#120: Breaking the Cycle of Chasing and Running: Emotional Safety in Relationships

This is work that only each of you can do individually. When you ask and they don't show up, and you ask again and they don't show up, you can talk about that. Address it. Hey, I'm waiting for you to show up. I'm kind of getting tired of waiting. But you can't force it. And this is a great time for the person who's chasing to get busy learning some skills and practicing some things with inside of themselves to help them manage this piece.

Hey, thanks for coming. Welcome to the Love Shack.

Welcome to the Love Shack. It's a little old place where we get to get together, explore fresh perspectives and eavesdrop on juicy conversations to discover the things that really matter in our relationships while having a little bit of fun along the way. This is episode number 120, and we're going to be diving into what does doing my part meaning in my relationship. And I want to share with you what you need to know around this topic because it's tough for us to know what's my part and what's my partner's part. So we're going to be discussing that.

Good to have you with us. This is Tom Bartley, and I have my wonderful wife Stacy, and our daughter Brooke Brown is with us as well. Glad to have you with us. And if you're new to the show, thanks for following us. We really appreciate it.

Here's the thing. Couples around the world compare notes on how much effort should one person need to put into a relationship for it to last. And you've heard probably, well, 50. You know, that's even Steven. Or what about 100? 100. And when we come to the conclusion, what does this all mean anyway? Let's say for the sake of demonstration, the three of us decide as the relationship experts that we are. Yeah, it's 100. Okay. What does that give us? Not much. A nice win in the books for maybe having a discussion that's a little rowdy and I'm right and you're wrong. It's not 50 50, it's 100.

And if it's 100, 100, it gives zero room for error. Just remember that.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. We should have chose 50. 50. I'm thinking we should have chose 50. 50.

Well, it allows for some human, some humanness.

And while we're at it, why don't we just take a pause for a moment and think about how many fights are had around the world on this conversation alone. Things are said like, I shouldn't have to do that. I did that last time or if you want me to do something, all you got to do is ask. Or are you going to just talk or just sit there or. Don't you dare treat me like that. Don't you do it. It's a common story we face as lovers around the world. We meet our special someone. We fall in love. Nothing seems to be a really big deal. Everyone is bringing all their best traits. Looking good, smelling good. And then it happens. Your first fight, you say and even do some things you thought you would never attempt in your ability or your desire to point out what's happening. To feel heard, to feel listened to. Yeah, you feel crappy once the fighting stops, usually from exhaustion, not progress. And you worry about the state of the future of this person and your relationship. And then, thank goodness, makeup happens. Makeup sex is on the back end. The worry falls away, and we make love. And the connection floods in again. And we all breathe a sigh of relief and insist we will never, ever do that again. And then we do, and it begins to happen more often. The things I say and do become more and more egregious. The makeup sucks. And the connection that used to follow starts falling off. It's not happening anymore. It becomes less and less and less as one person pulls away and the other one comes chasing. We get stuck in the cycle, literally, for years. What would your hundred percent or heck, as we said, your 50% look like now? What is realistically your part? And how do you know when you're giving it your all? And I want to dive into those three very important topics here. There's a couple of things at play here, and I'm going to point them out one by one. Number one is defensiveness. We've done a whole episode on this, but defensiveness is the first thing that goes. It's the place where I say, this isn't my fault, it's yours. I'm doing my best. It's kind of like the fart in the room. If I'm not doing it and I don't feel responsible, then it's got to be you. And that's my belief, and that's what I make up as true. So our defensiveness on both parts, whether we're trying to beg and plead to be understood, for you to understand where I'm coming from, what's happening inside of me, and. And the other person going, look, man, this is your problem. You got to figure this out. I can't do this anymore. I'm out. I can't take it. So both of Those are demonstrations of defensiveness. Regardless of what side you might find yourself currently on right now, the next thing that happens is everybody's fear and insecurities start to run amok. They get out of hand and we feel blindsided, we feel like a fool. We're also in a place where we're questioning, is it me? Is it them? Is it the relationship? Should I say this? Should I not? I mean, and everything gets really topsy turvy because fear and insecurities flash with inside of us. That's human. Like, look, there is no risky, there is not a more risky endeavor of that of getting all in in a relationship. If this thing goes south, it's going to affect my mental health, my physical health, my spiritual health, my finances, my checkbook and my physical like sanity. Like my headaches, my, my ibs, my, my anxiety, my heart race, my we. So it's, it's. I start making up a bunch of things that may or may not be true about myself. I don't know. And I'm making up a whole bunch of things about my partner. And so fear and insecurity, guess what makes us more defensive. And in our effort to manage those two things that are playing out now on steroids, I seek manipulation as the tool I know best. Not intentionally, not logically, it's just what I know best if I'm a human being. Like, it's the one skill that I can count on that all human beings have become exceptionally masterful at. So manipulation sets in. And I might use it to see how bad you want me. Do you really want me? Do you really love me? I might put a little manipulation in the mix just to give it a little litmus test, because I'm afraid that you don't. Or I might also use it to attempt or force you to do what I believe you should be doing. And I'm going to insist you stop or start doing whatever it is I think from my perspective is going to save our relationship. Now we're going to fight about that. So listen, let me ask you. Where do you end and where does your partner begin? And what is truly yours to do with your part and what is not? Do you tend to take responsibility for everyone's emotional well being in the relationship, so much so that you're not quite sure of what your own emotional baggage is? Or are you in such a place your trust has been broken and you're pulling away for solace and safety, believing it truly is your partner? Ironically, typically, the last thing we think to do is to stop the madness and reflect within ourselves. After all, this is your problem. I say to my partner, or if I do, it's all I can think about. And I'm spinning an anxiety, desperate to get the point across and to fill the connection that I once shared with you. Yes, you need to do your part and yes, let go of what the other person does or does not do. But listen, that's easier said than done. Like, how do I attempt to fix this? And I want you to know out of the gate, your win is knowing what is your part and what is not. So in case you're wondering what your part is, I thought we'd break this down into typically the two parts that play out the part of the person chasing. Come on, just listen to me. Sit down, let's talk. We can figure this out. I want you. I love you. Do you love me? I got to know if you love me. If I don't know if you love me right now, I'm going to go mad. I am going to lose my ever loving mind and the other person going, look, get back. I need some space. I need some time. You need to back the hell up. I'm not doing anything. As I say, I'm not taking this. I deserve better. This is my boundary. You can't cross it. I've already laid my boundary down here and you better honor it. I'm laughing not because it's funny and not because it isn't hard. I'm laughing because it's so common. If I can talk about it to this end °nth degree it's something I see in and out of my daily life as well as I do in my own life. You want to crack up? Know that this happens in my own relationship after watching it outplay thousands and thousands of time times. Because guess what? I'm human too. So is everybody here with me on this podcast? So let's talk about each one separately. I think we should talk about the chaser. Chaser is usually the one that shows up in our office first because they're trying to fix it, solve it, figure it out, feel misheard, judged, spinning out of control. Let's talk about the chaser first. So here's my words of wisdom to you, Chaser. I reassure and acknowledge you that you are doing all that you can and that it is good enough. It's just you don't know what to do instead. So you want the best. I know you care. That's why you're spinning out of control. I know you want this to go. That's why you're spinning out of control. I know you want to do your part. That's why you're spinning out of control. And so what I want you to know is that you need to seek the refuge of what it is you're wanting from inside of yourself. Because here's what doing your part looks like. Doing your part means. You show up, you have a conversation, you advocate for yourself, you seek to understand your partner on the other side. And then after you've made a request of what it is you think you might need for reassurance, you're going to have to let it go. And that's going to be the hard part. You're going to have to give your partner some time and space to make a choice, to choose in, to breathe. If you come at them again and again and again, you're actually continuing to create the cycle you said you wanted to break. And I know that's hard to do, easy to say, but it really is the part where you get to learn and trust yourself, Come home to a confidence and a sense of well being within you and know that that is good enough. That is your part that is doing all you can because you've said what you've needed to say, you've communicated, you've asked, you've attempted to listen to your partner. Now there has to be a time where you let it be.

