#101: Dealing With Infidelity: Why Affairs Happen and How To Recover

Contrary to popular belief, affairs have very little to do with sex. You shouldn't, you know, do your best to take it personal. It's really hard to not take a personal, like somehow you're responsible for this happening. No, it's because of how everybody is showing up in the relationship and the dynamic is being shared between the two of you that's created, you know, one person to say, hey, I'm going to risk this. I'm going to cross a line. I'm going to break these promises that we've made to each other. And that is always the decision of the person that's cheating, not the person who is standing by, trying to do the best.

Hey, thanks for coming. Welcome to the Love Shack.

Hey, welcome to the Love Shack. This is a little old place where we get to get together, explore fresh perspectives and eavesdrop on juicy conversations to discover the things that really matter and have a little bit of fun along the way. We are going to talk about effect affairs. I don't know if you've noticed lately, but there have been a lot of cheating, scandalous cheating going on. And from high profile celebrities to everyday people, it seems like everyone is talking about infidelity right now. But why do people cheat? Why does this happen? What is it about our human behavior that causes us to go there and have so much on the line that we're willing to risk for it? There's a lot of myths out there about what drives people to be unfaithful, but the truth is there's no one reason why people cheat. Sometimes it has to do with the lack of satisfaction in the relationship, while other times it's simply an opportunity that presents itself and I decide to just go, what the heck? Whatever the case may be, it's important to remember that affairs are often complicated and nuanced and there's never a simple explanation for why they happen.

So, yeah, this is a juicy conversation, as Stacy shared in our intro. And we're going to have our daughter and producer Brooke be a part of the show. This was her idea, which I think is really good because it's very relevant and it's trending everywhere. And so she's going to present us kind of the, the meat and the details of these. I think it's three specific affairs and then she's going to ask us some questions. So let's welcome Brooke, our daughter and producer, onto the show.

Hi.

She's always behind the scenes, but not always on the front side.

Hey, voice from the Dark. This episode, ladies and gentlemen.

So all Right, Brooke, fire away. Tell us what we need to know. And by the way, you guys, this is not canned. We have no idea what Brooke is going to share or fire at us. All we know, Tom and I, is that she's going to fire questions at us about infidelity and about some of the things that are happening right now in real time.

So in the past couple of weeks, there's been three affairs that have happened that, you know, are in the news media. First one is Adam Levine. Second one is the famous basketball coach.

Of the Boston Celtics.

Yes. And he cheated on Nia Long, his fiance. And the last one that just came out yesterday, the day before is Ned Fulmer. He is host of the Try Guys show. And this one is particularly shocking to me because I followed the Try guys probably for 10 years, and he was the wife guy. So that's a new term that's just being kind of coined right now is called wife guys. And I guess all three of these are considered wife guys, which are guys that talk about being married all the time. They talk about being in love with their wives. They talk about loving to be fathers. They talk about, you know, just how great their relationship is. And I find it kind of interesting that three wife guys are the ones who had the affairs, because a lot of people are saying, you know, you have to be suspicious now of. Of everyone who makes their relationship their main personality trait, because it's kind of. They're comparing it to how some people who always posted their relationship is great on social media. It probably isn't so great behind closed doors. What do you guys think about that?

I mean, there's some truth with that. So my cautionary tell is that it will never be all one way or it will never all just be the truth. There will be people who will be so proud of their relationship and their family and want to share it and post it and talk about it, and it will be a huge part of who they are simply because they love to share it. That will still be true. And yes, whenever somebody seems to be overzealous about, you know, presenting or convincing us that their relationship is the best thing that's ever happened oftimes, it's frequent, we're trying to convince ourselves, actually we know that there's some things that are going on on the backside. And so I'm trying to convince myself that this is a good thing so that I stay in it so that I can continue to juggle all the balls that are happening. And, you know, Brooke, this makes me think of A previous relationship that you were in prior to Jack. Right. I remember us sitting on the couch and you trying to tell me all the wonderful things about your relationship when the truth was you were absolutely miserable in this relationship but you didn't want to face the fact that maybe you were going to have to let this go. So that is also both of those traits are very human of us. And that's why we said in the beginning of the intro, you know, it's not as simple as just saying, oh, so now everybody who talks about their relationship, you know, and is proud of their relationship and their family and that's a huge part of their life as a cheater. No, don't be sucker for that. Just remember that yes, there might be something that you want to observe and dig a little deeper and pay attention, but let's not start labeling everybody who loves their relationship and their family as a cheater because that's not the truth. Yeah.

And I would just stack on top of those really good points and shares that as you love to say, babe, if we're human. And last time I checked, everyone that's on this call is or listening.

Yeah, all the aliens can log off now. We're not talking.

Exactly. We make messes. We're mess making machines. So even if you have all this stardom and success and whatever, it doesn't, no one gets the hall pass again. And I am not advocating how these were in the three situations were handled. But what I'm more importantly saying is regardless where we are in our life journey, it's been my experience and these years on the planet, I've got a few that we all run into issues, you know, we do. And so however we handle them is really the significant, you know, difference maker, I think. And it shows you. Excuse me, one more thing before I was so almost rudely interrupted, but I shut it off, ladies and gentlemen, is that it shows you to the risk that we will take when something is moving with inside of us. I. That's the part I find most, you know, all three of these people, there was a lot at stake and consequently there's been a lot that has happened because of these choices. Yes. And so just shows us what we will do when our needs are not getting met or whatever has prompted us to step over that line. To me it's like wow, it was. You like to say, babe, our needs are going to get met one way or the other. And I'm not saying people's needs weren't but. But whatever chose these people to make These decisions with all that as that was at risk and they knew what was at risk. Come on, in this day and age, it's hard to hide things like, wow, you know, it, it happens at all levels.

I like what you said, babe. I mean, we are human first, regardless of what are the hierarchy of labels, right? We're human first and then we're the.

