Sonya Shelton

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Good morning. Good morning. I am Deb Krier and I am passionate about giving professionals the tools that they need to make themselves and their businesses as successful as possible. And I am so excited about my guest today because we're going to be talking about one of the things that I think causes the most issues, the most angst, the most sleepless nights, and that's on how in the heck do I actually lead? So please join me in welcoming Sonia Shelton to our program today. Welcome, Sonia. How are you doing today?

I'm doing great. I'm super excited about our conversation today.

Perfect. Well, let me tell people a little bit about you and then we will dive into this.

Great.

So when it comes to navigating the ins and outs of business, Sonia Shelton has seen it all. From startups to to Fortune 500 companies. Sonia is the CEO of Executive Leadership Consulting, where she partners with high growth companies to drive both passionate culture and profitable strategy. She's on the Forbes Coaches Council and is the author of the number one Amazon bestseller, you're an executive, but are you a leader? So again, Sonia, welcome.

Thank you. I love how you say the title of the book. That's perfect.

I know, but are you a leader?

Right.

Well, you know, I always like to know from my guests how they got to where they are today. And you especially have a fun story. So tell us a little bit more about how it is that you discovered that this is your passion in life.

Yeah. So prior to starting Executive Leadership Consulting, I was the head of internal communications for the Walt Disney Company Worldwide.

Wow.

So it was. And I was there at an interesting time, the first part of my career there. Of course, you know, Disney's known for having tremendous culture. Right. And. But I was there at a time when nobody in my position had experienced what I experienced, and nobody in that position will ever experience it again. We had a member of the Disney family, Roy Disney, leading a Holder revolt against our CEO Michael Eisner. Right. So imagine I'm the head of internal communications in the company, basically going through a divorce. Right.

The mice are fighting. Oh, no.

Right, right. And so it was like a lot of pressure on our team to remind people why this is a good company.

Right.

Try remind them to stay focused on the work. Right. And at the same time, all of this politics going on and what I, so I, so I would say I was probably at the company during the worst of times as well as the best of times. And it gave me this perspective one, how I responded as a leader myself. Okay? Right. And when I was in that situation became, I behaved badly frankly, to, to, to based on what was happening to me, passing that on to my team. They gave me the feedback that was not okay. And it was a wake up call for me. And we shifted things, but it was like, doesn't matter what's happening in the environment we can have, our team can be different. So that one lesson, and it really gave me a lot of empathy for leaders in that they might know the right thing to do, but it might be their environment that's getting in the way. And how do they separate from that and create their, they can create their own environment within that environment that can actually shift the broader environment. Right. So that was one thing. And then also looking at what I learned from Disney in the ability to connect culture and business results and then the impact of what a negative culture and a toxic culture looks like company. Right. So I really experienced both while I was there and I saw that the impact of that and the impact of leadership and the impact of culture started doing new things at Disney. And I also realized I could have a bigger impact in working for other companies. I could also say things out from being outside the company that I wouldn't be able to say.

Right? You're that unbiased person.

Right? Right. Well, and also, you know, to be able to tell the truth without fear of, well, what's that going to mean for my career if I really say this? Right. So, so that's why I decided to start Executive Leadership consulting. And Disney was my first client. And I, and I just am really passionate about this blend of bringing strategy and culture together. Right.

You know, and, and, and I love this because of course the outside world has, has a view of what the culture at Disney is.

Right.

You know, because we all know the happiest place on earth. Right? I mean, you know, that's, that's just what we hear all the time. And you know, obviously the image is happy, smiling people who are there to do everything they possibly can to make their guests welcome, all of those things. But you know, the happiest place on earth isn't always happy, you know, as you said. And, and I think that's probably one of the big disconnect is you've got your outside view from the world and then what the heck is really on inside and how to really deal with that. And then as you mentioned, business strategy. And I think so many times we as business leaders think it's one or the other. We can make money or we can be happy people. And of course, that's the farthest thing from the truth.

Yeah, absolutely. There's this, that famous Peter Drucker quote that culture eats strategy for breakfast. And I used to believe that, but I actually don't believe it anymore.

Right.

And it's, it's really because I started to see some companies who took culture too far at the expense of the business results. Right. And then other companies, of course, like we've seen time and time again that focus on business strategy first and ignore culture and think they don't have one. But it doesn't matter whether you work on it or not, you have one. And so that's. But I think most people think, well, if I'm, if I focus on culture, that's the soft stuff, right? That I can't. That I. That's not going to end up in business results. It's just making people happy. Like you said, it actually can. When, when you work with really focusing on your purpose as a company, that can help both internally and externally. Right. So, so why are we here? What, what is it that we're trying to do and what's our purpose in the world? Right? Can be, you can have people that are really passionate about that internally that will come up with new ideas, new ways of doing things that will create exponential results in your business that you never would have thought of. Right? But if you don't have that, they will just come in and do their job and they're not really thinking for you. Right. And as a leader, to be able to lean into your team to help you think can make a huge difference in how you show up. And then I think what's interesting in the past few years are these younger generations are also making buying decisions based on purpose. So they'll spend more money with a company if they believe in their purpose.

