#111: The Most Common Relationship Killer: How to Recognize and Combat Manipulation

Would you say manipulation is present in most or all of the clients that, that you work with?

It's, it's, it's, it is completely rampant in human beings. Like, this is a human condition that we find ourselves in. And again, we know it very well. It's really not your fault. You come by it rightly because it is what is taught, it is what is modeled, it is what's demanded. So you start to learn at the very moment where you realize you can't, you can't feel and express yourself in a way that's true and congruent to what you're feeling and experiencing on the inside.

Hey, thanks for coming. Welcome to the Love Shack.

Hey, welcome to the Love Shack. It's a little old place where we get to get together, explore fresh perspectives, ease job on juicy conversations to discover the things that really matter. And we're going to have a little bit of fun along the way. I'm Stacey Bartley and I am here with my co host and lover, Tom. This is episode number 111. It's a great way to start the year, isn't it? Yahoo. And today we're going to be talking about the number one reason your relationship is falling apart. We want you to understand this because as we can maybe scramble in regards to trying to understand what the heck is going on, we can come up with all kinds of crazy notions or reasons as to what the culprit is. And I'm going to just give it away right off the top here in the conversation. The number one reason that your relationship is falling apart is. Drumroll, please.

Drumroll, please.

Manipulation. Manipulation. And is at the heart of all relationship breakdown. Now, I know on the front side that sounds super simple, but maybe we should share with you a couple of stories of not what only happens in our relationship, but out and about with our clients. And even while we're shopping at the store. There are things that happen all the time regarding manipulation. And I'm just going to be.

Actually, sorry, I'm going to interrupt you right now. I know this is rare because you're introducing the show, but I also want to address the fact that I think a lot of people, when you say that, think number one. Oh, I'm not a manipulator. They think that manipulation is a psychological. It's like up there with narcissism. So they think it's number one, something that they never do and only certain kinds of people are manipulators and that it's totally not present in their relationship. So you've got it all wrong.

That was a very important input by the other person in our show, which is our daughter Brooke. She is sometimes known as the voice from the dark. If you're new to the show or if you're not watching, you can't see her. But that is Brooke, and she's also part of the show and has very wise insights, as you just experienced.

Well, so I was just going there. I was gonna say.

Before you were so rudely interrupted. No, just kidding, bro.

Holy cow. Everybody's coming in hot today. We are firing up for the new year.

If you're. If you're watching live. Yes. This is the first show of the new year. We're very excited.

Manipulation is something that we learn our. Our society, especially here in America, and our culture is based on it. And so it's not a matter of whether we do manipulation or not. You are a masterful manipulator. All of us are as human beings. And the real challenge is to see it and understand it for what it is and then know what to do instead. You're not a bad person when you're a manipulator. You are just highly trained. And we started to learn manipulation about the time we went to school, if we didn't learn it in our family of origin, right out of the womb. Because manipulation looks like trying to get somebody to do what they need to do. Like, have you ever had your parents say to you, you can go to the dance if you get your homework done, you can take the car and visit your friends when the grass is.

Laundry, the grass is finished being cut and trimmed and raked.

You don't do it like that. You do it like this. So those are very subtle forms of manipulation, and they can escalate to the point where we're literally trying to control people. We're trying to play the victim. We're trying to dismiss or shut down. So we leave huge voids. Like we walk out of the room and shut the door. That's a form of manipulation. And essentially, if you understand manipulation, then you can start to drop the labels of narcissism, codependency, attachment disorders, controlling, playing the victim. Because these are all just different expressions of really, at the heart of it, manipulation. So what all of those things I just mentioned have in common is, regardless of what the label might be, at the heart of it all is this idea of doubt. And if I can create doubt in you through gaslighting, through criticism, belittling, dismissing, dominating, then I essentially have manipulated you. And that means that my Goal is to get you to need me, to validate you in the way you see it. So it plays out like this. The more I can get you to doubt yourself, the way you see it, your perspective, how you would approach a task, a duty, a job, an expression, the more I can dismantle that, the more you're going to need me and my approval. And so it becomes what I call the race to the bottom. The more I play into the manipulations as the person who's feeling an exceptional amount of doubt, the more dismantled I feel with inside of myself, the more chaotic I feel inside. I really don't know where to stand. I really start questioning everything, all my thoughts, all my behaviors, everything I'm doing. Because it's seems as though even up to brushing my teeth, I just can't seem to get it right. I can't seem to get the approval or the acknowledgment or the validation that I'm seeking. And so I endeavor to do more and to do better. And the more I allow that to play out. The person who's doing the manipulation, just in an effort to, you know, I may. I've got it all figured out. It makes sense to me. I know the way I. I insist that we do it my way because I know best that that person that's doing the manipulation gets a false sense of. If you go along with me and if you agree, then I must be right. Right? So, see, I do have it all figured out. See, I am in charge. See, I am the one that needs to steer this ship because I'm the only one that knows. And you need to follow along. And it plays out in this dynamic of parent, child all over again, where the parent knows the way. Always. The parents always right. The parent strong, stronger, bigger, faster, better. So we think, and the child continues to get, you know, diminished, diminished, diminished. And then we play it all out in our love relationships. Again. Let me just give you this equation. I think this kind of sums it up because I made a bold statement when the show started. If we were to boil manipulation down into its simplest form, it would be simply this. You do what I say, you'll get what you want. And so let me just vet that out for you, right? If you show up at your job and you do what your boss says, you get what you want, which is a paycheck. If you obey the laws of the land and you're a good boy and girl and Tom, obey all the traffic signals and stop lights, then you get your freedom. You're Going to avoid jail, being locked up, being fined, being penalized in school if you show up on time, do your homework, pass the test, you get your diploma or you get to pass on to the next grade, you get a rise in economic development, in job security and those kinds of things by taking, you know, the aptitude test and moving on. And it even is true in love, you do what I say. I'll look past your flaws, I'll love you, I'll accept you, as long as you do it my way. And so we're jockeying for the power position, which is say. And so a lot of our fights in our relationship sound a lot like, oh, yeah, well, if you're going to do that, then I'm going to do this. And somebody goes, oh, if you do that, I swear I'm going to do this. Oh yeah, well, I swear. And there's going to be an end crescendo where I'm going to leave the house, I'm going to take the kids, I'm going to drain the bank account. All right? And. And it's really the same thing that's playing out between Russia and Ukraine. You know, you give me this or else I'm gonna fill in the blank. Oh yeah, well, if you do that, then I'm gonna do this. And it escalates to a point, then we're in a full on war. And it happens like that in our relationships as well. That's a microcosm of the macrocosm that plays out. And guess what? Human beings are on the stage the whole time. So manipulation is absolutely something that plays a huge role in our lives and we need to become savvy and aware of it more so catching it. So now that you see it, I hope that you start to see it right. And I hope that you can start to go, oh my gosh, I'm manipulating right now. I'm doing it. And essentially it happens anytime you feel like you need to criticize, belittle, minimize, roll your eyes. You don't have to use words that manipulate it. Kind of be this eye roll of like, oh, so we're going there.

