#0255 – How to be a Leader not a Manager with Sonya Shelton

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An executive is a role. That's a title. Yes. And a leader is a behavior. Right? So anybody in an organization, regardless of title, could be a leader. And an executive doesn't necessarily mean they're a leader.

Hi, and welcome to Deep Leadership. I'm your host, John Rennie. Well, I hope all is well with you today. It is another beautiful day here in North Carolina, and this episode is brought to you by our sponsors, habitstack, Ignite Management Services, and Liberty Strength. These sponsors help me bring these shows to you each and every week, so I encourage you to click on their links below and check them out. Also, I want to encourage you to join us on our growing YouTube channel. Search for deep leadership on YouTube for videos of all my interviews and exclusive content. Well, that is it. Today we're going to be talking about how to be a leader and not just a manager. And my guest is Sonya Shelton. Sonya is the author of the number one Amazon best selling book, you're an executive, but are you a leader? In this conversation, she breaks down the difference between a manager and a leader. If you've been wondering how to make the shift to become a true leader in your organization, this is your episode. So are you ready to dive in? Let's get started.

Welcome to Deep Leadership. Leadership is a people business. That's the philosophy of your podcast host, John Rennie. As a former Cold War submarine officer who spent 20 plus years leading businesses in corporate America before starting his own manufacturing business, he knows that leadership matters. Are you ready for some real world, actionable advice from John as well as his expert guests?

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Welcome to the Deep Leadership podcast. Today I'm joined by Sonia Shelton. Sonia is the CEO of Executive Leadership Consulting. She founded this company in 2007 with a passion for partnering with leaders and high achievers to create a clear vision and build work environments where employees are fulfilled and completely committed to their organization's success. She is the author of the number one Amazon best selling book youk're an Executive, But Are youe a Leader? The Executive Simple Guide to Creating, Communicating and Achieving the Vision. In this book, Sonia helps readers understand the hidden practices that allow leaders to move people to action, ignite their passions, and inspire them to do better. I'm excited to have her on the show to learn from her experiences. So, Sonia, welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me. I'm excited for our conversation.

It is so nice to meet you and I'm excited to talk about what is a leader, what makes a leader. And just to get your perspective on all this, before we dive into the book and dive into the work that you do, tell us a little bit about what you do at Executive Leadership Consulting. Why do clients seek you out? What's your specialty?

We work with organizations and leaders at connecting their business strategy with their organizational culture. So leadership is a big part of that. But culture has a lot of different dimensions. So we start with purpose and then connect that purpose through everything that they do as a company and then ultimately create a passionate culture.

I like this. I can tell we're gonna have a fun conversation. So culture is interesting. Tell us a little bit about what, what culture means from, from, from your perspective and, and how you about culture.

Yeah, so I think that culture has a lot of misconceptions, right? So. So we say culture is everything that you do in an organization. Right? So starting with your strategy, there's that famous quote, culture eats strategy for breakfast. And we say, no, they, that doesn't, we disagree with that. They actually need to have breakfast together. And your strategy also contributes to your culture. Right? So, so what your goals are, what your vision is, your priorities, that all connects to your culture, your processes, how you decide who you're going to hire, how you decide who you're going to promote, how you're structured, how decisions are made. All of those things contribute to the culture. Right? So it's not. I think some people think, oh, we're going to improve the culture, we're going to add some perks, we're going to get people together and have social time and, and all of those things matter and they do help, but they're not going to shift a culture. Right. So it's going to contribute to it, but it's not going to shift it. You have to look at every dimension of the Organization to shift the culture.

That makes a lot of sense. Now. What type of companies are you working with? Are these smaller companies? Bigger companies, mid size? Are all the above?

All of the above. We've, we've worked with all sizes, different industries, different geographical locations. We're really about, our sweet spot is about fast growing companies. So companies who really, they need to be able to have everybody on the same page really quickly or they're not going to be able to continue to grow as fast as they are. Or sometimes we've seen growth actually destroy companies if they're growing too fast and they don't have everything in place and that alignment in place to withstand that growth.

I, you know, from experience I can tell you I tripled the size of a business once and that was the hardest thing I've ever done. And you would think that's growth is easy, but it's not. And one of the biggest challenges was culture was to, with the new people joining the organization is to keep the culture that made us special, that made us grow, keep that alive. That was the biggest challenge. Growth sweet. People who probably listening and you're like, no, growth is easy. It's harder when you're, when maybe you have to turn a business around. Well, I've turned many businesses around and I think it's easier to turn a business around than it is to grow. I really, that was a, that was one of the hardest things I've ever done. So it's interesting that you've honed in on fast growing companies because that is a major leadership challenge.

