Live Chat With DSO and @drpsychmom

All right, we are going live to Facebook, YouTube, and Twitter all at the same time. Wow, cool!

Are we—

well, let's see. I'm refreshing Facebook as we speak, and oh, I don't see it yet. Do I have an error? Let's see if I have an error. Hmm, no, I don't see— I don't see any errors on my end. Let me refresh again.

I'm sure there's errors on my end somehow.

Yay, we're on. We are live.

Oh, good.

No snags, no nothing.

Cool.

Let me bring up my comments window here so we can follow along with people's comments. Good. Maybe, maybe, maybe. All right. You know what I'm going to have to do? Have you seen this yet?

What is it? Oh, I have. I'm actually going to need to do that. I can't see anymore either.

It's bad. It's like bad, bad. It's just like that too. So the old macular degeneration. We're not getting any younger.

How old are you?

Don't worry about it. Is that important? How old are you?

I'm 42 and I'm—

Well, I'm older than you. I'm 48. 48 years of age.

Man, you women just desiccate faster than or something. Oh, you're older.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right. Well, welcome everyone. Whoever is online joining us so far, not many. Give it a second. Um, for those that don't know, I'll introduce myself first. I am Ralph, Raffalito, AKA DSO from dadstartingover.com. I'm the bald dude that's in all the videos and stuff. That's how people are knowing me now is bald dude on videos. That's cool. Because I put out a lot of these. I've had one hit the 5 million mark. How about you, Samantha? Have you had a 5 million video yet? No.

Well, I don't have anything looked at that much. No way.

Well, you just have to say something controversial.

Yeah, I know. Yeah, I don't like to get— the stuff I would— all this stuff is like about blowjobs. You talk about blowjobs, then you get views. There's only so much I could talk about blowjobs, honestly.

That's true. That's true. Kind of a limited topic. Hello, I super enjoy your content, says Honey Armstrong. I love that name, Honey. Honey, is that your real name? Or is that a nickname? I've seen you a few times on here. And I always wondered.

Oh, I see comments. Somebody named Justin. So wait, this thing—

Justin says hello. Hello, Justin. Yeah, I— on my little main navigation screen, because I am the master of this meeting, I can see all the comments from everywhere. So far we only have the two, Justin and Miss Honey. So welcome everyone, welcome, welcome. You know, we have no plan for this, do we?

No, but, but I hope to say something interesting so that you can make a video out of it, because that is always helpful. For me. It's when you do the videos, because my videos are not as good as your videos. You got like something with the caption where like the words go in different colors. Pretty cool. I don't know how to do it.

It, uh, there are programs that do that for you. It's not like I sit here and type all that out. I just upload, it does its magic, done.

Program? I don't know any of it.

There is a, there is an app. There's an app for the phone, and its name is— are you ready for— if you— are you ready for this? Its name is Captions. Captions. If you go download captions, it will create captions for you.

Done.

You just, you just put there and you put it up there and upload from your phone and away you go. Pretty cool. Yeah. And the, the, the quick videos, way more views than the long videos. Like way, way more.

I see that. Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't have to say anything that— and then you make a little video about it.

Sub 1 minute. Yeah. Yeah. So what shall we talk about? What's new in your— well, Honey is just, uh, she says, I'll let you decide, LOL. Oh, Honey being all sassy. I do have a question. I recently left a narcissist ex and I went no contact. This is a question from Facebook. I have to narrate this for people that watch the video later because it looks like I'm talking to myself. A question from Honey from Facebook. I do have a question. I recently left a narcissist ex and I went no contact and now I am declared by him a covert narcissist, and I don't know how to deal with this. Samantha, how common is that for people to project?

Oh, that's funny. Yeah, I mean, narcissists tend to marry narcissists, so overt, covert, it's kind of all the same thing. Dramatic people are drawn to dramatic people, so y'all both probably have a dog in this fight, and I would just let it go, you know? I mean, there's There's a lot of evidence that, you know, it's not like a dramatic person is drawn to just some, some pure saint. That just is not how things go. So I would just try to leave this in the past. Therapy can help you recover and get right back on the dating market, hopefully in a healthier sort of way to attract healthier sort of people. And I do wish you the best with that.

Here's what I say to that, honey, in a very non-clinical, smart point of view. Um, if he is in fact, by your determination, a narcissist person, then who gives a fuck what he has to say? He could say you're an alien from Mars, you just let it go in one ear and out the other.

You're just like, okay, well, Gray Rock, there's a way to deal with difficult people by just being bland and whatever. I guess the theme for this live stream is anything. That's the theme. Anything you want it to be.

It's Yeah, Chris is like, is there a theme for this? No.

Chris is like, why am I here? What is this?

Yeah, give me something here, people. Sorry, this is just two yahoos yapping away with an hour to spare here in the middle of the day, live on the internet for all to see. And, uh, let me go. I'd like to hear it.

I feel young when I'm the one who reads it because I can still do it for another few months probably. So I'd like to hear y'all's thoughts on how avoidants treat the kids and pets. Oh, I got good, good stuff on this. And how that could give hope to their partner that they can work on that with respect to the marriage. I have a post or a podcast on that. It's Watch Out for How the Avoidant Person Treats Kids before concluding that they could change more for you. Because avoidant or anxious or depressed or addicted or any type— or personality disordered people they love the kids and the pets the most, right? They love them more than you. I'm sure you feel that. So if they can't even really be that nice to the kids or the pets, what hope is there, right? So there's a lot of people who are like, well, now that I think about it, my wife really loves the kids, but she can't get off the phone around them either. So like, she loves the kids, but she feels touched out and pulls away when they hug her also. So like, kind of what— like, my husband loves the kids, but he's an irritable bastard around them, like whatever. Like, if that's as good as it gets, then that's as good as it gets. But conversely, if they are much, much, much warmer to the kids and the pets than you, then it may in fact be a marriage issue versus an avoidant attachment issue. What do you think, Ralph?

Well, this, um, a big picture comment on this is, is it just me, Samantha, or is everyone talking about attachment right now?

Oh yeah, it's, it's hot. It's hot right now. Attachment is hot.

Where'd that come from? Because I don't know.

Oh, there's a book, Attached, by Amir Levine that came out like 5+ years ago. And then there was even a New York Times article on how people are loving that book. And I felt like so validated because I had just recommended it to a client. Attachment theory was around from like the '70s or earlier. We studied it as part of developmental psych, but it didn't hit the mainstream until very, very recently. People love personality testing, and it's just hot right now, just like narcissism and toxic and gaslighting and like all that stuff. So totally, attachment style is everything right now.

