Maker Culture, Community, And The Murky Middle with Dara Brady | Meaningful Revolution Podcast

I think making things is essential. I think it's something we naturally do. If you look at little kids, they make stuff all the time. Sometimes it's just a mess. Yeah. But I just think that it's. For me, it's just such a core part of who I am. It's a whole language that I'm kind of completely invested in.

Hey everyone. Welcome to the Meaningful Revolution podcast, the show where we talk about what people do meaningfully in their lives with the key belief that we can inspire you to double down on your passions. So we believe if you can add 1% more meaning in your life, you can live a life of fulfillment and to your full potential. But most importantly, we're hoping to improve your meaningful work to busy work ratio. So doing the things that you absolutely love. Today I am really excited for our guest who is a crafter artist, non binary mama educator, writer, board gamer, sewist Midwestern queer living in Santa Cruz mountains like a gnome, always up to mischief. They are the owner and creative director of Scape School, a recovering educator and a prolific maker. And we'll hear that term a lot today. I'd love to introduce you to my good friend Dara Brady. Dara, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Sean. It's great to be here.

Awesome. So today we're going to be talking about being a prolific maker because, you know, from our conversations before the show and friendship over time, you know, I know that you're into so many different things where you're creating, you're making things like you said, you know, in the intro, you're a sewist. I know that you've done all sorts of art things, you know, and I know you pour your heart into whatever is in front of you, whether that was teaching your skate school now, which maybe we could talk about later, but I'd love to know, you know, first, like, why is. Could you define maybe what a prolific maker is for yourself, for the audience? And then why is like artistry and creating and crafting and all those different fields really important to you?

Yeah, great question. I think making prolific maker is for myself, someone who listens to that quiet, curious voice all the time and just follows it wherever it goes. Like it's sort of like going on a hiking trip but you don't know where you're going. You just know that the beginning of the trail looks super interesting and you heard a cool noise down there and you're curious what's going to appear. And, and so sometimes, like right now, the rabbit hole, I'm down is graphic novels. And I'm trying to make my own graphic novel memoir, which we can talk a little bit more about. But sometimes it's. I'm interested in music and sound and I'm aware of the sounds going on. And, you know, I used to play piano, and so maybe I want to bring that back in my life. And let's follow that. It usually for me involves trips to the library, endless random searches on every Internet thing I can find until my space is physically full and mentally full of stuff. So if it's sewing, like, the room is full of fabric and, you know, patterns and sketches and there's ideas flooding in my head and imagery that I'm looking at and I'm trying to, like, where is the thing that is pulling me in? Like, almost trying to find the center of this interest. So that's a very long winded way, I guess, to say that making is so much a part of who I am. It's. It's like a way of being in the world. And at times it feels like a different language. And I forgot the second part of your question.

So remind me, oh, why is this important to you? Or what was there maybe a story of how you got into the embodying making?

Yeah, well, I think it's important to me. It's so empowering to make something. I mean, it can be the littlest thing. Like, we just moved into a tiny house and I'm not working as an educator for the first time in many, many years, public school educator. And so trying to save money. And I think of that as like, okay, that's a design challenge. So I need a keyboard tray, but I don't want to buy a keyboard tray, so. Well, I know how to use woodworking tools and I've seen keyboard trays. So let me go look and see if I can figure out how it's made. And to do that, to go through that process and yeah, it'd be so much faster to just, you know, go on Amazon and order a keyboard tray. But there's something meaningful about, like, the tray right in front of me is made from a scrap of wood. And I built this and I put it here, and it's just where I want it. And it has a story now. And. And so I think making things feels like making stories and making little things, tangible things that help you connect with different parts in your life and different parts of yourself. So it's incredibly meaningful to me. And I think I've always been around makers of one type or another. So I think growing up in that, it just was a way of being. My dad is an artist, and as a kid was always, you know, he was always tinkering around. He wasn't making art when I was young. I think he was trying to make money for the family to eat and all those things. But there was a wood shop in the basement, and there was always scraps of wood, and there were always little things you could make and play with. And I guess I got a lot of attention when I made stuff too. Like, you get out the hammer and nails and like, your parents are paying attention, like, what's going on over there? And let's work on safety and things like that. But there was a mentorship that would happen immediately. And I think I learned a lot of that from my dad and just being in those spaces. And then my mom's a voracious reader. So that sort of reading, being surrounded by volumes and volumes of books, maybe more than I'll ever read in my lifetime put that, you know, like, I'm interested in something, so this is a way you can learn about this. So I think that was set at a really young age. And then, you know, I had to find my own way through that journey, to find my own. What's my own way of making and being right on.

And so I love that idea. You said mentorship and what, like, two great examples to have a parent and your dad who is actively, you know, creating stuff and then have the research to kind of back it up. So, you know, so you have, like, the research in your mom. You have the. Then translating that into the real world. And there is some type of magic in creating things, whether that's a meal, a chair, keyboard, tray, like something that you can actually see and be proud of, you know, like. Like my dad was a carpenter and like a construction worker growing up. So, like, the amount of pride that he took in, like, you know, changing somebody's windows out and making it all kind of look nice and stuff, you know, there's. There's that quality that. That I feel like we miss a lot in this digital world. And, like, having been a programmer, there's so much work that went into computers that is just, like, probably still there in some of the companies I worked at before, probably still working. But it's this abstract idea of, oh, now you can, like, order things in pounds instead of items. You know, like, what does that really, really mean? So I love that idea. So getting back to, like, when people find meaning in things, it's usually in things that they do or things that they create. And it's usually in relationships. And so having those important relationships and mentoring. So I'm wondering then, how have you taken that model of mentorship and relationship building and creating and pull that into your life now? Right? So you talked a little bit about growing up.

How.

How did those. How do those lessons now apply?