Right?

And I think that's something new so that we, I think the previous generations, of course, purpose is important to all of us as far as where we work, but not necessarily in how we buy, right?

We buy for convenience. We buy out of habit. We, you know, all of those other things. It's like they save turtles. Oh, okay, that's nice. But they get my laundry clean.

Right, right, right. So I think companies are, are going to be forced to focus on this or they're not going to be business in business anymore. Right.

You know, and I think obviously what we've seen in the last couple of years is the great resignation. Now, I, I, I don't know that it's quite as great as they all say, but I think a big part of it is people really did realize I, I, I want to work somewhere where I am happy, you know, and we're not going to be happy every day. It's just that's, that's not realistic. But it is kind of like the happy wife happy life saying, you know, if you have employees who are happy most of the time, or at least not unhappy, so maybe, you know, maybe on this scale you're going to have, you're, everything is just going to work better, you know, and, and, and they, they need to understand, you know, the, the, the leadership needs to understand that.

Yeah, absolutely. And I, I think that, and that's why we, we use purpose instead of engagement. We use passion instead of engagement. Because when you think about times in your life that you had a stressful situation that had a purpose. So, for example, it might be when you got married. Weddings are very stressful.

Right.

Moving to a new home, moving is very stressful. Having a child, very stressful. Right. But we have this purpose behind it. So we, and we, we're so excited about the purpose that we get through the stress easier. Right, right. We don't, you know, it's not that it doesn't affect us. Of course it does. But we're so focused on the purpose that, that we keep going forward. And I think that's what organizations can, can do with their purpose is, is create that passion so that it doesn't feel like stress. And it's definitely not burnout. Right. Where it's like, okay, we are going through challenging times, but we see this as an opportunity or an obstacle for us to get around to be able to fulfill our purpose, and we're going to work harder on that rather than just out. And I think burnout is a big issue that I'm focused on right now because it's exponentially growing all around the world, not just in the U.S. right. Where employees are experiencing increased burnout. And I've looked into why is that. Right. So what's happening? And I found two things. One, one is that we're in a more uncertain world. Than we've ever been for a variety of reasons. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, and when we used to do strategy, we used to do, you know, three year plan, five year plan, not anymore. It's a one year plan and a vision. Right. Of that's longer term because things, you don't know what's going to, what things are going to be happening in three years.

Covid taught us that.

Right, exactly, exactly. So, so that's one thing is this uncertainty of the future which makes people feel unsettled. And then we have this speed of change, technology moving forward so fast and things.

Can you say AI?

Right, exactly, exactly. That's moving forward so fast. And you know how when you get stressed in your body, all of the energy goes to your limbs, your arms and legs. Right. And I see organizations doing the same thing. Right. When they, when they are feeling this uncertainty and this change, they're very busy.

But they're not really we're going to justify our existence.

So there's a lot of activity, but not a lot, not a lot of thinking going on. Right. And, and focus on, on what are we trying to do here. So I think that's one aspect of burnout. And then, and then I think it's also because things are moving so fast, it's almost like people are on a treadmill with no destination. They're just running really fast. Right. And when we feel like we're not going anywhere feels futile. Right, right, right. So that creates burnout too. So I think it's also important to remember, even it's if it's small wins to along the way and say look done, look at what we're accomplishing. And, and so that people feel like, oh, what I do matters actually contributing. Right, right. And, and, and, and part, part of what I'm doing is bringing meaning. Right. And I think you were talking about, you know, what Covid did with the great resignation. I think that was a big part of it is that that people started to question the meaning behind what they were doing and does this matter to me? And if it doesn't, why am I here? Right.

You know, and it's interesting, just on the, the radio this morning, they were talking in the, the business part of the program that I was listening to, they were saying that, you know, it appears that more companies are going to be able to give bonuses this year. And, and, but the, then they said, you know, but here's the thing, companies that can't do bonuses, you know, and obviously many companies can't are figuring out other ways to show their employees how much they're valued. So maybe it's an extra day off, maybe it's. They get to work from home, they get to continue working from home, all of those things. So they really are thinking about what are we, you know, what can we do to keep them? Because, you know, we all know that if we have to replace an employee, it's very expensive, you know, and, you know, obviously it depends on what level they are, but. But it is much easier to keep an employee than to replace them. Unless, you know, obviously there are times where, no, we're showing them the door, we're hoping it doesn't hit them on the way out. But yeah, when you've got a good employee, you really want to do everything you can to keep them.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think sometimes companies will make changes thinking that they'll get the people that they don't want to keep will sort of exit on the way, but.

Actually never works that way.

Right? Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

You know, and, and, and, you know, or more importantly, they think, okay, we think this is important, and the employees go. And, and I think in many cases, money is one of those things. Yes, we all want more money, more salaries, but we like those perks and those benefits. And sometimes, you know, those. Those are pretty easy to do, but they make a bigger difference.

