely if ever.

And I have a podcast on that and I want to give it to him, but I guess I'll just do it afterwards because I can't do these links. But send to me. I can post everything. Oh, I'll send it to you. It says everything is fine in our marriage except for sex. That is a bullshit garbage lie. That is not true. That isn't real. That's like not reality. So that's like saying like, Like, everything is great in this marriage except he lives in California and he doesn't know that we're married, but otherwise it's like a perfect relationship. It's a fiction. That is a delusion. So there are no relationships where one human being wants to be having sex, the other person says 100% I will not, but otherwise is a loving partner. That is just some bullshit that people tell themselves so that they don't have to confront whether they should get a divorce.

That's what I said in my book, The Dead Bedroom Fix. I said the lack of sex is the canary in the coal mine for much deeper-seated issues. And sure enough, when you talk to these guys, you start going, ah, there's a not good thing that has nothing to do with sex in your marriage. Oh, there's another not good thing. Oh, this happened 3 years ago. Oh yeah, it's always bad.

It is always bad.

And you're right, it's because these guys had no early childhood model for what a healthy long-term and yes, sexual relationship what a relationship looks like. They just don't. It's just completely foreign to them. Exactly. So, but again, we're kind of going in circles here. Often how it is framed is that the low libido person kind of is in the driver's seat when it comes to this stuff, lower libido person. So, well, what's healthy? You go to regular/high libido guy and he's like, you know what would be great? Twice a week, man. That'd be awesome. I would live with every Monday and Friday or whatever. Maybe. And you go to the wife and she just says, I love him to death, but once a month is awesome for me. Well, can we compromise?

She doesn't love him to death. And that's what we have to talk about in couples counseling, because she doesn't love him to death. Because if you look through at what they're actually doing— and sometimes I get, God, the most saddest field reports in the world— this once a, once a month It's like freaking 7 minutes including her shower afterwards, and it's like awful, you know? And so that is not loving somebody. And so sometimes women in particular need like the straight talking approach. And it is like also a delusion that men have that like women do not change in couples counseling and that they don't respond to feedback. I have had multiple women be like, ever since you've told me, even on the podcast, forget about in session when, as you can imagine, I'm quite direct. But even from the podcast, they're like, I have transformed my marriage since hearing you say that physical touch is important to men. I literally did not know that. Literally, because nobody has ever said that except my husband, always whining about shit. So who the fuck even knows with him? But like, hearing another person say it was transformative, and that's helped our marriage. But the point is, is that if you're having 7 minutes of sex every month that would be like the equivalent of the man refusing to say hello to you when he walked into the room but saying he's still a nice guy. That's just not real. On the other hand, there is objective reality, and if a woman's having like an hour of sex with you twice a week when she does have like tiny little kids, that's something to be happy about, you know? Or at least to say, cool, I think I'm doing pretty well, I'm pretty well situated, even though I might want it every day.

But the, uh, the numbers show us twice a week, which I think sounds like pretty normal, healthy to me, um, is relatively rare. Uh, there was a study— it depends on what survey you, you read or whatever, but there was a survey that's often stated by a lot of articles you read and so forth that shows 53%, which is the slight majority of married couples in America, have sex twice a month or less.

How much?

Twice a month or less. 53%.

53% have twice a month. Well, that is also including very old people and also postmenopausal women. But what I have seen from— I'll, I'll, I, uno, reverse your study. I have that study that says that once a week is correlated with a happy marriage and anything above that, it doesn't—

yeah, it doesn't, um, not happy year.

Yeah. I have seen that like the happiest couples that I see— then again, they're also on the younger end— tend to have sex 2-3 times a week, you know, the happiest. But remember, that's not every— if she gets her period, if she doesn't feel good, if the kid is sleeping in the bed because the kid has the flu, then it doesn't go to every week. And if it's, you know, and that's also like super variable according to her cycle. There's a lot of women are super impacted by hormones, obviously. And in the first half of their cycle, they could be doing it every other day. In the second— I saw a meme that said like the second half of a woman's cycle is lesbian phase. I thought that was hilarious because it really is lesbian phase. It's like after ovulation, a lot of women really could not be less interested at all. And so a lot of people just have to learn how to track stuff too, by the way, but that's its own conversation. But yes, twice a month is not going to make most people happy, nor does that mean that you really love your husband.

