Become An Effective Leader with Cheryl Bonini Ellis | Meaningful Revolution Podcast

What I've learned is there's a lot of bad leaders out there. I think I worked for quite a few of them myself. And even though that was painful at the time, I learned a lot from those people. I learned what not to do. And I think that if I had a revolution it would be around effective leadership which would include being basically more human, just expressing more humanity, more kindness, more compassion. Really being in a place where you could lift people up and just help them excel and help them be high performers. That's what I would really like to see more of in the world. And I think and we really need good leaders and everyone in my opinion can step up to leadership. So I don't think of it as a positional thing. I think of it more as an internal mindset and internal of practices or habits. So that's what I would like to see. I don't know what I'd have to call. I'd have to think some about how, what I would actually call it.

Hey everyone. Welcome to the Meaningful Revolution podcast. I am your host, Shawn Butner and this is the podcast where we help you create and design a life that you find meaningful and and help you and hope to inspire you to live more into it. Now today's guest is the author of Becoming Changing the Game of Leadership from the Inside Out. A former senior executive turned entrepreneur, she's helped countless leaders achieve breakthrough success. She's also a fellow certified High Performance Leadership Coach specializing in helping growth minded business owners and executives build fully engaged, cohesive, high performing teams. She's a senior faculty member at the Leadership Development Institute at Eckerd College and network associate for the center of Creative Leadership. She's also the founding member of John Maxwell's teams of coaches, trainers and speakers and a certified facilitator for five behaviors of a cohesive team. Everything Disc and productivity or productive conflict. She's an amateur photographer and avid traveler, currently based in St. Petersburg, Florida. I would love to introduce and excited to see our guest, Cheryl Bonini Ellis. Welcome, Cheryl.

Oh, Sean, thank you so much. It's so great to see you and great to be part of your meaningful revolution. I just think that's awesome that you're doing this.

Oh, thank you. Well, that said, the very first question I'm going to ask you is if you could start a meaningful revolution out in the world, what would you call it? What would it look like? What would it be about?

Well, I'm not sure what I would call it. However, it would be about leadership. And I'll tell You what? I have been in this space a very long time. I worked in a corporate environment for a lot of years before I started my own practice. And what I've learned is there's a lot of bad leaders out there. I think I worked for quite a few of them myself. And even though that was painful at the time, I learned a lot from those people. I learned what not to do. And I think that if I had a revolution, it would be around effective leadership, which would include being basically more human, just expressing more humanity, more kindness, more compassion. Really being in a place where you could lift people up and just help them excel and help them be high performers. That's what I would really like to see more of in the world. And I think there's never been a better time for leadership and there's never been a bigger need for leadership than there is right now. We've seen so much go wrong in the last recent years in our country, in the world, and we really need good leaders. And everyone, in my opinion, can step up to leadership. So I don't think of it as a positional thing. I think of it more as an internal, you know, mindset, an internal set of practices or habits. So that's what I would like to see. I don't know what I'd have to call, I'd have to think some about how, what I would actually call it.

Fair enough, fair enough. But I love that idea of we. I mean, we definitely do need more leaders. And we also, I think we can lead in so many more ways than we think in our day to day life. Whether you're on a team and leading the team from, you know, the ground level or executive, you're leading your family all the time. You know, it's not just in a business context. So I absolutely love that.

So it's not only, you know, we think about whether you're leading a team or leading an organization or leading your family, but I think a big aspect of leadership is leading yourself. I mean, you and I are kind of personal development junkies. So we're thinking about this stuff all the time. But the reality is that most of us can start out with just doing a better job of leading ourselves and leading our lives and being better role models for other people. So that's a big aspect of leadership that we tend to forget about.

Absolutely. And thanks for pointing that out. So, so then I'm curious. I think this leads really well into the, the next question here, and that is, can you tell us about a time when before you Realize that you needed to lead yourself first, like what was going on, what happened, and then kind of how that, that was the catalyst for launching you forward in this work.

Yeah, it's, you know, it's a great thing to think about because actually, you know, in my, I would say this, in my young 20s in particular, I was a pretty confident person. I mean, I thought I knew a lot more than I actually did know. And it was easy for me to be critical of other people and the way they managed and the way they led. And it wasn't until I started to have those opportunities myself to lead other people and that I realized how challenging it could be. And especially, you know, for example, as a young person who, who was suddenly thrust into a management role. And the people that were working for me were younger than me, I mean, older than me, and they didn't really think that it was a good idea that I would be selected to be the manager of the team. So having to overcome some of those kinds of challenges, you realize that first of all, this is not as easy as I thought it was. And secondly, I have a lot to learn. And so I started to, I started to learn, I started to pay a lot of attention to what people were doing, what was working, what was not working. I did a lot of experimenting, I tried out a lot of things. Some of them worked, some of them didn't work. I realized that I had to think of myself as a leader and a lot of situations where I was more in, I was more tuned into what my role or what my job was and not so much my role as leading other people and helping other people excel and helping them work together, you know, as a team and accomplishing common goals and things like that. So there was just a long time learning process. But unfortunately, I don't really feel like I had a lot of good role models. So it was kind of a sink or swim environment that I worked in. People would ask me to take on challenges and even if I didn't know how to do them, I would love those kinds of challenges because I'd say, I know I could figure it out. And so I, I took on a lot of things and had a lot of opportunities to learn by making a ton of mistakes. So I think, you know, it's just, it's really been a journey and, and it's one of those things. One of the things I love about this topic is that there's always room for growth. You can always get better at it. There's always another level which is also the reason I love the work that we do as high performance coaches, because high performing, high achieving people know there's always another level and they're, and they may not know how to get there, but they know there's more. And so that's a, that's really, it's challenging, but it's also really fun to think about, like, what's next? How can I do better? How can I do more? How can I be more effective?

