#109: Alcoholism & Relationships: Breaking The Stigma Of Addiction With The Sinclair Method

Beyond just the external damage that they're causing in terms of the relationships, legal issues, job performance, those types of things, their health even, of course, there's a lot of self abuse that goes along with it. In other words, the person who is drinking has guilt and shame and self criticism and all these other types of things. So it's kind of if those things were helpful, there's no shortage of those types of things. Those things have been tried over and over again. So if that was helpful, it would have worked by now. Hey, thanks for coming. Welcome to the Love Shack.

Hello.

Welcome to the Love Shack. It's a little old place where we get to get together, explore fresh perspectives, and eavesdrop on juicy conversations to discover the things that really matter while having a little bit of fun along the way. I'm Stacy Bartley for those of you who are new to the podcast, and this is my co host and lover, Tom. Today we're going to be diving into episode one, 109, and we're going to be talking about addiction and we're going to be talking about addiction of all kinds, but specific to alcohol. And I just want to open the show by saying addiction of all kinds do impact our precious relationships in challenging ways. And I also want to point out that regardless of how we judge our addictions or our choices as good or bad, please realize and know that they all come from a very similar emotional experience that we're trying or attempting to cope with as a human being. In fact, I think our guest said it best when I was getting to know him. We come prepackaged, meaning our biology and our neurology and our chemistry is not something that we choose. It's kind of a prepackaged deal that we get to learn and discover over time. What gets fired together gets wired together. And now we're talking about our neurology. So if there's something that we're exposed to or that we learn as we're growing up, or that we witness those things that get fired off as deep emotional experiences often get wired together. And so we find ourselves in similar emotional challenges. We might reach for the examples that we saw while growing up in our homes of origin as well. Addiction, it literally begins as a place of enjoyment, and it progresses into a form of emotional coping, or what I call survival mode. It doesn't take away the challenge that we're facing. It certainly doesn't give us a lot of solutions, but it does buy us time to figure things out, to understand ourselves, to turn it around. And that's what our human bodies and our emotional bodies do best. Survival mode. It's trying to do everything it possibly can to buy you the time that you need to understand yourself, life, and what you're going through better. So I'm so delighted to have this conversation with you because Brian has some new remedies for us. And I'm bringing this conversation to light now because of two reasons. Number one, it is the season to be jolly, and right now, the average American is going to see a 100% increase on their alcoholic habits between Thanksgiving and New Year's, according to a recent survey in America. Number two, Brian, as I mentioned, does have a new approach that mitigates alcohol consumption. That I wanted to pass along to you today is something to consider. Consider if you or someone in your life that you love is struggling with alcoholism today. So as we jump into this conversation, please allow me to first introduce you to Brian. Brian Noonan is a psychiatric nurse practitioner and the founder of the nation's largest provider of what's referred to as the Sinclair Method. It's a treatment for alcohol addiction that uses meditation, or not meditation. I'm sure meditation is part of it, but it's actually a medication called naltrexone, and it gradually reduces the craving for alcohol. Brian continues to help hundreds of patients to regain control over their alcohol intake without having to abstain, go to AA meetings or enter a rehabilitation center. And those are really big statements, right, because those are typically the traditional ways that we think alcohol or challenges with alcohol need to be approached. So Brian's going to come on and join us here in the Love shack, and we're going to talk about the old ways, what works, what doesn't, the pros and cons of it all. And we're going to also talk about the new way, the Sinclair Method. Brian, welcome to the show. It is so great to have you here inside the Love shack. I've been so excited for our conversation today just because I know it's going to help so many people.

Yeah, well, thank you very much. And I, too, am excited because after working so long in addiction, to finally have a treatment that really seems to. To be a new model or a new way of thinking about it is very exciting to share with people.

Was anybody else shocked about the statistic that our drinking consumption goes up by 100%?

I was just. I was going to add, and for those of you that listen, often know that I don't get a lot of opportunities to add, but when I do, I try to make them impactful but yes, I said that we're in the season to be invited to a lot of places that we don't normally go or parties and things and gatherings. But I think that statistic blows me away.

Yeah, it did me too, when I, when I uncovered it. Brian, is that shocking or surprising to you?

Well, it's, it's, it's surprising just because especially you're hearing more of it now after we've had a couple years off during the pandemic where we weren't getting together, I think some of the behaviors that maybe we took for granted because they were so customary, we are becoming maybe seeing them with a second eye. We realize now, wow, we really do get together and drink quite a bit. Most of us do during the holidays.

Yeah, for sure. Well, and I, I'm just thinking of this question right now. In your opinion, did you see drinking go up while we were isolated, or do you see it actually increasing now that we're kind of quasi back to normal?

Well, you definitely saw this trend of the frequency of drinking increasing during the pandemic. And so it wasn't necessarily that people were creating kind of acute problems for themselves via drinking, but it just became easier to. To drink earlier if they were working from home or it was something that could actually be concealed even. Or people, some people started drinking a little bit while they were working. You know, if they were, they were doing paperwork or, you know, something that didn't require any interaction. So it definitely. There was an increase of this becoming part of the daily routine where people were just drinking more frequently. And also earlier in the day, usually there would be some postponement, at least due to work and a commute or something like that, but for sure became a more of a daily habit for many people.

Mm. I, I like to neutralize the conversation around addiction, regardless of what it might be, by just saying, you know, those, like I said in the beginning of the show, those emotions that we have, whether we're shopping or over exercising, overworking or over drinking or eating or, you know, they all come from the very similar, same place emotion that we're trying to cope from as a human being. And I was thinking when I was putting the show together today, you know, I love what you said about being prepackaged and just to iterate that it was like you had shared with me as we were getting to know each other that, Brian, your preference was cannabis, that, that alcohol didn't really do much for you, but you come from a family where alcoholism was definitely present. And I, I didn't have any exposure to alcohol or cannabis. You know, I come from the land of the holy Salt Lake City, Utah and I wasn't exposed to any of that until I was well into adulthood. But I love wine. And I would say, babe, I, I think you like both.

I, I think we're getting all the secrets out.

That's right.

Just to say it's so true, you know, we, we have a natural tendency or, or something that works for us to help, help us feel just that little bit better. And Brian, the work that you do, I know you've been doing for quite some time. Would you share with us a little bit about what motivates you in your passion of helping people with alcoholism? Where does that come from?

