The Power Of Being Curious With Kristin Ekkens | Meaningful Revolution Podcast

And when I started to think about what makes people feel like they can belong in an organization or a community or X whatever it might be, what makes people feel like they belong. And for me, it is I need to be a part of some kind of network that we're doing good and I need to be feeling like I'm providing meaning for me personally is on like a social. There's a social purpose behind it. There's a social impact that we're working together and collaborating and that there are people from all different walks of life figuring out how to do this together.

All right, before we get into today's episode of the Meaningful Revolution, I just wanted to take a quick moment to highlight our community because you guys are so fantastic. And I wanted to say that you can either leave a comment on Apple Podcasts or go to www.community.seanbutner.com to join our community to have your comment highlighted. Like, I'm so glad I checked or clicked on this. It's a down to earth yet powerful podcast, promotes much needed inspiration in our lives. From Cedar, Colorado, we love to highlight you guys here in the community. So please again leave a comment on Apple Podcasts if you enjoy this episode or any of the episodes. Community.seanbutner.com links below this episode so that you know. Hey everyone. Welcome to the Meaningful Revolution podcast. I am your host, Sean Butner and today we have a one of my good friends, Kristin Ekins, who's an award winning cultural strategist, solutions designer, master facilitator, and high performance coach, TEDx speaker and entrepreneur. That's a lot packed in the one sentence. Amazing. Her passion and area of expertise is helping individuals, teams and organizations drive culturally intelligent innovation. Kristin founded the expert Exponential Inclusion which has a mission to apply exponential inclusion and have massive positive impact in the world. Kristen, thank you so much for being here today. So great to see you.

Pleasure. My pleasure, Sean, thank you so much for having me.

Of course. Okay, so today we're talking about exponential inclusion. So could you tell us a little bit what exponential inclusion is and just a little bit about that whole thing?

Absolutely, absolutely. I'd love to. So I'm going to start off a little bit with a story that, you know, I found myself, you know, as an inclusion and diversity leader in a healthcare organization and really trying to disrupt what was there in a good way. I use that word in a way that some people are saying, no, disrupt, don't do it. And others will say, you know, if you disrupt pieces that aren't working or things that have been just processes, practices that have been done forever and we haven't tried something new. These are the things that, when I was in that organization, I was looking for the areas that we needed to disrupt so that we could breathe new life into it and have a more inclusive and equitable organization that people could feel like they belong. And so it really started in this space and when I started to think about what makes people feel like they can belong in an organization or, or a community or X, whatever it might be, what makes people feel like they belong. And for me it is, I need to be a part of some kind of network that we're doing good and I need to be feeling like I'm providing meaning for me personally is on like a social, there's a social purpose behind it, there's a social impact that we're working together and collaborating and, and that there are people from all different walks of life figuring out how to do this together. And so, you know, the story is more about when I was leading inclusion and diversity and creating these internal networks in the organization and seeing people burn out left and right, including myself, it was so challenging. And at the same time I realized, wait, there are supernodes in this organization, what I call supernodes. There are people that are game changers. They're mavericks, they're trailblazers. There's so many names for them. But people who are willing to be courageous and take a risk and really go above and beyond to say, how can I help and be kind to someone else and bring them in and help them be a part of this and at the same time have incredible performance on their roles and in their work. It was this aha moment for me when I thought, you know, what if we bring together supernodes with helping them have the tools that they need to help spread inclusion throughout an organization and layering it. So there's all levels of layering with exponential inclusion. But long story kind of short, what the goal is for exponential inclusion is to take these sparks throughout organizations, like ideas, people, whatever the sparks might be, and help to make it exponential, not linear. So when we try to do these things linearly, we end up with the same and it's activity driven. If we want impact, then we start looking at things that might be wild and outrageous ideas to start, but if we actually focus in on them and test them and experiment, we may say this is the most genius idea ever and it can spread throughout the organization and get many people involved. And my focus just happens to be around inclusion and Belonging. Because I think that is what makes the world tick. When we can understand that we are who we are because of others.

Wow. Yeah, that sounds amazing, right? It sounds really meaningful and fulfilling. Could you maybe explain why in particular, inclusion is really meaningful to you and how maybe you got start. So you got started, like scaling these programs in your organization, but there was there a moment before, or maybe you were struggling with it that like, set you off?

Yeah, I love that question. So I often got the question while I was leading inclusion and diversity. People would ask me in a way like, so what made you interested in this role? And it was that same question in various ways. And I was never shy from that question because for me, that's a chance to share my story, a chance to see how we are all connected. Also a chance to say we all have a diverse perspective. Just by the definition of being human, we bring our own backgrounds and experiences that we can shock each other once we learn each other, learn about each other's stories. So for me, it started when I was back in high school, actually, and I had grown up in the inner city. And for me, being white, blonde hair, blue eyes, in the place where I grew up, in the city I grew up, and in the region I grew up, there were a lot of people that looked like me. So for me, I didn't look like an outsider. And I'm using these terms specifically because of inclusion and diversity work. I didn't look like an outsider, but I felt like one. So living in the inner city, I learned things and saw things in a different way. And then I went into private school system, still living in the inner city, but going to high school in a place that people looked like me, but I just was not thinking the same way as them. And it just, I mean, for me, my own personal experience, that's all I can speak from. But I felt like a fish out of water. And that was one of my first experiences. Not understanding why, you know, parents wouldn't have their kids come to my house, why I was always going to other people's houses. You know, just understanding things in a different level. And then, long story short, I feel like I've said that twice now in this, but I, you know, this is where we're, you know, learning. For me, my journey has been these red threads throughout and these milestones in my life that when I went into college, I lived abroad, so I studied Spanish and I studied linguistics as a double major. And I lived in Spain and in Mexico and in Costa Rica, and I lived with host Families, and I started to understand the language and the culture. And that is, like, where my hunger just. Just. It was exponential for me in that moment. I just said, I have to be doing. I didn't know what it was that I'd be doing. You know, I had a liberal arts degree, and I'm thinking, what can I do with my Spanish major now? But I found that for me, teaching English as a second language, that's where. Where I started to focus my efforts and actually ended up getting my master's degree in that and working with refugees and immigrants and migrant workers and understanding their stories. I just. I was thriving in that space, learning from them. So. Yeah, I'll pause there.

