#126: Removing the Shame: Let's Talk Openly About Mental Health in Relationships

My whole platform is connection, because connection creates hope. Hope is a weapon. Hope is munition. Hope is ordinance. It's not just this cuddly thing. Hope is a tangible weapon against the monster of suicide, because hope saves lives.

Hey, thanks for coming. Welcome to the Love Shack.

Love Shack.

Hey, welcome to the Love Shack. It's a little old place where we get to get explore fresh perspectives, eavesdrop on juicy conversations, and uncover the things that really matter while having a little bit of fun along the way. We have a special surprise for you today. It's for May Mental Health Awareness Month, and we have a special guest with us, David Woods Bartley, who also happens to be a family member. And we are bringing him on as a family member. But his expertise in this area is profound. So I don't want you to think, oh, it's their family member. Okay, well, see what he has to say. No, this. This guy's got some credentials, and we are lucky and blessed to have him here with us inside of the Love Shack.

We're Tom and Stacy Bartley. So, yes, it is. We do share the same last name as our guest, and we also have our daughter along with us as well.

Who is Brooke Brown.

So we have four family members on the podcast today.

Yes.

How fun is that?

It is. It's incredible. It's always a get to for us, man. You should see our family dinners. They're bomb. Anyway, that's a conversation for another time. Mental health awareness. It's a month that's been set aside at the United States to observe mental health, create awareness, help people, gain resources and access to the resources that are available, as well as to remove the stigma that is often a part of feeling like you have some kind of a mental health illness or crisis emerging in your life and the world of ours, which is relational, um, it affects many, many homes and many, many households. And we want to provide you with some resources, some comfort, some new ways to think about these things, and to do our best to be a voice that it's okay to struggle where you are, and it's also okay to move through it and to know how to do that in support of yourselves and in support of the people that you love, is something that's at the very heart of what it is we do. And so I created this conversation for you in honor of Mental Health Awareness Month to do just those things. Mental health awareness is a perfect opportunity for us to shine a spotlight on spreading helpful mental health resources, information and content in an attempt to do that removing of stigma to create support for both those who suffer and their families and provide resources that are available and need to be made available to us all. Let's start this conversation with some sobering stats and then I'm going to introduce our incredible guest. 1 in 5 US adults experience a mental health condition every year.

Wow.

So one in five, that means it's probably going to happen somewhere in your sphere of influence if it hasn't already. The suicide rate has increased 35%. I'm going to say it's probably more according to what I see. But let's go with the stats that are out there. 35% increase since 1999. An estimated 48 million people struggle with anxiety and I would add, and is rising every day, especially for our young people. Which brings me to 17% of ages of our youth ages 6 to 17 experience a mental health condition. And here's the kicker. The average delay between onset of a mental health illness or challenge and symptoms is typically 11 years. Like that is so long to be struggling with some kind of a mental health challenge, regardless of what it might be and feel like you don't understand it, you don't have resources, you don't know what to do about it. 11 years is a long time and so we want to shorten that. We want to make it safe. We want to provide you resources and comfort just by simply having the conversation. As one step. Our guest is going to share his story, which is another step and to let you know that it's normal for all of us at point, some some point in time in our lifespan to struggle with some sort of a mental health crisis or breakdown. Like that's very human of us. So enough about the stats. Let's turn the focus into our incredible guests that we are so lucky and privileged to have is not only here in the love shack with us, but as a part of our beautiful family. David Woods Bartley. And he has seen his fair share of successes and setbacks in his own life. From directing a nationally recognized nonprofit to battling the long term effects of childhood sexual trau. And the throw off of that debilitating depression comes to a climax where several years ago he attempted suicide. Thanks to the support of many people and being shown the necessity of putting one self care on a pedestal, David continues the essential yet challenging journey from the isolation of mental health to the inclusive space of mental wellness. David is now committed to moving that conversation about suicide along with male sexual trauma and mental illness from the dark shadows where they live to the forefront of public concern and awareness. And in doing so, his mission is to shine a bright light on the crisis we now face and open doors to the possibility of mental health is available to everyone and everywhere. Currently, David is a member of the national alliance of Mental Illness, the International association for Youth Mental Health, the national storytelling network where he heals stories through animal stories and his personal stories. He's a phenomenal storyteller. In addition, David holds certifications in many aspects of mental health, that being first aid for adults and youth, Safe Talk, which is suicide awareness for everyone, and the suicide prevention technique known as qpr. Question, persuade and refer. In addition to giving yes to TED Talks, he's a TED Talk extraordinaire and being named a 2021 ment championed by the prestigious Steinberg Institute. David has presented more than 600 times. Actually, that's a low number. We haven't added the recent stats to that. People, come on, we got to get this. 600 is a low bar. He's probably three times that in the last year. And he speaks to audiences across the United States, Canada, Central America, India, giving in person and virtual presentations on the subjects of suicide, male sexual trauma, mental health, organizational culture and servant leadership, which Woody is the epitome of. David has been invited also to prevent organizations such as the United States army, the United States Coast Guard, the Food and Drug Administration, osha, India, Sutter Health, the California Highway Patrol, countless universities and schools, along with a wide range of faith based organizations. And so as you can probably guess, he doesn't sleep much right now and he's on the road a lot. We as his family members, love and miss him a lot. David, welcome to the love shack. It is so great for you to take a few minutes to be here with us and share some of your wisdom in this incredible arena that you are so well versed in. Thanks, my brother.