Absolutely. You know, in my experience with, with leadership, you know, having worked at some really large corporations and having had opportunities that there's a huge sense of uncertainty the higher up the leadership change or chain you go, you know, and I found that like, you know, oh, I have all the answers as an independent contractor, but now that I have to kind of work and be like, where are we taking the team? Like, there's no right or wrong answer. So as you were talking about, you know, finding those new challenges and really taking on things you didn't know, like how did you manage the uncertainty of being the leader that's supposed to direct other folks and be confident in, hey, this is the way we're going?

Well, there were two real, two really important milestones that I think every leader faces. And some of us move through them and some of us get stuck. And the first one is when you can say with conviction, gee, it's not the way I would do it, but it's okay. In other words, you really relinquish that sense of I, everything has to be done my way. Everything has to be done the way I expect it to be done. And, and you start, when you make, when you turn that corner, you start to get better at expressing the goal that you're after or the outcome that you're after and allowing people to find their own way to that outcome. And when you can really, truly say, you know, and be genuine about it and authentic about it, it's not the way I would do it, but it's okay. You know, you kind of let go of a level of ownership and people recognize that. They see it, they, they, they start to take more risks, they start to be more innovative, they start to be more creative. And those are all good things. So it actually takes the burden of leadership off your shoulders a bit because other people are taking more of the responsibility and to themselves. The, the other thing that I, the other time that I think is a, is a big milestone when you get to the stage where you have the confidence and the humility to hire people that are better than you are. When I, when I got to this stage, it was significant for me because I would. You start to think that I have to have all the answers. I have to know where we're going, I have to know how to get there. But when you can really start to hire people that are smarter than you, that have a lot to contribute that you can't contribute, and you start to really build a team together and again, you let go of some of the reins, if you will, and really let other people lead the way or show the way. And, and then you're kind of leading from the back instead of from the front. That's another very liberating move when you get to that stage. So I think those are two big milestones that leaders face and a lot of times they get stuck there. And I think for me, when I made those, when I made those turns or made those realizations, I, I, it was, it was very significant. It was a very significant jump for me to be able to do that. And as a result, I think when you're, when you're really able to hire people that are smarter than you, you can, you can manage huge projects that you have no idea how they're going to, how they're going to work out or how you're going to get there. Just have kind of a vague idea of what you're trying to accomplish. But you know that with the right people surround it, surrounding you, you can figure it out together. And that's a really, that's a really rewarding place to get to. So I think that's, you know, a long way of answering your question, but I think it's, it's, it's part of the journey of getting to that stage that is just so meaningful for somebody who's serious about being a good leader.

Absolutely. And so we're talking about this, we're talking about milestones. I'm thinking about my career and I'm thinking about, so being in engineering, you have a bunch of folks that are not stereotypically great at the people side of things. And I can count on, you know, so many different circumstances where people got promoted because they're really technical and then really struggle with that leadership follow through because it's a completely different skill set and game. And so I love these two milestones because I do. It's about feeling empowered as a leader, but also empowering a team.

So true. And so to your point, one of the jobs I had along the way was I was the human resource business partner for the, the technical side. I Worked in financial services. So it was the technical side of banking. It was all the, you know, computer programmers, the systems, systems analysts and all that. And so I'm smiling when you say they're not always so good at the people side. One of the things that was great about that job was they felt I was good at the people side. They knew they weren't. So they really, they really leaned on me a lot and I was able to help them and they allowed themselves to be helped, which was awesome. You know, it was just a great partnership. But I, but I see this happen all the time because someone is really good technically or it happens a lot in sales. The person who's the best salesperson suddenly becomes the manager of the sales team without the skills necessary to be a good leader. And very often they fail in those, in those roles because there is a whole skill set involved in being a leader. And it is, it's like a role in and of itself. Besides what you're, besides what your functional role might be in an organization, Just being a leader is, you know, a full time, A full time undertaking if you do it right. Right.