Oh, yeah, great. No, this is. This is so super fascinating. And like, some. As you're explaining, I think, you know, I do a lot of work with introverts, introverted professionals, introverted business owners. And a lot of people, if you're listening, have the story of feeling like the fish out of water, feeling like, you know, you don't fit in, because at least with those folks, it's not the right. Same vibe, you know, in a lot of ways, and bringing up like, you know, I'm from the northwest suburbs of Chicago. I've lived in Indiana and Arkansas, and you see all sorts of folks just in this country and the socioeconomic differences that a lot of people are blind to. But you can, like, oh, like, we don't go to that part of town because it's dangerous. It's like, why? Like, is that true? You know.

I love, love, love that you bring this up, because this is when people talk about right now, diversity, inclusion, and it being buzzwords, really, and people not really understanding fully what it means, but because they've become buzzwords, then it's like, oh, yeah, diversity and inclusion. Oh, yeah, it's important. And it's like, actually, it's pivotal. It's like, so what it is for me, when I think about diversity, as I mentioned, we are all diverse. We're all part of that. So every single one of us owns being part of a diverse world. And then when we think about what diversity actually is, it's what makes each one of us who we are. And so, like you mentioned, socioeconomic status. It could be religion, it could be political views, it could be ethnic. It could be so many things. Our gender expression, gender identity. All these things make us who we are. And so that's why each one of us has a really rich story. If we're willing to look in deep and see what that is what our identity actually is and how it relates to other identities and other people. And that we're not uni dimensional in that way. We're multi dimensional where we're so many things wrapped up in one human. So that's where the diversity is. Yeah. And the inclusion part is when we actually start to. I'll give an example in organization when we start to see people for who they are and then not just see them, but actually invite people who don't necessarily get a chance to have their voice at the table. Or maybe they do have their voice at the table but their ideas are never selected because of our bias that gets in the way. And so we're intentionally figuring out how to include people, their voices, their ideas, their ways of thinking and doing and being into our ways of living. Does that make sense?

100% yeah. And I can't my experience in corporate America, you know, I was a business analyst for Walmart for a while on the tech side. So I came from a programming thing and you know one of my favorite games with another of the business analysts, this older gentleman, Jeff Hayes. We go to like trainings or whatever and be like who's the most quiet person, who's the most loud, you know, who is kind of domineering their group and the different group breaks out and just like that socio like curiosity. And I think that's what you're really talking about is that's curious about people that that there's so many different combinations of experience and everything. And so one that was a fun like game to play at work when you're kind of bored in one of those trainings. But more importantly when it came to facilitating meetings later with these, you know, all these stakeholders understanding the on the project, the people that were working on the field came from a different economic background, had a different like formal authority and power in the organization versus the people that were the business pads in the organization and being like how do we try to make everyone happy? Which is a fool's errand. But how do we at least get make everyone feel like they had their voice heard? It was such. And that's I would say and you could probably speak to this maybe not what people think of when it comes to inclusion, but this happens every day.

In every organization, every day to every person. I mean every person has some challenges they run into and they feel like oh my voice isn't being heard or I can't get my ideas across. There are though the next level then of some people this happens to more than others. This is where it comes in to start seeing. And this is where we get our divides. This is where there's a lot more tension points and people saying, like pointing at one group over another, whether it's ethnic groups, racial identities, you know, whatever it might be. But the fact is that especially, and I work on a global scale and this happens on a global scale, all countries have their own story. I will speak specifically about the US we were built on a structure that was not made by everyone or for everyone. And so just having that structure in place, we're going to have gaps because we haven't completely backing to the disrupting. We haven't disrupted that system enough. Yes, a new one that incorporates everyone's voices. Now we keep trying in different ways, but it is such a challenge. So this is actually one of the reasons why I've created exponential inclusion. I am trying to move mountains and I know there's no way that I can do this or want to do this alone. So for me, the exponential inclusion part comes by collaborating with people around the world in different functions, different levels within organizations and communities. It's a way for people to come together who are passionate about inclusion and belonging and understanding global leadership and how we function together, passionate about innovating and creating together, co creating solutions, passionate about moving humanity forward in a positive way. And these are all things for me that sit at the heart of really why I'm here. When I think about my purpose in life, it is truly to be. To be a light to others, to help spread that kindness when that may not be a popular thing to do. It's hard and at the same time to say to help other humans help people thrive. I mean, my goal is to help all people thrive. And that's not always easy either if I don't agree with someone. But my goal when I look at them and as a high performance coach, it's to see in them and say, how can I support you for who you are and what your purpose in life is? And specifically those who are trying to truly move us all forward in a positive way, to support them in doing that.

Absolutely. I am like, so glad that you highlighted that. I believe that the whole reason for this podcast is to help inspire people to do what's meaningful in their lives. And I can already tell just from talking with you how passionate you are on inclusion. And you are absolutely right where I feel like we need more leaders here that are stepping up and kind of getting over themselves and just being like, okay, how do I lead here effectively in Spite of all the weirdness that we all have, despite all the baggage that we have as a society and, you know, build that awesome future that we're all thriving, we're all prospering, we're all in it together. I firmly believe in that.

That's right. And the word that you said earlier about curiosity and humility comes to mind. Right. Super, courageous and bold. I mean, these are all words that some leaders will shy away from because you end up rocking the boat when you live into those things. And that doesn't necessarily mean then that you will progress. It may mean that someone else will progress. And that is when taking a backseat. It's hard for many, many people. And we have to be real about that. And we are all human. So we make judgments. Right. We all have bias. And at the same time, it's understanding how to deal with those feelings and reactions as they come up. So a lot of the work that I do is behavior change work. And it's starting with the awareness level and just understanding myself, who I am, how I operate with others in this world, how I communicate and how that lands on people, you know, all of those things. And then it moves more into the system designs or design system change and how we disrupt in those areas. So.

Right on.

Yeah. Yeah.

