Why “Nice Guys” Lose Their Wives (w/ @DrGloverOfficial)

That's right.

So it is beautiful.

There you go. Well, the gentleman with me here today is Dr. Robert Glover. He is the author of one of the most popular self-help books ever written for men called No More Mr. Nice Guy. That's what you are most known for, but you've done plenty of other stuff. That's just the, the thing that everybody knows you for is that book because you've sold— is it safe to say millions at this point?

I, I don't have exact counts, but it Best guesstimate is probably over a couple million.

Wow. And in the world of writing books, that is not a simple task. It's— you always hear about these people, bestselling book, New York Times bestseller. You don't realize that's like point whatever percent of all the authors that have ever lived reached that level of success. So that's a huge deal.

Well, it's even more probably significant is the book's been out for 25 years and still going, going strong and selling, you know, most books, even really popular books, don't, you know, they have, they have their shelf life. They come and go.

Yeah, totally.

You know, my agent told me, oh, a couple, 2, 3 years ago, he also, he mainly agented, repped fiction books, but he also repped Eric Burns' Games People Play, Transactional Analysis. And he said, No More Mr. Nice Guy's way outsold. Wow. He said it's the best-selling nonfiction book ever. So, you know, most people have heard of Transactional Analysis, Games People Play, But so even No More Mr. Nice Guy, you know, I think, oh yeah, I've heard of that book. I read that book back in grad school years ago. So, um, it, it, it, it seems to have struck a nerve and continues to be relevant today. So, um, I'm, I'm, I'm really proud of that.

As you should be. Good for you, man. And, uh, you're one of the few that I look up to in this, in this world. So, and for good reason. I mean, you've struck a nerve. You did an excellent job. When I read that book, it, it made me go, Holy shit, like a lot of guys do when they read it. You saw a lot of myself in that. And, um, a lot of people hear that though and say, nice guy, no more Mr. Nice Guy. You know, a lot of women, knee-jerk reaction is he's telling men to be assholes. And no, it's not a book about not being a kind man. It's a book about not being one of those guys that no longer has any boundaries, codependency, and all that good stuff. That's something that in the world of men seeking help, self-help, relationship-oriented material. A lot of us fall under that category of Mr. Codependent, zero boundaries, people-pleasing type of dude. So that's why you've sold so many of them. So many of us guys go, yeah, by virtue of our childhood, that, that's us.

Well, and it's interesting you mentioned, you know, women's knee-jerk reactions. When, um, when the book was published, when it came out in, in print in 2003, published by Barnes Noble, um, I think they were hoping that there would be a blowback that, that, you know, that maybe women will go, wait a minute, you know, why is, why is somebody writing a book teaching men to be not nice? There's enough not nice men out there. And quite honestly, I've gotten more, not even blowback, not even knee-jerk. I, I've gotten more negative response from men than women. But if you think about it, it kind of makes sense that if a woman actually reads through the book, she's going, I want this kind of guy. I remember I was dating a woman years ago and, um, uh, she, you know, I, I, well, after the first date or two, I let her know I'd written a book. So she read it and she, I remember she told me, she says, you know, I was reading that book going, you know, I, I want to date a guy like this. And then she goes, oh, I can date the author of this. You know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to the source. But women like the fact that I'm teaching men, you know, to, to be honest, to be authentic, to be transparent. Communicate clearly, to have good boundaries. And I was a marriage therapist for over 40 years. And, you know, all the stuff I'd heard women complain about from their men, I addressed that in No More Mr. Nice Guy. So I've only gotten a handful, literally a handful in 25 years, handful of negative responses from women. And in all of those, it was obvious they had not read the book. And in all of them, it was obvious that maybe their man read the book and left. And they write me this super long email telling me it's my fault that their man left. And I'm thinking, you know, you know, run, Forrest, run. Don't go back, you know. Yeah, keep going. But you know what, in terms of if there's a knee-jerk response, it's usually from men going, well, I can't believe you told me that my single mom couldn't do a good job of raising me, that I needed a father. You know, my mother was a saint in this. So, you know, it's more men that it makes uncomfortable because it's men that, that It calls men into question. It calls men into accountability. And, you know, not every man wants to be called into accountability. So, um, again, women go, I want— where can I find a guy like that? And, and the men are, you know, as you say, most men that read it that can relate to it go, yeah, that's me, holy shit. Um, but there's a few that, um, you know, don't like being called into accountability.

Yeah, it's, it's, uh, very uncomfortable having the mirror in front of your face saying, uh—

sure can be.

Well, there's a double-edged sword here. It's one of A lot of the stuff that you put up with, endured as a young man, it was no fault of your own. You shitty parents, shitty upbringing, all this other stuff. But how you've dealt with it over the years, how you've faced it, how you've been in denial over it, and how that's, uh, morphed itself into some really unhealthy, toxic behavior on your part towards your partners, towards your friends, and all that other— that is on you, dude. And you can— there's a lot you can do to Flip that around and change it. And a lot of that is, yeah, I need to take some accountability for some of the stuff I bring to the table. It's not all women are whores and women are terrible and all this and that. It's like, no dude, set that stuff aside and look at yourself for once. Well, as we've talked about before, it's, uh, very addictive to take on the victim mentality and say it's the whole world against me. And there's a lot of that right now on the internet.

It is. You know, when, when men would come to me when I was in private practice years ago in Seattle before I moved down to Mexico, You know, I, I, you know, been seeing several clients a week in individual or couples counseling. I was leading 5 men's group a week. And, and basically when somebody come to me, a guy come to me and they're complaining about their girlfriend, their wife, this, that, or the other thing, whether it's a group or individual, I'd tell 'em, you've got 2 sessions to complain. Uh, and I'll listen. I'll, I'll hear everything you gotta say. 2, 2 sessions, whether it's group sessions in. But after that, if you're gonna keep working with me, No more victim, no more complaining. We start working on you. How are you contributing to this situation? How are you perpetuating the situation? How do you need to show up differently? What do you need to bring? And, and, you know, most men really like that. They, you know, most men have not been held accountable in a positive, loving way before. And because it's easy to play the victim, it's, it's, um, I call that nursery behavior. You know, a lot of men have never gotten out of the nursery. We still want to be coddled and told we're great and and, you know, play video games and doom scroll social media and smoke dope and order food from Uber Eats. And you always want everything pushed to us. We want everything easy. And accountability has not been part of most men's lives because most men haven't gone through any kind of masculine initiation, any rites of passage. So I'm always impressed when men step up and say, okay, hit me, you know, let's, you know, Give it to me straight. And that's why I love working with men is I can hit 'em with the big stick. You know that you, you can just be, you can go, what the fuck were you thinking? You can go, do you know how stupid that was? And men will go, yeah, yeah, I get it. You can do that with men. And I love that. And you know, once you have their attention, they go, okay, what do I need to do? And, and you know, I, I love that process.