How about show, show your partner, you show your husband and your wife a better way to do something?

Well, it depends on how you do it.

Okay.

You know, if it has to be your way, well then that's probably manipulation. If you're asking for what it is you want and there's some space and permission to choose.

Okay, well, I was just, you know, I have a much better way to wash dishes. Than you do. So I thought we might share that.

Oh, come on.

Not share it. And you sound like an annoying spouse that says, who goes and secretly unloads and reloads the dishwasher after the other partner goes to bed.

Now, I would say that's okay. I would say that's okay. Because when Tom washes the dishes, when the sink and the counter are done, because he believes in a big bowl of water, and he.

Lots of fluid. We need lots of fluid.

You know, suds.

Suds and gross.

Lots of fluid.

No water. Soap.

You know, it's true. And I go into the kitchen, and it's like an ocean has just like. Like, with rolling waves, has.

Just because we don't have a dishwasher. So, yeah, no, it's. It's. Stacy likes to pile all the stuff around me, like, give me some room. I need room. I need working area, you know?

And so rather than get into a tiff, if you're willing to do the dishes, you knock yourself out and do it however you want to, because when I do the dishes, I can do it my way. And that's true with, like, the counter and stuff, too. I always go in after he's done the dishes and dry it all up the way I like it to be, rather than try and enroll him or control him and manipulate him into doing it my way. So if. If you lovingly let your spouse load the dishwasher and then you feel the absolute urge to go in and reload it just so you feel better, I would say great. The problem is, is when we start to try and manage or control each other's, like, obsessive compulsive behaviors that just make us feel good inside, knowing that it's been done a certain way. And I think we take those things out on our partner and expect our partners to know what those are for us, and they have no clue. In fact, them. They don't get that same sense of, like, that feels so good. Instead, they go, oh, my gosh, really? This is the stupidest thing in the whole wide world. And we all have them. You know, we all have places where we want the toilet paper to roll off a certain way or, you know, certain thing that we want the soap dispenser to be just so or. Or a beautiful arrangement that goes off in the house or even doing the laundry a certain way. Like, you're kind of fussy about that, quite frankly.

You want to make sure you pull the clothes out while it's still warm, so then otherwise you're Gonna have to iron my shirts and my trousers.

No. And so let's just talk about a few stories here that we see as. Now you have an idea and a concept of what manipulation is so that you can really see it really is the number one reason that your relationship breaks down.

Well, I love what you share. Excuse me for interrupting, but I love what you share. Manipulation causes doubt. And what. What is your. What is your. Your sense, your framework? What do you share often about doubt? What is it?

It is the kryptonite of human beings. Like, if I can get you questioning how you did it or didn't do it or how you said it or didn't say it. So it can swing either way, or what you're wearing or didn't wear, or how you dress the kids, or how you parent the kids, or how you spend the money, how you park the car, how you drive from place to place. These are all things that become real sticking points in our relationships. And really, when you boil it all down, those are the things that dismantle us. Because we're insisting that instead of you allowing me the space and permission to do it in a way that works for me, you want me to do it your way. And this is where backseat driving comes from. Right. I want you to drive and use the gas pedal and the brake pedal just like I do. So when I'm sitting in the passenger side and all of a sudden I have this thing that goes off in my brain. You should be braking and you're not, I freak out.

You're a left foot breaker, by the way.

I am a left foot breaker.

And we all know, though, you're supposed to use your right foot for the gas and the brake.

Okay? But I come by that rightly. My mom taught me how to drive that way, and I felt like it was very efficient. You got two pedals, two feet.

You shouldn't be confessing this on the Internet.

I'm sorry.

I know.

No, I'm sorry. Why?

Because there's. There's.

There's police.

There's police.