The first thing comes to my mind when I hear that I'm sure others too is, you know, what about the timeline? Because my experience is most things don't happen on my timeline and I would bet and sense that people that work with us. Is this a common question? Okay, I'm following what you're doing, encouraging me to do, but it doesn't seem to be happening. And I'm thinking it should happen by now.

Well, here's the thing. This is work that only each of you can do individually. When you ask and they don't show up and you ask again and they don't show up, you can talk about that, address it, hey, I'm waiting for you to show up. I'm kind of getting tired of waiting. But you can't force it. And this is a great time for the person who's chasing to get busy learning some skills and practicing some things with inside of themselves to help them manage this piece. And yeah, the person who's pulling away, shall we say the runner, does risk by nature of their own outplay. The anxious person is going to stop coming for them. But ironically that's also the thing that's going to want to make them come close. Just ask the person who's chasing. They stop just as the avoider. Finally, about the time the chaser says, I'm done. I'm exhausted here. I can't do this anymore. Just notice that's usually when the runner goes, okay, I'll do whatever you want. I'm in. I want this to work. And they go, now you want this to work? Are you crazy right now? After everything I've attempted to do to get you to show up now, about the time I'm leaving the building, I've packed my suitcases. I'm completely emotionally exhausted. Now you want to work on our relationship.

So would that give people then the reason? Let's just cut to the chase and go right to there so we can get.

Get the.

Get what we're really after. Meaning don't you know, that's typically what happens? You know, how about if we tighten the timeline?

Well, I think the thing that we don't understand and the reason why the timeline doesn't get tightened is because we're not allowing for that space on this side. Now there's a whole other piece we haven't talked about on the other side. Okay, I'm not saying you're responsible here by any stretch. I want. I want to be really clear about that. This is not your fault. This is absolutely not your fault that you are doing what you know you need to do. There's going to be better ways for you to conduct those things I just said are your part. But please know you are not responsible for fixing this. You probably feel like you are, but you are not. And there's only what your part. The part that you can do. And I'm wanting to create some definition about what that is and where that is so that you can confidently, with a lot of ease. Well, shall I say a lot of ease, understand why it is you want to give the space because it is going to shorten it. It is. And it is going to give you a tremendous amount of clarity as well as you don't have to emotionally exhaust and deplete yourself in attempting to get what it is you want. There are better ways to go about this because if you continue to do what you're doing, you are going to prolong it. You are going to burn yourself out. And then, yes, typically and very commonly what happens is then the person shows up. So like you said, babe, just cut to the chase and let's get this. Let's get this going that is your part, and we'll talk more about this. But, Brooke, you wanted to say something?

