My Interview With Carla Crivaro - "The Forgotten Man"

All right, today, uh, with me on the Dad Starting Over Show, I have Miss Carla Cravaro. Carla, well, you know what, how did we connect with each other? I think we had a mutual podcaster that we knew, Harvey. That's right, from the Men Are the Prize podcast. He connected us. Um, and so I was very interested in your stuff after going through all of your material. Yeah, you have great stuff, but I'm going to, um I'm going to presume that the majority of the guys listening to this are probably like, Carla, who? So take it away, Carla. Who are you and what do you do? And how does that pertain to my audience? You know, my audience with the Dad Starting Over world.

Yeah. So I'm Carla Crivaro, sex, love, and relationship coach. I work with men and women and I also work with couples around sex. It's stuff like being unsatisfied in the bedroom, not feeling confident, um, and helping people experience more pleasure, um, and really getting confident and enjoying their sex life. When it comes to relationships, it's things around like blame cycles, feeling disconnected, and helping people come to emotional and physical intimacy. Um, the work that I do, um, that is most relatable to your audience is around the Forgotten Father. So do you want me to explain that?

Or absolutely, take it away. Yeah.

So the easiest way for me to explain it is sort of like the story of where it came from. So I originally started out supporting, um, mums because I'm a mother myself. I've got, um, two boys, 10 and 6. And I was, as during my journey in supporting mums in, you know, reconnecting to their sexuality, their sense of identity, and supporting them in their relationships, Quite often I was talking about, you know, let's have a look at the man's point of view. So, you know, as you show up in your relationship, that's going to affect him and how he shows up and how he responds to that. And because of the fact that I talked in this way, you know, the fact that a relationship is a dynamic, there are two parts to play at that. Men started to hear what I was saying. And so I started to getting more and more male clients.. And from that, I decided to do an extra year to train in male sexuality and masculinity just so I could take my work deeper. Obviously, you know, I'm a woman. I don't fully have the experience of men. I mean, obviously, you know, each man is going to have their own individual experience, but there's a general conditioning that we have in the West around, you know, our bodies, sexuality, relationships, you know, how we show up, you know, what we're allowed to do in inverted commas and what we're not allowed to do. And what I noticed, you know, as I was speaking to more and more men, and particularly fathers, um, was the sort of like lack of acknowledgement of the transition for men into fatherhood. So, you know, as a woman, um, you know, I think that there could be a lot more support for women out there, but at least there is the support. So, you know, whether it's an antenatal class, whether it's you know, teaching women about their bodies or, you know, even certain, to a certain extent, some emotional elements as well. What I began to really fully understand and discover when I was supporting men was the fact that, you know, that support for men is sort of like either non-existent or severely lacking. You know, quite often the journey for men is more around you know, how they are supporting their partner. But there's very little acknowledgment of the transition that they make. And so, you know, what can happen is men can feel quite isolated and on the outside of, you know, the, the family, let's say, when a baby comes into the mix. And this starts, you know, not when the baby is born, but what I was seeing and also what I acknowledged in myself, in my own, you know, journey through my own pregnancies, you know, when I looked back on them. Was a lot of the decisions that are made tend to be made by the mother. And there are certain things that I think, you know, are likely to be more made by the mom because it's, you know, related to our body. So like breastfeeding, you know, the actual birthing process itself. But, you know, quite often a lot of women and, you know, myself included, didn't or don't give men the opportunity to voice their opinions. It's quite often shut down, quite often, you know, ignored, not considered. And it's not to say that necessarily as a woman that you need to go and do what it is that your partner's suggesting with your own body. But, you know, just acknowledging how they might feel and validating their experience, I think, is, you know, really important just so that they feel included. And then other things like you know, what type of pram to get and, you know, what color the nursery is, you know, the decisions that they could possibly be more involved in empowering men to think about those and make the decisions, you know, because it's the magazines are all aimed at women and what, you know, the women want around these things. And the thing is, it is easy for men to go and get access to that information now if they choose to. But also women encouraging that and asking men, you know, what's your opinion? What do you think? What do you want? 'What do you think would be best?' Um, 'What have you read about this?' And getting men more involved. Because not doing so, what that does is it sets up for men this sort of like idea that how they are in relationship to their partner and how they are in relationship to the child isn't actually important. It's not considered like— their role isn't considered as important or necessary as, as maybe the mothers, or as Actually, when you look at the research out there, and there's a really good book around this and it's called The Boy Crisis, I think it's by— is it William Farrell? I can't remember his name.

Yes.