It's really not how you're supposed to drive.

There's driver's edge drive like me.

Okay, so let's give some stories. Tom and I have given a few. Right. I like.

You want me to give one?

Yeah, you give one.

I talked about this with my parents a couple days ago, right before Christmas break started. My fiance offered to get us takeout for dinner because it was a really busy time, had a lot of work to do, and I was like, oh, gosh thank you so much. That's such a gift you're giving me so I don't have to cook tonight. And he was getting us takeout from the Tokyo Express place. We were getting steak teriyaki bowls. And at the last minute I was like, oh, can you please get a California rule too? And he was like, sorry, babe, I already went through the drive through. I would have to go back and turn around. Do you want me to do that? And I was like, absolutely not. No way. That would be so annoying for you to have to do that. And it took me a minute to think to myself, oh, my God, in the past, I totally would have been.

Like, yes, you go through that drive.

Through again, why wouldn't you wait for me to text you and say I was done ordering? Like, just being so mean and so unnecessary, necessarily rude. And I guess doing that power play that you were talking about. And I think a lot of times in relationships we do that without thinking because, number one, we feel really comfortable with the person. So we feel like we can say whatever is on our mind, which is not true because we end up being mean and taking things out on the person that is supposed to mean the most to us. But it just was a moment of reflection because in my first marriage, I would have really been mean and really use that moment to make my partner feel like an idiot and feel, you know, just like, why? But it, it was a big wake up call to me. It was my first instinct to not do that. It made me think, wow, I've changed.

You know, I think what ends up happening is we start to, as we break down and we get mired in the doubt and the approval seeking, we end up taking things so personal. And so it turns into, my gosh, you didn't remember my food through the drive through. You didn't remember my birthday. You didn't remember Valentine's Day. You didn't remember to pick, you know, up the request from the grocery store. Like, we start taking these as low, you don't care about me. Because there is so much breakdown that's happening. And everybody is fighting for that power position to feel validated. And that's why it becomes the race to the bottom.

In situations like this, we also don't think about the person who is out, actually. I mean, this is a very silly, simple example, but it's a real life example that happens daily. You know, we as the person sitting at home waiting for the person to bring the stuff back, we become the victim easily. You know, we're like oh, you forgot these things. You didn't. You didn't get the right one. You didn't take a minute to really listen to what I was asking for. But I feel like we kind of then totally poo poo the effort of the person who went out to do it. And if you look at it that way, they're going out and they're really doing you a favor. So why don't you first of all say thanks? And second of all, I was having this conversation with you and dad on our meeting a couple days ago saying, hey, here's a relationship tip. If something really doesn't matter and it's not going to affect, like, the outcome of your day or you don't need to really revisit this conversation and it's criticizing, then maybe don't say it.

Yeah, you know. Yeah, it's that simple. I love what you said in saying, think about the effort that's being put into accommodate a favor or request or to take care of something. You know, I think that's often diminished because we weren't the ones out there having to put in the effort and energy. And so it's easy to dismiss what that actually took. I'm thinking of a couple right now where he's at home taking care of the kids, wrangling two small children, and she comes home from work and they're dressed in these funky outfits, and she completely has a meltdown, you know, and thinks, gosh, even to the point that, you know, she started laying out outfits that he had to put on the kids instead of being able to give that autonomy to dress them however he chose to, in an effort to make it easy for himself. Right. Let the kids choose it for themselves. You know, that's okay. He's trying to give some autonomy, not only to himself, but to his kids. And then he. And then, you know, he's criticized by how they look because they're not, you know, picture book perfect. And I think those are some of the things that play out in everyday life. And so then he feels less or feels like he's not doing a good job as a father when really how the kids are dressed and what they're dressed in has nothing to do with it. Right. It's all something that, that the mom is taking exceptionally personal about how the children look, as though she's a good mom. And now he's. He's challenging that. He's thwarting that. I'll give you another one. I was just recently at the grocery store and I could hear A woman say, would you please get that for me? And you see the man. I looked up to see the man reaching on the shelf and pulling down an item that she was asking for. She was pushing the cart, and she goes, no, no, you need to use both hands. Hands. And he looks at her and kind of goes like, you know, does an eye roll. And she was like, I'm serious. You put two hands on that right now. And so he does. He puts two hands on the item that he felt perfectly confident handing, handling with one hand, just so that he could not have a fight or a production in the grocery store and places it in the cart. But come on, guys, we all know what he's thinking on the inside. We've all been in that place. We've all been in the place of trying to get somebody to do exactly what it is you want them to do and how, like, emotionally intense that can be. But we've also been the person who's had that happen to us. And really, on the inside, we're going, you know, screw you, whatever. I may go along with it, but you don't realize that that's where the rupture starts to happen in your relationship, is right there. The minute I go, you know what? Screw you, I'm pulling out emotionally. I'm withdrawing emotionally. And I don't want to hear what you have to say. No, I'm not going to share with you my feelings and my thoughts. No, I don't want to watch that movie with you. I don't want to hang out with you. No, I don't really want to help you in the kitchen. I want to get as far away from you as I possibly can. And then that same person who said, use two hands, put it in the car with two hands, I insist, goes, why do you want to be with me? Why don't you love me? Why do you want to hang out with me? And they don't have the courage to say, because you just mistreated me in the grocery store, and I'm angry about it. And then nothing gets said, Right?