There is a, there's a gentleman, I don't know if you've run into him, I see him on social media and he's been on a couple of podcasts called Adam. His name is Adam Lane Smith, and he is a former psychotherapist, marriage counselor, and he decided he's going to focus on attachment And boom, he has blown up. He is just everywhere. And he's selling a course now for about $500 on attachment. And I'd love to have him on the podcast at some point 'cause he's really getting out there. But shows it's huge. People are identifying with it. They're like, hmm, something to this whole how I was raised as a kiddo determines my attachment to others in the future. How interesting.

Yeah, sure. And people are really into seeing it in their relationship and the patterns of pursuing and distancing. And that's what it is for a preoccupied avoidant relationship. The other term And, uh, you know, I mean, that's— there's also fearful avoidant when you've been abused. But, you know, I have podcasts on all this on the Dr. Psych Mom Show. Oh, you know, you introduced yourself but you didn't let me introduce myself.

Oh, that's right. Hold on a second, I'm getting interrupted here by my son trying to FaceTime me. Go away.

No.

How do I turn off?

Do not disturb.

There we go. Yeah, how do I turn that off?

Oh, Jonathan, can I read that one? I know him.

Please go ahead, take it away, Samantha.

And then we'll go back to you, we'll go back to you, James, in a second. Jonathan says, Samantha encourages men to invest in their home life, chores, parenting, and emotional couples life, romance, communication, making a deeper connection with their wives. How does this jibe with Esther Perel's and the manosphere's theory that intimacy and erotic energy are inversely correlated? Esther says the key to keeping the marriage sex life is more separation. Wanna do it first?

Interesting. Well, I mean, that's one way, I guess, of looking at it. This is— there, there is this grand theme dichotomy. I don't know what the, what the proper term is between the— what I use in my words, and I'm sure I didn't come up with this, maybe I totally I ripped this off from Esther, whoever, the domestic, the comfortable, the family, the all that stuff, and the erotic, the sexy, the fun. It's tough to put the two together and live in harmony with each other. And what Esther and the others have determined is, wow, it seems if you want to maintain, you can't unmesh the two. There has to be some little separation of the two to maintain both within a relationship. And I also say much the same thing Much of my, um, uh, what's the word, advice to men is predicated upon the fact that most of the men I talk to are very anxious in their attachment. There we go. And they're always chasing and pursuing and, and trying to go after a woman who has basically been like, can you just cool it already, dude? And so the prescription for those men is back the fuck off, dude. You're just— quit smothering and hanging all over your woman. Go do something. These men don't have much to do other than just with their wife and kids 24/7. So the prescription is. How about you become a more, quote, distant man? And that really triggers in these men, like, are you telling me to back away from the person I love more than anything and become a single man? No, it's called health— having healthy distance. So I can see where Esther comes up with much the same kind of prescription at a, at a grander scale, is that, um, I, I don't necessarily think she says intimacy and, and sexuality and romance can't cohabitate. I guess that begs the question of what's your definition of intimacy?

Here's the thing is like a lot of preoccupied attachment guys such as the ones that follow relationship people on the internet, so therefore inhabit most of the comment sections of both of our pages and whatever. They think that you are saying to act or I or anybody or Esther Perel is saying to act more like a jerk. But in reality, what we are advising is for them to act more like a securely attached person, like somebody who literally just has their own life, like, because they're a securely attached person and they don't invest 1,000% of their being into the outcome of the intimate relationship. And so that's not telling them to act avoidant. Avoidant guys don't do well. Like, avoidant guys are being dragged by their wives into couples counseling with me, and these women are begging the avoidant men to be more emotional and more expressive and to be around more and to interested and engaged and involved, and they genuinely want it. And when those guys can learn to themselves then act more secure— so they have to come here, and the preoccupied attachment people come here— the goal is for everybody to act more securely attached, which means that you have your own life but you are a loving and intimate partner. That is also how you create a securely attached adult, is by parenting a child in that way so that they're allowed to leave you and do their own thing, but then you're a secure base when they come back. And so that provides template for later secure attachment in adult intimate relationships. So nobody, Jonathan, or anybody else who's listening, is saying to act like a jerk or to specifically make up shit for you to go do that isn't real. It's saying like, don't you— can't you think of fulfilling things to do as an adult that don't involve following your wife around and asking if she's mad at you today? You know, and the answer should be yes. And if it's not, then therapy can help or coaching or whatever.

But to an anxious person, tiptoeing towards more secure behavior feels an awful lot like tiptoeing towards asshole behavior. And so it takes a lot of convincing to them, say it's okay to get out and do your own thing, it's okay to hang out with friends, it's okay to have a hobby, or in manly terms, a mission outside of the home. These things make you a more complete, healthy, mentally healthy human being. And like, but, but what if my partner thinks I'm cheating. That's a very, very common anxious man thing. I can't exercise, my partner will think I'm cheating. It's like, dude, exercise, it's for your health. God forbid you look good in the process. Well, yeah, but you don't know my wife. She'll think I can't do that. I need to figure out other ways to build attraction other than getting away from her. So to them, everything looks toxic.

Right, and in reality, those women are so relieved when the man leaves the house.

Yes.

You know, they finally get the house to themselves without him following her around. Asking what she's thinking and feeling, you know. And it's— they think then that that's proof that women are attracted to these elusive avoidant types. In reality, they're attracted to just a confident, kind person that sometimes, yes, does their own thing, you know, because that's what people do.

The mantra of the frustrated man in the dating world: it seems that all women love are Assholes. Only women like jerks.

Oh, sickening. That is so wrong.

What's up with that? And you look and you listen to them, you go, give me an example. And they tell me an example, and I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. Like, I'm waiting for the asshole behavior. I'm not hearing it yet. What are you talking about? Because this guy like took— like, she was complaining because the guy took a full 2 days to answer her back after they had a date. I was like, well, maybe the guy's away on a business trip. Maybe he's busy. Maybe he'll eventually get around to it.

Maybe Right, yep, exactly. That's the ones that they— but however, there are some guys that say, oh yeah, like, I know this girl that her ex-boyfriend used to, like, you know, beat the shit out of her and she would go back to him. And I'm like, that's an unhealthy person. That is— it was— she probably was abused as a child, poor thing, you know. That is not a normal reaction. If it's an abusive man and the woman is drawn to him, that's not who you're going to want to be the mother of your children, right? That's somebody struggling mightily with self-esteem and with a probably a history of childhood abuse herself. The— an average healthy woman does not want a jerk at all.

At all. And so what you're pointing to though is what I have seen from a lot of men, the pedestalization as we call it, of the female human.

