Push Your Excellence With Inner Work, with Nathan Smith | Meaningful Revolution Podcast S5E10
Nathan Smith, a coach and inner-work practitioner, discusses how deep self-discovery moves beyond surface knowledge. He shares how his brother's death at 16 and a misaligned career in pharmaceuticals led him to practices like yoga and emotional literacy. Smith introduces a three-step clarity framework and the question "What does the situation demand?" to navigate decisions and leadership.
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What would you call your personal, meaningful revolution?
Yes. And we were talking before the show a little bit and. And I love the name of your podcast, the Meaningful, you know, like revolution. Because for me, what. What's meaningful is the inner revolution. And the inner revolution, in my view, in my mind, is really all about how can I deeply understand myself in. And not just in superficial ways, but like really at my depths and really pull back all the layers and really start to understand all the operations. Where is everything coming from? Like, what is all this stuff that I'm reacting to? Because one of the things that I've found is that, you know, the more we, the more we take action from a place of, let's say, a lack of clarity or I like to call conflict is conflict is action taken from a place of conflict is only going to create more conflict. And I'm sure everyone listening can identify with some example in their life when they were confused or they knew something they were doing was coming from a place of contradiction or confusion. And after they did it, they're like, oh, I'm even more confused now than I was before. And so for me, it's really been this long journey of understanding myself better and understanding what, what's driving me, what's moving me, and how can I take action from a place that is deeply aligned instead of from a place of, you know, who knows what, from my conditioning, from my biases, from all that kind of stuff. So that's been my journey and that's what I continue to work on because it's a lifelong journey.
Definitely. I know having done a lot of work myself on trying to self discover one of the things you get, you'll spend your whole life doing? I firmly believe so, yeah. I'm curious though, could you maybe share a story about maybe when you operated from that sense of conflict, took an action and ended up more confused and maybe how did you get onto the path of self discovery?
Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. And I don't know how far you want me back to go, but I'm gonna go this far back. Okay. And not a lot of people know my story, but, you know, when I was, when I was 16 is when I had one of the most defining moments in my life. And that was when, you know, I had. I've been out all night. It was a summer, summertime was August. And you know, 16 year olds like, like to just go out and have fun and not be home. And so I was out doing the stuff that I was doing and I Came home. It was a weeknight, and I came home, you know, late at night, 9 o', clock, and you know, there's cars and all kinds of people in the driveway. And, you know, just that sinking feeling kind of hit my gut, you know, you know, when something's wrong, when something's off. And so I slowly just pulled up the driveway and I got out of the car. My dad was standing right outside the car. And I get out and he just like steps right up to me and he says, you know, your brother was in a car accident, he didn't make it. And just my whole nervous system shut down. I felt like everything just shut down. I just went numb. And, you know, and that was obviously a really impactful moment because it defined a lot of how I moved forward for many years in terms of, you know, being shut down, being stoic, not letting myself really dig into those emotions. I have to be the strong one. I have to pretend everything's okay. And so I learned really early on to put on a mask, right? To just put on this face. And I kind of led from one step to the next. And because I was already not really being who I was, it's okay, well, I have to be this person, and that leads to the next. Okay, well, I have to be this person. I have to be this person. And, you know, I just ended up, again, it's not all bad because our lives are exactly what they're supposed to be. But, you know, I ended up getting into a career that, you know, I did it just because I needed something to do. It wasn't really what I wanted to do. And so, you know, I found myself many years later, in my early 30s. I was like, I don't want to be doing this. Like, I want to be helping people. You know, I was in the corporate world in pharmaceuticals. I'm like, I don't want to be doing this because I just kept taking these actions that weren't aligned. And I was learning a lot. You know, I had started practicing yoga when I was about 28. And that's when I really started to open up my world. I really started to, you know, look more deeply at myself, look more deeply at that self discovery journey that we talked about. You know, I got into some other healing work too. And that really helped me sort of crack open a little bit, Started men's work. That was another huge part of my journey. And so it was just like one thing led to the next event, next, and I started to learn these different practices and getting around these certain People that would really help me crack open and really forced me to look at myself. And so it's sort of all these different experiences that led me up to this. And it's just every change that I've had in my life, and some are bigger, some are smaller. The last two years has been just an incredibly huge shift for me because I just completely turned my life upside down and. And it really forced me to go inward for. For a long time. For a good year, I was just looking inward at myself and, you know, looking at my patterns and, oh, my God, how did I end up here? And, like, what are the actions that I took? And just, you know, all these things I'm sure your audience can resonate with. And so I kind of just went into the cave and I'm like, I got to figure this out. I got to look at myself. And that was really impactful. And that's where a lot of what I'm doing now, the work that I teach now and coach people through now, came from just what I've done the last two years.
Right. Yeah. That phrase, how did I get here? I think is one of the driving questions. And in the meaningful revolution space that, you know, I ask people or, you know, I think that's the pivotal moment. You know, I remember being two years into my first career as a software engineer working for Walmart Corporate, and it was a great learning experience. It wasn't the big tech company I was hoping, like, I'd get into after college, but, like, it was. I did the responsible things. I had student loans and all that. But you get to a point where for me, it was overwhelm and stress, and I'm like, there's gotta be a better way to live than to be constantly walking on eggshells, constantly on edge, constantly exhausted. Like, there's a better way, you know, and that. That's what led me to High performance and High Performance Academy.