And then if. If that is said to the person who was the manipulator, often the first response is defensiveness. So, sure, you defend yourself and you say why you wanted them to use two hands. And then the conversation never gets to happen because there's no emotional safety. And I also wanted to say, you guys mentioned that manipulation is the number one reason for doubt in relationships. Well, I also think it's the number one reason for resentment, for sure.

And frustration Absolutely. Because you, you see this play out in regards to you're doing everything you can to try and please your partner. And regardless of how you do it, even if you do it like they told you to do it last time, there's something you missed in the next round because remember, it can be flipped on you very easily in order to maintain that power position. And so they basically have got you by the throat. And the more I play into it, trying to keep the peace, go along with, deal with sometimes an escalating fight, the more I'm dismantling myself. And so it becomes a very much race to the bottom for both people. And the more I do it, the more they love that power position. We all do. We love to feel like we're right. I mean, tell me there isn't a human being on the planet that doesn't love to hear those words. Oh, you're right, we do. We, we love it. We get off on it. It makes us feel validated. It makes us feel like someone. See, I did know the way. I'm special. And yet we don't realize the compromise to our relationships is just that. You might get your moment in the sun, but unfortunately it doesn't last longer than I can tell, about 30 seconds. Maybe you can get 60 out of it, but then you've got this long trail of breakdown that's going to follow. And I think those are the things.

That we're not aware your partner has to be wrong. And why do we get so much joy out of having our partner have to admit that they were wrong? You know, like that's, that's if you, you, and I'm not saying I don't do this too. I get the same feeling when I get to say, tell me I was right. You know, but when you think about it, we're, you are on the same team as your partner. So why do we get so much happiness or a quick shot of adrenaline when we have to have our partner admit they were wrong?

That's kind of. You nailed it. It's that quick pop of validation that we get and we need it desperately because we don't know how to get it without the manipulation. Because we've been raised in it, our society exists on it and that's really the only way we know how to give it to ourselves is at the expense of others. But yeah, we'll take that 30 seconds.

You know, in looking at effective resolution, whether that be with, you know, husband, wife, long term partners, whether that be with neighbors, whether that be with cities Countries, an effective mediator, which you are, my love, is that's not how it rolls. Everyone is going to be acknowledged and appreciated. Here are the ground rules. If this is going to work, think about. It's the exact opposite. And everyone will cite those significant, you know, world moments or family moments or cultural, you know, I mean, isn't that interesting? But yet, you know, everyone can. I, I was, I'm old enough to remember the, the, the David Peace Accord, you know, when I forget which president was. That came to Camp David, you know, and I think it was the Middle east, you know, people that were at tremendous odds. And there were. The famous accord that was reached, you know, because there was effective mediation that took place in that environment, that manipulation wasn't going on.

Yeah, well, if manipulation is afoot, you're not going to be able to make any progress. In fact, you're going to be too busy defending yourself and gathering evidence to support your position. And that's going to be more enticing to you than actually gaining the understanding that is so absolutely necessary around your person. And I just want to point out to you, knowing what you know and having the perspective and experience that you have, that's easy for us as human beings, like that comes natural. We don't have to think a lot about that requires zero effort to put in the effort to understand a perspective that's different or behavior that's different than yours. That's where you're going to need to be able to put in some effort. It's, it doesn't come naturally or intrinsic to you, you know, and so we have a very easy time diminishing something that's really, really important to someone else. Because it's not important to me. I dismiss it. I go, eh, whatever, get over it. You know, pull your pants up, let's go.

And would you say deal? Would you say manipulation is present in most or all of the clients that, that you work with?

It's, it's, it's, it is completely rampant in human beings. Like this is a human condition that we find ourselves in. And again, we know it very well. It's really not your fault. You come by it rightly because it is what is taught. It is what is modeled, it is what's demanded. So you start to learn at the very moment where you realize you can't feel and express yourself in a way that's true and congruent to what you're feeling and experiencing on the inside. You have to think about it differently. Says mom, says teacher, says pastor, says Bishop. No, no. The way you see it is wrong. The way you feel about this is wrong. Trust me, you're going to do it my way, and then you'll finally see the light. And that's where we come up with all kinds of gender roles. You know, men do this, women do this. They're supposed to say this, play with this, dress like this. You have to be friends with this group of people because that other group of people aren't safe. There's all kinds of places where we start to kind of get challenged or internally conflicted by what it is we just want to do intrinsically with inside of ourselves, and we're told that we have to do it a different way instead. And that's about the moment we start to learn manipulation is at play, and we practice it and rehearse it, and so we're going to be masterful at that. The game is not to not manipulate. The game is to catch it and to recognize and realize, like you did, Brooke, that I don't have to do that in order to get what I need. In fact, there. There is effort. There is a gift by just being willing to show up and understand me or to contribute to the very best of your ability to be willing to do that task or chore or job, and please do it in a way that works for you, that brings you joy. And we have to let go of trying to control everything that's going on around us, because it really is to everybody's detriment. Even though you get your 30 seconds in the sun if you've been successful at manipulating. Sometimes we don't feel so good about ourselves and what we had to do or say to get that moment. And then it's kind of kicking our own fannies because I don't feel good about what I said about how I approached it, about what I did. And at the end of the day, when we put our heads on the pillow, we know what we're doing. We know what the intent was. And also, as we see our relationships unraveling, you know, that brings a tremendous amount of angst. And if that's your position right now, I want you to just take a big, deep breath and realize, is manipulation afoot? If it is, say so. You know, because, man, we go there so quickly.