It's—

they're all obviously beyond perfect, especially compared to us Neanderthal men. So when I see a woman do something that is innately unhealthy or toxic or whatever, she's attracted to a guy who's a raging asshole or whatever it may be, in that man's mind, that is such an anomaly. That is such a, oh, holy shit, I can't believe this woman actually has this kind of level of dysfunction that for some reason these men paint all women with that paintbrush. Well, there we go. Damn it, I was wrong. The women aren't saints after all. They're all just going after abusive shithead humans. It's a very weird little phenomenon that I see quite often.

Black and white thinking everywhere, all— especially all over the comment sections. Anybody who thinks enough about these things, you know, to be mean in a comment section is not really, you know, who you would put up as a paragon of mental health.

So a paragon of mental health, I'm going to use that one.

That's good. That's why I use the secret group. I have a paid group, even $4.99 a month, man. Really expensive.

That eliminates quite a bit, doesn't it? Yeah.

The level of dysfunction. Go back to the one before Jonathan Boutteau.

One moment, please. When a wife says— this is from James on Facebook— when a wife says that she has no desire for you, and no desire to have sex with you. Is there hope? Well, that's pretty blunt language, isn't it? I don't want you. I want nothing to do with you. Get the hell away from me. Not good, James, that's for sure. But there's schools of thought, one of which is, I guess you could construe it as somewhat belittling to women, which is, hey, women are somewhat emotional and they say some shit that they really don't mean sometimes if you catch them at the wrong time of the month, especially if you know what I mean. Wink wink. So just let it go in one ear, out the other. That's one way of interpreting it. The other one is, whoa, we got a serious freaking problem here. This is no bueno. What's going on here? Is— does she have a legitimate complaint? Like, am I physically not the greatest person in the world? Is my hygiene horrible? Do I treat her like shit? Do I— there could be— this is a multifaceted huge thing.

We need to know more about the story, James. We need to know if she said this to you screaming at you because she just found you, you know, on, uh, Ashley Madison, or because, you know, it was the day before her period and she found you on Ashley Madison, like, you don't know what was going on, you know? Or does she literally say, well, you know, it has been 10 years since we've been intimate and it's finally time for me to tell you I am never ever going to do this again, in case you thought that we were, you know? So there was a whole range, James. So just follow up, you know, we've got nothing but time here, so follow up.

That reminds— do you need to get out of here by a certain time? I want to make sure I'm conscious of your time here.

No, I got time. I mean, I can't imagine it's longer than an hour.

Hey, these things go by fast. Um, when we do our DSO fraternity meetings, it's 2 hours and it goes by like that because we just yap and yap. Men just love to talk.

Okay.

Um, okay, so let me go down here. Adnor from YouTube says, is there such a thing as an avoidant who is able to also maintain an active married sex life.

Yes.

Yeah, I would think this— you— I'm avoidant doesn't mean you have this and this is your, your, uh, these are the cards you've been dealt as far as your human behavior is concerned. Done. No, it's like on the spectrum.

Yes, I know a lot of avoid— are you talking about— I guess he's talking about a woman, like an avoidant wife, because avoidant men have sex constantly. But avoidant women can also have sex. They would rather have sex than look into each other's eyes and talk about that we love each other. You know. I mean, it may not be the most intimate sex in the world, but like an avoidant— avoidant is that you're avoidant of like intimacy. You don't want to need somebody, you know. You don't want to feel beholden to somebody. You're very self-reliant. But you could certainly have sex. Yes, they don't have anything to do with that until, you know, unless it did for you in your specific case, then you could certainly elaborate.

Be careful, Samantha, because you just separated real emotional intimacy from the act of sexual intercourse. I'm told by— well, I'm told by a lot of people that that's completely impossible. You have to have one or the other. Um, a common, uh, strike against a lot of men that are wanting more sexual intimacy from their wife is, well, you have not emotionally connected with me, that's why we're doing that. Until you figure out that secret combination of how to get into my head and connect, you know, with me, then we can't do that.

Yes, I am big on that. We can do that. I have a podcast that says what you can't always wait, and like, yes, you can have sex before you're feeling emotionally close, because remember, that is a way to feel emotionally close, like makeup sex, you know. I mean, there are ways for— and people don't seem to understand that it used to be before the current day and age, that people had sex in marriage. That was kind of how it went, you know. And maybe you're not feeling good about somebody that day, but you don't really just take sex off the table. Taking sex off the table in these high numbers has been a relatively recent phenomenon, especially given that nobody's supposed to cheat anymore. Because it used to be, if a woman didn't want to have sex anymore, then the guy would of course still have sex. I mean, he didn't go through menopause, you know, but like, it was kind of understood Now it's— and the guys are the ones too. Nobody wants— like, sometimes a woman will even be like, why don't you go get a girlfriend? And he'll be like, no, because he's got this storybook in his head about how it's always supposed to be her, even though she's 65 and he wants to have sex like 3 times a week. Like, oh my God, you know. But yeah, and I know your testosterone-fueled fans aren't gonna like that one, but I mean, that is just a lot, you know, for somebody who's postmenopausal. So, but the guy still doesn't want to get a girlfriend.

If you wanted your successful TikTok moment, you just did it right there. That segment right there, I'm going to cut that. Oh boy. Yep, there's a 5 million one right there. Do you find, do you find that you piss off a lot of ladies with a lot of stuff you say?

Yes, but it's so funny because so many guys tell me that I'm pissed that I'm a— I just got, um, what am I, andro— not an androgyne. What am I? Andro— misandrist. I'm a misandrist. I'm a misandrist, I'm telling women to have sex with their husbands. If I'm a misandrist, man, I mean, then I don't know who the hell is not, because then that's crazy. So yes, I find I piss off everybody. I'm equal opportunity. I piss off men and women. I think, like, in the same podcast, I'll piss off men and women. It's amazing. It's a skill.

All right, one of my favorites, Halal Young— is a young lady. I was corrected on my last last, uh, one I did of these. I wasn't sure if Halal was a young lady or a man, but Halal, young lady, thank you so much for joining us today. What does a healthy sex life look like? Well, I mean, that depends on who you ask, right?

Well, if she asks me, I have a podcast that's titled What Does a Healthy Sex Life Look Like? So you should look that up on the Dr. Psych Mom Show. What does a healthy sex life look like? But I'm sure we could just sit here and opine about it as well. So Ralph Brewer, what do you think? A healthy sex life looks like, or you want me to get?

What are we talking about in terms of frequency, in terms of connection? There's a whole bunch of men that I talk to that say, I would be fine if it was just a few times a month, as long as the quality connection, whatever, was awesome, then I'd be like, yay. Versus I have some guys that I'm like, it needs to be on a daily basis or I'm about to lose my marbles. So frequency-wise, I hear it's all over the place. Quality-wise, it's all over the place. It's all over the place. I can tell you what I like, but what's the matter? It's what you like, Halal, and what other people like.