Yeah.
And out of it. So, like, yeah, that. That phrase is one thing that stuck out and to, like, thanks for. For sharing that story. Like, it also, I think mentioned, like, men's group. Men's, like, work.
Men's work. Yeah.
And grief and how people deal with grief is such a powerful. Yeah, it's a powerful emotion that manifests in really weird ways for everyone in a unique way. And like, to hear that grief kind of impacting you and echoing until you're like, oh, I gotta work on this. It's really powerful. So thanks for sharing that.
Yeah, no, my pleasure. And you're absolutely right. It's you know, it's our ability to work with our emotions and what's coming up is so important. And I think people just, in my experience, often don't give it enough. Enough time and enough focus. I mean, I did it because I didn't have a choice. You know, I just kind of got to this point. I'm like, I got to do something, you know, because again, that question you said, how did I get here? And I got to do something. And that was, you know, we all had these moments that force us into, you know, a new way of exploring. Right? Because, like, we have to get creative. We have to find some way forward. And again, like, you know, I. I ended up into this, and I didn't go into this yet, but I ended up as a coach quite by accident. I was working for a small business, and I was trying to learn marketing because I was never a marketer. So I went to this event, and Brendan was just a guest speaker. It wasn't even his event. And I'm like, all right, I'm going to go check this out. And I'm like, I really like this guy. He's got great energy. So I ended up going to. To one of his events the fall, like, six months later. And that's when he said, hey, you can become certified in this coaching. And I was like, oh, my God, like, yeah, I'd love to. It was like a full body. Yes. Right. And that's one of those things that I think, you know, the more that we understand our emotions, the more and the more clarity that we can find, the more of that, like, the more we, like, get away all the clutter, then we're available to hear those full body. Yes. Right. Whenever they come in. But when we've got all this confusion and all this, like, contradiction, it's really hard to be able to hear that stuff. And so working with people to help them really sort through their emotions, you know, I would call it emotional literacy and really being able to understand, like, what's going on here, like, what's the information that these emotions are trying to tell me or teach me? What is the wisdom within this? Because oftentimes we, you know, suppress them. Right. We just push them away or we escape them. Right. Let me find some form of escape. And we never find the wisdom. We never connect with the wisdom. And again, we end up repeating patterns because we haven't learned the lesson yet.
Absolutely. So I'm thinking about emotional literacy and that full body. Yes. Experience. Right. So the first question I had is, how do you know a authentic full body? Yes. Versus a cluttered full body? Yes. So like, like my. The example that comes to mind that's imperfect is like, sure, should I eat this whole basket of cookies? And the whole body goes, yes, for that moment. And then you do it, and then you feel bad. Right. So you don't want to follow that type of emotional truth, but knowing that a situation is right for you, a person is right for you, or not? Like, how do you, I guess, know the difference? Or how did you figure out the difference? Or did you even. Was that even a problem for you? Just already, like, accepted that, that feeling?
Well, no, that's a great question because it can be a hard thing to do. And, and how do we understand the difference between, you know, just. Are we just projecting our desire in terms of what we want? Like the full bag of cookies? Yeah. So what's the difference between a projected desire and actually, like, no, like, this is a yes. And, you know, I'll be honest, there's no easy answer to that question. But what I would say is that, you know, we all have that. That feeling. We all have that voice that knows if there's fear. We all have the voice of fear. We all have that voice of doubt. And if that voice of fear or doubt is creeping in, then it's obvious, Right. It's obviously not a full body. Yes. And part of it has to be, are we present enough with ourselves in this moment and are we clear enough for, let's say, that channel to be clear for that. Yes. To come through? And like, for example, when. When the opportunity came up for me, there was a, you know, it's not that there wasn't like, oh, like, this costs a lot of money. Right. Like, there's an investment here. But that didn't matter. Right. So it's not that necessarily, you know, you don't think critically about, oh, is this a smart thing or not? And you don't have to think through the logistics of something. But that's afterwards, right?
Right.
That's after. The thing that comes first is just that feeling. It just shoots through you. Right. It's almost like it's instantaneous. Right. That's how, you know, because for me, it was instantaneous. I just knew this is it. It's if your no comes after, right? If the no comes after. Because now your mind is engaged, right. And as soon as your mind is engaged, right now you're operating on another system, let's say. Right. And that's where the fear, the doubt, uncertainty, that's where that can come in.
Definitely. Oh, I love that. It's reminding me of some work I did. I took a course years ago from Evan Pagan where he talked about essentially it was like how the mind works. He talked about different currencies that we operate in, you know, based on a model that's not really great for the brain anymore. It's been disproven. But I like the idea that like we have like an emotional currency, we have an intellectual currency and like a physical currency and they all have different interests and things that they shy away from. So like.
Well, I would say they all have different wisdom, right?
Yes.