They apply so much. You know, I think one thing you just mentioned about, like, making community, I think, is a big thing. And then also talking about kind of the. I think we're touching around this idea of maybe a handmade something versus a, you know, instant purchased something. And the instant satisfaction of like, oh, I have it today, right? I can go on and order something. And it appears. And something about the way that we're living at this moment where we've really completely shaken up our, you know, living space, our habits, our patterns, everything is just like a whole new reinvention. And one of those is, you know, like I said, I love to gather books, right? But if you're in a tiny house, you don't have room for piles of books or you can't get, you know, to the kitchen. And so realizing, oh, the public library, like that, that's where I need to reconnect. And connecting with that community of other people who love reading is a huge thing. And then realizing we live in a really fairly small town at this point and, you know, the local library doesn't have everything I want, but I love these moments when I want a book and we don't have it anywhere in our county. And they say, well, we could do a loan, you know, we could reach out to other counties to try to get it, but it's going to be a really long time. I mean, are you up for waiting? I'm like, yeah, I'm totally up for waiting. Because now I get to, like, be excited, right? Like, when's it going to come? And then all of a sudden, I get this text message, go to the library, books there. And I'm like, all right, it's like the most exciting moment of the day. And I think that there's something that I'm enjoying about the anticipation of things that aren't instant. So that's one part of something that has changed and morphed a bit as we're in this new space. I'm also building community. Just personally, as I've come out as queer and non binary, I realized, oh, I need a community of people that understand me, you know, and so that's a building. That's a Researching and where do I find those people? And then how do I make that connection? How do I have a conversation on zoom in some kind of group and then grow that. So it's a similar mindset. I think, right now as far as, like, physical making things. Like I said, I'm working on a graphic novel, which is super interesting. I've never done anything like that. And I am kind of going back to my early education, art school education, where I learned basic drawing skills. Skills and composition and design and. Oh, yeah, that was helpful. And I need to remember. Let me. I'm a little rusty. Let me start just practicing and practicing and doing that daily practice and figuring out how do these daily practices build up to something bigger. And so that's something I'm, you know, really immersed in and excited about right now. Just before that, it was game boards and board game design, and who can I talk to about board games and how do they make them and, you know, what are the mechanics and who's represented? And I just love these little worlds when I bump into something that I don't know anything about, and then I find out there's this whole world and community of people, like, super geeked out about it. Okay. I want to come and watch, and I want to understand this world that. I don't know. It's like. I don't know. It's just really exciting for me.

Yeah, right on. So I. I'm. This is the question that. That came to my head, so I'm just gonna ask it, and that's. Is there a community that you've encountered so far that you were really, like, impressed with or surprised about or. Or like, oh, this is kind of like, I want to be part. I want to replicate this maybe in other parts in your personal life and professional life or other areas or a different community?

Yeah, I mean, there's so many. I feel like as an educator, being trained as an educator, I'm constantly looking at how people put things together and present them and how ideas come to be and how. How they create that community. I think as an educator, that's one of the main things you need to do. And so I've taken so many different experiences and mushed them all together to create what I'm making, which is scape school as a company. Some of those influences are ido, the design company. They have an IDEO university, and I took some courses there, and I plucked little bits from that that I enjoyed that they have cohort classes. So I'm in the class at the same Time as other people. That was really meaningful and powerful to me that there were people from all different walks of life, from all over the country and all over the world. That was fascinating to me. I also, in coming out, you know, as non binary and really meeting support groups, I stumbled across the Billy Defrank center in San Jose, which is an LGBTQ community center. It's amazing. And they have all these online discussion groups. So I started talking, just joining any random one that I felt like I sort of fit in and trying them all out and seeing some that felt like me and some didn't feel like me, and some I said, well, I'm gonna go two weeks and then decide if it feels feels like me. Because sometimes, you know, it's just a different mix of people. Every time there's a different group of people, it's a different space. So one of my favorite groups that they have is a writing group. So we don't really, it's not really like, let's get together and talk about being queer. It's, let's get together and write and we're going to have serious prompts and ridiculous prompts. One week wrote about socks. I'm not really sure why, but it was a hilarious week. And, you know, it all comes. All of the parts of our identity come out in writing and it's this safe place where we don't have to explain or justify our existence. And so I think those different little experiences are what I'm trying to pull together into scape school. And then also just my years of being in the classroom and the just total trial and error over and over and over and fail and get back up. And fail and get back up. That is being a classroom teacher. Yeah, right on.

Okay, could you maybe explain a little bit more about scape school? Since that's come up a couple of times? I'm sure people, people are thinking like, what is that?

Yeah, so we're in pre launch, so it's not out there. You can't find it. You're hearing top secret things right now. Yeah. So it's a community space. It's called Scape School. But it's not like a. It's not a replacement for K12 education or adult education in that way. But it is a learning space and it's a space where you can continue to work with someone for more than, like, you know, a set amount of time. You know, public school is okay. You have this one year with this person. Well, what if that mentor really connects for you on a deep level? And Then you have to say goodbye. And that doesn't make sense. Sense to me. So it allows for a longer mentorship to happen. It's courses, mentorship and community groups all around arts, writing and technology. So any of the arts, basically it's my passions currently is guiding the courses because if I'm not excited and don't care about it, then, you know, none of us are gonna have fun. So I go down these rabbit holes of inquiry and interest and research and I make a mess in my studio and then I come out and I say, hey, you wanna do this too? I won't do anything. I don't. I won't ask my students to do anything I haven't done myself. So yes, there will be a graphic noveling class coming up at some point, but I first have to make my own. So I know what, you know, what the hell I'm doing. And so scape school. It just came out of this need to teach in a different way, in a different space and to be able to make a really strong, safe statement about LGBTQ people and connect with those people through art. And, and the other part is that I, it goes along with the mentorship piece. I worked at a school that was multi age, so I'd have the kids for two years and parents would often say at back to school night after they hear what my plan is for the year, I wish I was in the class and I started thinking, yeah, why can't they be like, why can't grandma come in and learn about 3D printing while their grandchild is, why aren't we, why isn't it more of a bigger community? And so that's one of the eventual goals is having anybody 10 years old and above mix ages all in one class. And it might be a total mass, but it's just a experiment. I have to try because I need to see what happens. I think there's magic in having a common topic in the house. Like we're all talking about board game design and maybe the parents or the adults in the house are focused on a more adult version of a game and the kids are focused on a more simplistic, slightly innocent version of the game. But we can all talk about game mechanics, we can talk about our process and what's frustrating and what's joyful. And I think there's, I learn every day from my 5 year old going on 20 year old. He has great wisdom. So why do we group kids in schools just based on how old they are? And I think that's one of the things that I'm trying to question with.

This business, I absolutely love the idea of getting in to somebody's home and having a common topic. Because unless it's like paw patrol, I've heard my friends talk about that. Or like another like, kid focus thing, or it's like an adult thing, but to like, have that, like, oh, we're all kind of working on building this board game together. Maybe, you know, mom or dad are like woodworking from one of your courses, like the board. And then the kids come up with, like, the story or whatever. Like, I just love that idea of that inspiration for commonality and the home. You just have that. That topic. So.