No, well, thank you. And one, I would say to everybody that, you know, there's not many families that have the close and deep connection that our family does. Not just the four of us here, but the extended family. And so part of what I do and part of what we say every time we get together, that our responsibility is to take how we are fed the experience of how we are nourished in our family and then take it out to the world. So I would say one, of course, each of you I love immeasurably and immensely. And how you feed me enables me on my best days to give something of value, something that can nourish, ideally somebody's soul in the work that I feel unbelievably privileged to do.

And I would say that goes both ways. Us too. Our family nurtures us in such a way where we realize learn every single day about relationships. And that empowers us to be able to give back to our listeners and our community and the clients that we're privileged and honored to serve. And I love when we get to come together and we get to tag team these conversations. We do our parts in dancing with this conversation around mental health. And it's a part of the work and the world that we both live in passionately. We all live in passionately each and every day. So I thought it might be helpful for people to understand that, yes, amongst all of that wonderful family that we have, that that necessarily prevent any of us from having some kind of a mental health struggle, that actually love or having a close family doesn't prevent these things from occurring. I think that's sometimes a misnomer and a myth in the space. You know, if I love them enough, if I can give enough, if I am enough, if I do enough, then we can avert some of these challenges that we face mentally and emotionally. And I just want you to know that's just not true, that we all have our own journey. And so I would love for you to tell a little bit about your story here and then we can kind of ask some questions and do some shares about that.

