DSO and @drpsychmom - Live Chat!

Oh, are we live right now?

It says we are live. So let me, uh, go on over here to—

and you also videotape this thing, right? Or do you record it?

Listen to you.

Do you play it on your VCR?

Yes, we get out the camcorder and the VCR. Yeah, it's, uh, there is a delay when we talk here.

It's like, I don't know, maybe like one person's watching. Maybe you're like making sure I test it out or something. Is it live on Facebook? Let me see if it's live on Facebook. Is it like you— it's live on Facebook too?

Let me see. Yes, we are. A little bit of a delay there, but we are on. Cool.

Oh, do we have 5 people? Why don't I see it though? Oh my God, this is so meta. All right, cool. All right, great. So let's talk then.

What do we talk about now? We haven't even— we haven't planned this whatsoever.

No, somebody's supposed to ask questions. Are they allowed to ask on the little thing, or does it come up on— how do you do this, Ralph?

Well, there's different ways. Hold on a second. You should see comments on your thing, do you not? On your end?

Comment on my end?

No.

Do you see comments on your end?

I do. Oh, no, it brings them in from Facebook and YouTube and everything all at once.

Or you can comment. It says no comments, so obviously I can't see them. Only you could see them.

Um, you're in the all comments view and it shows none. Maybe there's a bit delay on your end.

We'll give Sarah—

you can also open up Facebook on your end and see there. So far we just have hellos. So hello from Honduras. Hello from the left coast. You got people from all over.

You got wide-ranging fans.

Hola, Roy. Cool.

So as far as hair, like a new style choice that you're doing?

I'm sorry, are you making fun of me now? I— this takes like, for me, this takes like 2 days and I'm good to go. It grows very, very fast. So I've given myself this whole week break, give the face a break. So what you're seeing is a few days worth. Yeah, and I trim it down. Look at all the gray. Look at this.

Yeah, it's all gray here. Time, time goes on. Oh, I do see now, I'm starting to see hellos from—

they're coming in. Yeah, just a little delay there. There's our buddy Rudy. I don't know if you've spoken or have seen Rudy on there. His show is Rude Advice. He is very big on TikTok.

Very big on TikTok.

I am too. I've had Rudy on my podcast and I've been on his podcast twice now. We just did one. So hello, Rudy. Rudy A.

That's cool. Michael said, what platform did you two use for this? I know there was issues the last time. Well, astonishingly, there were similar issues today.

This is, um, this is— I'm using a platform, I'm using a platform on my Mac called Ecamm. Ecamm. So it does everything, uh, right here from my computer. So pretty cool stuff. It's kind of like an alternative to StreamYard or, uh, OBS or one of the others. Anywho, what to talk about? Um, are there any hot topics that have come up that you have posted about, or you've been getting a lot of comments on? I know I have my own.

Well, the menopause one, I just did that. Yes, the menopause one, I did that. My wife was in a coma analogy for that one. Yeah, but she just lays there like a starfish. But yeah, the menopause, that we could always talk about. Perimenopause, which terrifies— hello, Mysterio— um, it terrifies men even more because perimenopause comes before menopause. So they thought they had until 52, and now they're hearing that they actually don't because biology is not like that. You know, it doesn't— you don't just drop off a cliff. So there is, of course, that pre-stage where the hormone starts switching, shifting around, and that upsets you know, men as well, particularly the men who are already anxious about their sex lives, you know.

Yeah. And as I mentioned in my little video, the guys I talked to are often the anxious ones. And they are with the gals who are not so anxious. They're more avoidant in nature and just not really interested in that stuff. And unfortunately, for some of those guys, they get to the point where things do improve. They go to a therapist, they're talking to me, da da da da, whatever, and everything is great. And then the wife hits them with the old I'm going through the change. And he's like, God damn it, just when things were getting better. And here we are. And then they're left with this. This man has this newfound energy and excitement and confidence. And the wife's biology is saying, time's up. Sorry. And that's very, very upsetting because I'm dealing with guys that are mostly in their 40s and 50s. Yeah, older, but it's usually 40s and 50s that I'm dealing with. And so it's a tough time. Tough time.

Yeah, sure. Tough time. And obviously, empathy needs to happen because I I mean, these guys don't want the woman to think that they should be able to run a 7-minute mile anymore, you know what I mean? And of course, if they're on enough testosterone to kill a horse like some of these dudes do, then they maybe can do that, but they won't always be able to. Time comes for us all. Aging is real. So like, the more empathy you have for your partner going up and down through whatever vicissitudes of life there are, then the more empathy they're gonna have for you. Marriage is really not just about one thing, whether it's sex, emotion, or anything. It's a holistic sort of thing. And empathy is like, empathy lacks on both sides, obviously, in terms of this thing.

But tell that to, as far as the marriage is not just one thing, it's more than sex. Tell that to the guy who's been without it for a long, long time.

Yeah, it's true.

And he unfortunately, or fortunately, gets a taste of the good life. And then he's hit upside the head with—

Yeah, although it's so interesting. It's so complex, you know, because sometimes the guy thinks that it's the good life. And she thinks he understands that I'm, I'm basically giving him a gift, you know, of something I really don't want to do. And then he's like kind of convincing himself that like she's really into it and like all this stuff. And then when she's like, well, shit, you know, I've been like, you know, trying for years and like it's really getting like painful and difficult, and, and don't you see, kind of, don't you give me any credit for having tried? And he's convinced himself that she wasn't even trying, that it was just how charming he was the whole time. So, you know, there's like all these different levels of delusion and illusion, some adaptive and some not, within marriage, you know. And this is what come out in couples counseling. Thank you, Rita Quick Cooper, who says, I'm a realist. I am a realist.

But you're hitting on some, uh, and you're— I know that you're a big student of like evolutionary psychology and David Buss. And, and what are some of the underlying fundamental biological things that I haven't heard that shit since grad school.

David, I put a paper on David Buzz and waist-to-hip ratio.

And he's still around. He's, he's still hitting the podcast circle. Oh yeah, he's huge now. He's, he was on Rogan here not too long ago. He's all over the place. Wow, he's looking good. Yeah, he must be in his 70s, maybe even later than that, early 80s maybe by now. But yeah, he's looking good. He's in, uh, he's in Texas if I remember right. Austin, I think. But anywho, so we have this not so good foundational stuff that's under the surface, especially for us dudes. That is, um, all right, especially if you're injecting some testosterone in your system, or if you're one of those lucky bastards who's 50-some years old and still looks and acts like, you know, he's in his 30s, 20s or 30s. Um, that guy has a—

many more of those guys who think they're that guy than who actually All right, trust me, I know.