Yeah, I'm going to interrupt you. I think also that I heard recently that most couples. I'm sorry I can't quote where, but I heard recently that most couples speak an average of like 35 minutes a week with each other.

Wow.

And just. Yeah, it blew my mind. And I will find out where because I vaguely remember so I can find out where if you want to actually put it in there. It was a pretty powerful little book about couples and relationships. And that also made me think about how much do we actually talk with our kids in the house and talk about anything meaningful, like, do we just talk about what time this is and the chores you need to do and, you know, the. The practical daily stuff, or do we actually talk about, like, what are you passionate about? What are you curious? What are you thinking about? What do you wish we would do? And so I think giving people a space that gives them that inspiration and topic. I just want to see what it does.

Yeah, I want to do. I think, like I said, I absolutely love this idea and have been very excited for you as you've been on this journey of figuring out what scape school really is. So trying to think of the next best question because there's a couple of different angles that we could go from the last bit you just said. So we started out wanting to talk about being a prolific maker. We've talked a lot more about community than I think either of us might have been expecting. Which is great. Is there from either. How do I phrase this, Heather? Been as you've been creating any, like, big obstacles, struggles, or things that you felt stuck for a while and how did you maybe work through those as we all have in those topics?

But yeah, I don't think you can make without struggling. At least I've never been able to make anything without struggling. I mean, especially if you're truly trying to Invent something, and it's just a part of the process. It would be pretty amazing and incredibly rare for you just to sit down and make the perfect thing like, it's just not gonna happen. So I call it the murky middle. And I learned at some point that to value and get excited when that happens. It's a feeling. Like, I feel it in my body when I'm in that space. I feel anxious. I feel a little bit annoyed. I'm frustrated. I can't mentally figure my way out of it, which is infuriating. I want to try 5,000 possibilities in my head, and there has to be one of them here, and I can't figure it out. And, you know, and so that struggle, that murky middle comes up, and then it's what you do in that moment. And how can you switch the feeling from, you know, beating yourself up? I think often I see it in kids. I see it in adults as well. We just get to that murky middle. It gets hard, it gets messy. We don't know our way out. And so then we start saying all these horrible things about ourselves, right? Like, oh, you're not experienced enough. You don't know what you're doing. Like, you know, just the voice of give up is just right there. And it would be so easy just to just go, yeah, I'm done. Throw all that junk I collected. Just throw it away. I'm going to start something new. This isn't my thing. But I think at some point I learned that that means you're onto something incredible. You just got to give it a little more time. It means that you actually hit on something that doesn't have an easy, logical answer. It's not Googleable. It's something you have to puzzle out. And that might mean, yeah, you just let it sit on the back burner for, you know, six months, and then all of a sudden, like, you know, you can busy yourself. I mean, I have multiple projects going on right now. I don't assume that I'm just going to have one project going at any one time. I think there's something about keeping yourself moving so that the inertia doesn't set in and you just can't move, you know? So, yeah, I might get stuck on where to go with the graphic novel, and I go sit down and play the piano for half an hour, and I might feel frustrated because I screw up at the piano because I haven't practiced and my head wants to beat me up. And I just go, yeah, but you're here. Right now. So let's practice, you know, or it might be get up and go for a walk and just go talk to a friend or listen to a podcast, like, get something else in your head. And because that puzzle is still there and you're thinking about it, it's going to seep into the project and you're going to find your solution. So, yeah, murky middle. That's where it's. That's when you know you're on to the good stuff.

Yeah. So I'm so glad you brought up the murky middle, because this is something for the audience. Like, Dara was a coaching client about two years ago now. I think I remember you bringing up this topic of the murky metal. And I have shared it with so many people because it's so helpful because I think we do all encounter it. And I love the. You're definitely, I would call a creative person because of, like, you get stuck somewhere, you go to a different project to get inspiration, to get a different perspective. Just give your mind a rest. Which is all based on, like, the high performance research that you need to have breaks and shake things up. But I hope for the folks listening or watching on YouTube here that you have that note put on a sticky note, stick it somewhere, that the murky middle is the one. The chance to get excited. Like, you want to get excited for that. Because I think the other thing you mentioned years ago to kind of like wrap this up is that, you know, when you're in the murky middle, you're also like this close to the payoff where you're going to have the creative breakthrough. It's gonna blossom. And beauty comes from breaking through that middle part.

Yeah, absolutely. You're right there. It's like, don't give up. This is actually. You're so close.

Yeah, absolutely. So good. I'm so glad you brought that up. So, okay, next best question here, I guess, are there any other struggles or challenges you want to talk about before pushing forward?

You know, the other struggle that comes to mind, I guess we have been talking a lot about community, but it comes to that too, I think. I guess, because community for me is so important, certainly right now in my life. I need it so much. And I think it's such a part of making. I mean, I'm an introvert. I'm a very proud introvert. And so, yeah, I need a balance of people and not people. I need a balance of big groups and small groups and all of those things. And I'm aware of that. But the Community can be. It can be. There can be a big community for an introvert, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.

So.

Building that for me is essential because when I'm done making a sketch, I want to show it to somebody. And I think it's this really natural. A friend of mine is a preschool teacher, and they were talking about how, you know, kids will be so engrossed in making something, building, building, building, building. And then all of a sudden, it's this moment and they turn around and they just want to, like, look at this thing, right? We all are still those little kids. We're like, look at this thing. Right? And we just want you to say nice stuff. We don't want the criticism or the feedback at that moment. We just want somebody to see us because we are in that moment of flow and that energy, and we're just proud. So if you're making things and you don't have that community of people that speaks your language, that's going to give you more, like, almost throw, you know, food, your direction, artistic food, making food, you know, your direction, it can be really hard because then you start to question, like, why am I doing this? What's the point? I'm just making stuff and putting in a box. Making stuff, putting in a box. And there is value for yourself. But I think if you have that community, it just, like, the value just grows so much. So on the flip side of that, what I'm not really saying, but I'm going to say now, okay, is that people can get in your way because not everybody understands what you're doing. And in many cases, for myself, I don't even understand what I'm doing. I just know that there's this little voice that's making me interested in this particular thing. And so I'm going to walk down that road, but I have no idea why I'm walking down that road. And so I can't necessarily articulate it to the people around me instantly. Right. So one example is I quit teaching this year. I'm on leave. And, yeah, that has financial implications. It can be really scary. And money brings big feelings for people.

