AGL 315: Sonya Shelton

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All right, geek leaders. Today I'm honored to have Sonya Shelton on the show. She is the CEO and founder of Executive Leadership Consulting Group and back in 2007, and she has an awesome domain name executiveleader.com so you can find out more about that when you visit that site. But anyway, Sonya, welcome to the show.

Thank you. I'm really happy to be here and excited for our conversation.

Yeah, it's gonna be a lot of fun if you could just tell the audience a little bit about your background and kind of how you got to where you are today, just to get the conversation rolling.

Yes, absolutely. So I said, as you mentioned, I started Executive leadership consulting in 2007, and prior to that, I was the head of internal communications worldwide for the Walt Disney Company. And I left that job because I was there at a very interesting time. I was there when, you know, for about seven years. So in 2000, when the culture was really good. You know, Disney's known for having a great culture. And then I was also there during a time when nobody in my position had ever experienced, experienced this, and nobody in my position, in that position will ever experience it again. Where we had a member of the Disney family, Roy Disney, led a shareholder revolt against our CEO at the time, Michael Eisner. So you can imagine I'm the head of internal communications in a company going through a divorce, essentially, and being told, you know, you need to keep everybody focused and understand, you know, remind them why it's great to work for the company while we're going through this major crisis. And I really saw kind of the best of the best, and then also the worst as well, not just of what was happening in the culture, but also what happened to my own leadership in that process. And what I really developed was a lot of empathy for leaders and sometimes that it's our environment that. That creates leadership issues and had that recognition and really shifted how I was leading the team and. And then also, you know, how I approached dealing with that crisis and getting to the other side of it. And I really realized that I could have, through that experience, have a bigger impact in working with other companies on helping them develop their leadership capabilities and. And creating a culture from knowing the best of the best, but also experiencing some of the worst.

Yeah, for sure. I know, like, when I. When you talk about environment. Environment kind of, you know, you know, kind of encouraging a leader to be one way or the other, where. Where do you see most companies falling? Because, you know, I've heard about certain companies like, you go back to the olden days of GE where they used to cut the bottom 10%, kind of having that fearful environment leading from a way of fear. And then you hear other environments where it's like all, you know, beanbags and free lunches and, you know, celebrating everything. Where do most companies fall on that spectrum?

I think there's probably a mix. I think that. That. I think people are trying to figure out culture, right, because they don't understand really what culture means and. And how to impact it. And so. So even if you're not doing anything about culture in your company, there's still a culture in that company. And I think, really, that's where most companies are, is there is. They're just. It sort of just happens organically and maybe follows the leadership style of the person in charge. So whether it's the department manager creating a culture within their department, or whether it's the CEO creating a culture for the company. But. But what we really do is help companies look at their business strategy to say, what is it that you're trying to achieve as a business? What is your purpose? What is your vision? And then how do we align your culture to be able to make those business drivers and goals happen? Right. So you can really leverage culture to be a competitive advantage and to get to your goals faster. But if you're trying to make it where you Know, maybe it's, it's more on the fear side, as you said. It's, it's, you're going to get, you're going to get some results, but you're going to get compliance.

Right?

So people are going to do just what they need to do to not get in trouble or not get fired. And then on the flip side, if you're doing the, all of the celebration and, and things like that, you're. Then you're missing the business side. Right? So it might be a great place to work, but are you really getting those business results that you're trying to drive for, which is ultimately the intention of the company? And I, A few years ago, there was a, there was, there were these two TV series that were on around the same time, and one was about Uber and one was about We Work. And I thought they were a perfect example. You know, of course there, it's dramatized for television. Right. But they're a perfect example of the two extremes. Right? So Uber really focusing on business results at all cost and creating a toxic work environment. And then we work being about all, you know, parties and having a great place to work, and they almost killed the company. Right. So neither of those were aligned with the business strategy to say, what, what do we need for our people to be able to get where we want to go?

So when you're, you know, doing that, I know you've talked a lot on your YouTube channel about, you know, start, you know, starting with why. What's your why? Figuring out why. And that's kind of, you know, the theme of Simon Sinek's first book. But yeah, how many times do you go in and meet with a company and they don't really know what they're looking for? They don't really know their why and how to get there. Does that happen often?