I was going to say there's a lot of people in the comments asking, well, what if the person who's running or who in the example of the video we're kind of basing this episode off of, you say, if your partner is not showing up in the relationship or they don't have time to meet your needs, or they're not being as affectionate as they normally would, or all of these things that are kind of categorically fit under the running. The running situation. They're sort of running from the connection. A lot of the people in the comments are saying, well, if they keep doing this, that's like, what if they just do this forever? So it's kind of the same question that dad, you were asking, but it's. Yes, you know, you can continue bringing it up and saying, well, I'm trying to respect you and let you have this time to figure it out, but what if the runner is using this as an excuse? Which I think sometimes that happens.

Absolutely. Whether they're trying to figure some things out for themselves or they're trying to get out of the relationship, both are going to take you to the same place. And what you're asking me to give you is something I cannot provide, which is some kind of a secret weapon or tool that's going to make it clear for you right now about what your future is going to be. And I can't do that. I wish I could. I wish I could bottle it and package it, but it's not available. That's not how the human journey and condition works. All you can do is your part, and from there you get to make choices and decisions about what happens next based on what you feel works or does not work for you. There is no right or wrong here.

What about the intense anxiety and fear? I would say those are probably the two most common feelings that this brings about in the chaser.

Like, what.

What are we. What is the chaser supposed to do with those feelings? Because this is a really frustrating place to be in, especially if you're trying to respect the runner and not be so clingy and needy. And please reassure me every five seconds, because that's what we want to do. As an anxious person myself, that's what I want. I want to go to the person who's avoiding me and telling me, please tell me you still love me. Please tell me everything's okay. But that's not good for either person. But what can I do with those feelings that make me feel like I'm literally going to go insane?

So this is going to be your emotional push up right here. Your emotional push up is literally finding a place of reassurance and comfort with inside of yourself. And it's going to be something you practice and wrestle with, and it's going to be something that will pay you huge dividends. It's the only place, really, where we have as a human being, a place of assurance or foundation underneath ourselves. If I can come home to myself, I can make some decisions and decide how I feel or what I think, instead of worried about all the many ways I need to figure out my partner doing those things for me. So then I'll be okay. I need you to understand it's a setup for manipulation, big time. They're going to have their way with you, whether it's malicious or not, simply because you're doing everything you can possibly think of to get some sense of being okay, some sense of validation, some sense of self. And we need to teach you how to give that to yourself, right? That might be frustrating to you. I know when I was in this space myself, I used to hate the phrase just you gotta love yourself. And I think, yeah, well, thanks a lot for nothing, because I don't. Does that mean I just throw my arms up in the air and give up? So it is with all the love and kindness in my heart that I say this is the place where you need to learn to reassure and acknowledge yourself for doing all you can and that that is good enough. And then you've got to select something to occupy your mind that will support you in feeling good about who you are. Because continuing to beg and plead and beg and plead and do crazy, horrific things to get what it is you think you need in order to be okay is going to continue to escalate the fear and insecurity and anxiety that's playing inside of you. That's how it works. So I encourage you to read something uplifting or inspiring, journal, play music, visit a friend, a family member, watch something that makes you laugh. These are all great tools to help you manage the anxiety that is reeling inside of you. And that obsessive thought that you must hear something from your partner in order to be okay. This is what's causing you to ultimately feel responsible for how this plays out. And this is also what's responsible for you not feeling really good about who you are, the beautiful, incredible person that you already are. And by standing in yourself, reassuring yourself you get to experience what I'm saying as truth. As long as you're chasing, you can't have an experience of that inside of yourself as truth. So that feeling or sense of confidence, security, knowing, reassurance, validation that you seek and long for so much, I need you to understand that's within you and I need to cultivate that. You need to cultivate that. And the only way you can do that is by doing it.

So self care is really important here.

Self care is not taking care of your hair and doing your nails and buffing your skin or buying a new outfit. That is not self care. I mean, that's a great first step, but I'm talking about really doing the place of valuing yourself, exploring yourself, knowing that regardless of whether they ever come or not, you're going to be okay. Because you're going to develop that with inside of yourself, like I call it love insurance, just as a way of sharing with you. Look, however this goes, you want to be in a place where you don't. You don't flounder, you lose yourself. Because if it does go south, that's ultimately what you're afraid of, right? You're going to lose yourself. You're not going to be okay. You're not going to make it. You're not going to be able to survive. And the reason you feel that way inside is because your setup is that of if this person doesn't give me what I want, I'm not going to be okay. And you don't realize how you're creating that. You're creating that by chasing them. And so you're consistently reaffirming to yourself, you're not enough, you're not doing enough. You can't get her. Right? And that's not true. And so you've got to change around that relationship with inside of yourself.

So how do you say your clients came in and were asking you about how to navigate through this space? There was a runner and a chaser sitting in your office. And we always say, and we always think that our relationships are supposed to be a place of continual growth. But if you're in this place, it kind of feels like you're in like a timeout because the chaser has to stop chasing and the runner. We're saying it's okay for them to run for a little bit, but we're going to put a time frame on it so that they don't disappear. But, you know, to the chaser, it feels like, okay, I'm not doing my continual growing in the relationship, I'm going to be taking tests maybe, and like, trying to figure out the love language, doing all of these things to try to fix it, like I always do.