Yeah.

Not knowing what you're doing for work. When you say, I'm stopping teaching to pursue some other dreams, then your identity has been boxed in around being an educator. That's one aspect of how people know you. So are you never teaching again? Are you leaving teaching? What are you gonna do for money? Like, all these really practical, intense questions came immediately. I don't have any answer. I don't know. I know that I need to build this company called Scape School, and I know that I need to follow this. And I know that I need to shake up our life because I'm commuting two and a half hours a day and I'm missing our son's early years, and I can't do it anymore. I know that my heart is breaking. And not everybody is going to support when you get curious and you shift things, because then they have to shift their understanding of who you are and they have to show up differently. And so I just think there's something about editing that's coming up really big in my mind lately. Editing, not just in, you know, what I'm doing. You're processing all the things you're making and editing. What's the good, what's the garbage, what's the oh, I need that back, I changed my mind kind of thing. But it's also editing the voices around you, whether that's on social media or what you're consuming or the people in your house or the people in your community and being thoughtful about that. So I think community is key because it is not the right community. It can. It can squash you completely. It can say all those awful things that you're already maybe thinking in your head when you're in the murky middle. They can just come right in and just say it for you, and then it's hard to get out. So having those people that just are there to enjoy the bad and the good.

Right on that. It's so true that especially in the US here, that, like, your job is. Is a part of you. And it. And it's like you're a teacher and like, just the. The way that, like the wording and logistics, it's like you were a teacher. You will always be a teacher. Like, it's this permanent attribute when, like, I'm going into, like, something else. But, like, it would probably be like, when you were working as a teacher, you were teachering. Like, it's a verb that it's something that you're doing and now that you're not. Like, you taught. Like, it's in the past, but I love. I know that when. That those things change again. You know, community is such an important thing because it can help you, like, free, you know, calm down when you're freaking out. Like, I've left corporate America a couple of times now in my life, and both times there's always the day, probably three days after you, you've left, you've Made that decision like you're fully committed and you're like riding the high of like, I'm taking control of my life. I feel like I'm engaged, I'm doing great things. And then it's like you wake up and you go into the fetal position in your bedroom and you're like, did I completely mess things up? And like, that's kind of the roller coaster. And community can help you be like you're good. Like, you can't get stuck in your bedroom freaking out. You gotta come out and like make things happen. So with that said, you know that aspect of community that like, you know, so it's a double edged sword. It could either smack you down or pull you up. But saying you got the community part right, I'm wondering, do you have any other habits or other strategies or tactics when you're in that messy middle, when you're the messy middle of a huge life transformation or in the middle of like, I guess a project that could be considered a project, but do you have any. What do you do in those moments where you, you need to like yourself, like pump yourself up in order to get through to the next action of creating or sewing or whatever. Building?

Yeah. Well, there's three things that came to mind. One is when I find myself closing down and this is something that I'm still working on. I, I hit a really low point over the past year and I think it was a mix of I was in the wrong community, I was in the wrong space, I was not being supported and was dealing with a lot of really aggressive things happening towards me and my identity. And I tend to go towards the invisible. That's my go to is make myself smaller, take up less space, don't let people notice me, then there won't be any lashing out. And I've noticed even now that I'm in, I feel like a really good space. Community wise, everything wise. That tendency can still creep up, so I can still go towards. Things are getting hard, things are overwhelming. I'm gonna go invisible. My good friend calls it screensaver mode. I'm here, but I'm not really here, right? So I'm actually. My feelings, my thoughts, they're all deep way down in. And I'm, you know, showing up at dinner and I'm talking, but I'm not actually present and here in my full self. And so what I've been starting to do is when I get those rumblings in my body, I usually feel it in my body first. Like I feel off, I feel Tense. Speak up is what I say in my head. When you feel like getting small, speak up. Something is happening that is causing me to not feel as safe, to not feel ready. So I think speaking up is huge. The other thing that is. Sorry, going back to that. Because when I don't speak up, then I get smaller, I get more invisible. And then, yeah, it's the can't get out of bed. It's the can't do the things I love and the creativity I want because. Because of this interaction that's really problematic. Right. And so how do I get myself out of it? I try not to get there. I work really hard not to get there. And it takes a lot of work, intentional work. And one of them is speak up. The other thing is routines. I don't have massive amounts of routines. I at one point was planning like every little thing because I love a good spreadsheet and I love a good planner plan. Everything when I'm having breakfast, everything, you know, gonna build this super planner. And I discovered that they just stressed me out and I didn't feel this like freedom and room in the day. So I realized how many routines do I actually need? And if they're starting to stress me out, then they probably need to change. One of the big ones for me is I knew this year as I just recovering as an educator, recovering as a human from so many things happening in our world. And for me personally, I knew I needed to get my body moving. I knew that I was not exercising enough and I knew that I needed a creative connection like first thing in the morning. So one of my big routines at this point, we live a few blocks from State park and so I hike every single morning. And I'll tell you, the first couple weeks I had said I'll hike for an hour. It was way longer than an hour. I just needed to sit and just like go in the middle of the forest and then just decompress. Like I think there is something about that we were talking about after leaving corporate America and just like, yeah, you want to curl up in the fetal position. Like, yeah, you just want to just sit there. And I think that's part of it. You have to just give yourself time to sit there. You just have to like shake all that off. So I hike every morning and at this point it is about an hour. I do 20 minute hike there. I do a 20 minute sketch or writing on whatever I want and then 20 minutes back. So that's a huge release, stabilizing routine. No matter what's Going on. I don't have to look pretty. I don't have to smell good. I don't have to do anything except get my hiking boots on. And the backpack is always ready. I think having things ready ahead of time is a big deal to keep you going on the key routines, like that backpack. I'm looking at it because it's hanging on the wall right here. It's always ready. So it's just grab the backpack, hiking boots on, walk out, and just start walking. And it doesn't require anything else in me. So I think routines is huge. And then for me, taking my time, like, just allowing myself, that it's okay, that my pace is different. I don't have to rush through an emotion. I don't have to rush through to get high energy. I can just be angry or be sad and just. Yeah, I'm just sad today. And I'm gonna take some time. I'm gonna cry. I'm gonna journal about it. I'm gonna make something. I'm gonna keep trying things because I don't like feeling sad or angry, But I'm gonna keep moving, you know, and I'm gonna reach out. I'm gonna reach out like crazy the second I'm not feeling myself and I'm just feeling super off and scared or whatever those uncomfortable feelings are. I must text, like, 30 people. It's ridiculous. And sometimes it's just like, hi, how are you? Because I don't want to talk about my stuff. I just want somebody to get me out of my head for a minute. And so it's just I reach out, and then these lovely again, that community is coming back. These lovely connections come back. Hey, how are you? Hey, you want to go for a hike? Yeah, let's do it tomorrow morning. Let's go get coffee. Like, those things just happen. And then I, you know, I get out faster from that little dark cave.