Well, I was going to say, what are the specific skills and frameworks that. That we teach and mentor and coach our clients, specific to manipulation? How do you help people realize that that's not effective? And what else can they do instead?

Well, the first Thing is to ca. It and say, oh, my gosh, I'm manipulating you right now. Like, that's going to be the hardest part. Oh, my gosh, I'm trying to manipulate you right now.

Oh, boy.

And the way you do it. And I'm sorry. Let me see if I can let go of this. So, you know, as an example, you and I will be driving in the car. You know, that's a hard one for me. I like to drive. And so Tom gets behind the wheel and I. I can. Ah, ah. I get really jumpy. And so I've had to just. Hey, I'm. I'm trying to just manipulate you in the way you're driving right now. I'm just going to close my eyes and just let go. I got to practice just letting go and trusting and knowing that you have it. Because if I don't, I'm going to become more and more antsy and more and more pushy and more and more demanding. And guess what? I know where it's going to take me. It's going to take us to a fight, which is exactly what I don't want. And so the best way to remedy that is to remedy me, which is just a let go of it. And so let's talk about maybe how it could play out in your household chores, because that's a big one, too. How they do the dishes, how they take out the trash, how they dress the kids, how they park the car, how they vacuum.

Do you go crossways across the rug or you go vertical?

Jack doesn't like to vacuum anymore because I've told him too many times that he doesn't get all the pet hair off the ground.

Yes.

So I want to point out to people that if you are. If you are like this with your partner, not only are you then having to do all the housework yourself, then you're going to complain about it. I have. Why do I have to do everything in the house all by myself? Well, because you've exiled your partner from being able to help you. Because not only they don't get thanks when they help you, they get critiqued and criticized and told all the things they did wrong. I don't do this. It's kind of a joke between him and I. I will. He vacuums and helps if. If I need help, you know, so. But you get what I'm saying. And I. I also wanted to say when dad said, is manipulation a problem in all the clients that you help, I think that just shows the point I was trying to make. In the beginning, people don't even realize all the things that are manipulation. Like, that's number one, I think, is for people. Number one is that you have to realize you are manipulating because you think you're not. You think you're just talking.

Hey, we all are. We're all masters at it. And that's okay. Again, just like most advances in life, first place is the observation and recognition of it. And when we can do that, like Brooke shared in her story with her fiance, that's the. Now you have it and you see it being deployed in your own life. Wow, that's powerful. Then you can actually appreciate and experience the change within your behavior because you've recognized it. Now you're talking actualization. It's not just theory. You know, we've put that into practice. So.

Well, there's just. There's just so many little tiny micro interactions that you have with your partner every single day where you're manipulating them. And. And up until listening to this show, I bet you had no clue, because when you. I already said this, but when you say manipulation, it just seems like a big thing. It seems like a big behavior. You know, it seems like, oh, you're doing this huge ordeal of, you know, you're. You're a master manipulator and you're a narcissist and you're doing all of these things on purpose when. No, you're. You're just trying to get your way. That's manipulation.

Yeah. And I would say a really powerful place for you if you're, you know, if you're saying, okay, where could I kind of do this analysis is, you know, you just, you know, some of these, you know, examples we've. We've shared stories, we've shared. Just say, gosh, might I be showing up like that in my own life? I mean, I know I've had some huge, you know, place. Quick story, but I'll make it fast. So I. I'm also a real estate appraiser. Some of you may know that. And not too long ago, within the last year, I went into the wrong house that I was supposed to be appraising next door, and I walked into the wrong house. So Stacy knows me well. I pride myself on being quite detail oriented.

And I just need to stop you right there, because the more he prides himself on being so detail oriented, when he has a whoopsie daisy, boy, he really takes a to heart. Like, it's almost a setup.

We set ourselves up.

Oh, no, no.

Like, if you.

I never do that.

I would never. Tom Bart, professional appraiser of 25 years, would never go in the wrong house. Well, I did. Thank God story for another time. The the homeowner was very nice, incredibly well mannered, easygoing. But my point there was immediately I said, honestly, I said, gosh, where else might I be so certain in my life that that is not happening? And it is. That's what I mean there. Like, I think that's like, wow. Where I mean, I would have bet all my pennies that that would never happen. And I looked as I was on the side of inside my car, sitting there after I'd been around this man's entire house inside his garage, starting to sketch it on my iPad in my car. And I looked next door and saw the real estate sign there in that yard that had the person's talk to and realize, oh, I'm at the wrong house. So like, boom.

When I think, I think the. At the not manipulation, like just, I want to break this down as simply as I can. To not manipulate means you are giving space and permission for choice, that you're not trying to push, coerce, belittle, minimize, avoid, shut down. You're trying to say, this is what I'd like to see happen. Is this in your wheelhouse? Would you be willing to do that? Or I have the ability to let it go. And what that does is it gives you space and freedom as well, because we can manipulate the heck out of ourselves. I just want to point that out as well. I can spin on myself, doubt myself to such a degree that I am anxiety ridden. And that really is at the heart of anxiety. So I have no place to stand that I feel safe. And so I'm spinning with doubt. Did I make the right choice? Did I do it right? Did I wear the right thing? Did I say the right thing? Maybe I should go back and redo it. You know, maybe I should have been able to fix that thing in my past or what's going to happen in the future. And I'm spinning on it. And it's just because I don't have any confidence in me to do it. Okay. And well, that the intent of doing it right is good enough or the intent of doing my best is not good enough. And so we can create a tremendous amount of internal doubt ourselves about who we are, who we can be, where we can go, how it's going to play out. And that just gets us spinning as well.