Sure. No. And as you three know, but I would share with everybody else. So on August 31, 2011, I attempted to kill myself. And as I like to say, on that day, the three headed monster of trauma, of depression and of suicidal ideation convinced me of two sets of things. Things that nobody said, things that were not empirically true. But it's what I believe, that I was worthless, useless, stupid, pitiful, grotesque, ugly, an embarrassment and a burden. And if that wasn't enough, just the weight of that unseen, but me carrying that was that I believed that if I killed myself, everybody would be better. Now, I have no credentials, I have certifications, but there are no initials past my name. And what I tell people at the beginning of my talks is I'm not here to convince anybody of anything. I'm not here to try to dissuade you if you believe that suicide is selfish or if you believe that people who kill themselves are taking the easy way out. Like I honor that. What I'm trying to do is to give people a different perspective. And so when I offer, what I offer is these are my opinions. And with that said, I believe at the core, the foundation that suicide exists is one thing and it's belief that the person who's there with a gun against their head, a noose around their neck, in my case, standing on a 730 foot tall bridge, just about to leave those. Each of us is there because of a belief. There are people who believe they are called flat earthers, that the world is flat. There are people who believe that 911 was a staged event. There are people who believe that Sandy Hook, the nightmare in the elementary school when a monster came and killed children, that the children and the parents were actors. And of course I don't believe any of that. Those people are idiots in my mind. But I use those stories to just. That's how powerful belief is. And the people who are in the place of attempting or completing suicide, that's how powerful it is, that it makes no sense what I tell people. I think part of the challenge is we think this is an intellectual malady and has nothing to do with intellect. That what takes a person's trigger finger and pulls the trigger are feelings. Really the path to suicide is very simple. Something bad happens, like you said, something bad happens, whatever it is. And we have this reluctance, reticence, often inability to share. So now it remains in there and it becomes tight, it grows roots. So that spawns a pattern of thought. People say that people kill themselves because of how they think. No, that's not right. The pattern of thought based on this bad thing is any pattern of thought is how we establish a belief. You just hold a pattern of thought for whatever period of time that's the foundation of a belief. You don't need any external input. You can pick and choose. So bad thing, let's call it trauma. But I want to give you a different perspective on trauma. Bad thing, pattern of thought, firm belief. I had 48 years of firm belief. And then this belief spawns the emotion. We don't do anything without a corresponding feeling. There's nothing that we do that doesn't have a feeling. So the person, this finger moves this way because of how people feel. So this is not a malady of intellect, it's a malady of feeling. So on this day, I believe these things made my way to the center point of this, the fourth tallest bridge in the United States. But instead of going down, first responder created connection. My whole platform is connection because connection creates hope. Hope is a weapon. Hope is munition. Hope is ordinance. It's not just this cuddly thing. Hope is a tangible weapon against the monster. Of suicide. Because hope saves lives. In the moment any of us feel hopeful in any circumstance that we're facing in the moment of feeling hopeful, at a minimum, we're going to pause and for somebody like me, a line of disruptive thoughts in the moment of connection. Connection being the experience when two people feel seen, heard and valued in that moment, that has to at least pause that line of thoughts in that moment, it robs the monster of oxygen. Now, it may not be in perpetuity, but my whole platform of work is, what I share is let's help people get to the end of the day. That's it. I'm not talking about 4,199 days. That's my story. But on August 31, 2011, I wasn't thinking about September 1, 2011. I wasn't thinking about September 10. I certainly wasn't thinking about the 2nd of March, 2023. And so I've refocused my work and is everything I teach. Let's just help each other get to the end of the day. That's it. Let's make this so doable with some incredibly slight variations that it's like, wow, okay, so taken off the bridge, emergency room, and then to a psychiatric ward, which was an extraordinarily positive experience. Now I'm headed that way. Family finds out where I am, and to this day, they have issues of reconciling because they didn't see me how I saw myself. They saw me married to a wonderful woman who's still a friend of mine. And we ran an amazing animal sanctuary called A Chance for Bliss. And the listeners out there, we love animals. Just these three souls in front of me now. Didn't tell you it was an amazing place. 100 residents in any one time. And because of my former beloved and she being a mama bear, we wanted the ones that nobody wanted. Sick ones, the dying ones, the tortured, the abused, the afflicted, the ones that nobody wanted. And so we were a forever home. And we were doing great work. And on June 2, 2010, we were the COVID story, half page in the life section of USA Today. I did not fit the image. And not only that, there were no signs, no signs at all. And one of the things that I try to provide a contrast to is while it's important that we know the signs, within the military, where I do most of my work and even in society, the belief is if we educate enough people about the signs, we'll be able to eliminate this experience, because the signs were always there. But I'll Tell you, I did it yesterday in the six briefs I did with the Air Force. Every time I said, okay, how many people here know of someone who's lost this fight? Let's say in a group of 100, there might be 50 people. I say, okay, of those 50, how many of those souls who are no longer here showed obvious signs? Maybe three hands. Yeah.

I want to ask you a question right here, Woody. When you were on the COVID of USA Today in that moment, did you know that you were struggling with some kind of a mental health problem?

Well, I knew.

It was just the rest of us didn't, obviously. But did you?

I mean, yeah, I'd struggled most all of my life. So it was there. I mean, what I would say is that that experience of initially being interviewed, having this wonderful young man, Justin Case Conder, coming up and took pictures, and then the aftermath, the outpouring, the financial relief, that really was pushed far into the recesses of my mind. But it had always been there. I mean, at 48 years old. And really, it was the confluence of. We lost our father when we were really young, but we also had this. We have the genetic influence. There have been suicide in our family. Our father, Tom and I and Jim, John's father passed away at 41. And while cancer just took him, but the ravages of depression just hollowed him out. Then trauma for me, of losing our father at seven and the horror of being tortured and raped by a Boy scout leader at 11 years old. So it wasn't until I was in my 20s that I realized how long I'd actually been struggling with it. But then, even when we were running the sanctuary, it was there.