I would say probably 98% of the time, you know, and, and I think, you know, a lot of companies get, get lost in what their why is. And even, even entrepreneurs and founders, you know, they, they might start a company for a particular reason, have a really strong why, and then as they get going and start to grow as the company, they lose track of it. And I had a CFO tell me one time, well, isn't. Isn't every business's why to make money? And yes, that's, that is a, that is the result of their, of, of what you're trying to do as a company, but that's not what people are buying. Right? So, and that's not why people Want to come work for you. Right. So they could go anywhere to make money. And I think we saw some of that, you know, in the great resignation where, where companies were having to compete on benefits and compensation and things like that to get people to come work for their company, where really, if you focus on purpose and that why, like you said, it's, it's. They're coming to be part of something and they're. And when you get an employee that's coming to be part of something where they can connect their personal why to the why of the company, then you can develop what we call passion. Right. Which can overcome obstacles, which bring innovation, can bring more ideas and further your goals faster than you even thought was possible.

Yeah, for sure. And, you know, I think a lot of times when people get the difference between like their motivations and why they're doing something versus the results, and that happens all the time, especially with technology. You know, when we're trying to look at building software and like that, we're going to write a user story and a lot of people will forget what the difference between the why you're doing this versus the results that you're going to be getting from that. And they're two different things.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think even in technology, you know, whether you're working in a technology department or you're a technology company, really looking at why you're doing what you're doing, because no matter what you're doing in technology, you're driving change. And change isn't always easy for people. And so when you come first with that, why, like, why is this important? Why do you want to do this? Why is, why is this going to move you forward? Then that change becomes easier for them. Right.

So.

So when we think about, you know, you might be changing a process or changing an organization structure in a business, and that becomes uncomfortable and people resist it. But then you think about some of the biggest changes in our lives, like moving into a new house or getting married. Those are massive changes. And yet because there's such a big why behind it, we're willing to deal with all of the stress and pain that goes along with it.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And you know, when you talk about getting to that why, how important is it for leaders to like, you know, remind people or re. Emphasize it or cause, you know, a lot of times you'll have these big celebrations where you talk about your vision or your strategies and things like that, and then the daily work comes. And when the daily work comes, we start forgetting about the Purpose and what we're here for. And I know when I was, you know, just a software developer at a company, you know, a decade ago, I had to continually remind my team of what our purpose was. And, you know, that, yeah, we're writing code, but the code isn't just for us. It's to help, you know, the technician that's out in the field finish his day early, you know, not have to work overtime because, you know, technology is not working for them to simplify his tasks so that he has a less stressful, know, experience, and he or she can get home to their children quicker, to their family to spend more time with their loved ones. And that's our why, you know, kind of had to like, reiterize that, you know, over and over again. How often do you think, you know, we have to remind our team of what that is?

Yeah. So we, we use a model that we call Red Thread leadership, where we start with that purpose at the individual level. Like, what is your personal why? Why do you do what you do? How do you deliver on that? Why? And then ultimately, what can other people expect from you? And then we take that and we drive that through the leadership team at an individual level, and then as a team. And then we look at the company purpose. Right? So, so we're connecting all of those whys together and then connecting it for the company out into the world to say, what is your purpose? Why do you do what you do? How do you deliver on that? And what can everybody expect from you, whether that's inside your company or your customers? And then we take that purpose and we connect it through everything in the organization. So we start with the plan and, you know, what is it your. What is your vision? What is your strategy? Like, you're talking about your goals. But then we also keep going from there to say, okay, so now how does all of this connect to your processes? And do. Are you really being the most efficient that you can be in your processes? If you really look at your purpose and your vision and where you want to go, is everything that you're doing in alignment with that? And then we also look at your positions, right? So, so who do you have on the team? How are you structured? How are people promoted? How are they rewarded? And is all of that connected to your purpose and vision? And then finally we look at the fifth B, which is, which is passion, which is the culture part. Right? So do people feel engaged? Are you communicating with them? Are you celebrating those wins of bringing that purpose to life and progressing towards your Vision. So it really becomes that red thread through everything that you do. So it's not something you have to recommunicate. It's just about who you are and where you're going.

Yeah, understood. And, and when it comes to, you know, that passion and that culture that you want to kind of drive in, you know, how do you find what that is? You know, for each person, it's going to be different and each person is going to have like, a different reason why they're working. Some are working to advance their career, some are working to kind of just provide for their family. And some, some are working because they really love what they're doing. And some people don't. Some people, you know, and it's fine to have someone that doesn't really love what they're doing, but they're good at it and they just want to do it so that they can live somewhere and have a certain, know, lifestyle. But how do you, how do you relate to each individual person that has a different passion for what they're doing?