I have one more thing that I kind of think sometimes our listeners and clients can get a little bit confused about. Because when you always say you need to ask your partner or teach your partner how to love you best. And I feel like sometimes that can turn into manipulation if you are not. If you're just asking, asking, asking, asking, asking, or laying out exactly what you need and you're not leaving that room that you just said for choice. I feel like there's a lot of times there's confusion, especially in our comment sections about, well, I've told my partner what I need and I told my partner exactly how to love me best, and they're still not doing it. Well, there's a difference. Maybe you could share a little bit about the difference there.

Well, the difference is that there is space for them to choose in. And if it's not happening after you've asked and you've laid it out, then the conversation would be, hey, I noticed that this isn't happening. Can you help me understand where you're coming from? You know, can you help me understand why you're not willing to do this? Because it's really important to me and it's okay if you don't. I'll be disappointed, but it's okay if you don't. I just want to understand what's emotionally motivating that, and you know, what you're going to find behind it as they feel like they have been manipulated, shut down, exiled, coerced, pushed away, only given one option.

Yeah, I was going to say many times, you'll say, if you're not able to do that, please share with me what you could do. Right.

Let me just say this. We'll do another show on no, another time, but no and yes play very much into this. Yes does not mean yes. Yes can mean three other important things. And most of us, when we get a yes, get what I call a counterfeit Yes. A counterfeit yes means I'm saying yes, but I have no intentions of doing what you've just asked me to do. I just don't want to fight. So I'm not going to tell you how I really feel about it. Right. And so I say yes to get my, my, my neck out of a sling, so to speak. But at the end of the day, whatever, right? And we are all culpable for those things. Okay. I want to just impress upon you that no doesn't mean no never. No means I'm uncomfortable with this. I don't know how. I'm emotionally struggling. I don't have the emotional capacity to give it to you right now. Means that There's a whole lot to be discovered behind the no. Why are you saying no? What's not working for you here? Because I guarantee you there's a lot to be discovered and understood behind the no. And that's the part that we never get to. Right, Yep. That's the part that never gets.

Well, that's where everything gets uncovered. And that's where I think expanding. What you started. This specific part of the conversation, Brook, was like, that's where we can teach our partner how to love us and vice versa, is through the uncovering of all those so called simple little small answers. No, the sweet spot is. And most of us have no idea to do that because once we think we get that, whatever that answer is, we're good. No, you're not. You're just starting. It's the exploration of it all.

Well, there's the other side.

Thank you. That's where we're going.

People say, well, I've told them, I've told them, I've told them, I've told them, I don't need to tell them anymore. Or I've told them, I've told them, I've told them, I told them. And they just don't listen to anything.

Or.

Or, you know, there's all of those.

And the same word we heard over and over there was told rather than explore.

Exactly. And so you've put your partner into a tiny little box of where they are able to make you happy. And the only way that they can do it is if they say yes, but you haven't given them the option to even say no. So, and then you're wondering why you have relationship problems.

Problems.

Well, because there's no room for your partner to move or breathe or do anything that is contrary to what you've. These very small places that you've allowed them to make you happy in. That's not a tr.

That's.

That's like a prison. That's not a relationship.

While relationship is a co creation and. And yahoo. For you showing up and being willing to teach your partner how to love you best. But you're negating the whole other side. The other side is they have to be willing to allow you to do that. And if they're not willing to allow you to do that, then we have to understand and explore why that's the case. And that's essentially the same as explore the. No, I can't give that to you right now. Well, tell me, help me understand why. And I'm going to guarantee that there's probably going to need to be some safety that's built up there first little by little by little so that they can start to explore and expose what it is that's driving things emotionally underneath that. No. So that we can find a place where we can move forward to a yes together.

The whole reason you came up with a concept of teaching your partner how to love you best is to improve your relationship. It's not to yell at your partner for what they haven't done, which is. I think there's been a big misunderstanding in our, some of our recent videos around this.

Well, it's really to foster a true exploration, right? Yes, yes, it's a true exploration. It's not a demand. I mean it's. And yeah, that made the good point though, Brooke. I mean, and it's, you know, Stacy's frameworks are very clear but I think like we've know this from our years being in the space. Many times they're misunderstood with a lot of, without a lot of additional clarification. And that's what Brooks really good about because Brooke does monitor all that, a lot of all of the comments and so she sees how people are maybe misunderstanding what it is you have.

I can see why you would use that as an opportunity to be like you haven't done this, you know, like you haven't done these things for 25 years. This is, I'm telling you, this is what I need. And if you just take a minute to hear what I sounded like just now, is that really a genuine invitation to, to get your partner to do these things for you or is it just you berating them for being a sucky partner? Because if that's what you're doing, then why are they going to want to do those things for you?