Well, Halal, I mean, I think that what you— what I usually say is that a healthy sex life is when people can talk about what they want, when it's open-minded, when people are not shaming each other. It really has very little to do with frequency or even the sort of activity that's engaged in. You know, it has to do with two people that can be open and honest and intimate with one another and where sex is not a battleground or something that we use against each other, or something that is unilaterally withdrawn from, from, you know, from the relationship, and where you can openly discuss your needs and your desires. There's so many men, by the way, that would be thrilled to death if the woman just talked about a fantasy. It's like, you know, if she just even— or if she doesn't have any, which a lot of low libido women don't, despite that men don't believe that they don't masturbate, they don't have fantasies, and guys are like, no way. Yes way. If you're a low libido woman, you don't masturbate, you don't have fantasies, you know. Just like, are they secretly scrapbooking? No, they don't like scrapbooking. Why would they secretly scrapbook? They're not scrapbooking at all. So it's the same with low libido women and sex. They have a low libido, that's what it means. But anywho, if the guy said, uh, that he had a fantasy, even if she didn't even have one, if she was just even curious or interested, they would be over the moon. You just have to be open and curious and interested in your partner to be a good partner, in sex or otherwise.

Isn't it interesting that I went immediately to the very manly thing of frequency, how many times, and you went to the more deeper emotional side of connecting and being more, you know, connecting up here in the head. And so it's just very interesting that the man—

yeah, yeah, I am a psychologist, so thank week, please. You know what, that's true. Just talking about the Excel spreadsheet count of it. But, but in terms of— but actually, Halal, if you wanted to know, um, what research suggests is that a marriage, a happy marriage, is associated— happiness in a marriage is associated with at least once a week of sexual frequency. Above that, unfortunately, again for the followers, it is not associated with increased happiness in the relationship. As reported by both, but under that is increased— is associated with unhappiness in the relationship.

That seems to be the tipping point. Yeah, that once a week seems to be the—

yeah, there you go. In my practice as well, when I see people every 2 weeks and they haven't had sex in that whole time, it's like a— it's like a very mournful vibe, you know, in the session. Like nobody's doing well if it's been 2 weeks, but if it's been 1 week, then people are like still kind of all right.

Let me move on here to the comments. Nancy says, my husband— Nancy from Facebook says, my husband wants to make me jealous sometimes. At our kitchen window, he looks out and he notices a woman walking by, and he looks on purpose, and he says, ooh la la. How do I respond in order to avoid a further quarrel? I know he loves me, and we've been together for over 35 years. He knows I am jealous. He perhaps too. No one has cheated. Um, uh, there's a spelling—

do I not get to see all the comments?

I am not— I am not bad looking, Nancy says. Nancy. And I spoke once about our young and handsome neighbor. Was that a mistake of mine? Thank you. Well, you know, all right, let me just say this. I, I am a little unfair in my commentary on this simply because my wife and I have a pretty open relationship. Well, I shouldn't say we don't have an open sexual relationship. Let me just say that to the people out there. We have an open communicative relationship in terms of, oh, look at that pretty girl out there. She will say that to me just as much as I will say that to her, simply because it's a pretty girl. We all notice the super pretty girl walking in front of us. Every head is turning. She's not above saying, look at that, and I'm not above looking at that and giving her the elbow. And she's not above saying— I've mentioned this before— for some reason, what really gets her going are the football players in their tight pants. She's not above saying, look at the— you could see the package on the guy on the— and I'm like, okay, thank you, appreciate it. And we just laugh it off. Other people hearing that may say, what the hell, guys, this is completely unhealthy. You shouldn't be looking at other human beings in that way. This is You're teetering towards cheating. And I just like, what?

No, that's just crazy.

That's always been us.

Like, that's the reality. Yeah, that they're attractive.

Yes.

And so if another human is attractive, then you got a very tenuous connection.

There you go. But that is from what I've seen, dare I say, the majority of people that I've talked to is like, that is way out there, Ralph. That's completely unheard of.

No, we would never know a bunch of people on the Titanic were not in a good mood though, you know, because This is true.

Who are we talking to, right? So Nancy, when you come to me and say, my husband, I caught my husband looking out the window at some chick and he goes, ooh, check that out. And I guess the point is, if you have made it pretty bluntly to hubby, you know, I don't like that when you do that. It's just kind of, ugh, just, it rubs me the wrong way. I, if my wife said that to me, I'd be like, oh, well, first of all, it'd be kind of a weird, a sudden change of heart, but I'd be like, okay, cool. And I would respect that.

It.

And I would hope she would do the same. So when your husband's like, I hear you, wife, and continues doing it, that's kind of a poke at her, I would think, a little bit.

Yeah, I think that he's being a dick. But I mean, I don't really know why. He's probably grappling with his own mortality. He has some sort of fantasy in his mind that somehow he could have sex with these young women in some way or another. He's too tacky to keep that in his own head. He doesn't sound like he's being— he's acting wonderfully. But I mean, I certainly wouldn't, um, you know, say it means anything more than that. He's just being impolite. And, you know, allowing his arrogance to possibly take over. Who knows? If you mention the hot guy yourself, you may get really into it. Like, there's something like the number one Googled porn term is hot wife. I mean, he might like that idea of you liking that other guy. It's like a big thing among male fantasy.

Or, you know, he most likely would not take that the next step of like, oh, tell me more about that. But it would just introduce a level of— what's the word— naughtiness, dirtiness, whatever, to the relationship that may be a little titillating to him. And if he sees you checking out some dude, he may smack you on the butt and say, you know, "Dirty girl," and that's it, done. But it introduces a level of fun and playfulness that I think is missing.

It could be that that's what he's trying to do in a best-case scenario. He's trying to be somewhat, you know, sexually interesting interesting or dynamic and change it up in some way.

Who knows? I wonder what he would do. I wonder what he would do, Nancy, if he took a— if you took a page from my wife's playbook and ran over to the, to the window to see what he was looking at and said, yeah, I can see what you're looking at, she's not bad looking at all. He'd probably be like, what? Okay, where'd this Nancy come from? But it might take him aback, and, uh, I don't know, maybe food for conversation. And she says greetings from Germany, so willkommen, Nancy. My wife's from Germany, so there you go. Um, whereabouts in Germany, by the way?

Your wife? Maybe that's who he was looking at out the window. If your wife is from Germany, that makes no sense, Samantha.

That's a bit of a stretch. Oh, here's a topic. Oh, this is a good one. Thank you, Adnor, from YouTube. Shit tests. Samantha says, they don't exist, guys. Stop with the shit test nonsense. And Ralph Brewer Brewer Brewer says, oh yeah, they exist. So let's hash it out here. When you think shit test, what are you thinking when they say that?