Yeah, absolutely. And like you were saying, you know, if somebody doesn't feel valued, the money isn't going to. It's going to fall flat at the end of the day. Right. And that's. And that's part of why I'm passionate about what I do is because I saw this connection between what we do for a living. Mm. That most of our day. Right. We're there the majority of our day. And when we're not fulfilled and we're be like you were saying, that then translates to how we show up when we get home.

Right. We kick the dog, we yell at the kids.

Right, exactly. And then that impacts that group of people. Right. And then that also impacts the communities we live in. Right. So it really has a ripple effect. When one person is unhappy or unfulfilled in their job, it impacts so many other people, and they don't even realize it. Right. But when they are fulfilled, it also impacts so many other people. Right. So I think the things that you're talking about that you heard on the news. Right. About companies looking at, what else can we do besides bonuses that make a difference to get that, give them that extra day. Right. They can spend with their family. Right. So and, and framing it that way of what can they do with it? What's the meaning behind it? Right. Is not. It also shifts, you know, so you're not. You're doing the same exact thing. But how you talk about it can also make a difference. Right.

You know, and, and I love that you did internal communications for Disney. I did internal communications for a very large organization. When I was there, they were the seventh largest world. And, you know, it was, it was so interesting because we were doing the same thing. We were going through a whole bunch of issues, problems, growth, I mean, anything and everything. And you know, of course, the, the most important thing when we're going through things like that is communication, you know, and, you know, and you talk about this in your book. And, and I love it. It's, again, your book is you're an executive, but are you a leader? You know, we tend to think, oh, we're not, we're not going to tell them what's going on. And heaven forbid that we have to tell them we don't know, because then they're going to think there's something wrong. Well, many times we don't know. But if you are able to. To say, you know what? We don't know, but we're figuring it out because, you know, the, the whole thing with, if you don't tell, then they make it up. I mean, I was always so amused, challenged, you know, all those various things when we wouldn't give information to hear what the grapevine came up with, because the grapevine always made it worse than it actually was. And, you know, so I think that's kind of one of the big things is people just want information, even if it's not good information. We just want to know, you know, just tell us and then we'll deal with it.

Yeah, absolutely. I tell my clients often that doesn't matter how big your team is. Right. You could have a team of one, you could have a team of a hundred thousand. Doesn't matter. Whatever size of your team that is your paparazzi, and they are watching everything that you do to see if it's in alignment with what you say. Right? And so, so exactly what you're saying, you know, if saying that you don't know is better than holding it back, because they're gonna, they're gonna believe that you know everything, right? And that you're, and that you're hiding it when you don't know, you. You don't know. Like I hear, please say, oh, well, they're, they have it all figured out. They're just not telling us and there's some kind of conspiracy theory that happens. Right, right, right. And it's better to say, you know what? This is what we're working on. We don't know. We don't have all the answers yet. Here's what I think we'll know and we'll tell you along the way. We'll give you updates. Along the way is going to bring some of that paparazzi noise down because people have the information. They know what you know, they know what you don't know, and they know when you'll. Right. And makes a huge difference, especially when you're going through a lot of change. It's important because that's when people get really uncomfortable. Right. And then they start amping up that paparazzi noise and more when it's. In times of change. Right.

You know, and then the worst thing is if you say one thing and then it actually was something else. You know, biggies, like we're not going to have any layoffs. Right. And then pretty soon we're laying off half the workforce or 1%. I mean, you know, and. And so that's why it's so important to actually be accurate with what you're saying, you know, and. And so it's, you know, so that it very well might be that the statement is, right now we're not planning any layoffs, but we don't know what the future holds. And the people are like, okay, you know, the worst thing is when they feel like you lied to them.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I've worked with organizations going through that process, and it's not easy. Right. And. And I think sometimes employees don't realize how hard it is for the leaders to go through that process. It is. It is tremendously painful for them as well. But I always remind them, right. When we're going through the process, as long as we make people feel respected through the process. Right. That they may not like the outcome, but they feel like they were treated like a human being and they were treated with respect and almost like you would a customer, Right. Or consumer to say, we want them to leave, recommend this place as a good place to work even though they were paid off. Right. So. Or potentially might come back in the future. Right. You never know. So. So to be able to treat them in a way that they feel respected through the process is huge. Right.

Well, and it's every person at every level. You know, I think so many times we think, oh, they don't care about the workers. You know, it's. It's only the senior management, their friends that, that they care about, you know, and, and, and in many cases, that is unfortunately true. But, you know, it is. It really is important to, to. To get down there and, and ask, you know, ask people what do you think what's going on? You know, and, and, and you talk about this in your book is, you know, they need to know that. And we, we kind of talked about this at the start. If they give their opinion and their thoughts, they need to know that it's safe. You know, if they say, oh, my God, Sonya, you have screwed up and you have screwed up bad, then, you know, they need to know that they can say that and not, you know, the next words out of your mouth are, you're fired. You know, and, and, and I think that's, you know, the whole trust thing is, Is very difficult. And, and I think we clearly saw that a lot during COVID when everybody. And, and still when we're not face to face, you know, we, we can put on a pretty good front on Zoom and, you know, all of these things, but, you know, it's much harder when we're not in person.

