There Is No Right Way To Grieve | The Hard Stuff Is OK with Sherry Belul

Oh, it's live just now.

Hello. Hi, everybody out there in the Internet world. Hi, Sean. I'm glad to be here with you. Sean, thank you for doing this. I need to take care of one little technology thing. Can you start us off while I'm gone?

Of course, of course. So, yeah, this is the first time I'm streaming the YouTube. Cherry's going to stream to Instagram and that requires a lot of kind of extra setup. But so Sherry and I, if you don't know. Sherry. Oh, you're back. It's.

I love this. I love it. Take it away.

Awesome. Well, Sherry and I are certified high performance coaches. We've been friends for a while. We live in the Bay Area, so we get coffee every now and then. And probably about a year and a half, two years ago now, I don't even know how long we grabbed coffee. We're talking about the book Bittersweet by Susan Cain and how it relates to our work as coaches and the communities that we're in where it's a lot of people being super positive and trying to find the silver lining and like bulldozing through any type of negative emotions and how sometimes we need to hold space for the hard stuff. And so we're like talking about that. We're like, you know what, like this feeling of bittersweetness that Susan Cain talks about is really connective. It's how people kind of build connection in a lot of ways. The book goes into it pretty beautifully, better than I can right now. But Jerry and I started in one of our platforms that we're a part of, Growth Day. Doing this hard stuff is okay talk just to hold space, to hold that. And as soon as we do started those, we also would do these lives right afterward to kind of debrief on things that we learned or things that we noticed or patterns or just general thoughts. And so that's what this is. Even though we didn't have a Hard stuff's okay right before this call. This is a little bit delayed from maybe a couple weeks ago, but we're here yet.

And if I might, Sean, it's actually kind of a follow up to our very own Hard Stuff.

Okay, that's true, baby.

So I'm just gonna, you know, I. I want to be fully transparent. I've been doing this whenever I'm. I'm in groups or with people or live or anything. I am in it. I am in the grief right now, not at this moment. So, you know, don't worry. But you never know when it comes Up. And I also. So for two reasons, I like to say this. One is the slightest un. Unexpected thing, right. Will bring grief on. Anyone who's gone through grief knows that it could be a word. It could be anything. And so I always like to say that, because if I cry, I cry. Second of all, I think it's really important. Part of why Sean and I are doing this is to normalize that life can have hard stuff. I mean, in fact, life does have hard stuff, right?

It's part of it and part of us.

So yesterday, my dear friend Sean took the train all the way under the bay. Oh, that's all the way under the bay. To come and sit with me so I could cry on a park bench. And we kind of had our very own, like, little hard stuff is okay talk. Which it made me want to talk to you some more today in a more public way, because people need. We need to be talking about this. So, gosh, there's two places I want to start. I think, Sean, if it's okay. I think what's most top of mind is actually what we were talking a lot about yesterday, which is that you are so generously sharing with me what happened for you in the aftermath of your mother's. Gosh, I can hardly say it. It's so. In the aftermath of your mother's passing and so talking about, like, you know, there's all these do's and don'ts out there of how to be with people when they're grieving, but maybe you just want to launch in and say, like, some of the stuff that came up for you yesterday when you were. You were talking to me about it.

Well, and for further context, you were asking me about that experience in particular because of the grief you're going through and some of the people around you are going through.

Yes.

And if we. If I could sum up what we were talking about, it would be like, there's no one way to grieve properly or no way to support people properly. Like, it really just depends on the person and the circumstance and your relationship to them. Trying to think of any other caveats we can add on to that.

But one thing I've been quoting you on, if it's okay that interrupt you for just a second, because I quoted you a few times now to different people, and I said, you know, one of the things that my dear friend Sean told me is it might depend on the minute or it might change. It might be one thing in one minute and change in the next. And I. To me, that Was also really important piece of this. Right. That there's not only so many factors externally, it's just internally what we're going through.

Yeah. And our capacities are very dynamic, especially when you're really raw. The closer to the event that caused grief, the more tough to speak good English, the tougher it is for people to kind of be even keel. Because, you know, a song comes that way. Still to this day, a Beatles song will come on. It was my mom's, like, favorite, favorite music. And it's like, one of those things where I know all the songs. I don't know how I know lyrics. Sometimes, like, sing along. I'm like, how do I know that? And it's just because my mom listened to it a bunch when I was growing up, and, like, that music's everywhere. So a random Starbucks, like, you know, Beatles song comes on. You're like, don't break down in front of people. Start sobbing uncontrollably, seemingly out of nowhere. But you know that.

Yeah.

Urge is there.