Actor, actress, you know, famous coach, success, famous athlete, famous musician.

And we tend to put people on a pedestal in these areas and think, oh, well, because they have the money, the, the wife, the husband, the position.

The house, the car.

They're not going to make messes. Yes, they are. So I would, I would err on the side of, oh, we're humans and if there's a way to mess it up, we probably will do that. And there is this aspect of us that's called an emotional body. I don't know if you've heard of it. Like, emotions are like real and they're part of being human. As much as we don't like to give them any airtime and oftimes, what happens is we do things because we're running out of emotional gas in other areas. So, you know, affairs happen because I'm stressed, I'm flatlining, I don't have any inspiration or excitement or my emotional needs at home are not being met, or I'm struggling with feeling significant, I'm feeling, with feeling validated or important or valued. I mean, and all of these emotions are going to drive some kind of an offset in us as the human beings that we are. And it doesn't mean it's the person or the partner's fault. It has nothing to do do with that. What it does mean is that the person who is cheating, which I think we need to have more conversations about the cheater, what's going on inside of them. A tremendous amount of internal conflict. Right? Disappointment, probably some insecurity perhaps, and maybe the lack of, you know, desire or excitement or inspiration or something else in their lives. It can come from a lot of places. But I can tell you that if you can ever understand or have a cheater tell you the story as to why they've ended up doing what they've done, it will always make sense on the front side. It makes no sense to the people trying to figure it out and point fingers. But when you allow them to tell the story of how it all played out for them, it will always make sense. And you'll go, oh, okay. And the stories are varied and the reasons are varied and the the experiences in that and you know, so all three of these, although they have these things in common, I guarantee you there are very unique nuances that are happening in each one of them. That they were to tell you their story about why they cheated and why they decided to do this and put everything at risk. We would all go, ah, that makes sense. That makes so much sense.

I agree. And I also want to point out that we don't. I think it's important to remind the person that has been cheated on that it's never their fault. It's never that person's fault, you know?

Well, I, I want to, if I may again, all things are never one way. I want to remind you that, yes, you are only responsible for your part in it. And relationships are always a relationship with ourselves first and then with another person we're co creating. So there is a piece that is your responsibility that you need to discover for yourself. But it's typically not ever what you think it is. It's not because you're not beautiful enough or handsome enough or strong enough or don't make enough money. No, no, no. It's other things. It's maybe because you're, you're a complete. And people go, what, people don't cheat when you're a pleaser? Oh the heck they do. Maybe it's because there isn't enough safety in the relationship to talk about and say what you need to say. Because our belief in our relationship is that if we avoid conflict, the relationship is going to be great, it's going to be perfect, it's going to be wonderful. Or hey, I sometimes don't realize what that thing I do in my relationship, meaning the thing I do when I emotionally get pressed. And I sometimes don't understand how that interplays with my partner. And so as we learn and discover these things after infidelity, I mean, infidelity can be the greatest thing that's ever happened to a relationship because it was flatlining anyway, typically. And it has very little to do with sex. Contrary to popular belief, affairs have very little to do with sex. You shouldn't, you know, do your best to take it personal. It's really hard to not take a personal, like somehow you're responsible for this happening. No, it's because of how everybody is showing up in the relationship and the dynamic is being shared between the two of you that's created, you know, one person to say, hey, I'm going to risk this. I'm going to cross a line, I'm going to break These promises that we've made to each other. And that is always the decision of the person that's cheating, not the person who is standing by trying to do the best. And I would say that's important to say as well when we're talking about these things is that I truly believe this after being with hundreds of couples who have had affairs, that everybody really is doing the very best they know how.

Yeah.

That a reason the person cheats is because they don't want to, you know, disappoint or you know, upset or face or take on the truth of what they're really doing. And so in protection of the whole, they will go underground or in secret with it. And you know, that has tremendous amount of consequences and throwback. But the person who's there saying, I can't believe this is happening, when we start digging into the whole conversation, they start to see places where they know it wasn't good for them either. Right. It's. It's not such a, such a surprise when it probably is initially, but when we start really kind of uncovering the dynamic of the relationship, the co creation that it is, there's always this hopefully, because that's how we heal from it as. Oh, I get it now. I understand. Not that you condone it, not that it's okay. Not that it doesn't have a tremendous amount of ripple effect. But you know, as you said in the beginning, it really doesn't have anything to do with you because you're not the one who stepped out to choose to cheat. But it is some kind of a reaction or a response to the person who is, for whatever emotional driver is going on acting out. And for whatever reason, in their own narrative, they decided that it's okay to do this. They've justified it and believe me, they've thought about it for thousands of hours long, you know, typically long before it's happened.

You know, and I'm. I'm inspired just to also share stack on what I shared before is, is also there's. There is absolutely a. A disconnect. When we view people that are successful, like I shared in other areas of their life, then we automatically would associate. Well, they're absolutely love too. And like, well, based on what have they. Have they invested the same amount of time and money and devotion to love as they had in their success of their career or their acting or their music? I would assert, no, they have not. None of us are born this way. Just like these people weren't born this way in their respective success in their Careers and, and chosen path.

Another, another thing that people are talking a lot about on social media is, is the power dynamics in each of these specific affairs. There's a very clear power disparity in each of them. So Adam Levine, by the way, Adam Levine's affair is alleged. There's no. He denies it, she confirms it. So it's he, he said versus what she said. So we have to say it's. It's alleged. You know, but he, he's a famous celebrity, she's an Instagram model. So just right there, that's a huge power imbalance. You know, he, he's famous and has all these things at his disposal and, you know, she doesn't. So that's, there's no even footing there in that one. And then in the other two, both the Boston Celtics coach and Ned Fullmer, they both had an affair with an employee, which is, I mean, that's the definition of a power imbalance. You can't, you, you, many experts are saying there can actually be no form of consent in that relationship because you're, there's automatically a sense of fear when your boss is the one coming on to you. You know, like, you don't have, you don't necessarily necessarily have the same set of, like there, it's not equal footing because you're, there's. There could be retaliation. There could be all of these things that happen when you're having an affair with your boss that wouldn't happen in a normal relationship. So the Ned Fulmer situation, specifically, that is why many people are speculating that he was let go from the try guys because they did a thorough investigation of his relationship with the employee and they found there was no way forward because that was a huge HR issue and there would be no way to make it okay, you know. So what do you guys think about that?