I always try to soften it a little bit before I get into a guy, like a guy will be really telling me, oh, not me.

I just, I just whack him upside the head.

Well, I do the whole— now I don't mean to beat a man while he's down, you know, I'll preface it with that— when the guy's telling me all these woeful stories, or, um, I'm gonna pick on you a little bit here, dude.

I'll, yeah, I'll let them know that.

And what they always say is the wide-eyed lean forward, like, no, no, no, it's fine, no, tell me, please let me have it. Men want to know.

Yeah, we want to know what we're doing this now. Don't look too coddled. Yeah, yeah, again, I love that about working with men.

When I wrote the book The Dead Bedroom Fix about sexless marriages, I have some women that reach out to me to say, how can I share this book with my man and not hurt his feelings? How can I tell him this stuff without hurting his feelings? And I say, throw the book upside his head and say, hey dummy, read this. I can't do that. It's like, actually you can. That's kind of what the man— hey, don't literally hit him upside the head, but hold it in front of him going, I read this book and I think it would help you a lot, and I love you, and blah blah blah, you know, let me know what you think. And if he's a good dude, he'd be like, oh, okay, and he'll read it. If he's an asshole or if he's very insecure, he'll say, get that dumb book out of my face, I don't want to hear it, you dumb whatever. And then you could say you tried, but it's exhibit number whatever for he's maybe not the right guy for you. Which goes back to the original point you made of woman reaches out to you and says, my dude read your book and he took off, therefore your book is telling men to leave. I think anybody who's ever created any kind of self-help, self-improvement stuff will say they've been, they've been contacted by people that have said some semblance of that, which is, thanks to your material, my person left me, therefore material bad. It's like, you don't realize a lot of this self-help type stuff results in exactly that, which is what? The disintegration of a dysfunctional relationship. It was kind of broken to begin with.

Sometimes they were meant to end. But it's interesting, I've had a few people say, you know, you need to be really careful with this because, you know, the things you're teaching men, men can take it and run with it and use it in the wrong way. And I go, you know, this other really popular self-help book's called the Bible. People have taken that and misused it and gone on crusades and, you know, justified racism and killing homosexuals and, you know, you know, stoning women that had sex. And, you know, so I, I'm, I guess I'm in good company if people occasionally misuse You know, clear sound advice. Um, but yeah, in general, all the response I've gotten to No More Mr. Nice Guy has been, been positive. It's, it's really rare that I hear anything negative. And I don't know, I don't know if my publisher was disappointed in that because, you know, good blowback's good for, good for sales. Good, good, good for media coverage. Um, but you know, really there's nothing controversial about the book. You know, I'm talking to men about being honest and having boundaries and taking good care of themselves. And making their needs a priority and doing that in clear, overt kind of ways. And, you know, there's nothing at all radical about it. It's just, it's basically just good self-care.

But there is something that some people may have issue with, and that is that it's directed at whom? Men.

Men. Well, yeah, men don't need help. Men had— men have had all the power. We don't— there you go. And, you know, even Even that seems to be waning. You know, everything goes in waves. And I think we went through a period where any kind of male or masculine empowerment was seen as suspect. I was talking with some people at my house this weekend that I had my annual writer's retreat, and we're talking about the coach that we'd worked with for quite a few years, how we all knew each other from the same coach, same program. That I saw a book in the, or article in the Washington Post. It's probably been 4 or 5 years ago equating QAnon or whatever it's called, you know, the conspiracy theories with male empowerment or men's work. And it conflated them together with no, no real connection to them that, you know, the people storming the Capitol on January 6th are somehow related to men doing deep yogic work and you know, doing practices and, you know, David Deida kind of stuff. And even reference— they didn't reference my coach specifically, but referenced his website. And, you know, showed a picture of some men sitting on a rock. And the quote that they took off the website that they considered, you know, really heretical is that it said something like to women, you know, you've done the career thing, you've done this thing, but when you find that your heart is still, you know, longing for something more, more connection, more completeness. You know, it's basically deep, creating deeper connections with men. This writer, a woman, you know, it's kind of like, like that was heresy, that even just telling women that, you know, a career is not enough to satisfy them. And so, you know, that, that's about even just 4 or 5 years ago. And I, I actually think, and because most things are pendulum swings, I, I think it's almost old news now. To where, you know, does anybody really give a fuck? You know, that, that, you know, there's men's coaches out there working with men. Because I, I, I say now, when I started doing my work 35 years ago, there was not much out there, not many resources as a guy. I, I ended up in a 12-step group, so I got started, lucked into finding a good men's therapy group led by a woman psychologist. And, um, I, I found good resources, and there was, you know, the Robert Bly, you know, Iron John stuff. I went out in the woods and held a talking stick and beat a drum and said ho. But there wasn't much more than that for resources. Now I say you really can't swing a dead cat without hitting a men's coach. And it seems like everybody I know is a men's coach. And if they're not, they're, they're considering becoming a men's coach. And so now it's almost like there's so many, so many men's coaches, so many coaches on the internet now. It's almost kinda like, yeah, Okay. It's almost like, you know, commonplace. And you've probably seen that as well. You've been at it for a while. You know, for a while you were probably kind of a lone voice. Now you probably look around and go, oh, look at all the people, you know, talking about dead bedroom. Look at all the people that, you know, are offering programs just like mine.

And some of them came from my little world.

Yeah.

Graduated, so to speak, which is, it's great. It's awesome.

I'm okay with that.