And I think sometimes leaders or executives don't think about that. Right. Like as you're growing, the people who are in place, leading the company, you know, in manager positions and director positions, they're as, as they're bringing in more people. Their leadership needs to evolve, right. And, and they need to do, and they need to do it fast, right. So they don't have a lot of development time. So we can help, you know, look at how do you, you know, how do you grow those people into the next level of leadership that they need to be operating with? But then also looking at how do you keep all the things that made you, you, you know, connecting, staying connected to your purpose and making sure people understand, you know, what's the plan and are these the right processes based on where we're going, you know, looking at all of those dimensions to make sure that, that you're, you're maintaining that culture. We worked with an organization a number of years ago where they had A really strong, really strong culture as a startup. And then they grew up into sort of more of a mid sized company, about $500 million. And they brought in a whole new executive team because that's what's required to get them to the next level. They want to become a billion dollar company requires different types of leaders. And they brought those people in and really just killed the culture. And, and you know, you bring in all of these corporate executives from big companies and, and they weren't aligned to what the company stood for and they didn't have that same heart that the teams had. Right. And it was. So we came in and sort of helped them turn that around and get back to who they were and their purpose and be able to align to keep, to keep growing, but also, and put those structures in place, but to also remember who they are.

Yeah. There's a term called founder's intent. You know, what were the founders of this company? What did they intend to do? You know, and sometimes it gets lost. As the company grows, more people come in, they come from the outside, they have a different way of seeing things. And it's like you got to kind of go back to that. What was the intent when we founded this company? Yeah, yeah. It's easy when you're small because the founder's still there. Like in my company, I'm the founder, I'm still there. What's the intent? Well, just let's go ask John. He's right over there. Right. But when you go, or when the, you know, when there's six layers between me and, you know, the worker on the shop floor and me, it's hard to be able to have that conversation. So yeah, it's definitely a hard thing that you lose that, that sense of who we are as you get bigger. For sure. Yeah, yeah, that's. Go ahead.

I had, I had the privilege of working for the Walt Disney Company before I started executive leadership consulting. So I've really seen the best of the best in maintaining that. Right. The legacy of, well, what Walt Disney was trying to do, what he wanted the company to do, and how long the company was able to sustain that even after his passing. Right. And just really learn from the best of the best on how to do that.

Yeah, that's a great, great, powerful example of founders intent staying for generation. Well, that's a generation, but certainly for decades for sure. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So what are some of the trends, the workplace trends that you're seeing today?

You know, I think we're kind of in an interesting time John, when we're post pandemic, we're in a time of uncertainty like we've never seen before, right? We, there's a lot of uncertainty about the economy, uncertainty about the pace of change that we're, we're changing things so fast. Every industry that we work with, from nonprofits to tech. Right. Doesn't matter. Everything and everything in between, they're have, they're experiencing more change than they've ever experienced. And there was a number of years ago there was a IBM executive who said we've, we've never seen the pace of change this fast and we'll never see it this slow again.

That's it. That's it.

Right?

Yeah.

And, and he was absolutely right. I think that was like four or five years ago that he said that and it's absolutely been true. And, and so I think what we're seeing in the workplace is a real need for clarity and alignment and a connection to purpose. Because what we're also seeing is a big increase in burnout. And so when we've done a lot of research, and this concerns me quite a bit, that I think there's almost 80% of employees say that they're experiencing some kind of burnout at work. That's serious. Right. So, so really helping organizations to understand how to deal with that burnout, how to prevent that burnout. And a lot of it is, is simple, easy, where is really connecting to, to what is your purpose as an organization, like we were saying, but also providing a lot of clarity. That doesn't mean that we can get through the uncertainty. You know, we work, we work with companies on strategic planning and we used to do strategic plans that were three years out. Yeah, yeah, we really, I mean, we can make us something up about what things going to look like three years from now. But most industries, we can't, we can't predict where we're going to be three years from now. Right. So. But we can have areas of focus that are going to grow us toward our vision and connect to our purpose. So really having that connection to purpose for every single person in the organization and the clarity of where we're going is going to help to navigate the uncertainty and also empower them to say this is connected to our purpose or it isn't or this isn't really where we're going. And so I can raise up those areas that maybe processes need to change based on where we're going because that maybe that's what we used to do in the past, but it's not Going to get us where we want to go next.