Yeah, they'll have different wisdom and if we can. And that's why I often tell people we have to create space in our lives. We have to create spaciousness so that we can have the quietness to be able to hear what that wisdom is. And part of what I would call intuition is how all those systems work together, the emotions and the mind and you know, our physical body. How do all of these things and our senses, the things that we're picking up consciously and unconsciously, how do all those work together to arrive at a particular answer?
Right, yeah, definitely. That's basically where I was going with that. So I guess the next best question I have is how do you develop that muscle of trusting that intuition which is that, that feeling getting your, your mind on board, like, you know, the fear, like, hey, I'm going to move cross country and you know, move in with a old college roommate, you know, and just see how where life takes me, like this feels right in the moment. I'm really like excited and then freaked out. Like, did I just blow up my life? This is actually like, that's how I got out to California is a buddy say, hey, sleep on my couch for as long as you need to get settled and let's make this happen.
Yeah.
So how do you address the fears that come up or, you know, either like physically we're like, I'm going to ruin myself financially or like, I don't know if I can do it. So it's like a self worth thing. Like how do you think through that with somebody?
Yeah, you know, it's part of it can be starting to separate out the different pieces, you know, in terms of, okay, how does that feel physically in your body? What are the thoughts that come up, what are the emotions? And you can start to work through, you know, each of these different, let's say systems, right? These different intelligences and you can break them down you know, piece by piece and start to understand them. But really what I would say is so much of this is about understanding relationship. And when I say relationship, what I mean is you have to understand your relationship to, you know, to other people. You have to understand your relationship to things. You have to understand your relationship to the ideas and beliefs that you might be holding on to. And so what I help people do is really start to look more deeply at those relationships and what comes up for them. And, you know, and the big one, as we said, is, you know, we. We tend to make most of our decisions, if not all of them emotionally, and then we justify them rationally after the fact. Right. So. So the big piece is really helping people, like I said before, gather the wisdom from that, from the emotion that emotional literacy, and really understand, you know, what is this trying to tell you? Right. And people aren't going to probably like this answer, but one of my kind of mentors, his secret to life was he said, I don't mind what happens. And that's a. That's a big one. That's a big one. You know, if. Because a lot of this is going to depend on what a person, how a person wants to live their life and what they want to believe. Like, for me, I believe that all these things that happen, everything that happens is an opportunity for me to discover more about myself. Right. And if I approach life that way, then, you know, yes, I want to think, you know, intelligently through my decisions and my choices and so forth. But, you know, if I really believe that I'm going to learn from everything, right. Then what I'm going to do is I'm going to, you know, the goal is to try and make what I would call, you know, it's. It's being integrally intelligent. Right. Integrally intelligent. So. And all that means is, you know, can I. Can I take intelligent action that is based off of, again, you know, integrating all the different parts and aspects of my life. Right. A lot of us make decisions based on one component. Right. Or, you know, maybe a couple. But we have to look at the totality of our life and our situation. And if it's helpful for the audience, like, here's one of my favorite questions, and I'll tell you why in a second, is what does this situation demand?
I love that.
What does the situation demand? And what you'll notice is nowhere in that sentence do you see the word I. Right. It's not what's. Or me. It's not what's demanded of me. It's not what do I need to do? Because that puts the focus too much on myself. And when I put the focus too much on me, that's when fear comes in. And when fear comes in, that's when the, you know, the vision that maybe is way out here starts to like, go like this. And I can't see anymore. Right. And so I'm no longer using, you know, that intelligent action because I'm not really looking. I can only see one small sliver. So if I ask that question, it's a wonderful question just to take you out of it and get another perspective on the situation. Because as, you know, as being a high performance coach, so much of what clients struggle with is, you know, fear. They won't take action because they're just afraid and it slows them down or stops them completely. They won't even chase their dreams. Right. They won't chase what's most important to them.
Yeah.
And so, so that's a key one that we have to start to, to unwind is to really start to understand, you know, what's at the root of that fear. And again, that's going to come back to really looking at your relationships in your relationship to again, yourself, people, things, ideas. And you know, it's a step by step process. And you know, and it can be scary as, you know, you've done a lot of, a lot of work. You know, I'm reminded of this one time, there's a guy who is, he came to me and he was like, wanted to do men's work. And he was all excited. He's like, I want to do men's work. I want to do men's work. And it's just the level of almost excitement in his, in his being. I was like, I don't think you know what men's work is about because it's not easy. It's not, it's not something you're like, big smile on my face, like, I'm going to do men's work. It's like, oh crap, I got to do some men's work. So, so, you know, this is, it's, you know, you need courage to go into this kind of stuff. And so, and that's why I just, I love my clients because they have the courage to say yes to this process. Right? They have the courage to say yes to themselves, to try new things, to be scared out of their mind and to still take action anyway. It's just a blessing to be able to do this work.
I wholeheartedly agree. And there's nothing more magical, I think, in a coaching like the days where I'm happiest are when I do a coaching session and can help someone turn the light bulb on. Like, and it's literally like, I'm sure you've seen it, where they're like, oh, oh, okay, got it. You know.
Yes.
That's like, that's a good day. And one of my favorite things about coaching is helping develop those moments.