Um, yeah, that's it. And, um, you know, and that's looking at bringing up boys, but he does also talk about women, that, you know, girls growing up to be women, that, you know, fathers not being present and active bringing up their own children can have really detrimental effects. So, you know, being really mindful that the role of the father, um, is really important because men bring something completely different to a family dynamic than, you know, a mother would. And so when it came to the Forgotten Father, like I said, you know, the reason that I, I created that term was because men just haven't been considered in the emotional, the, the physical, you know, the decision-making process as they transition from um, from partner to, to father. Um, what I began to notice as well was there were 3 sort of main ways that men were behaving, um, in a way to, um, in, in response to what they were experiencing. Um, and the 3 main ones were withdrawal. So rather than being involved in spending time with the baby, they would start working more, they wouldn't go to events with the children. So they started sort of almost detaching from their partner and from the family unit itself. Second way that I would see men responding was through sort of like passive-aggressive comments. And, you know, there's that idea that sometimes if you're not getting any attention, then misbehavior creates that attention. So, and, you know, saying derogatory things to women, to their partners, putting their partner down, being hypercritical. Um, and that, you know, quite often, even though it's not a healthy way of doing it, is a way that a mum might behave to actually get his partner's attention. Um, and then the third way was, you know, the whole Mr. Nice Guy. So, you know, self-abandoning, losing boundaries, um, allowing themselves also to be emasculated. Um, I know some of the men listening will probably really identify with that in the sense of, you know, she walked all over me, spoke to me like this and she spoke to me like that. And, you know, I do work with women as individuals who complain about their partners not doing the right thing and he doesn't get it right and he doesn't do this. And I can see that the partner's trying. But then I also say to the women, well, how are you speaking to him about it? Because, you know, sometimes women and, you know, this was, this is me, I'll hold my hand up there, you know, speak to their partners in a way that wouldn't speak to anybody else. And so, you know, for the women, it's like, how are you actually bringing up these subjects and how are you speaking to him? Are you treating him like a child or are you actually speaking to him like an adult? Like, does he work? Yeah. You know, he's a manager at such and such a company. Well, he, you know, obviously he's really good at making decisions and managing people. So he does have those skills. He can bring them at home. But how is he being treated at home? And then, you know, if I was working with men as individuals, it's like, okay, how are we going to get boundaries in place here? You know, how are you going to say how you will and won't be spoken to? Because your end of changing the dynamic is what you will allow and what you won't allow. So like I said, I've supported individuals on both sides of those dynamics. So whether it's the woman that's showing up, we've been able to work in a way that she's become more respectful of a partner and more aware of his needs. Or, you know, working with the man as an individual, it's about understanding obviously what, how, how he needs to approach a subject, how he needs to ask for things. And quite often sometimes it's actually understanding what he wants because a lot of men come and, you know, women are reasonably clear quite often on what their goals are, what they want, how, you know, they've got like a vision for the relationship and men are just like, they know what they don't want and it's like, yeah, but what do you want? So, um, so it's— for a lot of men, it's actually finding, you know, what is it that you want? And, and that can be part of the, the large part of the job before we actually then figure out how we're going to get it.

So yeah, I'm smiling listening to you because there's so many parallels between what you're saying and what we say within our group, the DSO fraternity, and what I say to guys in one-on-one coaching, so forth. One of the biggest Things I say to a lot of men after hearing them complain and complain and complain, I let them vent and just go, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Well, I'll tell you what, David, what do you want? And what you get is a pregnant pause of, uh, and I say, David, if you can't answer that, we got a problem, buddy. You don't, you don't know what you want. How are you going to get there? And you're right, I love how you said they know what they don't want. They don't want this angry woman, they don't want this sexless marriage, they don't want to feel like they're forgotten. Well then, okay, I guess we could start at the end there, what you don't want. But you do need to somewhat take a lead, show some boundaries, and figure out what the hell it is you want, dude, in this whole thing. Um, yeah, there's so many ways to take this conversation. The Forgotten Father is such a multifaceted subject and one that, um, I love the branding of it. It's perfect. The Forgotten Father. It's not one I've used. Is that something you've made up yourself?

Yeah, it was perfect.

Perfect. Yes, very well done. Um, and it's something that pretty much 10 out of 10 men will have some familiarity with. Um, I was telling you earlier, uh, I had a story where that perfectly illustrates the Forgotten Father. Is that, uh, we had, uh, my fourth and last child with wife number two. This was our one and only child about 2.5 years ago, and my wife had some difficulties during the birth— preeclampsia. She had back surgeries about a couple years before the birth, so she had that to contend with and everything else, and it ended up having to have a cesarean. And I was basically just a piece of furniture in the room during this whole process. You know, in the hospital room, just watching the people coming in and out, go get her water or ice or whatever it is she needed, and helping her out, helping her feel more comfortable. But as far as the medical staff was concerned, I did not exist. And to— and it brought back a lot of memories of marriage number one and the three kids, because there was years in between my last kid, marriage number one, and, and this kid, a good, uh, 10-some years. So it started bringing back memories of, oh, I remember this feeling, this whole forgotten piece of furniture feeling. And, uh, there was one moment where the doctor was talking to my wife and saying some things, and, and I didn't quite understand something, and I was behind him as he was facing her talking. And I said something to the effect of, when you said this, doctor, what— and he jumped because he's like, where did that come from? And he turned like, oh, hey, Dad? Well, all right. And he answered my question. We all chuckled, and I realized they literally did not see me. And it wasn't just— it wasn't, you know, me anxious thinking going out of hand. No, they quite literally were so hyper-focused on Mom at that time. I wasn't there, but I understand that, you know, she's the one with all these issues. She's the one pushing out a child, for goodness sakes. I— my job was, quote, done as far as this baby-making process, you know, some 9, 10 months earlier. But, um, That was indicative of what's to come, basically. If as a man you don't push against it, if you sit back and just let the waves of all this— you know, I guess we could say what we're seeing here is, is the fleshing out, if you will, of a very natural process, which is one of, you know, the timeline of the relationship is your honeymoon phase, this courtship phase. This highly sexualized, um, for men, this is the, the best thing in the world phase of the relationship, the pre-kid phase. And, um, the, the purpose of that, according to Mother Nature, so we procreate. Now we're procreated, and according to Mother Nature, all of your energy should be focused on keeping this little thing alive. And you do have a job, um, you know, we look at the, the history of mankind. What's your job, Mr. Man, in this role? Well, procure resources as mother, uh, nurses child keep the predators at bay, make sure everything's good. Nowhere, I guess, in that programming that nature gives us does it say, and be a good, sweet, attentive guy who goes, you know, shopping for strollers or prams, as you call it, and wants to talk about the color of the nursery. So in essence, we're very, we're very programmed to, you, man, go beat it. Your job's done. You made the baby. Go do stuff. Bring resources. And then here's Mr. Man saying, can we go back to the honeymoon stage at least a little bit? And no, no, that's not how this works. And that's kind of laughed at by some people in, you know, the general society and the way we look at it. But it's not a joke for men. It's just one in a little piece of the puzzle of what makes us feel like the forgotten dude.