Well, as you mentioned, I had family background of alcohol abuse and I think it's very common actually especially I guess there's certain kind of stereotypical cultures that. My family is stereotypically Irish Catholic and that's turned out to be a very many traits that are stereotypical. That happens to be true in my case. So I, I probably, I at least think of myself as being formed kind of in the context and the culture of, of, of alcohol addiction, you know, whether it be, you know, up until, you know, including violence and some of the other aspects of it. So I think it was something that I've always been aware of, even if I didn't have the language or some clinical terminology to put on it, just growing up with it. I mean, you know, addiction has been a part of my life for as long as I can remember. And I think what you were saying about being prepackaged, I think that is right in the sense that sometimes the, the expression there's no accounting for taste is sometimes used kind of as a. Something disparaging. But, but if you just take it literally that there is no wanting for taste, you know, why does a particular taste emerge there? There really is kind of a non personal basis for that. We know that people have preferences for salt salty snacks versus sweet snacks. They have a preference for alcohol versus cannabis. They have a preference for lots of social interaction versus less social interaction. So a lot of these kind of at least preferences or tendencies are, are hardwired. Dennis. I. And so I, I'm pretty sure basic.

The.

My father has six siblings and five of the six have clear cut. Have had clear cut addictions to alcohol and, and you know, kind of recurring issues and his father and it really goes down the line with that. So strong genetic disposition for sure.

I'm. I'm curious, Brian I certainly have my opinions on this professionally. But what is your perspective on why is it that alcohol and domestic violence kind of go hand in hand? Why are those two things linked for us, typically, as human beings? You know, why the more we get wasted and the more we. We go down that road, the majority of us, percentagely speaking, get angry or lash out or turns to some kind of a violent outburst. Do you have any thoughts about that?

Well, a lot of it has to do with just the specific nature of the drug in question. Alcohol. It, of course, causes disinhibition. It causes diminished impulse control, poor judgment, these types of problems. The other thing, too, is that there's no kind of natural limit on it. One thing about cannabis is that there is sort of a ceiling on its effects, it kind of in comparison, which is why there have been no deaths associated with it. Whereas alcohol, in contrast, the person kind of keeps. Keeps drinking until essentially they have respiratory arrest or, you know, some other effect like that. So it's something about alcohol specifically. If you talk to police officers, for example, they will definitely tell you that if they're managing, say, a rock concert or something like that, they would prefer a crowd that smokes cannabis versus the heavy drinkers in terms. In terms of crowd control, for example.

Example, I, you know, I, years ago in Salt Lake City, used to work extensively with the economic development organization there. And I remember a gentleman who actually was head of probation there said I would much. And this was long before, you know, cannabis was legal anywhere. This was back in the 80s, early 90s. And he would say to me, it would break my heart to have to arrest somebody who had been, you know, out of prison for quite some time, sitting at home with his family, and he would have to arrest him if he smoked cannabis, but he wouldn't if he did alcohol. And in his opinion, just what you said is so true, he would much rather them, you know, smoke some cannabis instead of start drinking. Because then, you know, there was this propensity for the dramatic to kind of emerge, the domestic violence, those kinds of things, the outrage. And I remember really making note of that, just thinking, wow, that's. That is really something. So I totally agree. And I wonder sometimes it must be the way that our brain is wired for alcohol, that sometimes, you know, if they're a little bit as good, a whole lot more is better. And there seems to be this chasing it at one, at some point in time, you know, in the experience of alcohol, where, you know, you just think more is better, you know, until you do pass out or blackout or those kinds of things.

That's right. And that's one of the things that we're really learning about alcohol addiction, really any addiction, but specifically alcohol, as. As far as the people who develop drinking problems, they really do have a different response to the alcohol. You know, we don't think of alcohol as an opioid like. Like morphine or. Or oxycodone or. Or heroin or something like that of why we like alcohol in terms of the specific effect that causes the buzz. It's because of way it affects our. Our opioid system. When you drink alcohol, it releases endorphins, which are these naturally occurring opioids in our brain, and that's what gives you the buzz. But we know that people who develop problems, they really do. They have a heightened or exaggerated response to. To the ingestion of alcohol. It causes an exaggerated release of the. These endorphins. And so the brain kind of lights up. It's like it hit the jackpot. It really enjoys this experience. And that creates exactly what you just said, which is if one is good, two is better, which. And three is. Is even. Even better. It creates that compulsive chasing for it because it really is a reinforcing experience for them.

So before we start talking about the Sinclair method, let's talk about, from your perspective, the pros and cons that you've seen over the years of your career about the treatments for alcohol or how we handle alcohol addictions. We have some pretty predisposed ideas about how that's supposed to roll and what it is we're supposed to do. And I think it would be really helpful to hear your thoughts on those ways of doing things, shall we say, old ways. Right. Of managing addiction. And the first one that comes to mind for me is just the good old abstinence. You know, like, why don't you just stop? And I can't tell you how many clients or couples that have this as a component of their relational challenges say, I don't. I don't understand. The person who's saying this, of course, is the person who's not wrestling with the addiction of alcohol. So I love what you just said. We all respond or engage with this substance differently. It affects our brains differently, our bodies differently. But there's this idea of, like, why can't you just stop? Especially when you see all the destruction that's happening in our lives and in our families. Just stop. Just stop it. So abstinence seems to be something that's promoted quite a bit. Here. And I would love to hear your thoughts on the pros and cons of abstinence and why. Why so often it doesn't work? You know, it makes such a logical sense, but doesn't work. That's right. More times than that.