And as you say so well and so eloquently, sometimes what hurts the most can't be seen. Which is your point here with your. Probably not going to have any signs, Right, because those are the signs. Those. Those expressions or feelings that we feel inside, or as you're highlighting, something that we keep close to the chest until we can't any longer.

No. And the other thing now that I've added in is there are different things. That one, I think, while I understand the intention, is good. We're not going to get to zero as long as there are human beings standing upright. There is not going to be a time in human experience in which we're not going to have people get to the point where it's harder to live than it is to die. It has nothing to do with mental illness. It doesn't. It actually has to do with what I like to say mental despair, mental anguish because of some sort of trauma. You know, a family member, a husband whose wife is killed by a drunk driver going the wrong way, a parent who loses a child when somebody comes into a classroom and murders them, an older couple who has had every single dollar of their retirement savings taken away because of a Ponzi scheme, cyber bullying that is happening. Any of those situations, it can get a soul, a being, to the point where, like, you know what? I've done everything I can. I just can't bear this. And it has nothing to do with weak mindedness. It has nothing to do with resilience. It doesn't have anything to do with coping mechanisms. Because when we say that, what we're not so subtly saying is, you know, should have just tried a little harder.

Well, and I would like to point out that Woody, well, his name's David. We all call him Woody. I've been close to him my whole life. We have an extraordinary close family, like we've all said, and he's been to counseling. You went to counseling for a very long time before this happened. And you were on mental health medication for a very long time before this happened. I would like to say that you have probably one of the most supportive family that anyone could ever have. So you were doing all of the things that would be recommended to someone who had suicidal ideations. You were doing all of them? Yes. Yes. You were in a very stressful place because your animal sanctuary was failing. Because you didn't have. Not because of you guys, just because of how much money it cost to bring in. That was. That was a huge burden on your soul and Deanna's soul. But to anyone who doesn't know Woody's story, he was doing everything that would be recommended for a person who is struggling. So maybe not to the extent that he could have at that time, but that's just because he was in so much pain. I'm just emphasizing your point that you are right. When these things happen, a lot of people are doing everything they should be doing and they're still attempting suicide. So there is going to be a point where we can't get to zero. But also, Woody is the epitome of a person who, if this would have happened, everyone who came to his funeral would have said, he was the happiest guy I'd ever met. Because when you meet him, he's dancing, he's joking, he's making everyone around him so happy. He is so generous. He cares for his animals better than people care for their children. He lights the room up when he comes into it. And how many times do we hear that about people who commit suicide who are successful? So many times. So, I mean, it just goes to show, yes, we're never going to get to zero if we know the signs. We still can know the signs and not see that it's happening. So is there any kind of answer to this situation? Do you know what I mean?

No. Well, Juan Bergi, thank you. Yeah, I think. And part of it is, for me, it's just changing the narrative just a little bit. And one of it is, in addition, I just say, look, let's take the whole sign thing and just put it away, because it is. Look, I do the surveys all the time. It is unbelievably rare. So let's just. Actually, let's make the assumption we're not going to see him. We know about him. If we do, that's a bonus. So I can teach you a way to operate. This is not a hopeless situation. I'm not just going to throw out a problem without a potential solution. I don't even like the word solution. A possibility. This is just a possibility. None of it's perfect. I'm not trying to be right. But the other thing that we think we know why people kill themselves. We don't. We don't. And that's actually a good thing in the sense that. Because when we encounter a problem in any part of our life, Tom and Stacy and what the three of you do, when we encounter something that we don't understand, we say, I don't know. All of a sudden, now, it's a beautiful thing because we look at a whole spectrum of possibilities from all the different angles. We're not doing that with suicide. We're saying, okay, this is why people. Because, you know, this, this, this and this. Some of that's right. But we're trying to put it in a box. A thing that could. Thing has no, no, doesn't. Honor rules of engagement is really quite impressive. You have to give it credit in terms of its ability to be fluid, hide in plain sight, to constantly adapt, to be tactically creative. Why don't we do the same thing? What I say to people is, this enemy. We think we're like in a civil war. We have the unreasonable expectation that suicide is going to line up in a straight line and allow us to shoot straight. Like it ain't gonna happen at all. Like it's impossible. It's okay to say, I don't know. That's actually A good thing.