Oh, definitely, yeah. And yeah, when I think about the people that struggle the most, it's the trying to like, I'm going to do what I was doing before and I just do this kind of as an extra thing, not realizing you have to like, change the mix of how you're communicating, what you're communicating, that planning and whatnot.

Yeah, because roles do drive behaviors, you know, so, so for example, if you're in that situation where you're a team member and then all of a sudden you're the manager, people are going to react differently to that change. Some of them are going to be happy about it. Some of the women are going to be relieved that it's not them. And other people are going to be resentful because they think that they would have made a better choice than you. So there's always just a lot of dynamics, a lot of human dynamics to work with. And, and that's what makes leadership so challenging, is, you know, we're dealing with humans. And humans are complex and they're complicated and they're not easy. They're not slow. Simple.

Yeah, exactly. Humans making a quick note here. And so if you're listening, please be taking notes. I already have like a page. I always forget to, to tell people at the beginning to get out their journals. So trying to get ahead of that.

So.

The next question that's popped up that I'm curious about Is, I imagine, in your job, because you're talking, I mean, these human dynamics are really important and also form, like the company culture. So how do you go in and assess if a company's culture has, like, leadership in the DNA or not? So I've worked at a couple of different companies. One was really good that if you were to get promoted, it had to be on a different team in a different area where nobody knew you, so you, you'd start fresh. So you didn't have some of those, like, you're my buddy and now you're the, the corporate overlord. And that really breaks my spirit or causes a lot of personal conflict. And another one that's just like, oh, you're the smart person, you get elevated and then you sink or swim. And they were better at demoting people that weren't living up. But it's just two different examples of leadership culture in an organization. How do you think about that?

Well, I really like to use, personally, I like to use assessment tools because I think assessment tools are an objective way to figure out, like, what people are good at and what they need help with. Because none of us is good at all the things that leadership requires. We just aren't. I mean, it's just anytime I ask people think about the really good leaders that you've worked for or known in your life and what were some of the traits that those good leaders had, and you start flip charting that, you know, making a list, it's a big list. People have really high expectations of their leaders, so hardly anybody could ever fit the total bill. So one thing to find out is, you know, what really is my style of leadership, my style of communication, and how do I interact? How do I interact with people? Am I effective at that or not? If not, where? Not so that I can work on that. So a really big part of being a great leader is having a high level of self awareness. And I think a high level of self awareness is another one of those things that you could keep working at. You know, there's always more to learn. I, I have once described myself as an assessment junkie because I think I've taken every assessment under the sun, and every time I take one, I learned something about myself that I didn't know before. And it's because there's a lot of information, and if you're open to it, you read the information and then you just kind of pay attention going forward to see how that plays out for you. And you just learn. You learn some things that are very helpful to Know, so I'm a big believer in assessments. One of the things we do with leaders and organizations is we do this kind of 360 assessment where they measure themselves, their boss also measures them, their peers measure them, and their direct reports measure them. So you see, you see yourself from all these different perspectives. And one of the things people often learn is one size does not fit all. In fact, the first time I did this, it was a big aha moment for me because I realized that things that my boss thought were strengths, my direct reports didn't see it that way, and vice versa. Things that my team thought were strong points, my peers might have thought, yeah, this is not working. So you really have to learn that different constituencies require different things. So you have to build your relationships one at a time in all the different directions. So I think having some type of tool to figure that out is very helpful. I. I also would would say, honestly, anybody who's trying to be a good leader, a good manager, should have a coach. I. I just don't. It's. It's just. It's just too hard out there without having, you know, some source of, you know, a person that you can rely on that's, you know, just there for you, that can be. That can listen to the challenges you're having, that can, you know, help provide a different perspective, that can challenge you to think a little differently or to do something that you normally wouldn't think to do. So I think having a coach is really, really critical. So a combination of assessments and coaching are two of the things that I think are really, really critical to having good leaders in organizations. And then just making the investment. I mean, companies should make the investment in training, in development, whether that's internal or external. Just making sure that you have a plan to help leaders grow is really important. So I hope that helps. I mean, those are some of the things that I think of when I think of trying to help people improve their leadership capability and credibility.

Yeah, that's absolutely helpful. And to tack onto it, I think I have a very strong belief that you should be training for a leader as soon as possible, because it's. It takes a while to develop that skill. And by the time you're in it, if you don't haven't been exercising those or thinking about it like, you're in for a much rougher ride, in my humble opinion. So I'm always.

That is such a great point, Sean. And it's one of the things that, you know, John Maxwell, who's. Who's one of the foremost authorities on leadership in this country. And I think in the world for that matter. He's written probably more books on the subject than anybody. And as you mentioned at the beginning, I'm a member of his founding team of trainers and coaches. And, you know, I learned so much from that man. But one of the things he talks about is that idea that you need to start training for leadership or management way before you actually have the responsibility, because just, you know, just watching what people do and, and what works for you and what doesn't work for you, and so you can adapt your own style of, of leadership, of management, and still be really authentic. You know this because I think people see through the lack of authenticity. If you're trying to be like someone else, I would say just be yourself because everybody else is taken, but because, let's face it, I mean, people see through it. They. They really. We are hardwired to read body language, and we know when people aren't being authentic with us.