Yeah, so we, we use a tool called the why connection. And it's really about really getting underneath what is your real why. So you had a why before you had a family. You had a why before you had this career. And it's, and the reason why it's so hard for us to get to is because it lives in a part of the brain that doesn't have language. And so this, this tool, it's in, it's. It uses AI to help get underneath your conscious thought into what is your real why? And takes about 10 minutes. And we, and we go through this tool to say, you know, what is your why? Why do you do what you do? And then how do you deliver on that why? How do you internally process information to recognize, bring that why to life? And then ultimately, what can other people expect from you based on your why and your how? What, what. What do you ultimately deliver? And when organizations have access to that information, when leaders have access to that information for their team, then they can say, okay, I understand what their why is what, how they operate, what we call your superpower, and are they in the right role to be able to leverage that superpower? And then also, you know, if I understand what motivates you, then I can make sure that I'm putting you in positions to be able to leverage that superpower. If everyone on the team understands your superpower, they're collaborating with you and really leveraging that superpower. And that's where fulfillment comes from. And that's where the passion comes from. And I also, I've also seen that sometimes that y connection can be misunderstood. So sorry. For example my, my why connection is I believe success happens when we partner together to make a bigger impact. And how I do that is I by finding better ways and sharing them and ultimately what I deliver simple solutions. So for me that better way how can really be misunderstood for my team because they might think that because I'm always looking for better ways of doing things, they might misinterpret that as me being critical of them or that their way of doing thing is things isn't good enough and that it also can even create issues in the culture where if somebody comes into the team and they really like stability and the status quo and that's not who we are as a company because we're always changing to say what do our clients need now? So, so I even talk about that in interviews. I use it to as part of the hiring process to say this is who I am as a leader, this is how I operate. And because I'm the CEO and founder of the company, it's also permeates our culture. Right. So if you're looking for that place that doesn't have a lot of change, that creates a lot of stability that you know that is predictable and you always know you're going to be doing the same thing, this really isn't the company for you. So. So not not only am I able to. To use other people's why on the team as how we operate, but also in how who we bring in and what they can expect from the company.

Yeah, no, I think that's really good. In a larger company do like head of departments have the ability to kind of set their own why within like a sub why? I guess you would say within a company in a subculture that can be a little bit different than let's say the overall culture of the company.

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. So you want to have their alignment so that they fit together. But. But yeah, we, we work with bigger companies. We do look at what for that individual team, they're delivering something towards that purpose and vision that the company is trying to do. But they're, they're doing it in their own unique way. And because they're working as a team together they have their own way of doing things, their own why. And so we, we have what's called a team why where we look at not only do we do the individual why connection for each person, we actually do it at the team level to Say, okay, so if this is everybody in the team and you understand everybody's superpowers. Now let's talk about your purpose as a team and what is your why as a team and how do you deliver on that? And then what can others expect? And depending on where they fit in the company, they can use that almost like their own branding within the company. If they're more of a service, a service part of the company, or, you know, if they're in technology, they can let other people know what to expect from them. Like, this is how we work. And otherwise they can look at externally to say, okay, what is. How does this fit into our brand and our marketing and how we talk about ourselves and how we can ultimately differentiate ourselves?

Yeah, I think that's really good. You know, I try to do that with my team. You know, we come up with our own technology code as we would. It talks about kind of like our why and our cultural norms and the way we operate and who we are. And, you know, it's a little bit different than that of everyone else. But I do it so that we can kind of try to build teamwork within our group and work closer together, you know, and some of the things that are in our code are very simple, like we choose people over process or we question our assumptions and things like that. Do you think doing something like that helps build a team or does it create divisions out outside of, you know, your area? Like, because I want to be careful, like, not to divide us up too much. You know what I mean?

Yeah, I think it's. It is important to create that culture within your team, but it's also not at the exclusion or differentiation from what the company is trying to do. Right. So it's. It's making sure that you're talking about how we operate and. And creating that team. Why? In the context of what the. The company is trying to do and showing how you're contributing to that and how you make that connection, and then also making sure that your leadership understands what you're trying to do with the culture of your team as well. So that they can then say, when they're recognizing your team for doing something, they can then say, okay, this is how they fit. This is how they're connecting to what we're trying to achieve as a company as well.

Yeah, I think that's really cool. Do you find. You know, you mentioned the great resignation a few years back that is kind of caused a lot of people to shift around and work remotely and be in different time zones in different areas now than where we were before. And a lot of companies have kind of brought people back into a hybrid environment. And whether that's good or bad, that's maybe a lot longer conversation. But how do you feel like we have to adjust the way we build a culture, build a team, when we have this environment of some people being in the office, some people being out of the office, and so on and so forth?