But you're right. There is still somewhat of a pushback where if there's men coming together in some way, whether it's to help each other out emotionally, physically, whatever it is. That's a slippery slope towards male dominance, misogyny, and all kinds of awfulness to keep the woman down, step on the necks of women, and so forth. There is a dividing line though, and I'm man enough to recognize that, yeah, there's some guys out there that jump over that dividing line in a big, big way, and they can't open their mouth without saying women bad, men good, and they belittle all the— or minimize is the right word— minimize all the very common negatives of men and they maximize all the negatives of women. It's—

I think even that might be waning. I don't know. I'm not out there in the manosphere world, but you know what? So many men I talk to, excuse me, you know, they'll talk about, you know, most men find us, people like you and me, going through a crisis and often a relationship crisis. You know, for me it might be, well, they've never had a girlfriend or they've never been laid, or, you know, they can't, you know, ever, they go on 2 or 3 dates and the women disappear, or the guys that maybe they only keep a relationship for a couple years and they never, or a guy going through a divorce or dead bedroom. So men usually go looking for answers when, when, you know, relationship dynamics aren't working. You know, like, like we really want them to. And so a lot of the guys, you know, nowadays, of course, so they'll go on the internet, you know, go, go to ChatGPT and start asking questions. And so for a while there, so many men I connected with, yes, go, yeah, I kind of gave the red pill thing a try. I was into that, you know, it may, because it does make sense. There's a lot of things about it that make sense, but I found that even that with its extremes of vilifying women and weaponizing evolutionary psychology against women and, you know, putting men in hierarchies of blue pill and red pill and average frustrated chump and, you know, all that stuff. Most men that even kind of go have a period with red pill kind of come out the other side of it, swing the pendulum back to middle. Yeah, and maybe not even a swing of a pendulum, they just kind of go through it and then kind of just keep on going through because it, it can give some quick, easy answers up front, but it doesn't really create kind of a balanced view of, you know, hey, most of us men and women don't know what the fuck we're doing. We're bumbling our way through relationships. You know, I had a PhD in marriage and family therapy at 29 years old, and I've been married 3 times, and I've bumbled my way through every relationship I've had. They're not part of our human DNA to have long-term pair-bonded monogamous relationship between members of the opposite sex. It's just not— we're not wired for it. But our, our culture said, oh yeah, it's easy, just do it, you know. Oh, you— it's not easy? Well, there must be something wrong with you. And, and so that's when people come, what's wrong with me? How come I can't get a woman to talk to me? How come I can't get laid? How come I can't get women to stay? How come my woman's leaving me? How come she don't want to have sex with anymore? We think this shit should be easy. It's not. Um, we're trying to do something very unnatural, but, but we don't realize that.

And some people make it look easy. Is the— is the— they look at their buddy over here, whoever, it's like he just seems to be going through life like it's just marriage. They have to have fights and it's no big deal to him. And in a way they go, and they've been at it for decades and they seem to be just fine. Why can't I do the same? Damn it, there must be something wrong with me.

And, you know, and some people have better skills at it. Some people have less, you know, less attachment anxiety. Some people had better role models growing up. Some people get lucky. I lucked into my current wife. You know, I love her.

That's a big part of my success is luck. I put that out there.

I'll take it as luck. Cause you know, I hear guys that say, you know, I've struggled with women, my relationships were this. So I went and got myself clean and I just really elevated myself and I energetically attracted, you know, a woman, you know, high value woman to this and that. And I'm thinking. Horseshit. Because the guys that often say that, you know, 6 months to 2 years later, yeah, I think she was borderline, or, you know, this or that. You know, I, I'm with a woman who, you know, for the first year we didn't really even date. We just fucked every Saturday night. She came over to my house, we had sex, I gave her taxi money and babysitter money, sent her home. And after about a year she said, I like being with you. And I thought, Oh, well, wait a minute, wait a minute. That's not part of the plan. And I realized I like being with her. And this is a woman who's 22 years younger than me, was a single mom, working mom, and she grew up in poverty. And, you know, 8 out of 10 kids with an alcoholic father in Guadalajara, Mexico. We didn't speak the same language, right? She speaks Spanish. I spoke a little bit of restaurant Spanish. And, you know, everything said this shouldn't work. And we've been married 9+ years and we've had our issues, but she's accountable and she's a hard worker and she loves me to death and thinks I'm amazing. And she said, I'll never tell you no to sex. And, you know, I lucked into that. I wasn't looking for it. And I don't think I found it because I'd elevated myself to create, you know, the energetic, you know, uh, attraction to that. Cause she's a fucked up woman too. I mean, she's got more trauma than any woman should ever have to deal with. And she works on herself.

There you go. That's, that's everything.

And she's smart, and she's funny as hell, and sexy as hell, and she's a gym rat. And she, you know, I, I get— I lucked into it. And, uh, so I'll count my lucky stars on that one. But I'm still bumbling my way through it. So, you know, those are people that are listening to us and they're going, how come, how come my wife didn't want to have sex with me anymore? How come I can't even meet a woman? How come I can't talk to women? How come they don't stick around? We're, we're all just trying to figure our way through this. We're all clumsy lovers, men and women both. None of us. So let's let go of the victim thing and it's all their fault. And I'd be happy if it wasn't for them and just go, let's just work with what we got. Let's work with, you know, the hand we've been dealt and just, just keep learning from it. That's why I've been saying for years, conscious relationships are powerful personal growth machines. Because we're not wired to do what we're trying to do. So if we'll stay conscious because it's challenging, it'll grow us. So if we teach our relations, if we treat our relationships like they're the best teacher imaginable, the best masculine initiation available, I think we can then embrace the struggle and embrace the challenge and embrace the imperfection of the partners that we stumble into.

Very good. And some of us have a little bit tougher than others, like James here. I don't know if you can see the comments there. It should be on the right of your screen. Comments tab. A comments tab, you should be near the top. No biggie, I can read to you. James from Facebook says, uh, and James is a regular, um, commenter on my material. Hello, James, good to see you.

James, I can't see, I can't see the post, so if you, if you see one you like, James is not doing too well.

He says, how's it going, guys? I'm not doing great. Divorced a year. He is about to go to inpatient care for depression and anxiety, which has all been exacerbated by the divorce. I just feel lost and broken. I can't see time to heal. That's been the, the theme of James's, uh, replies. A lot of my material is like, I can't get over this. Wife left, um, and I'm still dealing. It's like it was yesterday. And day after day after day, and everyone is telling him, hey, time heals, you get over it, it is what it is, minimize contact with her and you'll eventually get over it. He's like, I just, I'm having a very difficult time with this, to the point where it sounds like he's going to go get some inpatient care for this. Brother, I hope you get better, um, you know. Do what the people tell you to do. Take a timeout, and maybe that's exactly what you need.