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think we've seen a lot of companies recognize that and insist people coming, return to work, come back into the office.

Right. At least part time.

Yeah. And I think, you know, executive leadership consulting has always been virtual. Since I started the company in 2007, we've always been virtual, a virtual team, as most of the time we're with our clients. Even when, before things went remote, we were in their office. Yeah.

There was no reason to have an office.

Yeah, exactly. And I think that part that's missing is that when we're working virtually, we're working remotely. We don't take that moment to check in. Right, right. So when. When you're in an office, you maybe you come in, in the morning and you say, hello, and you're getting some coffee and how are you doing? How was your weekend? Right. Those kinds of things. When we come online, it's like, lose that. We just like, hey, we're starting.

Starting, starting. Yep.

And I think it's important to. To bring those things into the meeting when you're working with a team. Right. So, so my team, we work. We work. We work on chat. Right. So, so first thing in the morning, everyone's sending memes to each other and saying good morning and checking in and. And that's how we start every meeting is, you know, how are you doing? Checking in. Right? And if I think that's where people can get isolated, working virtual, so they don't have that, that connection time, that also means you have to make time for it just like you would, you know, if you're coming into a conference room, the first five minutes, everybody's gathering, right. Saying hello, right. And, and to be able to make that time when you're working fully, too, can make it a very successful culture that's working remote. But you did still, you have to do it differently. Right.

You know, and you talk in your book about having that little personal connection, you know, and I think that's where so many leaders or, you know, I shouldn't say that, managers, because this whole thing is, are they a leader or are they a manager or an owner? You know, and what we want them to do is be all of those things. But, you know, so many times they think, well, it's not professional to know what's go, you know, to, to ask those questions or to share that information. And, and I think that is one of the challenges. I mean, you know, we're, but we're not saying tell everything, but it is, you know, oh, hey, I see you've got a new picture of your kids on, on your desk. Or, you know, do you have a good weekend? I mean, just things like that. Because then we know that person cares. You know, of course, the worst thing is if they say, hey, Sonia, how was your weekend? And then before you even open your mouth, I'm onto something else, right? You talked in your book about how the, the one person had, you know, when they were in meetings, everybody was on their phones and on their laptops, paying absolutely no attention to the person who was speaking. And then all that did was make them have to repeat a good portion of what was going on. But, yeah, give you, you know, back to that word, respect. You know, if you ask them, how are you doing? Then, you know, respect that. You need to listen to that answer. Now, you might have to cut them off. I mean, you know, if they're going to give you every detail, but it is. And, and I found that was one of the, the biggest challenges that I found when I got promoted because I had been the co worker, so knew everything, right. We all interacted, we ate together, and then I was the boss. And so how do you draw that line? And, and I think that is one of the challenges that people have. So talk to us a little bit more about that. How do you have those boundaries but still show that you care?

Yeah, I think it, it is just. How would you connect with somebody at a networking event, right. Or in an association that you're in? I think that's. People tend to let their guard down with their peers. They're not telling them every, you know, all the sort of details of their life, right. But they're, they're connecting with them. They know what their interests are. Businesses are outside of work. Right. They, they know what their favorite sports team is. They know what hobbies they have. And one of the things that we do, we have a program called Starting Strong for new executives. And, and I'll, I'll recommend that they as, especially when they're new, but to continue doing it maybe less frequently is to do workarounds, right. And so virtually, it might be just, you know, a check in, like, let's, let's have a, have a coffee or something like that, and just asking, so what are you working on? And letting them tell you what they're working on, yet so much information about what's really happening levels below you doing this. But it also connects, like, oh, you care about what I'm working on and you want to hear what I'm doing. So even if you feel like, oh, I don't, I don't feel like I'm safe enough or I don't feel like I want to be vulnerable enough to have a personal conversation, you can connect with somebody one on one personally about work on, on what they're working on and why it's what they like about it, what challenges are they having, what's interesting about it, right? That's all connecting with them personally as well. Right?

And sometimes it's simple things. You know, when I worked for that big company, my CEO, you know, I get the call, right? You got to love it when. Now I like my CEO. We, you know, we, we got along very well, but he said, you know, I've, I've, I've got something I want to run past you.

Okay.

So I go up to the ivory tower because, of course, I was many levels down below. He was way up on the top level, right? So I go up in there, and the company, we had to use a badge to get in, right. You know, and, and to, to make the elevator work. Now, once you were up, you were pretty much good, but, but yeah, you had to have your badge to get in. And he said, I want to have every badge redone, okay? And I said, oh, sure. And he said, I want to be able to be six feet away from somebody and be able to read their first Name. And, you know, and we did have to have our badges on our bodies at all points in time. And so most people, of course, just wore them clipped to, you know, their collar or something like that so you could be, like, making eye contact and be looking at their badge. But he. He said, I want to be able to call them by their first name. And I. I remember thinking, right. It was just. To me, that was one of the silliest things. It made such a huge difference. He'd get in the elevator, he'd call him by name. He'd, you know, in the hall, he'd say, you know, hi, Bob. How you doing? And the reaction from employees, because, as we know, we all love hearing our own name. And so it was interesting because it was like, okay, now do, like, would I have Deb or would I have Deborah? And so we let people put the name that they wanted on there. Now, it couldn't be, you know, like, Bambi if, you know, and. And, you know, some. Some wonkadoodle name. But, you know, if you. If you weren't, you know, if you were Bill, Will, William, you know, things like that, you could. You could do that. But it made such a huge difference just for him to be able to call people by their first name. And the funny thing was, nobody knew. They all went, oh, my gosh, he knows my name.