Yeah. So, I mean, let me, let me give you a simple, you know, three step formula that's a really cool, you know, powerful formula for clarity. So when, first of all, when you're seeking clarity and you're like, ah, like I don't really know what to do and you know, I don't know what direction to go in. Again, give yourself space, Get a quiet space. Do your best to kind of clear out anything that might be extraneous or anything that might be creating like additional stress, right? So just put yourself, set up your environment, right, for clarity to come in. So that's number one. And then as part of the three step process, as you ask yourself, first and foremost is you can start to look at, is it time for this yet? Is it time for me to get clarity on this? Because oftentimes we're just being impatient, right? And it's, we just have to wait like what we might be in a time. Like I was for, you know, a couple years ago. It was, it was a period of gestation, right? It was a period I just had to go inward and I had to, you know, kind of sit in my stuff for a while, right? It wasn't, it wasn't a time to get clarity on what, what am I here to do or anything like that. So do a check in with yourself. Like, is it time or do I need a little more patience here? That's number one. Number two is, am I trying to get clarity in the right area? Because oftentimes we will intentionally look for clarity in one space because we're actually maybe avoiding another one and say, oh, let me come over here and get clarity, right? So again, be honest with yourself about, okay, is this actually where I need clarity or is there somewhere else that actually needs it first? Right? Is there a higher priority here? Is there, is there something that I'm avoiding? Right? That's number two. And then number three, you can check in. And this happens so often. Like, I love when I can kind of catch clients out in this is, is, you know, they'll, they'll tell me, oh, like I Don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. And you know, and my style varies a little bit. Oftentimes I'll just get pretty firm with them and I'll say, you know, bullshit, like you know exactly what to do and you don't like the answer. And they're just like, oh, you know, it's like sunk by battleship, you know, so check in with yourself and just say, you know, what do I actually already have the answer, but I just don't like it and so I'm looking for something else. So once those things can be established, that's going to set you up for just a much cleaner space with which for clarity to arise.
I love that. I love those questions. And I'm struck because I know in my coaching practice that second question is, am I trying to get clarity in the right area? A lot of times I find that if you're so focused on your career that your big unlock and breakthrough is actually taking care of your health or getting more sleep or being more present at home. Right. It's these adjacent areas where you're, you've lost some focus and lost some balance in it. So I love that question for that reason.
Yeah. And you know, if, if any of anyone is watching or listening, like if you're struggling in this area. Right. Just reach out to me. You know, we'll set up a 15 minute call. We can jump on and we can just power through. You know, there's a lot that can happen in 15 minutes, you know, when you're really focused. So that's what I'm here to do. I'm here to help.
Right on. Awesome. Yeah, we'll have a link in the show notes for the listeners for that 50 minute. So very, very generous of you for that.
My pleasure to offer. So.
So I'm, I'm curious then, as you've done work, inner work, are there a couple of like big pivot points where there was like you're struggling with some part of it and then you're like, oh, I, you got the clarity are the unlock of like, oh, I've been operating this way or I need to approach it in this way in order to move forward?
Yeah, absolutely. And I'll tell you, one of the biggest ones is really looking at is very fairly recent for me. And when I told you before, it's, this is an ever present journey we're always working through. And as one of my mentors says, truth happens moment to moment. And so this truly is like, okay, let me look Let me look, let me look. And, you know, I found that in this journey of coaching is, you know, I've really been trying to get clear, like, who are my people? Who do I love to work with? And, you know, and I really noticed it just hit me quite profoundly as I was kind of going through. And it was one of those things, too. And I think your audience will resonate with this is when we talked before about, well, how do you know if it's a full body? Yes, there's also that little part of you, and it might be really subtle, but there's a resistance. That's probably the best word I can use for it, is you just feel a resistance. And when that's there, it's like, oh, okay. Like, I know. I know something's off. I know something's not aligned. And so, you know, I was. I was pursuing this one direction for my coaching, you know, who I thought, you know, a client was that I wanted to work with. And I kind of. The whole time I knew, I'm like, ah, I don't know. And, you know, and this is when I talk about. So I just kind of give up. This example is that, you know, conflict leads to more conflict, right? And I was taking an action from a place that wasn't fully aligned with what was my most important value for my clients, right? For who I wanted to serve. And it was coming from a place of. Of limitation, right? It was, you know, when I started looking at it, like, wow, that's actually coming from a place of scarcity. And when I acknowledge. When I could look at that and just really acknowledge it and say, wow, like, who is it? You know, like, who. Who do I really want to work with? And it. And when I just allowed for that to. That question to germinate, and I didn't hold on to any expectation. I didn't hold on to, well, it's got to meet this, this and this. It was. Just let it open up, right? And it came into me and it was like, wow, you know, I absolutely love working with these types of people. And, you know, we were talking before the show, and, you know, I love working with leaders, and I love working with coaches, you know, because these are the people who are changing the world. These are the people who are impacting so many other people. And if I can help them deepen into their mastery, you know, their mastery of their own, you know, have their own inner revolution, like, have them really come to that deep inner clarity, and then from that place, be able to, you know, expand Their mastery take bigger action and then serve other people, help other people do the same again. These are, in a sense, transferable skills, right? Once we each kind of learn to do this for ourselves, we can teach others and we can role model that for others. And so it just came to me, I'm