And I think— yeah, I was gonna say, and I think a lot of that is related, like all the way back to the conditioning that men receive. And I see it, you know, I mean, like I said, my children are only like 6 and 10, and I already see how society is pushing them forward to be this man that fits in a particular type of box. And so the fact that men aren't encouraged at all to express themselves, to ask for help, to you know, they're very much told that they need to just get on with it, be stoic, you know, don't have any emotions, you know, and what that does is, you know, when they get to a particular place where they feel quite isolated because their partner was previously, you know, before birth, the sort of sole source of connection and intimacy and, and, you know, emotional support and physical intimacy, and then all of a sudden that like disappears and dries up and men are sort of like left, oh my goodness me, you know, where am I and who am I? And, you know, and there's this— and I think all of that, what that does for men is when they get to this place of becoming a father, they don't know where to go for help. They don't know where to go for support. And they can feel extremely isolated on the fringes, not knowing Um, yeah, just completely isolated and on the fringes. And I think for a lot of men it doesn't even come into their head, the idea of, of seeking out support. I mean, when I have men come to me, um, for like the one-on-one support, one of the things that I do is encourage them to go and get support from men's groups, um, so that they can build up that relationship and have that source of support from, from other men. So it's not solely dedicated to their partner. So I know that you have, um, a men's group that, that does that. Um, and yeah, so it's like directing men to the ones because, you know, I support men who aren't fathers as well. So it's directing them to the, to the groups that are going to be most supportive to them.

And we have men from all over. The DSO Fraternity, for those listening, watching, this is the name of the group that we have, private group just for men. Uh, but let me go back to, and I agree 1,000% with everything you just said, but what's interesting is let's explore a little bit the origins of this overwhelming theme of men suppress emotionality, men, stoicism is the key to your— this, this thought didn't just come out of nowhere. You know, it's not what they say, stereotypes don't just fall from the sky. There's usually a, there's a, there's an origin story to these things. And what's often is when you ask men, Who was it that told you you need to be so cold? Avoidant is the psychologist's term in as far as your attachment style. Why do you keep people at length? Why do you value your independence so much over interconnectedness and vulnerability? And what a lot of them say is, I was at one time kind of a vulnerable person. I was at one time— I put my heart on my sleeve and I really emotionally rolled over and exposed my belly. To the world, more specifically to a woman in my life, and she broke my heart. Sometimes— and I hear, I see this, women that comment on my videos and other material— I don't know if it's a cultural shift or if it's just women have more of a voice to, to express some inner thoughts, but I've heard some women of all, all backgrounds, socioeconomic, from all over the world say Yeah, there is something to the whole when a man is a little quote unquote weak. I don't know.

Oh my God, I knew, I knew that you were going to say that the moment, the moment that you, um, the moment that you started saying about people responding underneath, because I see it myself and I just, and I cringe at those replies because yeah, it does, it shuts men down. And the thing is, it's that, it's that whole conditioning because it's not just the men that are receiving that message, it's the women as well. Like as as a society as a whole, we receive the message that, um, vulnerability in men is weak. And actually, vulnerability in any human being is a strength because it's really freaking difficult to do.

Yeah, it's in essence saying, let me show you what's inside regardless of what your reaction may be. In essence, to put a more masculine spin on it, I really don't care. This is— I'm gonna cry or whatever because something is very much bothering me. I just lost somebody. Oh, you react in a poor way? Well, guess what? That's on you, Mr. and Mr. and Ms. Yeah.