I want to highlight too, all those questions you're asking yourself for inclusion are the exact same questions anyone who's a leader should be asking themselves. Because if you don't know your blind spots, you don't know what ruffles your feathers. You don't know how you ruffle other people's feathers. It's really hard to build consensus and relationships to move things forward or to get people on board. So I love, I want to point out that duality, but it's such a key point to.

Yes. And actually, I mean, to that point, one of the things that I'm working on with one of my clients in Saudi Arabia is called their future Readiness Program. It's Future Ready Leaders. And as part of the Future Ready Leaders program, you're learning how to be more inclusive. At the same time, you're learning how to be a better leader, how to even delegate more effectively. So so many of these things get wrapped up into it. But if we're going to be future Ready leaders, which this future, as we hear so much about future of work, all of that, it is going to look. And we already know this looks so different from two years ago, from three years ago, from 10 years ago. And we have to always be on our toes learning and developing and finding those blind spots like you said.

Said right on. And I'm glad that you brought up this current climate. So I wanted to ask you. So there's two terms that I've heard one a little like literally this week I was reading about. So there's the great resignation, right? There's also something called quiet quitting. Have you heard of this?

Quiet quitting? I can imagine what it is.

So, yeah, I, I'm still trying to suss it out. What I can gather, it's people either setting healthy boundaries, saying I'm going to work the 40 hours and spend time with my family and stuff, which is good, or it's people that are like, this job is completely BS and I'm going to resist by, you know, you're going to make me do busy work, then I'm going to put in minimal effort. And there's a huge debate going on. But I'm curious if we're talking about future ready leaders, if we're talking about these types of the great resignation, you know, people leaving bad jobs or switching up their careers or all that kind of stuff, how does inclusion or the opportunity of these big kind of societal things, how does that present an opportunity for inclusion to be part of the future in a more significant manner?

That's a really, really good question. There's a few things I think of right away that with a great resignation, it allows for, first of all, more entrepreneurs to say, I'm ready to raise my hand, are part of this. Right? I mean, we've been doing this for a little while, but at the same time it's saying, I see my talent. So for the individual, if they've decided to leave and they say I can see my talents and have confidence that I'm going to go test this out and try this out and I'm going to believe in myself. And I would say to those entrepreneurs, those small business owners, to not just do it based on your own confidence in yourself, but then also to have your community around you. And that community, you know, can be your family and friends. It can be supporters who have been colleagues that have worked around you and test it with them to say, like, what do you think of this idea? This is what I'd like to pose and try. You know, I'm actually at Stanford right now in an executive program.

Awesome.

And it is, it is awesome. And I'm in this course on design thinking and I use design thinking in the way I train and when I facilitate and help people. So this is like one of the ways that I approach inclusion, which is, I guess this is my value proposition and how I bring this element to the world differently is that I combine innovation like techniques for innovation and social innovation and how we actually get to solve problems together. I use design thinking techniques and other innovation focused ideas. I use that to solve these problems. And I bring together really diverse groups. So this is where the diversity comes into it. I bring in groups who have various perspectives which can cause a major clash when you first bring your diverse thinking together in one room. And so it's figuring out how do we do this. So I help teams figure out how do we work most effectively together. Understanding. We want to bring our strengths and our differences to this so that we get more innovative ideas. But we know we won't get there and research shows us we won't get there unless we have understood how to work more effectively together. They call that cultural intelligence. So I do a lot of work in space. Yes. So it's having these skills to do that. So I combine then the innovation space with the inclusion space and cultural intelligence, work with then high performance and, and I know we'll get to this. But how looking at high performance in a different way than a lot of my corporate clients have seen it before. So, so that is, that is for me being able to do that. And see for entrepreneurs, they take what they know is really solid and good about them, great ideas that they have and some of them will go and flourish right now and thrive in that space. Others where I'm seeing their space for inclusion and more belonging is in those organizations as an individual is in that organization. There may become more gaps now and maybe more opportunities to show skill sets that can fill those gaps that people weren't seeing before. And this is on the individual that being courageous to show what skills they have now or maybe they've been upskilling during COVID and they're saying, hey, look what I can do now. Courage to put that out there. But then at the same time I really, if you're a manager, leader in an organization or I really encourage you to start looking at your team differently. Right. I mean that is where, when I'm working with future ready leaders, I'm saying, so where are your blind spots when you look at your team? Have you asked them what they love doing, what they're really encouraged by? And I think by digging in deeper and knowing your team members better, we're going to start to see how we can disrupt systems that weren't working before.

Right on. Yeah. So I I'm loving the connection of innovation and inclusion going forward, you know, because I was it something like 80% of businesses that, you know, start end up failing the first three to five years.

Yeah.

Which is a lot. But how much of that might be. How could you Maybe be that 20% statistic if you had more perspectives, if you had more angles to kind of pick apart an idea. Which I really loved that concept. And how the ripple effects of how society changes when we're actively open to different perspectives and that collaboration. Right. And having someone that worked in Silicon Valley for six years, it's not the smartest person that usually makes the biggest difference. They can make a big difference. They can also cause a lot of problems with ego. But the teams and companies that are consistent over time are the ones that can check the ego and say what's best for the organization, what's best for this product, what's best for the customers. And that open question through different perspectives, you'll find the right match.

That really happened. Yeah, because that's exactly it though, because. So I worked in Silicon Valley for about two and a half years or so. About two years, but I worked remotely, so it was. I wasn't technically physically there, but I would visit once a month. And the interest. Interesting thing that I saw was, you know, really innovative ideas that would get squashed immediately and. Because that wasn't the loudest voice in the room or that wasn't the popular thing to think of. And even though, and it's not just Silicon Valley, of course, that that happened yet at the same time, when we think about how do we actually solve the problem. You, you said it. It's like we're getting these perspectives, these diverse perspectives from. And this is to my. My Stanford course and in design from the user, from the customer. And the customer might actually be our colleague, if we think about it, you know, like, who might have to be the paying person, but who might that customer be? So always put ourselves in someone else's shoes and think about it from their perspective. And if we practice empathy on that level, like deep level, actually digging in, doing the discovery that we might need, if we really have a challenge we're trying to solve, have we gone through the process of discovery and then getting multiple ideas in the room and ideating together and even go so far as prototyping something and testing it out on people. So a lot of the tech world, I'm actually bringing into the space of inclusion and belonging and saying, how do we. This is where the disruption comes in. And this is where moving from linear to more expensive exponential, you know, it's two. It's these from two shifts that start with a mindset. And if people aren't willing to start with a growth mindset, then they're still in that very beginning awareness phase of behavior change, and they got a little ways to go to move.