like, oh, my God. Like, these are the people I need to be serving. These are the people I love to serve and be around. And, you know, these are my. Like, you know, you think these people get it, right? Like, that's. That was it for me. And, you know, it was just. It's sometimes the, the clarity that comes in are things that seem obvious sometimes, and they're things that in hindsight, you're like, oh, my God, you know, like, I can't believe I didn't see that sooner. You know, and I'm sure you know your audience, I can't believe I didn't see that sooner. Probably everyone can resonate with that, but that's the power too, of removing those hindrances, right? Removing those blocks and just really letting yourself, just letting your ego go, right? Get the, get the ego aside and just be like, yeah, it's not about you and, you know, like, who you're here to service, who you're here to serve. And, you know, I was like, oh, my God. And I felt a little silly after. But, um, but that's actually a good thing, right? That's also how I know when I move through a block is there's this whatever, just this spontaneous joy that. That happens after. And I'll just share this quick story with you because it might be helpful for. For people too. And I'll give you the short version of the story is I was. I was on a vacation trip. I was away and I had to go get dinner. And you know, there was. It was kind of a remote place. So, you know, they didn't have Uber, or the Uber was going to take, you know, 30 minutes. I'm like, oh, 30 minutes. I'm like I can walk to the. It was only like a mile away. I'm like, I can walk there faster. So I start walking to the place to pick up the food. And I was. I just noticed. I was like, I was bitter. I was like, ah, like, stupid Uber. Like, why. Why aren't there more, you know, Uber cars around? And I was just kind of bitter about it because I, you know, I wanted to spend my time, you know, know, not walking around getting food and. And I just. Okay, so then on the way back, I had. I started to say to myself, okay, like, let me, let me just be grateful, you know, I'll be grateful. There are people, you know, in like, you know, Africa and like all these remote places, you have to walk incredibly far just for clean water. I'm like, you know, so get over it, man. You know, so I'm doing this sort of thing and you know, and if people watching you, if you're taking notes or anything, it's like, notice what we do is this is what we call like a spiritual bypass, which a lot of people are familiar with that term is, you know, I'm trying to use gratitude as sort of this up level as a way to avoid what I'm feeling. And, you know, I should be grateful for this. And you know, we tend to justify things, right? Like that one of the ways that we escape feeling what we don't want to feel, right, is what justify them or will sometimes we substitute for something else or, you know, we rationalize or, or we just go full on condemn, right? And we feel better just condemning something. So, you know, so I'm in this like spiritual bypass and I'm aware of it and I'm like, like, all right, so. So then I went back to being angry and then I was just. But then I was like, you know what? I'm like, it's okay, you're allowed to be angry. It is in my head I was just like, you're allowed to be angry, and gave myself permission with no judgment, just, you're allowed. And in that moment it transformed and I just spontaneously started laughing and all the anger was gone. And, you know, and it's really interesting, sort of the key message here, and this is what I help a lot of clients do, is can you let yourself be with what is. Can you let yourself be with what is in this moment without having to change it or move away from it? Can you just be with what it is? And when you can, that's when that spontaneous shift is possible, right? And so that was a really powerful lesson for me. And what I noticed, and what I think you'll all notice is we put so much effort into trying to make something other than it is. It's a lot of energy, it's a lot of effort right now. That doesn't mean that we don't. It doesn't mean that change isn't needed and that it's not important for change to happen, but we really have to look at the way that we're going about change. And, and that's a big part of the inner Revolution, too, is to look at the way you're doing it. Because if it feels effortful, if it feels, like, hard, right. Then that means there's a lot of resistance within you. And there's. Which also indicates there's a lot of conflict and contradiction within you. Right. And how many clients you know have you probably worked with, Sean, where you're just. You can feel that resistance that people have. Right. And if we want clarity, ultimately, if we want clarity, we have to get really honest with ourselves about what it is we really want and don't want. And we have to get really honest about, you know, like, what is. Like, what am I looking at? What is the situation here? And a lot of people don't want to do that. Yeah, they don't want. They don't want to be that honest.
You don't want to be that honest. Or. I've also found that sometimes I think we're all guilty of this, but we take the identity of the idea, like, oh, I need to be angry at this person, because, yeah, I'm. And it goes back to, I'm. I was wrong. I'm justified in this. I'm the crusader here for good, and all that other stuff.
Right.
The thing is, is, like, when you assume that identity, you're also implicitly assuming to hold on to that wedge in your brain. Right? That anger.
Yes.
That disappointment, that fear. And then you become, you know, it manifests.
So, yeah, you nailed it, man. That's it. It's that identity. It's when we lock into and feel like we have to, like, hold on to that. That I am. And you pointed out something really important that, you know, because I've done this in my life and, you know, this is something that I think we all want to be mindful of. And again, if you're a leader or a coach, it's something you want to be mindful of for the people that you're leading is. It's really easy to, you know, because we're living in more of a woke society now. Right. More people are aware of personal development and these different tools and so forth. And part of that that I've seen is that, you know, people are, you know, a positive way. They're more willing to take responsibility. Right. For themselves and for their actions. But what can happen. And again, I've been guilty of this, so I know is using responsibility as a vehicle for actually being a victim. Right. It's. Well, I'm going to take responsibility and I'm going to be the victim here. Right. And when we do that, it's actually a really tricky way of, of abdicating responsibility because as soon as you make yourself the victim, you're no longer responsible. So it's a really tricky one we have to watch out for. Like I said, I've done it, so I know.