That's a— it's a— well, it's a controversial thing, especially coming from a lady. You know, I see the pushback from a lot of ladies is that they understand and they empathize with the men's desire and so forth, but they say, have some empathy for us. The act of intercourse is one that is a little more extreme in vulnerability and physicality and all that stuff versus baking cookies. You know, we're talking about doing the most vulnerable—

making cookies takes like 7,000 times as long. Like, people make cookies, it takes them like an hour. People are having sex— I know I'm not saying this is right, but people are having sex for like 180 seconds. And so if a person thinks that having sex— okay, so there's exceptions. If you're postmenopausal, you have vaginal atrophy, and that hurts, it literally physically painful, no sex drive at all because your body biologically doesn't want sex and you're older. This is a different scenario. But if we're talking about people in their 30s and 40s, right, um, yep, perimenopause can start in your 40s. But the point is, is if you find it that vulnerable to have intercourse, that upsetting, that much of a big deal, why It's either the marriage is truly a garbage fire and you have no respect for this guy. He's cheated, I've seen it, he's cheated on the woman before, he looks at porn all the time, kind of treats her like shit. So of course she doesn't want to have sex with him, she barely wants to look at him, like no kidding. But like, if it's a situation where she could say with a straight face that she loves him but some sex is too vulnerable, like that is a sex issue, that's not a him and her issue. That's something where unilaterally on on her end. She should go into therapy and figure out— I, I'm sure that woman was raised very sex negative. I'm sure she saw things that were bad about sex, possibly in her own house. Maybe she has sexual trauma. Like, having sex with somebody you ostensibly love, having that be too vulnerable to do, is, is— that is not a relational issue, that's an individual issue. Unless it is a this marriage is terrible issue, and I don't want to be vulnerable with him. I barely want to look at him in the face, never mind have sex with him.

Yeah, you know, we have the physical thing, the emotional thing. A thing that I frequently hear, not to be too crass, is vaginismus, where the, the opening is clenched. That is a result of anxiety, past trauma, and so forth. Sometimes there's some physical things that can result in that. But, uh, we also, we also have the, uh, and every man knows this the transactional element to this. I realize this is important to you, man. If you want to win the prize of physical affection from your wife, I'm gonna need some things done around here. And very often this goes down the path of domestic duties. You know, maybe if you made the bed every day, I would do so. And so we have these anxious men that are like, yes ma'am, and they jump to attention. They don't just make the bed, they make the bed and then clean the house from top to bottom and get on their hands and knees and scrub the tile and everything else. And they're like, like, shit, still no sex. This sucks. So we could go around and around in circles with this whole sex and marriage thing. It's kind of complicated.

Yeah, those are relationship issues. You know, sex is a proxy variable for connection and closeness and vulnerability. And there's a lot of couples where they're talking about just the wrong thing, like how we were just talking about gifts. The gift isn't the issue. Sex isn't the issue. Like is the fact that, like, you're not a team in your relationship, you know? I mean, it's the fact that you can't be close. It's the fact that there is no joy and connection. I'm not saying there's supposed to be, like, euphoria, like in the honeymoon stage, but still joy in connection, you know?

I agree 100%. Do you need to get out of here by any certain time? I know you're a busy gal. You have 10 more minutes?

Um, yeah, I have 10 more minutes.

Okay. I gotta leave in about 10-15 minutes. Okay, so Ken says, I finally reduced my anxiety when I accepted that she doesn't share my anxiety or feel that it's an issue. She quit thinking about it years ago. It being sex, or what exactly? It just took me years later to pick up on the hint. So Ralph's advice to work on yourself and act as if you couldn't care less— well, I don't think that's necessarily my advice— is sound. I move from chasing to attraction.

Ralph's advice to be an asshole.

In fact, I, in my writings and so forth, in the book, I say don't be an asshole. Still be a loving, caring individual and reach out and so forth. Just don't hang— it's funny, this is kind of an anxious take. The more to center and secure you become, an anxious person says, I gotta be an asshole. No, dude, it's just called being—

I've seen that all the time. So you're telling me to be an asshole, right? Okay.