Yeah, that's a, that's a really, it's really. You've. You've hit on some really important things that I see as well, too. You know, it's funny because I, you know, I was. Took a. Took a course on leading change recently, and, you know, John Cotter's got the stage gate model of how to. How to. How to change an organization. And it's like, that's great if you're doing one change initiative. And what I found in my corporate life is like, I was doing like eight different change initiatives at any point in time. And that was before, you know, this is before the past five years of, as you say, so much uncertainty, so much, you know, just. Just things are changing, evolving at a faster and faster pace to the point where there is no. There is no defined projects. Like, you have to deal with all the change all the time. And one of the things I've been thinking about is this idea of we need to build resiliency in our organization so that we can be able to handle whatever comes at us. You know, like Navy SEAL teams are trained, for example, in how to execute no matter what happens, right? So they're trained to be innovative and to work together to solve problems and to accomplish the mission regardless of what comes at them. And I think this idea of being resilient is something I've been thinking a lot about, is like, how do we build organizations that are, that are more resilient because burnout. You mentioned burnout and stress and all that, that takes you out of the game, right? So when an employee is stressed out and they're burnt out. So just like that Navy SEAL team, we've taken one of the, one of the operators out of the equation. And so then you can't perform at your top level. So how do we build resiliency? And one of the ways that you mentioned it's really important is what's our common purpose? What's our goal? What's our North Star, what's our mission? Because sometimes we get confused with, I've got eight projects, and now I got Covid and supply chain. I got inflation, I got a war in Europe, I got a war in Israel. And it's like, ah, so I think you're right that we were overwhelmed. So I think part of the job of the leader is to slow down. This is what we're here for. This is our purpose. This is what we need to do and get people back on the right page is that what you see as well too.

Yes, absolutely. I think, and I love how you connected the SEAL team mission to the purpose. That's exactly what I say. Right. Like they, they really have a strong mission. And when we have that, we know why we're doing what we're doing. We can get through any how. Right. So, so the, the, you know, and I, and I use examples just from our personal lives. Right. Like we're for moving to a new house if we're getting married, having a child. Right. Like that all those things are massively changing our lives, whatever, any of those three things. But we're so excited about it. Right. And we, we. Because we know why we're doing it. There's a purpose behind it. And we're so passionate about that, that all of the challenges and stress that comes along with it, we just get through it. Right. Because we can see the end goal and we, we have that, that we're really clear about why we're doing what we're doing. Right. And I think for organizations to have that same connection to the purpose, so you put purpose and clarity together, then that's. That creates passion and then passion. We can get through challenges when we have passion where we want to break those challenges. Like you were saying for the SEAL teams, they're passionate about what they're doing.

Yeah.

And, and the, and it's just, you know, they almost embrace the challenges because mission is so important and organizations may think, well, we're not doing the same level of thing as a SEAL team, but actually when you connect to your purpose that way, you are.

Yeah. Yeah. You are. Absolutely. It's your purpose. It's your mission. It's. Sure. And again, I often say this, that leadership is about motivating a group of people to get something done. And I found my time in corporate was we weren't doing any of those three. We weren't motivating people towards a goal. We were doing everything else. We were putting in new HR systems and new rpm ERP systems. We were, you know, getting certified in some external, you know, credit. We were. And I was like, we, we need to get back to motivating people to accomplish the goal. What is the goal? Communicate the goal. Here's what we need to do. Here's what, you know, here's what you. Everyone, you know, everyone's part of this mission. And we need each of you, you know, being strong in your field of expertise to help us achieve the mission. That's what we get. But we get lost, and we get lost in all this stuff. So I think clarity, like you say, is really important.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think understanding what motivates people. Right. So it's not going to be the same for every person. Yeah. So how do you connect what motivates them and what drives them and their personal why to the company? Why? Right. So that's. That's one aspect. And then understanding, you know, are they passionate. They might be passionate about the purpose, but are they passionate about their role in it? Do they even understand their role in it and their importance of their role in it to be passionate about it? Right. So. So it requires both. It's not just the purpose of the company, but also working at the individual level. What. What drives that person, what's their why? And then how do you connect that to the company so that they're fulfilled in what they do and they're connected and then they'll do anything for you. Right. Because that's. They're. They're more interesting. Right.