But he has lurking under the surface, a biology that says— and this is not nice to say, but it is true. And any scientist will tell you the same thing. Right now, everything in his body is screaming, you're supposed to be going out and still making some babies.

Sure.

See that young one over there? Ooh, see that young one over there? You know, porn and the like preys upon this. This urge, if you will, or this natural inclination. So when you're a 50-some-year-old guy, and you still have that very strong, uh, to hear a therapist or otherwise tell you, dude, you need to be a little bit more realistic here. Your wife's no spring chicken anymore. How best to say this. So if you got a guy, for example, you know, I use my, my example of the formerly anxious dude who is just tasting the good life and so forth. What if you have like a Trying to say this without coming across as too much of an asshole. Let's say you got like a super handsome billionaire guy who flies all over the world and he has women hitting on him left and right, but he's, he's faithful to his wife, loves her to death. They've been through everything together.

From Axe Capital in Billions.

What's that again? I'm sorry.

Axe. Did you watch Billions?

You know, I watched it, um, like a first season or so. I remember it was something—

Axe. Remember it happened in the first season?

You know what? That show is like a, uh, wow, that's just the psychologist's wet dream, isn't it? With— you have the one politician, if I remember right, he's in the— into the S&M scene.

Yes, one who is basically private therapist for acts. So like all these guys come in thinking—

that's right, that's the connection there. That's right. Yeah, I forgot about that show. I need to watch that again. That was a good one. But anyway, so you got billionaire dude Mr. Handsome loves his wife to death. He is less apt to put up with or be patient with a wife who says, you know, I'm 47 years old here, I'm perimenopause, menopause, it's time to take it from 3 or 4 times a week, Mr. Billionaire, to 3 or 4 times a month. That guy is less apt to say, sounds cool. That guy's gonna say, Why? Because he has options. Um, Mr. David Bussin.

Every guy kind of has options. I mean, you know, I see them.

Yeah, no, not every—

there's all these bad sacks that don't, but I see all of these guys do well. Like, for every pot there's a cover. Everybody is attractive to somebody.

I know you've said that before, but there's a pretty big contingent of men who would scream at the heavens that I can't even get a woman to look at me, Ralph, because some of those guys come on and in the comments and It's not their looks that's the problem.

It's their attitude towards women.

No, exactly. Well, yeah, here, let's, let's even be more political. Let's be more politically incorrect. I speak to a lot of guys who probably fall into the autism spectrum, and they have a very difficult time with relationships, and they have a very difficult time with flirting and charm.

Right, attachment women that want to take that wounded bird under their wing and fluff them up there. And for real, I mean, that's the women That's the woman that ends up in these marriages with these dudes, you know. They're just like fucking, like, super enabling, like, want him, love him up, and just make him the best, and dress him up in his outfit so he looks more normal, and tell him what to say. But anyway, fine. So either way, you're telling me that there's more and less attractive men, which obviously I understand being a human on this planet, and the more attractive men get more upset when they don't have sex.

Yeah, you know, there's, there's a term in the manosphere, if you will, of high value man. Oh yeah, the high value, which, which means good looking, makes some money, you can get a lot of women. And yes, that exists. I'm sorry, but it does. There's an upper echelon of dudes that just wake up every morning and go, you know, they scroll through their phone and say, yeah, you know, that, and they get all kinds of women.

A lot of these guys, they're my clients. These are the CEO that I see.

And what's another way of looking at this? I talked to guys who in their 40s suddenly has this onset of, you know, I'm not really that bad after all. He went through his whole young adulthood, adolescence and everything, just really not liking himself very much. Very, very anxious, dude. Shitty childhood. I don't like me. What woman will like me? So I get with this woman who doesn't really like me. Imagine that. And then he suddenly says, um, I suddenly feel better about myself. I look better, I feel better, therapy, all that nonsense. And then, uh, and then, uh, what's funny is what I don't hear often from these men is, uh, you know, my wife is kind of an asshole after all. And the more I think about it, they will often still throw themselves under the bus and say, she's an asshole, but I deserve it. I've been a dick, or I've been a, I've been a weakling. That's the, that's the common thing. I am I could have been more of a man all these years. She's just responding to my last— my lack of masculinity. That's why she's been treating me this way, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, then that quickly morphs into, for the first time ever, I looked at my wife and said, she's getting kind of old. I looked at my wife and said, she actually could lose a few pounds. And I'm like, oh shit, here we go. As soon as the man started having this feeling of, I'm kind of a high-value dude, all of a sudden they start nitpicking and looking at all the little thingies. And that's when I'm like, yep, this is, this is close to the end here. This guy is, uh, he's gone from Mr.

Yeah, they never saw the wife realistically to begin with, and now they're seeing her less. So they used to see her, put her on a pedestal, and now they see all of her flaws. So they went from idealization to devaluation.

There it is.

And yep, you know, and, and that's neither one is how the woman really is. She was always kind of, you know, like just regular girl. And he never saw it. And you know, when he had low self-esteem, he said that she was a princess among women, and now he thinks that maybe she's worse off than she is. But either way, I mean, when people dramatically change how they think of their significant other, it has to do mostly with them, you know, versus anything about their significant other who's really been quite similar the whole time.

You got it.

Same thing happens with women when they like they gain a lot of confidence. They put the guy on a pedestal. They gain a lot of confidence through like being a mother, maybe like their job or what have you. And they're like, oh, wait a second, you know, I'm no longer— I don't have to think that I'm financially dependent. I no longer feel emotionally dependent. I no longer think, oh my God, how does he know how to do all these things, like, you know, like pay bills or something that they have now learned how to do. So they feel like, oh, well, you know what, I'm an independent human being as well. And maybe I don't have to put up with whatever previous annoying habits I've I put up with, or not just annoying habits, but like addiction or like cheating or whatever, you know. So when people's self-esteem grows, when people get better in any way, usually that, that is rough for the marriage, just like the movie I always recommend, When a Man Loves a Woman, you know.

Yep. And that is pointed out by the, the opposing partner of they never really loved me to begin with. Because as soon as she got her executive job and she started getting into a crowd of more hyper-successful people, she suddenly doesn't care for her stay-at-home husband anymore. As soon as I, you know, started going to perimenopause and I wasn't as energetic and sexual anymore, he went with the young bimbo. Yeah, this shit happens. It sucks. It's the nasty underbelly of the relationship world. But I personally hear it all the time. I'm sure you do too.

