Ep. #84 | Are You a Leader? - Sonya Shelton (Executive Leadership Consulting)

Hello and welcome to the Open Talent Report. This is the podcast where we discuss the emerging trends in labor law, employment law, independent work and the gig economy which many organizations are wrestling with due to the growth of the open talent and gig economy. I'm your host, Conor Heaney. When I'm not presenting the podcast, I'm the MD at CXC Global emea, which compliantly connects talent and opportunity.

What was that? Was that?

Hello and welcome to this week's show where I'm delighted to be joined by Sonia Shelton. Sonia Shelton founded Executive Leadership Consulting from her passion for partnering with leaders to align their business strategy and their organizational culture. She's captured her leadership tips and success stories in her number one Amazon best selling book, you're an executive, but are you a leader? And Sonia, I think this is the first time we've had a number one Amazon best selling book author on our show and we've had some incredible authors of course on the show before and we're really, really keen to hear your story, of course. But Sonia has been an executive as well as a consultant and she brings best practices from successful startups to Fortune 100 companies around the world. She's worked with Disney, Nestle, AECOM and Microsoft and she has more than 25 years experience as an executive in a variety of industries. Sonia has seen time and time again that leadership means creating alignment. Her philosophy, background and experience add a strategic, practical and multidimensional approach to executive leadership consulting. However, this isn't just there. The Sonja's Introduction Sonja has founded three profitable companies and previously served as Head of Global Employee Communications at the Walt Disney Company. Sonja is a recognized thought leader, an international speaker and a contributing writer for the Forbes Coaching Council. Sonia has a Bachelor of Arts in Magazine Journalism from California State University, Long beach, and a Master's of Science in Organizational Development from Pepperdine University and has been certified in evidence based Coaching from Fielding Graduate University. So Sonia, you got quite the list of accomplishments here. I'm really, really excited and I'm sure our audience are to hear your story. How are you doing today, Sonia? I appreciate it. Certainly where you are.

Yes, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm doing great.

Well, Sonia, this is how we like to start off the podcast. So it's really great to have you on. So Sean, I know I've given the pop quiz history of you, but would you mind just sharing for the benefit of our audience how you became the founder of Executive Leadership Consulting? What was your journey to get to that path and would love to hear your story about working in organizations such as Walt Disney, AECOM, Disney, Nestle, etc. So over to you, Sonia. Thank you.

Yes, absolutely. So I had kind of an eclectic career path. I started my. My journey, as you mentioned, my bachelor's degree was in magazine journalism. And that's where I started my career was in. Was in journalism. And then I sort of moved into marketing and advertising, doing copywriting and marketing strategy. And then I was approached by. By the Walt Disney company, as you mentioned, to lead their internal communications team. So I was the head of employee communications for Disney Worldwide. And so I had this unique perspective of having both journalism and sort of advertising merging together in internal communications. And I just saw how they connected. So even though on my resume it looks a bit weird, I saw the connection between the two. And I was at Disney at a time when nobody in my position had experienced what I experienced, and nobody in that position will ever experience it again. And that was. I was there when we had a member of the Disney family, Roy Disney, leading a shareholder revolt against our CEO at the time, Michael Eisner.

Wow.

So I had imagine, like working for this company that's known for its incredible culture and then basically going through what felt like a corporate divorce. Right. And.

Wow.

So it was then became not the best culture to work in. And it was an experience where it impacted my own leadership and how I showed up with my team being in that environment and. And I just. And also seeing the impact on the culture. Right. So. So I developed this awareness and empathy for. For leaders going through challenging times for. For what leaders have to go through, and also the importance of culture. And I realized that. That I could have a bigger impact if I helped other companies with these issues. And so what we do at Executive Leadership Consulting is really help companies to connect their business strategy and their culture in a way that makes it a fulfilling place to work, but at the same time a successful business.

I love it. Sonia, if we may, I'd love to unpack that Disney experience, if you're comfortable speaking about it and not preaching any covenants or NDAs. But as we know, that famous phrase, I think from Drucker, that the culture eats strategy for breakfast. It's often repeated. Some companies believe it, some don't. But you speak about Sonja, that amazing culture that Disney had, what blew that up? And if we could look at that in a bit more detail. So I suppose what were the catalysts for blowing that up? And was the culture not strong enough to deal with with those series of events. So really, I'd love to unpack that and get your view on how an organization might prevent that happening in the future.

Yeah, I'm not sure how you. How you could prevent it in a situation, in a challenge that difficult. Right. Where I don't know that many companies would have that strength of somebody from the Disney family connected to the founder, really beloved, and at the same time the leader of our company, basically at odds. And what was great for me in that experience on the other side of it was seeing how I really can help my clients through big challenges because most of them aren't facing anything that hard.