Yeah. Yeah. And I also. Sean, I really appreciated because. Right. We're talking about all the. All of it. We're talking about, like, grieving ourselves and allowing all of it, but also supporting, you know, someone else. And typically. Typically, it can be super complex. Right. Because a lot of times we might be grieving, but there's also people alongside us grieving. But one of the things that I. I took away from our conversation is that you sort of. There was a gentleness when you were talking about it. Like, you were sort of saying, like, you could say, like, hey, you know, would. Would. Would this maybe be helpful, you know, or not just this. Because. Because one of the things we're talking about is that in most of the grief books, and I just saw it today again, on another grief, like, Instagram site. You know, don't ask people. Don't just say, what can I do? You know, never say, what can I do? But you had a different take on that. A little bit. Yeah.

I think. I think there should be some curiosity on how to best support someone, you know, because for me, I'm a bit introverted. And in my situation, particularly when my mom passed, I was dating this wonderful woman for a very short time, and she wanted to, you know, fly out to be with the family and everything. And I was, you know, trying to plan the memorial and, like, trying to take care of my dad and my brother in the process. And it actually would have been worse to have another thing to worry about in that moment, understanding, too, that she was gonna Be the one to do like the longer term care.

Yes.

Because there's like the grieving, there's memorials, funerals, kind of that moment of closure for a lot of people. But like, she can be very helpful. But there's still a lingering process, of course.

Right? Yeah, yeah. And so to continue that, because I think what you were just saying about like, like to be gently curious, was there more you wanted to say about that?

Yeah. So, you know, everyone kind of grieves differently and I'm someone that needs to kind of. I can be very overwhelmed with emotion and so I need to take like bite sized bits of it. And so I know for. I knew for my process too that like, I don't want to talk about it, I don't want to deal with it. I just either want to be working on stuff or trying to put myself in a place to be close to those feelings.

Yeah.

And small things could set me off. Or you have that random song come up or someone says a phrase that reminds you of the grief that you're experiencing in a very overwhelming way. And so we were talking about how you can support someone in your life that's very close to you through this process. And it could be a little bit overwhelming to slop on, not to slap on, but to add on to with a lot of intense emotions on people trying to care for you and trying not to. I'm also a people pleaser. So there's this risk of disappointing people if I'm not allowing them to help me in the way that they think they need to. And that can get really weird. We didn't talk about that, but I was thinking about it this morning and I think that's also part of it for me. So being like, how is the best way to help you? I can do this, this, and this for you. Which I think is kind of getting to the crux of what all the grief books say. It's not just leaving it open ended, but allowing for a no, I guess is a way to think of it. It's like, I don't need help right now, but I appreciate it. And revisiting it too. It doesn't have like, you don't do that once and then bounce, you know, it's like, maybe I'll check in in two weeks. Hey, how are you doing? I'm thinking of you. I know you're hurting. I can do this, this, and this for you. Do any of these things seem good? How can I best support you? And I think that's a very direct and Caring way to check in, have that curiosity, offer a small menu of things that you're able and capable of doing. And so if people don't know how to. Sometimes you're so over with grief. You're like, I don't know. And like, oh, yeah, maybe taking care of bringing coffee over on Monday morning sounds like a great thing, and that's awesome. Or sometimes, like, I just need to be alone to, like, process or to feel or to, you know.

Sean, I. I just. I think this. I hope. I hope anyone listening now or later will really remember this part, because I want to tell you, I tried this out today, so it was so beautiful. And what I said, you know, I was very honest, and I said, listen, I have a very dear friend who lost his mother, and. And I was asking for what his thoughts were. And one of the things he said was, you know, offer a few things. And I said, but I also really heard him say, no is a perfectly fine answer. And so I also just tacked that on, like. And I was like, you know, I. I could do this, I could do that. I didn't want to over. I just said, I could do this, I could do that, I could do that, or other things, but. But also I could just do nothing and just have, you know, that I'm here in spirit. Right. And. And it was perfect because I think what you. What you're saying by the language you're using, I think some people do need to hear. No is also a very acceptable answer. Right. And I've really. I mean, I've not directly heard that, or maybe I forgot it if I have, but I think that that's a really beautiful part of offering, especially when someone's in grief.

Yeah. I would refer to you as the. I want to say, like the grief expert. I know you've studied it a lot and you run groups and have run groups in the past, but. Yeah, that was just my. I guess, my experience and what worked for me. And I remember in my situation, I remember feeling very fortunate to be able to articulate that enough to the people around me.

Yeah.

To be able to have that. That space. And that was a gift and showing that they were carrying and revisit it. So that's cool. I mean.

Yeah. Thank you. Well, then I also, I mean, to your point, so. So two things. I mean, one is I also did explicitly say, you know, I said. My friend said that things can change, you know, by the minute, by the hour, by the day, you know, and I understand, you know, grief. Grief is not Static. It's a. You know, it's a very dynamic thing. And so I said, I. I would like to also just reach out again, you know, you know, tomorrow. I forget what I said later today, tomorrow, whatever.

A couple minutes.