It's better for people if they're already feeling like shit about their spouse and they really feel like they have now come up in the world and they deserve something better. You know, sometimes that, that can go back and the person could be just like, wow, I'm like giddy on like, you know, like I sold my company for like millions of dollars and I'm giddy and I'm like basically in a manic phase. And so I think that things are different than they are and that will recede and I really love this person. But you know, if somebody was kind of always, I don't know, kind of, uh, self-involved, because people with low self-esteem are pretty self-involved too. It doesn't mean you can't be self-involved if you have low self-esteem. Self-esteem. So like, you could be a guy that got a woman basically because she reflects well on you and you had low self-esteem, but you were still like pretty shallow. So you got like as pretty a woman as you could, and now you made a lot of money, so you think you could get even prettier. Well, this guy isn't like an awesome guy. He tends toward being a narcissist even though he had low self-esteem. So he would probably do her a favor if he left and upgraded to another woman that then, you know, when he's 70 years old, he could try to get a 50-year-old too. You know, like there's some people that are just kind of shallow, men and women both.

Oh sure.

And in those cases, if they leave their spouse, it's not really the worst thing in the world for the spouse, particularly if the kids are older. So like guys who can't— oh, go ahead.

I put a comment up on the screen. I don't— you can't see it on your end unless you probably look over on Facebook, but, uh, Michael says, I'm a 46-year-old married male to a 30-year-old female. Oh, Michael, nice. And our resident-in-law I recently lost my position of 8 years. Uh-oh. It takes a long time to find a professional position. However, in the home, he can feel her pulling away. And he's curious if this situation will resolve in time. Or is this going to be a situation where she starts losing respect for him long term? May I?

I mean, oh, yeah, go ahead.

Yes, it is. Usually when I talk to men of I'm in this dead bedroom situation, stuff is shitty. When do you think the wheels fell off the relationship? They will either point to when kids entered the picture. That really changes the dynamic completely. And, um, or there was some holy shit moment, like, I lost my job is the one thing I hear quite often. The dude says this: I lost my job and things got stressful. The wife lost respect for me because she came home and I was sitting on the couch, and she was always asking me, how many resumes did you put out today? Did you talk to that guy today? And That's when things went downhill. Um, respect is big for both sides, but I would say probably more so for the women. What do you think?

Oh, I think both people want both love and respect. That bullshit that women want love and men want respect is just that bullshit. I think all healthy humans want both love and respect. I see so many men that don't respect their wives because they just sit on the couch, you know. I mean, it's that— that's a major, major thing for both genders. I mean, in this case, what— like, there was a contract here. He got to be with this 20 years younger hottie because he's providing a certain level of lifestyle. No shit, that's evolution. That David Buss would agree, right? So I mean, if he can no longer provide the lifestyle— if she went into a time machine and she got aged 20 years older, he wouldn't be so happy either. So this was, you know— and I'm sure there could be love there as well, But it's a fairly obvious contract. An older man with power, with respect in the world, gets a younger woman to, you know, act happy and jumpy and happy and young. So, you know, if he's not doing his part, then yeah, sure, she's gonna lose interest. No shit.

And well, but this, um, you really hit this, and I agree with you 100%. I personally, when I, I have the same attitude when I'm talking to men of like Yeah, dude, this was kind of your brand when you guys got together, was you're Mr. Provider, well-to-do, you know, multimillionaire man. And then all of a sudden you get sued and you lose the business and your really hot trophy wife starts looking elsewhere. And a lot of men, their knee-jerk reaction is, there you go, the shallowness of women, the hypergamous nature of a woman. She's looking for the next best deal and so forth.

Um, yeah.

But I guess it points to the pragmatic shallowness— what I— realistic nature of relationships to begin with. We both have circumstances.

He got her because she was young and hot, you know, as a major part of why he got her. So if she stopped being so young— it's so— women hear that and they say, yeah, well, that dude's shallow too. And like, hopefully you and I could both be here and be like, the both of them are shallow, or they're not, or they're both practical. But whatever one of those was, the other one was.

Yep.

So if she, if she gained 50 pounds, I would love to be talking about the hypergamous blah blah blah, right? Because that would not be in the marital contract. Also, you wouldn't be—

you got it. That's, um, I'm looking for additional, uh questions here to go off of.

Then why even take vows for better or worse? Because Stephen Schrager, everybody's not an asshole, you know. I mean, some people are— oh, you want me to let him talk, Judy? Here, Judy would like you to expand. Judy said let him talk.

No, no, please go ahead.

No, no, no. Um, so why even take vows for better or worse? Because everybody isn't like that, you know. There are people who value marriage for better and for worse. It's usually not the old rich dude with the young hot woman. Those people are looking for a different sort of thing. That's, that's more of an arrangement, you know. Often that's more of an arrangement. But there are a lot of people who are me, you know, relatively young or somewhat young, have children together, build a family. Like, not everything is about sex or money, you know. There are lots of different Companionship, love, uh, having, you know, somebody to talk to, to take care of, take care of you. And the kids are huge. I mean, if this guy has kids with this woman, then it's different, you know, and, and then she will be different with him. But if it is just kind of a situation where they're both really trying to live their best life with the other one as conduit for it, then, you know, it's different. There are all kinds of marriages. Hopefully some are built on very strong friendship and family life. That's what I think.

So then, uh, the million-dollar question then is, I'm a man, at any point I could technically lose my job or my business or whatever. I'm a woman, age is inevitable. I'm not going to be the saucy young 21-something-year-old. So how do we, uh, how do we make sure that we, um build a foundation of a relationship early on that will properly contend with these inevitable life things when they happen to us? Is it as simple as sitting down with your partner early on and going, "All right, here's the deal. I'm going to get old, and you're a multimillionaire businessman or whatever, and I'm concerned that you're eventually going to lose attraction to me and dump me for some dumb bimbo. What is some reassurance I have that that this is not going to happen, mister. Do we build this into a legal agreement?

Did we, you know, most people do at that stage. If he was a millionaire with any great— I know, but he has a prenup, you know. I mean, that is a big thing. And I mean, honestly, the best case in this scenario— I mean, I've seen a lot of people with these wide age gaps, and usually it's interesting, the man loses his sex drive before before any of this matters. So if there really is a 20-year age difference, if, if he's 50 and she's 30, by the time she's 50 and he's 70, you know, no matter what he thinks, no matter what IV of testosterone he has plunging right into his bloodstream all the time, he's still not going to have the sex drive of a young man. And he'll be happy to see her attractive 50-year-old self, which will still be a truth. If of course he just completely diverged and, you know, gained a million pounds and just sits on the couch and it's not a real bitch to him, then yeah, I mean, they would probably be better off splitting. But at that level, you're not breaking up a family usually either. So I mean, it kind of doesn't really matter. And people can— like, if you get married purely for pleasure, then get divorced when the pleasure ends. But not everybody does that. People have very different values for marriage, all, all ranges values. Many men would be thrilled if they had sex once a week with somebody who loved them and they were building a family and, and businesses and all sorts of stuff together. Everybody isn't super shallow.

Did you say once a week?