Yes.

But going back to back, going back to your question, I think that, that Peter Drucker quote, I actually am one of the people that don't believe that and not in the way that you think. So it's not that I think strategy is more important, but I don't believe that culture eats strategy for breakfast. I believe they actually have to have breakfast together. So it's those companies, and we've seen, I think, in the past decade or so, companies where they've leaned too far on the culture at the expense of the business. And then, of course, we see lots of evidence of culture of companies that lead too far over to the strategy side at the expense of the culture. And so I think what Disney went through was a bit of an identity crisis. Right. Which was, you know, do we. Do we follow what we're. What we're trying to do as a business and following Michael Eisner, or do we go with the legacy of Disney and following Roy Disney? And of course, you know, history shows that that shareholder revolt did happen and Bob Iger came in as our CEO and really changed. Change that dynamic of the culture of the company and really made it more about being an entertainment company and letting go, almost letting go of some of the legacy of the Disney magic that was there before.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, Sonia. And I agree with you on the culture eat strategy for breakfast space. I had a thought, Sonia. Many companies have things such as family in their values. Right. And that people often describe their organization that they work with and work for as a family. What's your read in that? Because I think that's quite a dangerous thing in some respects to have within an organization. Because ultimately, as much as you'd like to, you can't fire your. You can't fire your family, but you can't fire your team, which is not a position you want to be in, of course, but Sometimes you have to do that. So what's your read on that? When you go into an organization and they talk about a feeling like family, do you tend to discourage organizations from going down that path or do you say, well, it's okay, but here's the sort of way that we have to operate as a family?

Yeah. I think that is where this bridge between strategy and culture come in. And I think that, you know, Disney was one of them. When I first started working at Disney, people would talk about it like a family and being part of the Disney family. And I think there, just like you're saying, there is a danger in that because sometimes tough business decisions have to be made. Sometimes we have to reduce workforce and people are laid off. And like you said, you know, how. How does that land when you think that you're family now? Most people are mature enough to see that of course those things are going to happen. But I think it's making a promise that you can't live up to in your culture to say that we're going to be like a family. On the flip side, I think we can care about each other like family. Right. I think that we can have that, that connection, those deep relationships at work like we would in our family. And so there's a strength to it. But I think I completely agree with you. Using the word family can be a dangerous line.

Yeah, definitely. And, Sonia, we've had some other amazing authors on, on the show for the last couple of years. We've had the. The guys from the work style revolution, and we've had Julia Hobson that writes for Bloomberg and the Economist. But I'm keen for our audience, Sonja, to hear more about your number one Amazon bestselling book. Would you mind sharing, for the benefit of our audience, Sonia, the key principles from your book and how it might help some of the organizations that are going on a journey?

Yeah, absolutely. So when I started writing, you're an executive, but are you a leader? And the title being a bit provocative and challenging, I really took a step back and looked at my own connection. When I was an executive, I didn't have a lot of time to read. I didn't. I wanted things that were practical and not just theory. And so I really designed everything about the book to be about the reader and that leadership position. And you don't have to be an executive to get benefit from it. So it's. It's 50 different chapters. That sounds like a lot, but it's actually a very short book. Yes, and one. One. One piece of the chapter is what is the tip from how you can become a better leader? One part of the chapter is a case study of a compilation of clients that put that tip into action, what their challenge was and how they put it into action, and then the coaching questions that I would ask you to be able to develop that. And it's all designed around the model of starting yourself as a leader. You know, how do you. How do you lead yourself first? How do you create one vision in the company so that everyone is aligned and moving in the same direction? How do you create one voice around communications so that everybody is saying the same thing in their own voice, in their own way? So it's like a choir, but they're all in harmony. And then the third section is around creating that one direction, so having all of your activities, your systems, processes, culture, hiring practices, all connected to your vision and your end and your mission so that you can move in that same direction. And it's really about how do we get people, from a leadership perspective, aligned and connected so that you can create that beautiful culture and at the same time, a profitable business. And I've had people go through the book almost like a workbook in answering the coaching questions. And it's like they go through a.

Whole.

Series of coaching sessions with me, like 50 sessions without me being there. And so. So it's. It's really great. I love that. Right? And. And they. They can take that and they can apply it. You can read it cover to cover. You can dive into just one aspect that you're having challenges with and. And just focus on that piece.