You know, it's tempting to just give, you know, quick, easy advice. We'll do this, it'll be okay. I mean, everybody wants— none of us like to see people in pain, you know. Oh, let's try this. You know, when my second marriage ended, I, um, I was deeply in love with a woman. The marriage sucked the entire 14 years. It was bad the entire 14 years, and I loved her. And it was a dead bedroom. I didn't know to call it that back then. She just announced on her honeymoon Moon. Aren't you glad now that we're married? We don't have to pretend to like sex anymore. And I was a nice guy. I can fix that. I can make it better. And, um, and, and she was verbally abusive, emotionally abusive, sexually abusive, physically abusive. Uh, she was addicted. She— I mean, there was— and, you know, I worked my ass off to try to, you know, make that marriage. And I brought all my own baggage to it as well. And I mean, I— and when I got out of that marriage I told myself, you know, I'm going to be pissed off, I'm going to be mad. I wasn't so much depressed, I was pissed off. And, you know, and maybe, you know, this guy is too, but he's not letting himself be pissed. And I went to 12-step groups, I'd go several a week, and I just say, I'm going to be mad, I'm going to be angry until I'm done being angry. It may take me 2 years, and it did. It took me probably a couple years of just being as angry as, as, you know. But the bottom line was I let this person treat me badly. I hung around and I had to finally reach a point of saying, okay, it's on me. And I went through depression, you know, actually I went through the depression while I was in the marriage. I went on antidepressants. Uh, she cheated on me about 3 years before I finally left. And, um, I, I, I, it was devastating. I, so I can get that devastation. And what I find was with many men that go through this kind of of devastation and depression. I mean, it's understandable. And often we're not deeply connected with other men. We tend to be kind of loners, isolated, not talking to men. Now, I don't mean going and just complaining week after week after week to other men. I mean really opening up and being vulnerable and letting them support us and love us and hold us accountable for taking actions that move us forward. Now, another thing I might throw out, I find that people that tend to have this kind of lingering depression often have what I call a ruminating brain, that their mind just loops over and over and over again, rehashing everything, you know, every perceived mistake, every regret. I wish I'd done that different. What's wrong with me? I must be a fuckup. And I, I've got a whole course on, on dealing with a ruminating brain because we just think everything our mind tells us is 100% accurate. Oh, I am a fuck-up, or she is a bitch, or she is that. But, but the truth is, it's just our brain repeating the same scenario over and over and over again. And if you kind of rehash the same perceived mistake multiple times a day for multiple years, you're going to feel like you're a fuck-up, that there's something wrong with you. That is depressing if you walk around thinking you're broken and you're fucked up. So I'm glad he's going to get, uh, the treatment. Hopefully get some good therapy, maybe get on some helpful medication to at least start him through the depression. I'm not a big fan of long-term use unless somebody just truly has chronic long-term genetically inherited depressive states. But for most men, just short-term on them to get us kind of our feet on the ground. Most of the time we can move on through the medications and You know, once we get our feet back on the ground, we start doing the things that empower us and start living life on our terms. But yeah, it can be painful to have somebody you love. And the funny thing is, I'm not funny, but ironic, paradoxical. Often the women that we feel the most hurt by were the worst women. Yep. They were abusive or unfaithful or, you know, hurtful to us. And the fact that we kept trying harder to get them to love us and treat us well creates something that I call a trauma-bonded relationship. And just we work harder and harder and harder. And it's like being in a car wreck over and over and over again. It just imprints that person and your need to get it back to good. Usually there were some moments where it was really good and we're constantly working to get it back to that good place. So we're working way too hard, being traumatized over and over and over again. And It actually creates a form of an addiction for that kind of person. And I know after I got out of my second marriage, that it was a trauma-bonded relationship. Um, nice, kind, easygoing women seemed boring to me. They weren't even interesting.

Every man comes to that realization. Every man in this kind of circumstance sees that eventually with their dating, is that this, this woman, Mary, who seems just comes from a good family and she's got a good head on her shoulders and we have great conversations, but I'm not turned on. By month 6, he's like, I don't think it's going to work anymore. What's wrong with Mary? I don't know, man. It's just, it's just not there for me. And he realizes she's too normal. She's too low drama. She's— without that, I don't feel comfortable. I don't feel normal. Chaos has been my life up to this point.

It's energizing. It is. It, it, it— yeah, I dated one woman and, um, I, I got out of my second marriage. I dated another woman that was on and off again for about 3 years. And so my nervous system was still kind of wired to to that dynamic. And, um, and, and, you know, as we dated, I told her about my history. She read, you know, she read my book. And, um, and then I broke up with her after about 3 months, and she asked me, am I just not crazy enough for you? And I said, that's possible. That's possible. I said, you know, that's on me. And she was— she checked off everything. I, I had to quit saying to her, on paper you check off, you know, you're great on paper. And I thought, that's probably not doesn't sound very loving, you know. Now on paper you match, but you know, in real life, in person, I just don't feel it. And, and she was a great human being, and I, I still care about her, and, and we stayed friends for quite some time after we broke up. Um, but yeah, it just, it just didn't turn me on. Oh, give me a moment. Whenever, uh, some delivery comes, my dog starts barking. They're hollering out front. There are people here that should be able to take care of it, but look at it go. Give me about 60 seconds, right?

No problem.

You can entertain the people. I will.

I'll start singing. No, I won't. I wouldn't subject you guys to that. Well, you got James follow-up to that, says, yes, I'm angry, I'm hurt, I keep cycling back and forth, you tried all the meds, etc. I am a loner as well. There you go, my man. Good call, doctor. Yeah, he's not, you know, speaking out of school here, dude. He's been at this for decades. He's, he's met lots of Jameses, and so have I. We have met our group, the Brotherhood. Learn more at help4men.com. You can jump right to the join page, James and others, help4men.com/join. In fact, why don't I shut up and just put that up on the, on the thing here. A bunch of men get together, but men from all over the world, and talk about this kind of stuff. James and others, you are not alone. When you feel alone with these kind of things, it just leads to a whole bunch of not good stuff. You have to— Robert walking back and forth— you have to know that there others that share in your pain, that there are others you can learn from. That's huge, guys that have been there, done that, James. And it gives you a sense of comfort, it gives you a sense of community. And we as human beings are wired for community. As much as us guys like to say, I'm a loner and I'm better by myself, it's a bunch of horseshit. You're just going to end up far worse off than what you could be if you just open yourself up, which is a difficult thing for guys to do, to open yourself up up in a vulnerable way and say, I need help. This is what I'm going through. What have you guys done? I can't tell you countless men I've talked to that once they take that step and go through the door, so to speak, and just say, I'm here for help, and then they get the help, they just feel so much better about themselves. Uh, Robert, we're talking to James here, and he, he admitted, um, what you said is right. He is a bit of a loner. He doesn't have other folk, other guys in his life. Um, Go to work, come home, be alone. I loop in my thinking as well. So yeah, check all those boxes.