Yeah. And then he says, uh, he moved from chasing to attracting. So very good. The time off from chasing was good for me. I realized that I have power over this anxiety. Well, very good. I gave up extrovert activities that she doesn't care for, but I do. Oh, in the past you gave up those activities. And much happier now as an authentic me versus trying to be what I thought that she wanted. Yeah, this is Anxious Guy 101. I'm, I don't— I'm trying to win favor. I'm a people pleaser. I'm, I'm, I used to ride motorcycles, and I see that my wife is very nervous about me riding motorcycles. Don't worry, I'll throw my throw your hobby under the bus. I'll put my motorcycle up for sale tomorrow. All right, do you, do you love me now, wife? And not a very attractive thing by any means. And it shows that, yeah, Mr. People Pleaser Anxious 101, and, uh, not good. And this is stereotypical anxious guy who gets divorced, goes back to, uh, you know, getting the guitars that he gave up before— raising my hand— uh, goes back to the— it goes back to the motorcycle, goes back to this, goes back to that, goes back to his old self and he realizes, why did I dump all that stuff to begin with? Because you're trying to make mommy happy, basically, and just worried that she would leave you, so you just completely changed yourself to make wife happy and you realize, hey, that didn't work. Of course not. Greg says, you guys need to team up more often. Well, we're just busy, that's all. A business idea is brewing. He says that if we teamed up more often, it would make us both very rich. Well, hello, Greg, all right. Maybe you both already are. If not, make it happen. So informative, much appreciated. Well, thank you, Greg.

Yeah, it's just, uh, that's nice.

We're both very busy people. I don't believe so. He may be a follower, but I don't believe Greg is a member of the DSO fraternity. Should be though. Would love to have you. Let me put that in the link, shall I?

Yeah, sure. And you should also join my Facebook group, Greg. That has women in it, not that you're looking. But if people want the female perspective as well, I, and I was gonna say, it's so interesting because as both of us know, there are more avoidant guys than preoccupied guys, except on the internet where you would imagine that every— if you were a Martian that just looked at the internet, you'd be like, every man is preoccupied attachment. But it's just avoidant guys don't go on relationship forums and neither secure guys as much, you know. So the point being that in my Facebook group, um, which if anybody's watching, blue subscribe button on the Dr. Psych Mom Facebook page. But, um, point is, these women are like, wait, there's preoccupied attachment, guys? Because the women in there, a lot of them are preoccupied attachment and they're the pursuer. I thought almost it was always almost that way, and until I worked more with couples, you know. So it can sometimes be a real like eye-opener for men to see that this is not the way that it has to be. There are plenty of women that are in fact overly invested in their relationships and sex and all of this stuff, and they are the massive pursuer and the partner and everything. This idea that like all men are the ones who like are the ones working on the relationship and spearheading all the relationship conversations, that is antithetical to everything. Most women are the ones buying the books, like Oh honey, do you know, you know, like that we should talk about these date night questions. So it is interesting for people to see that it's not only the way that they view it in terms of the gender split.

Greg says, uh, thank you for that, Samantha. Greg says, yeah, we had a coaching session earlier this week. Greg and I did. I apologize, Greg. Obviously, obviously Greg left quite the impression on me. Yes, Gregory, I remember now. Klein, I did not remember, and I can't see your face too well on here, but very good. And I just said your name out loud, so people listening to this, I apologize, Greg, if you don't want me saying your first and last name, Greg K. But Wordsmith, Wordsmith is a frequent commenter.

Oh yeah, on my YouTube too, I think from you. Hi, Wordsmith, you must have come from Ralph Brewer.

He says that Samantha, we got a few more minutes here, Samantha's done a video on how guys should lower their libido. By avoiding porn, etc.

He takes this wrong every time.

And Ralph Brewer Brewer Brewer has done a video on how lowering a man's sex drive is not good either. Would love to hear your thoughts. What Samantha is saying is, if you're— and again, I also said in that video, porn, guys, don't. It's not good. Just lay off of it, please. Um, but what I have seen, not necessarily from Samantha but from others, is, uh, in men, you should avert your eyes anytime a woman walks by you. And man, you should not go to the gymnasium. And man, you should not do this. And you certainly should—

like the, like, super religious people say that.

It's probably more— yeah, you're more religious conservative types. But there's also this theme amongst a lot of relationship help people, which is, again, the relationship machine must be saved at all costs. We must stay within the parameters of this machine. Mister, don't you dare look at any other girl. Look over here. Machine, relationship machine. Don't, don't go to the gym. You know what's gonna happen to the gym?