I have a question first before I answer. Was the, the employee let go as well, or.

It hasn't been confirmed who it was, even though most people know because their pictures and videos came out, it was an associate producer who also has been in many videos and people know her very well. So she can't be let go because that would be illeg to fire her for having an affair with her boss. Excuse me, that's against the law to do that. You know, they can only fire the boss who was having the affair. So. But I imagine she wouldn't want to stay on because that would be incredibly awkward now that everybody knows, but no one knows what that situation is.

And the power dynamic, it was to be the boss, the quasi boss that was supposed to be the responsible one.

Yeah.

And. Right. Hold the line and the rules and be the governing leader of the company.

One more thing to add is that Alexandria, the associate producer that Ned was allegedly having an affair with, was in a relationship for 10 years and engaged and at the time, and that relationship supposedly has been called off because her, her fiance has deleted all the pictures of them together on his Instagram page. So they both blew up. They both blew up their lives for this? Yeah.

Yeah. Well, as they say, love can be very messy and it has been for ages. We are not going to ever take this experience out of the human experience. It will not happen. So am I against affairs? Yes. Am I, am I saying that affairs are here to stay? Yes, I'm saying both. So as much as we want to dissect it and slice and dice it, we're never going to take this out of the equation of being a human being. It's part of us being human. Having said that, in the power dynamic, and you're not going to like my answer here, but I'm going to be honest with you, just like I did about everybody having a piece of responsibility in the relationship, not for the reasons that you think, but because that it's a co creation and everybody has a tremendous amount of opportunity to learn and to explore and understand more about themselves and their relationship. And power dynamics are very erotic. So if we have fantasies, a power dynamic between, you know, me, the patient and the doctor is erotic for many of us, most of us. And so in that oft times, yes, people in high places know they shouldn't be doing what they're doing. And the people that somewhat fraternize with them also know that they shouldn't be doing that. But there's something exceptionally erotic about that as human beings. And so that's why I say this power dynamic, we can judge it, we can point fingers at it and we can label it, but it's probably never going to be removed from the human experience. And if you just think of any kind of role play that we do as human beings, you know, there's always an imbalance of power. So we're not going to overcome that one as much as we want to point fingers at it.

Yeah. But we can also all agree that it's not okay.

Yes. And if you're going to do that, then, then set it up in an appropriate manner where it is somewhat of a role play, maybe between your partner. Right. I mean, we can use our imagination, be A lot more creative than that, for sure. But it is going to continue to be part of the experience. And it, like, like Tom has already highlighted it is truly fascinating. If we were to just take an exhale, right. And not get so spun up about these things and look at it objectively. Look at we. What we as human beings are willing to risk for an erotic experience like that. Like, it's huge. Like everything. We've risked everything. And even when we risk it, we don't know the ripple effects of those risks. And yet we're still willing to step in and go there. So this is a powerful drive that we have within us that we need to find better outlets for. And I honestly think talking more about eroticism and sex and getting comfortable with that would be very helpful to understanding the power dynamics of it as well. Instead of just acting it out, you know, as we say, and having that.

Situation happen in real life, like.

Yes, yes, exactly. So, you know, it's very much like the dynamics in communication and dialogue and co creation in our relationships, ironically, where if I don't have the ability to talk and to share and to open up and to get my needs met, then I'm going to take it out on you instead. I'm going to get passive aggressive, I'm going to. Right. Get pushy, I'm going to. I'm going to collapse. I'm going to do all of these things. I'm not talking about it, but I'm acting it out because the emotion is there, it's real and it's going to move through me. And so it is with eroticism, racism and sex and sexual engagement. I think if we were to talk about it and we were to understand it more, that would be the answer, in my opinion, to having less and less of this power dynamic just being acted out. And we're hoping it's just going to go well.

Yeah, I'm focusing mostly on Ned, Ned Fulmer in this episode because number one, he admitted to it. So we have more to speak about, you know, so Ned posted a statement kind of apologizing. In my opinion, it was a very weak apology, but I'm sure it was written by a lawyer, you know, so he had to be careful. And then his wife posted a statement saying, thank you for those who have reached out to me. Really appreciate it. Me and Ned want to focus on our children and our family and our marriage and please respect our privacy. So then tmz, you know, those idiot paparazzi took a whole bunch of pictures of him the next Day, this, them being together, Ned and his wife Ariel out exercising, and then them again later in the day. So a lot of women especially are ganging up on Ariel and saying, if she stays with him, Ariel's dead to me. Or I can't even. So how can she accept him doing this to her and then staying with him? But number one, my question is, why would people get mad about someone wanting to save their family? You know? And number two, why is that our natural instinct as women especially to be like, kick that cheater out the door? You know, that's. For the most part, I would say that was. That is what people would suggest. What do you say about that?