Well, it's important. You know, the word addiction itself comes from a Latin word, addictus, which in the. Under Roman law was where they used to. To mean that the person became enslaved somehow by a court ruling. So even kind of, you know, from early on, the word, some relationship to being enslaved in some particular way, and it really is the language that people use to discuss it. You know, this is something that you don't need to point out the negative consequences. Often people are aware of what's happening as a result of their, of their drinking. So one of the things. And you, so you mentioned kind of traditional treatments and of course AA being the most popular one. I would say one of the things that they all have in common just, just in contrast to the Sinclair method, is that they don't really get to the, to the underlying compulsive neurology or the compulsion that has a neurological underpinning that your brain is actively seeking out this rewarding experience once the addiction has set in. So a lot of them, or essentially the core idea of them is to help the person develop coping skills to manage these, this compulsion to, to, to manage your brain's cravings, to manage your brain's interest and, and essentially getting those endorphins. And so abstinence is, as you said, it's kind of thought of, well, just stop drinking and, and, and give it enough time and, and then you'll be fine. One of the interesting things about aa, I think, and they, they actually do a lot of wisdom, I think, in terms of descriptions of certain behaviors. And it's definitely not something that should just be thrown out wholesale. One of the, one of the main things I think they point out is that, that no longer, no matter how long you've been abstinent, whether it's five years or 10 years or whatever it might be, once you pick up and start drinking again, you're going to, you're going to pick up right back where you left off 5, 10, or 20 years ago. And I think that's a fascinating point that they make because what it shows is that abstinence is really not a treatment. If after five, 10 or 20 years, not a single thing has changed. If you, if you pick up exactly where you left off, that means that nothing about the fundamental issue really has changed at all. One of the things that kind of, kind of the first step in Dr. Sinclair developing this strategy was, was when he was working with mice and rats or rodents, he realized he would essentially, the mice would become dependent on alcohol and then he would essentially make them abstinent. They would, you know, he would deprive them of it. And he thought that this would result in a gradual decline in interest. But actually when he re exposed them to alcohol, not only did they pick up where they left off as predicted by aa, but they actually drank in an increased way, essentially making up for lost time, which is also what you hear a lot in aa, that when people finally do relapse and pick up again, it's, it's the vendor that gets them the DUI or it's the vendor that, that, that, that causes a significant amount of problems. And he called that the alcohol, the alcohol deprivation effect, which is essentially that the depriving of the alcohol actually creates this pent up demand. And then when you finally have exposure to it again, you're going to, you're going to overdo it. So you see this a lot with like dry Januarys people after the holidays, as we mentioned, People try to, to heal in some way, so they decide not to drink for a month or so. But what you find is on February 1st you could expect a big, you can expect a big party on February 1. Of all the people who, you know, kind of were grinding it out for, for a whole month. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So all of a sudden we've got that 100% increase all over again, right?

That's right. And you. Exactly. And you probably find this true for not just alcohol, but if you're trying not to eat cookies or whatever it is.

I was just gonna say you can compare it to diets. And also sadly, all the celebrities who've died of overdoses, the same thing happens because they try to go back to the same amount of drugs they were taking before and then unfortunately they pass away. So it, it's, it's kind of like a, you know, a life principle. Not necessarily just alcohol.

It's very relatable, very general.

It's a very general principle of how we. Because one of the ideas of addiction and the Sinclair method is just the, the basic idea of what's called operant conditioning, which, which it's sort of. Usually people are taught it with the Pavlovs dogs, that's a little bit different. Operant conditioning essentially just learning really, it's that we are going to have behaviors increased Behaviors that are rewarding are more likely to repeat them, and behaviors that are not rewarding or unpleasurable, we're going to get less of them. So, as you just mentioned, these are very general principles. This idea of taking a reward from a behavior. Not just addiction, but overeating, you know, Internet addiction, all kinds of things.

Yeah. Over shopping, you know, wonderful. Credit card. You got a credit card. Let's max that sucker out. I think. I think that absolutely ties into the neurology of how we work as human beings, which if I feel like I can't have something, I want more of it. Just automatically by saying I can't have it. There's this desire for having it. And if I've had it before and I've abstained from it, then there's this overcorrection where I've got to get in as much as I possibly can because it might be taken away again. Right? That's right. I'm going to absolutely get my hands on every stitch of it that I possibly can while the taken is good. And although that doesn't make a lot of logical sense, when we start to think about it, I think we have to understand that there's such an emotional driver there that sometimes that goes very unconscious for us, that that's very much an emotionally driven experience and not necessarily a logical experience at all.

Well, and when you are talking about alcoholism, there's also a form of punishment kind of that goes along with it, because I have a really close family member who's an alcoholic, and so she would try not to drink because she was trying not to make her family mad. So not only do they really want it, but they know that if they do it, it's going to be very disappointing to a lot of people around them. And so. And they know that there's only a certain amount of times that they can keep doing that, because then, you know, a lot of people say, well, kick them out or don't talk to them anymore or just push them out of your life. So there's a whole other layer on top of it that, you know, as a. As the person who wasn't addicted, we did those things a couple of times. And now looking back on it, I. I don't think that was right to do, you know, because that person was just left alone and had to try to deal with it on their own, which obviously they would go back to drinking because that's how they cope with things, and we would just not know about it. But I think that's a conversation Maybe not. This might not be the right time for it, but that's a conversation I think, that we need to have around addiction. Because punishing the person and making them on an island is definitely not the answer, I don't think, to solving the problem of why they're drinking in the first place.

I'm just going to step in and play devil's advocate. Not at all that I believe this, because I believe with you, Brookie, and that's a huge part of our work. And I'm sure, Brian, you too. It's kind of like the idea you, you can't punish them enough in order to inspire them to change or to turn it around or, or to feel better or get a handle on this addiction problem that we're talking about. But to be the voice here that says, but what am I supposed to do? You know, I see the destruction, I see the non dysfunctional experience, experiences and behavior that are continuously playing out. I don't know how else to stop it. So the only thing I know to do now is to kind of like cut them off, push them out, you know, and, and separate myself from the crazy that goes on with all of this. And, and I know that in relationships, you know, we tend to, to push, you know, hanging in there for as long as we possibly can. Personally, if I'm not the one that's struggling, like, and that's a, that's a really hard decision to make, to push you away because I love you, I care about you, but I've tried everything else and I don't know what else to do. And now I'm falling apart and I'm breaking down as a human being. So what the hell am I supposed to do, right? What are my other options? This is a great place, Brian, where you step in and. Because I'd love to hear your perspective on this.

That's right. I think to Brooke's point about kind of punishing a person beyond just the external damage that they're causing in terms of the relationships, legal issues, job performance, those types of things, their health even, of course, there's a lot of self abuse that goes along with it. In other words, the person who is drinking has guilt and shame and self criticism and all these other types of things. So it's kind of. If those things were helpful, there's no shortage of those types of things. Those things have been tried over and over again. So if that was helpful, it would have worked by now and perhaps some percentage of people at work early on in the stage and we don't see those people, but we can say for sure that after some extent down the path they're on the criticism and punishment and these types of things have been tried and they, they aren't successful. And, and, and it's because it's not rational. The part of your brain that, that is kind of interested in, in the pursuit of this, this reward is not doing some calculation of pros and cons. It's, it's a single minded pursuit of get, obtain this reward at all costs. And so even if it means X, Y and Z. So, so that's why it is, it is a completely irrational behavior.