Yeah. Got the ruminating. And I, I'm just such an advocate of men connecting with men. You know, you have a men's program. I've got a men's program. We've got our annual conference next weekend. I'm in a men's program. I had 6 guys at my house this weekend writing for my 8th annual writer's retreat that I know them all from my men's program. And I know personally, when I'm in a men's program, when I'm in a men's group, when I have a coach, whatever manifestation it is, sometimes even just having a trainer, right? A trainer at the gym. I'm at my best. I'm happiest. I'm performing. I get laid the most. And when I don't have good men in my life, when I married my wife Lupita, Um, I said at that time, uh, and again, that was about 9+ years ago, I had 1.5 good guy friends in my life, and one was on, on the way out the door because he just burned too many bridges. And so I had one good guy friend, and, and I married this woman, and she's strong, and she's fiery, and she can be kind of crazy, and accusing me of stuff. Okay, she's Mexican, you know, so, you know, she always thinks I'm fucking the next-door neighbor. I must have a girlfriend if I'm looking at my phone. And, and And you know, and she's just the most generous, loving, strong, you know, beautiful, amazing woman. But the man, I knew she was going to kick my ass and I knew I probably would not be at my best. And I knew I'd probably fuck it up. I knew I would. So I went looking and, and I found a men's group found me. And I did that program for 6 years. I've made, you know, right now. I've got a list of just friends that live in Austin, Texas. I call it my Austin buddies of probably 25 friends just in Austin, Texas. Right. And I got men I know all over the world. And if I needed something, they'd get on a plane and fly here. They'd come take care of me. I didn't have that 10 years ago. And I gave credit to the marriage to this, you know, fiery Latina woman who would kick my ass. I mean, she can out-squat me and out-deadlift me. Right. So, I mean, she's a gym rat. She's strong. She grew up having to fight. I grew up in the suburbs of Seattle with a bunch of Boeing engineer family, you know, playing soccer, you know, very white bread, you know, been in two fights my whole life. And, and so having good men in my life has really what's kept me strong. And, um, and I know it keeps my wife respecting me and loving me because she— I've changed her whole attitude towards men. I mean, she grew up— most of the men she grew up around were dogs. I mean, to grow up in a macho culture, you can't trust any of the men here. And I brought so many good men to our house, and she's met so many of the men in my life that it's changed her world, it's changed her worldview, and it's allowed me to be a strong man that, you know, can embrace her storm and, and just, you know, dance with it and stay firm with it and keep loving her. And, you know, and she always then, you know, just loves me even more. So Yeah, to James, to anybody listening nowadays, there's no excuse to not have a men's coach or therapist or a men's group or a men's program. There are just so many out there. Now, the secret sauce is you've, you've got to participate and get vulnerable, reveal yourself, not just your complaints, reveal your hurts, reveal your fuck-ups, reveal your fears, reveal your anxieties, and then let men give a shit about you. As you learn to give a shit about other men. That's the secret sauce of us men being in our best. That's the tribe that our ancestors had that we don't have these days. So we have to go make our own tribe. We have to create our own tribe.

There you go.

Again, that's why you're doing what you do, is why I do what we do. We know the value of tribe. We know personally we perform at our best when we have tribe, and we've seen countless men lift their lives up up. Or even if they're already doing well, they do even better once they, they get tribe. So yeah, James, you know, we're, we're both, you know, just going to give you the same message: don't go it alone. It'll eat you up. It'll eat your life. And that makes you more dependent on women for your validation. And then guess what? Then we go pick the women who are least capable of validating us because that feels fucking normal to our nervous system.

Funny how that works. Funny. Oh yeah, we say it over and over and over again. It's, um, I've talked about this countless times, so guys bear with me here, that it opened my eyes. Were open to this, um, shoot, 20-some years ago when I started helping businesses with their marketing, and I would have to work with like the CEO or some top dude in the company. They were all part of business networking groups. They all had a mentor group. They were all like, I got to go to my group meeting, it's Wednesday, gotta go to my other group, it's Friday. And you realize, and then you meet all these different companies, they're not related in any way, and you're like, they all have groups, they all getting help, they're all getting with their mentor, their coach, their whatever. It's very much a— as far as successful men are concerned, that's part of their culture. It's a given. Yeah, you can't go alone, you can't do all this alone. You pick up the phone and go, what'd you do, Bob, when you did this? Let's get together for a powwow and talk about it. They get help. This relationship, this stuff, if you want to call it that, mental health stuff, it's the same thing. Get a mentor, get a team around you to help you out with this kind of thing. Don't go alone, Mr. James and others. We've got Jason, um, who comments he's a member of the Brotherhood. He said he was lucky enough to find the Brotherhood early in my journey. It helped me a great deal going through everything and starting my rebuild. Awesome. He says he's also got the ruminating brain, working on toning it down via acceptance and building a new life awesome enough to not be worrying about the old stuff. It's not easy, but it will be worth it. Very good, Mr. Jason. Thank you for that. Awesome. Good for you, dude.