Yeah, that's amazing. And so I hope, again, people listening took some notes on there, because it. Like you said, you were teaching the last couple years with the pandemic and all that. I know how hard the teaching community at large really worked to try to be there for the students and try not to smooth over any disruption. And I know there's a lot of talking with you a couple years ago, the whiplash of switching directions four or five times a week when you're like, okay, I just did all this work. Now I have to, like, shove it aside and start over. This huge, huge effort. And I feel like, you know, we had this collective Crisis moment as species, you know, as humans. Like one defining experience that we all were touched by in some certain way. And it's so easy when we all kind of like shelled up, like you were saying, like are kind of get smaller, trying to get invisible because there are a lot of like physical threats with what is this virus and how does it spread and all that stuff. That was really scary. It was a very like, who's gonna get sick and what, what does that mean? Type thing. And I wanted to highlight, you mentioned, like when you have a little bit of inertia and momentum in that space, you can get stuck there. So I know from like my coaching business right now, there are a lot of people that are still in this, like, you know, turtle mode where I don't want to like leave the house. I'm still afraid that I'm going to get sick. You know, we have the, you know, vaccines and stuff, but I'm still kind of emotionally not ready to go out there or you're past that and you're trying to just cope with this new world and what it means and all the craziness with it. And you know, I love that you mentioned routines because I think the way out of the shellness, out of, you know, just trying to learn how to manage your emotions in this new world, that it's the routines that, that ground you, that give you that discipline, that, you know, I know that I got a 40 minute walk and 20 minutes of a creative endeavor to just center myself that is so super important. So, you know, so it's super important for Dara here. But I wanted to blow it up to that. We all have, that had this experience and it's applicable to every single person. So the universal truth. And I just wanted to tell, I guess go on a little story rant there.

So yeah, I think if I can interrupt you, I think it's. I think the routines just, they mean a lot. I found even like with my son now that I get to be home and pick him up after school and get that joy, but also the like, what are we gonna do for this many hours? And trying to figure that out and wanting him to have time to be bored, have time to, you know, mess around and not just structure every minute of his day, but also how do we find our rhythm and you know, going to the library. I mentioned how much I love the library at this point. And so I don't go by myself. I go with him and we go together. And so having those routines of, oh, this day is Library day. This day is grocery store day. And it can be simple things, but if you're doing them with someone you love and you enjoy them, it. It's something to look forward to. And then the rest of my day is really structured around just one thing. What's the one thing I need to do today? And so, like, today it's this podcast. How do I show up today for the podcast? Right. How do I. What are the things I want to do in the morning? Oh, I definitely want to go on my hike and get some sketching in. Yeah, probably going to want to take a shower for the podcast. You know, the practical things. But if you're focusing just on what's the one big thing, then it feels so doable, like, oh, it's just the one thing. And then invariably that one thing takes a lot less time and is way easier than I thought it was going to be. And I end up with extra time. And so now it's like, bonus time. Like, great, what am I going to do now? Oh, I could go play or maybe there's something else I can finish on this project, and then it can be a day ahead, you know? And so I just wanted to mention that is definitely a part of my structure as well, too.

Awesome. I'm a huge proponent of the number one thing, the daily mission, because. And just like you said, it's so simple. You know what you got to do, you do it. Inevitably, you're like, okay, I should do some more, and that the ball gets rolling. So I absolutely love that insight and connect with it. So. Right on. So real quick, I'm curious. We're talking about prolific making. We're talking about community. So we'll kind of merge those two topics because that's what the conversation. That's where it led us today. Do you have, like, two or three influences when you think about the act of being a maker or being building a making community, maybe that you think, oh, these are really good resources, or these are really good examples of how to embody.

Oh, that's a hard one. Because I'm. I'm thinking, like, most of mine are sort of personal, you know, they're not more universal, applicable. I guess for me, it's just finding someone that's passionate about something and then just asking them a ton of questions about it. So it can be really anyone. I feel like, you know, when I was interested in sewing, right. And I was kind of like, oh, I'm curious, curious about this. And my son was maybe a year old, maybe not even I just needed to get out of the house and do something for me. And so I signed up for a class at the local fabric store, and it turned out that I was the only one that ended up enrolling that night. And the teacher said. I said, oh, do you want to just. I can join another class? Like, I felt bad her being there just for one person. She said, no, no, it's fine. We'll just enjoy the evening together. She ended up being one of my really good friends. At this point, we just had a blast. I had no idea how to load the thread through the machine or what the bobbin was or what anything is called. I used a sewing machine, like, twice in my life, and I didn't know certainly how to make a garment. And the end of the evening, I had a, you know, most of a garment, and I was, like, stunned. And so then I took more classes from her, and then I took more. And then I found in those classes other people who were also interested in the same things I was. And then I started realizing that, oh, clothing isn't just this thing I put on. Clothing is this reflection of my identity. Oh, I'm super curious about that. What does that mean? So we talk more about that, and then I start looking at all these different sorts of clothing, and then I say, oh, what shows are about fashion? I've always thought of fashion as, like, this really superficial thing that I don't want to care about. And suddenly I was like, oh, wait, it has. It's a whole world. So to say, oh, these are some influences. Go and check out. I feel like I'd just be saying, go to Pinterest. I don't know. Because for me, it's. Yeah, find people in your community that are making something. You know, if there was somebody down the street who's making handmade shoes, like, I'd be super down there, like, checking it out. Because something that's, like, in the back of my mind, like, I'm really curious about that. I don't know how you make shoes. That sounds cool. So I think, yeah, it's. It's finding the people in your community that are already making and have a craft, per se, or have an art that you're curious about. I think there's so much value in showing up clueless as long as you just embrace that you're clueless. I think it's super fun to ask dumb questions and be like, I don't know why I just sewed. Like, that was making this garment at one point, and I sewed all the holes closed, like I'm supposed to hem the bottom and I just sewed the front and the back together and the sides and I just was like, I guess I made a pillow. There's comedy in those moments and if you can go in, just have zero expectations for yourself. Except I'm going into a world I don't know or understand and I'm gonna learn something. So yeah, that's how I would get connected with things is just find the people in your community. Community colleges, any sort of. Yeah, just Google whatever you're curious about. There's people.