And because we've, you know, boys from a very young age— I mean, women do as well, but not to the same extent of boys. Like, you know, "Big boys don't cry." There's very much that message, you know? And I tried so hard with my own boys to encourage them to cry. But, you know, my eldest, he— He listens very much to what's happening, you know, to how other people respond. And even though we've always encouraged emotions and where are you feeling it in your body? I mean, my youngest, he's great. He had like this morning I cut an apple up that I wasn't supposed to and he stood there and screamed and I just like held space for that upset because he was so, so upset. And I just like stayed grounded and listened and allowed him to voice that. But my eldest has really listened to, you know, he falls over and then the person says, oh, well done, don't cry, don't cry, big boys don't cry. And it's, and it's, and it's, it's just so damaging. And like, you know, like you said, there are women who believe that as well. And for the men who have opened their heart to a woman and she has not been able to hold space for that, I would definitely say she's not the right woman and you probably need to go and find one who is. Able to hold that because it's not, you know, and women find that with some men as well. You know, women will be vulnerable and open up and a lot of men can then close, close down from that, you know, because they don't know what to do with this emotion. Because, you know, men tend to have like this— do you say the word banter in the US? I'm not quite sure, but they have like— yeah, yeah. So they have like this way of bonding is like through banter, you know, not through emotional intimacy, let's say, or of sharing of their situation. Not as much anyway as, as for example with women. Um, but yeah, on either side, if you can't show up vulnerably, whether you're a man or a woman, then you do need to question whether or not that relationship is going to be healthy and supportive for you. Um, because there are women out there who, you know, can hold space for a man who— a man's vulnerability. And there are men out there who can hold space for a woman's vulnerability. And I think that's what emotional maturity is being able to be present with other people's emotions, knowing that their emotions aren't really anything to do with you. It's just them expressing their own experience. And, um, and yeah, like I said, I think that can, can take place on both sides as well.

But here's the difficulty, um, who I attract to my material, the Dad Starting Over world, is a lot of men that would be categorized as very anxious in nature, very anxious, attachment. They hold on and they'll do anything and everything to keep the relationship going, even enduring abuse and all kinds of dysfunctional behavior. Um, a lot of those men have been uber, um, emotional and really let it out and have been hurt. Um, a lot of those men lack— and I don't know if this is the proper term, it's not necessarily scientific term— but that is emotional intelligence. Or to maybe super simplify it, they don't have a lot of, um, socializing experience. Um, they probably have very little in terms of romantic experience. They don't know the dividing line between healthy vulnerability and, oh my gosh, are you okay? And, uh, they cross the line into whoa territory, whether it's with men, women, or whatever, and it's a turnoff. Well, then those guys say, well, see, right away you're telling me I can't be vulnerable. I can't show my emotions. Yes, you can. But, sir, and this is the, this is the example I often give, and a lot of women agree with this. If I have a man who comes home and says, something happened at work, it looks like our entire team is getting fired. We have 3 months. We're going to get 3 months of pay and then done. So I need to find a new job. And wife, I'm as scared as you are right now, but this is what I have planned. I've already got some calls into some other people and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Just, I need you to support me and be there for me, and we can do this as a team. Here's what I need from you. And women are just like— they're scared. And women are saying, okay, this is an emotional thing. Um, I'm a little— the ground just is shaky under my feet right now, but I can see he's on top of things, and I can see that we're going to get through this. Okay. Versus a man who comes home and just starts crying and just starts wailing, and he's inconsolable. And she's like, what the hell's going on? Who died? Oh, I got fired. We're going to lose— and we're going to lose everything, and the kids are— we're going to have to take them out of private school, and you're going to leave me. I know you're going to leave me. And very— that's vulnerable. But to the— there's a tipping point, and then it goes into, oh my gosh, I don't know if I can trust this man anymore. Look how life just kicked him between, you know, between the legs, so to speak, and he's folded. I have to know if he has to be able to endure. This goes for men and women, but it seems to be more pushed on the men as far as this stoicism, the, the ability to endure. And what a lot of men say is, I don't know where that dividing line is. I've never been taught that dividing line. I've never been taught the strength in, uh, vulnerability. I don't know how to be vulnerable and strong at the same time. I just go from 0 to 100 miles per hour in my emotionality, and that has turned off a lot of people in my world. And I've lost friends over it, I've lost loved ones over it. So they take the easy road, which is, well, I guess no emotion ever, period. Anyway, I'm done with relationships, I'm out, I'm just gonna go to my apartment and play video games all Um, so it's difficult, and often what I tell guys is that gets better with time, therapy, understanding things, or feeling out the relationship game with men and women alike, working more with men, the men's groups that we talk about, DSO Fraternity and others. Um, this is, like I say, it's a, it's a difficult subject, and it's not one that is, uh, so cut and dry. Um, we have to tell our men It's okay to cry. Seriously, you're a human being, for God's sakes. You're going to cry. You're going to have bad moments. You're going to have terrible moments. You're gonna— you want to be able to know that you have a partner that you can lean on. But there are going to be people in this world that are going to look down on you for that, and it's a double standard. They're going to look down on you more so because you're a man. Sorry, that's just the way it is. You're going to get hurt. It's kind of like, um, you don't have to be a, a ripped Adonis in the gym and super muscular to be attractive. Um, there are plenty of men who get plenty of women and they're not that much to look at physically. But I tell you what, you do increase your chances somewhat if you dress well and you're attractive and you're fit and you're confident and you stand upright. And yes, if you have a little bit of muscles, that's a good thing. Well, then men say, well, all women want is super muscular Adonis. I might as well go back. Okay, you're missing the nuance here. There's a middle ground somewhere. So it's, it's difficult to navigate. And what makes this doubly difficult, going back to the forgotten father thing, when I talk to men, one of the first things— the reason men talk to me 9 times out of 10 is because I have relationship problems. Things are stinking in my current relationship, or I'm divorced and I'm starting over because of my past relationship problems. And one of the first things I do is try to get a gauge or feel for where things went wrong. And so, Mr. Husband, by your estimation, where did things go wrong? When did the wheels fall off the bus, or whatever American term you want to put there? And they will often say, probably around the time we had kids. That's when we did. And okay, well, when you dig into it further, sure enough, if they were to use your vernacular, they would say, I became the forgotten father, and it just shook the ground underneath my feet, and I never quite recovered from that, and all kinds of bad stuff happened as a result. And, uh, Often it is not, um, you, sir, haven't, uh, uh, put up boundaries. You, sir, haven't dealt with this very common, uh, arguably natural phenomena in the right way. Often a lot of these men come to the conclusion of, oh man, I really married the wrong person. This was a bad move on my part. And I saw a lot of indications of that over the last 10, 20-some-odd years. And I've dutifully ignored them because I'm— I've been told, like you alluded to it, I've been told all these years, set aside your feelings. You have a job to do, Mr. Man. Who cares about what you think, feel, whatever in the situation? You're a man, suck it up. And it bites him in the butt, as we say. Is that what you hear? Obviously, you came up with this phrase with the Forgotten Father. I would assume this is a common phenomenon that you see as well. In your world. The relationship, uh, it becomes totally different. It goes from relationship A to B. The kids seem to be the dividing line. It just changes everything.