Yeah, once a week. I'm sorry, that's not gonna cut it for you. Okay, that's not gonna cut it.

I know, I'm just being silly.

Yes, right, but you, you know what I mean. But there are plenty of 50-year-old guys who come in and say to me, Literally, like, I'll be like, oh yeah, I'm sure he wants to have sex. I'll be like, no, really, how much do you want to have sex? No, really. And they'll be like, when she's not in the room, because we do couples counseling, we do individual sessions as well, and they'll say to me, no, really, once a week is fine. Like, don't keep saying that, once a week is fine. Like, I'm fine with once a week. I'm not where I used to be. I got a refractory period. I'm real fine with once a week. That's when I can perform well. So not every 50-year-old guy again is taking testosterone or whatever. So once a week for 50 is not— on the internet, who's gonna come in and say it? They'll be like, oh yeah, I wanna screw her 7 times a day, you know. But that isn't real.

The vocal minority, as we say. They don't represent the—

what explains the promiscuity that happens in nursing homes? STDs are actually a problem. Yes, that is true. But, um, promiscuity, like, if That, that could mean anything for anybody. That doesn't mean that every 80-year-old man in a nursing home is screwing 3 women a day, you know. I mean, promiscuity at the age of 80 or 90 could be very, very different from what it looks like for a 20-year-old.

I put, uh, I put Scott's comment up here on the screen. Uh, what are your opinions on what activities are the most productive for continually developing of emotional maturity, especially in middle age? What activities are the most productive?

This is Scott Gordon.

No, Morales.

Us? Oh, um, well, therapy is really good, uh, obviously reading books, any sort of self-development. He's talking about developing emotional intelligence, emotional maturity.

So I guess you could say either way. But, you know, my question, Scott, as a follow-up, is as a couple or as an individual is my question. I'm not sure what, uh, what you're thinking there, Scott. Maybe you could expand on that if you're still with us.

I think any life activity, if it's emotional maturity, I would assume that it's an individual, you know. Um, who knows?

Individually, so individually, he says. You know what's interesting, Scott just recently came back from his first international trip. We had our, uh, Scott is in our, is a coach in our DSO fraternity, and they had their second annual gathering in Australia. And Scott went to his first international trip, and his first international trip was all the way to Australia. And he had quite the emotional experience, and he was very open of like, oh my gosh, looking how other people in the world live and seeing the different cultures and everything. That's a perfect example of growing yourself maturity-wise and emotionally and so forth, is just seeing all these diverse experiences and speaking to so many different people from different backgrounds. That's personally how I grow. That's—

yeah. I mean, I think that emotional maturity— like, you got to get out there, do different kinds of things, grow as a person. That's why therapy can be transformative, because you're being pushed in different ways, think about things differently. Of course, if it's just you sitting there like, you know, verbally masturbating and somebody just saying, oh, poor you, then that's not going to help you. But any sort of therapy that can challenge you, any sort of coaching that can challenge you, and really just focusing on your life, your kids, your career, all of these things. I think, you know, what doesn't emotionally challenge people is just kind of sitting around and complaining. That is a way to not be emotionally mature, is to sit around and complain about your marriage, your sex life, or whatever, and do nothing about it. That is a way to stay the same.

I don't know if you see Brent's, uh, I put it up on the screen. I understand responsive desire, but at what point do you stop initiating? And if you're not sensing that your spouse prioritizes intimacy. 38-year-old male, her— she's 32. Body image issues, that's huge for women. Uh, once a month right now, and it was every day during the honeymoon phase. Well, of course, um, getting married marked the drastic drop. Um, that, that's the unfortunate— and you have alluded to this in some of your, uh, in your writings and in your videos as well, as I have as well— is this un— um, unromantic, unfortunate, but very real phenomena is once you get to that point of certainty, comfort, stability, safety, that super erotic, holy shit, honeymoon, we can't keep our hands off of each other phase for some people becomes like an abrupt, er, done, and it just goes down the toilet. It's over. Well, some people it's just gradual, but it's still— that's the point of delineation there.

Yeah, but when was the honeymoon stage, Brent? Because, uh, that is a large drop for a young woman. I mean, that is not what we usually see. Once a month is a sexless marriage. I don't know. I mean, obviously you're only given one comment here, but if we were in an intake session, I would want to know a hell of a lot more about that because that is really drastic. So either we're talking about by every day it was like he rolled on top of her for 2 minutes and she withstood it, and like everybody's like drunk on new love so he's forgetting that part. But I can hear you just fine, Ralph. But Judy really wants to hear you. Judy's your number one fan. I asked in my Facebook group, I said, who's the person that is your number one fan on earth? It's Judy for you, Ralph. But, but, um, the point is, Brent, um, the point is like what happened? Like some— it wasn't just monogamy. It is not that, that drastic usually. Maybe there's like childhood trauma thing going on with your wife that came out. Maybe she really was not very responsive during the honeymoon phase at all. 9 months is very short, Brent, very short. Do you mean to say that you married her after knowing her for 9 months, Brent? Were you shipping out? That was not a good idea. I know you're there now, but you know, don't do that in your next life. So honey, so honeymoon stage usually lasts 18 months to 3 years. That's long enough basically biologically to meet a man, get pregnant, make a baby, and wean the baby, and then you could move on. 9 months, that's very, very short. I want to know so much more, Brent. I mean, but that is very unusual. I also want to know if you have children or if you could, you know—

let me, let me interject. You say that's highly unusual? I hear that all the time. A very, very short honeymoon phase. I hear that all the time. I think a lot of middle America, which I don't necessarily know if you interact with much. I talked to a lot of Mormons and guys from very religious conservative backgrounds, and it's not unusual to hear a few short months and boom, we got to get married.

Purity culture people, this would be usual, but they're fucked a lot with— not really, but you know, they are in every way not going to do so well. They were not set up to do well. Very sexist. Sex-negative culture. The women are taught to be ashamed of their bodies. I mean, there's a lot of shit going on there. So this is a purity culture situation, then.

Uh, yeah, we also, we also have the, the culture, for lack of a better word, of people who, um, get very highly attached to the other person very, very quickly. Um, childhood trauma on her end.

Yeah, I was going to say, yeah, I have posts, Brent, on sex trauma and childhood that you should be looking up that I could send you if you email me. But anyway, continue, Ralph Brewer.

I was gonna say, I have seen a— you know, after doing this for so long, you start hearing the same story again and again, and you can categorize them. One category is, I married a woman, and we were very hypersexual in the dating phase. She has a history of sexual trauma in her background, probably way more promiscuous than I was at a young age, a lot of sexual partners in the past. And as soon as, as soon as there was a semblance of of monogamy, safety, security, just you and me, let's move in together, or she got pregnant, something psychologically happens in the woman. And she's just like, I am no longer a sexual creature. Without that, without that, you know, that the dating phase, the uncertainty and the anxiety of all that new relationship, I just shut down. That's one way to interpret it.