And I just want to give a shout out for maybe people who are supporting people who are wrestling with suicidal ideations. Right. Because sometimes you can feel helpless and you can feel like it's your fault and kind of like that box you're talking about. Woody, we're starting to go through all of our past experiences and feel responsible to some degree because we all have messes that we make in our relationship. So then it takes on this weight in and of itself. Oh, it must be when I said this to you, you know, I must. It must have been when I mistreated you here. Oh, my gosh, I'm. And so we can take it so. So to heart, which dismantles us and prevents us from being that support system to the person who's struggling if we start to take these things personal and heaven fit. And I want to extend some love to those of you who maybe have lost somebody to suicide in your life that you loved and to let you know that it is not your fault. It is not your fault. And I hope that's a huge takeaway that you take from this conversation that there's probably not a place you're going to see the signs. There's probably reasons you'll never know about why the person committed suicide because it was just not expressed. And so please don't go back through your history and pinpoint a point in time and a mistake that you made and deem that the reason why you think this has happened because it's not probably correct. And that just kind of keeps you struggling and unable to move on and to celebrate the life of this person who's contributed so much in your world, celebrate that. That's a conversation for another time, but I just really wanted to highlight that while you're here, I think as an important piece to add to the mix.

I know word how David, you know what he advocates, and that's really exciting because we all can very much participate in and the methods that David shares with us how. Because we're not going to see the signs. Let's just. We're not going to. What can we do, Woody, instead of what we traditionally think is what we should do?

And I will really, as you all know, my platform is connection creates hope. Hope. Hope is a weapon. Hope saves lives. And if you take it. Renee Brown says, I want to take things out of the ethereal in the abstract and put them very, very tangible. So here's the definition by the great Brene Brown. I define connection as the energy that exists between People, when they feel seen, heard and valued, when they can give and receive without judgment, and they derive strength and sustenance from the relationship. Now, yes, like, we're like, okay, amen. But where I think people can get maybe. What's the word off balance on it is they think, okay, the relationship is like the relationships that all three of you talk. But it's like the relationship that I wear that's symbolized by this ring. But you can have. I'm a big advocate for what I call micro relationships. Relationships with people that you see on a somewhat regular basis at the dry cleaners, at the grocery store where you work out, you're still in relationship with a person. It's just when two or more human beings are together, but it doesn't mean you're going to go have a beer with them or go out to dinner, but it's still these. That's why it's the strength of relationships. When we realize they don't just have to be one certain way. Because you can't have the experience of connection unless you're in some form of a relationship in the moment, long term, short term, a lot of time, a short period of time. Connection only happens when you're in the union with another human being. And in that hope always happens. When we have the experience of feeling seen, heard, and valued, it is impossible for us not to feel hope filled. And again, in the moment of hope filled, it can cause a disruption in the moment, maybe not last. You can get somebody to the end of the day doesn't mean that they're not potentially going to kill themselves the next day. I'm just talking about, let's get to the end of the day.

That's it.

Let me give you a story, and you may have heard it, but it's the only data point that I use because I could take hope and make it tangible. So 1952, a guy wanted to measure hope, so he took a rat. A rat's known as a really good swimmer. So he takes a container of water, and he puts the rat in the container of water in times. Hey, little Michael Phelps. Little furry Michael Phelps. How long could you swim, right? About 15 minutes. Pretty impressive. And right at that point when the rat was about to lose hope, takes the rat out of the water, dries him off, puts him on a solid surface and gives him just a little bit of time to his respiration to normalize. Then rat's probably thinking, damn, I'm exhausted. I'm going back to my cage and taking that. So you Imagine the rat, instead of going back to the cage, he's going back in the water. The guy puts him back in the water for the second time. Like, how long could you swim the second time? Now, I don't know if the three of you know the true answer. If you don't, what would you think? 15 minutes all out. Like, imagine you have gone fully out in your cross training, like you got nothing left, and now all of a sudden you got to do it again.