But.

But it feels like you're in a place of like, suspended reality. Because it feels like, okay, you're just like, holding. But is that right? What are you supposed to do in this place? Because you're working on yourself, but you're not really coming closer with your partner because you're giving them the space that they need, in essence. But it. It feels very unnatural because it feels like a relationship. You're supposed to keep coming together closer and closer, but in this space you're not. You're just kind of like in nowhere land. Is that right?

Well, I get where you might feel that it's a nowhere land, but it's actually you're making the journey back to yourself. You're literally letting go of the idea, the obsessive thought that you must have this person in order to be okay. And that is not true. That's not true for any human being. I get why we go there. I certainly was there. But it's time for you to develop an aspect inside of yourself where you realize you're going to be okay either way. And that is a wonderful moment. And quite frankly, you can love from a deeper place there because you know that you can get all in. Now. Chasing is just that. It's just chasing. It's exhausting. And if we don't learn to develop the confidence to get all in as you are, and to accept and appreciate that, then I'm always going to be in a situation regardless of who the person is, of chasing. I mean, just think about that for a minute. And it's not because of the person you're with. It's because of how you have it wired inside of yourself. And so when the ups and downs come, and they will in any relationship, this dynamic is going to play out. And unfortunately, this is the part that breaks my heart, is that you're going to make up a whole lot of things about yourself that simply just aren't true.

Yeah.

About why you keep finding yourself in relationships and you're chasing and doing all the work and they continually pull away. And you're not going to be able to change that cycle unless you feel, as Brooke described, suspended. It sounds like nothing's happening because you think what you need is this person to accept and love you without realizing actually you need to find a place of security and safety and reassurance with inside of Yourself, essentially give yourself what you think you need from a better person and you're going to show up differently in your relationship. And then here's the even better part. The lines between where you and your partner begin begins to be much clearer. You can see what's happening on the other side instead of freak out about what's happening on the other side. So if it's truly a person who's running out of manipulation or ill intent, they never were in the first place, you're going to be able to see that. You're not going to be able to see that until you can stop reeling and spinning yourself. Like you might fall for that many times. Just like I did over and over again, thinking, oh, this is the one. I've got it, I've got it in the bag. Look at them, look how much they love me and look how close they are. And then all of a sudden it starts to slough off, just as I described in the beginning of the, of this podcast episode. And I'm back to chasing. And so you, you're right for manipulation if you can't find a safe, secure place to stand with inside of yourself. Like, essentially, we will do anything to get the love and the validation that we want and deserve from that other person. If I believe that's how it's got to go.

Can this dynamic happen in long term marriages? Just for our listeners, I don't want them to think that we're only talking about people who are just dating or in, are in short term relationships. This dynamic can happen in any relationship, right?

Oh, yeah. And the couples that come to us that have been together 20, 30, 40 years, this dynamic has been playing out for years. Yeah. Again and again. So if you think you're exhausted and a new timer in a relationship, think about being in this dynamic for decades. Yeah. Because this is commonly what happens. And everybody hangs in there because they care, they want it to go well without realizing who needs to break the cycle is everybody. Not one person. Everybody's convinced it's the other side of the equation that needs to change the dynamic. No, everybody, everybody, everybody plays their part.

Yeah, it's really a case of we've got to change the parameters of what we're looking for to know that progress is being made. And that's really, again, simple enough in a logical conversation as we're having now, much different when we're a hot mess.

You know, and remember when the emotions are flying, this is why it takes practice, is it moves very fast. So I'm just going to go over this again, Your part is showing up to have a conversation, listening, speaking up. Not in an attempt to shut the conversation down, but to ask for what it is you need in order to hear and understand your partner and their perspective. And then you need to be able to ask for what it is you need and want and share your perspective. And then you're going to need to let it go. Essentially allow them the time and space to feel the way they feel and see it the way they see it and allow yourself to do the same. This is your part, the other part that you want them to do, that's work only they can do. That's a part that only they can play. You can exhaust yourself trying and you can do some really crazy just kinds of things, both in word and indeed in your attempt to get it. But just understand that's going to continually, continually break down the relationship further and further and further.

Instead of giving you what you're trying to accomplish, it's going to do the exact opposite of what you're trying to do.

Yes.

That reminds me of a question we had a couple of weeks ago where a girl wrote in saying, my obsessive thoughts are causing me to ruin my relationship. And I feel like that's exactly the picture of what that creates. And I've done that myself too in other relationships. I know exactly how that feels. And it's just because we don't know what else to do. But that list of what is your part and what is not illustrates exactly.

What you should do. Yes. And me too. I've been there and done and done this too.

I mean, and don't misunderstand us if you're listening and thinking, yeah, that's. But it really is not cliche. I was just speaking to someone on a clarity call. I says, you know what? After you take on what I'm suggesting, there, there is the component of trusting the process.

Yeah.

That's not cliche. That's real wisdom. And it's not easy. We don't talk about that part of the journey. You have to. And then do things. I said, do things that nourish you, that feed you. If you enjoy the outdoor, whatever that is, do more of that.