Yeah, I think it's really important, again, coming back to a different element of why it's really important to be intentional about why you're doing what you're doing. Right. So I've seen so many companies, like maybe started with everybody can work from home and then said, oh, no, you need to come in three days a week. And now some companies are saying four days a week or you can't work from home at all. Right. So they're changing the policies because they can't. They're not really being intentional about how they're leading the team. So at Executive Leadership Consulting, we've always been a virtual team because I decided earlier on that, you know, our consultants are generally with clients and nobody ever comes to see us. And. And I could add more flexibility with people working from home for myself and for the rest of the team. So. So I've always had that environment. Um, and I know. But I also know that you have to be more intentional about bringing people together, about connecting with them on a personal level, recognizing that you're not going to have those hallway conversations or conversations while you're getting coffee, and you have to make the time for them. So it's not. It's not just, you know, getting on a meeting, on an online meeting and jumping right into business. Take a moment to connect with people as if you were in a conference room and people were arriving, you know, from different meetings, and you would have a little bit of chit chat and getting to know each other. How was your weekend? What's new? You know, making the time to be able to have those conversations, to continue to build trust and connection and. But you have to be intentional. It just doesn't happen organically. Happens more organically when you're in person. So when you're. When you're working virtually, it's. You have to create those opportunities.

Yeah. And I know for me, when, you know, you're working virtually, it feels a lot different. So when I'm in the office, I can walk by someone's, you know, office and just poke my head in and say hello and chat for a little bit. But it feels so weird to like send someone a message and say, hey, I just wanted to say hi, how are you doing? Because I feel like I'm intruding on them, you know, like I'm invading their space. Yeah, you know, it doesn't feel as, as natural. So how do you get over that?

Yeah, I think, I think there is, you know, the way that I do it with my team is not necessarily doing those check ins ad hoc, but more doing them intentionally so increasing the number of one on ones that I have and making sure that the, that I have time set aside for that connection to see how they're doing. And then we also, we use Microsoft Teams in our company and so we're, we're always sending each other, you know, messages on teams and, and you know, even starting the day with a little meme or something to, to make them laugh, you know, some, something to do, little connections where they don't necessarily have to dis. I'm not disrupting their flow of their work, but I'm reminding that I'm thinking them about them and, and, and being social in addition to focusing on business.

Yeah, I think that's good. I think scheduling it out and you know, it kind of takes that edge off a little bit about being a surprise and some of the anxiety about just pinging someone, you don't know if they're busy, if they're not busy. You know, you don't want to look like you're that micromanaging boss that's just constantly, you know, checking to see if they're working or putting laundry in or something like that.

Right, right, exactly. And I know some of our clients have done things like, you know, just sending a gift card for food delivery and saying let's grab lunch. Like let's, you know, we can have lunch together online and just chat. Right. And treating them to lunch that way and just connecting with them.

Yeah, I think that's one of the cool things. My wife, she worked remotely for many years and now she's in the office, but when she was remote at the other company, she would get her team together for lunch like every other week where they would all get on zoom and eat lunch together and show each other what they made and she would give little like prizes for the most, you know, creative lunch that someone comes up with or creates. And then they would play a little game, you know, an online game of some sort, maybe among us or something like that.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So it is looking at, you know, for those opportunities and thinking about who do we want to be as a team and how do we make sure that we're connecting each other with each other on the human level? And when you're working virtually, it's important to just be intentional, right? It's, it is, like I said, it's, it's, it happens organically when you're in person and you can say, oh, let's grab lunch or you know, you, like I say running to somebody in the hallway or getting coffee. It just. When you're working virtually, you have to create those moments and really make the time for it. I think sometimes we get so focused on meeting after meeting after meeting when we're working from home that not necessarily taking that time to really just connect with people.

Yeah. So, you know, what do you think the reason is that they're bringing a lot of these virtual employees back into the office? You know, we talk. Is it that they're trying to be intentional or is it because they realize that a lot of their leaders are not being intentional and they're not doing a good job of this, or is it just because we're here, other people are doing it and we've got this big building that's empty that we're paying for and we don't know what to do with it. We've got a five year lease we need to make use of. Let's bring people back.

