#103: All About Neurodiversity: Connecting With Neurodiverse Partners

But also, there are large numbers of people like me who 30 years ago would have been like the weird girl in the class, right? So I wouldn't be labeled as autistic. I would be noticed as, you know, being slightly different or having a different brain. And I'm just. Everybody in their family, I feel like, has like some great aunt or some grandfather or somebody who is just a little bit different. And those folks might nowadays be labeled autistic. And so from my perspective, it's not necessarily that we have more autistic, but that they're being categorized in this way, in a way that wasn't available to us a couple of decades ago.

Hey, thanks for coming.

Welcome to the Love Shack.

Hey, welcome to the Love Shack. It's a little old place where we get to get together, explore fresh perspectives and eavesdrop on juicy conversations to discuss, discover the things that really matter while having a little bit of fun along the way. This is episode number 103. Curious about neurodivergence. It's a relatively new term that emerged in 2019 and affects an estimated 5.4 million adults in the US that equates to about 2.2% of the US population. So what does it mean? Well, I'm going to give you a little meaning right here. It's. It means neurodiversity. It means neurodivergence or neuro variance. It refers to the variations in the human brain and cognition which can affect sociability, learning, attention, mood, and other mental functions. And they're often geniuses in many ways. However, they struggle with common social structures and often physical and emotional sensitivities. So do you, like me, have someone in your life that you're struggling to understand and support? I personally have two children, one male and one female, who, while growing up in the 90s, I had no idea were neurodivergent. For example, at the age of 10, I had a son who would sit in the back of the car and he would calculate traffic patterns, and he would tell me that he's always late for school because I drive in the wrong pattern of traffic. And he'd have a meltdown over it. Now is his mother. That can only help him count to 10. I would just look at him and go, I have no idea what you're talking about. And the same beautiful boy of mine would also say, mom, there's a social language I don't understand. I feel like people know how to talk about things that I don't understand. I don't get it. And what he was referring to was the body language, the social cues. He was missing them and he knew he was missing them, but he didn't understand what it meant. And he asked me several times, why am I so different than my friends? A daughter, I mentioned her. She was a creative artist and she loved creating radio shows of music, poetry and fashion in her bedroom for hours on end, often while refusing to eat and sleep well. I mean, and I look back and I go, well, pretty much everything. I mean, she didn't want to be a part of anything. She just wanted to do this very obsessive aspect of, of poetry, writing, music, singing her songs. And I remember her performing all of this in front of her stuffed animals that she would line up on the bed and perform and say and do all of those beautiful things with. In the exterior world, she felt very overstimulated. She couldn't figure out why it was so difficult for her to engage in loud noises, people overwhelming her with just the simplest of conversations. And looking back, the reality is I just, just didn't understand and I had no idea of the best ways to support them through some of their struggles. Again, I just didn't get it. So perhaps for you, or maybe it's you or a partner or spouse, you identify with feeling difficulty in managing impulsivity, you have difficulty reading nonverbal cues, much like my son, you have a hyper fixation and special interests, you have a rejection sensitivity or executive functioning faculties are difficult for you making decisions, whatever this may be that's showing up for you. I have really good news for you today. I have a wonderful person who just happens to be neurodivergent herself. I mean, who better to help us understand the inner workings of this often challenging and yet beautiful, incredible genius of how our brains work in so many different capacities, but a person who experiences herself. And also she has two beautiful children that she too supports. And I know she has a lover or two in there and perhaps a partner that is neurodivergent as well. I also want you to know that she supports people worldwide about how to deal with and manage some of these most beautiful aspects of being different than the majority. She helps them develop and pursue the very best life that is possible. Possible for them. And I couldn't be more delighted to have this conversation. Danielle, welcome to the show. It's great to have you here.

Thank you so much for having me. That was beautiful intro. I appreciate so much being here and I'm so looking forward to it.

Yeah. So let's start at the beginning, which is what I love to do. Tell us what being neurodivergent was like for you. Help us see maybe that world from your lens and maybe some of the questions that I'm sure motivated you to do the work that you so beautifully do today.