Well, in my podcast I said shit tests are a myth except for women who have borderline personality, in which who are actually doing that. So I mean, that's who's doing it. And men who have borderline personality or narcissistic narcissistic personality. People with personality disorders test people constantly. This is just who they are. But the average person does not do such a thing. They don't think about it. They, they just like don't think about that. But the people on the internet who have been, uh, cheated on— so I also have a post that says most women don't cheat because the rates of women cheating are very low. So 87% of women are not cheating. But that 13% is a lot of human beings, and that— and most of those people are pretty disordered. Because for a woman to turn away from her kids and her life and her naturally lowered sex drive and monogamy and go screw around with some guy and lie about it makes her a pretty disordered person, you know. And so those are necessarily going to be the people who would also do the shit tests, etc., etc. There's obviously fucked up people. There's also murderers, you know. But like, it's not the majority of of people.

Let me take it from a more broader perspective. Everyone tests everyone in some way if you're looking for it. I often give this example: you're hired, you're hired at a new job, and in the interview process the boss says, uh, you're never gonna have to work weekends, okay? So I could just— you have my word. And you're like, good, because, you know, I took away from my last job, I had to work weekends, and it took away from my family. I almost lost my marriage over this. He's like, yeah, we don't do that to our employees. You don't have to work weekends. Cool. And then 2 weeks into the job, he's like, I'm going to need you to come in on Saturday. And you're like, how do you respond to that? Do you say, hey, Mr. Boss Man, remember our chat 2 weeks ago? Remember our deal? If this is the deal, I'm going to have to shake hands and say this isn't for me. I'm sorry. Versus, okay, I guess I will. And then you come in on Saturday and you're like, where's everybody else at? And you realize you're the only one, you and the boss, who showed up because everybody else said no. Shit test failed. He wanted to see what you're made of, and the test was this guy doesn't have the balls to say no. Everybody else did, but guess what? This is the guy who's gonna bend over backwards to do whatever I tell him to do, and I probably won't even have to give him a raise. He'll just do it. So shit test failed. That's, that's how we look at these things.

The majority of people don't really do that shit, you know? I mean, they really don't. They need you on Saturday, they call you to come on Saturday. Majority the world is not living in Office Space, you know. So I mean, people tend to say what they mean. So if a woman says to the guy, like, do you think that she's hot? Do you think she's hotter than me? This is like either a very young, drunk, dramatic woman with some borderline tendencies, or something that doesn't really exist, because most people in healthy marriages are more like Nancy Fancy over here, where the guy is like actively saying weird shit and she don't even say anything because she doesn't want to cause a problem. The average human being does not like conflict and thrive with drama. They really don't. That's the average securely attached person, which is still the average. At least half people are securely attached, and then it's the minorities are, uh, avoidant and then preoccupied. But Most people do not want to cause a bunch of shit. They really don't. The people that do are what you call the vocal minority. So everybody's heard of or seen a girl act like that, but it's really in no way representative of, of, of what's normal or what's happening.

I think the disconnect here is that you are framing it as an overt, purposeful thing that the person is doing in order to get a rise out of you, to see how you you react. And I agree, that is like highly dysfunctional. Who the hell would do that? Well, I interpret it, and what men interpret it in general, is society, women in particular, just doing things, and we go, oh, this is one of those moments where I could turn left or right here. What do I do? We, we, we're— men are so analytical and so trying to fix and figure out everything. We're little engineers, you know. We're, we're kind of spectrumy in that way. And so when boss says come in on Saturday, we go, oh, 'Oh, this is my moment. I can stick up for myself, or I can say yes, sir, and show him that, you know, I'm a hard, committed worker.' Or is he going to treat me as a pushover? 'Oh, this is one of those test moments. Which way do I go, left or right?' And what we've noticed is we seem to have a lot of those kind of moments from our loved one. From our— and she doesn't mean to be mean half the time. Maybe she does if she's one of these borderline types or whatever. But this is one of those moments. Do I turn left or right? Am I going to be a pushover-y guy? Am I going to be a sweet guy? Am I going to be an asshole? That's how we interpret it.

You know who thinks like that? Anxious people. Anxious people think like that. And separately, anxious attachment people think like that. So either people with actual clinical social or generalized anxiety. So like somebody with social anxiety, they'll say, you know, I like— I talked to my friend, my friend invited me out for a beer, I can't go out for a beer tonight What do I do? It's going to ruin the friendship. He's going to get a different friend. What do I do? I know he was looking at me. I know when I said it, I didn't even say yes or no right away. I probably already ruined the friendship. Meanwhile, the guy just barely— he just kind of said, hey, you want to go for a beer? It doesn't give a shit if the guy says yes or no. So it's the same thing. These guys will come into couples counseling, the anxiously attached guys, they'll say Well, you know, there was a decisive moment, like what you're talking about, Ralph. There was a fork in the road. She asked me if I wanted to come to the gym with her, and I didn't know what to say because I knew that to her, if I said yes, it would mean this, and if I said no, was that. And I turned to her and she's like, wait, what? Like, I asked you? When did I— I asked you to go to the gym? She doesn't even remember that it happened. But because he's so anxious about it, he tells himself he's the hero in this building's Roman, and it's a fork in the road. And it's like, she don't even remember the thing. So this is also a hallmark of anxiety, to think that there are shit tests, and in general tests everywhere. If you don't— if you don't— if you learn in therapy or otherwise not to see other people as potential antagonists and aggressors and testers, magically all these shit tests just kind of evaporate.

I do, I do find myself saying quite honest— or quite often to guys rather. Dude, it's no biggie. Dude, it's no biggie. I say that quite a bit to men that I'm talking to. Like, the other day, blah blah blah blah blah, my wife said this, the boss said that. Yeah, dude, that's no biggie. That happens quite often. Oh, okay, I wasn't sure. You're right, it's born— much of this is born out of anxiety. And who do you and I talk to a lot? A lot of anxious individuals, for sure.

A lot of those people.

Uh, oh, we got a big one here. Mr. David Married 29 years. David from Facebook says, pardon me while I burp, married 29 years, no sexual intimacy for the last 8 years. Oh, she doesn't understand why I still want to be intimate. She claims that the act is not necessary for a good marriage.

I don't understand either. It's been 29 years, 8 years, no sex. I don't understand it either, quite honestly. But continue.

We've been, we have been to a marriage therapist 11 years ago. For about 1 year. Well, that didn't really click. At that time, we had only been intimate once in the past 7 years. Okay, so this is just dead of— deader than dead bedroom.

Deader than dead.