Well, and I just want to add here before we switch to the runner, by no means do I also want the anxious chaser person to feel like we're picking on them. That's not what this about. We are going to talk about the runner, because that's no picnic either, just so you know. And they have work and contribution into this as well. But let me just say this. Changing our behavior is the most courageous work we will ever do as a human being. And attempting to save the relationship will bring about a moment of choice for everyone. This is a good thing, as the intensity of emotional pain will bring us to choices and a willingness to do things we wouldn't do otherwise. Okay? So let them wrestle with this. Let the runner wrestle with this. You don't have to fix it as you wrestle with your piece too. Okay. It's important that we understand that's a good thing because this is how we're going to expand ourselves as a human being and become who it is we truly have the capacity to be, and that's why so few of us do it. So we'll play the same old cycle out again and again, decade after decade, because what's really required is for me to change my behavior, to do an inventory of myself, of where I need to grow, understand and learn, and then practice and develop the capability to do that. And then what you want is there. It's possible. It's just we don't talk about it like this in terms of creating a healthy relationship. We talk about it in all these nebulous terms. And then we love to compare who's right and who's wrong. Like who's off base here? Is it me? Is it them trying to figure out how it is we go forward? So it's important that you realize there is a dynamic that everybody contributes into here and that the goal, that net goal of truly changing this is changing our behavior. And that's work only we can do as individuals. Right. But being in a highly intense emotional place will be the catalyst that will finally get us to go, all right, I'm in. I'll do it. Okay. I'll do it. Fine. I'll do it.

And if you're simple minded like me, I always like to remind myself and others, behavior is kind of a fancy word. I like to say it's just acting differently that really in layman's terms. And you're acting in a much more powerful manner for with yourself and others around you, you just act different, you act better. You raise your dang game. You know, that's really how I like to say it.

Yeah. And as Brookie said, there is a moment of suspension. There is a moment that you think you know what's best from your past and you're going to focus on doing your part instead and what's possible and what each of you are willing and capable of. Doing in this place. And your relationship will absolutely be made clear. But you can't get there if you're reeling because you're going to miss it. And then you're right for manipulation. You want to talk about being led down a journey, oh, baby boy, have I got stories for you. And you're not going to stop it, because you're going to be led by this idea that eventually you're going to get this validation and love and acceptance that you so feel like you need. And it's a setup. It's an absolute setup. Now, the runner is not doing this probably any more intentionally than you are. It just happens to be a wonderful dynamic that we fall into as a human being. So, yeah, you're going to have to allow some space for the person to accept your request. You now know you are doing an emotional pushup instead of waiting for his or her answer. And turn your movie off. Like that perspective, that panic inside of yourself to the very best of your ability, because that's just going to kick your fanny. And that's where you need to get busy. Feeling good, doing some things that are going to shut that down, reassure you that you're doing the right thing. Listen to my voice. Maybe listen to this podcast several times. Get into the Better Love Club, because there's a lot of support and a whole community of people who relate to what it is you're going through. And we cheer each other on there. We really do. That's where you come when you don't know what else to do. And whereas meditations in there, and there's a community in there and conversations and help and a support line so that as you're thinking, no, I just got to ask them one more time. I swear it'll be okay. Maybe they'll give it to me this time. No, actually, you're repeating the cycle. And every time we do that, it's going to take a little bit longer. It's not right, it's not wrong, it's not good, it's not bad. It's just something that we want to help you practice and get better at. Okay, so let's change to the other conversation for a moment, and then we'll wrap this up and I'll give you some super tips for both sides at the end. Let's talk about the runner. So here's the runner's perspective. Commonly, they feel like they've taken it and taken it for far too long, and they're probably thinking they need to pay the person that's coming at Them, criticizing them, telling them what they do, how they get it wrong, what they need to say, begging and pleading and begging and pleading. They feel like maybe they need to pay for their terrible actions, too, and words. And they're all over the place. And I get it. Pushing away logically seems like you can accomplish both. I can get solace for myself and I can stop out of this, get out of this constant berating that's happening for my love, my time, my affection, and all the things that I'm doing wrong or all the things that I need to start getting right. And I'm. I'm exhausted from that. I don't know how to cope in that. And I obviously feel like I try, but no to no avail. This is a story that I think we shared a couple of podcasts ago, and I think it just highlights so eloquently what a runner really feels is, though they bring this gift to extend an olive branch like you've told me you want, right? And I extend this gift and I give it to you. And then I hear, but I'm still mad. I still need this certain thing for you. You're still not getting it right. And that's about the time they go, if I can't get this part right, this little gesture here, I give up. And so very much a runner is in a place of giving up, throwing their hands in the air. They feel like inside of themselves. They tried many, many, many times to meet your needs, to hear, to understand, to listen, and it didn't go well. Now, that doesn't mean they knew how to do those things I just mentioned. They feel like inside of themselves, they've given it a good run, but they have their own fears and insecurities running, too. And so they're acquiescing to this default option, or what I call an emotional survival skill, just as you are, that says, okay, I've given enough. I've done enough. I'm done. I'm out. I deserve a break. I deserve credit. This isn't working for me. I don't know how to navigate through this, okay? So they push away, and there's a place where they can't get it right. I can't. Please. I can't speak up. I can't say the right thing. I'm never there enough. I can't say it enough. I can't do it enough. I can't express it enough. So realize every time you come at them, that goes off inside of their head. So when you say, please, just love me and reassure Me one more time, they go, I've already done that. How come this isn't changing? I've already given you that. Does that mean I didn't do it right? Does that mean I'm not enough? Does that mean I always need to do more and more and more and more? Is it ever going to be enough for you? And that's what's going off in their panic mode and their fear and their insecurity. And that can quickly, just like it does on the other side, turn into, maybe I'm not enough. Maybe I don't want have what it takes to please this person. Maybe that's the problem. Because obviously I can't give them emotionally, mentally, physically, you know, sexually what they want or what they say they need. And I try, and they're still coming at me for more. So maybe it's me. Maybe it's me. And that's how it begins to feel. And that's why they want to run. They don't know what else to do. So there's going to become a point where if we continue to pursue them, they're going to tap out. Just as when you get ready to say, I'm done, and you tap out, they all of a sudden want to show up. Okay, okay, I'm in. Let me try one more time. Because the reality is nobody wants to lose anybody. Nobody wants to lose anybody.