Sure. So I am in my mid-30s at this point. I was a late identified autistic person, which just means I wasn't caught when I was younger, maybe similar to your kids. I also grew up in the. I was born in 85, grew up in the 90s. There wasn't vocabulary at that time for folks like me. And I had, it sounds like, honestly, many of the same struggles that your children had in terms of sensory overwhelm, not understanding things that everybody else seemed to understand. Especially as I got into middle high school and high school and college. And as an adult, I was fine academically. I, you know, learned how to take care of myself, do my housework, kind of manage. But I had a lot of trouble understanding social cues. I would miss social cues and be ostracized and not really get what I did wrong. And it was a big struggle. And I didn't until I had my children who are also neurodivergent. In my late 20s, early 30s, I didn't really understand that I was autistic. And then my children were identified because we have much better screening tools now and a much better understanding of what neurodiversity means. And I was like, oh, both of my children are. I have adhd autistic kiddos, and both of them are neurodivergent. My partners, a couple neurodivergent partners. And it was like, oh, you know what? If they're autistic, adhd, where do we think that came from? Well, I bet it came from me and their dad, who was also unidentified at that time. So there's a whole generation of us, really, who didn't have the vocabulary our parents didn't like. Nobody did. For what we now would see as either unidentified autistic people or ADHD people who don't fit the traditional medical models of those things or the kind of stereotypical medical models. Those models need to be broadened out a little bit. So that's why I do the work I do now. I'm a coach and I work with all sorts of neurodivergent people and all sorts of skill building and a lot of that is emotional intelligence, skill building and communication style gaps. Because autistic people do have different communication styles than non autistic people. Both sides need to work to bridge that gap. And so it's, it's a wonderful job. I really enjoy it and I, I hope that it's, you know, a help to lots of folks. We have a lot.

And I, I think it's really important to highlight that neurodivergent people are brilliant, brilliant, absolutely brilliant. And so many of the creative opportunities that thinking out of the box bring into the world that we so desperately need come from neurodivergent.

So why don't. For some of us that aren't quite as scientifically driven as these two wonderful ladies that I'm with.

All right.

Good to be here, ladies and gentlemen. This is my first opportunity to get a word in. I'm Tom. No. Would you share with us, Daniel? What are the typical labels are diagnoses of people that have these certain challenges that kind of fall under this very, you know, it's a big word.

It's a big word.

You know, a big word. So what, what typically that, that you see that would be included in this newly discovered label or, or group of individuals.

How about that?

So there's a couple of different ways to define neurodivergence and neurodiversity, which is, I think, why it's so confusing. And so it's, it's definitely a big umbrella term from the medical perspective. It's really anybody who has a non traditional brain. So that could be somebody with autism, adhd, downs, ocd, schizophrenia, anxiety, depression, somebody with post traumatic stress disorder, or somebody who's had a concussion or a fall or traumatic brain injury. In my world, although I work with all those kinds of people, neurodiversity does tend to get, I think most people when they are talking about neurodiversity, think of things like autism, ADHD and people of sort of average to above average intelligence. Certainly there are folks with neurodiversity along all intelligence spectrums. Like you were saying before, if you look at us broadly, we're of roughly the same intelligence as non neurotypical people. So there's a spectrum there. But I think when you see it in a newspaper, you see it on Oprah or something, people are mostly talking about autistic ADHD people, even though there's a ton of other folks who fit in that umbrella. So I think that's why it's confusing. I think it's used, it's not used the same way in all, in all places. So I hope that helps.

Well, and I just want to point out this is still an emerging field, right? I mean, we understand A lot about the body and chemistry and biology, but the brain, okay, so that's a whole new field, and we're just beginning to understand.

And let me just ask, with this emergence of this new field, is there. And like you had shared, Daniel, there's much better diagnose capability as there are in other places, which is awesome. Is. So that means there's a greater percentage of people that are falling into this. This gap, so to speak, where they didn't know what the heck was going on before.

Very much so. I think if you. If you Google the autism epidemic, right, you find these charts that are like, oh, you know, 40 years ago, we had this very small number of folks who were autistic, and now we have one in 40 children or one in even. Even bigger numbers. To some degree, it may be that autism is rising in the population. I don't think we know yet, personally, is my interpretation of the evidence. But also, there are large numbers of people like me who 30 years ago would have been like the weird girl in the class. Right. So I wouldn't be labeled as autistic. I would be noticed as, you know, being slightly different or having a different brain. And I'm just. Everybody in their family, I feel like, has like some great aunt or some grandfather or somebody who is just a little bit different. And those folks might nowadays be labeled autist. And so from my perspective, it's not necessarily that we have more autistics, but that they're being categorized in this way, in a way that wasn't available to us a couple of decades ago.

Yeah. I'm just curious. How do you feel about the label?

I found it very helpful. Obviously, there are a lot of stereotypes associated with autism, and I honestly think that's really. It's frustrating for many reasons, but for me personally, the fact that autism is such a stereotyped word means that I was not able to think of myself as autistic into. Until somebody else gave me that label in my 30s. And I went through, you know, 35 years of a lot of struggle and trauma because I didn't fit anywhere. And I've spoken to. As a coach, I work with a lot of newly identified autistics, whether they're in their, you know, youth, teens, 20s, 30s, and on up. Some people are 60 when they're identified, 70. And that's a lot of time to just feel like an alien on the planet and to feel like you really don't fit here. And so a lot of folks, when they get the label, for whatever reason, and Feel this immense sense of relief and community and are able to then find the people who are like them that we could not access before. So for me, it's a very positive term and it's very, it means a lot to me to have that community and to be able to find people who think similarly and who I can talk to easily. And you know, it's not something I had as a child. And so, yeah, it's really positive.