Yeah. So, and the thing is though, it— like, I think the children are more like the catalyst because the issue is actually really, if you take it like a step back, the problem is the inability to communicate, to be vulnerable, but, you know, to have conversations about how things are going to look, you know, what's going to happen when the the baby arrives, you know, the man looking to get involved and the woman encouraging him to be involved. So, and, and the baby arriving just sort of like shows sort of that the gaps that were, were there. Um, and if it hadn't been a baby, it's likely that some other change in their relationship would have create— would have unearthed these, um, situations. Because like the crux of it is like as a society, it's how we are viewing men, you know, whether it— as we've already said, whether it's a woman viewing how a man should be showing up because that's how society's taught us, or how a man feels he should be showing up because that's how society taught us. And, you know, the thing is as well, and as you were talking, it reminded me of the thing that you were saying about being in the hospital and sort of being there and the doctor just noticing And, you know, for a lot of men, there's this feeling of powerlessness, helplessness as they're watching everything happening to their partner. And once you have that sort of instilled in you as that's my role as a father, then it can— it almost continues, you know, this kind of—

sets the tone. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Yeah. And then, you know, how that affects the intimacy later on as well. And, you know, issues around sex. Because what happens is, for a lot of, um, and I think this is another thing that you mentioned earlier, what happens is for a lot of couples is that intimacy goes. You know, men normally rely on that, as I said before, rely on their partners for like the sex and for the emotional connection. When that's removed, you know, a lot of men don't have anywhere to go for that, um, and, um, can feel really disconnected. And especially when you put into that, if the men that working with have an anxious attachment in the mix, you know, that fear of abandonment just gets heightened. And that, in essence, is what's happening for the men, you know, often that you're working with. Baby comes along, mum doesn't have— or partner doesn't have as much time to spend with her, um, with, with the dad. And so, you know, that feeling of abandonment kicks in. So that's where those 3 qualities that I mentioned before, those 3— not qualities as such, but behaviors that I mentioned you know, the desire to get their partner's attention. And that's where it all comes in. So you have this like mix, shall we say, of lots of different circumstances all created by this one catalyst. Because I want to be really careful that we don't like point the finger at the child.

Exactly. You're right. It could have been— the catalyst could have been any kind of what I say, excuse my language, a giant holy shit moment. Um, you know, I, I was diagnosed with cancer and ever since then things went downhill. Um, or it could be, uh, our marriage actually flourished after the birth of our child and then, um, we lost our child. The child died, passed away. That's the biggest one of how quickly the— because you're right, it just exposes wounds and it's something a lot of people can't endure. And for some The introduction of a new little human that I am in charge of for the next so many years of my life is a giant holy shit moment for them, and they don't cope very well. And to pile on top of that, pointing at the ladies, okay, you have been extremely overwhelmed with all these feelings of responsibility and anxiety around the child. And then here's Mr. Man over here saying, don't forget about me. That doesn't go over well. Don't you realize, Mr. Man, these millions of things swimming around in my head right now, all orbiting around the world of baby, and here you are here going, I have needs that aren't being met. You can just go to hell right now and leave me alone. That's, that's the predominant theme that a lot of men hear, and it shames us into having those feelings. And as you well know, a man that is emasculated, set aside, made to feel less than, you, you you pointed it out, will act out sometimes passive-aggressive ways, snotty ways, or even really aggressive, aggressive ways to push to things like infidelity. Um, one of the most surprisingly— if you looked at who is it amongst men that commit infidelity, um, your chances of, as a man, committing infidelity go up— I can't remember the, the number— 30-some-odd percent more or something like that if you're a stay-at-home father. How interesting is that? They don't feel like they have much of a purpose, even though obviously they do. They're running the household and the kids and everything else, but, um, they feel emasculated. I'm— I want to be CEO of whatever, but my wife is, and my wife's going to business meetings and so forth, and I feel less than.