Well, they're not. And I think, I think there's the manipulation part that we just don't see. It's. It's not about forcing your partner to give you what it is you need. It's about an ongoing continuation of a dialogue and an exploration about where can we co create and what can I let go of so that there can be space and permission for the two of us Instead of me trying to do everything in my power to coerce you into becoming a mini me. Like that's not the name of the game, right? You don't want that because you know how you feel and how you think. Even though it would make more sense to you, you're not going to be OK with a little mini me showing up either because then you're not going to respect them, right. You're going to understand that you've had your way with them and that's not going to go well either. So as much as you think you just need to get what it is you want, that's going to break down your relationship as well. Remember, a relationship is a co creation. That means I put in my perspective and you get to put in yours. And one is not superior or inferior to the other. That it is the basically the hybrid of you and me. And that reflects that's regarding children, that's regarding laundry, vacuuming, grocery shopping, how you drive the car, how you do the dishes, all of it. And there has to be space for the other person to breathe and to exist and to show up in the relationship. Otherwise you have a one man show or a one woman show running the relationship show all together and everybody is breaking down.

Well, I would like to say, and correct me if I'm wrong, we in a kind of addition or dovetailing right off of that teaching our partner how to love us in this conversation is is our needs and wants are important, but so are our partners needs and wants and they're equally important. None of them has a superior place, right? So. And guess what? It's a constantly ever evolving set of agreements how those needs and wants are ever changing. Because that's how life is, right? So they don't. You don't make them once and say we're good. That from when you came together and got married to. I mean come on, think about all the changes. So hence your needs and wants are going to be different. And so are your agreements that honor those needs and wants.

I have two final thoughts here I want to make sure we get in this episode. The first one is that's why we say communication is for understanding. And that's a hard period. It's not for coercing, enrolling, belittling, criticizing, minimizing. Those are words for weapons. It is for understanding first yourself, because that's the easy part, and then your partner, that's the more challenging endeavor. That's going to take some effort. And if you don't know how to emotionally regulate yourself or understand and spot manipulation for what it is, it's not going to go well. Okay, Number two, we're passionate about not using labels. In this episode we used manipulation because if you understand manipulation at its core, which is the doubt inducing forms of behavior you've just talked about narcissism, gaslighting, victimhood, control, codependency, attachment disorders, all of these things that in my world, we love to label on our partners so that we can now understand them. But here's the problem with the label very quickly, you don't become Tom my lover, you become Tom the narcissist or Tom the gaslighter or Tom the victim or Tom the controller. And in that it allows me, in my own mind and in my own behavior to mistreat you just a little more. I forget I care. I forget I'm co creating with you. I forget that we're in love. And I also forget that I'm a human being and I'm a mess making machine. And so that is what I don't like about labels. Labels allows it to be a little more easy to discount you, to minimize you, to belittle you, to hurt you because you're getting it wrong. And I just feel I'm so right.

And wouldn't you also say that it's, you know, getting really powerfully hung up or powerfully focused on these labels? It also helps. It makes us, gives us the illusion, excuse me, of thinking like we're really making some headway when we're not making any headway at all.

No, I would rather you get the understanding behind the. No. And behind what? What's going on with your partner and what I call playing out in their movie than to think you've got it all figured out because you've just discovered all the signs and symptoms of narcissism. Like that's not going to take you anywhere. It's going to allow you to mistreat your partner now because you've got it all figured out and you're not going to listen to them, you're going to dismantle them, you're going to disregard them because you're right and they're wrong. Well, I can tell you just go ahead and file the divorce papers because that's not going to go well. No, it's not going to be until we can start to get behind that label to the understanding of what's actually driving that behavior, that then we can turn it around and go in a different direction. And that's a really important takeaway. Like manipulation really is at the heart of your relationship breakdown. And I hope that through our conversations and our stories today, you'll be able to, you're able to see that. And again, I just want to give us an upbeat word here as we close. It's not your fault. It really is not your fault. That is what we have all been taught and that is what we have all been forced to practice, it's what we know and it's the only way we've known how to get our needs met.

Are we going to help people practice how not to manipulate in the Better Love Club?

Yes, we are. This is going to be a huge piece that we're going to continue to dialogue about practice with different exercises and different stories. Like, if you want to get better at not doing manipulation, then you've got to come and join us inside the Better Love Club. And the doors are opening on January 16, but you can jump in early if you want to take advantage of our Founders day special for 900 bucks. And in that 900 for the year, you're also going to get a private one on one session with me as a bonus. Now, I can't do that for everybody, but I can do that for the first hundred of you that decide this is really a place that you want to be. And I'm going to encourage you to, because like it or not, we're all absolutely masterful.

And that's, that includes if there's two of you that want to join, that includes both of you. And you each have your own individual access as well. That will be both of you in that, in that single private session though, just so we are clear on that.

And if you want to see all the information about Better Love club, go to thebetterloveclub.com.

Well, that was a pretty impassioned conversation team. I think not a one of us were not passionate about that one.

It's a, it's huge. I mean, it is. Come on, it's huge. You could, we could have multiple shows on this. And guess what? We're all part of the club. But we want it to be a different club. That's why we're bringing Better Love Club into place.

And this is a final experience so that everybody knows I do it too. I AM Remembering my 22 year old son calling and telling me he was going to join the military. And I went, oh, that's a terrible idea. What would you think is good about that? You got to be crazy. You got to rethink this. Don't you know the stories about your brother? And I went, I'm doing it. I'm doing that manipulation thing. And just like I've encouraged you to do, I had to say, you know what, Xavier, I am so sorry. I am manipulating the hell out of you right now. Let me just take a breath. And now you tell me why it is you want to join the military and I'll do my best actually I.