I would. I would say it would go down by five. Okay, so, yeah, 10 minutes.

Yeah.

Eight minutes, Tommy?

Yeah, I think, yeah, I would say, yeah. I mean, if you could be close to what you did, that first Herculean effort would be amazing, right? So, yeah, maybe, yeah. Between, say, 10 and 12, I would bet.

Well, I feel like now that you're asking us this, it's going to be more like 20.

Yeah, interesting. You know what the data says? Two and a half days. Two and one half day. You can look it up. It's called The Hope Experiment. 60 hours. 60 hours, two and one half days. And you think, okay, now you're talking. You're talking bs but if you think about why this makes sense. The rat's thinking. One look at you. The literal definition of hope is the expectancy that something good is going to happen. Not the guarantee, the expectancy that something good is going to happen. The rat has the experience. I was rescued the first time. Why wouldn't I be rescued the second time? There's no reason why. Imagine you're in a boat and you're out in the ocean. Weather comes up, your boat capsizes. God, love. The Coast Guard comes and rescues you. Let's say, by some horrific, terrible coincidence, sometime in the future you're in that same situation. You don't think you could tread water longer? Like, why wouldn't the Coast Guard come back? So what if we could give each other by feeling seen, heard and valued, by ways I will share with you that there is this expectancy that something good is going to happen. Could that get us to the end of the day? Like, yeah, of course it could. You know, it's not perfect, but what if we use, like, the simple things that each of you talk about in the relationship to make some changes? What if it's a transferable skill? And I think we'd say, could it really. Could it really make a difference? But okay, look, 15 minutes, two and a half days. The other data point I'll use. I talk a lot about handwritten notes. So they did a study of 700 people who had attempted to kill themselves by self poisoning, divided into two groups in the classic scientific way, and the one group that they interacted with once a month for the next 12 months, they just sent them a note. Hey, thinking about you. We think you're a badass. If you need anything from us, let us know. They went back and looked at the data. The group that they observed and sent the notes once a month for 12 months, they reduced the number of repeat attempts by 50%. Then they did a study following up, like five years later, that same group was still lower in the repeat attempts because they sent them a note. Because you know what the note did? I feel seen, heard, and value. It's not complicated. The steps are not complicated. So why can't the solution be accessible and doable? End of the day, let's get just to the end first. That's it. That's the only thing I want us to do. Because you know what? That creates a possibility. I just. I'm just. Let's create a possibility.

Reminds me of all those stories where people will say, you know, I was going home to kill myself, but someone was nice to me.

Exactly.

Someone was nice and bought my dinner or just even said they liked my sweatshirt or. It's just. It's a reminder that you matter.

Well, and it is. You get. We're giving people an experience of matter. And. And I will end every talk with this quote from an extraordinary psychiatrist, Drew Ramsey, which is here. It's a. It's. It's a good place to put it in. Brookie, to your point, and that. Here's what he says. Someone you see today is thinking about killing themselves. Your smile, your question, your love. You know what? It could save them. You know why I know? Because they told me it did. But just think that that's the problem and the possibility right there. So we. Every single day, every single one of us, we will come across somebody. We won't see it. That there's. We will encounter one soul on every day that is thinking about killing. It will. It's not. And it's what's interesting. There's this. I saw this great cartoon. It was two dinosaurs. And the one said, you know, be kind to everybody. They're fighting a battle. And the other dinosaur says, why would I be kind? I'd be ruthless and brutal, and I would follow them into battle by their side. I'm like, just love that. It is this thing the same. The same cartoonist said, one dinosaur says, you know, I love walking in the woods. It gives me time to think. And the other dinosaur says, why do you always bring me along? And the first dinosaur says, because my thoughts are much nicer when you're with me. Because I think it's so true. Like, no, I, you know, be kind. No, I want you to be ruthless and go by with me in the battle. And this other new thing that I put in is about empathy. And says, this is because of you. You don't know if you remember this, that you said to me one day, said, sweetheart, I don't think it's so much. I feel you as it is I'm feeling with you. But I think, wow, that's empathy. And I took that as I got an inspiration one day, walking the dogs that, you know, the common adage is you have to walk a mile in somebody else's shoes. And it dawned on me. I'm like, what if my shoes don't fit? What if they're either too small and your feet hurt or what if they're too big? It's going to give you blisters. And here's the other thing. You're walking in my shoes. You're going to be going on this journey. You're going to see stuff that you have no reference to. So how about this? I'm going to keep my shoes on you please keep your shoes on. How about we companion together. And when you see something that causes me to be suffering and you don't understand it, like, hey, wow, what does that mean? How. What, what feelings come up? Because then what's going to happen is we are going to understand, you know what? So every. I just, I'm just trying to flip common adages, not that they're wrong, but I don't think, like, I don't want to wear your stinky shoes. No, I don't. And the other thing that I'll add right here is. And very passionate. Look, understanding and agreement have nothing to do with each other. Like, we don't agree with racism. We don't agree with sexual assault. But if we don't understand it, okay, when I work with the military, I said, but here's the good news. The converse is Sun Tzu, Art of War. If you know yourself and you know your enemy, you need not fear the outcome of a thousand battles. We don't understand the enemy. We just, nope, say no, we don't. And that's, you know what? Okay, that's okay. We don't know. So let's be different. Let's take whatever rules of engagement. This gentleman. Gentlemanly thing, throw it out, you know what? And now I'm. I'm gonna flip him around. I'm do things that he has no expectation. I'm not gonna say, hey, let's. Let's have somebody live for 20 years. I'm like, you know what, dude? I'm just trying to get people the end of the day. That's it.