Would you say the runner typically has a harder time expressing their emotions and how they feel?

Yes. Yes. So here's the runners, here's the runner's part. You're gonna have to show up and have a conversation. You're gonna have to listen. You're going to have to speak up. Not an attempt to shut the conversation down, but to ask for what you need and want and share your perspective. You're going to need to seek to understand your person's movie, their perspective, what's going on inside of them. Ask questions. Essentially, you're going to need to allow them to time, space, and permission to feel the way they feel and see it the way they see it as you allow yourself to do the same. Now, in case you didn't catch that, I just said the same thing I said to the anxious chaser person. It applies to the runner, too. And I would say the same thing to the runner. You running is going to keep the cycle going, because the more you run, the more somebody chases and the more somebody chases, the more you run. I want to point out here, in turning this around, everyone is doing what I call an emotional push up the Runner works to strengthen their ability to stick around and say what they need to say in a way it can be heard. And the chaser works to strengthen their ability to slow down, drop the explaining and say what they need to say succinctly, clearly and without malice. It's not easy for either person. It's just worth it. Otherwise, you set yourselves up for a whole lot of pain and a power struggle that will create regrets. You need to both steady yourselves and reassure yourselves that you are doing your part and that your part is enough. It's good enough. If a runner shows up, asks for what he needs, expresses his emotions in a non malice way, not behaving in such a way that he's going to feel terrible, he or she's going to feel terrible about it on the backside, call that a win. And I would say the same thing to the anxious person when you show up. Share. Say what you need to say, ask for what you want, and you do it in a way that you feel good about. That's your win. That's the win on both sides. Because here's the thing, if you do and say things that you don't feel good about on the backside, you've just created a nightmare for yourself. You're going to feel terrible about yourself, which is going to perpetuate whatever cycle you find yourself in. It's kind of like the more I do and say things that I wouldn't say to the person I hated most on the planet, to my lover, the more I'm going to perpetuate the cycle, the more insecure I'm going to feel or the more anxious I feel or the more I want to run. And that's just how it works. That's the rules of the game. So your opportunity here is to simply behave in a way you feel good about with inside of yourself. That's you getting yourself to the table. That's where you end and someone else begins. And understand your partner is going to have to do the same and meet you on the other side. Now we can go places. Now we can accomplish something.

Yeah. And what you just described correctly, if I'm wrong, is in these. This is one of the two attributes that we say has to be in every relationship is you're recreating a much higher level of emotional safety. Right?

Yes.

I mean by just doing, following the recipe you gave, which is interesting, it's the exact, more or less the same recipe for both the anxious and the chaser. When you show up in those ways, you're going to Reestablish some emotional safety, which is probably not there now. And this is why this cycle continues to repeat itself.

Absolutely.

So you can, hopefully you can see how powerful you say you have got to. And yes, it requires emotional push ups to reestablish emotional safety. It does. Otherwise you already have it.

Yes. So remember, you can't force anybody to do what it is you think they should or shouldn't be doing. All you can do is invite them to the table. Okay. As you get yourself there. Because that's what's going to be required to change the direction of where you're at anyway. Okay. It's work only you can do. I can invite, I can inspire, I can encourage. But at the end of the day, I just got to worry about getting myself there and then my partner needs to worry about getting themselves there. And I just want to say this is exactly why we set up the Better Love Club. Like the Better Love Club was designed for this dynamic because it is so very common in most relationships where the anxious person, the chaser can come in. They're probably going to be the first in, they're going to sign up, they're going to start working, they're going to start learning. Yeah, you need to learn things like defensiveness, manipulation, control and collapse. How to plant your flag, how to communicate effectively in a way that it can be heard. Those are all things that you're going to learn and practice inside of there. And that will be the place that becomes essentially their lifeline so that they can stop the pursuit, the chasing, the escalation of things. And then the reluctant runner is going to start to see things change and they start getting interested and they start getting hopeful and they start asking a lot of questions and then they follow suit. They want to jump in and they want to learn too. Because in most relationships, not all, but most, just like anything else, you know, the percentage of people who manipulate and want to take advantage of you and don't want this to go well. It is such a small, small, small percentage. Most couples really are all in. They want this to go well. They're doing everything they can possibly think of and know to do so to no avail. And everybody is frustrated and brokenhearted and what we call a hot mess. One is not superior, inferior to the other. It's just two different ways of coping. And so then the runner can finally feel like they have the space and the effort and the energy to jump in and do that. Now the runner can typically jump in because I don't want the chaser to feel like this is their responsibility. Yet again, you're not coming in to save them, you're coming in to save yourself. Yeah.