Absolutely.

We have to start somewhere. I'm not knocking them at all, but it just is one of those facts that to really, truly get involved and start to make movement in this space, we need people to start at least with that growth mindset to say, hey, I've got something to learn.

Absolutely. That particular. The reason why you hear about it so much in personal development stuff, or then the high performance stuff is that it's so key to growth. Right. You know, because if you're not courageous enough to make mistakes, if you're not courageous enough to say, hey, I don't know about this, and you stop trying, that's when that's, you know, kneecaps learning and you can't move ahead, you know, so.

That's right. That's right. And that's. That's where unfortunately, I think over the last few years, you know, people have paused and they have started to see things. You know, some are shaking out of it right now, but when they went into this pause mode, it was. They. It was almost a stop learning. And I'm speaking specifically in space of inclusion. And it became, oh, yeah, we understand with all of the events that have happened around the world with, you know, the pieces that we can see our horrible. Yes, inclusion and diversity are important. Right. We see that racism lives. We see that you can just keep putting out there all these things. But the thing is, we've stopped often just right there to say, okay, then let's. And companies might say, okay, let's hire someone specifically in our space in inclusion and diversity. Which is a good thought. It's an action to go with the words, you know, putting out statements to go with the intent that they really want to make a difference. So they're trying really hard. And at the same time, sometimes they're pulling in people who have never been in this space and they're just in the organization. And maybe they have a passion for it or an interest in it or a lived experience. Experience. But it's not the same as someone who's trained in the space of inclusion and diversity. And I say that because we would never pull someone in. You wouldn't pull me into a finance role because I've owned a Business and have lived experience in working in finance in my business. But you wouldn't pull me into a finance role just because of that. But we do that in inclusion and diversity. And I really feel for the people who get pulled into that role because then they end up burning out. It's sad. It's really sad what's happening right now. Now that they've been in there for about a year. I have seen so many turnovers in this space which usual. But now it's more than what it used to be.

Right, right. Yeah. I think that's exacerbated by everything else kind of going on from what I've seen also.

That's right. That's right. So this is actually one of the things that I'm working on is pulling together some of the high performance group coaching for people who are in transition. You know, like rather they've transitioned into a new role or they've transitioned into the inclusion and diversity space or you know, typically it's around those who are in inclusion and belonging or in that innovation space because they run like parallel lives in many ways.

Right.

So let's figure out how to help support them and help them thrive when it. It's not always the easiest space to try to thrive in.

100 and just for people. Again, if you're not familiar with high performance, when we say high performance, the definition is to beat whatever normal in your life without destroying your relationships and health in the process. Or burnout. It's the same thing as burnout. So just that's, that's kind of how high performance helps in this particular. On this topic and instance. But it's good for anyone that's trying to get ahead, that's trying to really reach their full potential and that feeling of presence and joy and confidence that we talk about all the time.

Yes. I love that you jumped in to define it because like I said earlier, I think it's. I know it is misunderstood what high performance is, you know, and I'm sure, Sean, that you've run into this as well in our work. And then people say like, oh yeah, I'm a high performer. And then you get into it and you start asking about it and really they've burned relationships. They've. They're well being, you know, it's not good. They're not healthy, they're not feeling well. They don't have the energy to, to make it through the day. And I say that because I've been there and I thought I was a high performer.

Same.

So just then Understanding what actually has allowed me to break almost free of that hold of thinking, okay, I've got to achieve, achieve and push hard because I know I am an achiever. That doesn't mean I slow down on things. However, I now achieve in my well being space at the same time.

So important.

Yes. And I achieve in my relationships with my family and make sure that those are all pieces that are a part of my life and I'm designing the life that I want to live rather than allowing others to really control and say this is how it should be. It's like, wait, hold on. Life is really an experiment, totally journey, right. We're trying to figure out how to A, operate with others, how to B, you know, do what we love to do. And maybe some of us aren't in that phase yet, but for me that's a non negotiable now. I have to love it, right. I have to find joy and energy in what I do. And if we can figure out the piece, and this is again why do this work is because if we can figure out how to work in a space and collaborate and build and grow together, we're going to thrive so much more and find joy in life so much more.

Absolutely. Especially we spend so much time at work. And I just wanted to go back. So I think this really segues into a really nice question of if you were to look at someone, if you're going to hire someone that's in diversity and inclusion, like what would you look for as an indication that they're at the top of their game, that they are really an expert and really great at it versus someone that's super passionate about it, but maybe still figuring it out or promoted into it and didn't really want it, but now they were told to do it or whatever the scenario might be, you know, because I'm sure that happens too.