Wow, that's amazing. I love that story. Yeah. So. So even something small that can make that. That connection, a huge difference in the culture. Absolutely.

You know, and. And we do see that, you know, when somebody calls us by name, say a networking event or any of those things. That's why we wear name tags.

Right.

You know, and. And so, you know, when you see somebody's, you know, name, you know, call them by name. And I'm one of those people. I'm horrible with names. So I love it when people have name tags on, you know, because then I can pretend that I know who they are. But, you know, and. But that's why it's important when you're attending things, to have your name tag on. Because, you know, we like to think we're very memorable, but we're not always. So, you know, give somebody a little bit of an assistance and let them know. It's funny, I have. My. My husband knows that if, you know, we're meeting somebody, and if I don't immediately say, you know, Sonia, this is my husband Tom, that means I've forgotten your name. And so then he'll introduce himself, and then usually they will say their name Back. But, but yeah, it's just, again, that's one of those little things that makes such a difference.

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. So, so, yeah, it doesn't always have to be everything about their lifestyle or, or your life or they know everything about your life story. It could be little ways of how do you connect people? And we all know how to do it. Right. But we get into this leadership position and, and like, lose ourselves.

We have to be aloof, we have to be professional.

Right, right, right, right, absolutely. So, yeah, I, I think this idea of being buttoned up, it doesn't work anymore. People don't, people don't connect with you. People, that connection, they want that vulnerability. They want to see who you are. And that doesn't necessarily mean like, sharing all your personal information, but just your values, like what's important to you. One of the things that we do with clients is we do a why connection. So we help them figure out what drives them or their why, and then how they bring that why to life or how they internally process information and then ultimately what others can expect from them. And it's, it's a very fast tool that we use with them, and then we help them build a branding statement. And just that information changes the conversation with, with, with each other, with a leader. Right. Because now we understand what drives you, what motivates you. I will see you differently. Right. And, and, and it's, and I have that connection, even though that's not what drives me necessarily. Right. I have that connection with you where I know what motivates you and I can understand you better. Right?

Yeah. It's funny because I wrote Y down in big letters on my notes because I wanted to talk about that, you know, and, and the, the first part of your book is, is about we have to figure ourselves out first before we can do anything else. And I think the why statement, you know, and, and many of us have read Simon Sinek and we know, you know, we, you have to have why statements. But of course, the problem is our personal why statement becomes our business why statement. And, you know, and we forget that we're people, you know, and, and so we don't have our own why statement. So I love that you say we have to figure that out, redefine. And of course those things change. I mean, you know, your why statement in your 20s is very different than your why statement in your 60s, you know, and, and at, in between. So it's, it is, it's so important to have figured yourself out, at least for that point in Time.

Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and we. It's the first step that we do. So when we're working with an individual leader, working with a team, or working at the company level, we always start with why. Right, Right. So. So at that individual level, and I think there's a lot of confusion about what your why is. Like some people will say, oh, my why is my family or why is my faith or my why is I want to change the world? And we call those your who's and your what's. It's not necessarily what drives you. Right? So what drives you is what really intrinsically motivates you. So for me.

Yeah, I was about to say. So Sonia, what is your why statement?

Yes. Yeah. So for me, I believe success happens when I partner with others to make a bigger impact. And how I do that is finding better ways of doing things and sharing them. And ultimately what others can expect is simple solutions. So, so my why is to contribute, right? I want to have an impact. I want to contribute to a bigger cause. People in my line of work, that's pretty common, right. And then how I do that is I'm always looking for better ways, right? Like there's. I'm never going to be satisfied. There's always going to be something better. And then, and then my what is. Is to simplify, right? So looking for how can we make it simpler for people to, to get and understand. You went. And my book is very short. Yes, it was. It's very simple to go through. It's deep. You get a lot of great nuggets there. But it's right in how you do that. And I use that in not only how I talk about me, but also how I talk about our company culture. Because I'm the founder, right? So my why, my why connection impacts the culture of our organization. It does. That is I'm always looking for how can we make a bigger impact for our clients. I'm always changing things. So even in interviews, I say, I tell, I tell them this, you know, this is my why. But that means for you is that because my how is is finding better ways. I'm never satisfied. And that might feel like criticism, and it's not. Right? It's, it's not. It's like that. I, I will do my best to acknowledge great work, but I'm. We're never going to rest on our laurels. That's not who we are company, because that's not who I am. Right. And, and then I say, and if you're looking for something that Is like really stable and doesn't change a lot. This isn't the company for you. That's right. And so, so, so it really helps people in an interview process to know am I the kind of boss that they want to work with? Right, right. Is this kind of company that they want to join and it's great if they don't. Right. Let's get. Right, Right. Yeah.