Think even it's even better and it's what you said, please share. I tell is a strong word. Offer to share is has a much gentler when you're on the receiving side, please share with me. You know what it is you're so passionate about why you're joining. So I mean that's again, I always say think of the difference when you're invited somewhere versus when you are told you have to be somewhere. It's a very different emotional experience.

Long story short, people, it's not about not manipulating. It's about catching yourself.

And Xavier's doing wonderful by the way, just in case you're wondering.

Well, I'm sure they're worried. All right, let's turn the corner here. We need to dive into a bit little, a little bit of fun.

A little bit of fun which we also will be talking a lot about inside Better Love Club.

And today I'm calling our follow the Fun Laugh in because that was, you remember that show, was there a show?

Oh gosh, you're not that much younger than me, are you?

I guess I am.

The laugh and all that was a great, very popular show way back in the day. I, I know I look a lot younger than I really am, ladies and gentlemen, in case you're wondering how can he remember the laugh and he looks like he's 40. Well, I'm 45. Well, maybe.

Well listen, here's the thing. I ask couples every day what it is that works for them in their relationships and I often hear a very similar answer. I love their sense of humor or I love our ability to laugh together. Laughing is so good for our soul. It bonds us while releasing the feel good chemicals into our brains. It allows us to exhale or to let go of the stressors of the day. So it's been said the shortest distance between two people is laughter. And so this week I encourage you to seek it out intentionally. I want you to pull out your old DVDs or stream your favorite comedians. Some of my favorites are Gabriel Iglesias. I know, Jeff Foxworthy, you know, you're a redneck win Larry the Cable Guy, Ron White with his martini glass, you know, but there's some good oldies too. George Carlin, Andrew Dick Claw, Joan Rivers and some of the newer ones on the scene, Trevor Noah, Sarah Silverman. And how about this, how about just go to Google and say Google comedians on Netflix because there's going to be a whole slew of them that pull up and you can pull your favorites and take a couple of hours to sit down with your person, your lover, your partner, the person you're co creating life with with and have a really good laugh together. And maybe throw in a few snacks too. That's always a really great idea. Some snacks in your favorite beverage. And then after you've had a really good laugh or two with your comedians, I invite you to then put the icing on the cake by sharing some of your funnest, most memorable times where you just laughed your guts out. And I promise you what's going to happen is you're going to probably feel a bit connected. You're going to have exhaled, feel a little bit better, and you might even feel a little aroused because of all those wonderful good endorphins that have just now been released into your brain. That is what I call let the connection and the flow happen. Sometimes it just takes a little bit of laughter. So seek it out this week. I encourage you to do that sooner rather than later. Especially with the holidays now behind us. We could all use a really great belly laugh. And our song today, the can you fill it Song, where we give you the opportunity to feel like the essence of the episode through music is going to be in conjunction with this. And it's by BB Winans. And his laughter is just like taking medicine. And it's so cute. You guys have got to pull it up and listen to it because he sings a song about when you're feeling stressed out, you just take laughter as your medicine. Can you feel it going down? Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's really great. So enjoy that. And as we close up this episode, I just want to say, hey, remember to check out blc. It really is something that's been created just for you.

What is blc?

The better Love Club. And you can find information about the better love club@thebetterloveclub.com and you can jump.

Right in for our founding members annual Special. That's radar here. It's not. It's not. It's more than one day. Because Founders Day, it would be a day day. It's founding annual member special.

Thank you, honey. I appreciate that. You're so cute.

I just want you know it's more than a day. It's not forever, but it's more than a day.

The Founders Day Special. I see what you're saying.

No, not down. It's not day.

I know.

It's today and tomorrow and the next day.

Okay.

I wouldn't say freaking awesome in value. Please join us. Roll up your Sleeves entire next year with us. I'm taking over because I never get a chance to talk. Very, very rarely do I. I've got two very powerful women that I am surrounded by.

Will you tell people then what they. What happens on February 16th? So if they don't want to do January, Little cutie. Oh, sorry, did I say February? Yes, you did. Oh, my. Okay. That's okay.

See what I deal with, ladies and gentlemen, there's one radar and there's one woman who's looking at the whole world. January 16th is a Monday. Come together. We are here. We're going to be live on every Monday starting on the 16th of January at 5:30pm Pacific Standard Time.

Yeah, but you're missing the point. I wanted to say. Can I.

Can I say the other plans will be available on that day.

Holy heck.

Okay, you go ahead. You can set.

Ladies and gentlemen. That took a little bit of emotional weightlifting for me. I just need to be honest.

That's good. We were. That too. We just played it out right in real time. Right, right.

So what's the point then? They're probably gone. They're probably all lost.

The only thing available right now until January 16th is the founding annual members. Not the founding day, the founding annual members special on January 16th. We have a month to month option.

There you go.

You know, and it's 97amonth. Or if that doesn't work for you, you can pay us every two weeks for 49. Brooke. Every two weeks for 49. Yes.

Yep.

And then there's a couple other plans if you want to work with Stacy one on one in addition to the monthly every Monday night meetings. Those. Theirs are limited because Stacy only has so much time available on our calendar. And it's. It's. It's. We're not having too many openings left.

Can you condense that down into one minute? No, I'm kidding. All right, guys, we're out of here.

Oh, that was manipulation right there.

That was stressful.

Bye. Bye for now. Thanks for joining us inside the Love Shack.

Okay, everybody, time to go. We gotta close the doors to the Love Shack for this week. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. Come back next week though, and join us for another edition of Love Shack Live with Tom and Stacy Bartley.