I'm not innocent in that or I see myself in that situation. Yeah, I think that's such a great distinction and I idea of, yeah, like claiming responsibility but then claiming the victim to not be responsible. It's a really tricky mental jujitsu that happens.
Oh. I mean the ego is like. It's a ninja. Right. The way, the way it works and triangulates and it can get out of anything. So that's why we have to be careful. Right. And that's part of, part of this whole process is to, is you start to understand the way that you do those sorts of things. Right. It's to like go, go beyond even, you know, a lot of people might go one or two layers. There's so many more layers. Right. It's so much deeper. And you know, if you're willing to go there, it's, it's really powerful what you can transform and how it can make shifts in your life and how it actually impacts your relationships. Right. When you're willing to understand yourself at that depth. Right. Yeah, it's incredibly powerful.
Definitely. And going back to leadership too, like when you are able to check that or have power over that for yourself, that's what you get back to that first question is. Or one of the questions you asked, which is what is demanded of what is in demand for this time. Paraphrasing. You know, I'm trying to, like, I have a. So I'd love to hear if you have a story about having done the work. Was there a situation where that helped you step into leadership more strongly than maybe you would have before? And I could share a story too.
But yeah, you know, I would share. I mean there's various stories. I'll share one, I'll share one from, from men's group. So, you know, when we're in a men's group, it's not a, it's a, it's a peer led situation. Right. So no one's really in charge. And you know, depending on how a person is feeling any given night, like you, you may be in a tough space. And there's been many times when just because I've been doing it for so long, you know, like people trust me. Right. So I've built trust in the group. I show up every week. And so there are times when people say, hey, like, can you help me work through a process? And I gotta tell you, Sean, there's so many times when I'm like, ugh, I don't want to. Like, I'm like, I'm not there. And then, you know, I'll ask myself, all right, what does the situation demand? And I'll check in. And sometimes the answer's been no. Sometimes the answer is, actually, I need to take care of myself. And sometimes the answer is, you know, this isn't about you, like Nate, so step up and serve. That's what's needed right now. Right. And I'll step up and serve. So, you know, there are many ways this could show up. And again, using that question could show up, especially in terms of leadership. But, you know, I really think that if we're going to. If we're going to take this space, you know, we're going to take the time to get quiet, to find that space for ourselves, then when we ask that question, we will be really ready to hear the answer. But if you're asking that question from a place of fear already. Right. So I would just say caution, people, because it is a powerful question if you're willing to receive whatever the answer is. Because it kind of goes along with what we talked about before, is like, I don't mind what happens. So if that's true, okay. If I can get to that space, I'm not asking this question from a place of fear, then I'll be able to hear what it is I need to do.
Right on. Absolutely. Yeah, I think so. The story that came up for me while you were talking about this is I had a situation when I was working at Apple. So it's really smart people. A lot of really big egos because they're smart at Apple.
No.
Yeah. You would never think that. Right. And so I was working with this gentleman, and short of it is there was a miss. There was a series of miscommunications that led to him slamming open my door in my office and screaming like, this close in my face how terrible I was. And, like, that was really trying to get personal.
Yeah.
And an old version of me when I was young and scrappier, would have yelled right back in his face and probably would have gotten into a fistfight. And, like, I'm not a violent person. But, like, that invasion of space thing is one thing that I know.
Right.
Is a trigger.
Yeah.
And asking that question, what does this situation demand? And it's A cooler head. It's de. Escalation.
It's.
How do I shift this? Because I'll probably have to work with this person going forward. So, like, being able in that moment to feel that anger and be like, I'm justified in this. And there's a. There's a. There's a path.
Yeah.
And choosing not to go down the path of making this worse, but, you know, trying to save the relationship. I was able to, you know, get some other people involved and kind of cool it down and then work on.
Yep.
Getting back to being able to work. But that's the kind of. At least for me, like, that's a. A big example of why this inner work's so important and how it then translates into leadership, you know, because it take. Everyone can be a leader. I. I firmly believe. And so when you're able to channel that.
Yep.
In those moments authentically, then you have better outcomes, so.
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. You know, and it's interesting because you bring up a good point here, Sean, which is a lot of situations we might find ourselves in might be quite spontaneous. You know, there may not be moments in which we can. Oh, well, let me sit down and ask this question. Like someone. It's like, boom, someone's right in your face. Right. And, you know, I always think in moments like that, to your point, de escalation. Right. It's. It's always appropriate to excuse yourself and say, hey, I need to take a step back. You know, I'm not in a space right now where I can respond to this, you know, effectively or however you need to say it.
Yeah.