I have a question, Danielle. I'm the same age as you and I worked with autistic kids when I was younger and I feel like from maybe probably I was like 19 and now I'm 36. Our idea of autism, like you said, has changed so much since then. Like every child that I worked with back then was severely autistic. You know, they were non verbal, they couldn't communicate at all. And now, especially on TikTok, I feel like this emerging group of highly functional autistic people is emerging like you because you're being diagnosed later in life. And I feel like there's probably a lot of people who'd be like, no, you're not autistic, you're normal. You know, that's not a nice thing to say. That's rude to both groups of people. That's a rude thing to say. But how do you, how do we grapple with that? How do you like explain to people? No, I am autistic and autistic can present in many ways. I feel like that's kind of the next like thing that we need to broach as a society that autistic people can, can act all different ways and you can't necessarily identify them just by looking at them. How do we have that conversation?

It's a really good point and I really appreciate you bringing it up. Yeah. So a lot of us folks like me who are sometimes called highly functional though that's a little bit of a messy term. So I don't tend to use it, but I just as a label, like as something that maybe you have hear, heard. There's a lot of folks like me who present as people who have their lives together. Right. Who are able to parent, sort of, you know, able to feed ourselves, kind of make the bed in the morning. Right. Hold the job. And then there's a lot of folks who have much more like need a lot more support in their day to day life. Right. I think that. Well, first of all, a lot of the folks who are coming from that, like sort of dismissive, oh, you can't be autistic sort of feeling, I honestly think, just aren't well educated about what autism is. And so they're functioning off of like the Rainmaker man stereotype, which covers a very tiny like maybe 1% of autistics. And one of my favorite bits of trivia is that the, the character that Rain man was portrayed after Kim Peak wasn't, was a savant, but was not autistic. And so Rain man is, is our, I think our, our American stereotype of an autistic person and is not actually modeled off an autistic person, which is how far apart the stereotype can be from like us as actually living people. So a lot of folks just don't understand what autism is. And so we do hit into this dismissal a lot. And as an autistic person, it's really frustrating. But it's also I think coming from this fear of, fear of disability, fear of people being different from you. And when you think of it that way, it's, you start to feel like more bad for the person that you know. And from my perspective, wanting to educate, when they're open to it, around what autism really means and how huge the spectrum is of kinds of people who can be autistic. And also autism can be something that is part of you along with other co occurring traits or illnesses or conditions. Right. And so we're very, we're very complex group.

So you had mentioned something about both parties, right. Those who have different brains and those who we say have similar brain functions.

Which is kind of funny when you say that because none of us have it.

Yeah, there's no such thing as a normal brain.

Yeah, I was going to say we're all kind of on a spectrum, aren't we? I mean about how. And that's what makes our personalities, for sure. So you had said about. I'd love to hear what you have to say about communication because I feel like that's where so much of interaction and our ability to work through some of these differences that are presented, whether we're talking about a parent and a child or a partner and a spouse, that it's the communication that often breaks down. Right. The relationship. Because we become so frustrated and we feel like you just don't understand me, I don't understand you. What are we going to do with this? And so in the very beginning of sharing your story, you had mentioned that you help people with the communication aspect of it. Can you give us kind of a little sampling and maybe teach us some things that you have found to be very, very Helpful in working with others. Sure.

So I just kind of want to start by saying, you know, like you said, every brain is different, and so different folks come in with different needs, but in a general sense, especially with autistic folks. And again, I, every time I say something like this, I get one autistic commenter who's like, that's not me. And it's like, that's awesome. It doesn't have to be you, but this is just a general, like some, some autistic folks struggle with. A lot of us don't read faces particularly well. And so the emotions that you're displaying with, you know, your mouth, your eyes, if we're really paying attention, we, we might notice them, but usually we're focused more on your words. That's a broad statement. But so if you say something, we're going to take that more or less literally. Any sort of alteration of those words that you do with your face, we might not pick up on. So satire being sort of passive aggressive, right? Where you're like, oh, that's fine, you know, and you're doing that kind of. We're not, we might not get that, you know, and so we can come off as, as not paying attention or like, we don't care about what you think, but really we do really care. We just don't always read faces. Many of us are face blind. I'm one of those people who's face blind. And so sometimes I can't even recognize individual faces out of context, much less pay attention to, like, what your eyes are doing. We also often can't focus on more than one input stream at once. And so if you've heard the kind of stereotype, which can be true for some of us, that we don't make eye contact the same way as neurotypical people. And then often we're thought to be. Not be paying attention to you, really. It's. We can't look at your eyes and also hear you at the same time. We can focus on one input. And so if you want us to hear you, we might have to look over here. And that doesn't mean we're not paying attention and in fact means we're focusing really hard on hearing what you have to say. But if you ask us to stare at you, we can pay attention to your eyeballs, but we will not hear what you said. So that can be really struggle, a struggle for parents and children, but also for couples that we, some of us expect eye contact as a sign that we're attending, we might be Looking over here and really attending very hard. So that's another thing, that literalness, which I was gesturing to before. A lot of autistics do a lot better if you tell us bluntly, frankly, exactly what you want. We want to. We want to work with you. Right. We're people. We want to communicate and collaborate. But you have to be able to say things like, I really need you to help me with this project, or I really need you to help me with the dishes every Tuesday or whatever it is your ask is. You know, be respectful, be polite, but be really little bit more blunt than you maybe think you have to be. Also say it small. Don't say, don't give us your 8,000 reasons for why you need the thing. Just say, I need you to help me with the dishes, please. And then listen to the response and work from there. And again, these are blanket statements. But a lot of the autistics I work with or the mixed neurotype couples I work with, or parent and children pairs that I work with, a lot of it just comes down to neurotypicals will give a lot of information. And there's one bit in there that is the act, the action. Right. You're all laughing. I'm sorry. Oh, Danielle.