Yeah, it's, it's such a driver there. And I have found and would love everybody to chime in because I don't want to leave everybody hanging, you know, so like, like, yeah, what am I supposed to do? Like, what's the best approach then? If I, if I can't, you know, criticize them and punish them and push them away, you know, what am I supposed to do instead? And, and I would say lean in and say, hey, we got, let's work on this together. You know, how can I support you? Let's find some help together. Let me walk this journey with you. Take my believe in you. I believe we can get through this. I believe that there's a better place for us and let's learn about it. Let's study, let's explore some options, let's get some support and help. Because here's what I do know is that people are probably not going to be able to get through this on their own. Right. It's kind of like if we keep it our dirty little secret inside of the household and not let anybody know and I'll support your drinking habit and we're going to negotiate about how this is supposed to go down, you know, this time of year or on our anniversary or on your birthday. That doesn't work either. And so it's kind of like we got to shed some light on it and take the shame away and say, hey, it's quasi okay to have this as a challenge. Many people do. Let's just learn about it. Let's get better at it. Let's understand it well, let's talk to people who have been successful with it.

I would also say it's kind of like the ultimate human experiment that shows you can't change for anybody other than yourself. So speaking in terms of the alcoholic, if they're not willing to stop drinking for their children or their husband or, you know, at risk of Losing their home or their job or any of those things. It just goes to show you that's how strong the addiction is. So when I started thinking about it that way, it took me like 30 years to get there because I grew up with this issue in my household. Took me a long time to understand this, but once I realized that, I was like, oh, this person was never trying to hurt me. This person was never doing this to disappoint me. This person was never drinking this much to make my childhood terrible. This person was in a lot of pain, and they could. There was nothing that they could do to stop it. So I feel like once you really get that, it. It makes. It just makes you kind of sad, you know, it makes you. Not because of what happened to you, but sad for the person, you know, and you can have some empathy instead of so much judgment, which is what I had for a very long time.

Yeah, Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, it's. It's an awful, awful thing to, To. To be captured by. You know, if you and I. I think your, Your kind of. Kind of movement towards compassion is, Is really. Is really what's going to be necessary on a societal level, too, because like you said, judgment and blame, all these things, they really, they aren't helpful. Even if you just look, say, think empirically or where's the evidence? You know, it's. It's not an effective approach.

Right.

The judgment. So, so we should.

And I just want to. I want to create a distinction here that empathy is not equal to just going along with things. There's a huge distinction there, you know, between saying, hey, let's work on this together. You know, this must be really hard for you. You know, let's. Let's get some help and support together. And then just thinking, oh, empathy means I just have to go along with it or I have to support it or I have to be a part of it. There's a huge distinction there. And sometimes when we start talking about empathy and not punishing somebody or attempting to force them to stop because we see how destructive it is to us, to our families, to them, quite frankly, we have a tendency to not know how to switch ourselves out of that line of thinking. And so I just want to create that distinction. That means, no, we're going to get some help. We need to get some support. I'm going to. I hope that you'll follow me. We've got to turn this around. And I'm willing to walk with you. And I, And I love that version of empathy. That means I walk with you. That means you're going to take my hand and we're going to figure this out together. So that I remind you and me that we're not alone, But I'm also the voice that says, come on, we can do this. You can do this. I believe in you. And I think those are the parts and pieces that often go missing in the conversation around addiction. That I believe in you and us to figure this out. Right. It's.

It's.

And that. That very quickly turns into, you gotta stop. You gotta get a handle on this. What's wrong with you? I can't believe you're doing this again. You know, why are you drinking again? It's. No, I believe in. And I think that's more impactful.

Yeah. And I think some of the. In terms of seeking help, a lot of the old idea of people being in denial, it really. Now a person might claim that there's no issue, but really much of that is just about kind of the consequences of acknowledging an issue. You know, if. If I admit that I have a drinking problem, therefore I need to. Whatever's in that, that means to them, I have to go to rehab. I have to do xyz. I have to. And of course, the part of their brain that is addicted, that's the last thing on earth it has any interest in. In doing. It's going to rehab. So of course it's going to claim that there's no, there's no problem here. But I, I've really. People I work with through the years, they know that they're. That they drink too much, they want to drink less. There's no. So even though they might deny it or minimize it, it's because with the consequences of just being open about it, I might get them yelled at or whatever it is, you know, so that's. That's where the secrecy and lies even from a lot of times as well.

I think it's important for us to just point out here in this conversation some situations and circumstances that if you don't struggle with alcohol, you may not be aware of that come up for very commonly the person who is addicted to alcohol and sometimes the catch 22 that they're put in as a human being. And where I'm going with this is humans connect and they have for thousands of years around food and beverage, like that's a gathering point. And if we were to gather around a table and everybody was pulling out the alcohol for a good glass of wine around the meal and You're a person who knows that you, you know, once you get started, you can't necessarily keep a handle on it, but you want to be a part of what's happening. And not only that, the people that you're with want you to be a part of. There's nothing worse than feeling like you prepared a wonderful meal and pulled out some really good beverage, and now somebody's not going to partake of it. It's kind of disappointing to the host and the people at the table as well. And that's where we're going to start into experiencing maybe some peer pressure, you know, Come on. Oh, have one. Try it. It's going to be delicious. I've done this myself. I mean, even knowing what I know and the work that I do, if there's somebody that's gathering around my table that doesn't necessarily want to try a wine or, or. Or something that's being offered around the table, my first thought, because I don't struggle with alcohol, is maybe, maybe this is something they're trying to do for themselves. I would say, oh, come on, it's from this and it's this, and it's this varietal. You're going to love it. This is where we got it. I'm going to start telling them the whole story behind it. And of course, then they feel like they. They want to be a part of, you know, so we. Sometimes we don't realize that when we abstain from alcohol or. Or don't have really great skills for managing it. It really separates us from the connection that's available at the table. Because this is how we as human beings connect. This. This was an experience that wasn't driven home for me primarily with alcohol, but when I was studying raw food and I got really fanatical about it, and I remember a woman saying, I, oh, well, when you go home for the holidays, you just prepare your own little side dish and you say, oh, thanks for the meal, but then you just pull out your own and you just enjoy that at the table. And I remember that hit me like a ton of bricks. Like, that would never be okay because you're now disconnecting from everything that's happening around the table. The connection happens because we're sharing the same food, we're sharing the same conversation, we're sharing the same beverage. And there's an incredible intensity as well as a get to there that if I'm feeling like I can't participate in those kinds of things, there's a literally a level of Disconnection that I'm not able to partake of while this is all unfolding for everybody else but me. And it also can cause me to feel like I'm an outcast, you know, that everybody gets to do this, but I don't, which then that's not good. So then the anxiety starts to creep up, right? And now I don't want to go home for the holidays. I don't want to be a part of these things because it makes me feel awkward or not a part of. So it's just easier to avoid the whole thing altogether. And so now I'm even more isolated with my drinking, and my drinking becomes more of my best friend as everybody else is going on to have a great time, right, And a great experience around this thing called food and beverage. And I think that's something that we need to point out here, that sometimes we. It seems so simple for those of us that don't struggle with this, but for those of us who do, it's kind of a catch 22. I want to connect. I want to be a part of. I want to be included. I want to enjoy what you're all enjoying. And now I've got to choose. I. I'm in a catch 22.