That's a really good question. So the, the piece that I would say is first, of course you're looking at their experience in this space. So this is, it's a hard one. So I've worked in hr, right. And currently have a role with a client that I'm a talent management consultant with a global organization. So there's, and that's, you know, different layers. So when you're looking at talent, they may have a passion and that is really good. But you're trying to see and it depends on the level of role that you're putting them in. If you're looking for a senior leader, this is when they have to have Experience in this space. They have to have had some kind of role. And it doesn't have to be as a senior leader, but it has to be, you know, in. They have to have talent in system design. They have to understand what the organization looks like and how to design the organization. The shifting that might happen, you know, for them to have some, you know, HR experience or at least they don't have to come from hr. But understanding the piece around HR and the talent and how that works is critically important. Then also, I mean a lot of people who are in inclusion diversity, some come from finance, some come from legal, some come from marketing. I mean they come from all different areas. And that's actually amazing because then you get a pool of leaders that are coming from all different functions. So they're seeing again from really diverse perspectives. But you want to make sure that they have actually tried to do the work that you are asking them to do or thinking strategically. So here is the biggest challenge for leadership in this space is that and I parallel this again to innovation. They are asked to be subject matter experts in so many things. You have to be good with finance and budget. You have to understand legal because you're often doing compliance work. You have to understand business systems because you're doing strategy work across the organization with the C suite and CEO. You need to then also understand talent and employee engagement and how to get people involved in the work. I mean there's so many more things you can keep going with this. So this is where like they are system level leaders. And so you need people who can see systems at that level when they're at the top. That's not necessarily the same for people who are in roles that there are like working in employee engagement and whatnot. That that's critically so not leaders in that level. But if they're coming in to be new in the space, then yes, let's get people from all different walks of life and functions because they can see things differently and learn the role. But the leader part is the part where I'd push back to say you really need to look to see what experience they've had in this space. There is one caveat though. It's also looking to see has that leader I don't have. They actually, how do you say this? So they can be have done this work and this stands not just for inclusion and diversity, but for any. They can have done this work for a long, long, long time or you know, have done really good work. But if it is, they're trying the same solution for every organization they're in, then they're missing the boat if they're not testing and trying and trying new ways in new organizations because each organization lives and thrives in a different way. And so that's the one thing I would say is if it, if they come in saying this is the only solution for this organization because this is what I've done in the past, then I would say pause and dig in deeper to see what's below the surface.

Right. That is such a great call out when dealing with any talent. Right. Like the red flag of like, are they doing the same thing over and over again? Which if you're new to an organization, new to a role, I could give you an initial edge or initial bump if people haven't been doing it that way. But if they're not willing to adapt, to learn, to go back to that growth mindset we were talking about earlier that is going to cause problems for you later. So I love that little pull apart. I also had a question. So we talked about a leader in inclusion, if it's. And in diversity, if this is a new role. How often do you see that organizations hire one person to handle it where it sounds like you listed off a team of expertise that I imagine a lot of times one person has to figure out, right. What's your experience in that?

So I think things are, I know I can't say they're quite changing, but so there's different ways organizations look at this. And it depends how large the organization is and what governance model they choose. So it really comes down to there's not just one way to do this, but there are some that will take a very centralized approach that there is one leader of inclusion and diversity and then they have a small team. And I think one of the surveys most recently said, you know, three to five people max on the team that is typically the center of excellence for inclusion and diversity. Right. And that can call many things right now. Deib, dei, ide. It's usually never die Diversity, Inclusion, Equity for the acronym.

That's awesome.

So there's. There's a DEIBA for access and accessibility. So there's, there's so many things you can call it, but one of the ways is just having one leader. But then what happens with those Sometimes the challenges it all the issues around inclusion and belonging and equity get funneled to the one area and they're dealing with all of those issues the entire time and it becomes less of employee experience work. So how we actually work together and function together the culture side. So that's really what I'm talking about. The work that I do is the human experience and culture transformation work. What often happens if you have a small team, it becomes we do mandatory trainings. We, you know, and we're rolling out training all the time. We're dealing with eeoc, you know, and compliance. Because that's a foundation. You have to have those things. So there's nothing wrong with that. But it is a challenge. If that is what you're for an organization. If the whole function is only about that, then you're missing a whole world of helping people work across the organization together. So that's when we miss out on the high performance work. We miss out on the innovation work that can come from it. And we're really only functioning to check the box. This is where I like hand off different things and I say like, if you're looking to check the box, I'm not the right one to help you. I may know others that can. So that check is important. But I'm ready to go to the next level with you all. The one other one I'll mention there's a few other structures that companies use, but one other one is more like a hub and spoke. And this is one when you're larger, you can have different leaders who are in the different business units. And then in the business units they actually have pods of people or ambassadors. So you get at it in different ways that there may be specific positions that that's the leader in that business unit. But then it may be more a volunteer basis. A lot of people have employee resource groups. A lot of companies have those ergs. They might call them inclusion resource groups specifically when they're around inclusion and diversity work. There's a lot of different ways to get at that networks. But this is also what I'm talking about with the exponential inclusion piece. It's actually finding those champions that are, you know, the key super nodes within an organization and you're connecting them together. And it's not just ergs, but that's a part of it. You're finding people and you're helping to spread, you know, whether it's an idea and help to go and you're doing the actual project work together. So it's not just talk, which I think there's some amazing inclusion resource groups, employee resource groups out there. So I don't think those are just talk. They've helped move things forward in organizations. This is the thing though, having these networks, having the key sponsors in organizations that can Help companies, help individuals, leaders take action. Having leaders who can be bold and courageous, those are all really key to help any. And I know you didn't really ask this, but any inclusion, diversity, equity and belonging initiative, program, any word you want to call it, I call it the ecosystem. To get those to work, you have to have help from top down, bottom up, middle out. And that engagement has to be working on all levels, 100%.

Because I'm a nerd and I come from technology. We had a saying that quality assurance, the quality of your product is a whole organization sport, not just for QA at the end where you have no opportunity to fix things. You really have to be thinking about it from the inception of the idea to the design of it, to the actual implementation and how that gets sourced out to the qa, the follow up, all that. It's a whole organizational play. So that's awesome.

It is. So I mean, if we can start thinking about this space. And this is why I get so excited about this because people like you and me coming together, that we have very different backgrounds. Right. You're an analyst. Before I was in hr. Right. Coming together and we're saying like, oh yeah, what if we use this process which is typically used in the IT space or in, you know, whatever it might be, and we merge it with this way of thinking or this person who thinks in this way and we start pulling these things together and it's not going to be easy all the time, but what if we experiment with these things together? I mean, it's just to me, so much fun. But also like, why haven't we done this so much more?

Well, that's my next question to you. I am kidding.

Fusion of people, fusion of ideas, fusion of our ways of practicing thinking and doing. And that's where I just, I find joy in this work. Because every day is new and every day you're finding people who see the world in a different way and you're learning more about yourself by seeing it from their eyes in a different way or seeing a practice. It's just, it's a lot of fun in that way.

Yeah, absolutely. I can like, I love creating things and like this seems like the Star Trek adage. Infinite. What is it? Infinite. Infinite possibilities. Infinite combination. I'm totally butchering that. All the nerd folks are going to.