And it's especially a perilous thing when you're entrusting your career to, you know, development to someone or that the team will go into the. The strategy of navigating an organization with politics and all that kind of stuff like it. The stakes are a lot higher than I think people realize too, sometimes.

Sure.

So I'm curious now then, you know, what if you were. If you were to define what makes a great leader and, you know, maybe start generally and maybe get down to like, what are like, some specific skills people need to have if you're going to be an effective leader and take the job seriously, I guess, you know, you're going to play it full time and step into that role fully.

Yeah, Well, I think one of the things that it takes to be a great leader is something I call an open mind and an open heart. And, and that goes to the point we were talking about earlier, about not always having to have the answers or be the last word, but also being willing to be that when it's required. You know, so having an open mind and an open heart means, you know, you're willing to listen and learn, but it doesn't mean that you're willing to abdicate your responsibility. It means that you take in a lot of information and then you make a decision that's an informed decision. So I think, I think that's a really important thing. I think just having the right mindset about leadership, like asking yourself, why do I want to be a leader? You know, and I'm talking here about Being a leader of a team, do I want to be the leader of the team? Because there's a prestige associated with it, because it gives me power? Because maybe it's more money or just a sense of some kind of entitlement, you know, that I can tell people what to do and they have to do it. Or do you want to be a leader because you have a genuine desire to help people improve, get better, to grow, to thrive, to, you know, you want to empower people to be their best version of themselves? There's a. That's a big spectrum, and we all fall somewhere on that spectrum. But I think it's really important to know that going in, like, you know, what's your motivation? And then I think that it's kind of this willingness to be a forever learner. We say this like leaders are learners. You. You really have to invest in yourself in some way, whether it's having a coach or whether it's reading, you know, a ton of books or just being really observant about what other people are doing or attending leadership conferences, just doing things that will help you get better at the craft of leadership and. And that willingness to learn. I mean, I'm sure you do, too. I read a ton of books every year. A lot of them are about leadership. A lot of them are about communication. A lot of them are about psychology and neuroscience, because I think all of those things are necessary in order to be effective at leadership. So beyond that, I would say some of the skills that are really, really critical. One of them is communication, and we use that word so easily and so lightly. But good communication is really a challenge. I mean, your responsibility in communication is making sure that the person heard what you needed them to hear. And it isn't. I mean, there's so much that can go wrong in a communication. There's kind of what you think you said, what the other person heard, what you think the other person heard, what the other person thinks about what you said. You know, there's a lot that can go wrong in a communication between two people, much less when you're communicating to a large group of people. So being always striving to be a better communicator. And a big part of that is the. That willingness to listen as an active listener, as someone who's listening to understand, you know, to. To really understand. Like, where's this person coming from? You know, how are they feeling? What are they. What are their challenges? I really want to know where they are so that I could come up along beside them and Help them move forward. So that kind of communication and listening become. Becomes real, really critical. And beyond that, I mean, I just think that I like to say this. Being a better leader is about being a better person. So I think, to me, leadership development is all about personal development. And you and I are people who invest a lot in personal development. I'm a big believer in it. I've been a big believer in it for a long time. I. The more I know or learn, the more I realize, the less I know about me, about other people, about interacting with other people. So it's a constant. You know, it's a constant challenge, and there's always room to grow. And it's one of the things I love about the work that I get to do is that there's always room to grow. And in the growth, there's always room to help other people grow as well. So, you know, they're an old adage about, if you want to learn a topic, teach it. I started teaching these leadership development programs through the center for Creative Leadership, and my understanding of leadership and its challenges has grown exponentially in that. And I've learned so much from the students, from the participants, from their challenges, from the things that they struggle with. Sometimes I'm able to help them, and sometimes it's a little harder to help because they have very complicated challenges that they're dealing with.

Right on. Is there anything in particular from teaching that you've learned that really surprised you about leadership in general?

I guess I don't know if it was really surpri. Surprising, but I guess it never. It never ceases to amaze me when I work with a group how much people are struggling. And even the people who look like and sound like good leaders, I mean, they're saying the right things. They seem very sincere. They. They still. They still struggle. Either they struggle with their confidence, or they struggle with their relationships with certain people there. They have big challenges with conflict in their organizations. So I think the thing that continually surprises me is how much people struggle. And it's kind of takes us back full circle to. What I talked about is I think a lot of people are even in their leadership role, they're working. They're working for someone else who's not necessarily an effective leader, who. Who isn't helping them, who isn't challenging them, who isn't. They might. They might have sent them to a leadership development program, but these people go back to an environment where good leadership is not that common. So they don't really get necessarily to put into place and to practice the things that they've learned. And. And they. And they struggle with that. And so, you know, I hear that. I hear that fairly constantly, and it does get a little discouraging at times to hear that.