Right on. So I'll, I'll plug Scape School here. I think you would be a really great mentor if you've connected with, with Dara to check that out. I'm not sure if you have a pre launch page or not, but keep an eye.

I don't, I don't yet. I'm keeping everything pretty close right now because I, I'm. I want to be really intentional about what I'm doing. But it will be coming soon. I can't say when but I will let you know so you can let people know.

Right on. Yeah, we'll definitely. We'll have yet back on to talk all about Scape School and I, I wanted to get your thought on how much of exploring these topics and I love the innate curiosity you have about the world and you know, some people would call like the beginner's mind of just like I showed up, I asked all the dumb questions. It was really fun. But so this idea of play, like it always. When you describe delving into one of the many things that you're interested, you know, at the moment that there's a sense of like exploration and fun and playing. Could you talk a little bit about that? A bit more? Talk a little bit about that.

Yeah. I think play is so undervalued and is just. Yeah. The core part of my being is just to play and mess with stuff, sometimes to the point of breaking them. Like I'm very comfortable. Things will be broken. One thing comes to mind is like also just in, in drawing class in undergrad and I would, you know, you're working with charcoal on paper, everything's black and white, including your hands and everything. You're breathing just charcoal everywhere. And I would just overdo it. Like I just go to the point where basically I have a black piece of paper at the end and I think you almost have to go to this point of destruction to go, okay, well that was too far. Like you have to Play the musical instrument way too loud to go, oh, okay, now I understand what softer is. Yeah, right. And so I think, yeah, play has to be, for me, a part of the process. And it's messy, and it's. It's the only way to create something new and to figure out who you are and to understand how something works. Like, I can't understand how something works until I take it apart and look at all the pieces, and I try a million different ways of doing. Well, what happens if I do that? Or what if I do this? Okay. Learning how to knit. And I'm a very beginning knitter. And I took one class, and they showed me how to knit and how to purl, and I went, okay, that's. Those are words. I don't know those words, but okay. I don't know how I did it, but okay. And you said that I'm knitting too tight, which is a very common thing. It's like you can't even move the sticks around. And then I started going, what happens if I knit one, purl one. Knit one, purl one. What does that look like? Oh, okay. Why did that do that? And then what happens if I, you know, knit a row and then purl a row and then knit around, purl, like, just play with. Like. It's just this constant asking of questions. What if this. And I think that's what I'm trying to do with scape schools. Like, what if I just disrupt this whole education thing altogether and we just throw something different out there? So I think play. Play also doesn't have a lot of parameters around it. Like, there's no expectation of a result. There's no expectation of. Really rules a lot. I mean, sometimes I think we put too many rules on the playground, but if we think about the playground at the local park, you know, as long as you're not hurting someone else, you can be a dragon. If you want to be a dragon, it doesn't matter. And then you can turn into a cow. Like, I don't know. It's whatever you want to try out. And so I think as adults, we judge that and don't give ourselves space to play. Like those painting classes, you know, where everybody makes the same painting. The wine and painting class. Yep. Always. Like, I don't understand that. There's no. There's no risk. There's no play, really. There's just an activity. And I don't know, I get a little bored, so I'd probably be the one in, like, well, yeah, okay. The tree's Supposed to be brown. But what if I just mess with these two colors and turn the painting sideways and put the tree all over the place, you know?

Yeah, I, I love that the world is mine to shape kind of mentality, you know, Like, I think that's a common thread I've noticed through our conversation and that, you know, like, you can do the easy thing and buy like the keyboard tray again and go back to that. Or I could use this scrap piece of wood. I could use some woodworking skills that I've learned over the time. I could then paint it to be, to look like a dragon or whatever. And now I have this custom cool thing that has a story that's a little bit more true to who I am. That's. That would be. My keyboard tray would have a dragon on it, you know, but, you know, yeah, it'd be totally fun and like, you know, so I'm going to share this thing. Like what? This is my favorite time of year, right? Recording this in October because we put up our Halloween decorations, right? And it's very modest. My favorite thing the last like seven years I've been with my wife is we have this like thing we hang on our door that's like a witchy cat. It's a cat with like a witch hat on it, right? And it has like a glitter collar. And then when Thanksgiving hat. So when Halloween's over, we put up Thanksgiving decorations, which is basically take down most of the Halloweens, but we leave that cat up and we've created this colored paper like Thanksgiving hat that we put on the top of that cat, right? And it makes me so happy. And it's silly and there's no purpose to it. I'm sure all our neighbors are like, these 40 year olds are super childish. But like. And then after Thanksgiving, Christmas comes up, we have a Santa hat and beard that we put on that cat. And it's my favorite thing. You know, it's so dumb, but it's playful, it's silly. Like we both like, every time I walk in my apartment, I'm like, oh, this is really hilarious, you know, but that's, that's the beauty of playing and creativity, I think. You know, just to kind of try to land this in our conversation, you.

End up somewhere you didn't know you were gonna go to. Yeah, right. Like you probably bought the cat thinking like, oh, this is funny or silly or we like it, whatever. You hang it up and then you've got it there. And now you suddenly have a thing where it's like, well, I don't want to take the cat down, but it's the next holiday that we're celebrating. How can I customize? Right. And so you allow yourself that silliness and to be silly, and then you have this great, like, connection to your wife and also, you know, joy for you every time you see this ridiculous thing. Yeah, Yeah. I think we need to laugh at ourselves a lot more and just be silly. Everybody's, I don't know, trying to be real serious and look like an adult. I feel like I just want to look more like a kid. Like, you know, crazy socks and all. Just whatever. Whatever's gonna bring me joy in that day and maybe make somebody else laugh, then it's worth it. It's worth the play.