Yeah, I. I think. I think as a. As an executive or as a leader or if. Or if you're lucky enough to be able to afford it, I think hiring a coach is one of the best things you can do. And I went on a bit of a journey myself, Sonia, about three years ago. I. I think it was approaching this time of year. So where are we? Nearly mid November now. And like all leaders, it was a pretty crazy year. You know, you're really amping it up. You're operating on max and you're getting to the end of the year where you're probably been on, you know, 200 flights, 200 different hotels, and you're thinking, oh, my God, can I push it on? Push on for another 68 weeks, coming up to that Thanksgiving or Christmas time. But I think coaching and getting a good coaches can be transformational. And it's actually helped me develop significantly as a business leader, and it really helped me to delegate before I probably would have been quite a control freak and thinking everything, every decision had to go through me. And of course that's not really sustainable or indeed, I would argue scalable. And my question really for you, Sonia, is, is there any commonalities when an executive or leadership or leadership team come to you? Like what, what is the typical thing that, that an executive or leadership struggles with in your experience and how can you help them?

Yeah, I don't, I don't, I think there are some common themes, but every, every executive or leader or team has their own unique challenges based on the dynamics that they're in. And I, and I love what you said about, about having that person from the outside, you know, for that coach from the outside being able to help you see what you might not have seen. And that's, that's really what we do in coaching is, you know, I say, you know, a fish can't see its own water. So sometimes like what I went, what I went through at Disney, it was my team that actually gave me the feedback that, about how I was showing up. I had sort of fallen into what was happening in the organization and all of the politics and things like that. And then it was my team that pointed out like, hey, you've changed, right? And so you need that outside perspective to show, to reflect to you what, what you're really doing and, and also to help you get to where you want to go. Right. So, so whether that's where you want to go as a leader within your own personal development or your career trajectory, or whether that's what you're trying to get your, the direction you're trying to get your team to go or the vision you're trying to set. So we, we work with them on, on all of those things. What I, I would say, you know, we're where is on their why. So we agree with Simon Sinek that we should start with why. And so whether we're working with an individual or a team or a company, we start with why and what is your purpose and what is the unique thing that you bring as an individual, as a team, as a company that people can count on you for?

Yeah, I love that. And Sonia, I've had a number of CEOs and senior business leaders on the podcast over the last two years and I would just thinking back around 80% now, this is a rough approximation estimate have spoken about imposter syndrome and imposter syndrome, particularly in the context of being a first time CEO or senior leader, is that is that something you get a lot of interest and conversation in or do you think that's just a popular thing to say these days?

No, I think it's a real thing. I think it's just that more people are being transparent about it now. So one of the things that happens when you step into a leadership role, whether it's a first time manager or stepping into that CEO role, is that you become, you become on this pedestal whether you like it or not, right? People are looking to you for setting the example, for setting the tone. And when I work with my clients, I use this metaphor that it's like paparazzi are following them around and they're watching everything that they do. And if they do something that's out of alignment from what they say, they tell everybody, right? So I had an example of this where there was a CEO and one of my, one of my clients where he was really passionate about safety. He worked for a manufacturing company and the company that he worked with before they had somebody had a major accident in the factory and he said, never again on my watch. And so when he came to this new company, he, he was really focused on safety and to the extreme, like, you can't walk with a coffee cup without a lid. You can't walk with your cell phone, you know, and, and it was really part of what he was trying to instill into the culture. Now I was in their office building right around lunchtime and I wasn't in their, their cafeteria when they had lunch when this happened. But he came down and he got a cup of soup and he didn't put a lid on it and he went back to his office. Now imagine I'm not an employee there and I wasn't in the room, I wasn't in the cafeteria. It took 10 minutes for me to find out that what he'd done.

Wow.

And so, so it was really eye openening to me, like this idea of like everybody is watching. And I think leaders don't always respect that or, or take that into consideration. They're just living their lives, right? They're just going about their business not thinking about the fact that they're constantly on stage and, and everybody's always watching them. So, so I think that that also, you know, that also can contribute to imposter syndrome, right? When you feel that people are putting you above them, even though maybe you don't feel like you're above them, you know, you have a different job, but not necessarily above them. And then it's like, well, who am I? Or Am I worthy of this or am I going to be able to live up to these expectations, my own expectations, their expectations. So, yeah, I think imposter syndrome is a. Is a real thing and it is about just, you know, being aware of really focusing on your. Your purpose and your vision. Right. So, so what is it? What is your superpower that you're bringing to the company? Whatever your leadership position, and that's uniquely yours, and when. And so we help clients step into that. Right. So really step into that purpose of this is your superpower, and this is how you got here, and this is what makes you uniquely qualified for this position in this company at this moment. So now let's talk about what you're going to do with it. Right. And they can lean back on that superpower when they get into imposter syndrome as, yeah, I do have something to contribute. I am here for a reason and I'm connected to that purpose and it fulfills me.