Well, also, this woman had childhood trauma, then you're taught that you are, that you have to give sex in order for men to love you, and that's just how it goes. And once you have them, then you feel the security and you move forward into the mother role, you know. And you then become— many of these women then become obsessed, you know, and you could understand why, with giving the children the childhood, the protected, safe, idyllic childhood that they never had. At that point, they just view themselves as basically a, a vessel of life and a conduit to give the children everything children ever want is that the children don't have such a shitty, horrible, traumatic childhood. So yeah, with the childhood sexual trauma, or any trauma, childhood abuse of any sort, it's very, very hard then for people to give and take intimacy, and correctly so. I mean, they were taught that the world is a terrible and dangerous place. So that is a really important variable, Brent, and you need to get into couples counseling, and she needs to be speaking with somebody individual about her childhood sexual trauma. Because this is not going to go away, you know.

And, uh, not to sound too flippant, but, uh, the infidelity on the part of the wife in those type of circumstances, I would think, would be higher than the general population on average, simply because of their past trauma. And in their— in their—

you'll learn that that's all of how you can interact with men. I work with little girls who are sexually abused, and when they go to foster homes, they start being flirtatious with the new foster father. Yeah, because they think that's the— that's what you're supposed to do. It's very sad. Little boys do it too, you know, but you could see it more with little girls because there's that whole like, um, like little like daddy's girl sort of thing. And then, but they just think that that's supposed to be like a sexual thing. It's like the saddest thing. So a little girl who is abused, then when she meets a man who's in love with her, she thinks that's what I do. I use my body. I let him use my body how he wants.

Once.

But then when she becomes a mother, her entire life becomes around, that will never happen again to my children, this is not who I am, I am a mother, and I am kind of going to make my kids happy and healthy. And then she doesn't want sex. She never liked sex anyway. That— the ability to like sex was stolen from her by this abuse.

Until— but also what coincides with all of that is a lack of boundaries. And if that woman puts herself in a position of getting attention from others, uh-oh, it's over. And this is where these guys are like, I have this sexless wife who all she cares about is kids, yada yada yada. And I got a hold of her phone one day and I couldn't believe what I was looking at. It was just text message after text message to all these men. And it's like, yeah, dude, she has a very real problem. She needs help. And she's been needing help for the past so many years. And until she raises her hand and said, I need help with this, I got a problem. It's not going to get any better.

Yeah, it's a very sad situation. And a lot of these guys marry women expecting to sweep in and be the knight in shining armor that rescues her. And there was red flag after red flag— terrible family problems, often drug addiction, alcohol addiction, they have no job, eating problems, all sorts of, uh, interpersonal problems, burning bridges with friends. And the guy thinks somehow it'll all be better when he comes and loves her the right way. There's extreme mental illness, and he's an extreme enabler. And, you know, these situations are very, very dysfunctional.

I'm going to put Rita's comment up here on the screen. I married my first husband for the wrong reasons. No attraction. Pardon me, my voice is going. I wonder how many men, or how many do this. Sex was okay, and then it was just a chore. Rita's pointing to something which is I was going to say the number one fear. That's not necessarily fair. It is a giant fear of a lot of men, is that my wife settled for me. She never really was all that into me, but she liked my paycheck, or maybe she liked my nice guy ways or whatever. But as far as, you know, really getting her going, I've never really seen that. And Rita is exemplifying this. I was with him for all the wrong reasons. Well then, Rita, I guess the follow-up to that is Why were you with the man? Because he was a good provider? Did you feel forced into it? Did you feel it was the right thing to do?

That kind of thing is very big.

Say again?

To think that the guy's going to be a good dad, especially if you grew up in a dysfunctional family yourself. I have an article on that. When you don't love the person as a partner, but you think that they'll be a good parent, and that that's really all that you expect in the world. You know, and that's what you want to do is like make your kids happy if you can't be happy. But is Rita continuing to tell us? Because I don't see Rita's comments.

No. But then also a lot of women and men hear this as well, which is if you, especially women, given the biological imperative to make some babies and time running out, it's like, honey, you're not getting any younger. You need to stop, you know, looking for Mr. Loverboy and just settle for Bob over there. He's nice enough. He'll make a good husband. He'll make a good father. He loves you to death, just settle for Bob. Okay, and no, no person wants to be Bob in that scenario. No man does. But I think it's relatively common.

Yeah, and Rita says she married him because he was a father figure. I see. And that probably means that Rita had a difficult childhood where she didn't have an actual father figure. So then he comes in, seems very loving and caring. And a lot of men, they, they really truly do not understand how sex drive works for women and libido and, and sex sexual self-knowledge. As a man, you basically know when you're turned on and when you're not. You know that you like sex in the large majority of cases, um, and women don't, you know. I mean, Rita here, you know, you may not— if, if like many women, she didn't really have super high sex drive anyway, she kind of maybe didn't know what all the fuss was about in various ways, you know. You meet somebody, you're not sure, you've never been one of those girls that really, you know, feels very passionately necessarily. And then as you get older, you know what, so then you get married, he's a nice guy, etc. And then as you get married and you're older, you start like kind of, you know, you read some things, you think about some things, you gain some confidence, you have some girlfriends, and maybe, you know, you try to kind of have some sort of a self-awareness about sex. You maybe explore your body, like, etc., etc. And then you're like, oh, I see, you know. Yeah, see, she was very young. She had no father, very young, wanted somebody to rescue her. So that's what she thought love was. That's what the fairy tale is, you know. I mean, and so in that situation, there's nobody's at fault, you know. Rita's not to blame, the guy's not to blame, nobody's to blame. Sometimes in those situations, people can change how they feel about somebody through therapy and through basically, uh, basically radical acceptance and empathy, but frequently those just turn into your first marriage and you move on to your second marriage. You know, that's the truth.