And it's really, I really want to emphasize again, as a family and a body of work, this is really one of the main drivers why we created the Better Love Club and the way that we created it. Because in all of our 10 years now of doing this, I would say 80% easily of people that come to us and start working with us, even when they're coupled, even when they're partnered, even when they're married, it's one individual. Why is that? Well, it's because it's how it usually works. I always say on our calls, my clarity calls. It's pretty rare where two people in a relationship simultaneously raise their hand and say, we need to go get help. And then what happens is because one is waiting and one is not, guess what? No one gets help.

Yeah.

And that just makes people really aggravated and nothing changes.

And everybody breaks down in the process. You don't just wait. You want to talk about suspension, that is not suspension. Waiting just means we're going to sit by and we're going to let this thing degrade a little further before somebody somewhere starts getting the help and support that they need.

So if you're the anxious one and you really want to get started, then take all that energy and step into the Better Love Club. And we understand and we're all about that. We're going to also help and teach you how to, maybe not maybe how to have new conversations in a much more invitational manner versus a much more confrontational manner, to invite your more reluctant partner, husband, wife, special person to also join us. But he or she can just kind of step back and be in the background, so to speak, and you can be more out in the front. And it's a win win for everybody here.

I'm going to say this again as we wrap up this conversation. You need to feel good about what you're doing with inside of yourself. This is your win as you realize and understand that your part is showing up for the conversation, listening, sharing what you need, asking for what you want, understanding your partner's different perspective. Give yourself the space and permission to be where you are and allow your partner to do the same. That is your part and that's all you need to do. If you're doing those things to the very best of your ability, that's the best you can go. And if you find that's not taking you where you need to go, then by all means. That's a great red flag and sign that you need to get some help and support in regards to proving your ability to do those things. When you think about human relations, we're kind of at the ceiling or at the bottom, however you want to look at it. There is nothing else to be done if we can do those things. Share yourself. Ask for what you want. Listen to your partner. Understand to the very best of your ability where they're coming from. Allow them to ask you for what they need. Negotiate about how we can make it happen like there's nothing else to be done. So why that seems so simple when I say it, but so difficult to do is because of the defensiveness, the fears and insecurities, the manipulations, the lack of understanding of skills, the lack of understanding and modeling that we had growing up and the idea that we carry inside of our ourselves most times faulty about what a relationship really is and how they're supposed to work. Those are the things that get in the way. And so then the push, pull begins. We start blaming each other. We've got that fart going on in the room again. If it's not me, and I feel like I'm doing everything I know how to do, it must be you. So the runners blame the chasers, and the chasers blame the runners without realizing everybody has their part to play.

How about for your. If you're listening out there and you're saying, okay, how many rounds am I looking at? What do we say about how many times should I.

Many rounds does it take as many rounds as you personally want to take? And that's going to be different for all of us. Like the time frames that we try and equate, kind of. Let's go back to the 50, 50, hundred, right? These parameters that we try and put on relationships, they really don't take us very far.

You don't open the book and you go to page 122 and there it.

Is, and you go, okay, let's see. This is round three.

It's 2.5 rounds.

Round five. This should be working by now.

Right now, we've had people say, is it okay if I want to go for another round? Absolutely. This is okay. You want to go as many rounds as you want to go, only you.

Are going to just every round. The goal is we want to get better, not just go rounds for the sake of rounds.

Not the same thing. You want to be able to use, be able to turn and take what worked, figure out what didn't work, create A new version of the next round. Yeah. And just keep going. Again, this is a long play. It's absolutely a long play. So if you need some help and support in this, please reach out. Don't stay here. I think where a lot of the frustration and just like you reach your limit is because we stay in this place because we're not clear. That's why we call our. I always remind people when we get on a clarity call, the reason and the intention of the call and the name of the call is very specific. Because when we get clear, we can make a decision. It's when we're indecisive, we can't make a decision.

Very true.

And being able to make a decision as a superpower.

Anything else you want to say? Any final thoughts?

No. It's a big one.

It is a big one. It is a big one. And again, you can only do your part, and your partner is going to have to do their part, regardless of how much you care, how meant to be it is, how much you love them. This. This is a place where we've kind of got to go, okay, what's my part? Let me focus on doing that and then trust and know that if this is meant to be, my partner will show up and do theirs. And oft times in that dynamic changing, everybody shows up. Everybody shows up differently. So let's. Let's turn the corner and have a little bit of fun, shall we, as we kind of let this settle in, maybe take a break, pause the button for a minute, go get yourself a glass of water, and kind of let the settle in. I know we've thrown a lot at you, and we really are going to show you that you can make a hard left or right. And we're going to. We're going to talk about having a little bit of fun. And I wanted to create this around our conversation today. And so I've titled this piece of Follow the Fun. Can we listen? Because you know what? Listening is really the hard part. Trying to understand something that doesn't make any sense to us, that's coming from our partners is the hard part. That's where the work is. And I have a tendency, if I don't understand where you're coming from, because it makes no sense to me to shut it down, dismiss it, negate it, say, oh, you'll be fine. Don't worry about that. But literally, the practice of listening is. Needs to be developed here. So I thought maybe it would be fun for us to create a little fun around it. It's been said that true listening is love in action.

I like that.