I say of course you're supposed to fantasize if you see a hot girl. You're just a human being. What I'm saying is that if you're looking at porn every day, that's not your natural libido. That's an artificially inflated, fluffed, primed libido. When I work with individual clients, male clients, it's They'll finally say, all right, all right, I'll go off porn for a week or two. They come back like 2 weeks, they're like, so it's the weirdest thing, I don't have the libido that I thought I would. And I'm like, no shit, I've been saying that to you this whole damn time. And then they come closer because remember, both men and women are human and mammals, and age comes for us all. So a woman that wants sex once a week and a guy who is himself through porn that he wants sex at 50 years old 3 times a day, um, because that ain't real. He is going to realize if he completely goes off of porn that maybe he wants it 3 times a week. Maybe they could get to 2 times a week and that would be a natural compromise. But if she got to 2 times a week before, he was still wanting it 3 times a day because he's watching constant images of hot women bombarded into his brain, which is a drug, nothing you see in the natural universe, and keeps him in this fluffed, primed state where every time he walks into Starbucks, he thinks that the barista just got DP'd, and it's not.

That puts a vision in. And for those that don't know what that means, don't go Googling that. Not at least—

not at work, not at work computer. But yes, I'm not saying that people should be like castrating themselves. I'm saying stop artificial officially fluffing yourself. And I always use the example of what if a guy didn't like how much his wife talked and they had constant conflict because she wanted to talk his ear off all the time? What if there was a drug she could take that made her talk even more and she felt that was really fun and cute because she just got to talk so much and he should like it? That would lead to divorce. And that's what porn is. If your libidos are already far apart, Don't make them further apart by injecting a drug into your bloodstream called porn. That's my only point.

What about injecting a drug called testosterone? What if you went to the doctor and he's like, you could benefit from testosterone?

Yeah, what— customer is always right situation in many cases.

What about, uh, you know, going to the gym and I'm surrounded by all these hot gym bunnies that are barely By the way, I go to a gymnasium in Texas, which is right at the Dallas Cowboys practice facility. The Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders literally come in there to work out. It's basically like a— I'm walking in there and it's like a porn. It's just like, what the hell? And the women that aren't the cheerleaders are barely wearing anything. It's just, it's ridiculous. And so the case can be made like, Ralph, you don't need to be going to that gym if you're trying to work on your marriage and your wife is lower libido, but you're just working yourself up into a frenzy and coming home and getting all frustrated. All right, maybe I shouldn't go to that gym. Maybe I should work from home. All right, maybe I shouldn't. So now we're kind of going down to what exactly is the definition of artificially pumping up? That's what I was getting, and that's what a lot of men hear is their counselor.

You know, the cavemen did not have access to, you know, the internet, and you can look at like 10,000 women. It's great that you see the hot cheerleaders But even the hot cheerleaders, you're just seeing them one at a time and they do have clothes on. If you went home and looked them up and like did it like for an hour, you know, looking at naked ones doing everything you wanted, that would not be your natural libido. Sure, go out in the world and do things that other human beings do, you know, but do not do something that was created as a product to be addictive, you know. That's what that is. Exactly.

And, and Greg said he had a medical reason for going. 175 is the level that is very unhealthy. And you'll have a cascading, you know, series of medical problems as a result of that. So sure, going on that. But yes, that will— your libido will probably go up as a result and something you got to contend with. It could be argued, yeah, your libido is going up to that of a healthy man. Welcome to being a dude.

Right. And if it goes up to a healthy man of his age, that's fine. If he pumps it up to 600 because he wants to be like a 20-year-old, that's not gonna like work so well, you know.

I'm saying just not gonna get it up there to 1,000, Greg. You only live once.

And then go to the gym that Ralph Brewer Brewer goes to and see how many cheerleaders you can lay.

Yeah, dude, I'll meet you there. It's pretty awesome. Well, I need to run. My wife is texting me that she is— she's at the restaurant waiting on me for lunch right now as we speak down the road.

So Thank you.

Thank you all so very much for joining us. DadStartingOver.com. Search for Dad Starting Over on any social media platform, wherever it is you're watching this. And Dr. Psych Mom, Dr. Samantha Rodman-Whiten, do a search for that anywhere. You'll find both of us, a lot of material, a lot of videos, articles, podcasts, member groups, all that good stuff.

So, Samantha, passive income, baby.

There you go. All right, Sam, thank you so much.

Thank you so much. Talk to you soon.

All right, guys, thank you.

Okay, bye-bye.