It's that, uh, the age-old dilemma of, uh, how do you marry the two, where I'm, I'm so sexually or emotionally, however you want to frame it, connected to this human being, yet at the same time it's important that I find somebody that will be a good partner to go through life with. And if you're, if you're a man or a woman that you're like like, man, I just have this conga line of people in my wake, and they were all various degrees of losers. A woman may say, not the most ambitious guys in the world, just underemployed, and yet— but man, they were fun, man, they were sexy, and man, they really got me going. What is it about me that seems to be attracted to these men? And then men are like, all these dumb bimbos, they were really great in the sack and all this other stuff, but I couldn't hold a conversation with them, and I got tired of them after about a and so, so there's a lot of introspection you need to— what is it that brings you to that point? And why are you attracted to those people? And how can you marry your, your love for the exciting versus along with your, your need for the stability? That's tough on both sides. Vance says, it's kind of shallow, but I tell college guys I work with to only date girls who have a good relationship with dad. That's, that's a very old, old-timey—

Yeah, I would add to that, Vance. It's not a bad idea, but you know, also, I mean, not everybody's gonna even have a dad or have a good relationship, but what you do want is somebody who either has a good relationship with their father— and I'll— there's a caveat there too— but, or somebody who like understands that they don't have a good relationship with their parents and therefore is in therapy to understand themselves and work on it. I mean, that That could be even more important because I'll tell you something else, fans, and I have a podcast about this, is when women put their father on a pedestal, sometimes the husband can never compete. I work with a lot of guys like that, that they're like, oh, because she's going to Home Depot with her dad because her dad knows how to pick out the fucking crown molding better than I do, I guess. Guess who she calls when she gets into a car accident? Her dad. She's 47, you know. So like, you also don't— basically, you want somebody with some self-awareness, which good luck in college age, but there's a whole normal distribution, and there are some people who care about learning about themselves more than others at any age. And you want somebody who can look in at themselves and their family with some level of objectivity. You don't want the girl who hates her parents and won't think about it, and you don't want the girl who idealizes her parents and won't think about it. You know, you generally want somebody who can see some— some level of self-awareness. So maybe that's why people shouldn't, you know, get married right out of college, quite honestly.

Do you work from home? Scott Gordon is asking how you deal with the home office. I never thought about it.

I'm in the basement, my basement. This is my basement.

Me too.

Ah, good. And so no, I don't have any soundproofing. I— they, they aren't here. I mean, they— my kids go to camp. They don't just sit around. I only work between like 9 and 3 because I don't, I don't work when they're home. I want to be around with them when they're home. So they're never here. But if they are like sick or something, which is, you know, there's also my ex-husband as well, so they could go over there because he does not have a job that is HIPAA compliant where people can't hear things. But, um, no, like, they, they know to stay upstairs. I mean, it's pretty obvious they don't want to hear me talk about sex with people any more than I want to hear them hear that. So, you know, it's like we're all on the same page with that. But yeah, could be different.

Calling out Zoe here. Zoe left a partial comment. Zoe, I don't know if you meant to do that or not, but You said, "How does a two-parent?" and nothing. So maybe you want to add on to that.

Yeah, how does a two-parent household something something? But anyway, yeah, anybody can ask any more questions too.

Do you have a time you need to run out of here by?

I don't know. I had assumed we would do about an hour, but if it's really, like, super fun, we could stay.

Of course. I'm going through the Questions here to see if we missed some. Scroll, scroll, scroll. David Buss is 70 years old.

There you go.

I thought he was older than that. 70.

I did a whole thing on David Buss and a mate selection paper getting my doctorate for one of my classes. Um, well, you know, like the variables that go into mate selection for men and women. But it was so long ago, so I don't really remember. Oh, my spouse is a police officer. Any advice on that? This is the one that won't screw you. Hold on, let me— is that you, Brent? Um, yeah, it is. So yes, so man, you could be a fucking case study, right? So she got abused as a kid, then literally she goes into a career where she could protect people. So you got two things going on. A, she's like superhero, like I want to basically save everybody from any sort of abuse like what I went through. That's you, man. And, uh, number 2, basically you getting laid looks like so stupid and shallow next to the shit that she deals with all the time. You know, like there's like people who are like, like, you know, just like possibly like, you know, her life could be under threat. So I see this happen with anybody who deals with life or death situations in their job. Like you get home and you're like, 'Oh, you want a blowjob? That's funny because today I helped a child dying of cancer.' You know, so like in these life and death sort of careers, it can be really difficult for people to code switch and to not get, A, burned out, and B, just to think that like kind of having like some sort of like fun sex life is just stupid and shallow. And I see this with men too. Like as much as men have like, you know, um, a higher sex drive, it's like about date night. They're like, 'Oh, you want date night? Well, today I had to lay off 40 people.' You know, so like maybe you could just calm down. You know, like people who have these sorts of super stressful jobs is really not conducive frequently to being an empathic partner.

There is also the issue of she is in what we would call a pretty hyper-masculine profession. She's surrounded— she is surrounded by a lot of men. There's also the military. They're very similar, the police. Military. Um, anyone— my father was military for as a career, and I know a lot of military people, and what they will tell you is, um, oh my gosh, is there a lot of screwing around going on in the military. I had an ex-brother-in-law who was Army who told me literally every female in his— whatever the group they called it— he said was screwing around with every other guy. And it seems like, um, I'm making a lot of big assumptions here, or generalities. Does that in fact tend to attract a certain type of woman to that profession or that career that is more apt to want attention from other men in that way? I don't know. It seems that way. I don't know if anybody's done any kind of study on that, or what kind of women does that seem to attract. But, you know, I don't know, Brent. It's— you're adding to the pile of uh-oh stuff here. And, um, when I heard—

Brent, you have children?

Yeah, Brent, are there kids in the mix?

Yeah, are there kids in the mix? Because Dad's starting over and I are both crossing our fingers you're gonna say no, man, I'll tell you that. But I mean, maybe, maybe it's yes. I'm kind of hoping it's no because then you might, you know, if this didn't work out, be a lot easier for you.

But, uh, while we wait, Zoe says, how does a two- parent household, father who works all the time and he misses the events, and then you have the stay-at-home mother who takes care of the house. How does that create family or intimacy issues?

Brent, hold up, I'll get back.

Brent, Brent, I saw the same thing.

Oh shit, Brent, Brent, Brent. So wait, she was married before too? You left that out too, Brent. Oh my God. So listen, Brent, she was not a young girl. She met you during the honeymoon stage. I don't know what happened. So, so this is not what we were opining about. This was not the young Mormon. She was previously married. So, so she kind of maybe is what she is. And I don't know what happened during that courtship. I don't know how you met. I don't know any of this. We gotta figure it out, Brent.

She was a very, very young mother. Probably, I'm going to make assumptions here. Here goes based on my past, based on the guys I've spoken to, very young mother who was fresh out of her relationship with a little one and she needed somebody to step in and rescue. And she's—

Then we get 9 months of fucking and then they're married and then they pop them out. She goes back on the road as a, you know, back to her day job. Yo, Brent, you're left holding the bag, my friend. And that's not to say that you're a perfect person, because you're probably annoying in all sorts of ways too, you know. Like, it is— there's no victimless, you know, that this is not a thing. I'm not staying like, oh shit, terrible, and you're like so wonderful. But what I can best say, Brent, is you guys got to get yourselves into couples counseling, but basically, you know, years ago. But with the second best option being very soon. So that's what I hope for you, Brent. All right, let's move on to Zoe.