He encouraged us to have more intimacy. Yeah, that'll do it. And she agreed, and we had a good and special date that ended with a mutually great sexual experience. So a one-off deal. Unfortunately, the next day she was upset with me as to why I was in such a good mood. She didn't think that I should need intimacy to be in such a good mood. Oh God, now that I give this to you, you're in a good mood. That shouldn't be that way. You shouldn't be so dependent upon your, your sexuality, mister. So shaming you for being in this relationship.

I'm sorry, how old is this man and why is he still in this relationship?

David, that's the ultimate question here, buddy. At the very end of all this, we could continue reading. You're basically selling us on something. You're selling us on the fact that your wife is a kind of a broken individual, especially when it comes to being a wife. I'm sorry, that's mean of me to say, but she's— something's going on and it ain't good. And either you two are just wildly mismatched, or she's got issues, or you got issues, that it's just— this ain't good. She was raised in a very strict religious household. She admits she rebelled against her very strict father who said that sex is only for marriage and procreation. So she's got a lot of childhood baggage that has colored her, what you're saying.

A lot of childhood baggage and being a rescuer, because there was red flags about this. It was a red flag factory, and they are locked in this codependent thing. And this man needs some sort of, um, individual help. And there is this no coming back from this one. It is not good. She's postmenopausal now, I'm sure, and there's— it's never going to turn into a good intimate life with this kind of history.

Another way to look at this, David, there's a large group of men that exist out there, believe it or not, who decades ago, decades ago, into this kind of relationship would have said, oh, this is— this ain't good. Sorry, sweetheart, it's been nice knowing you. No hard feelings. I love you, but this ain't gonna work out. And that is a perfectly healthy way of looking at this. What— and here's the key— what is it, David, that is so different from those guys and you? Why do they have that mindset and you have the complete polar opposite?

That's what you got to look at and go, look into your family of origin, David. David, look into your family of origin, my friend. There's no way you did not see this enabling and martyrdom tendency, at least one parent. You are yourself to the cross here, and you had to have seen it somewhere. And I think that that is what you should have as a takeaway.

There you go. And moving on from Facebook, Mr. Ken says, is there any point in Is there any point in trying if partner dismisses my concern of our drifting apart? Dead bedroom. She sleeps in another room. Ouch. No sex even on the occasion of our 35th anniversary. Numbers are very telling here. She chose to go out of town to reconnect with estranged sisters. I'm at the end of options. She checked out. Isn't that basically it? Yeah, she checked out. She's saying, Ken, I don't want you no more, buddy.

Yeah, you can live the rest of your life happy. Leave, find somebody else. Your kids are out of the house. What are you staying for?

Yeah, what I hear from a lot of these stories, like with David and Ken, is if we were to listen probably to Ken's story, we would hear probably a dozen more such moments of being pushed away. Get away from me. The proverbial push away. Get away. I'm going to my sister's. No, I don't want to sleep next to you. No, don't touch me. No, no, push away, push away, push away., and yet you keep pursuing and hanging on, you know, like the little dog hanging on the leg, just don't want to let go, and the person's just shaking you off saying, no, beat it, beat it, beat it. And eventually you got to take the hint, Ken.

And, um, again, they're both in sad situations, but thankfully they're still alive. Life is long, and you could, you could leave, you could find somebody else. You did your time, you raised your kids, you're a good man. Now it's time to get out and try to find something Sean has a good—

I think this is— he says, she— I believe he's referring to you— is she aware that there are surveys that show that female infidelity is much higher than the general social survey?

I believe— one yet that made any sense. They link me to a New York Post article that says that women think about cheating more than people think. That's literally what it says, something like that. There is absolutely no— and there will never be any research showing that women engage in more sexual affairs than men because women have far, far lower testosterone levels than men. Men like to go out and take risks and have sex with people much, much more than women do, who are at home taking care of their children, balancing their work, and whether they have to do the laundry, and what their horoscope says that day, and whether they want to get that pair of shoes from DSW. That is what the average woman is thinking about. She's not going to Starbucks and thinking, I want to I want to have sex with that man. Every man that goes into Starbucks and sees a hot woman thinks, I want to have sex with that woman. Who do you think is going to cheat more? This is just so ridiculous. Of course men cheat more. Every study says it because it only makes sense. Men are evolutionarily predisposed to want to spread their seed. Women have only a limited amount of babies they can have, so they have much more parental investment in each one. Every— there's no way that it is different because it is not different and no study ever says it's different.

I agree with you 100%, but there is a, uh, a growing sentiment, um, a, a building library of material out there from women, from women saying the overall theme of sexuality in the history of the modern history of mankind has been skewed to be very man-centric, saying men love sex, women not so much. And oh boy, that is not true. And they will point to a lot of things such as, who is it that is requesting open marriages more, men or women? And I often cite that there was a survey done by a website called openminded.com, which surveyed some 60,000 couples, and it was women saying, I'm interested in going exploring outside of this relationship.

Relationship.

Go ahead.

Yes, I've read all these books as you, by Wednesday Martin, and What Women Want, and all of this stuff that shows that female sex drive drops within monogamy, but women still value the family unit and they want to stay married. So if their sex drive drops, well, lots of shit happens. Your boobs drop too, you know. So, you know, that's just life, and that is how the women think about it. Most women— oh yes, that was then, this is now. That was honeymoon stage. Now we're older. Now I have kids. Now we'll have sex, you know, but it's not going to be like it used to be. And that is what it is. That is the most common sentiment from women. But it doesn't go, I want to go screw some other guy and potentially ruin my family, limit my access to my children, and get, uh, basically vilified by everybody that I know for being a whore. That is not what the average woman chooses to do.

That's true. The average woman, no.

Using open marriages is because it's the often the last stand before divorce. They don't want to get divorced. They want to keep the relationship together. And, but they actually do want to get divorced. So women, of course, initiate divorce more. And everybody knows that. And I'll never disagree with that because that is actual data. That's the statistics. But often women try that as kind of the last gasp, you know, could it, we could, we potentially somehow make this more exciting in some kind of a way. You know, before we separate. And some people that are in the lifestyle do like it, but most people—

I would agree, most people do not. But I also don't— I don't think it's fair to say that is indicative of rut row. This woman's about ready to divorce. I have definitely heard those scenarios, but the worst scenario I hear, which is unfortunately not that uncommon, is, um, I actually already have a man picked out and we've already kind of formed an emotional bond and I'm feeling really guilty over this. Husband, you ever thought about an open relationship? Good news, new boyfriend, it's on now. That's bad scenario, I have heard that. But I have been hearing from women, I'm getting a lot more direct messages from ladies saying, if I touch on something about non-monogamy, if I touch on something about, a lot of women are realizing that maybe the monogamous relationship lowers their libido and they feel more alive outside of the monogamous relationship. I'm getting messages from women saying, thank you for bringing this up. I approached my husband about our dwindling sex life. And he's been very frustrated. And I've been very frustrated. And I've told him I want to start exploring with others. And he has really, and he has really shamed me for that. And I feel bad about it, blah, blah, blah.