Make a minute. Is that okay? And the answer was, please. Right. And that was really interesting. Right. But I think that what. What got conveyed, I mean, beyond that in the conversation was this part means the world to me. Like, and I think this is the thing I wanted to convey to other people. I mean, of course, we all know that, but I think sometimes we forget that it is a gift. Like, and, you know, you did end up coming to see me yesterday, but the gift. The first gift was, was texting to say, hey, could I calm you and have a cup of coffee? That's the gift as much as actually coming. You know what I mean? Sometimes. Yeah, sometimes we just need the first gift of the offer sometimes.

And sometimes that's enough to just know that somebody's thinking of you in a hard time.

Yeah. Right. And so I. I feel like I'm. I'm so glad we're doing this today because first, like, I'm having the chance to anchor in what we talked about for myself, but also to thank you. Right. Because, you know, it's. It's. This is an important thing to talk about, and I feel like it's an important thing for me to know as a human being. But I hope that other people who may be like me never learned. I. Nobody ever talked to me about how to be with grief or how to be. Talk to other people about it. I don't know about you. Did you?

No, actually, like, I was reflecting on this earlier today. Like, I would say that I. Like, nobody really talked to me about it. I thought I was really bad at it. I was just trying to show up for my friend as best as I could. And it reminded me, too, of this hard stuff. Is okay group that we run, how important it really is. Because, like, in a way, like, running a group is different from being one on one with a buddy, you know, and, like, somebody's in it and going through it. And. Yeah, I'm very grateful that we've been doing this work. And I think in a weird way, we. We were preparing each other for that moment, you know, so that.

You know what? Isn't that something? Right? Because obviously, sometimes we know that grief is coming and sometimes we don't. And part of it, you know, as coaches, I think this is one of the things you tell me if this isn't true for you, but I'm going to project is that a lot of the work we do is training ourselves to be present for a moment that's coming in the future so that we can, you know, best take care of ourselves for. I can't really lack a better. Better language, but it's like you and I have been having these conversations for a year and a half. We've been doing these groups. I've been lead grief groups. Wham. I'm in grief. I can tell you, like, it's so helpful, like, for one thing, that you and I have this history already of talking about it. Right. So it makes it a little bit easier to, you know, be in it with you. Yeah.

And it proves the thesis of our. The reason we were doing the group to begin with is to normalize. Talking about it. I actually. I haven't thought about it. Do you think we would have grabbed a cup of coffee and had that deep conversation had we not been talking about this for the last year and a half, two years?

I don't think so, Sean.

Yeah, I don't think so either.

And you know what this is. This is not only. It's not only proving the normalizing, it's proving something that you have said from day one, over and over again, which is that it connects us. Sorrow connects us. Loss connects us. Grief connects us. And that I think, because you and I have had that conversation, that there was. There was a trust, right? There was a trust that you weren't gonna like. I think I said this to you yesterday when you showed up. I was like, you're okay with me bursting into tears right now, aren't you? And you were like, yeah, yeah, I brought some cleaners. I don't even know what you said, but I was sort of like, yeah, of course. That's. You know. And how important is this again? Anyone listening now or later? How important is it really to start to have conversations when we're not in grief or when our friends aren't in grief? So we can just start to. I mean, maybe we don't know, but at least we can start to talk about it. Hey, what do you. What do you think you might need if you know. Yeah.

And bouncing off of that. I think part of what we're saying, too, is sometimes you need to prepare for that moment.

Yes.

I think personal development, like coaching, is kind of preparing for that moment right now. If you aren't experiencing grief, what would you think you would need when it comes up? And how can you set up that support system? For yourself to be able to say, this is what I need. When you're probably at your most fraught and at the edge of your ability to function.

Yes. Oh, I love this. And I love. So this is something too, right? That it's like through these conversations, I think we've both been learning more. Like something new usually drops in for us. Like. Oh, yeah, that. That is a really interesting. In the same way, I'm going to sort of shamelessly promote my upcoming book, but. But only because I think it's relevant. But. So I have an end of life planner coming out and a big, big, big message that I have for people is like, you know, plan your good death. It may not turn out that way. Just like with. I mean, you know, I planned a. I had a whole home birth plan and, you know, some of it worked and some of it didn't. I wanted a hot tub. We never got the hot tub, but up and running, but, you know, so some of it works and some of it doesn't. But in planning and sharing with people, there's more of a chance that like, you know, so it's like the same thing. Like with End of Life, it's like, you know, think about. I mean, I have a whole playlist of music, which I know you love music. I have a whole playlist of music that if I'm lucky enough to sort of know that my end is coming and I have the time that I could listen to music that tell stories to me about my life, that's one example that's not gonna just happen. You know, we have to plan that. And I personally think that would be super comforting to me.