I'm laughing because I teach this.

Right.

I teach this with my couples who are not neurodivergent because the same. Yeah, it is.

So it's really good information for all of us. Really. It really is.

I mean, there is.

And we're not laughing.

No, no, I don't. I didn't take it, mainly. Yeah, yeah. No, yeah.

Oh, my gosh. Yes.

And if you can think of an autistic person and. And sometimes to some extent, ADHD years, too, are often like, the way we process information is a little bit slower. And we have to be. We don't have our brains, don't just do it like neurotypical brains do. We have to actually think about everything you're saying, every. Every gesture you're making. And we have to put the puzzle pieces together.

All together.

Yeah.

And so the more puzzle pieces you give us, the less likely we are to complete the puzzle quickly and efficiently and the way you want us to. And so if you can just give us the pieces you need us to act on, it's perfect. Right. And you're completely right. This is true regardless of neurotype in a lot of cases. But I would argue that autistic ADHD folks, especially, and some of the other neurotypes that fall under the neurodiversity umbrella really need that succinct, direct, you know, kind, but, but clear communication. And it needs to be spoken or written. You can't rely on your gestures and your. What your face is doing. We won't pick that up. A lot of us, even folks who are good at it in other ways under stress will stop being able to pick it up. So I said a lot there. What questions do you have?

I think, I think you did a fantastic job. I, I want to, I want to ask you the question. Do you feel like emotionally it takes a lot more effort and energy for someone who's neurodivergent to process and put all those puzzle pieces together?

Yeah.

Like that just sounds exhausting, right? Is exhausting.

Yeah. I think a lot of us have what I, what I would sort of broadly label like a sensory overwhelm or sensory processing delay where we can take the same information and put together the same pieces as you can, but it takes us longer. The other thing that is very common and especially late identified autistic people, but even in autistic children, is to be relatively, to have our emotions be relatively divorced from our cognitive processes because a lot of us are really pulling it all together all day and struggling to mask and struggling to present like we're neurotypical so that we don't get ostracized, so that we can do okay at work or at school or even in the relationship, unfortunately, sometimes in the family setting. And what that can do over time is make us really unaware of what we're feeling. And so you end up with these adult autistics who are relatively traumatized and also not able to label basic identity or identify basic emotions like knowing if they feel happy or sad or knowing if they're scared or not. And so you can get these emotional outbursts that happen days after the original trigger because that person is so out of tune with what their body is doing. And that's unfortunately pretty normal. I'm not saying it's good, but it is normal for a lot of the autistics I work with, and again, many of the ADHDers as well, or anybody who has a complex mental health condition that might include trauma in the background. And so, you know, to bring that up to relationships. I, my, the. Sorry, my kiddo's dad is an ADHD er. When we got together, we were both undiagnosed, so we both had no idea what was going on. It used to take him days after an argument to process after a debate, not like a, you know, hands out argument but after a, you know, to process what he was feeling and be able to talk to me about it days after the original trigger. Now through a lot of work, he's back to, you know, he's either immediate or a couple hours down. And that's so it's so much better for us. But many couples really have to do a lot of work. Especially if you have two neurodivergent people and maybe different neurotypes. If it takes both of them days to process what they're feeling and identify the emotion and make a decision around that information. Then you end up with people who feel betrayed, who feel like they can't trust their partner, who, who feel like, you know, it's just not worth communicating because it's so hard. And you know, those feelings can be very true, but you can, you can. We have ways to inter, we have interventions is what I'm trying to say. We have ways to intervene to improve a lot of that emotional processing. But it is exhausting for a lot of us. You're completely right that with the sensory processing, with the background trauma of ableism in the world, like it's just a lot. So.

Yeah, well, and it makes so, so much sense that, that there would be the emotional outburst that would happen on the backside of times days later, you know, hours to days later. That's just simply because our emotional bodies can become constipated. Right. We've something's gotta give and that's, that's a classic sign of survival.

And do you find in your work that people that are neurodivergent are typically coupled up with someone else that is, or do we have a lot of blending where one partner is, is nerve divergent and the other is not. Are there more complexities with either one of those combinations?