Yeah. I'll tell you a little story that ties into it. I took over a manufacturing plant that was making. We were making circuit breakers, and we're. And I remember when I first started going on the shop floor, talking to operators, I asked them what they did, and they said, well, I paint this part, I plate this part, I machine this part, I assemble these parts. And I was like, what do those parts do? And they said, well, I don't know. It's some sort of a mechanism. And so they didn't really know what they were doing. And, you know, I was talking with the leadership team. I was like, I think our employees, they. They're good at what they do, but they don't know what they're doing and how it connects to the greater purpose. And so we spent a lot of time thinking about how do we communicate that? And one of the things that we came up with was that we help keep the lights on. That was the message that we gave. And it was then we. Then I started talking about it in all employee meetings. Like. Like, you know, we keep the lights on for hospitals and supermarkets, in schools where your kids go to school. And. And we started talking about the importance of what we do and why, how it helps society. And it was almost like overnight a light bulb, a light switch was flicked, and everybody was like, oh, I help keep the lights on. I don't just plate or paint or I'm keeping the lights on. And it was almost like, you can go home. Your employees could go home at night and tell their family, what did you do? Today. Well, strangely enough, I helped keep the lights on. And I would tell them projects we're working on this airport and so we're supplying all the circuit breakers for this airport. So they'll say, well, the Denver airport has all like I built the product that's lighting the Denver airport. And it's like you're connecting them to the purpose. And it changed, it almost changed overnight. The culture and what people, how people looked at their jobs. I think that's an important thing to do.

Yeah, absolutely. And connecting the dots to how did the lights not turn on without this part you're building?

Yeah.

How did lights not turn on without this smoothing that you're doing? Right. Like the. Each piece all the way down to the granular level for manufacturing. Like you're talking about, without one thing, nothing works.

Yeah, yeah. Everyone's an important part of this, this mission. And I think that that was really an interesting thing to see because it was. It really changed the attitude almost overnight in that organization about what they were doing. It gave them a sense of purpose that they didn't necessarily have. They were good at what they did, but they didn't connect it to the greater purpose. And I think that helped out in that case.

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Terms and conditions apply. So I wanna talk about the book. Your book is called you'd're an Executive, But Are youe a Leader? I love the idea for that title. So. So the million dollar question. What's the difference between an executive and a leader?

Well, an executive is a role. That's a title.

Yes.

And a leader is a behavior. Right. So anybody in an organization, regardless of title, could be a leader. And an executive doesn't necessarily mean they're a leader. Right. And so I came up with the title to be provocative because at the executive level, I think sometimes we think, well, because I have this title, I have this title of CEO, therefore I'm a leader, because I have this title. And not necessarily right sometimes. And I've even seen it in organizations where in a time of change, for example, an executive is leading a change or driving a change, but is not necessarily acting like a leader through it, but being more directive and maybe operating through fear. And then leaders of the organization who don't have titles start to lead resistances. Right, Right.

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I. Before.

Yes, yes. Right. So. So it's, it's making sure, like you said, you know, how are you motivating people towards the goal? And I would say also empowering them to join the purpose. Right. Join the mission. And so it doesn't feel punitive, but feels more enrolling. And that's, that's where passion comes from. That's where inspiration comes from. When I see when organizations are, are going through A lot of stress. It's kind of like in the human body, right. When, when in the human body we're under stress, all of our energy goes to the limbs.

Yeah, yeah.

So that we can run or fight or freeze. Right. When an organization. Organizations, and I see this all the time when we're working with companies. Right. If they're, if they're under a lot of stress, there's a lot of busyness and lots of running around and lots of conversations and meetings and not a lot of traction. Right.

I was in a role like that once where all I was. I just went to meetings all the time and it was just high stress and meetings and I felt like a gerbil on a treadmill or whatever on a wheel. You know, I felt like I never. We're never getting anywhere. We're just having meetings all the time and running around, panicking and. Yeah, I'd been there. It's a terrible place to work when you're in that mode.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And. And there's research that's been done that, that the number one thing that people want from their job is to feel like they're well led and headed in the right direction. So. So we understand what we're doing here, we understand why we're doing it and we know where we're going. Right. That's what they want to know. And so. So I wrote the book specifically for leaders on helping them understand what's the difference between just having the title and actually leading an organization. And I includes 50 chapters. So 50 tips right around how to create one vision. One vision in one direction. So that. And also one voice. Right. So that. That we are all moving in the same direction and we're all on the same page and aligned to really accomplish what we're trying to accomplish. And then I put in, you know, my, my work with my clients is confidential, so I wasn't able to put actual names, but I created composites of different clients and companies and use them as, as case studies for each of the 50 tips. And, and then the coaching questions that I would. I would ask that client. Right. So it's really designed to be something for leaders who, who maybe can't have a coach yet or they. Where they. They can actually apply it. And it's like working with a coach. They it cover to cover or they can jump into wherever their challenges are and take it from there.