Do you watch Easy? There's like some TV show Easy. And it's exactly this storyline. It's 3 seasons, you got to watch the first episode of season 1, then 2, 3. Their sex life is boring. She's the higher earner, he's a stay-at-home dad. She insists that she's still attracted to him when she's not. And, um, and the reason I say that is because that's what they bring up in the show. And then eventually they open the marriage because they both want to make it exciting again after she tries to make it actually exciting, dressing up, whatever. He's not that adventurous. And then basically in the last thing, they're kind of sitting on the side of their beds, each each, you know, messaging to their open marriage partners. And we kind of get the— the moral of the story is this did not bring them any closer together. But that is a common kind of scenario that I see, you know.

So, so if I'm understanding, to summarize, do women cheat as much as men? No. Are women, while they are married in a monogamous relationship, are they more apt to see their sex drive fall as a result of— that's probably too strong of words. Um, one of the big pieces for what is it that makes my sex drive fall, a big portion of that puzzle is because I'm in a long-term monogamous relationship. Once I'm in that, things, the dial just naturally starts getting turned down a little bit. Okay. So we admit to that. And then we admit to, and some of these women go as far as to say, maybe we should try the open marriage thing. Okay. Um, then is it such a big step to say that we're seeing a growing number of women stepping outside of their marriage? Maybe that number is— maybe they're catching up to the men.

But I don't think we are, because I mean, I, I don't see it and the statistics don't show it. The reality is I think there's a difference in how people understand it. The sex, like, okay, so you know how you're married, right? And you may like say other women are pretty and whatever, but you've turned down that like makes you want to approach other women. You kind of turn that dial down, right? So women do that, but it's for sex drive altogether. It's basically— it comes down within monogamy. So you don't just sit there and like think about like other men that you could have sex with, because like why would you do that? You know, you, you're like, you want to be married. So you, if anything, you try to think about ways to be more romantic with your husband, maybe have a drink, like buy some lingerie, something to spice things up, but you don't try to turn the dial back up because that would be considered a risk to the marriage. Women don't also initiate open marriages and all these things when the kids are little, when they couldn't get out if they wanted to get out, you know. There's a stage— what really happens is it's honeymoon stage when you're dating. This is the most common trajectory: honeymoon stage, 1.5 to 3 years. Then the couple, you know, gets married, she gets pregnant, you know. So everything dials down. She's in a totally different mode where she's obsessed with the kids, which is genetically and biologically correct for that stage— a newborn, a baby, a toddler. Then she has another baby, then she may have another baby. And so then at some point, yes, of course their sex life ends up worse, but there was a million factors, including the antidepressant she's probably on by that time and the fact that he's not really very romantic exciting. And the fact that she's 10 fucking years older, you know, so there are a million variables here. But yes, monogamy is certainly one of them. But it's certainly not so cut and dry.

Any thoughts on the survey that came out? I did a couple of different little videos about it that shows when they surveyed and said, are you happy, you know, scale of 1 to 10. And then they plotted out and said, okay, amongst all these types of people at different stages in their life, who is the happiest? And it turned out that the happiest were women who are not married with no children. Does that surprise you?

No, not at all. I mean, it's like the title of the book by Jennifer Senior about parenthood. It's called All Joy and No Fun.

I've not read that.

You should read it. Your guys would like it if you read it and recommended it to your coaching clients. But it really gives a good summary of the parenting experience. It is so massively stressful. You know, to have kids and balance a job and all of these sorts of things. People that don't have kids and aren't married, I mean, it's like, what are you doing? You're working, which may be fulfilling. You're doing your hobbies, which may be fulfilling. Most people don't choose it because they want to have a genetic legacy. They find some depth in that, some life meaning. But in terms of day-to-day happiness, most people rated mopping over childcare when they did surveys years ago that were reviewed in that book, among other things. You know, just regular household tasks, which are onerous, were still less stressful than childcare. So it's not the marriage thing, it's this, this is the kid piece that's very stressful.

Well, but a lot of women point to, no, actually being married to a man is very, very stressful because a lot of, not all, but a lot of men are like, take care of me, wife, take care of the home, take care of— and I know you're thinking, well, in today's day and age, you see it more egalitarian, but there are still pockets in this country and in the world where that's not the case where—

well, if you're with some guy like that, then sure, I guess that could be true. But women that are with those kind of guys who are super traditional are then also having children. So I mean, you really can't disentangle.

Yeah, true. And but there's also the, the group of people, older women who are widows. And we know that statistic, man, they are—

oh yeah. There always used to be so many widows because there were no dating apps, there there was like a lot of like, uh, weird stuff around you can't have sex again. So there were like all these like super happy widows, like I'm sure you had in your family. I had in my family, like people just— the husband died and then you lived on for like 20, 30 years taking care of your grandkids, go to bingo. Like it was like totally the dream because you have no sex drive anymore, so you don't want to have sex. And so women were more also— there were like extended kin networks, so grandmother, the aunt, all these would be widows, like happy, merry widow club, you know, and people were happy. At a certain point, you know, the evolutionary reason, the hypothesis behind why women live longer than men is to take care of their grandchildren, because grandchildren have, in, in lower income or areas, do better when a grandparent is involved because it's like a surrogate parent. It's like having another parent on your side, you know, taking care of you. So yeah, that is what women want to do. And I see this among a lot of clients. The woman wants to be inextricably involved. In the grandchildren's lives. And the husband was like, I thought we were going to travel. And she's like, travel? We just had a grandchild. You, what are you talking about? So that's why I encourage people very much to talk about their hopes for the empty nester years so that they're not at cross purposes.

And does the stat that, uh, widow women tend to remarry at a much lower rate than widower men Does that—

like, instant, they like replace them like fast.

It does that not— does that not point to the innate, uh, anxiety-producing nature of a marriage? Even though post-kids, it could be 20, 30 years after kids, that woman looks back and says, do I want to remarry and do that again? I think I'll just enjoy my life.

Yes, there are many women, and they are the more avoidant women. Like, I have a podcast, oh, many avoidant partners would be relieved if if you initiate a divorce, because then they get to be alone. There are many people who just do not want to be with somebody, you know, they just don't. They had a genetic feeling like this, this pressure, they wanted kids. There's only one way to get them really, you know, you got to get married. They didn't articulate that, but they knew they wanted the family and kids, but they got it. So now what are they dealing with him like bothering them for sex all the time? It seems obscene to them at that juncture. And if people feel that way, then often the best thing to do is to split.