Totally. And again, it's like that question, what if, you know, just how long can we take a stupid cat thing? Right? What. What if we did a Valentine's Day one and we just tried to keep it year round, you know, like, no purpose, but. Okay, enough on that damn cat. So I'm curious if you were to get started in a new maker space, right? So we've covered knitting, sewing, garment making, potentially shoemaking, woodworking, graphic novel making, drawing. So, like, if you're. When you're going into a new space, like, do you have, like, two or three habits for a beginner in any new space? Are best practices or something of that nature that you would recommend or that you do as you're thinking about that for yourself?

Are you talking about in making the space as a creative act? Are you talking about, like, how do I start making a studio space?

Or it's more of, like, I want to learn how to make fishing rods, or I want to learn how to bake the best chocolate chip cookie, or I want to learn how to. Like, so you're getting into, like, maybe a new field is another way to freeze it. Like, do you have, like, okay, I got to do this. I got to do this. I got to do this just to get. Kind of get in the space?

Yeah, Well, I think there's some basics. I mean, definitely. You got to find the people. You have to find the mentor who's going to teach you this thing. Is it going to be like, what's your format? Do I want to learn this solo? And I don't really want to talk about it with anybody, so I'm going to just go onto YouTube and learn the skills of the thing. Do I want to explore the why of this thing? Like, why is knitting interesting to me? Suddenly, what Is it about that? So maybe I want to read some books about the history of knitting. And so there's some research and more thinking kind of things. And then there's just like the tools, right? So what are the tools that I'm going to need to do this activity? Do I. Am I so passionate about this activity that I need to invest in the top of the line tools? Probably shouldn't bother doing that. But you know, maybe there is some reason, justification. It's, it's an adjacent skill to something you already have and it's something you're trying to build out for a greater purpose than maybe investing in really nice tools for that thing. But is there a beginner set? What would they recommend? And that's where the mentor comes in. You know, what, what are some beginner tools? What makes it easier right now? And then I also find that telling people is a big thing. So telling other people what I'm interested in and what I'm thinking about helps me understand a little more why I'm interested. Because they'll say things and then I can bounce off of it or they have connections to that topic that I hadn't thought about. And it also, if it's like people in your household or people in the shared space where you're going to be working and doing this activity, I think it's important to give them a heads up. Like, hey, I'm really getting into canning. And so there's going to be a pot with like apples brewing because we're going to be making applesauce for the next, you know, eight weeks and got the peeler and you know, like, these are the tools I need to assemble and how much space and time and the whole house is going to smell like applesauce for the next eight weeks. Are you going to be okay with that? Or do I need to go to like a, you know, neighbor's house or a kitchen, a commercial kitchen? Do I need to take a class and just do it there? And so I think having those conversations before you even start is helpful because then, you know, okay, like, it's totally cool. They're gonna support me. And you know, I also, like, with my wife, I, you know, I'll say, like, yeah, and if you want to bring me some chocolate and tea in the middle of my work time, like you have, you can totally interrupt me. Bring the fuel. And I'm totally happy with it. So having that conversation with the people that potentially your new activity is going to impact, because I can't think of a activity where you're making something that isn't going to have it impact, even if it's just on the screen, you're going to be sitting, staring at your screen for long periods of time. And so that probably requires a conversation.

Yeah.

You know, with people around you, so.

Right on. That sounds like a. A well lived, hard earned, lived experience.

Yeah. I mean, I've definitely had moments of like, you know, my wife just going like I need to be able to get through here or you know, I've been lucky that for a while now I've had my own space that, you know, this is my own studio space that I'm in and so I can, you know, leave it a total disaster and it's not going to impact anybody else. Having that space is super valuable. Like carving out. I've done, you know, little spot in the garage, a little spot, you know, in the corner. Just some place where I can leave stuff a mess and come back to it. Because that's a key part of my process is only disruption by me, so that I'm aware of kind of where I left off.

Yeah.

So, yeah, definitely have learned how to, how to manage that. But you know, if it's a small thing, if it's like knitting, right. You have a little basket with your stuff and it can be in your bag or whatever and that's probably not going to impact people too much. But if it's, you know, woodworking, you're going to have sawdust everywhere. So it's a conversation to have. Yeah.

Or a half finished table in the living room for forever. Yeah, totally. Okay, so I want to wrap up with 2 qu. 2 more questions. Right. So I know we're a little bit looking at time, but we're good. Is there a belief or mindset that you hold that others don't? When you come to like the philosophy or like I said, mindset or belief on creating things.

I think making things is essential. I think it's something we naturally do. If you look at little kids, they make stuff all the time. Sometimes it's just a mess. Yeah. But I just think that it's. For me, it's just such a core part of who I am. It's a whole language that I'm completely invested in. In I think. I don't know, I can't imagine my life without it. So it's really hard to get at what is the fundamental belief there other than just it has to exist. I think it's just. It is. I'm looking outside right now out my window. And we, My son and I found this Adirondack chair that had a couple broken parts on it. And we decided that that was going to be our little project. And so we started yesterday sanding all the old paint off and taking it apart. And so that's laying in pieces. We have a play structure that we're refinishing. Somebody is kind of a hand me down play structure that he's really excited about making it into almost a pirate ship kind of look. And so we're working on that. There's gardening projects, and, you know, I think our life is full of projects. And I. Maybe the. Maybe the belief there is that unfinished things around are okay, and they. They just have this for me, this simmering potential everywhere. So what is the thing? I'm just going to keep, Keep feeding, to keep, keep watering this tree. And if you neglect a project for too long, then it becomes hard to get back to it. So it's this little bit of a fun game of running around and doing a little bit of this and a little bit of that and a little of this, and then a lot of this one thing that I'm super into, and then, oh, my gosh, everything else falling apart. I better go run into those things. So. I don't know. I don't. I don't have a pithy phrase for you. I think it's just a way of. It's probably just a way of living for me.

I think that's the unconventional belief that. That making is a way of life. It is. You know, it's something that I often like trying to see themes throughout the whole podcast of the meaningful revolution. You know, the act of creating is one of the things where people do find a lot of fulfillment, a lot of joy, a lot of that meaning in their life. Right. So whether that's a relationship you're creating or, you know, a movement of changing the schoolscape, you know.

Well, I think it's also. There's something about making something physical that either you can hold or you can point to or you can see that gets at something that is core curiosity for you. Right. To say I made this thing is a pretty amazing statement.