I think it's a good mix. I don't know that anyone's done any research on that. I would be, I would love to see some research on that. Frankly, just, just from my like anecdotal experience, I've worked with kind of mixed neurotype partner groups, partnerships and people with the same neurotype. Yeah, pretty often on both. I think that there is something about if both pers people have a neurodivergence, whether it's the same one or they're different, they both do have some shared background in terms of dealing with ableism in the day to day world. Having to hold it together and pretend they're neurotypical or mask is neurotypical just to do basic things. And so there can be some common ground and a little bit more empathy in that relationship sometimes just because they have similar experiences, but not always. It can vary widely. Adhd, for example, is much more acceptable in general society than autism is still nowadays. You know, there's, you can make lots of judgment, you know, ADHD men are especially more accepted than ADHD women. There's lots of variations. But I think there is more challenge broadly for a neurotypical and a non neurotypical person. Just because the neurotypical, despite best efforts and true love, really may not understand what the neurodivergent person is going through. And especially, you know, if they're open to education and they're open to learning, that's. That partnership has a lot more likelihood of success. But unfortunately, a lot of neurotypical people are just not very familiar with what neurodivergence looks like. And they think that traits that their partner is displaying are purposeful or neglectful or being a bad partner. Right. As opposed to some symptom of not being supported as a neurodivergent person. So it can be really complicated and really hard.

Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons why I don't like labels. It's, it's because once we slap a label, you're this, you know, whether that's codependent or attachment disordered or our narcissist, you know, it's our society's favorite one right now, is it, it makes it so much easier to demonize my partner. Now. You're not my partner. The person that I love and that I adore, and we're going through some challenging challenges. You're this, you're this label now. And I can't see through that. And I, I see that in my practice as well. I've had the opportunity of working with a handful of neurodivergent partners where one would be typical and one would not be. And, and I've, I've seen that play out just as you have described. Right. I just don't understand why you do it. And I'm starting to make up a lot of reasons as to why you're doing what you're doing. And it's always because you just want to get me, you want to thwart me, you want to undermine me. You don't care what I have to say.

I would say a lot of, I hear a lot of similarities in what Danielle just shared so eloquently and accurately with, with, you know, our younger brother. My younger brother, excuse me, is, is, is struggles with Mental health. And he's a real advocate. And so when you have a partner that struggles with mental health and a partner that doesn't, same kind of thing for all of us in whatever situation in life, it's very hard. And let's just be honest, it takes a lot of growth on our side to step in objectively and really try to step in and understand what our partner is experiencing when we have no idea.

Absolutely.

Well, I was just gonna say also for the, for the neurodivergent people who experience a lot of trauma, either because they're not diagnosed or because, like you said, they have gone so long with not understanding their feelings. I could see where a neurotypical partner could confuse that with narcissism, you know, and, and think, oh, my partner is so narcissistic because they don't care about my feelings and they don't understand me, when really it's the opposite. You're not understanding your partner who is neurodivergent. And that just piles on the trauma on the neurodivergent person because they're being accused of something they're not, and they also don't know what they are. And that's a huge mess. But I bet that happens often.

Yeah, I think you're probably right. And it's, it is really complicated and it's hard to dig out from. And I, I try in my practice to really focus on what are the traits that you're seeing, what are the behaviors you're seeing and what are we, what is causing those and how can we help you reduce themselves and whatever we're trying to do. Right. As opposed to, and also, you know, I'm not a therapist or so I'm not going to label people with a diagnosis.

Sure.

In terms of labeling in, in the sense of the, the neurodivergence, I do find it helpful personally, for me, because it, again, gave me that community.

Sure.

But I also think we really have to remember that in any kind of label, there is a huge spectrum of folks that fall under that. And in neurodiversity specifically, the research shows us that most people with one neurodivergence also fall under other neurodivergent categories. So most people with autism are adhd. A lot of ADHD is our autistic. Most people with OCD are also, you know, so there's, there's these crossovers and all of those things manifest differently for each individual person and what's going on. And so you really have to be person centered, I think, and look at what they're experiencing and what their partner's are experiencing and. And kind of work from there, you know.

So what are some. Could you tell us if you could respectfully, of course, share some stories of some clients or maybe even some of your personal experiences about how you've navigated through some of these things that we're describing that can show up. And I think that's going to lead us to some. Some wonderful super tips that you can leave us if by chance we are finding ourselves having to navigate some of these things that we've described, you know?