Why, why mess around?

Yeah. Yeah. And so, so being able to have not only that self awareness but also able to articulate it and share it with people can make a big difference. Right. So, so my, my husband, it also h. Happens, happens to impact your personal life as well. So my husband used to always tell me, oh, you never like my ideas. Right. And before I did this, before I went through this process, it's like, I don't know why you say that. That's not true. Right. And, and what I, what I realized is I, oh, I take his idea and in my head think about how to make it better and then say how, like what, how I think I can make it better without actually acknowledging his idea first. Right. And then when I was like, oh, that's why he thinks I don't like this idea because I'm not actually saying because it's how I only process not actually saying, oh, that's a great idea. And what if we also. Right, right, right, right, right. So these little things can, can just the way we operate with our eye, we don't realize it because that's what drives us and how we operate.

Right.

But can be misinterpreted by other people because they don't understand us. But once they understand, they're like, oh, okay, she's always trying to make it better. That's what this is about. Right, Right.

And your why statement can be pretty self serving. I mean, you know, that's, that's the thing is I think, you know, we get caught up in the. Well, we, you know, we have to be again thinking about the greater good, the greater company. Sometimes somebody's why statement is I just want to last for six months until I can get to retirement. And, and that's okay because then that's going to show you what's important to them, how to motivate them, I mean, all sorts of things. And of course the, the really important thing about the why statement is it is I not we.

Right? Yeah, absolutely. And again, I would say even that six months to retirement is a blunt. Right. It's so. But there are, you know, people that have a why of Doing things the right way, like they're. They believe success happens when they create predictable systems and processes that can be used over and over then. Or it might be the opposite. Right. They. They want to challenge the status quo and be innovative. Right. And that's what motivates them. That's what drives them. And we had a team where we did this process with them individually and, and then we create one as a team. And when I looked at the directory of the whole team and what. And what their why connection was, the CFO had a why of challenge. I was like, that might not be.

The best role I know for a cfo. They want challenging.

Right? Right. Like to always be challenging the status quo. Finance is kind of rigid and structured.

Right. Two and two make four.

And we had, we were able to have the conversation like, is this the right role for you? And it was actually, he was not fulfilled by it. And, and we were able to make some changes in the organization to get him in a role where he could really use the superpower and get somebody who was more motivated by those predictable systems and processes to be in the role that he was in. So he would never have known that, and the company would never have known that without going process.

And he probably would have left. I mean, that's, that's the thing is at some point he would have said, this is, this is not making me want to be at work every single day, you know, and they would have lost a good employee.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Yeah. You know, it's. And, and it comes back to communication and, and just being open and honest with people. You know, I remember I was working with somebody one time on her LinkedIn profile, and she figured she needed to.

To leave.

I mean, that was what she was doing. She was updating her LinkedIn profile so that then she could go out and find another job. And she'd been with the company for a long time and loved it, loved the people, all of those things, but was not fulfilled. And so it was so funny because she calls me and she says, you're not going to believe this. My manager saw my LinkedIn profile. I thought, oh, she's been fired.

Right?

And bless her manager, who said, why don't you want to. Because she had put in there, I want to do blah, blah, blah. And he said, why don't you want to do that here? You know, you can. And she was just. It had never occurred to her because she'd never articulated it, you know, all of these various things, but she saw her job at that company is in this little box. It never occurred to her she could change boxes. And you know, but yeah, like I said, bless that manager. Because many people would have said shoe. But yeah, they, they said, you know, hey, you can stay here and still have your same parking spot, you know, and all your benefits. I mean, all those various things. But you know, it's back to that good old communication thing and being authentic. I mean, you know, there are times where we don't say this is not working, you know, because we do want to keep our job.

Right.

But you know, there are definitely times too where you can say what if, you know, and, and, and just voice that and, and just see where it goes.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think leaders have that opportunity as well. People don't know what they want. Right. And to be able to have that conversation, you know, where do you see yourself going? Like assume they're not going to be in this role for the rest of their life. Right, right. And, and to say where, you know, where do you see yourself going? And it might not be in the same department. Right. It doesn't necessarily mean, and allowing for that to say, you know, are there other areas of the company that you're interested in? Can we start to help if they say yes and we start to help you like networking in those areas and making introductions so you start to learn about what they're doing, work on special projects with them. Right. And, and, and that's how you keep people. Right. Is you're, you're talking about what, what is their vision for themselves if they don't know, help, help them start to articulate it and start and start to figure it out. Sometimes they, they think that it's not even possible to think that there are other opportunities. Like you were saying that example, when they could very well have another opportunity. This person that I was talking about was, oh, they created a whole new job for him that didn't exist before. I love it. And it was like, oh, we actually don't have somebody who is thinking, who's thinking outside the box in innovation and strategy. Let's create that role and put you there. And now he can really help grow the company. So never would have thought of that without saying, you know, where, where, where he was fulfilled. And, but managers can also do that, right? To say what, well, what is it that you're interested in? You know, where do you see yourself going? What intrigues you? What are you curious about? If, if they don't have a full baked vision of, of where they want to go in their Career, you know, to say, well, what, what interests you and what, how can we get you more exposure to that and, and develop you? Because it's going to help everyone for, for, yeah, you to, to connect with. Right.