And give yourself that space. Because, you know, you mentioned when you were kind of doing the intro in the beginning, one of the, sort of. One of my key or foundational frameworks is that I want to act from a place of more wisdom, skill, and compassion. Right. And I think those really interrelate quite well. And if I think about. Okay, well, wisdom is. Is really how do I combine my knowledge, my self knowledge with my experience and my understanding. And the deeper part is like, how do I really combine what I know about myself? And this comes from one of the pillars I work with people is realization. And the realization pillar is really where we do that inner revolution work. Right. It's. It's that process of self discovery. And as you pointed out, well, I know myself. I know that normally, like, when you're in my face, like, I'm ready to go. So. So you have that wisdom. And so you know what you need to take care of Yourself, Right? Yeah, so. So coming from a place of wisdom is really important because once we come from a place of wisdom, very often then we can act with skillful means. Right?
That's so good.
And you know, someone who was not coming from a place of wisdom, right. Would have, you know, shoved a guy or screamed back or you know, done something destructive. Right. And then therefore non skillful. So if we can take space, find space, take the time to connect with our inner knowing, right. Our self knowledge, connect to a place of wisdom, we can act more skillfully. And within that action, it will also be compassionate. Right. Because someone who's acting from a place of wisdom can see that this other person is hurting. I can see this other person struggling. So it's not about retaliation, it's not about, you know, let me come after this person. Like they need compassion right now. Yeah, right. And sometimes, you know, sometimes compassion, just, just to be fair, might look like holding a hard boundary. You know, compassion isn't all, you know, bunnies and, and rainbows, you know, sometimes.
It'S saying, no, I can't go work through this process with you like that.
Yeah, absolutely. So if we can keep that in mind that we want to show up in those three ways, that can be really powerful.
I love that quick framework and those examples.
So.
I guess would that framework or the one we talked about before, the three questions, if you are a beginner in this inner revolution and it had come to the thing where like, okay, I know I need to do the work and I don't know what the work is or what the next steps are. Do you have like a two to three step starting process?
Yeah. You know, it's interesting, there's a great quote which people may be quite familiar with. I don't know if we originally said it might have been Ram Dass, I think, but he said you have to become a somebody before you can become a nobody. And you know, really what that means is, you know, many of us on the, let's say the latter half of our journey, you know, it's about letting the ego go. You know, it's not so much about, about me anymore. Right. But before we can do that, like, many of us have to actually get more established in who we are. We have to get more established in an identity first. And that's what will then allow us to have the wisdom to be able to take the path on becoming a nobody. And some people don't care about the path becoming nobody. I'll be honest. Some people just, I'm on I'm going to be somebody, somebody, somebody. I want to be the biggest somebody there is. And again, that's fine, too, right? Everyone's path is their own, and it's totally fine. So. But the reason I mentioned that, Sean, is because I really have to look at where somebody is first, and I need to see, do they need to be built up right now? Do they need to get more established in their somebodyness first? Or are they ready for that other part of the journey? And do they want that other part of the journey? Right. Because if they don't, again, what's going to happen is just a lot of resistance. So the first thing I would maybe have someone take a look at is just where are they in their journey? Right? Like, do I. Do I feel like I really need to get rooted more into my identity because that may be appropriate, and that may be what's necessary, right? And. Or maybe they'll find. No, you know what? Like, I've been doing this a while, or I'm really ready to. To let all that go, right? I'm really ready for maybe a simpler. A simpler path. So, number one is I would identify where are you in the journey? And then, to the best of your ability, what do you want? It's a very powerful question that I think people don't ask themselves enough because it's actually a really hard question. What do you want? And now here's a key distinction I would make with that is, once you've identified what you want, ask yourself, okay, so is this really what I want, or do I want to want it? Because a lot of people want to want something because they feel like they should, or I'm supposed to, and what happens then is they don't do the work. If you want to want something, you're in conflict because you don't really want it. So everything's gonna feel like a struggle. Everything's gonna feel hard, like an uphill battle. And again, really, if you can just be honest with yourself, right? The only way to see truth is, is to be brutally honest with yourself and look at the truth of what is it? So that would be. I think that would save people a lot of time, right? Just start there to the best of your ability. Can you get honest with yourself? What do I want? Really?
Yeah. And that's another. A reminder to the folks listening, too, that a really great reason to work with a coach is to have someone that's skilled in helping you be honest with yourself or see those blind spots or see those ugly spots that we all we all don't want to see or acknowledge about ourselves.
Yeah.
Because that's the toughest thing, where you might even have an inkling. But your brain is so tricky at being like, don't pay attention to that. Like, you're great. You doing fine. And then. Yeah, it shows up in weird ways. You're like, why did that happen? Why did I yell at the dog? Or whatever.
It's like, oh, right, right. And. And to hold you in that space. Right. To.
Yeah.
You know, to have somebody. Because again, as a coach or just an outside person, you know, we can hear the tonality. Right. We can hear, like, the way that somebody says something or the pacing with which they say it or how long it takes them to respond. Like, all these different subtle things that, you know, we. Because we can't see the water we're swimming in. Right. That's why I need coaches, because I can't see my own stuff. Is there's all these things, all these subtle things, and a coach can really draw that out of you and say, hmm, what do you think that was about? You know, and start to give some honest reflection. Like, I mean, my job, you know, I see my job is just like, I'm here to be a mirror of truth. That's it. I'm going to be a mirror of truth for you. It's not my job to tell you how to live your life, to tell you what to do, but I am here to reflect back to you what you need to see so that you can create the life you want for yourself, the one you really want, and try to save yourself from falling into all the pitfalls and all the traps and having to go directly to jail. Do not pass go. Can we avoid all those things? And again, it's not that there isn't wisdom in those things, too, but I think we've all experienced at some level if. If there's suffering that's not necessary, well, then let's see if we can move through it or not have to go through it.