I know. I thought that. I just. That always resonates with me when I read that quote as well. True listening is love in action. And yet most lovers struggle mightily with us. It's important to know true listening can only occur when a couple of things has happened. Time is set aside and the environment is that I can focus on you. We often think that listening can happen any old time, in any old place, for any old reason. And that's not the true at all. That actually, if we want to really get better at listening, we have to set the stage and create the conditions with which to practice. And as unromantic as that sounds, I tell you what, it makes all the difference in the world. So I'm going to ask you to set aside some time to just practice listening to your partner. No distractions. Sit together in nature or sit together on the couch. It doesn't matter. Pour yourself your favorite beverage. Slow down. Most of us are spinning way too fast to have a conversation and listen. We have too many things like shuffling through our minds, and it's difficult for us to be present with ourselves, let alone to our partner who's now going to share something that I have to literally take energy and effort to understand because it's coming from with outside of me, not from within me. That's effort. So slow your beverage or pour your beverage, slow down, breathe, and from here, ask a sincere question and then listen. Because listening, it's the greatest compliment you can ever give your partner. And if you need some help with questions to ask in these moments, well, great news for you. This is where we developed our conversation cards for connection. Don't worry about that because oftentimes that spins us up. So now we're still not listening. So just draw a card.

Where do you get those?

You can get those on our website@staceybartly.com and I. You know what?

This is not being cheesy, but I swear the thing that can take me really to a place of clarity on to be present is think about what's the other, the synonym of being present. Meaning what is a present? The physical version of a present? What? How is it usually given to you? Is it nicely wrapped? I mean it really. It's a gift. And there is no finer gift. I guarantee all of us are drawn to people in our lives. Hopefully we have one or more of those in our lives. Of people in our lives that are really good listeners. Yes. Why? Because we don't encounter them very Often, yeah.

This is a wonderful skill for you to develop, and you can do it in a fun way.

Did you say I'm a good listener?

I was, yeah. Especially when I say the words to you, honey, I just need you to listen to me. I just need you to hear me. And then it's like there's this whole change. It's kind of like we understand what. How important that is. I know you do the same to me. Honey, I just need you to stop and listen to me for a minute.

And you can preface it that way. Just share that. I mean, we, Stacy and I have. I can remember early on in our thing, we would say in the spirit of full disclosure, so use little phrases.

Gonna share that.

Use little phrases that you and your partner will quickly identify with. And then that sets the place to wait. Okay, It's a. It's a reset said. Look, I really. I need your attention now, please.

Wow. And after all these that we're talking about, these examples of sharing and listening, they're going to take you to questions that maybe turn into, do you mind if I kiss the back of your neck? Mind if I touch you right here? Mind if I take you home and make love to you tonight? See, I want you to know listening can be really fun. Okay, so ask your questions. You need help with that? Get your cards. But ask a sincere question and then truly listen. Don't pre can your response. Don't think you know the answer. Truly listen and see where it takes you.

And I just. Let me add, myself included, since we're in the most challenging time that any of us have ever lived to be fully present. And we all know we can be nodding our head and we're not there. I mean, come on, you can be nodding your head and all of a sudden, I even share this. Babe.

Sorry.

I'm really sorry. I didn't catch anything. What you just said. I've just come clean. I didn't catch any of what you just said. Could you please repeat that? Because I was nodding my head, but I was like many miles away somewhere else. So come clean. And it's a great practice or great skill set to practice. And leave your electronic device, at least turn it upside down so you don't see things that are. Are going to tempt you to not be present.

Put them in a drawer in the cupboard somewhere if you need to. Well, that leads effortlessly into our. Can you feel it?

Have no idea what the song is? Usually I might hear it playing in the other room. I didn't hear anything going Usually there's a number of test runs before Stacy lands on one. I didn't hear anything today.

Oh, good. Well, this is a really wonderful one. Christina Perry. She has a song called Human, and I love the word. She basically says, look, I can be a machine. I can pretend like I'm okay when I'm not. I can show up and do all these things that you've asked me to do. But guess what? At the end of the day, I'm human. And I'm in a breakdown because I'm not a machine. And I can only do this for so long. So let's stop the pretending. Let's learn and understand what your part really is. Let's gain some skills, like listening. And these are the things that are going to take you in the direction that you ultimately want to go. I hope that this podcast episode gives you comfort. I hope it gives you hope. I hope that it helps you understand that there is a way through these dynamics in relationships. And if you need help and support, we are here to do just that. Any questions you can schedule a clarity call to explore what might be possible. Jump into the Better Love Club. Check it out. There are lots of resources here and support for you, regardless of whether you're that chaser or runner. Both of you are. No. Are wanting things to go better, and we're here to help you do just that. Well, that's a wrap. Another one on the books. Thank you so much to you for being here with us and spending your time with us inside of the Love Shack today. And, gosh, if you have a conversation that you would like to have us have. Did I say that right?

No.

A conversation that you would like us to have.

There we go.

I said has us have. I'm not even quite sure how I did that.

That's all right.

Anyway, sincerely, if you have a conversation that you would like us to have here on the show or something that's playing out in your life or the people around you, don't hesitate to reach out to us and let us know, because we're dedicated to talking about the things that you want to talk about most. It's been a pleasure to be here with you.

Okay, everybody, time to go. We got to close the doors to the Love Shack for this week. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. Come back next week, though, and join us for another edition of Love Shack Live with Tom and Stacy Bartley.