Be great to me.

But yeah.

Yes, but that is the thing. Like if, if we can look at. And this is one of the. The from two shifts. If you can look at it from not a finite mindset. But set an infinite mindset like, and you're saying, oh, wait, this challenge may have infinite ways that we can get to a solution. It's not just one way. There's never just the one way you get to it. There may be one best solution in that moment and for that environment and space, but it doesn't mean that next week that will also still be the best one.

Right.

So that I, I love. I mean, that is all of these from two shifts that we think about from our mind, like from the fixed to the growth, from the finite to the infinite. We're looking at, from the linear to this more exponential way of seeing it. And you know, instead of that and moving up, that is, that's what we're working on.

Right on. So, okay, we've covered so much ground, so really quick to kind of start bringing it home. If someone was new to exponential inclusion and wanted to either themselves bring it into their work, their life, or you're a business leader, business owner, and wanted to get started on the right path in implementing and just kind of wrapping your head, would there be like two or three things that they could start doing today, like, habits wise, that would help them just get started?

Yes. So I'll speak to those who want to be future ready leaders. Right. And some of the habits that you can do to really get started to be a more inclusive leader, because I've put myself in that we all can always be more inclusive and own it. The biggest thing is, and this leads into the cultural intelligence. So it's, it's first just accepting the fact that we are human, that we have bias and understand if we're driven to do the hard work, when the hard work presents itself. Right. When the challenge is there, when I am face to face with someone that I'm not seeing eye to eye with, and I might feel it right in my gut that, and it may actually. You have a physical. Your amygdala gets triggered, you have a physical reaction, your face starts getting red. That's what happens to me. But whatever it might be for you, when you start feeling that rise up, then that's when you pause yourself and take a deep breath. So this is kind of like a habit that is not a daily habit that you build in, but you have to train yourself to do that to, to actually pause in the moment when you feel like, what is this? Like, I don't, I don't understand this. I don't understand that person. I don't like how this is turning out. There may be another reason for why this is happening. And I. I will say, I mean, again, it happens to all of us. My husband caught me in one the other day that I got upset with, and he was like, whoa. And I kind of went off the tracks. And I was like, I. I don't understand why they're doing this. And he said, well, there could be multiple reasons that you don't know why they're reacting this way. And I was like, oh, this is what I teach on a daily basis. And you just taught me. Yes, but it was really helpful because sometimes we need someone else to point it out. The blind spots, the things that we don't see. And it actually was something. A backstory that I didn't realize what was happening to that person. They couldn't make it to a call. It felt like it was happening continually that they were canceling it that week. And there just happened to be a series of really things they could not control to not make it to that meeting. And so it's. All of us need to pause in that moment. So that first thing is learning to pause yourself, take a breath, and understand what's behind it for someone before we react. The second. Yeah, the. The second thing I'll mention is, and I think this is just a high performance habit for. For everyone. I think it applies for inclusion and diversity and equity. And the work that we do as leaders in the space is. Is a gratitude journal. It's because it's hard work. And this is whether you're a leader in that space or just a leader and you're trying to understand how to be more inclusive and collaborative, then it's when you can pause and look back at the day and say, I'm really grateful for this, and I'm really grateful for this. And if you think about the challenges that you had during that day and just pause for a moment on those and say, like, what was I grateful about in that challenge in that moment? How did I see someone differently? Or how do I see myself differently now as a result? And that's just a really good way to put your mind frame in a whole nother place so that, you know, the next day, hopefully sleep well that night, and the next day wake up with a fresh mindset that's positive so you can react differently if there was a situation that day before.

Excellent.

So those are two. There's a lot more, but I'm gonna. I'm pause on two. Unless you want me to say any more.

No, no, I. I think those are really powerful. Just like taking that that pause and then going back to growth mindset and being curious about people. You know, like, you don't know if somebody had a family member die from.

That's right.

Unexpectedly or something. You don't know if it's low blood sugar. You know, sometimes it's. It could just be they haven't had breakfast. You know, I personally believe giving the benefit of the doubt to people is the. It's just easier for you to live honestly. Like you're not putting stories on other people. And then when you're wrong, you double down because you're embarrassed that you're wrong. I see this happen all the time. It's just like, no, they didn't mean to, you know, yell at you for taking the last soda or whatever. You know, it's like, so that interpersonal skill of take a beat, give some positive intention, have a little bit of grace and take your ego out of it too. Like some of it is like, oh, you're insulting me. It's like, no, you're in a bad spot, that's on you. And I can separate myself. I think that's really important. And this gratitude journal of recognizing your progress because I imagine this work isn't linear and it's not exponential and how good it can be. I'm sure that it could be feeling really good and then feel like it's going really bad and you kind of like bounce around until you get to equilibrium. So like, how do you ride that roller coaster? You know, buckle yourself in for the crazy ride?

Yes, absolutely. And it every day, you know, changes when you're leading in this work. Every day looks different when you're a leader dealing with people every day it looks different too. People present different things every single day. And when I was doing a one on one coaching session just the other day, the leader was saying what I don't understand what that person was thinking. And to your point, we usually then when we don't understand and there's a gap, we fill that gap with what we think, like you just said. And we then make these assumptions and often they're wrong, quite often. So it's figuring out how, how do we, how do we then just pause long enough and be curious and ask those questions? And this is deep work, this, this work. So I really feel like, you know, I thought about for a long time, am I doing really inclusion and diversity work? Yes. I've come from that space. I've come from working with people from all over the world. I've come from teaching English to speakers of Other languages I've seen from multiple perspectives and I'm like, is this really inclusion work or is this just humaning work?

Yes.

We call it inclusion and diversity, but truly what I, what I hope we all can get to at some point is I can call it, I'm helping, I'm helping us human better. I'm helping us to like, live and thrive for who we are and who we want to be. And we can show up in a such a, a better way if we start practicing some of these habits and learn that this is not just a one time, go to a training and. Okay, I've got it now. No, because. Yep, because I am, I am, like you mentioned, I'm a master facilitator. And I could tell you if someone died trainings that said I'm good. I'm like, well, then I should have just been like, paid, I don't know, billions of dollars and I'm done.