Well, I think a lot of it has to just do with our human need to survive. And so if there's something that's happening that's hurt us or is painful or, or threatening, our immediate answer and immediate reaction is, cut it out, get rid of it, run away, be done with it, cut it off. And so, you know, there is the reaction to what do you mean you're gonna stay? Like, that's crazy. That's kind of like, you know, sleeping with the enemy. You know, that's crazy that he's. What makes you think he's not gonna do this again or she's gonna do this again, et cetera. E. And so there's. I just want you to see, that's how we handle risk. If it's too scary or we feel overwhelmed or it's too much risk on the table, then our immediate response is to go, kick it out, get rid of it, be done with it, don't ever go there again, don't ever talk about that again. And, and I want you to see that this is also a cognitive bias where it has to be, I'm going to stay or I'm going to go. There is no, like, let's see how this goes. Let's see what we can do with this. Let's see if there is a place to come to new understanding or new places where we can rewrite our agreements in regards monogamy in our relationship and what that's going to look like. And so there is something that I just want everyone out there to remember that as much as we love to throw around what we would do in any given situation or circumstance, there's only two people actually. One, that person that's trying to work on this relationship that's going to have to live with the consequences of that decision, and that is her. And if she's feeling like she wants to Take on the risk to see what's possible, to see if she can repair her family, her life and her relationship, then she has the right to choose that, regardless of what everybody else thinks about it, because she's the only one that's going to live with the aftermath and the choice and the consequences of that decision. And we make it more difficult by thinking that we, not having had the experience, know her answer. And then we make it more difficult by, you know, pushing and trying to create doubt in her about her decision. And then the, the bigger question for me is why do we do that? Why. Why do we become so impassioned to, you know, pushing people or manipulating people by creating doubt in them to do what it is we think is correct and we stop living our own life. Like, like manage your life. And that's a job that all of us need to do, right? And it's usually a full time job for most of us. And ofttimes, if I'm getting all twisted up and impassioned about pushing somebody that I barely know that I follow in social media or I, so, you know, I'm, I'm following in media overall and I'm getting all pissed off and plugged in about what they're not doing because I just know their answer. I lovingly suggest to you that no, you don't. And I would encourage you to get back to focusing on your own life because this is a diversion in regards to thinking about making choices regarding you, your own life, your own love life. And sometimes we act these things out too, Brooke, and we become very impassioned about that because we've been through a difficult time and we're still acting out the trauma, the hurt, the betrayal, the anger, et cetera. Each of us have to find our own way through this thing, right? I always say if you feel like you've got it in the tank to risk another round to see what's possible, then do it better to do that and know that there's a sense of completion and that you've tried everything that you know how to do through some mentorship and support and then call it that would be much, much better for everyone involved because you feel complete. You're going to take away the regret. There's never going to be this idea that maybe if we'd have gotten some help or we had just given it a year, we, you know, would have seen if we could uncover some of the things as to why it is we arrived here in this relationship, we could save our family. We forget that love and Family and the investment into that financially, emotionally, spiritually and in every part and piece of our lives is a lot. And we don't just lop it off like it's never happened and run away. You know, much like our little survival brain says we can, there's going to be effect, there's going to be aftermath, regardless of how this goes. So even if she were to say, you're done, I'm going to kick you out, it's not over. There's no way. You've got kids, you've got finances, you've got love, you've got healing, you've got grief, you've got betrayal, you've got disappointment. And we don't just, just whop that off and be done with it and move on and then, and then be happy again. It doesn't work like that.

Well, and they have a very thick circumstance where now everybody on the Internet hates her husband. Everyone on the Internet is saying they've lost respect for her if she decides to stay with him. And everyone on the Internet knows that they have like a three year old and a one year old little boy. So those three things, you know, a normal affair is hard to navigate. Imagine having that to navigate on top of the affair. So I wish everyone would just give.

Them a break, you know, give them some grace. Yeah. And I would just add, you know, Brick, you said, why is it that, you know, in this case, women are, a good majority of them are saying, you know, if you stay, you're, you're crazy, or some version of that. I would say the same thing often happens when two people make the difficult decision, at least it was in my case, to not, not stay married, to. Not to, to end this long term relationship. Invariably you'll hear somebody say, well, you're gonna make him pay, you're gonna make her pay, aren't you? I think, well, like, well, is there another option? I mean, like, is there? We're keeping a scorecard here. There again, the damage and destruction that you're going to choose to go through if you go that route, I can promise you is going to be like napalm through you and your entire family.

Family. Well, as we say over here in the love shack, you know, if one person's got to pay, we all pay. And when we start, because of how you're going to show up to make them pay, there's going to be repercussions on the person who's trying to make the person pay. And then there's, you know, what you're creating as far as the drama and. And, you know, the. The price that's being paid, whether that's emotionally or financially, oftentimes it's both. Maybe it's a reputation type of thing. Regardless of what it is we're trying to impose on somebody to pay. And I get it. It's very human of us to want somebody to pay. Like how that's going to right the wrong, and it doesn't. The emotional devastation and destruction is already done. I would encourage anyone who might find themselves in this situation to recognize and realize that your best place to move forward and out of the pain is to do just that. Move forward. Understand it, you know, understand the narrative, the story. Understand, you know, what happened. How did we arrive here? Stay away from. Give me the intimate details of your experience, because that's going to turn into a horror picture and haunt you. I don't know if we're given super tips on this podcast, but I can't help myself if. If you're in the. In a place where somebody has cheated on you, please don't ask them to give you all the details about where they were and how they made love and how it went down. And. And because it's not going to help you. The why questions can be thrown in the garbage can. What you need to focus on is, you know, what happened. You know, what was the narrative that made it safe for you, or at least in your own mind, to have this affair? What was it motivated by? What's your story about our relationship? You know, how did it roll? You know, your experience at home? What was your experience with us? Because then we're talking about the emotional drivers of the situation. And then, of course, there's always two. Two stories, right? Two narratives. There's another story that's playing out as well. And I find that in infidelity recovery, everybody needs to understand the story that was at play inside of themselves and that they were collectively experiencing in their relationship. And then we have to find ways to rewrite that story and to learn better ways, ways of moving forward in support of each other, in connection with each other, and rewrite those monogamy agreements altogether. That is the way through. And so making somebody pay is going to be very destructive to the person who's doing it as well as the person you're trying to do it to. And I promise you, in my whole life and in the biographies and studies that we do, I've never seen somebody go there. It's finally enough. You've paid enough. Your penance has now been paid, and we're going to go off and create a new relationship and it's going to be better than ever. Right? Right. It just doesn't go that way. So I get it. We go there because we're hurt, but it is. It is not the direction to go. It is absolutely not.