And I'm wondering if— and I'm wondering if that is more like society's idea of, of what a man's purpose should be rather than a man's idea of purpose, because You know, there's a book by, um, um, called The Boy Crisis by— is it William Farrell? I can't remember. Yeah, that's it. And he talks about, you know, the fact that men were, um, the provider or the warrior. And so it was very clear sort of men's role in society. Now women don't, in inverted commas, need men the same because there's YouTube videos on how to like repair something in the house and Furniture's flat pack, then the instructions are reasonably easy. And, you know, like, you can get a career that pays for that, you know. So, you know, there's this idea a lot of women have, and it's really quite dangerous, is that, you know, men aren't needed. And then, you know, men are listening to that and taking that on board and don't have this, like you say, sense of purpose. The purpose in the past was always connected to income, bringing in the money, or like going out to fight, going out to war. And so the problem is here that because as a society also, you know, the idea of staying at home and caring for the child isn't given the importance that it should do. If a man is choosing to stay at home and be with the child, society generally doesn't consider that the stay-at-home parent to, to be important because women experience that a lot. You know, a lot of finger pointing, oh, she's just staying at home because she doesn't want to work. And, you know, I imagine that the men that are staying at home are experiencing from society that their role and value is less than. So, you know, that's really difficult. And it's a huge sense of purpose. And in Farrell's book, he talks about the fact that John Lennon, with it, I think it's his second child, chose to stay at home to bring up their son, the second child. So his partner, the Japanese lady, I can't remember her name. Yoko Ono, is it? She could go out and she could go out and work. And that was John Lennon's, you know, purpose, and that's what drove him. And so maybe if we supported generally stay-at-home parents, that that was a valued purpose, then the stay-at-home dads would feel, um, yeah, some value around that. And then it's coming back to also, you know, for what I was saying around women not needing men, one of the things that I say to women is everybody wants to be needed. Like, yes, on paper you don't need a man, but if you want to have a relationship with one, then he needs to feel needed. So whether that is, you know, can you help me with this, can you help me with that, you know, because men do like to feel needed and that, you know, like 'Oh, is that— can you not open that jar? Let me help, you know, here's my muscles coming along.' But, you know, they just, um, and giving them those opportunities to, to bring something to the relationship in that way, you know, if you're the person as a woman earning more money, giving men the opportunity to show up, um, and have a purpose in the relationship. So my wondering those stay-at-home dads, is it because of staying at home, or is it the value that we have for stay-at-home parents? And also, how needed do they generally feel in their relationship? So that would be what I would want to investigate if I was speaking to those couples.

Well, there is the phenomenon— I don't know if that's the right term— relationship trait which is universal around the world, cross-cultural, is that when we look at what is it that is seen as a point of attraction, maybe if you want to put it that way, what makes a man viewed as, as, as more important or valuable? And the one thing that comes up again and again cross-culturally, whether it's an African tribe or wherever, is status or status. He is a person of import. People look up to him. Um, I have heard out of women's mouths and men as well, and this is such a common thing, uh, is social function. Wife who is a successful executive is there with her stay-at-home husband, and sure enough, inevitably comes up with drinks in hand. So, Bob, What do you do for a living? Which is the social barometer for let's see what kind of status you have, mister. And he goes, I'm a stay-at-home father. And the reaction is usually, oh, good, good for you. And it's— it ends there. And then Bob's wife, what do you do for a living? I'm vice president of sales with Acme Company. Oh, wow. That's, that's pretty big. Tell me more. Do you travel? And away they go. In other words, um, your status as a domestic creature, Mr. Man, is— now, double standard. Woman says, I'm a stay-at-home mother. Oh, high five, good for you, moving on. But I'll tell you what, it's becoming more and more common these days that women feel slighted for, I'm a stay-at-home mother. I, I, I, I, I need to offer more to the world than that. I need them— I need my own mission, damn it. I'm not just this some domestic creature that stays home all day with some toddlers. There's, there's more to who I am. And I think, um, men are now relating to all these women who said that. Then the roles reverse and the man's just like, I feel like I need more than this. I need more of a mission than this. Another day of laundry, another day of dishes, another day of taking the kid to ballet and doing this and doing that. There is a period that I see with some men who take on that role is they will kind of hyper-masculinize the role. And they will regiment it, and they will pride themselves on the fact by 10:30 every day, damn it, they are done with all the work that my wife used to complain about. And I'll show her, and I'll be like, check, check, just checking things off the list. And look at me, and it's 10:30 and I'm done. And they— every— and I even made the meals for the week, boba. And because they have a sense of accomplishment of this— I have a mission and I have things to do, this is great— and that becomes routine, becomes so hum, and they realize there's just not much to this anymore. I need more out of life than this.