Yeah, I think I'm trying to think. I personally, you know, did. Wasn't identified until I was in my 30s. I'd also. I'd already had several relationships by the time I was in my 30s. And looking back, I was a difficult partner. And until I was identified, I really had this concept of myself as just being a difficult person to date because I couldn't handle social crowds. I got overwhelmed with sensory input, and I didn't understand why. So a lot of times I didn't want to go out and do things. I got anxious last minute and canceled, you know, either on dates or on plans that we had planned together. I really. I do like my systems. I'm much more flexible now. But when I was younger, I was pretty inflexible. I wanted to do it the way I wanted to do it. If plans got changed, I had a panic attack and couldn't handle anything. These are all pretty normal autistic behaviors, but outside of the label of autism, it was like, what is going on with me? I'm just a difficult person. Right. And so I really did have trouble. I had some. Some very wonderful and. And supportive partners. But I also had a lot of people who really didn't understand, like, why I couldn't change plans last minute. Especially in your 20s, like, you know, you want to, you know, there's this expectation that you're just gonna be up for anything. And I was like, no, no, we cannot. We have to do it this way. So, you know, inflexibility, really common in autism. You know, wanting it this way, needing reduced sensory input. Right. So not going to the clubs or the bars because we just can't handle the noise. Those are really common. And so if you have a partner where that kind of thing is happening, it's really easy to take that personally. Like they're choosing not to spend time with you, but really we're choosing not to spend time in the clubs and the bars and in a Place we've never been to before where we don't have an exit plan. And so if you can, unless you have really good evidence otherwise, if you can assume best intent, assume your partner is trying. Assume your partner cares about you and is making decisions for some other reason than not wanting to spend time with you. Right. And really be open to hearing their experience about what's going on for them so that you can find other ways to potentially to be together. A lot of the couples I worked with, and some of the groups, too, have had that kind of experience where they feel like their partner's withdrawing and really the partner is withdrawing, but not from. Not from their other partners, but from the sensory overwhelm.

Right.

Or the anxiety of being in the world. So that's like my number one is just. Just try to assume good intent on your partner's side and try to assume that your partner cares about you and is doing their best and that they need support in some aspect for something that's broken, which is really hard when you've been living with somebody that you feel like is withdrawing for months. Right. But unless you have evidence that it actually is like a trust problem or something greater than that, you know, looking for things like sensory overwhelm and anxiety and what's causing anxiety can really help a lot. So.

And let me. Let me ask Danielle if. Because I know my brother also talks a lot about this. So let's say we come across someone and, you know, they're. They're. They're displaying some behaviors that we're not familiar with, rather than saying what typically we're going to say, what is wrong with you? What. What would you like us to say? What would be helpful for you?

Yeah, you know, this. This also comes a lot up with my. The parents I work with who have kiddos, if the. If the person seems like they might be harming someone else or themselves, Right. That's one thing. But often an autistic or otherwise neurodivergent person is really just living their life. And they might have a tick, or they might be stimming or they might. Whatever, they might, you know, move differently. A lot of us have lower muscle tone than average. Some of us have different kinds of, like, genetic backgrounds. And so if we're not bothering you or showing like, that we might harm something, just leave us alone. You know, if your kiddo asks, you know, absolutely, you can say, like, yeah, different people move differently, you know, or. Or different people speak differently. Right. And that's fine. Like, you know, kids are different. But you know, for adults, part of creating a diverse world in all ways is to let people be how they are. And that's hard because we do have this idea that you're supposed to be a certain way in public, right?

Yeah.

But that's part of what's going on with the trauma that autistics are living with every day is that we're really working very hard to be a normal, quote unquote person in public. And that's causing us a lot of difficulty. And so if you. If the world were such that we could run around and yell and tic and scream and not bother anyone, that would be really helpful for us, frankly. So, yeah, I hope.

I have another question. If you, as a parent or as a partner, think that your child or your partner may be expressing some neurodivergent symptoms or behaviors, but they don't know, but there's been no diagnosis and you just want to get them help, I feel like that's probably a delicate situation, especially partner to partner. Do you have any tips for that?

Yeah, I actually. I have a blog post on my blog about how to talk to your partner about adding, which is a very common one that comes up. ADHD is also a great example because it's kind of less stereotyped, and so it's a little easier to talk to people about it now, honestly, it's like if. If they're just displaying traits, but they're. They're happy, they're fine, you're fine. As their partner, they might not need a diagnosis. It's the diagnosis in my perspective as a coach, and again, not as a medical version professional is really meant to be a support to reduce barriers to support. Right. So if they need support and there are barriers, the diagnosis might help. If they're kind of fine and they're just adhd, then they may not need the diagnosis to have a good life. With things like autism, ocd, some of the other ones is a little bit more complicated because there are. Certainly the diagnosis can reduce barriers to support. The diagnosis can also reduce access in the future to folks with, with autism, adhd. So autistic people sometimes can adopt children, sometimes can't, you know, move to another country. Can't. Like, so there's a lot of. Due to the stereotypes around those kinds of views. Schizophrenia is another one. Right. Where we have a lot of stereotypes around schizophrenia. And so there's things that schizophrenics can't do once they're diagnosed. And so for me, it really comes down to the Family the cost benefit of analysis of getting the label of autistic, which might be a limitation in the future, but might also open a lot of doors. And so I just want to say self diagnosis is in many ways highly valid. Like it's not better certainly than a professional diagnosis. But if you're someone who can do your research and talk around and talk to your therapist about it, whether they give you the professional assessment, diagnosis eval or not, sometimes just having the. I might have some autistic traits. And so these are some interventions that I, you know, have tried, can be pretty low risk and can really support you or your kiddo, but obviously do get professional support if you need it. Like, I'm not saying don't, don't go get a diagnosis, but just, you know, think about it, be careful. And I do have resources on my website for talking, thinking about whether you want a diagnosis for autism and talking to partners about adhd.