Yeah.

So, you know, my own mission is to just impact as many people as I can and help them be better at. Better at this, better at. Better at leadership, better at life, all those things.

Right on. Yeah, it. So I'm reminded of something I learned way back in organizational theory class in college, where the professor said something along the lines, like, you will have to manage up, and that is a very important skill. So thinking of leadership in the reverse direction. So that phrase kept bouncing around while I was listening. And so I was wondering, like, do you have. Like, how do you think about managing up? Because it seems like that's really aligned to your core mission.

Yeah, it's a great. You know, it's a great point. And I'm really so glad you brought this up, because it is one of the biggest challenges when I coach people individually as leaders. I think one of the things I'm gonna. Let me just think. I. I think I could say this. Almost 100%, almost 100 of the time, I'm helping them manage their relationship with their boss almost 100 of the time. At some point in the process, at some point it comes to that, it could be just a. It could be just a small challenge that they're having that they really need to kind of role play and think through how to deal with it, or it could be an ongoing conflict that they're trying to make sense of for themselves, like, can I stay in this organization and continue in this environment with this person, or do I need to make a change? I mean, you know, that's a pretty big gamut, but I. I can't think of a. I can't think of a person that I've coached who's in a. In an organization, because I coach executives and I coach business owners and business owners, you know, more or less their own boss. They have different issues. But the people in organizations are really, at one point or another, having a struggle with managing their relationship with their boss. So I. I really like to. I really like to ask about that on a fairly frequent basis. You know, how are you? How are you doing? How are you and your boss getting along? What. What challenges do you have? What. What's that relationship like? What are you getting from that person? What. What are you giving to that person? Because there's this old saying, I think it was Zig Ziglar that said it first. You can help. You can get anything you want in life if you help enough other people get what they want. And it's so true, and it's so true of your relationship with your boss. Like, I like to have people think about what is it that's important to your boss? Do you know what's most important to your boss? And what are you doing to help them get that? So how are you supporting them? How are you helping them? And. And a lot of times people haven't even thought about that because they just think, you know, that person's responsible for telling me what to do. I, you know, I. I am not responsible for them. But you can make your life a lot easier if you figure out what's important to your boss and you try to align your own activities and priorities against, you know, up against that. I'm not saying to do that inauthentically. I'm saying figure it out. Like, figure out how you and I can align around the outcomes that we're looking for and what we're going to do when we don't align. So I just think that the person being managed has just as much responsibility in that relationship as the boss does, sometimes more. Because a lot of times the boss is not aware that there's an issue. They think everything's fine. Because people tend to act as if things are fine even when they're not. So I. I think you have a responsibility when things aren't fine to help fix them. I'm a big believer, Sean, and I know you are, too, in, you know, taking personal responsibility, you know, whatever that. Whatever that means in the situation. You know, you may not be responsible in the sense that it's your fault, but you need to take responsibility to move things forward. You know, just find a way. Like, I don't know how this happened, but let's figure out what we can do to move forward. Yeah, I'm not taking the blame. I don't. I don't think I am to blame. I don't care who is to blame. Let's figure out how we have to move forward. So, yeah, I. I think maybe a little unconventionally about that relationship than other people do, but I think it's a big responsibility to be part of a team and to do the best you can for your organization and for your. The person who's. Who you're responsible to.

Absolutely. It's so funny how people struggle on teams, and usually it's because it's not. There's no awareness for anyone else. You know, I think if we could zoom out of this conversation, it's being aware of yourself and everyone around you. It's being curious to focus, figure out what's really going on before jumping into action. And I think that is such an important thing. Like for the. My best managers, I knew exactly what they were going for. I know what they were measured on, and I knew how to communicate. Like, hey, this will help. You have this number, which helps the team, which helps everyone, helps the organization move forward. So it's. Yeah, it's such. I just. We're not typing this out, but this should be like triple underlined in the conversation. This is such an important point. So I think I agree. Oh, oh, yeah, Yeah.

I, I mean, I agree. I. I just think it's something that people miss a lot. And, you know, we see it sometimes when we do the 360 type review and we, and we see the feedback that people sometimes get from their boss. Here's something that can be surprising is, you know, people tend to get pretty shook up about those three 60s sometimes because it's, it's news, you know, it's not what they thought at all. Here's what people think of me. It's really different than what I thought they thought of me. And especially when it's the boss, because it, to me, it shouldn't come as a surprise what your boss thinks of you. You should know that. You should be asking about that. Yeah. And maybe your boss isn't being honest. That could be. But for the most part, that shouldn't come as a surprise. And if it does, shame on the boss and shame on you both, because you know, you're gonna hide behind a, you know, the anonymity of an assessment to say what you shouldn't be. Should be talking about out in real. In real life, real communication. So. But it happens a lot, and I see it. And you know, people are devastated sometimes by what they learn in their 360s and it's tough love. You know, they've got it. It's really, you know, it may be difficult to read and it may be difficult to take in, but it's really important for you to know.