Yeah, that whole ruminating brain thing, it, um, when I, when I really started noticing it, and, you know, a lot of my male clients, especially I'd notice it in group. And what I, I was noticing two kinds of guys. One was a guy that would come to group and maybe come week after week, month after month, and make very slow but incremental changes. But he keeps saying, well, nothing's really changed in my life, nothing's really different. And the guys would say, yeah, it is, man. Remember when you joined the group last year? You were in that crappy job and your boss didn't appreciate you, and he kept promising a promotion, he never got it, and you left and you got a better job. Remember you were with that woman that, you know, treated you bad, wouldn't give you the time of day, and now you found that amazing? So there's these guys who are actually making changes but kept saying, nothing's different in my life. I'm, I'm, I'm not, I'm not making the progress the rest of you are making. Then there were guys that wouldn't make changes at all, but just kept ruminating about how, you know, their life, it wasn't very good, that nothing was happening. And, and they'd keep coming to the group, but they wouldn't do any of the work. Right. And I thought, what's going on? You know, I'm, I'm curious. I think you are too. And so No More Mr. Nice Guy just came out of my curiosity. You know, You know, why am I this way? Why are so many other men saying the same thing? So I started looking at that ruminating brain. And I realized it's this pattern where people with the ruminating brain tend to ruminate in one of three directions. One is they go into the past and ruminate about past mistakes, missed opportunities. If I'd just done that different. They create what I call a revisionist history. You know, I had one guy in one of my courses, he said, you know, he was like in his 60s. And he was still ruminating about a missed sexual opportunity in college. And in his mind, he was sure if he just fucked Mary Sue back when he was a sophomore in college, his whole life would have taken a different trajectory. And then what we do is we create that revisionist history and compare our life how it is to how we think it could have been if we hadn't made those mistakes. And we ruminate over and over. So there's that going into the past. Also going into the future and just assuming everything's going to be terrible. Everything's going to fail. Everything. I got to be perfect. I better not start it if I don't know I'll succeed. I dated a woman for a while and, and, um, her brother called her Chicken Little because the sky was always falling and she always said, what if we do this? And what if, what if, what if? And I'd always say, I don't know. I don't live in the world of what ifs. We'll do it. And if that happens, we'll handle it. We'll handle it. But she was constantly ruminating about what things might go wrong in the future. Then there's rumination where we're measuring ourselves to other people, comparing ourselves to an arbitrary standard, always coming out in the negative. Now, what happens, whether it's going into the past, ruminating about the future, or doing the measuring or comparing, typically there's an assassin attached and connected to that. That keeps telling us we're worthless, we're a loser, no woman would want us, we're never going to make it, we're never going to succeed. Dad was right, we're a loser, you know, though all the women that don't want us, they're all right. And the assassin— I've got a very good friend who's a successful musician. He has a great family, great, two kids. One's like in high school, one's in college. Good-looking guy. My wife says he looks like a Calvin Klein model. You know, uh, just beautiful life. And he tells me that sometimes he has to go get in the bed for a week, pull the covers over his head while that assassin is just coming after him nonstop. So I don't know. I've said sometimes I think that's just an inherited brain type. Usually the people that have that ruminating type don't have to look far up the family tree to mom, dad, siblings. And this friend of mine, His mother killed herself and his dad's brother killed himself. So, I mean, he's, I mean, this is in there genetically somewhere. Yeah. So I think for some people is probably a genetic trait. Like, like, um, they know that we can inherit the, uh, a tendency towards addiction. We know we can inherit tendency towards ADHD. And I found that ruminating brain, ADHD, and addiction often all go together. They seem to be clumped in the same part of the brain. So it may be that James and others might always have that tendency to ruminate. But my, my, how I work with people is we work, we give them a, I give them a lot of tools, but the, the, the core premise is we have to learn to be the observer of this rumination, rumination patterns, not the believer of them. Because if we've heard them long enough, we assume they must be true. Because every human believes everything their mind tells them, right? Now we have to learn to be able to stand outside of ourself and watch that and go, is that really true? Now it seems true because we've been telling ourselves that, but that's again where we need help, where we can't do that alone. It's difficult to step out of the machine and watch it spin as opposed to being in it and being spun by it. But if we can get good help to help us and give— help us learn tools, Whether it be meditation, self-soothing, um, just even for me when I'm ruminating, if I just go to get myself fucked to the gym and move some iron around, you know, you can't ruminate, you know, when you got a bunch of weight up over your head. You've got to have your mind completely there. And so for me, when I go hang, when I'm ruminating, I go hang out with men and or I go do guy things with guys or go to the gym and and again, the ruminations may not disappear, but I'm not sitting there, you know, just wallowing in them. I'm going to do something very physical, very masculine. And, and that's, I mean, there's many tools that I teach, but that's just to me one of the most effective right now. If I'm, I'm in a poor me place and ruminating about poor me, um, I, I get up, get off my ass and go do something physical.

Yeah. If you wanna oversimplify it, The human body is not meant to be so sedentary and sitting and doing nothing for extended periods of time. That's when things start going haywire. Your brain starts going a little funky, your body starts hurting, atrophy. You're supposed to exert yourself, you're supposed to do something, and then wouldn't you know it, your brain starts functioning better and your muscles function better. Aging— you age more gracefully, all kinds of things. But if you sit there and do nothing, a whole bunch of bad stuff happens. And a lot of us have determined, especially us guys, when I get up and do stuff, especially really hard stuff and push and pull things, I tend to feel better. It's funny how that works.

And especially do it around other people. Don't just keep the community aspect of it. Yeah.

Hey, Bob from the gym, how you doing? Good job. Want me to spot you on the bench press?

Cool.

It's a community thing. It's very important for up here in the old noodle. And Steve on Facebook says, I still ruminate over not asking out a girl I had a massive crush on in 1998.

Yeah, I think it is, you know, If we can step aside, our ruminating brains can actually be a source of great comedy. You know, when we can actually let it quit beating us up and step aside and say, yeah, I'm still beating myself up for that number. Oh, well, just smile at it and go, okay, what am I gonna learn from it? Next time, ask for the number. And now we're done. We're done. We're done ruminating and rehearsing that missed opportunity. Opportunity.

We got the— I think this is Sup Dave, is his name, little username Sup Dave. He says, Dr. Glover, I read the Dave, and there you go. He says, I read the 2003 edition of your book. He goes way back. He says, you said that putting yourself first, being selfish in a healthy way, actually makes you more attractive. What role does service and sacrifice, also attractive and noble virtues, play in our healing from that false guy patterns? Is there one? So service and sacrifice versus doing the selfishy things.