I like that. I like that. What do. Can you share maybe a little bit of a. Of a story of where maybe a company that kind of got, got, you know, got their vision. Right. Got their purpose. Right. And, and maybe made a shift or. Do you have any stories like that in the book?

Yes, absolutely. And, and more at the individual level. Right. So, so how does, how does a leader make that happen?

Yeah, I guess that's what I'm thinking of. Like, how do you do it when you're, you step in. Like, I've stepped into roles, I'm like, oh, shoot, this is just pure chaos here. And I've got to some, somehow you know, wrangle everybody in one direction. So I'm curious, how do you do it?

Yeah. So it all starts with you, right? So we, we work in concentric circles. So starting with the individual leader. What's your personal why? What's your style? What's your vision for yourself and what you're trying to accomplish here?

I love this.

Right. Because that's going to drive. That's going to keep you motivated when things are hard. And they will be. Right. And then looking out at the team for the leadership team, what's their. Why are they aligned to the vision? Are they aligned to the strategy? Are they clear about roles and responsibilities? And are they aligned to those? Right. Are they aligned to the values, like every aspect of the culture? Are they, do they trust each other? Right. We work with a leadership team because you can't really create a culture shift without shifting the leadership team. Otherwise you have silos happening and resistance, like I said. Right. So if you don't, if you don't have that alignment within the leadership team, then you could go out to the organization and say, okay, so now how do we make sure that everybody understands the vision? Is the whole organization clear about it? Do they, do they understand what our purpose is? Do they know their role in it? Are they empowered to question processes and look for continuous improvement? Do they understand how decisions are made? Do they, do we know how and why we're hiring people, how and why we're promoting people? And do they trust the organization? So not only do they trust each other, but do they trust the organization?

Yeah, all those things are, they're, they're, they're essential, but they're, they're tough to do. I mean, it's, it's a lot of work to do that. And, and I think. But as you say, the leaders do that. That's what they do. They come in and sort of, I would say, I know this may sound weird, but we, we bring order to chaos. Like, when we come in, like, and I come into a business a Lot of times I'm like, oh, shoot. Like, I. There's a lot of things out of control here. And so, like, how do you bring everything into some sort of an order where it all makes sense? Because a lot of times. A lot of times when I come into a business, it's been let go. And so I was always the turnaround guy. So I was always the guy coming in like, okay, what do I need to do here? You know, like, what are the big issues? Where are the people problems? Where are the process problems? Where's the market problems? Where's our product? You know, all these things I'm thinking about. But. But once you have that, then you say. I think what you're saying is that alignment is critical. And like, just from my experience, when you have alignment, there's a less noise in the system. Everybody's sort of working on the same things at the same time. And there's less. Less, there's. I would call, task conflict. So you're trying to find the best ways to do it, but the interpersonal conflict goes away because you're kind of like you say, you build trust, you're working towards a common goal, and you're less of that interpersonal conflict and more about, let's get the job done. So, yeah, alignment really does take some of the noise out of the system and makes things a little easier to do as a leader. Once you have sort of alignment, things are moving and you're not having to manage every little piece. So things manage on their own once you have that. Right. So, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah.

And it's not about not having conflict at all. Right. I think what you're talking about is more like personalities. Right, Right. So it's not about not have. But we can have conflict in ideas.

Yes.

Right. So. So how do we debate to make things better? How do we look for innovation and challenge each other to make things better? Can absolutely be part of the culture in a very healthy and constructive way. And that. That was one of the things that I learned from Walt Disney. Whenever he would have two people that didn't get along, he would immediately put them on a project together. And he. He said, that's because. That's because that's where the magic happens. Right. They're coming. They see the world very differently. They're coming at it from different places, and then they create a third thing. That is amazing. Right. So. So, so it really is. There's alignment towards the purpose and the vision, but then how we get there, we can Debate and come up with the best ideas.

I love that. So one of the things I saw that I didn't know, so I was gonna ask you, Red Thread leadership, what is Red Thread leadership?