Another. Another thing people are saying is it's almost like they wanted to be caught because Ned and his mistress supposedly went to a Harry Styles concert in Madison Square Garden, which there would be a lot of audience overlap there, meaning a lot of Harry Styles fans probably also watch try guy videos. So he would be a very recognizable person in that audience, and so would she, because she's in the videos and there. And. And pictures got taken of them there. And also they went out to a bar after and were kissing and pictures and videos got taken of that event too. And that's how the whole thing got discovered by his wife and her fiance. So. And I agree. And also, Adam Levine was sending messages from his verified Instagram account like his main one. So that's very easily discovered because if you just take screenshots, it's out to everyone in the world. And the Boston Celtics coach was dating an employee that probably everyone knew about. So why do we do these in ways that are so easily discoverable?

Well, so if we go back to the emotional driver, the one thing that we do know about affairs in the world of human behavior is that they. They really are. Well, let me see. I'm gonna. I'm gonna rewind. I'm gonna do this in a different order, if I may. The short answer to your question is when we are incongruent with ourselves emotionally, we're going to act it out. And so we, especially as it goes on, it takes a tremendous amount of effort and energy to live a daytime life and then a life in secret. It as. And so we become in this place of acting out and incongruent with ourselves, inevitably we do give ourselves away in some form or fashion eventually. And I think it. It really boils down to getting lazy. We. We get really, really tired of being hyper sensitive or hyper attuned into trying to protect it and keep it a secret, because that's a tremendous amount of emotional draw. And then we start making up illusions like it's no big deal, nobody's going to notice, you know, and so we get very, like, complacent and lazy the longer that it goes on, just because we don't have the emotional gas in the gas tank to keep continuously covering it up in that Hyper aware, hypersensitive, thinking about all the thousand different ways that we could get caught. Finally there's a place inside of all of us as a human being when we get exhausted and we go, whatever, you know, screw it. And so that's usually about the time we give ourselves away also. So that's, that's, that's, that's the alignment with ourselves. Right. I kind of like to say our souls, you know, the, the person that we have the capacity to be and are being, it's, it's at some point in time gonna have its way with us and it's gonna rat us out and we give ourselves away all the time in lots of different places. The second component of that that I want to say is that affairs are, are generally a wake up call for the relationship that is currently playing out or it's a breakup call and the person doesn't know how to say, I'm not happy in this relationship anymore. And so they'll act it out and get caught in an affair or some egregious other place in their lives and then we have to have the conversation because I don't have it in me to just bring it to the table and tell the truth. A wake up call is, I don't know how to tell you I'm not happy in this relationship. I love you. I want this to work, I want this to go well. And until I can figure out how to do that, I'm just going to get my needs met right over here and hopefully we can figure it out later.

Bleeding out the back, that's what we.

Call bleeding out the back. Absolutely. So I hope that that answers that question. It's going to be inevitable at some point in time. Generally, if affair goes on long enough, we're going to give ourselves away.

Well, and I think it would confirm that. And what Brooke just shared every one of those. And that's not just those three. That's, I mean, how is it always discovered because of that exact premise that you just shared, that that's just how it rolls.

Well, and you know what's coming up for me historically is, is Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky. I mean, come on, you're letting this happen right there in the White House, in the Oval Office, and you don't think that you're going to get caught at some point in time. And I think it's a burden to carry and we want to get caught. We, we, we want to be done with this and we don't know how to turn it around even Though logically we would say, no, I don't. No, I don't. Emotionally, yes. In my survival mode, place of being a human being. Yeah, I'm going to start giving myself away and just get it. Quite frankly.

Some folks need to do some emotional push ups.

Yeah.

Another, another thing that a lot of people are doing. They are creating like these compilation videos of like the most loving moments between Ned and ARIEL on the YouTube videos of the try guys like them hugging and kissing or, you know, like having fun together, laughing together. And then they're saying, if Ned and Ariel, if Ned cheated on Ariel, then love doesn't exist for anybody. Or if. If Adam Levine and Bahati, his wife, are breaking up, then love is dead. Which has a tendency to happen at every single celebrity breakup or every single celebrity affair, which just, you know, adds a lot of pressure to everyone in this situation. But why do you think we, like, idolize these couples and then when they break up, it's so devastating to us when the reality is they're humans just like us too. Why do we do that?

I think we love to see people living the life that we have longed to live for a really long time, and we idolize them and live vicariously through them. And the more we respect them or idolize them, the more we put them on a pedestal and think that they're incapable of being a human being. And oft times, when we put somebody on a pedal pedestal, we're really disappointed by the humanness that we eventually see. And remember what we said in the beginning of this conversation. We're a human first and then we're a celebrity second. Or a lawyer or a doctor or a musician. I mean, and so there's always a human component in that. And I think that that is a piece of understanding that we just don't talk enough about. Right. We believe in our own minds and in our own illusions that when we arrive at a certain station or status that then everything works out and everything's going to be fine. And when we see a couple or people in our lives that are doing the things that we think that when I arrive at this point in time, it's going to all work out and then we see the whole thing crumble. It's so deflating to us. And we didn't realize that we were building it in an elus, an illusionary, imaginative place in the first place.

Well, it's what we talk about all the time. I mean, you have this famous, you know, day. Not famous, excuse me, you have this significant day, even just let's say just us normal people, you know, put that in quotation. But you know, you have this wonderful ceremony, marriage, you know, whatever it is, you know, six to eight hours maybe on, on a long ceremony. And then, you know, as the fairy tale goes, well, how did those people are. How are they going to live the rest of the years? Well, of course they're going to be happily ever after after, right?

I mean, and the bigger the wedding, the better the, the better the marriage, right?

And then we say, well, how about if you just took a small percentage of that 25 to 50 to or greater thousands of dollars for that six to eight hours. Again, I love a great party. We just went all went to one, you know. But how about if we then realize we're going to take some investment of that same monies now and start applying that every year for the rest of those years.