Yeah. You know, I've, I've seen companies that are criticized when they have, like, good education and training programs and, and the criticism is, aren't you training them to go somewhere else? Well, maybe, but you might also be training them to stay and, and do much better for you and again, be fulfilled, be able to contribute more, all of those things, you know, and, and, and if they do go somewhere else, we'll wish them well. You know, that's, that's the thing.

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And I've seen we used to have this happen at Disney all the time where people would leave and they take, they take it. You know, maybe there wasn't an opportunity for promotion within the company, and so they would go to another company to take that promotion and then they would come back. Right. And, you know, might be three or four years later, but they would come. And you, like, you never know what, what can happen when somebody leaves, you know, creating again, creating that relationship to have, want to refer other people to come work for you, but also to maybe potentially come back someday if they're a great performer. Right.

Yeah. You know, it's. I always find it interesting when somebody not only burns the bridge, but, you know, they, they plow it under and do all sorts of things. Things. And then they wonder, you know, why are things going, you know, not going well? Same company that, that, you know, I worked for, I had this employee who unfortunately had to do layoffs. She was the last one hired, so she was the first one to go. I mean, you know, that was, was essentially what it was. And until the day she left, she was a perfect employee. And then she burned that bridge. I mean, it was, it was bad.

And.

But then the really funny thing was I got the phone calls asking for, you know, the referral phone calls, and I was like, you know, and so I did the corporate speak, you know.

Right.

She started on this date, she ended on this date, and her final salary was blit. And.

Yeah.

And then they would always say, hmm, seems like you're leaving something out. And you know, and even just the tone of voice that I used. Right. Because it's one thing to say, you know, know what? I'm sorry, it is our company policy that, you know, we, we can only say this. But, you know, and, and, and so she, of course, knew and, and so I get the phone call from her, and, and she said, I. I don't understand. I thought you liked me. I said, funny thing, I thought you liked me, too. And, you know, and she. And I actually had a really good chat. And, you know, and then I was more than happy to give her a good referral.

And.

And, you know, because to me, it was a learning lesson for her. But. And you know, what I did was I would say to folks, you know, I have a cell phone. Maybe you would like to communicate with me on that. And then I was more than happy to, because she really had been a good employee. But. But, yeah, you never know. And you also never know, especially in this day and age, who is connected to whom. Right. You know, you might think it's okay to just trash that company and then you discover the next place you're applying for. You know, they know those people and they heard about you, and there's no way they're going to hire you.

Right? Absolutely. Absolutely.

You know, and, you know, back to your book. Again, you're an executive, but are you a leader? And. And I think that really is so true. You know, we're thrown into these positions either, you know, because we create them ourselves, we start our own business, things like that, or we get promoted. And we really don't have any idea, in many cases, what it takes to be that leader. And, you know, like I said, it's short. Each chapter is a page. Folks, this is, this is really easy. And then there's an example so you can go through and go, oh, yeah, but it, you know, you talk about having that shared vision also and communicating it to people. You know, we're not psychic. We don't know these things. So how do we kind of build that one vision, one message type of thing?

Yeah, absolutely. And. And you referred the title. I, I created it to be a little provocative because I think a lot of executives lean on their title and create like, I'm the boss, therefore you do what I say. Right. And it creates. And. And they will, but it creates a culture of compliance and fear. Right, right. Rather than, Rather than passion. Right. So. So connecting to. So, and I often get asked, well, then, what's. What's a leader? Well, a leader is somebody who inspires people to follow them. Right, right, right.

And sometimes the leader is not the boss. That's always interesting.

Absolutely. Very often. Very often. And. And I love those people. Right. And. And, but it's. In order to have them follow you, you have to know where you're going. Right. So that connects to the vision. And I think so many organizations, I don't know, I don't, I don't know why, whether it's consulting companies, it's Google, whatever it is that, that people come up with these vision statements and then.

They put them on the wall. Right, right.

But often they don't mean anything. Right, Right.

Very pithy.

Right, right. Or even to say, we want to be the best in our industry. Okay. Yeah.

And I mean, or so, I mean.

Right, right.

Or, you know, my, my next thought is, well, who doesn't? I mean, you know, that's, that's the thing.