Yeah, I think it's all of it. And it's, and it's also, you know, I heard a lot of companies that said, oh, you need to come in the office like three days a week. But then people would come into the office and they'd be having meetings with people. Well, half the people in the meeting are also at home. Right. So why am I here? Right. So, so they get frustrated because like, okay, you're asking me to come in the office, but why? And, and that shows that, that shows me that they're not being intentional. The companies that I've seen it do this really well in a hybrid environment. Bring people together, all together at the same time in a very, for, for a specific purpose. So for example, one of our clients does three days a week, once a month, the whole company is together and that's when they have their town hall meetings and their leadership team meetings and their strategy meetings and all. Everything happens on those three days where they need to collaborate and then everybody has a chance to call, to call for an in person meeting if they need one. They need, they, if they need to give at least a week notice. But they can say, you Know, we need to get together and brainstorm or we need to get in a room and work this out. And we need to be in person. And anybody can call that meeting with at least a week's notice to bring people together. And I think that's when really being intentional about it and saying, this is why we're coming together in person. I think that's what's been frustrating for a lot of teams is they're saying, okay, we'll come back into the office, you know, three days a week, four days a week, or full time. And people are saying, but why? Right. Like there's, there's no intention behind it other than, you know, maybe leaders feeling like productivity has gone down or results have gone down. And it's. I would look at it as more of a bigger systemic issue than just bringing people back into the office. I think. I can't remember the name of the company, but I saw in the news where one company said, oh, we're, we're making everybody come back into the office because we found, we did this research and found that there were whole departments that hadn't even opened their laptop for 30 days, including the managers. Right. And I was like, how does that happen? I still can't wrap my head around it from a leadership perspective. Like, how, how does it happen? Nobody called a meeting with these people for a month. Really. Right. And, and, and, and that's, that's a leadership issue. That's not, that's not a working from home issue.

Yeah, I, it goes back to a couple of things. I saw one company that kind of. I thought they did it a little bit better than most. When they decided to go hybrid, they said, you know, you can work three days a week. You know, you need to be in the office three days a week. We don't care which three days, as long as one of those days is Wednesday. Because on Wednesday we're doing an all staff. You know, that's when we're going to schedule our all staff meetings. That's when we want, you know, interdepartments to work together on Wednesdays. You know, that's the day that you should plan on that. So they kind of made it to where you could be Monday, Wednesday, Friday, or Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. But either way, you're going to be there on Wednesday. And that way they can do things that way. I thought that was kind of a little bit better solution because that way, you know, people are going to be there. I've seen other, other offices where they told people, oh, you know, you know, you can work from anywhere. We're going fully remote and people moved. And I had a friend of mine that people that worked with him, they moved to, you know, a different state. And then the company switched gears, you know, nine months later and said everybody's got to be back in the office. What about this person, you know, do they have to move back? Do they quit? Do they lose a job? You know, have we thought this through?

Right, right, exactly, exactly. Yeah. I think one of our clients actually did that when they, they created a flexible work schedule in, in working three days. But they said they, and they, they actually intentionally said you need to be within commuting distance. Right. If you, even if you're working from home, you need to be within commuting distance, whatever that means to you.

Right, yeah, I think that's a, I think that's the way to do it if you're gonna, you know, do something like that. Otherwise you have to make a provision that says, you know, if you're within 30 minutes of the office, you know, you have to be on site. But then it's still gets a little shady because people will move just to not do that sometimes.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

I think this has been great. How can people connect with you online, learn more about how to find their companies, why, and maybe get some help in that area if they need to?

Yes, absolutely. So our, our company website is executiveleader.com we have a lot of free resources on there. We have a link to the Y connection. We're always putting out new blogs and have hundreds of blogs on leadership, all for free. And then you can reach out to me on LinkedIn. I'm also putting, putting out a lot of content on LinkedIn. You can engage with me there. I'm very active on LinkedIn. And then I also would love to offer your audience. I do a masterclass on the red thread leadership model and how to create that purpose driven culture so that you can create a high performing team. And you can look at that for free on redthreadleadership.com all right, I'll link.

That up in the show notes too@a geekleader.com so people click through as well. And I also linked up your website, your book and your LinkedIn because I think those are all great resources that you mentioned before, even your YouTube, which you didn't mention. But I went on there and I saw some, some nice videos about, you know, finding your wine, things like that, which are very helpful. And anyway, I want to say thank you for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. I think it's been very helpful for our listeners.

Thank you John. I loved our conversation.

If you enjoyed that episode, please leave a rating and review and Apple Podcasts. I'd greatly appreciate that. And also, don't forget to check out merch we some T shirts that I've designed that are on a geekleader.com you can click on the merchandise section there and check that out. And also, don't forget about the books from our guests. So if you like this guest and other guests that have written books, please go ahead and check that out@ageckleader.com I would greatly appreciate it. And I'm sure they would too.