Do you know what, Sonia? I think that what you've just said is probably some of the best advice that I've ever heard on the show. And that advice relates to any person in any level, in any organization. I think it's absolutely outstanding. So thank you very much for sharing that. And I love what you said, Sonia, about, you know, act as if the paparazzi are following you. It's such a. A great piece of advice along with the other things that you've said there. So, Sonia, thanks so much for sharing that with you with, with our audience, rather. But, Sonia, one of the things I was thinking about there as you were speaking was, and I wanted to talk later in the show around remote working and get your thoughts on it, but do you think it's possible to achieve balance between life and work life, and then in an era of remote work, has that become even more impossible?

Yeah. I actually believe that balance is the wrong word. I think balance sets us up for failure.

Yes.

Because I don't think that it is possible to balance work, life, but we can have harmony. So I look at it like, like a, like an orchestra, right? Sometimes, yes. Sometimes it's violins that are louder. Sometimes it's the horns that are louder. Right. If we look at. Yes. They're going to be times where we need more energy and attention towards our life, our family, our friends. There are things that happen in life where we need to put more focus there and less on work. And then there are times when we need to focus more on work and our personal life is taking. Is diminished. Right. And it's if we, if we try to create harmony between them as opposed to trying to create balance, I think, I think then it becomes more fulfilling and you recognize that it's temporary. And I think that brings up something that I'm really passionate about right now, Connor, which is burnout.

Yes.

And in the US particularly, we're seeing a tremendous increase in burnout in the workforce. And I'm seeing research in other countries that, that's the case as well. And I think where you're talking about, you know, with what happened with COVID and the shutdown and people moving home and trying to navigate the, what's happening in the world, work, home. Right. Like all of these things were sort of all hitting at once. And I don't know while it's changed, I don't know that that has slowed down. And we still have a tremendous amount of uncertainty about the future and what's happening with economic conditions, what's happening with the state of the world. And at the same time we have this speed of technology and, and things moving so fast that we really can't predict the future the way we used to think we could. Right. So on the strategy side, you know, we used to do three year plans with companies and things like that. And, and we don't do that anymore because, because I say really we have no idea what things are going to be like in three years. So this is just an exercise that's not a good use of time. And I, and I. But I think that that's sort of those two things that uncertainty and the speed of change are creating this burnout with people where they don't really, they don't really see a destination anymore. And so they're just running really fast on a treadmill and feel like they're not getting anywhere. And so I think it's really important to have these dimensions of creating purpose in your organization, creating purpose in your team, creating purpose for yourself. Say why are we doing what we're doing? And bringing. That brings meaning to what you're doing and, and then as much clarity as you can about what you're trying to achieve now. And so those two dimensions are really where I'm trying to focus organizations to say, bring purpose and clarity to try to reduce the burnout and so that people can see they are achieving, they are making progress. We don't know where we're going three years from now, but we know what we're doing today and let's focus on that.

Yeah, I think that's again, absolutely to use a British and Irish phrase. Sonia, it's absolutely smashing advice because you're right, the pace of change in organizations in the world these days, it's almost exponential. It is exponential and sometimes it feels like the challenge and working at that pace is insurmountable. And I completely agree with what you've described there and the advice that you provided. And I think if you can almost break it into, you know, 13 or 12 week type sprints or chunks, then it does make things a bit more controllable or at least feel a bit more controllable. And I love that Mike Tyson phrase. Sonya. I think it was in his autobiography that everyone has a plan until they're punched in the mouth. I think operating, I think operating or running a business or running a part of a business these days it feels like that, you know, everything is changing and it's changing so fast. You know, hopefully we'll get a chance, Sonia, to talk about artificial intelligence and its potential or its actual impact on the workforce. But you know, if I look at my day last week versus my day this week, it's going to be completely different. And that variety is, is great. I mean, I thrive with that variety, but I can appreciate for many people that maybe that variety can be sometimes complex, sometimes come at a cost to themselves and to their families as well. Sonia, I want to look at something that's been described as the labor market paradox or the talent availability problem or the demographic deficit, depending on whether you read Forbes, the Economist, the Financial Times or Bloomberg. But in short, if I can give some context to what I want to talk about, in Western labor markets, they're pretty much all operating at full employment. I think the US labor market has been the best or the fullest since when Nixon was in charge back in the 1970s. UK, even though it's near recession, is almost at full employment. Ireland, which is like a mini USA for your listeners, is, is at full employment and creaking at the seams. Likewise with Germany, Netherlands as well. And I think if you look at the full employment picture coupled with what has been described as a demographic deficit, if you look at the, the trend bars, for example, In Europe since 1960s, we, to date we've roughly produced half the amount of people, right? Which is pretty scary. And the demographic decline is still, is, is roughly similar in the United States. So we're not and have not been producing enough people. Right. In its crudest terms. So we've got, we've got loads of jobs available, we've got full employment and we don't have enough people to do it. Plus, in most western labor markets, there's been significant curtailment or restriction on immigration into countries. And that's causing its own problems, of course, in terms of people being able to access jobs and find people to do jobs. So my question is, Sonia, after that rather long monologue, is what in your view can be done by organizations to minimize or mitigate this talent availability or talent scarcity problem?