Yeah, I think that, well, the studies are very clear that that's the number one reason people hesitate to. To. To quit drinking altogether is because of the social consequences of it. And, you know, one of the things too, that, that, that is interesting is that, you know, most of the alcohol addiction studies, they use abstinence as a. As a goal or kind of a metric for success. But as we've been discussing, abstinence is not really the ideal outcome because it is perfectly normal to drink in a social way. In some sense, that would be the optimal type of treatment. What treatment results in a person to drink socially, to drink in a controlled way. And so it's not the case that drinking is a problem in and of itself. It's just that problem drinking is a problem. So if a person is not problem drinking, there is no problem because it's perfectly normal in our. In our culture to. To drink. So but even, even the, the research itself kind of sets up this thing where the optimal outcome is something that actually is abnormal in our. In our culture. And so, you know, most of the people I work with, they don't want to quit drinking altogether. That really is. They want to be social drinkers. They want to be like their spouse or whoever they have in mind that just has one or two or zero or whatever it might be. And that's what most people want. Some people do want the abstinent completely just for whatever reason they're tired of it or just because even small amounts can, can worsen your, your health or. But to want to drink with their co workers once in a while or a wedding or a football game or whatever it is.

Which takes us to what it is you bring as a solution to this conversation. So tell us a little bit about the Sinclair method. I'll let you take it away because I, I think this is, this is why I've been so excited to share this is there is a new way aside from this conversation about, you know, I either create a problem with, you know, my problem drinking or I create a problem with disconnecting from human beings around me that love me and I want to be a part of that. And I think that's a hell of a choice to have to make, you know, as a human being. Like that sucks. So I love, I love your method because of this. So tell us about it.

Yeah, and I think one of the kind of, kind of even kind of pre treatment tests, it's just kind of convincing that the person that, that there's some kind of simple solution available. And I think the barriers in people's minds, like I was saying, either going to rehab or having to give it up completely in a social sense or whatever the other detox, whatever the cost might be. So one of the nice things about the Sinclair method is that there, you know, there are no meetings, there's no detox, there's no inpatient treatment. But also there is a. No abstinence required. You know, a person of course could use the, this approach which I'll describe in a second, but they could use it to, to work towards abstinence but that's not necessary and most people, people don't in fact do that. Again, most people drink. Their goal is to drink in a non problematic way like, like most of us do. So you know, the basic idea of the, the Sinclair method is, is simply to take away the, of drinking. As I mentioned, when you drink it causes these endorphins to be released which is part of our opioid system. So naltrexone will, as a med, FDA approved medication. You take the medicine at least an hour before you drink and it will block, block the buzz. Essentially it functions as a buzz blocker. Those endorphins will be blocked. What's also interesting about it too is it doesn't block any of the other effects of alcohol, which most, most of us don't think of it as kind of this, you know, combination of experiences. But so you'll just have this buzz blocked, but you could still be impaired and slurred speech and loss of balance and, and all these other effects. So it's a very specific effect on the, on, on the brain. It just blocks the buzz. But what you find is that when you don't, when your brain is not rewarded for, for a previously rewarded behavior, then you gradually, those neurological pathways, there's associations that, that your brain has for this behavior of drinking it, they diminish. So previously or every time you've had a drink leading up to, to this, this behavior has been rewarded in this very specific chemical way. But now you're going to take this medicine prior to drinking and it blocks that buzz. And so over time, takes about four to six months. You're just going to see a gradual reduction of the behavior. You're just going to get less of that. And I always kind of say it's kind of like if they stop paying you at work, you would eventually stop showing up. You would not stick around very long in those situations. You, you would, you would go somewhere else. So that's kind of the idea. It's very commonsensical. You know, I think at first glance, because it involves drinking, people think there's something radical or unusual about it. But really, as I was saying, you have to have the behavior of drinking combined with, with no reward to reverse those pathways. Abstinence does not really address those issues. So you have to actively reverse those pathways because time alone does not change the addictive mind. And so what it looks like is eventually people. So you're not getting this reward. You're not getting this reward. And you know, we have people logging their, their drinks, so they might start off with two bottles of wine is kind of a night, is pretty typical or something like that to eight to ten shots a night. I mean, you know, we see all kinds of, you know, very, very large amounts. So after a month or so, let's say it's, we'll just say it's 10 shots of vodka or something. So after a month you could say they're averaging 10, 10 shots of vodka. After a month they'd be averaging about seven, which again, if you're looking on the outside, you're saying, okay, well that's a lot, seven shots of vodka. But in the next month it's about, about five, and then the next month it's three, and then, and then eventually it's only four nights a week. And so it just, it just reduces gradually over four to six months, about 25, 30% each month is, is what we see. And ultimately what's nice about it is you don't have to take it every day. If you ultimately wind up just drinking once or twice a week, then you just take the medication once or twice a week and it blocks it. But so we kind of think of it as like a seat belt or something like that. You know, if you're going to drive, you're always going to want to wear your seatbelt. If you don't drive, you don't wear your seatbelt. So for people who have this sort of neurological predisposition, it's going to be very, very wise to take this medication prior to drinking. It will essentially normalize the experience for you. Instead of your brain lighting up in this excited way, it's going to be, you're going to have an experience of drinking similar to other people who are not overdoing it, who do have break that you don't.

Mm. I love this because I'm such a believer of changing behavior. Right. What we can do to change the behavior is going to be probably the better path of progression because until the behavior changes, the habits that, that support that behavior are not. And I think this is where understanding the neuroplasty of our brain is really helpful as well. You know, sometimes there's a big downer in thinking that, you know, what gets fired together gets wired together in our brain. And we know that that's a very common thing, whether we're talking about addiction or sex or some of the human experiences that we have in relationship to all of our human experiences. And now you're capitalizing on that ability for that neuroplasty that we can start to rewire it and we can practice rewiring that association to a particular element, which I think is brilliant, because over time that's going to be a longer lasting solution for a human and quite frankly, some somewhat of a disappointment where you drink it and you're expecting a certain experience and then it's kind of like.