So we're saying there is a good chunk of the population that got married, had kids, simply because they wanted that, that family unit. They, they— that their goal is the domestic. Yeah, not necessarily, I'm so in love with this man over here, I can't wait to make children with him, he's my knight in shining armor.

Marriage was always completely orthogonal with love, like in Shakespearean times and before that, right? You would have a love with your affair partner, with your great love, but marriage was to cement your dynasty and the future of your offspring. People want to make babies, they want to pass down their genetic material. Even asexual people want to have a baby, you know? You don't think about it, you don't parse it out. Remember being 20? You're an idiot at 20, everybody is. So you just think Oh, like, attach, attach. And what the attachment means is I want to pass down my genetic material. They don't separate out, do I love this man? Am I in love with this man? Am I good? Nobody thinks like that. They think man, like life, baby, wedding, yay, yay. You know, that's what your id does.

Does it concern you at all, or has it been expressed to you at all, that much of what we're talking about, the tone, can be construed by a large portion of the population —dare I say mostly men—as being very anti-marriage in general.

Oh yeah, all these guys threaten—promise me that they're opting out of the marriage market in my comments, and I'm like, bye. You know, like, there's not going to be any funeral parades, like, for you leaving, you know. If men do not want to be married, they should definitively not get married. Why? So there could be like children of divorce, unwanted children. Why would anybody get married who doesn't want to get married? Dropping marriage rates. All right. You know, people don't want to get married. Why should they have to get married if they don't want to be married? So there could be more miserable, conflictual, chaotic homes for kids. Doesn't make any sense.

Well, you know, you and I are in agreement in that, but there's a giant cohort of people who would say this is the next fall of Rome. I've mentioned that to you before where—

Oh, I've even heard this. The fall of Rome.

The marriage rate's dropping. The fertility rates and the, you know, far fewer babies being born. Uh-oh. You know, even have the Elon Musks of the world saying that this is an existential crisis for the human race, that we're not reproducing. Well, he has like 12 of his own kids, so he's doing his own, doing his work on his own. Yeah, doing his part. But you try to, you know, see it from the male perspective of, uh, why do I get with this woman? Because I love her more than anything in the world. Number one, there's a sexual attraction, there's the emotional, the intellectual. I want to take care of her, I want to serve, I want to make babies with her. This is all wonderful. And for him to hear somebody saying, you know, throughout history, the only reason that that woman was with you most likely is because she wanted to procreate.

And that's the reason he loves her so much. That's the reason he looks for the waist to hip ratio. From—

yeah, exactly, the fertility cues and all that other stuff.

Yeah, there's many guys that minimize their own biology and they put themselves on a pedestal as the second coming of Romeo and they're just as pulled around by their dick as the woman is by her ovaries.

But the thing is that if society is getting to the point where we are removing some of that lovey-dovey component. I don't know how to explain this better. We're putting it down to the biological component of this, of, sir, the only reason you're with this woman is because of her waist-to-hip ratio and the fertility, and you want to reproduce, whether you know it, you know, consciously or not, deep down in your biological programming. That's why you are pursuing that little hot young thing over there. Um, then if men are like, oh, Well, that's the only reason. If she's only with me because of, and she can't wait to get rid of me, and if she dies, she'll never remarry because I'm that much of a stress on her, then maybe I'll take my name.

Any man who thinks like that shouldn't be married. Any man who thinks like that shouldn't be married because people need to be able to hold multiple competing thoughts in their head at one time, such as I could, for example, I want my children to survive because that is my biological programming. I should also be able to love my children for their little individual personalities and who they are. I mean, that's called being a human being, is we can understand things on multiple levels all at once. And that's what seems to elude many commenters, you know, like it's very black and white, it's very either-or. Of course you could be in love with your wife, of course you could think about her as wonderful and she could think about you as wonderful and you could feel like soulmates. Also, there are biological imperatives.

But then, uh, going back to some of our previous commenters, you know, I haven't had sexual intercourse for so many years, I have lost that intimate connection. There is a, a chorus of people out there that would say, suck it up, dude, quit thinking with your penis, you got kids, look at the little things, don't you love them, don't you want to have an intact home, don't you have this, don't you have that, don't you have the career, don't you—

Well, like, at a certain level, that is correct, you know, to stay together to see if things get better when you have little kids, certainly go to counseling and stuff. Where it's starts to not make any sense, and where we weed out the securely attached guys from the super preoccupied guys, is when the kids even leave the house. Some of these guys are still thinking something's gonna come back and obsessing over the relationship. Man, you did it! You raised them to adulthood, you know, or near adulthood. It's done. Good job. And now it's time to like maybe turn your mind somewhere else. There is certainly— if you still have young kids at home, that's a major motivator People work harder in couples counseling when they have kids.

But then we have the— then we have the old proverbial tipping point. All right, little Billy and Susie are 3, 4, 5, 8, 10. At what point do I say, all right, enough's enough here? This is— I, I have enough evidence to go on that this relationship is going to be broken. And is there— is there a tipping point where it goes from, how can I best minimize the, the, the, the emotional and mental damage to these children that a that a broken home will inevitably cause, and which goes to this Carolina's comment here on Facebook. How bad is divorce on children, and what are the consequences on the kids, and what's the impact short-term, long-term? Well, that's a—

I have a lot about that, Carolyn. I've written a book about that on Amazon, How to Talk to Your Kids About Your Divorce, so anybody can read that. Um, the, the fact of the matter— I will have to go after this question because I do have to go to pickups Speaking of kids, but, um, the facts of the matter are, uh, short. It's very dependent on the child. It's dependent on how amicable the split is, how it is handled among the parents. Obviously it's going to be a trauma for the children, that goes without saying. It's a huge change for them. You can't minimize that. However, the best case is to go into two amicable, happy homes. If you can go from a home with fighting to two amicable homes, and that can even be better for the kids. People that grew up in very dysfunctional homes remember begging parents to divorce because the fighting would stop. So a situation like that, in fact, is better for the children. A situation where the parents are keeping it together, then it is not better for the children. But the parents do count as human beings philosophically, so, you know, you don't want to remain miserable forever. And if you can ameliorate some of the negative impacts then that's as good as you can do. It is an individual decision when to stay or when to go based on a million variables that one could, uh, talk about forever and far longer than this 0 seconds that I have.

All right, well, we'll wrap it up then. Thank you, Miss Samantha. Appreciate you.

Thank you for your time. Cancellation, I'll tell you. Maybe we could talk a lot.

Yes. And thank you, everyone.

Out, or does that ruin something with recording?

I think you are just fine. I'll exit out right now. So thank you everyone for attending and participating in your comments. Appreciate every last one of you. Thank you guys. Thank you, Samantha. Bye-bye.