Yeah, well, I think there's, I would say three things. One is, are you becoming an employer of choice? So when you're looking for someone to fill a position, do they really want to come to your company and are they excited about what your company is doing? That's the first thing. And then the second thing I would say is to be, to look at where are there opportunities to automate? I know this is a big issue in Japan where everything that you just described I think is hitting them really hard. And they're, they're doing a lot of innovation on how can we automate things, how can we bring in robots, for example, and, and to do certain jobs and. Because it's out of necessity. Right? They have to.

Yes.

They don't have enough people. Right. So, and they do have, have closed borders. So there's, their immigration isn't, isn't open there. Right. So, so we can definitely look at them as a leader and some of the things that they're doing in, in the automation space. And then I think the third thing is to start to look at ourselves as global citizens. So I think there are other countries that maybe aren't as privileged. And we're seeing that in the U.S. primarily with maybe smaller businesses outsourcing to people in the Philippines and Latin America, some of those types of positions that, that, you know, accounting and, and executive assistance and, and things like that, where social media, marketing, you know, things like that, where they can reach out to other countries and actually change someone's life completely while at the same time paying a lower rate. Right. Like they don't, they don't necessarily have to pay us US salaries, but they can, they can provide an amazing salary for somebody in one of those countries to do the same work. And I, so I think it's looking, you know, looking at those three things, you know, are you an employer of choice? So when you're looking at trying to get somebody to come from another company or choose you over another company, do you have that brand in place? And then, you know, number two, looking at where can you automate and be more efficient? And then number Three, you know, how can you think of yourself as a global citizen and you know, look at maybe other countries where you can bring in resources?

Yeah, I love, I love that last piece in particular, Sonia, that, that ability for organizations to help people level up in poorer locations or poorer countries, I think that's a really empowering message. Sonia. There's been a lot of discussion online and in the likes of the Harvard Business Review around a skills based approach to hiring internally and also around creating internal, if you like, talent marketplaces and, and about upskilling internal teams because oftentimes people are either unhappy doing their job but they want to stay within the organization or they might be underutilized within an organization and have, I suppose, more stretch or ability to grow into another position or a dual position. Have you any thoughts on that or do you think it's just sort of nice buzzwords but isn't really happening in actuality?

No, absolutely. I think that I remember when I was at Disney, it's been well over 10 years ago and we had a futurist come in and talk to us about the future of work at that time and she actually talked about the time we're in now that we wouldn't have enough people and that the people that we had wouldn't have the right education for the jobs that were required based on the technology increase. So she knew what she was talking about and that was one of the things that she was telling us at Disney was like, you need to start preparing to be the education. So being able to internally skill up like, like you're saying, like where, where can you bring people in at more of an entry level and then do more of the skilling up inside the company. And I know in, in Los Angeles, where I live, we've had hospitals, for example, reach out to community colleges and actually fund specific education that they need for jobs that they have. Right. So, so they have a career track to do, you know, certain roles in the hospital, hospital administration, things like that, where they, they go to the community college and then the company can come in and start to hire directly out of that community college into roles. And they're already trained for the roles that they, that they want. Right. That they need. And I thought that was really brilliant on, on their part to say, okay, we see, we see the deficit. So how can we partner with academia to, to say let, let us help you. Give us what we need. Not every company has the resources to do something like that, but I think it is looking at how can you get creative and, and Bring people along. And I also think, Connor, that I think in some industries what the education that they're getting in university can't keep up with the pace of change.

Yes, I'm with you.

So, so it's, it's already a problem. Like, like, and I had, I had that happen where I had somebody who had a degree in marketing and I brought her in to help us with our marketing and in executive leadership consulting and the things I was talking about, she had no idea she hadn't been taught at all. And it was just eye opening for me, like, oh, wow, okay, so thing, this is how things are going to be going. If it's happening to me in my small company, this is how things are going to be going.