Exactly. And so really crafting a vision that is going to have people want to follow you into that destination that I, and I tell clients, it's called vision for a reason. You need to see it. Right. You need to be able to, hey, what does that world look like when there, what's happening? What are people saying? What, how will we know we're there? Right. And to be able to articulate it in a way that people want to make that happen. Right. Saying that we want to be the best in our industry. For example, that might be good for, for the business owner. That might be good. Or the shareholders, depending on the size. Right. How's that going to get, you know, the, the lowest level employee in your team excited about making that happen? How do they see what they're doing? Connecting to making that happen? Right. That's really drawing that picture and really having everybody feel like not only do they understand this is the purpose of the company, this is why we exist, and this is where we're going with that in our vision. Right. This is why it's exciting. Right. So that's creating the passion for the organization, but here's what you specifically are doing to contribute to that. And so that they see, oh, without me, that doesn't happen right now. I'm engaged now. I, I, what I do matters now. I want to help. Right. And so, so that's the importance of having that shared vision and having be rallied behind it. Right. So that you have like, you have all of these musical instruments, but it's playing one piece of music.

Right.

In orchestra and in harmony. Right.

You know, and, and it is so important that you do live it. I mean, you know, how many times do we know what a company's vision is and how they actually function is complete opposite. You know, they might say to provide the best customer service in the world and, you know, that they provide a horrible customer service or, you know, all these various things. And. And it's okay, again, for those things to change. That's why they shouldn't be written in stone on the wall behind somebody. But. And I think we saw that with COVID I think companies really did go, ooh, you know, we've been going down this path, and now maybe sometimes they were forced, you know, we're going to go down this path instead. You know, And. And. But it's. And I think that comes back to, you know, to me, an organization is a living, breathing entity. And so it changes, you know, so your mission and your vision and all of those things change. Just like your employees, your products, your services, those change also.

Yeah, absolutely. You have to respond to the environment and. And what is needed from the people that you serve, whether that's through a product, service, maybe what they need changes, or maybe there's a disruptor that's come in and in a competitor that you need to address that as well. So you're going to pivot. So what's going to be our differentiator? And so it's really connecting the dots all the way down the road. Right. So when we start with purpose, that becomes the core. Then we look at plan, which is that those. That vision, not just the vision. So from the vision comes the strategy. So. So this is our destination. Our strategy is, how are we gonna. What's our. How are we gonna get. Where are we gonna.

You gotta make money. I mean, you know, you can't get so caught up in the other that. That you don't make money.

Right, right. And then. And then connected to that is, what are our goals, what do we need to make sure get done now to take us in the direction of our vision. And I think sometimes companies create this lofty vision, but they don't take it down to the next totally separate business strategy. Right. Nothing to do with their vision. Right. And if that's the case, then that's not the right vision. Right. They need to be connected. Then each individual person has their own goals that are. They can directly. My goals connect to the company goals, connect strategy, connect to the vision. I can write line all the way through. Right.

I love it.

Well.

Oh, my gosh, Sonia, we have to continue this conversation some other time because I think it's so important and, you know, and maybe we want people to be thinking about this right now for New Year's resolutions. Right. You know, look at your own company, your department, your family, I mean, all of these things and figure this out, you know, are you on the right path? If not what do you need to do to change it? You know, and, and so that's. That I think is, is so important. But until we talk again, you know, if somebody wants to, you know, we've, we've talked about your book. You're an executive, but are you a leader? Of course we will have a link to it in the show notes. But you know, how do people find you and how do they connect with you and then what are the services that, that you provide?

Yeah, so, so we work at three different levels. We work at the individual leader, we work with teams, and then we work at the company wide level.

Okay.

We call it red thread leadership where we take the purpose of the company, starting with why and then we run that through everything they do at each of those levels. Right. So to make sure that they have that passion at the end. Right. And so if, if people want to learn more, the best place to go is our website. It's our one stop shop for everything. So if you want learn about your why you can, you can find out how to do that. If you want to learn more about our services, you could do that. You want to connect with me? All the social media links are on our website and that's@executorleader.com also have access to the books and we have a ton of free resources from webinars and online trainings, articles, all kinds of things that you can do to increase your leadership and connect your business strategy and your, to create faster growth, you know.

And, and I'm going to put forth a premise here that we can all be leaders. Doesn't matter if you have that title or that position. And, and just think if we all were leaders. You know, I live in Atlanta and last week we had the memorial service for Roslyn Carter. And I think that was one of the things that, that really struck me was that she, you know, one of her big premises is how can you lead? And you know, and I think that was just, you know, that was, that really was. And, and then more importantly, and how can I help you? I think you. And, and so if we all keep that in mind, you know, how can you lead and how can I help you? Just think what we could do.

Absolutely, absolutely. I love that. I know.

Such fun. Such fun. Well, Sonia, you know, we do have just a couple minutes left. I do look forward to having you on again. I think this is a great conversation to have. But do you have any final thoughts that you want to leave everyone with?

Yeah, I think it all starts with your core. So what is your purpose, whether you're an individual contributor, whether you're a leader, whether you're, you have your own company, whether you are an executive in a company, what is your purpose? What is your team's purpose? What is your company's purpose? And how can you connect that to what fulfills you in life and also makes you money? Both. Right?

I love it because we need money. We do. And it's okay to say we need money. Well, I'm Deb Krier. I've been having such a fun discussion with Sonia Shelton, sorry about that. The CEO of Executive Leadership Consulting. And until next time, everyone have a great day.

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