That's right, that's right. Which is what my experience is. Normally, you know, I, I, I, I always tell people that I. People's descriptions of drinking with naltrexone is similar to my own experience where I just get kind of sleepy and I, you know, it's not clear to me why someone would want a second or third of it, you know, so it's very interesting but it really is, you know, the idea here is that you just, just, you know, it doesn't involve specific coping skills to fend to fight a war essentially the rest of your life. It really takes away your brain's interest. So you don't have the cravings, you don't have the intrusive thoughts, you don't have, you don't really even have to think about it as such. Cause you're essentially reverting back to the state prior to drinking where there was no reward associated with the behavior.

So let me ask, I mean, I mean this, I mean this sounds very encouraging. I've never even aware of it for people. I'm sure that you work with people, Brian, that have tried all the, you know, traditional methods that we all just discussed and then they step in and work with you. I, I gotta believe that's gotta be a very incredible sense of hope for these, for these people, you know, and gives them a new perspective that I, they maybe never, I've never heard of it. And I guess my main question is what type of a long term success do they have using this process?

Well, I'll tell you, the first actual reaction is often anger. Depending on how much money they've spent on other, other treatments or you know, why didn't I know about this? How long has this been? You know, it's like they want answers, you know, like who, why, why, why are you the first person telling me this? And so, so there's that and it just kind of in conjunction with to that it's actually been FDA approved. The medication Naltrexone has actually been FDA approved since 94. So it's, it's been out for a really long time. But what happened is that it was FDA approved. But then subsequent studies, actually the largest study of naltrexone was negative cause was in a way that encouraged abstinence. So they told the person, they were telling the people, don't take your naltrexone and just don't drink. You know, go as long as you can without drinking. And it didn't beat placebo. And that studies in the New England Journal of Medicine. So it wasn't until Dr. Seclair started doing these other kind of experiments and realizing that the people who drank actually showed some benefits. They, and, and if, if the study had been longer, you would have seen these kind of continued reductions in it. So yeah, so a lot of people are kind of of like you saying well either one, it's too good to be true. So there could Be some skepticism, that kind of thing. Why haven't I heard of this? If this works like you suggest, that type of thing. The long term, the usual number that you see in some of the studies, the studies of Dr. Sinclair, is 78% success rate. It's sort of hard to, to know exactly, just kind of in terms of, you know, because one of the ideas is that we, we don't see people very often. You know, the idea is that this is not a. We don't think of people as being in kind of this recovery where they're requiring this ongoing treatment. With us, if we Prescribe, you know, 30 tablets to someone, that might last them a year or two, you know, or forever, depending on what their goals are. So. But 78% seems about right. Just in this, in my sense of things that most people, for sure, I can say complete confidence, most people. And really, again, it's not that they are waging some war to see how long they can go fending off this, these cravings and urges. When I say success with the Sinclair method, what I mean is that essentially they've arrived, arrived at a point of indifference to alcohol. They can take it or leave it. If there's a happy hour later, great, I'll take medicine. And, and, but then if I don't drink for two weeks, I'm not patting myself on the back about it either. It's just, it's just not something that is there. So, so when we say success rate, what we mean is that we call it extinction, which means that that association between the behavior of drinking and the reward no longer exists. And so it's. And going back to the kind of Latin root of the word of being, being enslaved. We like to say that the person is therefore liberated from this neurological kind of hijacking.

Now that's, that's so great. And I, I love what you said about it's not drinking that's the problem. It's problem drinking. And you've basically eradicated that. There is no problem drinking as long as I wear my seat belt and take the medicine. Right.

And, and does one need to go right. Does one need to get this med is from. From a physician or someone that can, that can prescribe this for you?

That's right. Yeah, we have. I'm a nurse practitioner, psychiatric nurse practitioner, in which my role and scope of practice depends on what state you're in. But, but, but we, like in Washington state, for example, nurse practitioners prescribe physicians. A lot of times people do get it from their family doctor, although often the family doctor has no idea, which is another topic. They have no idea about the Sinclair method, but they prescribe it to him anyway. Just I guess it's a matter of courtesy. But yeah, it does, it does require a prescription, which is interesting that the, the, that you know, the alcohol itself does not require any training or you don't have to speak to anyone to obtain. And in fact you walk right by it in the pharmacy on your way, you know, to pick up your, your medicine. It's in the alcohol itself is in the pharmacy. You can pick that up without talking to someone like me. So it's interesting how it's, it. There are actually barriers to, to this that exist because it is a very safe drug. You know, we have a lot of opioid receptors, a lot of serotonin receptors, dopamine. Most of those, what we think of psychiatric receptors are really in our stomach. So in terms of side effects, it's, it really is well tolerated, but it can cause GI distress, you know, nausea, diarrhea, that kind of thing. But in terms of comparing it to alcohol, in terms of side effects, in terms of consequences, you know, it's, it's a much, it's a much, much safer drug than alcohol, of course.

Well. So Brian, tell listeners that are interested in exploring the Sinclair method where they might find you. I think you would be a really great place to begin the conversation. And I know you have resources on your website, et cetera. So, so where would you point people who are wanting to explore this deeper?

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Just as far as we are concerned, just. Sinclairmethod.org.org and you know, of course there's lots of information on there. I always encourage people, especially if you're say a spouse and you're introducing it to someone. If you go to our blog section, it's actually in different sections on the website, but it definitely is in the blog section. There's a video of where the Sinclair method. It wasn't called the Sinclair method method, but it was the Sinclair method. It was a story that they did on NBC News and they show people drink, taking their pill and then drinking and they talk to some of the physicians on there. So I think again on the, on the surf, on the face of it, the first time you hear it, it might sound like snake oil or something like, you know, why, why, what is this? But I think just seeing that it was on NBC News adds a lot of credibility to it. It was also in the Atlantic. It was an article in the Atlantic and there's just more and more information available online. But to me, if I were to kind of just start from scratch with someone, I would look at that. NB There's a book called the Cure for Alcoholism by a psychologist. You can get that on Amazon or anywhere really. But it's essentially a description of Sinclair method as well. And again, there's, in terms of introducing it to someone, that addictive part of your brain is going to resist anything that involves abstinence. So I think it's really nice that if, if you are introducing this to someone, you can say, you don't have to quit drinking. You just got to take this medicine. You don't have to do anything. In fact, we encourage people to not even necessarily try to drink less when they start. Like, we just want them to take the medicine, create like the easiest possible entry into this. And a lot of times they see, oh, you know what, that's, that's strange. I, you know, I stopped after seven shots, which is normally not the case. I normally finish the bottle and yet I didn't, you know, it's like I stopped with some left in the bottle last night, which is the first time that's ever happened. So you start seeing, hearing things like that.