Yes. And it's a universal experience humans have had over eons of time. I think it's. It's hardwired into us, I believe, you.

Know, yeah, somebody said, you know, look at food. Like, we need food for nutrition, nourishment, energy to keep going. But that doesn't explain what we do with food. I mean, this, like, dance, this ceremony, this Ritual, the recipes and the mixing and all this stuff. Like, we don't actually need any of that for just physical nourishment, but we do this whole thing, right? And it's the same kind of thing. Like, I don't have to have a keyboard tray that I handmade, but there's something about that. Like I'm gonna sit here every day, right? It's. I don't know. Yeah, yeah.

Right on. Okay, so final question for you, and I love asking this question, it's what habits do you have? Like one or two that you. That keep you on purpose every day, every week or every like month?

I'm trying to think of things that I haven't already mentioned we can do a comment? No, I think a lot of the, you know, the routines, the putting, the one, one important thing to do that day. I have a pretty heavy practice of reaching out to people, often trying to get, you know, a few text messages or calls or seeing people every day, which is a lot for an introvert, but it feeds me a lot, I think. Also having reminders around. Like, I always have a lot of stuff on the walls, so you can't see all these things, but there's a board over here that's sort of a mix of long term goals, what the point of my company is, why I'm building it. Just these core statements, a list of what do I want in my life. So doing this reflective practice I do very often, I'm always asking myself these big questions so that I'm checking in. And then I don't just like file them away in some notebook in a drawer. Like they're up so that I'm looking. If I'm feeling doubtful, I'm looking over like, oh, I'm reaching like 9 out of 10 things on the what I want list, right? And then in front of me, I have this card I made. I call it my oh, shit card card. And it's right in front of me always for when the shit hits the fan. And it's like, do these things, you know, like, get moving. There's no excuses. Take a deep breath. Go make something. Making is on it. Like make a piece of origami, Play a song on the piano. Watch a YouTube video about making something. Just kind of lose yourself in learning something else. Shrink the problem. So I change my perspective and then think about how I can help somebody else for a few minutes and not think about myself. So I have that in front of me. There's a board over here. It's so hard to Point in the camera, this skinny one over there that has a list of my greatest fears in what I'm doing. And then I put over the top of it what I can say instead. So it just says fears. But then like, okay, I'm afraid I'll totally fail. Okay, you're going to be successful. Like, whatever the counter is that I need, it's there.

I love that.

There's also a letter that a parent wrote me many years ago when I was teaching her son that was just this profound thank you letter of my impact. So if I question my impact, I just go there and read it. And then the rest are project boards of things that I'm working on. I have a. Over on this side, I have a board called the parking lot. I always use that in the classroom. The random questions that people ask. And it's like, well, we're not going to answer that right now. We'll put that over there for later. My brain does that often. When you're interested in a lot of things, you have too many ideas to possibly do in your life. So I just stick them over there and then I feel like they're there and if I need them, I can get them, but it's not time for them right now. So, yeah, I think like, filling. Building your space is a key part for me of helping to stay focused on what I'm doing. Like that, that one post, it goes right here on my computer so that it's the thing I'm staring at when I sit down.

Right on. Well, thanks for giving us a tour of your studio. But I, I think another way to, to phrase it, especially for the folks that are listening to this is and can't see the pointing. It's all about creating. Like again, making reminders in your environment to cue you when you know you're going to get caught up. Which I think is a really like super Jedi mind trick thing that you have that list of fears that you then have like posted notes over of like. No, like this is what I say when this pops in my head to kind of when you can notice it. You have the resource or you're like, oh, I'm actually thinking that right now. I have the reminder of what I need to say. Like, let's get into it. Or like this is the procedure when I feel really stressed out. And as you said, shit hit the fan. You have your oh, shit card, which I love. So build your environments. Keep creating. You know, creating things and physical things is a way of life. It's a way of Living, it's a way of filling or feeling meaning in your life. So, Dara, if people want to follow up with you, what's the best way to. Maybe there's like your social media account to see when Scape School comes up, if people are interested. What would that be?

Absolutely, yeah. The best place would be on Instagram. My handle is art tech Teach.

Cool. I'll put that in the show notes.

You can find me there. And the second Skate school is live. It was be, you know, announced there as well. But you can also find out about, you know, my hiking and playing with a five year old and all kinds of things like that. So that's the best place to connect with all my curiosities.

Right on. It's pretty fantastic. As someone that follows that account myself. So, Dara, thank you so much. Please follow them at on Instagram. Like they said, really super grateful that you're here. I thought this was a really great conversation. I really am excited to get this out to folks, but thank you so much. Hope to have you back on the show here when Scape School is live.

Thank you, Sean. This was a blast.

Two things that people have in common when they find their meaning, their fulfillment, their joy in life is that they're creating things and they're building community. And I loved that Dara touched on that during their talk today on the podcast. So some of the big takeaways again, I absolutely love the murky metal idea and to have that as a call to double down, to maybe switch gears a little bit and really see the project through. Because as a software developer, I don't know how many times in the middle of a software project, you know, things go sideways and things can really drag on and it can be demoralizing. It can really, you know, have you burn out. What's going on. You get so focused on trying to make something work and it's not working and you start to neglect your relationships and your health. And so it is such an important thing to be aware of. There is this murky middle when you're trying to figure stuff out and you want that feeling of almost being stuck and not knowing how's this gonna work out? Because that's usually where there's some magic for you coming up. So. And I also love that, that creating is a way of life. It's a way of being. It's part of our identity. And I think as we're talking in the Meaningful Revolution, more about how do we design a life that we want, that we should be listening for those ideas with the the guests that we're listening. So you know, how do I want to live? And in Dara's case, they want to be constantly creative, constantly curious and learning new things, which at a very core values level, something that I am also super into. So any case, be sure to check out some of the previous episodes. I know this is the beginning of season four of the Meaningful Revolution podcast. I'm very proud of the work we've been doing and how we've been figuring stuff out. I hope you enjoyed it. If you've been with us on the journey and if you are just joining us for the first time, this is a really amazing way to get started. So as we go forward, make sure please do me a favor and share this with 3 of your friends who you think might need a little bit of inspiration, might need a little bit of that contagious passion that can really help us focus on building and designing the life that we want and not living a life that's been designed for us. With that said, we'll see you in the next episode. And Sean Butter, saying goodbye.