So that's quite interesting you say that because my first degree was in marketing. Right. So I graduated in 2004. So what's that about 20 years ago? Yeah, just under 20 years ago. Is that right? Yeah. And that degree is actually obsolete. There was no digital marketing component to it. I think it was something to do about the five Ps or the seven Ps. But I can tell you now what, what I learned apart from the, the Harvard Business Review case studies during that time about successful businesses, that was probably relevant, but the rest of the degree is in no way relevant for the, the digital era that we find ourselves in. And I completely agree with you around, around schools and, and education like. Sonia, I'm 43 now and I still recall sitting in a classroom when I was 14 learning something called trigonometry in school. And I remember thinking to myself, I don't want to be an engineer, I don't want to be an architect. Why the hell am I learning this? And I'd be interested to know if it's, if it's, if it's changed since then. I'm not quite sure if it has. Right. That's the scary thing.

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely. So, Sonia, I want to get your take on remote work FMA. Of course, the COVID 19 pandemic forced many organizations to remote first model or completely remote work model. But we've seen in the popular press and we've seen a number of PR and marketing announcements about return to office mandates, particularly within some of the technology companies. And I note some research that, that we looked at recently that the company Grindr, when they introduced a return to office mandate, they lost about, I think it was just under 50% of their employees. And those that remained that were surveyed said basically they'd rather work somewhere else. Right. Which is quite scary. Now of course, that's just an isolated example, but really my question is, do you think the remote work movement has went too far? Because it seems that you've got in one side remote work sellouts, as I would describe them, that believe that remote work is the best way to work and the only way to work. And then you've got those people that are saying, well, actually, you know, for younger people, they should maybe be back in the office on a more regular basis or they don't forget the deskless workers, the people in the factories, the hospitals, the police stations, the police cars that can't work from home. So I suppose my question really is where do you stand on the remote work debate? What's your view on it? Sonia?

Yeah, I think for executive leadership consulting, when I started the company, we've always been remote and I made that choice because I thought, well, we're spending most of our time with clients, they're not going to come to our office, so what do we need an office for? Right. And so I was spent a lot of, a lot of my time when things first shut down, helping leaders understand how do you manage people in a, in a remote, remote environment. And I think there are a lot of people that didn't really learn. So I think that, that as, as I say with everything, what is the purpose behind why you're bringing them back into the office? Is it because you're just, you, you don't, you feel like they're not collaborating then that, that's, that means there's some systems and processes that need to be installed there to increase collaboration. Because I find great collaboration in our company and we're all remote if it's really around business strategy and how do we bring people together and they actually need to be working more in pods on a day to day basis and they actually are working together in meetings most of the day, then I think then yes, bring them into the office. I don't see that too often though. And one of the companies that we work with that has done it really, really well and they, we were working with them when things started to open up, already on their strategy. So they asked us to help with. Help, help us decide what, what the policy should be. And so the first thing we did was we asked people, what do you want? Do you want to be in the office? Do you want to be remote? Most of them said they wanted to be remote, but they wanted the opportunity to be able to call a meeting in person if it was necessary. So we came up with a plan to say, okay, once a month, for three days a month, the whole company comes to the office. And that's when we have our all hands meetings, town halls. That's when the leadership team works on strategy that, you know, all the, all the teams get together and have, and have their monthly meetings that week. And that calendar is set for the entire year. And there's no holiday time during, during that, during those three days. Everybody needs to be there. And it has worked so well for them. And where nobody's complaining about being remote, nobody's complaining about not being, or being in the office. You know, it's, it's, it's worked really well. I think there, you know, was looking at what do people want? What is our business strategy? What do we need them to do? And, and they also instilled a, anybody can call, anybody can call an in person meeting with one week's notice. So, so if there's a group that needs to like, we really need to come together, we need to brainstorm, we need to get together, try to solve a problem, they can do that, they're allowed to do that. So, so that, that's worked really well for them. And, and I think what I hear on the other side from people that are complaining about coming back in the office or even hybrid work environments is like, well, but why am I here? Because a lot of the meetings are, are still online.

Yeah, exactly. And I think, Sonia, just once you get your breath back, I think it's the time of year for colds and sneezes and I've just come back from a four week, four week stint traveling and I'm feeling that myself. But I think that is a great point to make. As you were speaking there, I don't know if you follow this guy on social media or if you've bought any of his books. He's called Jocko Willink. He's a former US Navy SEALs special operations guy and he's got a very large following online and a huge podcast following. And his book is called Extreme Ownership. And one of the principles that he talks about a lot and it, Sonia, is called essentially it's about discipline. And his view is that discipline is equals freedom. And what he means by that really is about self discipline and personal discipline and organizing yourself and being able to delegate authority and when authority is delegated to you, that you're able to take responsibility for that. And based on that discipline, he's saying, well, actually the world is your oyster, right? You know, you will have the freedom to Operate as and how you need to operate. Right. And that there's something really empowering about that. And I think for remote work to work. And by the way, our. Our business in Europe that I run in my day job, Sonia, is completely remote and has been actually since 2015. Right. So we're. We're ahead of the cultural sector. But that was for cost reasons and opportunistic reasons more than anything else. It wasn't about a philosophy per se, but from my experience of running a company where remote work is the only way to work, it's really about the team and the person discipline. Right. Their ability to be disciplined within their job, their ability to. To make the most out of their time when working remotely. Do you think there's anything in that, Sonia?