Well, I think, I think this is where maybe we ought to pause right here and have a little education about love.

Wait. Well, I have. I also have a list of questions about affairs that I want to ask you too.

Okay. Let me just say this though, if I may. Love is not something. It is a set it and forget it. And we think it is. We think that if, if the two of them were madly in love and they were, I guarantee you, all that precious love that you see between them, the joking, the, the flirting, the, the passion, all of that, that's real. And it is. Love is real. And love also progresses, it transforms, it rolls over. And they were not the couple when the affair occurred. They were not the same couple that they were when they first came together and their relationship was blossoming. So love is nothing that is a forget it, you know, set it and forget it. It's not a stagnant piece. And in fact, all of us are, are fighting a little thing called entropy, which means the world in which we live in, like it or not, it's as principled as gravity. We are always going to be fighting digression. You don't have anything that just sits there, for example, as simple as like locking your house up and going to live somewhere else for a year. I guarantee you when you come back, it's going to be dirty. There's going to be mayhem, even though nobody's been in it. It's going to smell funny. You know, there might even be some plumbing issues even though the toilet's never been flushed. You know, there's. And a car is the same way where our bodies are the same way as we age. You know, we're breaking, we're fighting that more and more and more that natural digression and relationships and love are like that. So if we get put it into the set it or forget it kind of mindset, it's going to digress by nature, right? If I, I don't do things to constantly renew it, to feed it, to focus on it, it's going to digress, right? So we can be madly in love in the beginning, and as we start clocking off years, not knowing and understanding how love works or the things that I need to focus, keep it thriving, then it's going to digress.

Also, I think we don't ever, ever appreciate the things that come along with having a mature relationship. Like there are some good things about it that don't exist at the beginning of a relationship. I saw a really beautiful TikTok the other day of a husband and wife speaking about, you know, what's something good that happened the longer that you're together. And the man said, when you're in the beginning of a relationship, you, you know, it's really fun and you have butterflies and stuff. But like, there comes a point where you're excited for the date to end so you can go back to your own house and be yourself and like, relax and, you know, not have to be putting on that show. But then when you're together for a long time, you don't have to do that anymore. You can be your exact true self with your partner. You don't need to go away to be, to be able to like, fart or poop or, you know what I mean? Or laugh, your real laugh, or all of these things that you feel like you have to hide in the beginning. And that's a beautiful thing. That's a beautiful thing that you can be your true self and be fully relaxed with your partner. And there's no way that you can have that in the beginning of your relationship, you know?

Absolutely. It's something that's developed over time and will continue to be developed over time. I mean, you know, unless you're.

Unless your wife, but then girlfriend is a former or a current colon therapist, then maybe she would be more comfortable in farting more quickly in.

Are you talking about me right now? Did we just digress?

I thought maybe the audience might like, oh, my. Sorry, honey, I'm having some fun.

And I, I was just gonna say I feel like even. Even though you and I have been together 12 years now, that we have found just recently a whole new level of intimacy and safety with Each other. And so this continues to be progressive.

As we grow our relationship, if you're working on it. Absolutely. I could not agree more. I mean, you can reach me. Talk about into Missy, into the all of you. I see. And vice versa. That to me is what I think we're all after some version of that. It's the all of me that can see into the all of you. And by I mean that is the whole spacesuit man, the whole deal.

And that is not just. That is just not romantic talk like that's available to all of us. And I love to always put a physical anchor to these sometimes a fear etherical romantic notions. It is just the same as if I were to become very, very educated, in tune with my body physically, right. And the more that I do it, the more I can enjoy my body, the more access I have to physical things because I have the strength and the balance and the understanding. And then if I get off track, I know exactly what to. To get myself back on track. If by chance I, right. Get a little wobbly, need. And. And I think love is just like that, you know, it's. It's something, it's an expansive quality and it's continuing to need to be nurtured and taken care of and tended to. And the set it and forget it is. Is an illusion and it's something that we've got to let go of. And, and it's never all or nothing. You know, like we said, those experiences that those two people had in the beginning was real. They were in love. And I'm sure they had a spectacular relationship, right. What tends to happen as human beings is we all get lost in our own stuff, right? Trying to pull together our own experiences. And we really don't understand the ability to co create what we need to keep an eye on. And so that entropy, you know, normal digression takes hold and then we're feeling frustrated and disappointed and then we're acting out. And in that acting out, sometimes we have affairs, sometimes we pop pills, sometimes we shop, we exercise too much, we do all kinds of things. I just want to propose the idea that it comes from the same emotional driver to offset and get those needs met. But love is real, love is wonderful. And love is something that I would encourage you to continue to pursue. Even though sometimes, yes, it can be disappointing, it can be heartbreaking. We have the ability to heal our emotional selves and it is very, very resilient. So, you know, don't throw in the towel and give up just because you, you Know, had a bad run with it, you know, dust yourself off, learn from it, grow from it, and then practice and go again. It's important that we do that. It's an important need in our lives.

Okay, now to end this conversation, I have some rapid fire questions about adultery.

Keyword, rapid.

Okay, I got it. It.

Number one, how do you think cheating changes a relationship?

Well, it's a wake up call or a breakup call. That would be my simple answer. What's happening is I don't know how to talk about this and so I'm going to act it out. And it could be either because I do want to be out of this relationship and I don't know how to tell you about that, or I, I just am miserable in my relationship. No, I don't want it to end. So I'm, I'm doing this acting out here on the side in hopes that I can figure myself out.

Out.

Right. Figure us out. Figure out what we're going to be.

Number two, you said that this can happen before, but you didn't say how. Do you think that anything good can come from cheating in a relationship?