So back to Zoe, uh, two-parent household. Well, I mean, he's talking about something which is almost like— it's not the default, but this is so common it's not even funny. I work so much, I'm the man, I miss events, I don't even know what my kids' teachers' names are, I, I— what grade is my— I don't know what grade my kids in, I have to stop and think about it for 5 minutes. They're just not involved in that of the world. So how does that affect the family or intimacy issues?

Well, it makes a woman very mad, I'll tell you that.

Of course, sure. Yeah, yeah.

And that is not good for intimacy issues. This is why I always say the guy's got to get to this shit. He's got to come home from work. If she feels like basically a married single mom, then she's gonna have the sex life of that, which is to say none, you know, because she's not— she doesn't— she doesn't even listen. Women's libido during the day is zero anyway, most of the time, from what I've described. So she's got to be in a happy, loving, team-oriented place to try to get herself in the mood. If she feels like, where the hell is he? Why does he prioritize this shit over our family? Then she's not gonna feel in that lovey-dovey of a mood. Then again, Then again, what about— does she need the money of the household? Does she talk it out of both sides of her mouth? You know, because if she wants a certain lifestyle and certain home renovations that has a certain mortgage on a certain house, then he's running scared all the time, as possibly, you know, feeling always like, how's he— how's he gonna make it work and make her happy? So then he feels caught between a rock and a hard place. So it's a very complex situation.

And then I mentioned this in a video of, uh, the dynamic of I'm this guy and I'm hyper successful at work and I get all these accolades and everything at work and it makes me feel great. And then as soon as I walk in the door, it's, you didn't do this, you didn't do that, I bet you don't even know your kids' teachers' names, do you? You're terrible. And he's just like, I feel awful now. Goes back to work, yay, I feel great again. Comes back home, you're terrible, you're terrible. So eventually it's going to be, honey, I got to stay a couple more hours at work, uh, got a project I need to catch up on, on a— say, after the kids go to bed. And that just furthers the divide because he's just gravitating towards where— what rewards him and what makes him feel good. Yeah, Jason says exactly. Yeah, I put that video out and like millions of guys got on there saying, oh my God, that's my life. It's unfortunate, but yeah, pretty common.

And it's common with working mothers too, honestly. Everybody gets more accolades at work than they do at home.

Well, because work needs them to create more output and more production to make more money. So we want to have him. This is one of those rare guys that actually produces those pretty rare commodity, and we'll pay him handsomely and reward him and pat him on the back and give him bonuses, whatever it is to keep him working.

It's more rewarding to be at work in that regard than it is to be home with kids, because kids don't ever say like, oh, good job, Mom, you fed us, you know?

Yeah. Yeah.

So, okay.

So Zoe says feels accomplished everywhere but home. Yeah, I don't even want to go home most days, Jason says. Get that all the time. Yeah, very, very common. I think if it's— what's sad is that I would tell women in that— women or men in that regard, let's just stick with the woman for now. You're the at-home woman or the lesser employed woman in that regard, and the man's been gone for so long, it doesn't kill you when the guy steps in the door to say, What happened? Tell me about your day. Um, whoa, that's cool. You got to be proud of yourself for that. Good job. By the way, would you mind taking the trash out? You forgot yesterday. I just saw— I just softened the blow there, but it's the same thing as opposed to what he walks in and go, honey, I'm home, trash. Okay, great.

That's—

I just—

yeah, it's totally real. And there's so many different variables for it. And men are just as guilty of not coming in and being like, like, wow, you did such a good job with the kids today, sweetheart. You know, there's so many guys who are like, why does it look like this? What happened? Did you even leave today? Wait, we got takeout again? What? Like, what's that on the couch? You know, and it's, it's just that's how people are. They're stressed out and the spouse gets their worst. Sometimes couples counseling can slow that down so that you're speaking more intentionally and mindfully versus just fucking opening up and unloading on your spouse due to the fact that you're stressed out. Oh, here's Zoe. Well, Zoe, a lot of people in that dynamic, the kids that see the dynamic of the stay-at-home mom and the, um, you know, working dad, they get into the same dynamic. And a lot of them say, fuck that, I'm never going to be in that dynamic, we're going to be two working people and outsource a lot of the help because mom was always so stressed and dad wasn't around. You know, I mean, it's, it's so dependent, but it can affect the kids in a million different ways based on who the kids are, their temperament, and what they resolve. You know, to do about that.

And then Jason points out an interesting thing. He says that, uh, when he's at work, the wife calls him and she's all loving on the phone, but as soon as he walks in, it's a different human being.

Yeah, well, that's because I tell all y'all that testosterone peaks at 6 AM and it's at its lowest at 6 PM. And that's why I tell guys, try to work from home, because they also say this about, you know, sex. She's— she is in the mood during the kids' naps, but she's not in the mood at like 9:30 at night. She's only in the mood to sleep. And she's happy with you during the day because everything's going well, but women get very tired, very biologically more tired. Women are more tired by 6 PM than men are. That's just real, you know, this is a testosterone thing or something. And yeah, by the time you walk in, she's running on fumes. She doesn't want to have sex with you. She doesn't even want to look at you. She begrudges you the fact that you got the accolades at work all day. She feels sticky and disgusting and fat and bloated, and she's just really just not feeling it, Jason. So try to get home for nap time, you know, do that.

You know, on that note, here's an interesting phenomenon I see is, uh, the guy who for whatever reason usually temporarily has to be a stay-at-home dad, like he's in between jobs or he's waiting on some whatever, laid off, whatever it may be, um, a lot of men do very well at the stay-at-home dad thing thing. And they turn it into like very military fashion of, you know, they're very regimented. And the men seem to be, much to the chagrin of the wife, less affected emotionally, anxiety-wise, by all the struggle of that. So she comes home and she sees the guys like, "This is awesome. You know, I was done by 11 AM and I was able to go change oil in the car. This is great. Me and the kids had a blast." And she feels like a little jealous. A little angry, a little this and that. And men kind of use that as kind of a badge of honor of like, "Haha, all you ladies complaining about all this work all day long. Look at me, I was able to get it done and still have a smile on my face, and I'm still ready to go to the gym and all this other stuff. So what are you complaining about?" Well, women have more propensity towards anxiety and depression and stress. And, you know, the personality trait of neuroticism tends to be higher in women and so forth. We're just wired differently. And so maybe men are more regimented and they're able to handle that stress more so than women. Does that point to women are, are weaker? Haha, men rule. Or is it just we need to adjust the way women do things? And maybe when the man gets home, he goes, wife, beat it, get out, you go do something, take care of yourself, I got the kiddos, you've been in here long enough.