You can learn the lesson by getting hit in the face with the snowball or seeing that there's a snowball fight on your path and avoiding it. That's not a great analogy, but I think it illustrates the point I'm trying to make. You can learn through observation, or you could learn through experience. And sometimes having a mentor or coach with a different perspective is a little bit less painful because you can be like, oh, that's gonna hurt if I step into that.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, we all need support on the journey. Right. Nobody does it alone. And you know, just having people who have been there, who have experienced life and in its vast array and again, people who have done the work, like it's, It's hard to help somebody. Right. If you haven't done the work yourself and if you don't understand the traps and if you don't understand the pitfalls. And I mean, again, I've seen my own stuff. Like, I see the way I'm like, oh my God. You know, and because I've been, I've been in those traps myself, so then I see them operating in other people. You know, there's a great, another great quote I love, which is if you spot it, you got it. Yeah. Right. So all the stuff that you see in other people, that's because it's in me. And I know I've, you know, I've had a lot of challenges and so I can spot them and it's like. And I've learned tools to help, you know, help people work through them. So.
Right. I love that. I guess last I. That's probably the perfect way to end. So I think maybe we'll call it there. So, Nathan, thank you so, so much for being on the podcast today. I really enjoyed our conversation. I think inner work is integral to anything you want to do out in the world. And now I'm thinking about my life and all those kind of pivot points. I could come up with a bajillion from the word. But it is super important. How can the good people follow up with you one last time?
Yeah. So, you know, you go to my website, it's just www.embodiedexcellence.com. we're also going to put a link down in the somewhere. There will be a link. Yeah. If you just want to connect for a 15 minute conversation. And the whole idea here is for you to recognize where do I have conflict in my life? Where is that inner confusion? Or where do I feel like I'm caught in contradiction? And if you want to work through that, you want some help, you just want a set of eyes that's experience working through this kind of stuff. I'd love to help you. So we'll put a link down there as well. And I do host just a regular webinar as well. And if that's something that your audience wants to go to, we'll make that link available as well.
Awesome. Yeah, we'll put it down in the show notes.
Wow.
What a powerful conversation. I always do this. I like take three Pages of notes and then remind the audience to take notes at the end instead of the beginning. I need to update my checklist here.
But they know by now they've learned.
I hope so. With that said.
Yeah.
Thanks again for coming on. It's a true pleasure. I'd love to have you on sometime again in the future if you're down for that.
Awesome. Sean, this has been great, great to see you again and connect with you. I love the work that you're doing. Let's keep this meaningful revolution going. And yeah, I'm happy to connect. So thank you for having me on.
Yeah, you're welcome. All right, with that said, we'll see you guys next week on the Meaningful Revolution. See you then. What is your meaningful Revolution?
Right.
On the podcast, we talk about people that have done a lot of work and getting clarity about what their mission is, what they find fulfillment in, what is helping them engage in their life more and in the hopes of inspiring you to do so for yourself. But how do you go about doing that? Right? Maybe you are new to personal development. Maybe you're new to wanting change in your life and you don't know how to get to that next step. Well, good news. I got a three day challenge for you that will help guide you through just that. It's the Meaningful Revolution challenge where we'll spend three days together, one hour each, where on day one, we'll talk about clearly defining your personal, meaningful revolution, which is your fulfilling transformation. It's your purposeful impact. It's that authentic movement that gets you up and excited out of bed every morning to go out and chase and create in the world. Because I believe if we have more people living into their personal, meaningful revolutions, that we will have a lot more people engaged in their lives, which helps us out in society, it helps us provide more for our families, it helps us feel better about our lives. And these are all things that we all strive for, right? I feel like we all strive for joy, growth, and impact in life. And a lot of that revolves. If you can achieve those three things, you have your personal, meaningful revolution. So I'd love for you to join us in this free three day challenge, which is live. And so like I said, on the first day, we'll go through clearly defining your personal, meaningful revolution. The second day, we'll talk about building your plan and the components of that so you can know your next steps and follow through and, you know, feel a little bit of momentum there. And then the third day, we'll talk about your commitment to that vision and habits, strategies, tactics to help make sure you follow through. So I love doing these challenges because one I get to know you guys more. You know, I get to understand, ask you questions. You know there's a place each day for some question and answers and for some one off coaching if you're struggling with something in particular. As a certified high performance coach, I am a coach first. I love coaching people. It's my bread and butter and it's not me telling you what to do but it's us co creating and figuring out a solution together to whatever is getting in your way. So love to do that for you. Join us in the Meaningful Revolution challenge by clicking on the link below wherever you're watching or listening to this podcast. So see you in the challenge guys. You got this. This is the year to step up that vision for your life, to really build into that vision and to to get some momentum going into this new year. So join us. See you there.