Absolutely. Absolutely. When it's a wake up call, it is the best thing that's happened in that relationship for a long time. It gets everybody's attention. And it's funny, all of a sudden we're willing to do all sorts of things we weren't willing to do before. We're willing to grow, examine, explore, learn, and become versions of ourselves that will create that better relationship for us. I like it said this way. We're all probably going to have the experience of, you know, failing or not failing. I don't like, I don't think we fell at love, but, but say having my heart broken or experiencing disappointment in love. So we're going to go on and either create a new relationship with somebody new or we're going to create the same relationship with the same person, but better. Right? So that relationship, once an affair happens, is done, it's over and I'm going to create a new relationship with the same person instead of create a new relationship with someone else.

And then let me just ask, in your work with, you know, couples that have gone through this, is there one, have you found one person in the relationship? Whether it's the person that had the affair or the person that the affair was, you know, you know, not that person is one you found harder for them to get through that and use it as a transformation, transformative experience versus the other, or are they just really individual?

It's really. But I will say this, it's really individual. But I will say this. The person who's had the affair has to want the relationship. That's the key, the thing to keep an eye on. If the person who had the affair doesn't want the relationship, it's going to start to show really big, especially when we start, you know, rolling up our sleeves and doing some work.

And number two, the person who didn't have the affair has to be willing to let the past go.

Yep.

We just did our first two questions. Three absolute questions you have to, you know, answer. I'm sorry, I mean, you can boil. We, we've, we've shared those off.

I'm not trying to rush. I just am trying to really be, you know, provoking.

I just posted that Tick Tock today. So if you want to know the three questions you need to ask, you need to go to our Tick Tock account.

Beautiful.

Question number three. What's the first thing you would do to start building retrust, start rebuilding trust after the affair?

Good question. The first thing that you would do, we touched on it a little bit in this conversation is start examining what the narrative is about your relationship up to this moment. And then to be able to understand your person, we have to understand how we arrived here, not from the juicy details of the affair, but what was it that was going on for you? Why is it that you believed an affair was a good idea for you? Was it that allowed you to cross that line? Right. Help me understand what you feel like my role was in this. And when we can have that conversation, it creates an old narrative about the relationship. And then we're poised to be able to take and extract from that the things that need to be different in creating that new relationship that we talked about. It's like sifting through the old relationship. Now that's done, it's over, it's dead. Right. Let's officially, in our own experience, call it a divorce. We're done. We're going to kick it aside. But what do we need to pull out and understand from this, this experience that's going to help us recreate this new relationship?

And to me, this is a really important distinction to where really be clear and hear what Stacy shares. She's not asking you to get the circumstances. It's right. So this is, we say many times we fight over the circumstances at the expense of the experience. It's what was feeling what was going on inside of you, feeling wise and vice versa. And so we. Everybody loves to come In. And Stacy, they'll tell Stacy. Well, he said, you know, and Stacey said, look, it doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is what was going on underneath all of that. That's what we got to start being talking about. And the emotional. Yes.

Doesn't matter if we should have done it or shouldn't have done. It's happened. So let's address it. Right.

It's.

And what is. What are the narratives and the stories and emotions that have driven us to this point in time?

And this brings us to our last question question, which I think is a good ending wrap up to this whole conversation. Do you think that cheating is always a sign of a larger problem in the relationship?

Yes, absolutely. It's an acting out that I don't know how to talk about, I don't know how to bring to the table. So it absolutely is evidence that there is something else going on in the relationship, right? Oh, yeah, we'll just leave it at that. That simple answer. Yes, it is. There's something else going on that needs to be explored. It's just a symptom of a much bigger problem. Yeah. Usually going on with the individual. Yep.

That's what I was getting to. It's usually like. It's usually a power struggle that's going on inside of one person in the relationship.

Yep. And they're acting it out.

Out.

It's like that passive aggressiveness, difficult place to be.

Don't stay there. If you need some help with that, reach out. Reach out.

Yeah, absolutely.

Because the default option will happen if you don't.

Yeah.

I love that we're having this conversation. I really do. I think we need to have conversations like this more often. You know, talking about affairs and infidelity has been such a taboo for so long. And I think we, you know, that that coincides with the taboo of talking about sex and eroticism and intimacy overall. And I love it that more and more people are starting to write about these things in my profession. And I think we need more people to talk about and write about these things and teach about these things. They're important and until we understand them, we will act them out.

Well, and the. There's so many nuanced things behind the reasons why people cheat that show you it is not cut and dry, you know, and the answer to, you know, resolving and healing from them are also not cut and dry. It. It's. It's going to take a lot of work, but it's not hopeless. And we have many stories of couples who have recovered after, after an affair are still together today, but they had to work at it, right?

Yeah. As if, let me just say, as if we find whoever was the person at fault and whoever was not, now we're good. Okay. We move on. Like that's not the answer. Right? That's not the answer.

Well, and then going back to people who have opinions about how this should go. Right. For me, it just highlights the lack of understanding really that they have about what is at play and how these things typically do play out. It's easy to make a snap judgment like that when you have no experience or understanding in the field. Healed. Right.

And education about it. Yeah.

Right. It would be leave. What do you think? And that's so silly. Well, you A, have never been there or B, were there and you're still traumatized by it and you think that that's the answer for everyone and no, it's not. Right. We all have to kind of find our way there. And ofttimes it really is the best thing that's ever happened to this relationship if it is to be saved. Because it wasn't working anyway in some of its grander components that if we did understand how relationship relationships work, we would understand why. But we don't, we don't study it. We don't really spend any time there. It's either supposed to work or it's not going to work. And that's kind of the totality of our conversation. Right. And if it doesn't work, then it's somebody else's problem. Right. It's who's. Who's at fault here. Oh, it's because you had an affair. That was the problem. While it was definitely part of it. There's a lot more to be explored there. Again, it's a co creation and everybody plays their part. So I hope that that's helpful. And I would say even in spite of infidelity and the egregious break, heartbreak and disappointment that that can bring into our lives. I'm just going to say it again as we wrap this up. Please remember your heart, your emotional body is so resilient that it will heal. And so many times we don't trust that it will heal, that it's over, that love for me is over. I can't go on. I won't be able to move on or love like this ever again or trust like this ever again.