Yes, and I'm a big fan of extreme ownership. Like the. What I would add to it is, you know, the U.S. navy SEALs have a really strong mission.

Yes, yes.

And they're super passionate about it. Right. So it's much easier to be disciplined when you have that. And so we work with organizations of say, you know, around accountability and extreme ownership and things like that is if they don't care, they're not gonna. That discipline's not gonna be sustained. So how can you develop that purpose for the organization? How. What's their role in. In. In fulfilling that purpose so that you can develop passion. And so when we, when we work with companies, we don't talk about engagement, we talk about passion. Passion for the company and passionate for their role in it. And that's how that. Then it doesn't feel like work. Right. That it doesn't feel like you have push yourself to be disciplined because you're excited about what you're doing, you know, that you're contributing. What you're doing has meaning. And then it doesn't feel so restrictive or trying to create compliance. It's really around inspiration and moving forward with wanting to contribute to what we're doing.

Yeah, I love. I completely love that. And I subscribe to what you've just, just said. If I could. Could sum it up, I would suggest that meaning matters. Right. And that that passion and positivity, if handled right and communicated right, can lead to profits for your organization. I really think it's as simple as that. Right? Absolutely. Sonia. I'm becoming obsessed with artificial intelligence. Of course, like many of the things we've discussed today, it's hit the cultural and an organizational psychist. But I've been reading about artificial intelligence probably for the coming up to. About the Last four years or so. And the more I read about it, the more concerned I become and I become concerned really about its impact on people and its impact on jobs and people's ability to have a meaningful life and a meaningful job. And I started reading a lot about a labor market economist called Vasily Leontiovin, where for it's niche, right, I appreciate its niche or niche. But he looked at horses in New York before the advent of the combustion engine and the motor car and lorries and all that sort of stuff. And I think from memory there's about 7 million or so horses in, in New York, Sonia. And really within a few short years, with the advent and adoption of the combustion engine and what that meant for people and goods transformation, there was no need for horses. And his thesis and hypothesis rather is that humans will become the new horses as automation increases. Now bear in mind that Leontio, I think passed away in the 1970s, so he wasn't around to witness the advent of artificial intelligence or AGI and maybe super intelligence. But that's quite a bleak and dystopian view. Sonia, I do appreciate, but have you got a more nuanced or more positive view on artificial intelligence and automation and its potential positive impact on humans and jobs?

Yes, I think that it opens up the ability for us to be more innovative. So what I work with, we've been testing AI in our company and when I see the time saving things that it provides, that frees us up to have more time to think. Right. So we were talking about burnout earlier and what I say is any model that's scalable from the individual to trans organizational is a strong model. And when we are as a human being under stress, all of our energy goes to our limbs so that we can run fight, freeze. Right. But, but we're, but we're not thinking, it's. So when we look at organizations that are experiencing high burnout and I, when I, and I observe this in, in companies when, when there's a lot of stress in the organization, there's a lot of activity, but not a lot of thinking.

Yes.

And so I think where I, where AI could really help is to start taking some of those activity things that are more repeatable, that we could take from other sources and combine to give us more time to be thinking and which allows to greater innovation, which allows for new ways of doing things. And so I think if it's approached properly, AI can really be a benefit and a boom to more innovation in not just the technology industry, which is where it's bringing the innovation right now, but in everything, right? And I think there's, of course there's the danger of having it be abused, but it's going back to how can we now recognize what people's superpowers are and maybe move them to a different role. So if AI is going to take their job, what about the way they think and what fulfills them? Could be a different type of job that we haven't even thought of yet. In 2020, I think it was either 2019 or 2020, Dell Technologies came out with a study where they, where they were looking at where is technology going over the next 10 years. And they said in 2030, 85% of the jobs we have today will no longer exist. They'll all be new jobs. And so that was really inspiring to me to say AI could really change what we do and how we do work in a really amazing way and in a really inspiring way to really do what we do best, which is maybe not rote work, but maybe really thinking about how can we be innovative? Innovative, how can we serve people more, how can we create better lives for people, how can we create a better planet? All of these things. I think we're starting to see little glimpses of them in the world, but I think AI could potentially open up doors to see even more.