Okay. So I'm gonna take a guess and then I'll answer the question. I'm gonna take a guess that it challenges this person, this, what's his name? What's up, Dave? What's up, Dave? So, um, I'm gonna guess it challenges your worldview and view of self and that there's all these bad people out there doing bad things and you've gotta be a good person in a bad world.. And maybe you had a bad father, or maybe you heard your mother complain about bad men, or you heard women. And a lot of nice guys become what I call nice guys because it's, it's a reaction to, to, we don't want to be like our dads, we don't be like the bad men, we don't be like those evil men that hurt people, or the bullies, right? And so we go to the other extreme and, and we go, I'll be a nice guy, I, I won't, I won't hurt I won't be selfish. I won't, I won't be demanding. I'll, I'll, I'll make everybody else's needs a priority. Now that's just a reaction to a negative state. It's not actually a true choice of how to show up in the world. Okay. There's a difference. And I, and I often say the opposite of crazy is still crazy. So if we're just reacting to this one standard over here, this toxic or crazy, and we're just doing 180 degrees the opposite, that's still crazy because it's still actually just based on a crazy standard. Um, I, I actually, I love that term. And people say, what does that mean? The opposite of crazy is still crazy. So I was writing a blog one time and I was using that. I wanted to find the original source. I assumed it was 12 steps. So I Googled, who said the opposite of crazy is still crazy? And then I think it quoted Reddit and said, Dr. Robert Glover, the author of No More Mr. Nice Guy, says the opposite of crazy is still crazy. So I gave myself credit. So if you're, if what we're doing is just a reaction and it's coming out of fear or, or passivity. That's actually not a virtue. That's not a virtue. Now, yes, making your needs a priority makes you attractive to the opposite sex. Why? Because being an empty, needy, hook up a hose to women kind of guy is not attractive. They, they, they're going to push that away. If, if, you know, if you've read, uh, Mark Manson's book Models, the basic— it's called the subtitle Attracting Women Through Authenticity or Honesty or something like The basic premise is don't be needy. Women hate that. Okay. So if you are filled, if your bucket's filled and we're adults, we're responsible for surrounding ourselves with people and resources that want to give to us. And if we are well-sourced, if our bucket is full and overflowing, we give of that overflow to women in the world, to those in need. Giving from an empty bucket is not attractive. It's manipulative. It's going, I'm empty, I'm giving to you. It's covert contract. Appreciate me or give back to me. So to answer your question, I believe in virtue. I believe there's certain aughts in this world. I believe in a universal aught is powerful people should not use their power to hurt less powerful people. I also believe in helping people that are in pain or hurt. And if I can help, I help, but I don't get it as my identity or this makes me a good person. Or this makes me different than the bad people out there. Give from the overflow, because if you're giving from an empty bucket, you probably have unconscious covert contracts. So I'll be appreciated, or I'll be valued, or that makes me a good person. No, it doesn't. It doesn't. Giving doesn't make you a good person. We're already good people. We don't have to go do something to be good. But if we believe we're good and the bucket's full, We want to give, we want to share, we want to help others, but there's no strings attached and no covert contracts attached to it. So yeah, I'm, I'm a generous person, but I've learned to give judiciously and give because there's a genuine need, not because my bucket's empty and I wanna feel good about myself, or I want something to give something back.

Yeah. And there's this pervasive thought, especially these days of, I don't wanna be a pushover. Simp, if you will, by give, give, give. Even though I genuinely want to give love and affection to this woman or to my friend or whatever, I'm afraid of how it will be taken, that I'm giving too much, that I'm a weak little nobody. I'll just hold back on the giving. I've run into that a lot with guys, that I, I'm on a date with this woman and she looked really good, but I dare not tell her. And then weeks later she says, you never tell me that I look good or anything. What is that about? Well, I'm I don't wanna come across as some kind of needy little, you know what, you know, I wanna, I'm the tough guy. Darn it. It's like, dude, if you think she's pretty, just tell her she's pretty.

It's not that big of a deal. Just tell her. And, and let, let's even flip it. I've been working for at least 20 years or more on letting people give to me and especially letting women give to me. I, I, I remember, um, when I first started, got out in the dating world, I'd been in this relationship with my ex-wife where I did a shitload of giving. I, I, I was doing all the heavy lifting in the relationship. And, um, and so when I started dating women and they wanted to give to me sexually, that made me really uncomfortable, right? And, and like, I would always kind of redirect it where I'd go back to giving to them because that meant that that was comfortable for me. And, you know, they'd kind of get frustrated, a little bit perturbed in me. Like, and I came to realize, like, there's these women that took great pride in their blowjobs, and here they were, you know, they, they— it made them happy and gave them pleasure. To, you know, give me a great blowjob. And I'm going, uh, no, no, no, let me do this, let me do it. And, you know, and I had to start— as weird as it sounds, I had to start letting women blow me. I had to start letting them give to me because they got joy from it. They got pleasure and pride from it. And who am I to rob them of their pleasure, right? So I had to— believe it or not— had to start letting women even just give to me sexually. I remember I was dating One woman, this is the woman who, uh, the Chicken Little always, you know, what if I met her? She sold me shoes at Nordstrom. And so she worked in retail fashion sale. And so one time she came over to my apartment. We'd been dating a little while and I had a bunch of clean clothes I'd washed sitting on my couch to fold. I was gonna fold them and, and, and she came in and, you know, we're about, we're gonna go, go on a date somewhere. And she just starts folding my clothes and stacking them. And she did it really well cuz she worked at Nordstrom and J.Crew and stuff like she could fold clothes. And, and I said, I said, don't do that. Stop. I didn't, you know, I didn't leave those out for you to fold. And she goes, oh, I like doing it. And she goes, I won't put them away, but you know, if you leave your clothes out, I'll fold them for you. I said, I'm not going to put them away either. I'm going to leave those nicely folded stacks on the end of my bed thinking somebody loves me. And you know, because somebody wanted to come do that for me. So I actually started leaving my clean washed clothes on the couch because she would have gotten mad at me me if I folded them myself, because I was robbing her of the chance to give to me. But yeah, no, no, it's okay, I can do it myself. And now with Lupita, my wife, she sat me down and talked to me very, very sternly before and said, Robert, you pay for everything, you do everything, you've blessed my life, you've blessed my life and my children. Let me give to you. You're hard to give to. She said, let me do things for you. That's how I can show my love. That's how I can contribute to our relationship. It's making your job easier, making your life easier, letting you, you know, often I'm sitting here doing these kind of calls like I am in my office and I've got French doors with glass doors over here to my office. And I'll see her outside the door and she'll come sneaking in and put like a glass of coconut water right here on the corner of my desk where nobody can see her on the frame. And she'll do that just to love me. If I'm sitting at the kitchen table and I need a fork, if I get up to go to the kitchen, she'll go, where are you going? I'm going to get a fork. And she goes, sit down, I'll get you one. And, and in my mind, that's like me being my dad. Mrs. Glover, get me a fork. Yeah, yeah. And, and you know what, I go sit back down and I let her bring me a fork because that's how she shows love. Now here's the deal, if we'll let other people love us and give to us— nice guys are terrible receivers because it makes us feel guilty, we're doing something wrong, everybody else's needs are more important. But if we'll let people give to us, our bucket is now full and overflowing, and we can give more to other people because of that. So it's a beautiful process. So let people give to you, work at being a good receiver, and then give from the overflow.