Absolutely. And I think this is, this feels like a really natural place again to plug coaching because the 360 is among your peers. And I think there's a social element that makes it kind of brutal from what I've seen in organizations, you know, like, I thought we were cool and that, you know, I'm getting this honest Feedback. And of course, if you really want to serve, like, you'll realize that, oh, I'm triggered emotionally right now, I need to deal with that emotion. And then, okay, I now have information to move forward. Whereas a coach can help you find blind spots in a way that's a little bit more private. And I think that's super. If anyone is on a team leading, I'll make that case over and over again that it's much easier on your feelings. You could probably get just as good of a. An outcome. Not 100%. Like, you know something, sometimes your perspective of your team, it doesn't really match what's really going on, which is why the assessment, I think, is so awesome. But, yeah, having that private conversation of like, where are your blind spots? And let's have a process to help you learn that about yourself before it becomes a problem. Super important.

Yeah. One of the 360 that we use. I mean, among the things it does is it measures certain skills that are really important for leaders to have, but it also measures how you do against the things that are. That typically derail people from their desired path. And, you know, and they're just the kinds of things you can imagine. They're. They're all interpersonal things. You know, they're just ability to interact with people effectively. And, you know, sometimes people have a real hard time with that, you know, managing conflict with other people, because we'll just. We'll just be conflict avoidant. You know, we want to make sure. We don't want to rock the boat. We don't want to have a conversation with somebody that we think is going to hurt their feelings or that they're going to take it badly. But those things don't go away on their own. They only get worse. So making sure that you. And this is where a coach can be so helpful is just helping you set up that conversation to have it in a real productive way. Way that helps you achieve the outcome that you're after. And it. It doesn't have to be contentious, I guess, is the word I would use. It could be really very beneficial to both parties if it's approached the right way. I love one of the things that Brendan has said to us about. You can say anything if you've positioned it correct. Right. Yeah, you frame it up. You frame it up and then you say it. You can. And I, And I've always lived by that. You know, you tell people this is going to be difficult, a difficult conversation that we need to have, but we need to have it.

Absolutely. And having. You need to be able to speak the truth in leadership, because that's how everyone knows, okay, this is a problem, or this is our way through this problem to get back into momentum and back into the future. And I absolutely love that framing insight from Brendan Burchard, too.

Who.

Yeah, both of our favorites.

It was one of my favorites from this past summit that we were at together.

Yeah, me too. Like, I. Yeah, I took so many notes on that. And that could be a whole other podcast on just what happened at the summit. Might have to work on that.

I know. Could be one for sure. That was awesome.

Right on. So I think you. So I like to ask this question, and I'm going to be direct with it because I think we kind of hinted around it. So what kind of mindset or belief do you have about leadership that's uncommon amongst other leaders or other folks in this space?

Okay. I think that one of the things is, well, certainly a level of responsibility, a level of personal responsibility that I think people should take around leadership in all directions, you know, and it. And it means different things in different relationships. So that's one thing. The other thing is, when I think about the roles that I've played over the years, I. I really think of leadership as a big responsibility, for sure, but also a really big privilege. Now, when I facilitate a group of leaders at the Leadership Development Institute, one of the things I always say to them at the end of the week is, you know, it's a privilege to do this work, and it's a privilege to help help shape leaders. But I think that's. That's a. That's a true statement for anybody that's in leadership that being a leader is a privilege that you should not take lightly. And you're kind of like a steward of your team, and there was somebody there before you, there's going to be somebody there after you. And your job is to just make, you know, have the best positive impact you can have on that group of people as a team and as individuals in the time that you have the privilege of leading them. Them. And so it's just I. I look at leadership in that way, and I don't necessarily test other people to. If they're leading that way, but it is the standard that I hold myself to. So, you know, that's. When I see it with other people, I'm delighted. But these days, I'll just take some basic human. Human behavior, you know, like being. Being human, you know, sharing humanity, being kind and compassionate and curious without judgment. Of other people. I think, you know, those are, to me, those are, those are the standards. You know, there's a lot more there, but at least that.

Right on. I love that. And so now I have to. I want to ask about something that's currently going on in leadership, which I think is a really good case study. And maybe you're following it, maybe not. But how do you think. Through Twitter and Elon Musk taking over? Because it's really interesting. I could see a bunch of different ways where it's pretty good. And there's some huge deficiencies, I think, having worked in tech and understanding how organizations and people work. But what are your, like, thoughts on all of that?