And.

And I just want you to know that's fear talking. That is not true. That is absolutely not true at all. That we do have the power to move through these things. And they do have the power to transform our lives. And in fact, if we harness that, there is really good things that come out of very difficult situations. Right. If we harness the power for good. So remember that. Right. Commit to loving again, even though you may not know how right now.

So should we take a collective pause now?

I think it feels like a good time to do that. Yeah. And we're going to turn this. Boy, talk about. Take a really sharp, sharp left. We're going to have some fun.

As we always do. As we always do right there. So follow the fun.

Yeah. It's important. And we can do it at any old time, even when we're pressed significantly. Absolutely.

Maybe that's the best time to remember that. You can.

Well, the counterbalance to any kind of depression, anxiety, hopelessness is pleasure. So I would encourage you to seek some pleasure, some fun, some novelty. Yes. And this week we want to inspire you with a little thing I called hidden secrets. Secrets. So what I'm going to invite you to do is write out five to eight small notes on paper. And just to kind of give you a few things to maybe write on those slips of paper for your special somebody is I love to kiss you because fill in the blank. I can't wait to fill in the blank. I bought us tickets to fill in the blank. I love it when you fill in the blank. Thinking of you reminds me of fill in the blank. And what I want you to do with these five little slips of paper, if you're going to do eight, you're going to need to come up with three on your own. If you wanted to stick with the five prompts that I've given you. You got five notes, Roll them up on a little piece of paper. And what you're going to do is you're going to take them down to a store that sells balloons and you're gonna create a balloon bouquet. But before you fill them up with helium, slip your little note inside of the balloon.

Oh, wow.

And hey, if you want to get really creative, go ahead. You can slip, like, tickets in there. You can slip like rings in there. You can slip all kinds of fun little things in a balloon because it stretches. So remember that. Just wrap it up so that you don't puncture the balloon once it's inflated. But you don't have to do that either. Keep it simple. Just put your little notes in there and present your beautiful bouquet of hidden secrets to your person. And the caveat and the instructions are, you're going to have to pop them to find the notes inside. You can do it all at once or you can do one a day. And if you really want to put this on steroids, you can deliver it to where they work so that everybody around them sees that. Ah, you got a little bouquet of balloons. Something about balloons that make a smile. Right. It's just, I don't know, it kind of.

Oh, you don't often get, get receive them.

Yeah. So maybe instead of a flower bouquet, do a little hidden secret balloon bouquet instead. I guarantee you the lady at the store that's blowing the balloons up for you is going to be exceptionally envious of your idea. So have some fun with this. What would you say to your lover? And I'm just going to repeat these so that you can capture them again. I love to kiss you just because. Fill in the blank. I can't wait to fill in the blank. I bought us tickets to fill in the blank. I love it when you fill in the blank. Thinking of you reminds me of fill in the blank. So have some fun with us.

You just did. I bought his tickets too. You didn't put them in a balloon, but you was still very fun. Surprise. And we had a wonderful time just a few days ago. If you're listening to this live, live.

So yes, we did. We took a little run to San Francisco, which is about two hours from where we live and we even got a room, went to dinner and saw Sabrina Kido. Kadio Kido.

Kalido, I think. Yes, Kalido. She's been featured as one of our songs in one of our previous episodes.

I'll tell you what, if you need some really good love making music, you can't, you can't go wrong with Sabrina. She's amazing, beautiful, 26 year old, Cuban, Puerto Rican.

Yeah, it was really good time and it was amazing how much boost that gave us both and not even 24 hours. So it doesn't have to be hard, doesn't have to be complicated. But it was really a, a, a fun, fun bit of novelty and play and enjoyment.

Yeah. So as we wrap this episode up, we always end with a song. And by the way, I came across a little fun fact that I want to share with you about music. 5 to 10 songs per day. Listening to 5 to 10 songs per day improves your memory. It strengthen, strengthens the immune system and reduces the risk of depression by 80%.

Well, no wonder I'm so happy and have such a good memory. Because 5 to 10 we, we listen to 5 to 10 before the first hour. Of the morning is over.

Well, the song that I selected for today, you want to tell it?

I. I don't know. Remember?

Oh, it's incredible. It's Greg, reporter and Cam. I'm holding on. I think this is a great song for this episode. As they sing, My past has left me bruised I can't hide from the truth when the truth won't let me lie Right next to you I'm holding on and I'm holding strong that's all I can do right now. And that's often how we feel sometimes when affair and infidelity has taken place in our relationships. We're just kind of holding on. So while you're holding on, I'm going to encourage you to also learn, grow, explore, get help, get some mentorship, and remember and trust the aspect that I shared with you earlier. You absolutely will heal. There's no doubt about it, if that's what you choose to pursue. So that's this week's episode of Love Shack Live. Thank you so much for being here with us, us and listening in on this conversation that we've had today.

This is the first time you. You've listened to us. Thank you so much. We're Tom and Stacy Bartley, by the way. And our daughter Brooke, our producer and everything woman was with us this week. Sometimes she's a voice in the dark. She's always helping us in some way, shape or form. And thank you to the listener, if this is your first time remaining times, if you're helping us spread the word about our show, we really appreciate that as well. It all matters.

Yeah, it absolutely does. And Brookie, special, thank you to. To putting the show together for us. Thank you so much. You're awesome. All right, we'll look forward to seeing you again. And if this episode could help somebody in your sphere of influence, please share it with us and review it on Apple Podcasts. We'd love to hear from you. Take care and we look forward to seeing you again soon. Bye. Bye.

Okay, everybody, time to go. We gotta close the doors to the Love Shack for this week. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. Come back next week, though, and join us for another edition of Love Shack Live with Tom and Stacy Bartley.