Well, and going back to, you know, that idea that we mentioned earlier, you can't punish somebody enough to promote the change or perpetuate the behavior change that you wanting to see. I think this is an easier place to begin by saying, hey, let's walk this together, take my hand. Let's just, let's just take the medicine. We don't have to do anything else. And I think it, it's going to be a refresher in regards to opening up the conversation so that we can explore and talk about it in better ways. And now we've got something that we can just say, just begin, let's just begin here and see how it takes us.

And may I ask, I mean, no, it does. It's such a radical approach of difference that I would have to believe. Yeah. From the person that has never heard of anything like this, you say it's like this is almost too good to be true. But let me, may I ask, ask, from the traditional side of, of the, of the challenge, you know, more in. Steeped in the abstinence and AA and treatment, how is this Sinclair method viewed from. Though that side of, of the aisle, so to speak, is it viewed as not a, not a viable option or is it viewed openly?

Well, it's, it's certainly there is some resistance to it, it's interesting if you, if you look at some of the, the reasons why people oppose it, a lot of them, you know, have to do with, with not getting at the root cause or some of these other things, but they really aren't, you know, kind of, there's not really a scientific basis for, for kind of their resistance. The other thing is too, of course, a lot of people have professional, a lot professionally at stake for this. They've, they've been trained a particular way. There's a lot. So we see, we do see some kind of defensiveness about it now. We don't discourage people from doing various things. And I think AA is a wonderful program for certain things. You know, like, it talks about having a fearless moral inventory and righting the wrongs. And I mean, all the things are great. So, so we don't both. We can do both. Exactly. But I think, but. So there's, there's some criticism, especially if it's presented as this kind of paradoxical. Like there were articles you used to see, like drink yourself sober, those types of things. But once you explain that it's simply just taking away the reward and, and that there are many, many examples around us constantly where we're rewarded, you know, like where our, you know, we repeat behaviors based on reward, it seems more commonsensical. So, so I think it's just usually when people hear it with an open mind, it just makes sense to people. I mean, it does make sense. So I think, I think. But it is catching on. If you look at the number of prescribers, number of, you know, kind of Google searches for the term so forth, like it, it is increasing.

Why I just gotta say this and then, gosh, it would be great for all of us to kind of like take a takeaway that, that we're all personally taking away from the conversation today that we want to leave behind to the listener. But you and I, Brian, come from very similar places where we don't believe we have to get to the root of the problem in order to change behavior going forward. We just change the trajection that we're going in. And I'm very much an anomaly in my profession as well, that we believe in therapy we've got to get down to the root of the cause and we've got to get to the bottom of it. And I say we're probably not going to make that journey. Actually. That's probably not going to benefit us a lot simply because of what's emotionally required. We're going to run out of Gas. So let's just begin where we are and start going in a new direction right away. And I think that's going to, as we get stronger going forward, help us if we need to reflect on some of the things about that root problem. Right. Or that root cause. If we begin there, we're probably not going to make. Make the journey. Right. It's going to be a big struggle. And I very much hear you saying that in this approach as well.

What's interesting, because that is exactly what I think. So you picked up correctly. And in fact, what's interesting, cognitive behavioral therapy is kind of the most studied and well supported type of therapy. But if you were to ask most people or clinicians who practice it even to describe it, that they would really start with the cognitive aspects, they would talk about cognitive distortions and black and white thinking and all those things are important. But really it's the behavioral part of cbt, of cognitive behavioral therapy really does not get enough credit as there were at least two large studies that broke down the components of cbt and what they found was that a particular part of the behavioral component called behavioral activation, which is essentially just behaving in ways that are constructive, reinforcing positive, essentially behaving in the ways that you want to. The type of person you want to behave. Exactly. I want to start exercising, I want to join a community group, I want to start recycling or whatever it is. So that component behavioral activation was actually responsible for the majority of the benefits of cbt. It was the single most important part, which is to simply start behaving in a particular way, start behaving like a non depressed person, start behaving like a non anxious person, start behaving like a. Like whatever. So, so behavior really, I certainly emphasize that. And behavioral strategies are, in my opinion, you know, the most helpful and also the most enduring. Comparing behavioral activation to antidepressants, for example, actually a slightly superior behavioral activation in terms of sustaining remission of symptoms.

So totally agree with you, my friend. Up top. High five on that one.

That's right. But it's interesting too because, you know, the pandemic essentially created a shrinkage of our world in terms of the behaviors that we could do. And so it was kind of like a natural experiment in terms of, you know, the mental health issues that the country, the world, I guess, experience people. It's because the types of things that we would normally do, whether it be community or just going to the gym, or all the things that make us healthy and non depressed, were taken away from Us. So it's kind of even a really good example of how. How changing behavior, you know, that the behavior is kind of the priority. If you change the behavior, the driver. If you change the behavior, you're going to change your mood. But a lot of people are waiting for the right mood to come before they change your behavior. And I always say, might be waiting a long time because it might not come. So you might want to, you know, so do these other things. So. Yeah, right.

Totally agree with you. One last thought you've just triggered, for whatever it's worth, during the pandemic, we have this really fun brewery that's not far from our house. And I'll never forget get pulling up there one Sunday afternoon when everybody was supposed to be quarantined. We were going for a drive and there were literally camp chairs set up on both sides of the street, and people were. Were wanting to just connect, right? They were. So they were all bringing their own beer and they were. They were lined up six feet apart down both sides of the street, and they were talking, you know, and. And some of them, you had like a little megaphone to make the hearing back and forth even better. But I. I just think, think that is such a great example of, you know, if you take away the things that. That bring joy to us, right, that make us feel good or connected as a human being, then what's the purpose to live? Right. I think those are big conversations that we're now exploring and seeing the impact of, you know, that there becomes this moment where I'm going to will, I'm going to risk it because it's better than what I'm feeling and experiencing now as a human being. And that's just such a memory that's emblazed in my head, right, of how important and how much we need to need connection and interaction and these experiences that bring so much joy to us as a human being. So, Brian, thank you so much for your conversation and for being on the show here. It's just. I'm sure we'll have you come back and do this many times again. Any last takeaways or thoughts that we want to leave people with as we're saying goodbye here with the conversation, I.