You know, I honestly don't know what to think about that. And that is a, that is a true statement because, yeah, I, I think, you know, it's. It's like watching a train wreck in a way. You know, it's kind of like I just don't get what's going on. I, I get that Elon Musk has a degree of genius. I get that he's certainly done some incredible things. And then I see these moments of it just. I just don't get it. You know, it's like, why would you do that? What. What was the, what was the reason behind it? I can't. I can't think with him on any level. So it's really hard for me to have an opinion. I just know that. I feel. Here's the thing is, I feel bad. I feel badly for the people that work there because it must be on a daily basis. It's like, it's got to be like getting battered back and forth like a tennis ball almost. You know, just like, there's no sense. I don't, I don't see what the sense of direction is. And I think when there's no direction, it's hard for people to align around where they're going. And when there's no alignment, there's hard for there to be commitment about, you know, commitment or buy in to. Yeah, okay, I get what we're trying to accomplish, and I'm in. And in, In a case like that, where things are just changing on a daily, maybe hourly basis, how do you get any sense of grounding? So I do think, when I look at that from a leadership, I think it's a failure of leadership for sure, because I think that a leader's responsibility is to help people feel grounded with a sense of direction and also, you know, just the ability to align around some common goal. Or some common outcome that you're trying to achieve, and then, you know, getting people to commit to that, what their, what their contribution is to that. And I don't see any of that happening there. So I just kind of feel sorry for the people that are, I feel badly. I shouldn't say I feel sorry because they're making a choice to be there or not. Maybe it's just, it's not, it isn't, it isn't the kind of leadership that, that I like to see in an organization by any stretch. So I hope that helps. I mean, I, it's hard to have an opinion about it, though, because I, I, I don't understand it. I just don't get it.

Yeah, yeah, I, I think a lot of people are in that boat, but I, I think about it quite a bit and like. Yeah, the thing that I'm most curious about is, like, if you need to sell the farm, you don't have to burn it while you're in the process of making changes. And it seems like there's a lot of unnecessary pain being inflicted. But I think it's interesting, the challenge of, like, if you want to be here, really be here, you know, and, yeah, it's really complex. I don't know what to make of it myself, but.

So would you like to be his coach?

I have thought about that, and I don't, I don't think so, actually. I think I would love to help and serve him in that way. I'm not sure he's taking applications for other people's opinions.

Is, Yeah, I don't necessarily consider him coachable.

Yeah, yeah, I, I agree with that. So, unfortunately. But we'll see what happens. It'll be interesting. I'm sure business schools and leadership institutes will be talking about this for years to come.

Oh, this will be a big case study for Harvard Business School, I'm sure.

Yeah. Okay. So I was curious, as we're wrapping up, if there were two or three habits for new leaders to start or established leaders to really lean into, to up their leadership, what would be your initial kind of suggestion? I guess there's two different folks. It's beginners and then people that are currently leading.

Yeah, sure thing. I, I think number one would be appreciation. Show more appreciation for people. I think that I don't know anybody, and I ask this question. A lot of people, if they're, if they feel appreciated, and I think more than, more often than not, the answer to that question is not enough. Not enough feedback, not enough recognition, not enough appreciation. And I think that's. Those are really important things to be providing to people. You know, kind of honest feedback, appreciation and, and recognition of the contributions that they're making or the struggles that they're having and overcoming. Just being really cognizant of that and finding ways to make it a habit now. And believe me, sometimes people tell me that they orchestrate their appreciation. So they have a time of day when they send an email out to someone on their team with something specific about what they did, but it's actually, they have to schedule it to remember to do it. And I don't have any problem with that. I think as long as the message is authentic and it's specific, I don't, you know, do whatever you have to do to make it the right kind of habit. But I think appreciation is first and foremost, but also just being, teaching yourself, you know. The second thing I would say is learning. Just never stop. I don't care if you're new at this or you've been doing it forever. There's always more that you can learn. Make learning a habit. You know, read good books, listen to good podcasts, attend, you know, attend development leadership development programs, book online for, you know, what, what things you can learn. There's so much information out there. There's so much really good information out there. So be a learner. And then the third thing is like, and it may not go with the other two, but don't take yourself so seriously.

Yeah.

It'S not all about you. It really is about the people that you're trying to help. And when you do that with great sincerity and open mind and an open heart, and people will forgive a lot of mistakes, believe me. I, I can tell you that I made a ton of mistakes. And when I owned a mistake and just said, look, I, I don't know why I went off the rails here, but I did. I apologize. Let's figure out how to move forward now. People are very forgiving. People are very understanding when you're. When you approach them with an open heart and an open mind and know, just genuine desire to help and serve. So those are, I guess those are the three things I would, I would.

Say, oh, that's fantastic and solid, solid advice. On a side note, one of the coolest things about interviewing friends and folks here is just seeing how a lot of the people that I do know have a lot of shared values, which has been super surprising at how much more aligned I am with folks. And so I would stand by that, that those pieces of advice Myself, but just wanted to point that out and acknowledge that, so thank you.