So Red Thread leadership is our model at executive leadership, consulting on creating a culture. So it has five P's. I think I've mentioned them all, but maybe not in order. Right. So the first P is purpose. So starting with, you know, what's your purpose as an organization? Why do you do what you do at the individual level, at the team level, at the company level? And then from there we look at your plan. So what's your vision? What's your strategy? What's your goals? And then the third P is process. Right. So do we have the right processes in place to be able to achieve our strategy and goals? And then the fourth one is positions, which is how are we structured, how are decisions made, how are we organized? And how do we decide who to hire and when? And how do we decide who to promote and when? And then the fifth P is what is passion, which is our word for culture because we believe that cultures can be, can be passionate. And that's where we really look at, you know, what do you stand for? Building trust. How do you work together in creating that alignment towards the purpose?

I love it. Yeah, I understand, I understand. Red Thread leadership. I never heard of it before, but it makes a lot of sense. And I was just talking about that. Coming into a business, I think about these things because I notice, like I said, when things are unaligned and the business is doing poor and I get brought in to turn it around, these are the things I'm thinking about and these are the things I'm trying to get my hands around because, yeah, it's like, okay, I've got to bring this into something that makes sense and sometimes it's hard to do. And one of the things I, I talk about in my books is I, one of the things I do is I spend as many times much like time I can with each individual in the entire organization having a one on one interview. And I always say, you know, what's working well here? What, what needs to change? And if you're in my shoes, what would you do first? Those three questions. And I end up getting like, if I, if I interview 170 people or 200 people, I end up getting like some real themes that I can work on. Like, oh shoot, this is what everyone thinks is broken. So this is maybe where I should spend some time. And this is where you Know where it's working pretty good. Maybe I don't need to spend a lot of time there. So it's really helpful talking to the team and getting to understand where they think we are in these, you know, these five p's, because I think that's important too, is to, is to not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Some people, some leaders come in and they say, well, they throw it out. They're like, we're going to go my way. It's like, well, wait, wait, we have something. You know, maybe it's not all working right, but there's some good threads in here that we have to sort of keep, you know, and I think that's, that's part of it as well. But I really like this, this process for sure.

Yeah. And it's also keeping it going. Right. So I love your process. That's exactly what we do with new executives coming into a role is we invite them to do exactly what you just said.

Yeah.

Then continuing it. Right. So once you have those, those changes in place and you're turning things around, how are you continuing to circle back and make sure that you're getting input along the way? Because when you're leading a company, you can't know everything, right. And, and even your leadership team can't know everything, right? So being able to just touch base with people along the way. And so how are things going? What do you see now? Right, Just on a, on a, not an everyday basis, but maybe you don't word earlier a couple times a year you have, you cycle through every person then as well.

I love that. I love that. Sonia, what final message would you like to leave with our listeners?

So I would say, you know, just connect to your why, you know, for, for us, we agree with Simon Sinek to start with why and making sure that whether you're connecting to the why of your company, which would be your purpose or the why of a change or a decision that you're making, just always come back to starting with why. Why are we doing this? And that's how you get people aligned.

Wow. Fantastic listeners. I hope you heard that. Connect with your why. Do you know what your why is? Do you know what your organization's why is? Do you know what your leadership team's why is? And if you don't know, that might be a good place to get started. So very good. How can listeners find out more about you, this book and all the services you provide?

So everything One Stop Shop is at our website, which is executiveleader.com we have a lot of free resources on there. We have recorded webinars, the book is on there and how you can get to the book. Hundreds of blog articles on thought leadership and that's where we keep up with sharing the latest research. There's a webinar on the red thread leadership model as well. That's free. People can go on there and understand, you know, how, how, how to do it. Companies that have done it well and, and they can execute from there.

Fantastic. We'll put a link in the show notes for that. And again, listener, did you hear what she said? It's free. So there is free information out there that will help you get better and you can get the book and it may be just a little bit of money, but get the book as well and you're going to get deeper into these, these topics and really understand these 50 topics in a lot deeper level and also hear those stories from companies that have done it and the success that they've had or what they learned through that process. So absolutely, get the book, the links in the show notes. I highly encourage you to go out there, learn from the people that have been there and done that. Don't try to reinvent the wheel. Sonia's got some great resources on her website. Go there, get it, get the book, and you're going to be a better leader because of it. Sonia, I really appreciate you coming on the show. Thanks for sharing all this information. This has been fantastic and I know it's going to help all of our listeners.

Thank you so much for inviting me. I enjoyed our conversation.

Absolutely. I enjoyed it as well. Well, that's it for today. Thank you for listening to Deep Leadership. If you like this podcast, please subscribe and share so we can continue to build a world with better bosses. Until next time, this is John Rennie saying take care and lead. Well.

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