And please, please share. Yeah.

What is your website link that beautiful?

Yeah, yeah.

And I, I am, I don't know the website. Maybe you do. Danielle, There is a place where you can go and self diagnose, where they have a little bit of a self assessment quiz. I have a beautiful colleague and dear friend of mine who just recently diagnosed herself on the spectrum. Amy Lou.

Congratulations.

Amy Lou, if you're listening, you know, hey, we love you to pieces is welcome. Yes. Well, and we crack up all the time because of that literal, you know, speaking. I'll get a little sarcastic and she'll say, what are you saying? Are you being, you know, don't. Yeah. Are you being sarcastic? Love that soul. And so I, I also want to know. I, I not want to know. I also want to let listeners know that there is a place where you can go and sell.

And we'll put that in the show notes too.

Sure. Yeah.

Okay.

I think that'd be really, really helpful so that you can kind of weigh the pros and cons of, you know, do I need help, do I need resources, et cetera.

There's a lot of assessment quizzes for autism especially. And I do want to say if you're a woman or an AFAB person that you think you might be autistic, please go search out the specific assessments for females, women, because we do tend to portray autistic traits differently than men do not across the board. Right. You can take both tests. Yes. Gender is weird, but, you know, if you are one of those folks, make sure you're looking for the female associated traits because they are a Little different.

So if I could give you one moment to speak to those who are out there struggling with exactly what we've talked about today. What is it you would like them to know about what's possible for them?

I think that I have worked with so many, both individual people and couples and groups who really can strengthen their relationships and can support communication and can develop systems that really, really work. And I'm not going to say it's like easy or overnight, but it's really doable. And you end up with relationships that are so much more trusting and safe and you feel so much more like yourself in them because you're not masking and you're not like trying to be somebody else. And I think so many, maybe especially women, but really everybody come into relationships sometimes trying to please. And there's nothing wrong with wanting to be good for your partner, but also that, you know, we want it to be balanced. And so working on kind of emotional intelligence and communication skills and being yourself can be. It's just so good for you. Like, it will, you will feel so much better once some of that sloughs off and really you're yourself again. And so I just really encourage you to get help if you need it. And I mean, you don't have to come to me. There's lots of other neurodivergent support like you were talking about TikTok, Instagram, there's so many self advocates. There's so much good information out there that wasn't there when my kids were born, like 10 years ago. It just didn't exist. In the last decade we've had this boom. And so like, go search it out or email me or one of the other many neurodivergent advocates out there. So we can help, help you find the supports that you need. Because it exists now in a way that it didn't, you know, until very recently.

That's so. Yeah, that's so great. Well, when you were thinking about trying to fit into society according to what's normal, I'm thinking even us neurotypical folks have a difficult time with that.

So it is not right.

None of us really kind of tend to thrive in those boxes that we're trying to squeeze ourselves. Right? So.

Well, that's very sage advice you shared. You could, you could. That would be applicable for all of us. I mean, my goodness. Well, yes, I mean, it's, it was wisely said and it can apply to all of us. I think more importantly, when people are in this place, it's, you know, if you're in that place as well as those that aren't, it just is a great confirmation that, you know, be patient, you know, don't always think that we've got somebody else figured out when we don't, you know, take that extra pause before we choose to say something.

Absolutely.

You know, all of us, you know, because we're so quick to think we know and we don't.

You really have to, especially if you're in a mixed neurotype group. There's. I say this as an autistic person. There's so many ways the thing you just said could have been interpreted. And so I, you know, a lot of us are trying our best to answer you back. And come. Maybe we're coming off as. As rude or maybe we're coming off as dismissive, but we're really, you know, we are really trying to hear what you said. And so sometimes it's just we have to learn how to really. And in the most basic way, how to speak to each other in a way that we can hear each other and. But we can do it. We can do it and. And have a lot of success.

So I absolutely agree. Danielle, thank you so much for taking the time to be here with us today for the heart of the matter and love, such a pleasure.

Oh, very helpful.

It's going to be incredible. Incredibly helpful. So I'm sure we'll have you back again.

Well, I'd love to.

Thank you so much for what you do in the world and, and the work that you do and the. And the beautiful human being that you show up as. It's such a gift to all of us. So keep it up.

You're doing great stuff. I appreciate it.