Yeah, 100%.

Yeah. So it will take time and it is a journey. Yet at the same point, the encouragement I can give to people is because I know it can be frustrating to hear like, it's a journey and I have to live on this journey forever. At the same time, we have wins in this. And this is why, you know, said journal so that you can see the ones. And if you're not a journaler, fine. Then every once in a while, just write down when you've had a win. And so like, write down, here's my struggle and here, here's one of the wins in the space. I really, I communicated with this person that I've really struggled to communicate with, you know, and I feel like I've sat in that, whether that's a spouse or a partner or a friend or a colleague, you know, or, you know, I went outside of my comfort zone and it felt really scary when I started doing it.

Yeah.

And at the same time, I felt good because the other person expressed to me how, how that helped them feel like they belong or how that helped them feel like they weren't such an outsider in the space because I took the initiative to go outside of my own comfort zone that that is a win. And so we just can start to calculate those wins a little bit more and say, like, this is work that we all have to live into just to be better humans.

Absolutely. I'm always telling the people that I work with, you need reflection time, to own and to feel and to have a little bit of pride in all the amazing things that you're accomplishing because so many times it's just on to the next thing or, you know, kids pull you away or, you know, life happens and we're, you know, life is going to happen all the time. And I love the idea of thinking of it as a journey also, because it is like, you don't. We're going out in the wilderness. Sometimes it feels like you're in the middle of nowhere. You don't know if you're going the right way or the wrong way. But that's part of the adventure of it. So.

Yes, yes. And that we summit. So if we move on with that metaphor, you know, like, we can be hikers and go and summit something and that, that still, that summit isn't the end. You just made it to the top right now you gotta make your way back down again and have your experiences on the way down. And that may not be the last time that you go on a hike and you go on another mountain and find another thing to summit.

So you see the next taller mountain go, gosh, no, start walking towards that.

Exactly.

So two more questions for you real quick. I really love this question because it usually gets people thinking. So we talked about, if you were a beginner in this space, a couple habits you should start. What if you're already on that journey? Maybe you've summited a couple of mountains along the way and you want to amplify your exponential inclusion journey. What would be one to three things that you think would be really important for the people that have started and are on the way, but really just need to get to the next level? Maybe it's things that you've noticed, helping people along the journey that are in the intermediate.

Yes, I love that because in the beginning, it's about exposure to new experiences and people and different ways of seeing, Seeing the world. You're building your awareness when you're an intermediate level in this space and you've said, okay, I've, I've dabbled in this, I really enjoy it. I, I feel like I'm getting better and being more inclusive and my collaboration skills are getting better and I'm teaching others on my team to be more collaborative. Then the first thing is continuing to push yourself in that learning journey to see where you can take, where you can take different types of learning and pull it into this learning. So again, taking it from design thinking, taking it from, you know, whatever your area of expertise is. Because the challenge with this space is that we often see it in a silo and people talk about this space as, oh, yes, inclusion and diversity. And we have this, this that we do when really it lives across organizations and it lives across, you know, communities. It lives across. So it's. There's this intersection always and this is where the supernotes. So the action would be getting involved in something that is more like a network that can get you involved, get you understanding different ways of seeing and learning, keep broadening your perspective and then also taking action. So when you continue to move on this behavior change, you know, journey and this journey of yes, I'm deciding I want to support this work. You are then, as you decide, deciding to take action. So the difference between the beginner and more advanced learner in this space is that they're not just learning for learning sake, they're learning so, so that they can apply it and move the world forward. Awesome.

I love that. There's one of my previous guests, Emmanuel George, if you. He was talking about leadership and he mentioned that the higher up as a leader you go in an organization, the smaller your peer group gets. But really it's shifting your mindset that your peer group is the same position in other organizations around you. And he was talking in pharmacy and that thing. And I love that idea of getting involved in that network that can help you support you, can help you work through problems that is such a powerful amplifying force in the world. And so that's so awesome. And I know that you have that group again, the. I'm going to. I want to call it Super Inclusion. That's not what you call it though.

I like it though. No, So I have. It's Exponential Inclusions Innovators Network.

The innovators. So okay, yeah.

Yes, but, but we are bringing our superpowers to it and it, you know, putting inclusion on that next level. So what we talk about in this is. So we're all really exponents in this work. We are people who, so those who join this, we're people who believe that inclusion, diversity, equity, belonging, these are really important things and that we have to figure out how to do it better so that we can be more collaborative, vibrant, positive in this world and all thrive. So that's kind of the basic foundation of it. But then the network itself. So I actually just launched this network and I'm looking for people who are interested in being founders. Yes. So as founding members, we come in and the goal is. And really just for this network, we're co creating pretty amazing things together. So I go live and I bring in other experts to go live once a month that we show up 90 minutes. We can meet each other, have some networking with each other, learn from each other. And then we also have. So there's a platform, of course, that we can do some discussions on on the back end and watch replays. But the thing that I really love about this network is that we also have challenges that we work on together. So a monthly challenge that we put out for each other and we may, we may. You know, I'm crowdsourcing the ideas for those right now and then create it as a how might we statement, you know, how. How might we, you know, and whether it's, you know, how might we. If it's a grand, grandiose idea, how might we first, you know, create more inclusive lunchrooms? Right. Someone might have an idea like that and people might vote that up and say like, yes, that's so important to us. And then others might say, well, how. How might I be a more future ready leader or more inclusive leader? Or how might I bring my team, who is incredibly diverse around the globe, how might I bring them together to be more effective? So those are some examples, but we're going to crowdsource them and bring them from the group to say, how do we work on these together, whether they're individual challenges or group challenges that we have.

That's awesome. That sounds so cool. I'm super, super stoked for you.

It's really for people who are again, across different functions and the basis is that they believe that this is important and that they want to do something about it. So take some action. So we'll learn together. But the taking action part is critical. And so really I see people who are and people who have come to me to say like, okay, finally, it's those who feel like misfits. They feel like they've been lonely in their own workspace because they're doing really important work, but they don't feel like they have a place to connect and help build and move something like this forward. It's people who have these outrageous ideas that maybe have had their hands slapped because they bring these ideas to the table and their voice gets shut down. So it's creating a space that we can come together and hear these ideas, build each other up, support each other, and then also move some of these ideas forward. So I'm really excited about this network.