Very well put. I love it. And that's something that so many guys, the, the, the have trouble with. The source of that is I'm not worthy of the love that I'm getting. I'm a bad boy.

I have a lot a lot of shame. I'm gonna owe them something. They're gonna use it against me later.

Yeah, I haven't earned their love and affection yet. Let me give more to them.

Let me get more. Let me get more. Let me, let me keep the debt going that direction.

And there's so many women that are, uh, watching this now or later in recording may say men like that exist, that give, give. Yes, just go to any kind of self-help relationship-oriented thing. It's filled with such men, very anxiously attached men.

It's funny when I talk with women, like on an airplane or something like that. Well, what do you do? Well, I work with men. Oh really? What do you do? I'm a relationship, you know, therapist. Oh, what do you teach men? You know, so, you know, they all wanna know. It's like when I talk about nice guys, I usually get two responses. One of two responses from women. One is, is they're nodding their head. Uh-huh. Yeah, that's my ex. Or, you know, that, that, that's my brother. That's my dad. I was actually on a flight. Sometime in the last 6 months, sitting up in first class, and there's a woman sitting next to me, and, and we got to talking over time. And, and so I started— she kept asking, so I started explaining, you know, the nice guy syndrome to her. She kept going, nodding, nodding. She goes, that's my husband. And, and she goes, in fact, he's back in the back of the plane working. And I go, let me guess, he flies a lot for his work. She told me he worked in the tech industry. I said, he flies a lot for his has a lot of frequent flyer miles and you got, he got an upgrade for, you know, first class. Oh, I said, I knew, I knew that seat was empty when I had booked my flight. And, and, and he sat back in the, as my wife would call it, the culo of the airplane, the butt of the airplane. Right. And, and, and, and he put you up here in first class and she goes, uh-huh, that's my, I go, mm-hmm. I know I would've done the same thing. I'm a nice guy. And so women either go, I know that guy, is my husband in the back of the plane? Or they look at me kind of bewildered, like, there's guys like that out there? And I go, you go for the bad boys, don't you? They go, mm-hmm. How do you know? Um, so yeah, and I've said for a long time, I have empathy for women. I feel, I feel sorry for women because traditionally their choices of men have typically either been the nice guy, the wussy doormat, the simp that will do everything for them but has no backbone and has no real life and no purpose and passion, or the asshole jerk, the bad boy. That's really their two choices. The bad boy is a turn-on. He creates a lot of emotional tension, you know, he energizes them. The nice guy seems like, yeah, he'd be a good husband, he'd be a good father to my children, but I don't respect him and he lets me walk on him and he doesn't turn me on and I don't want to fuck him. But that's their only two choices. And I love that you and I are doing the work out there, that we're creating a third kind of man. It's not somebody halfway between these two. It's somebody up above. It's a man with consciousness who does make his needs a priority, who does surround himself with good men, who does have good boundaries, who can soothe his anxiety, who's released his shame and feels good in his body and likes who he is, who's making a difference in the world. There's a third kind of man now, thanks to people like you and I, that we're giving women a true choice in the matter. They don't have to settle for the wussy doormat that doesn't turn them on, doesn't get them wet, doesn't inspire them. But they don't have to put up with the jerk that sleeps with their girlfriend and steals their money, and they have to keep, you know, putting them back in rehab. There's, you know, and there are, there are other men in between, but, but, but typically these are the two choices somewhere on that spectrum. So we're giving, we're giving women a whole nother choice. And that going back to, you know, what we were talking about earlier, that's why women don't rail against my book, is why they, they don't They don't see it as a negative. They go, yeah, I want that guy. I want that integrated man. I want that authentic man. I want that man living with purpose and passion. He's got balls. He's got a spine. You know, women tell me all the time, I want a guy with a backbone. I want a man that can match my strength. I don't want a guy to dominate me, but I want a guy that, you know, my wife, Lupita, before we ever got married, said, you know, I love it when you tell me no. She says, I love it that you're strong. She goes, I know I'm stronger than you. She said, but you know, I don't want, I don't want, you know, you, when I say jump, I don't want you to say how high. She says, I love it that, you know, you, you don't give in to me. Because she is a strong woman, and a strong woman wants a strong man. Oh yeah, that's that, who's living a powerful life. And she goes, that's my man.

She's at a party, man, right there.

That man over there, that's my man. They're proud of you. They're, they can't wait to get you home from that party because they go, that's my man.

Very well put, Dr. Robert Glover.

Wow.

That was it for about the hour. That was fast.

That's all we got.

Where can men find out more about what you do?

Uh, well, then come hang out down in Puerto Vallarta. I'm down here most of the time. I'm gonna be in Louisville, Kentucky in a couple—

Oh, that's right, we got to talk about that. Bro Fest. I did put it in the comments there. BroFest2026.com is the annual gathering of my men's group, the Brotherhood.

And what are the dates on that?

March 27th and 28th.

I better put that on my calendar.

But Robert here will be with us in person for the weekend, as well as myself and some other special guests and members of the Brotherhood. And it's going to be an awesome time, looking forward to it. So guys, we still have space. Join us, brofest2026.com, B-R-O-F-E-S-T-2026.com. I put it in the comments there so you see the link. We'd love for you to join us. And where can we find out more about you?

All right, I'll just say I did Bro Fest 3 years, I guess it'd be 3 years ago.

Coming to Texas.

Yeah. Austin, Texas. That was so much fun. I had such a good time. You have such a good group of guys. They were so appreciative of me being there and engaging with them. And, uh, yeah, we'll have a good time. So guys can find me, uh, drglover.com, D-R-G-L-O-V-E-R.com. Um, got my courses, my workshops, my books, and then my men's membership program. IntegrationNation.net. Um, and you know, you've been on my program, I've been on your program. You know, I love that, you know, we live in a world that, you know, we're all working together, we're all working together to make this a better world. So, um, yeah, then come check out, uh, Integration Nation at IntegrationNation.net.

Very good. Dr. Robert Glover, thank you so very much. Appreciate you.

Always fun to hang out with you. Looking forward to, uh, Absolutely.

Guys, thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate all of you. Thank you so much, and we'll catch you on the next one. Have a great—