Want to share one thought. For people who are maybe a spouse of an alcoholic or a child of alcohol. Alcohol child of an alcoholic. I just want you to think for a minute. The way that we have been taught to treat them is kind of how parents tell their children, if you're ever drunk, you can call me And I promise you won't get in trouble. And then you yell at them for getting drunk. You know, so why would. Why would your kid ever call you? We do the same thing to the alcoholics in our lives. Like, please, we're begging you to tell us the truth. Are you drunk? Did you drink? Do you have alcohol in your house? And then the second they tell us us that they do or they are drunk or they did drink, we berate them, and we're. How disappointed we are, and we cry, and, you know, we get so upset. And so just think for a moment why there's so much shame and guilt around these behaviors. Because we're doing this to them. Because we don't. We don't know any better. They don't know any better. It's a. You know, I'm not saying anyone is. Should be in trouble for this, but. But just take from my 36 years of dealing with an alcoholic relative and going on this journey together with them.

That.

That is not the way that you should deal with it. And it just elongates both of your periods of suffering. And I would say that approaching it with the Sinclair method would totally eliminate all of that painful suffering for both people, and it would be an excellent way to approach it without all of that emotional baggage. And so I would just like to thank Brian for sharing this gift, because I know it's gonna help a lot of people, and it's really near and dear to my heart, so it's very powerful.

I don't think there's much I can add to that.

Yeah, I. I really appreciate that. You know, it's such a. You never really hear the phrase alcohol, you know, epidemic, like you do with opioids. But really, in terms of deaths, in terms of lost labor, in terms of any kind of metric, alcohol is a larger societal problem. Alcohol addiction is a larger societal problem. So, you know, if you yourself are not suffering from it, it's something that you really care about is. So it's really. That's a fourth leading cause of perfection, preventable death for adults. You know, it's.

Wow.

It's really embedded in our culture. And as Burke mentioned, there's shame and all these, you know, other kinds of negative things. But really, it's nice here because you can drink. You know, you can Openly have your 7 shots of vodka that first month. That's, you know, and that's fine. You don't have to.

Yeah.

So there's kind of any damage to the relationship from dishonesty. I mean, all those types of things really start.

All that goes away.

Oh, that can start to heal. It's not a secret about it.

Yeah, it's wonderful. Well, Brian, have a happy holiday season, and thank you so much for being here with us and sharing your knowledge and expertise with us. And again, you guys just. Just reach out, check it out. You know, I get there's probably a lot, you know, flowing through your brain right now about all of this, but just go check it out and. And I promise you, the rest of us going to be made clear. So, Brian, thanks so much, and this has been a great conversation. I think one will have again, I'm sure, real soon.

Yeah, it was great meeting you, everyone, and happy holidays as well.

Happy holidays to you, too. Thank you.

We're gonna just invite you to get a glass of water or just exhale here for a minute as we kind of turn the corner, because we're gonna step into having a lot of fun. I know that that sometimes is a hard brain shift, but we can do it. Just because we're going through some challenges or having some heavy conversation doesn't mean that we can now change our focus here. So as we do every episode, what's going to be important for us, especially as we're approaching this holiday season that we've spoken of many times, is to right now on the front side, I'm going to encourage you to schedule some time to slow down, and if you don't schedule it now, it's not going to happen. It's kind of like that idea of it's going to continue to pick up ferocity. We're going to get crazy and busy, and we're going to create a lot of anxiety for ourselves and our partners and our families trying to get it all in. So before we start scheduling those holiday parties and gatherings and all the many wonderful things that have got to be done throughout the season, I'm going to just encourage you to schedule at least one, if not two places where you get to slow down and that can look like, you know, schedule massages. It could look like, create a spa in your own house. You know, just close the doors and exhale and treat yourself to some of your favorite things, like a bubble bath and some massage oil and some good reading or good books or good movies. Just going to kind of close myself away for a minute. But it could also be, you know, Tom and I recently visited a bathhouse, a Japanese bath house, which was incredible. Where you go from cold plunge to hot plunge to hot tub to sauna, to steam. Oh, it was incredible. And there was this place in the middle of the courtyard where you could kind of relax and hang out, and people were reading and talking, and it was an incredible experience. Whatever your choice of just slowing down is, is put it on the calendar and ensure that it happens, because this is going to ensure that we stay connected to the people that we love as well as to ourselves. Right. We get to create a place where we get to exhale and deal some time away there for. For you, for your loved ones, for your family. And anything you want to add about that, about the bath house or about what you want to do for the holiday season?

Well, no, other than, you know, again, this. I don't think it's. It's, you know, shocking, you know, breaking news that this is a time where I think we have more incredible tension maybe or. Or over. We're overbooked. We're over scheduled. You know, we're over everything. And it. It does take, I think, away from the. The true intent of the season. At least that's from my perspective. So. Yeah, so. So, you know, we like to say in our body of work, you can't give from an empty well.

Yeah.

So make sure you keep the. The well at the proper level.

And our song for this week's episode of can youn Feel It? Is such a good one for our conversation today. The artist Dax has a song called Dear Alcohol. And I couldn't think of a better song. His lyrics are, I got wasted because I didn't want to deal with myself tonight My thoughts get drowned until I feel all right and I keep drinking until I'm not someone I recognize. And the song has a really positive ending to it as well, where he says, I can do this. I can turn it around. I have the power within me. And I want you to know if you or someone that you love is struggling with this, we can turn it around. And let's do it in a simple, easy way. Let's just begin with creating an ease of it and an open dialogue and conversation where we can hold hands and we can walk this path together. That would be my hope for all of us there. Well, I think that's a wrap, babe. Thanks so much for being here with us inside the love shack this week. We're Tom and Stacey Bartley. It's a pleasure to be here with you and thank you so much to our guest, Brian Ryan. He has shed an incredible light and perspective as well as his wealth of expertise and knowledge on this conversation that's so important. I really encourage you to check him out. All right. We'll look forward to seeing you next time inside the Love Shack. Bye bye for now.

Okay, everybody, time to go. We gotta close the doors to the Love Shack for this week.

You don't have to go home, but.

You can't stay here. Come back to next week, though, and.

Join us for another edition of Love.

Shack live with Tom and Stacey Bartley.