That's amazing. And I think going back to the great resignation, quiet quitting, I think one of the big retention issues of organizations, one of the big just feeling appreciated is just that act of test for your organization. If you're listening is can you have an idea and have the ability to go implement it without people telling you, no ridiculing you, shutting you down? Because that's innovation. I think that's good learning. That's how you get people to have ownership in your organization. That's how, you know. Yeah, it's just. That's another way to maybe use this idea. But it's such a great thing to help people just feel like they belong in an organization. That's kind of what the goal is.

Absolutely. Absolutely. So I think I challenge, and hopefully it came from our discussion today that, you know, my view on this work means that we're all involved in it because we're humans and because we are all diverse beings. So we all need to be involved in this. And then at the same time, we can all look at it for ourselves. And to say, where might I be not bringing my ideas because I felt like they weren't welcomed, you know, or I felt like I didn't belong in this space. And the more we can actually do that introspection and look at ourselves in that way, we can connect with others who feel this even more on a daily basis or feel it more often. But just having the empathy to connect and understand what it feels like to be an outsider, what it feels like to not belong, then when you see someone and you see something in action that you're like, that's not right. How can I then, even if it's uncomfortable for me, reach across and say, how can I support you?

Yeah. Oh, excellent. Excellent. Okay, I got one final question to bring us home, and that is, do you have any habit habits that keep you on purpose every day, every week, or every month?

Oh, yes, I have lots of habits. But what I'll bring.

Awesome.

What I'll bring it to is, you know, for me, the mindset piece has been the biggest piece for me personally. So if I my habit along, that is every morning when I wake up, I need to learn something. So there's. Whether it's an app that I'm listening to that someone is talking about, motivation, getting excited, seeing the world fresh that day, or if it is a meditation that I do that I'm listening to, an app to calm me so that I have voice. My voice isn't so loud, just chattering in my own ear or others in my ear. Right. That I'm. That I'm listening between the lines is really what I'm looking to do. So I'm trying to quiet myself long enough that I can hear and see what kind of how can I bring my fullness today to others and that if I don't have that energy, which I've been in in the past, right. In the other burnouts that I've had, it's really been critical that I physically got sick because of those burnouts. And so I have to understand the weight of the mental work this is. And so for me, that's the number one habit is that if I don't pause during the day and then the second related to that is breath work and actually pausing. Let's say for me, 3pm is one of the times that I say, okay, I've worked pretty hard today. Have I been breathing? Have I been enough air that allows me to get energized and continue on? Or even, you know, even between meetings. Let's say I'm in a meeting, zoom meeting, every single hour, a new meeting. Then I am trying to keep up this and be consistent with this, that I at least turn off my camera for a moment and take a deep breath before I go into the next. And I stand and I sit. Right now I'm standing. I raise my desk up and sit. So I balance my position quite a bit. So these are all habits that I've stacked in, but mainly to help me stay focused, help me to stay calm, stay centered, and to hear hear others around me.

Wow, okay. That's so much goodness there. I love the mindsets. I love the brake work. The brakes, the moving of the body, which we talk about in high performance all the time. So. All right, Kristin, this has been an absolute pleasure. I feel like we could probably talk another like 3 hours, but I know you're busy, you got things to do real quick for the audience. Could you tell them where they can follow up with you, how maybe they can become a founder if they're interested where to find you on social. And I'll make sure to put those in the show notes too. But where can they find you?

Yes, yes. I think the best way. So I am on LinkedIn. Feel free to. To find me on LinkedIn and then also best way to find out about this network, the Innovators network, is to go to www.exi.global. that stands for exponential inclusion. So EXI Global. So if you go to the website, then you'll be able to find the different things that we do and find that piece. Now if you can't find the founding, the founding invitation to be a founding member, that's. It's limited. So if you can't find that one direct message me through LinkedIn and I'll let you know if it's still available or not.

Right on. Yeah, this will probably come out 3 weeks ish after we talk about this, so apologies if we didn't get you.

We'll find something else cool for you. Yes.

Okay. We got you covered, everyone. Don't you worry.

Right. All right. Okay.

Well, Kristen, thank you so much, everyone. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. This is such important work and just I think if we could be a little bit more human, it would go all long way and facing all the challenges we do have, as you know, this blue marble floating in space, you know, so we need more of this shared experience, the shared vision and this exponential revolution of coming together and working together to solve big problems. So thank you so much again and we'll see you hopefully soon.

Sounds great. Thank you, Sean.

What an episode with Kristen here. I think the overarching theme of we all want to be included, we all want to be heard, we all want to be recognized as human beings as such a universal and powerful thing. And if we think about it in the terms of what had happened or over Covid with a lot of people having the world shrunk into their homes and living rooms and not much else, you know, getting back there and realizing we all had a unique experience through this global pandemic, that we all have unique experiences and that it's worth exploring and it's worth highlighting and it's worth listening as much as it is working on it, important problems and getting stuff done. You know, in the end, we all find meaning in the relationships we have and we all have a responsibility to really recognize that we are leading our teams, our communities and the people around us. And I think this is such a great conversation around it. So what I took away again from Kristen is, you know, getting your mindset right, which is what we talked about in season one with Michael Seeley. You're doing your kind of like breathing, moving work in the afternoon when your energy dips and to always be curious, you know, having that hunger to learn about people's stories and how they think about things. And really we didn't say it during the episode, but withholding judgment to allow to examine people, I think is hugely powerful. So I hope you loved this episode. If you have a question, if you have a different takeaway from yourself or you want to get in the discussion, please go to community.scharbutner.com which is linked below. Wherever you're listening to this episode and join the community for free. We help encourage each other to live with a little bit more meaning to go out there and just have a support group of people who want to push and do good out in the world. So hopefully you'll join us there. I'd love to cheer you on and recognize you for your great questions or great insights into today's episode or any of the other episodes. So with that said, thanks for joining me on the Meaningful Revolution podcast. We'll see you in the next episode.