And, you know, they can still be a stay-at-home dad and have a sense of purpose and value in society as a whole by maybe leading a Fathers group, you know? And yeah, so having— yeah, you can increase your status in so many different ways, you know, because status doesn't need to be work-related. Like, Because if I think about, you know, myself and, you know, men that I have dated and stuff like status for me wasn't so much like what they did for work specifically. It was how they were showing up in their own life or in their community. That to me was like more of the status because, you know, I date men who were, yeah, by society's standards, like high status. But they'd be like, idiots. And I just think that's not important to me, you know. And then there's somebody else who might just have like an average job working for the government, but they had a sense of purpose in, you know, maybe how they were showing up for particular groups of people in society. And that was attractive, like, you know, how they were showing up and supporting other people. Yeah, the sense of purpose, you know, because sometimes a career isn't so much a sense of purpose. You sort of like, it can become like an ego-driven, um, desire, whereas purpose for me isn't so much about ego-driven. It's like what you're giving to society and how that's feeding back to you as well. It's like this, um, yeah, um, this, yeah, giving back and receiving.

So Yeah, a deeper, a deeper feeling of purpose and meaning, as opposed to, look, I have an extra zero at the end of my, my paycheck. Doesn't that mean something? Well, not necessarily. Well, but you're looking at it from a very altruistic kind of deeper meaning, softer approach. And a lot of men like me will say, that sounds great on paper, but I tell you what, been there, done that. And the extra zeros at the end of your paycheck It is not the key to happiness.

No, makes it easier.

Yes, makes things a lot smoother in, in your life. Yeah, absolutely. I've been broke, it's not fun. And I've, I've been a broke guy who has really been a really great dad and has helped out with homework and coached every team, and, but still broken. I have the heaviness on my shoulder and everything, as opposed to a guy who's successful businessman It's a world of difference. Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of men that I speak to are also what you would call the neurodivergent category, which for many of the men I talk to, the flavor of neurodivergence, if you will, or neurodiversity is the more politically correct term, is ADHD, attention deficit. And a lot of them are not good at working for others. And they're very entrepreneurial, and that's where they get their, their sense of, uh, mission completion is doing businesses and so forth. So when those guys are thrust into, by virtue of some life happenstance, they're now the stay-at-home father, they, they don't do well, not at all. Um, so some people are wired for it and some people are absolutely not wired for it, men and women alike. Uh, my wife is a surgeon, surgeon, and she's a pediatric surgeon, so she actually cuts up little kids. And, um, she doesn't like it when I minimize her role as cuts up little kids, but, um, she would be the first to tell you I'm not wired to stay all home, home every day, all day with a toddler. Um, my purpose, mission, other thing— this is my thing. A couple days here and there, you know, because kid is sick, I love it, I cherish it, but I know that there's always this other thing there That is my thing. That's the thing I've worked towards all those years. That's how she's wired. Great.

Um, and she's kept that sense of— that she's kept that sense of identity. And that's, you know, when you become a parent, it is like, how can I keep a certain element of my identity? Or how can I, you know, transition? And because you were, you were saying before, like, about, um, women and it, you know, to being that mother role, how can I then tap into the other archetypes as well? So not just the mother archetype, but, you know, the seductress archetype. And, you know, so, and the same for men, you know, how can I show up in all of the different multifaceted ways that are available to me? Because I think we can lose our sense of self very much when we become parents. It is important that we do focus on the children, but we also need to be very mindful of ourselves and our own growth. And then also, you know, there's still the relationship between the two parents as well that needs to be maintained.

That, that's a whole— we could talk for hours on that, but that's, uh, the crux of, uh, the book I wrote, The Dead Bedroom Fix, and a lot of the content I put out there is couples cannot lose each other. Like I say, there's this very natural inclination to separate in that way at a lover basis, erotic basis, whatever you want to call it, that easily dissipates, dare I say naturally dissipates, and you kind of have to fool or fight against the system and pull you guys closer together. Otherwise it easily fizzles. And, uh, you know, I don't know about over there on your side of the pond, but there is a very large contingent on this side in America culturally of shaming both men and women out of trying to force it back together as a couple. No, no, no, your primary job is one of parent. And if you veer in any way from that, and that could be in, in terms of wife, you and I are going to go away for a weekend. Grandma has the kids. They're old enough. Everything's fine. You will have— usually that mother will have a chorus of her friends in her social circle saying, are you sure you need to be away from the kids for 2 days? Oh, I don't know. That's— I have never been away from my kids, and my kids are 16 and 17 years old. I've never left them. I'm a better parent for doing that. That. Or, my kids slept in our bed until they were 13 years of age. And all these kind of things that just make me personally go, oh wow, um, having grown up in a European— my mother being from Spain, I was born in Germany, and my wife's from Germany. So we kind of look at this as it's a very oddly hyper-parenty kind of, uh, American culture. I don't know if you, if you see that over there.