Okay, I like it. I like that very optimistic viewpoint, Sonia. So here's hoping that my rather dystopian scenario that I outlined is, is not going to be the, the future work. And I had a question, I probably should have asked it earlier, Sonia, but what, what's your thoughts on the, the so called cult of the founder? Right. We've seen, we work at Implode recently in the popular press. I think they've just went into one of the bankruptcy chapters in the United States and associated territories. But is that something that you help organizations move away from that founder led, founder managed business and help them go on a journey whereby they might become maybe more professional and less freewheeling? Or do you think that's just something that has happened over the last few years, that the, the founder has been fetishized with the, the sort of growth of VC and, and technology startups?

Yes, I think, I think it's, it's, it can be dangerous on both sides as the company grows. It can be dangerous for the founder in that you don't feel like you can step away and that, and everything is dependent on you and as the company grows you can't possibly sustain that. So I think that's one side on the founder. It can be a big weight that can crush them. And I've seen that. And we work with organizations with that as well. And then on the flip side, on the culture side, out of that small business startup mode into more of a midsize organization where you really need to start to have more structure there, there. How do you do that in a way that doesn't overstructure things or create bureaucracy and also keeps the culture of what you started with. Right. So, so maintains that, that love of being startup and what you're doing and the excitement and the passion and bring in the structure without losing that is one of the things that we love working with organizations on too, because I see the mistakes made so many times about. We worked with one company where the venture capital came in and the founder stepped out and they brought in all, you know, Fortune 500 executives for the leadership team, and they had a very powerful culture. And, and the leadership team ended up becoming very political and lots of infighting. And so the, the VC firm. Okay. Got rid of all of them, brought in other people again with the same experience, Fortune 500 that were appreciative of the culture. And then that's when we stepped in to say, okay, how, how can we build the right amount of structure and not bring in your, all of your bureaucracy from the corporate environment that you came from, but have the right amount of structure and have that be in alignment with the culture and in alignment with each other as a leadership team?

Yeah, I love that. And funny, it's something I've struggled with myself. I have to, I have to admit, Sonia. But I'm pleased to report that we're on, that we're on the right journey of standardization. We're still keeping that, that entrepreneurial culture aligned to the passion and of course, the purpose. But I think that's really great for audience to hear there. Sonja, what you just described. And Sonja, if we may, I'd love to look to the future and I'd love to get your thoughts in particular on the future work. And there's a question, Sonja, that we ask all of our guests, and the question is what, if any, is your prediction or predictions for the future work?

Yeah. So I think that companies will need to figure out what they're doing with AI and how can they make that work. I don't think that any company in the next 10 years is going to be able to get away from it or pretend that it's not there. I think that we all have to figure that out and see how we use it and how we use it properly. I think that this, this trend towards burnout and the speed of change is going to cause, is going to cause some companies to really look at how do we, how do we create more meaning and purpose? We're seeing, we're seeing a little bit of it already, but I think that the younger, younger generations that are coming up are making decisions based on the purpose of a company, not just where they work, but how they buy. So they will choose to buy something from a company that they feel aligned with their purpose, even if it's more expensive. So I think that companies are going to start to recognize that and be focused more on purpose. And that excites me because I'm super passionate about that. And then I think the third thing is what we were talking earlier about being global citizens and looking at how can we look at other countries, expand our workforce, upskill and train in different ways than we have before so that we can achieve the goals of the company in a different way and with the people that we need to achieve them?

Sonia, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer that and for providing our audience with your thoughts and predictions on the future work. I have to say, Sonia, I've thoroughly enjoyed our conversation today. I'm really grateful for your time. I think some of the advice that you were so kind to impart and share on our show will truly be transformational and inspirational for our audience, no matter what stage or level of their career our audience and listeners are at. So I really enjoyed it. I actually feel so motivated, Sonia, after, after listening and speaking with you and from a personal point of view, I'm really glad that our organization is on the right track and we're following some of the principles that you've outlined in your book and outlined during the course of our show. So thank you so much, Sonia. I appreciate you're a really busy woman. So thank you very much indeed. Sonia, for, for our audience, should they wish to get in touch with you and your company, what is the best way for them to, to reach out to you? How can they get in touch?

The best way is to go to our website, which is executiveleader.com and we have links to link to my LinkedIn on there, to the company LinkedIn. You can reach out to us via email from there. And then we also have a ton of free resources from webinars that, that I mentioned on some of the topics that we talked about. You know, how to, how to connect with your, why all of those things are all in the one stop shop.

Of executiveleader.com wow Sonia. So for those leaders and organizations that really want to find their why, that want to get their purpose, that want to get the meaning that matters, please do reach out to Sonja because she's a real inspiration. So Sonia, thanks again for your time and wishing you a great day ahead. Thanks so much for getting up so early to do the show. I really appreciate it.

Thanks so much for having me. I really enjoyed our conversation.

Thanks Sonya. Take care. Sa.