Yeah. Yeah, I like that idea. I think. I often think about the song I'd like to play at my funeral. It's weird. I never really articulated that or I haven't like said this out loud to anyone. So it's a hot scoop for our live.

But you want to share the song or do you want. Is it private?

It kind of changes. I don't think I've settled on one quite yet. Which maybe. Yeah, I'd have to remember some of the ones I've thought up of.

Yeah. But yeah, you can share with me another time. But I want to. I know we have to go in just a couple minutes, but I kind of want to share. I have a candle going behind me and I told you I might want to. About it and I want to. I want to offer a nod to. To my dear friend Sonia Jean, who this. This is her. This was a ritual that came from her and her mom. So Sonia Jean took care of her mom for a long time when her mom was in the dying process. And one of the. The stories that Sonia told me once was, this is called a Woodwick candle. It doesn't really matter. We're not sponsored by. Sponsored by them or anything, but they make a little sound like a fire, which is kind of sweet. Anyway, she and her mom both loved candles, and they had a ritual where when her mom wasn't, you know, in. As.

As.

As hospice or in that bad, but when she was just, like, you know, first getting ill, Sonia would send her mom the same candle that she would buy for herself, and they would text each other and say, like, oh, I'm like, I'm lighting my candle. Now light yours. So that it would connect to them, you know? And she and I were talking true. There's an energy in candles. I think there's sort of the flickering. It feels alive in a certain way. And. And I thought that was so beautiful. That sort of, I'm gonna send you this, and we'll share the love, you know? And she ended up sending me two candles right after that conversation so I could send my mom one.

Oh, wow.

And so my mom and I then. So I would say, like, hey, I'm lighting my candle. And then it has continued over the years for me, and I'm particularly connected to mothers. There's actually a person in our community who lost his mom when he was very young, and he recently got his PhD, and I thought, oh, he doesn't have a mom to celebrate that. So I sent him the candle, and I bought one, and I told him the story. And I've been finding this to be, like, a very comforting ritual, that it doesn't have to be a mom. Right. It could be anybody in our lives, but it can also be for someone who has passed away. So I just sent one to this other person who's deeply grieving the loss of a mom and said, I have one here. We could light them at the same time. We don't have to, but I just wanted to offer that to people. And again, thank you, Sonia Jean, because it's a way to. To your point, sometimes people don't necessarily. They're not in the place to be with you, but it's a way to be with them when you're not really, like, there.

Yeah. Yeah. I love. I love that part of it, and I love the. There's kind of like a second habit then, because I know Ashley will light a candle for her grandmother. And it's almost like, hey, I'm gonna think of you. I'm gonna light this candle. You send a message. Hey, you can light the candle, too. And then if they're not there, actually, it's still that kind of connective.

Yeah.

Like that. I really like that. That's beautiful.

Yeah. It can work in a lot of different ways, right? Like, I mean, it can. Yeah. And I, again, I've just been so grateful to her. And it's one of those things that has grown in my life. Like, I, you know, I've done it multiple times now. Especially though the reason I brought it up right now, I've done it especially when someone is grieving someone. Like, I'll just say, I have the candle here. I'm lighting it for that person you love, you know, here's one for you, you know, and it's. Yeah, it's just a shared. It's just yet one. Another way to. To grieve together. So.

Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah. That shared experience, even if you're not physically there. It's a physically. That's.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So thank you for letting me share that. And anything else, like, coming to your mind before we go? I know we just have a couple minutes, but if there's anything else that you feel like, needs to be said about grief.

Oh, I think there's way more to be said about it than we have to. Like, I don't think we're going to cover anything. We could start something and we wouldn't be able to finish it before we had to bounce. I know we wanted to talk about piggyback grief.

Yes.

And so maybe we can do that on our next call. We'll just carry that over. I know. Amberine, I'm sorry you missed it.

Hello. Hello, Ambreen. Good to see you. Yes. Well, let's do that. Let's talk about piggyback grief. And also, I can't remember, but I'm. I've also been talking a lot about anticipatory grief in many, many different forms, which I think there's a whole world to talk about there, especially Alzheimer's and dementia, particularly. But.

Yeah. Okay.

Well, Sean, thank you so much. I. I just love your willingness to hop on and. And talk about these topics, and it just. It means the world to me. Thank you.

You're welcome. And thank you. I really do enjoy our talks. I always learn something new, and it's good to just, again, normalize this and have a cool conversation about something that people probably don't really like to talk about. I never really thought, like, there's. There is a certain, like, heebie jeebies with it, but.

All right, we'll leave it at that. And hopefully, hopefully, we can help, like, get some of those heebie jeebies out of the way. And. And I'm just grateful that I didn't burst into tears today. Like, that's my big, like, gratitude for the day. Like, you know, Although it'll be fine when it does happen, but. All right, Sean, I'll see you soon. Thank you.

You got it. True. You take care.

You, too. Bye. Bye.