We'll be in touch soon. So we are going to take a little bit of a turn and. And we're going to talk about our Follow the fun, because our relationships need to have fun as a part of them, even though we might be working through some challenging messes or situations, circumstances, because, gosh, if we wait until those all pass, we're never going to have a moment to enjoy our lives or to take the pause that we need to connect to the people that we love and that we adore in our lives. And I guess that's really what I wanted to highlight as the follow the fun moment today in honor of a niece of mine who recently passed away with als. Boy, when something like that happens and hits pretty close to home, as it has for so many of us, even you, our listener, I'm sure it causes us to recognize and realize how precious life is and how precious the people that cross our paths that maybe we haven't connected with or been with in a while, whether they be friends or family members, we can forget that, you know, we wanted to connect with them, that we miss them. So today I just want to invite you to, to take a moment out of your day to reach out to somebody that maybe it's been a while since you've connected with and simply say hello and tell them what you've been thinking about, that they've been on your mind. I'm sure you have somebody that's coming to your mind right now and just let them know that you're here. Have a good laugh. Remember, you know, some memories and some times together and remind them that you care about them and that you're thinking of them. I think that's really important. And we all love those kinds of shots and they are, you know, when I get a call from somebody I haven't spoken with in a little in a while, it's so good to hear their voice. And we forget sometimes that we can be that gift to someone else. And so I want to challenge you and encourage you to do some something like that here in the next few days. Just, just take a moment to reach out to somebody that you spend on your mind or you're thinking of now. Reminisce a little bit, you know, and let them know how precious they are to you. You know, you've got them on your mind. Anybody come into mind for you?

Well, you know, my two childhood friends, you know, one is, which is your brother in law and another one is my friend from the seventh grade, Wally's from the fourth grade, the other one's from the seventh grade. I was just thinking as you're sharing that those think how, at least for me, and I bet it's consistent throughout most people. And they're the new habits of cell phone. Think how little you actually use your cell phone to talk.

Yeah, I mean, I don'.

Ever get a call, I get a text or an email. But I mean, so even just hearing someone, it's like, gosh, nice to hear your voice, nice to chat with you. And even I have to challenge myself rather than send a text, just pick up the phone like Stacy has encouraged us to do so. And you know that because hearing someone's voice is a different experience than receiving.

A text, especially when it's been a while. Right. Oh, and you hear the laughter, etc. I love little voice messages for that reason, but it still doesn't replace the interaction that you get in a real life. Right.

Another one that comes to mind is my younger brother who I mentioned, who is doing great work all over the country, is traveling and we're gonna have him and his beloved over tomorrow night in person for dinner. And I'm really excited about that. So that's even better than a call. Yeah, we call that belly to belly.

And I've got a dear, dear friend that's coming to mind. I need to give her a call and connect with her. So do it. Just pick up the phone. It's not that hard, you know, take that 30 minutes, 45 minutes, heck even an hour and connect with somebody who's made impact in your life right now and let them know that you care and you're thinking about them. I promise it will be a life changing memory and moment for everybody. And as we turn the corner to wrap up our series or our series, our episode today. Gosh, that was a great conversation. I sure enjoyed having her. I knew she was going to be.

My mind is just very much. There's so much application in all of our lives. I mean, to have someone so skilled like Danielle and we can app, we can apply everything that she shared in all of our relationships. They just make us all become better.

Better as we say, we love to say. We got to get better at this thing. So this song that I chose to land this episode with so that we can feel the music as well as hear what we've so eloquently learned today by being together here in the Love Shack is Joe Jonas and Demi Lovato's Wouldn't Change a Thing. And I chose this song because of the lyrics, as I do so many of them. But it, it, the lyrics are this. You, me, we're face to face but we don't see eye to eye like fire and rain. You drive me insane But I wouldn't change a thing. And I think that's the piece that we constantly want to work for, is the fact that we do love and that we do care and that if we have those things, we can work through most anything. Right? If we can give each other the space and permission to do so and to be ourselves. So check out this song along with all the other songs and follow the funds that we create for each and every episode of our podcast. And you can find those by going to our website@staceybartley.com or you can search it up on Spotify the Love Shack Live playlist. So enjoy it. Feel it dance and sing. And by the way, like I mentioned last week in our episode, Music Come to find out, if you listen to 5 to 10 songs can improve your mood, can improve your immune system, and it can stay off depression 80% of the time.

Must be why we're so happy then. Because if we're not recording or doing something that would preclude us from having music on. Music is always on in this house.

I thought it was just because you loved me.

Well, it is.

All right, thanks so much for being here with us inside the Love Shack today. It's been an honor and a pleasure to spend some time with you. If you feel inspired and think this might be helpful for somebody in your sphere of influence, please feel free to share and review this podcast. We so appreciate those Help us spread the word. Help us spread the love. That's our mission here inside the Love Shack. And so, until we connect again, have a wonderful day, have a wonderful weekend and do your best to become a better lover every day. And have a little fun along the way next time.

See you soon. Okay, everybody, time to go. We got to close the doors to the Love Shack for this week. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. Come back next week, though, and join us for another edition of Love Shack Live with Tom and Stacy Bartley.