Yeah, well, thanks for saying that. You know, I. I think you're right, though, about. I think one of the great things that you get to do in your seat is. Is just, you know, learning some of the things that go on behind the scenes with people that we, we know and we interact with, but we don't. We don't know a lot. We don't know everything for sure. And what a great opportunity to have this exchange of ideas here, Sean, and, And talk through some of these things that are so important to me. I appreciate. Yeah.

I'm. I feel very honored to be able to hold this space. And this is. Is super, super fun. So, before we. We wrap up, another question I've been asking folks more recently is, is there anything that you could share on the podcast today that you haven't maybe in another interview, podcast, book, or piece of content about leadership?

H. That's a really good question. You know, and I heard. I've heard you ask this to other people, so I should have really probably thought about it before. I, you know, I don't. I. I don't. Nothing comes to mind because I, I just, I'm. So one of the things that I think is, okay, I. I have something. I think one of the things that is a. Has been a struggle for me over the years is this whole idea of being really present. And so one of the things I do routinely is to work on that. So I meditate. I have not. I've been meditating for over 10 years. I have not missed a day in it in more than four years.

Wow.

Yeah. That meditation practice is really important for me. It's made a huge difference in my life. It is the thing that has allowed me to be more present. So, for example, when I'm. When I'm teaching or coaching, I think presence is so critical, you know, to really be there in the moment. Now, when you're trying to do that from eight in the morning till six at night, that's exhausting to be that present. But I. I really want to be there every minute hearing everything that's going on, whether I'm in the front of the room or not. So working on being and more present all the time and, And I think. I think if there's, you know, one thing I probably haven't shared is that, that, that has been a bit of a struggle for me, and I've had to work really hard at it. And I think it would surprise people to know that about Me?

Wow. Yeah. Surprised me. So.

I practiced a lot. I'm getting better. I'm getting better.

That's, that's why. Well, I just want to honor that, that recognition in yourself and then the work to course correct. And so I'm also curious then, like, is there anything you do specifically to be aware when you're not present? Like, I know that sounds like a weird question. We'll see if it works.

But, yeah, no, I, you know, I don't, I don't know. I, I think, well, again, with meditation, one of the things that you recognize and, you know, we, we call, they call this monkey mind, you know, where you're, A lot of people tell me I can't meditate because my, my, you know, my head is just like, ideas are just bouncing around constantly in my head, and that's monkey mind. And by the way, even with 10 years of practice, I have that too. There are days where I meditate and at the end of the meditation, I say to myself, I don't think I was here at all. I was completely somewhere else. And now the bell went off, time is up, and I don't think I got anything from it. And my meditation teacher one time said to me, cheryl, don't judge it. Which was probably the best advice I could have gotten. So I just try to, when I catch myself and I, and that could be after a moment, or it could be after many moments. I, when I realize I'm not being present, I just try to get, you know, centered again and maybe take a couple deep breaths or something just to get me back in the space where I want to be. And I just make a point of ignoring devices and things like that when I'm having a conversation with people. Because I had a boss once who, whenever he was having a conversation with me, he was always, like, looking over my shoulder, trying to figure out who else was in the room that he want, that he wanted to talk to that was more important than me. And I always remember that little visual, like, I want to make sure that people realize when I'm in conversation with you that you're important to me. I, I want you to know that I'm, this is important to me to have this conversation. So I, I, I try not to be distracted in the, in that. And, you know, as soon as I realize I'm, I'm not where I'm supposed to be, I try to. Course. Correct.

Right. Yeah. I, I love that. It's something, I think secretly we all could use a little more work in. And being Present. I manage it by making sure during the day I do some type of physical activity, like going for a walk or I find sometimes when I have that monkey mind, it's actually physical energy that I just need to get out of my body. So. But everyone has, has their own tactics and tips and tricks, and so I'm always curious about how, how people manage that. So thanks for sharing.

Sure thing.

So with that said, let's, let's wrap up. Like, where can the people follow up with you, learn more about you, order your book, get involved in leadership after this conversation.

Well, sure. Well, Sean, I think I sent over to you a link tree link and people could choose what the best way that they want to interact with me.

Right on. That'll be in the show notes. So if you're watching this on YouTube or it's you're listening, wherever you listen to podcasts, you'll find that below. Cheryl, thank you so, so much for this amazing conversation. I love nerding out about leadership with you. I'm actually going to do some journaling after this because I'm remembering a lot of things and I'm like, okay, I need, I want to capture that. But thank you for your presence and thank you for the awesome discussion.

Well, Sean, thanks for the opportunity. It's been so great having this conversation with you. I've really, really enjoyed it. And I don't know, you know, it's always fun for me to talk about this topic, but I really just loved your questions and your insights and it was really, it was really a lot of fun. Thanks for the opportunity.

Of course. Hopefully you'll come back here in a little bit, can have another part two conversation. That would be awesome.

Love to do that anytime. Awesome.

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