Um, in Europe you can get a certain element of parents that, yeah, become a martyr. And I've written an article actually, um, on my website, Martyrdom in Motherhood. So a lot of women who sort of— yes, that like sort of completely give up their identity to, to, to, you know, to just be a parent. And there's something I always talk about with everybody is, you know, because some people say my children are my priority, and it's like It will— for me, that depends because, you know, if, if their dad is going— because I'm separated from, from the children's father, we still live together. So that's a choice that we've decided to, to co-parent and live in the same house. We both have our own partners outside of that.

Yeah.

Um, for another podcast maybe. So we both have our partners outside of that, but, um, you know, we live together. The children are here. If, if he's in crisis for whatever reason, you know, it might be that at that moment in time my children are not the priority, because if their dad isn't emotionally well and healthy and stable, then how can he support the children anyway? You know, it's like, I know we say with the oxygen mask, like everyone knows that airplane one, that you put your own first. And yeah, exactly that, you know, sometimes you need to put yourself first, or you need to put one of the parents first. Because they need that support to then be able to show up for the kids. So, you know, priority— it's not that one person has priority over the other. It's like, in this moment, what's the priority?

So, yeah, well, but it is how it is framed often, at least in my circle. I see with the comments and messages I get is one of who is it that is fighting to bring us back together as a sexual couple, if you will. Is very often the husband because he has this, let's be frank, pretty strong urge still. And here is wife fighting against that effort to come forward. And she frames it as— and to her defense, she's probably 90% of the way there correct— is that he's not wanting to better connect with me at an emotional, romantic, if you will, deeper level. This guy just wants sex again. That's why he's trying to bring us closer together, gosh darn it. And so I'm going to be resistant to that because my job primarily is one of mother.

Again, with a lot of men. I am not 100% sure on that. Like, that's how the women might experience it. But with the men that I've worked with around sex and the forgotten father, no, because the sex has become so far removed. From— like, some men just want to be able to, to look into their partner's eyes and feel love. Like, that, that is the goal for some men, you know. Or to be able to sit on the sofa and have a cuddle. Like, they become so disconnected that sex even isn't on the agenda, just something physical and some intimacy. And I do think we get— women have this idea that, like, he just wants sex and Yeah, to a certain extent it's true because sex has been the way that men have experienced physical intimacy from women. But really deep down, when you unpick it all, it's not actually like the physical insertion into the vagina. It's the closeness, the physical closeness.

I mean, it's sad how often I hear from men when, you know, what is it that you want? And eventually they get around to some— it's heartbreaking. It'd be nice if when I came home from work every now and then she would just hug me and ask me how my day was. It'd be nice if, you know, when I'm in the kitchen washing dishes or doing something, she just does what she used to do, give me that little peck on the cheek and say, you look, you look good in those pants. I miss those little things. None of that involves, you know, taking off a stitch of clothing or doing anything else. But yes, there is that overwhelming desire. It's got— you're caught in this vicious circle. Of I need the, the sexual connection and the release. I'm a human male, for goodness sakes, there's nothing wrong with that. But at the same time, I need that, um, that emotional connection and so forth. And the wife's saying, the only reason you want the emotional connection is to get to the finish line of this. I, I can see through your, your, your, your ways here, mister. I know what you're trying to get at. Um, so, uh, uh, so the man's caught in this little catch-22, I guess, is the term. So where to begin? And often I will tell men, um, to have the healthy version of the talk. And often the healthy version of the talk is precipitated with, before we go there, it's not just me trying to have sex with you, okay? So if it helps your wife, we can eliminate that from the equation completely, okay? I'm just trying to reconnect with you, damn it. We haven't gone on a date in 7 months. Remember, we used to sit on the couch and just— what happened to that? That's what I'm looking at. And worst case scenario, the wife may say, that's not us anymore. And you're like, oh, every now and then they hear that. And yeah, you can't even meet me, you know, here's the finish line, you can't even go this far. No, that, that part of our world is done. Often these women, as you know, Mr. Super Duper Anxious is attached to Mr., Miss Super Duper Avoidant. Yeah, and that's a huge gap that they have to fill there between the two of them to bridge that gap. I know you need to run, so website for those, I will put it in the description wherever it is you guys are listening to this or watching this or whatever, uh, because you do have a spelling that I'm sure a lot of people get wrong. Carla Crivaro, C-R-I-V-A-R-O.com, carlacrivaro.com. Uh, yeah, we should do this again because as you can see, these conversations can go down like a million different roads and we could spend hours and hours on them. But, um, thank you so very much, Carla. I appreciate it a great Yeah, thank you for having me, Ralph.

I think when we first even immediately connected a few months ago, you know, I think we spent like an hour and a half, 2 hours just like chatting. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, it'd be great to come back, um, just because there were so many different threads and I thought, oh gosh, that's a completely different podcast in itself.

So that's how these go, deep, deep topics. Carla, thank you so very much.

Thank you.

All righty.