The thing with the stay-at-home parent is stressful, you know. I mean, anybody being a stay-at-home parent, because you're so different You know, I mean, it's— and, uh, any parent that's at home with the kids is not getting a paycheck. They feel, you know, I mean, those guys may feel great and regimented and whatever, but they also feel a little insecure, like, what is she doing about me not working? You know, what, what about when she gets accolades at work and I don't? So, like, and that's the same for obviously stay-at-home women. I mean, they're, they're more— I see some guys react like that, but I also see some stay-at-home dads depressed. They have no meaning in their life. Everything was about career before. Now they're taking a back seat. There's not other stay-at-home dads at the playground in the same way, and they're scared that their wife is looking down on them. I think being a stay-at-home parent, it's hard because it really— it exacerbates the existing differences between the two people when one works and one doesn't, you know. Like, that's a big thing to bond over, is like, what did you do today at work? And if it's like super different, then, you know, you can't really understand each other as well. When people remarry, like when men who had to stay stay-at-home wife remarry, I usually see them remarry working women, and frequently women that they even met at work, because like they truly understand each other differently.

We talked about this before in a previous chat that the rate of infidelity amongst men is higher if they are a stay-at-home father. I thought that was interesting statistic. I think the thinking being—

the show that they are still a man, and what better way to prove my masculinity by going around screwing around. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I see, Scott. That's what I see is that most stay-at-home men feel emasculated because they're like, um, maybe she says this is okay. And quite honestly, many women say it's okay, but it's not. Yeah, you know, they are jealous. They do wish that if they won the lottery, they would be at home with the kids, you know.

And this, this, uh, this is put right in the man's face when they're in some kind of social interaction like the company Christmas party at his wife's work. And they're all standing around with drinks and they go, so Mr. So-and-so, what do you do for work?

Yeah, women hate that. Imagine that, you know.

And well, but then he notices the wife kind of walking away. She doesn't want to be there for that conversation because she's kind of embarrassed that I don't work, I stay home with the kids.

Ah, yeah, I've seen a few primary breadwinner— not, not primary, sole breadwinner mothers, because there's more and more primary breadwinner, and that, that is getting to be more— that's actually close to half now. You know, of women are the primary, but the soul is still different. And I've seen a lot of women who actually had their husbands stay home with the kids because they had the bigger earning potential, right? They were a doctor, lawyer, whatever, and the guy wasn't. And they resent it. They go back and they're like, why didn't I get that time with the children? He got that time and I didn't, and I can never get that time back.

Yep. It's not politically correct thing to say, but that is, I would say, more often than not, that's the case.

I would have been mad as hell if I didn't get that time. Like, I was part-time till they were in school, you know. And I mean, I made my— I was part-time during the day, so then I would do this crazy shit where I'd like work as soon as they went to sleep. I'd see clients till like 10:30, stupid crazy stuff. But if I hadn't gotten that time to do, you know, all the little activities that take them to baby swim, and, you know, babies don't need to learn how to swim, but, you know, you do that when you're a first-time mom. And like, you know, you do— I, I would have been so mad. I can't even imagine and how mad I would have felt if my husband had been doing it and I couldn't do it, you know. And it's— some of these women make their own grave because they don't have the self-assertion skills to say, no, that isn't an option. I will hate you if we do that. Instead, they don't want to be un-PC, so they say, oh well, yeah, I guess that makes a lot of sense. I do have a higher earning potential than you, and I'll be so glad when you have that quality time with Madison. No, they're thinking, fuck you, why are we having this conversation? You just put me in an impossible situation. I don't want you to do that. I want you to get a higher earning job than me, in fact.

You know, I hear you. I agree.

All right, we coming? We'll do one more question. One more.

Let's wrap it up. Anybody else want to, uh, I see comments but not necessarily questions here.

Ryan, we missed.

Why do we feel we're responsible for our spouse's happiness?

Ryan, this is such a big question, but I will really try. You want me to try, or you want to try?

Please go ahead.

Sure. Um, all right, so what's your name again? Somebody else come— Ryan. Um, so Ryan, the reason we— if he's even here still— the reason we feel responsible for us— we aren't. First of all, everybody doesn't feel like that, Ryan. The people that come on to these chats, as attractive as Dad Starting Over and I am, it is mostly not uniform like like everybody wants to listen, but rather the preoccupied attachment people want to listen. The people who struggle with feeling they are responsible for our spouse's happiness, which are the exact same people who generally are the initiator of couples counseling and read the books and read the Dead Bedroom Fix out on Amazon and all of these other things, right? So these are the people watching. So everybody doesn't feel responsible for our spouse's happiness. But Ryan, I would be willing to bet dollars to donuts that you grew up in a house where a parent had a problem of some sort, whether that was a depressed mom or a dad with a drinking problem, or somebody was angry, or somebody was sad, or whatever, more than normal. And you saw the other parent, or you as a parentified child, had to come in and always help that person and get into this kind of, um, codependent role where you felt responsible for somebody else's happiness. Or you saw that one parent was responsible for the other parent's happiness. And those are the people who feel that way, because I'll tell you something, Ryan, avoidant people like I would imagine your wife or your ex-wife did not feel responsible for your happiness even remotely and could have stood to feel more responsible for your happiness. Ideally, in a securely attached situation, people feel that they could contribute to their spouse's happiness but that they are really not responsible for it. They can help, but they are I'm solely responsible for it in the way that the preoccupied attachment following of both Dad starting over and myself feel. And therapy can help, Ryan, with that if I hit on any nail on the head with how you grew up.

Bingo. There you go. Why do you feel that way? Well, it could be a myriad of reasons, but I tell you, Ryan, you shouldn't feel that way. You are not responsible for their happiness. And if you get caught in that little storm of emotion there. You'll never get out of it. You'll often hear the guys like, no matter what I do, she's never happy. Well, who the hell told you that it was up to you to make her happy, right?

And it's like, she wouldn't be happy with the next guy either. She wasn't happy with the previous guy. She wasn't a happy child. In fact, she's told you all this stuff, but yet somehow you thought that she would be happy with you. That is a fool's errand.

You got— yeah, well, guys, it is— it's been over an hour. Let's wrap her up.

Yes, thank you. Thanks for hosting.

Yes, thank you so much. Let's do it again. We should do this.

Yeah, we will do it again. And I am going to also be talking to you about anxiety at some point, right?

Yes, we're going to— that will not be a live thing. That'll just be you and I, and it will be part of my new anxiety course coming up.

Wow, that's cool.

Great.

Yeah. What is it? Yeah. All right, I'll talk to you soon. Thanks, everybody, for asking questions. Bye, everybody. And everybody else. See ya.