Yeah, I love that. Because, you know, we, we say often over here that if you understand somebody's behavior, the emotional driver of that behavior, it always makes sense challenges. And the problem is we don't take the time to understand the emotional driver. Therefore, the behavior seems crazy, it seems outlandish. And we judge that behavior thinking that we know and understand what's happening, when in fact, you do not. Because we haven't taken the time to listen and understand what the emotional driver or feelings or experience is for the other person. And I feel like for us and our work, that communication piece is. That's the whole benefit of communication. And that's a hard period. Like, that's what communication is for. Not for weaponry, you know, not to manipulate, leverage, coerce, talk out of, minimize, shut down, judge, but to understand. And that's the, the most beautiful gift of communication that we have given ourselves and each other. And yet it's the one we don't use. It's the one we use the least.

What was the stat you said at the beginning? How many years people wait to get help?

11.

11.

Okay. Well, I waited about like 25, I think. I've been anxious from the age of 10. And I didn't get on Lexapro until 2018. And even then, I have a family who's very open about mental illness and mental health. You could talk to any one of my family members. I could talk to it about them. I talked to Woody many times. But even then, I still felt shame about going on the medication. I still felt like I was a failure. I still felt really nervous before taking my first pill. I still felt like, God, I have a great family. I have all of these things. Why do I need to take this medicine? You know? And I just know that there are so many other people out there that maybe you don't have suicidal ideations, but you're really struggling because having intense depression and anxiety is debilitating, and it makes even going to the grocery store feel impossible. So I just want to say to anyone who's feeling that way, I've been a LexPro since then, and it's changed my life. I. I can. I. I was Able to get through a pandemic, which was literally my worst fear. Like, hearing about that word as a kid made me think the world would end. And, yeah, it was. It was an awful time, and a lot of people died, and it was terrible. You know, I don't want to take. I don't want to say Lexapro, you know, made it okay for everybody, but it is a tool that allows me to live my life, you know, and I wasn't living for a long time. So I just want to encourage anyone who is feeling anything, like we've talked about today, resonates with them. Get help, because it really can change your life.

I would agree. There's like this little magic trick to underscore what Brookie's saying. You can't do this alone. You will always lose with the monster. But the monster has no defense when it's two against one. So the little magic trick is if you imagine in your mind, take the word illness, I, L, L, N E S S. If you take I out and put we in, it's wellness.

Wellness.

It's just that it's right. I mean, all these things, it's. What you talk about is what. What I share. I mean, the whole thing, the possibility to change the course of this crisis, just like you've done in relationships. It's right here. It is. It is leveraging communication. There's a quote that says that the greatest antidote to violence is conversation. And on the opposite side of that, Parker Palmer says, is violence is what happens when we don't know what else to do with our suffering. So in other words, and then another quote that says to not have your suffering recognized is an almost unspeakable form of violence. So all those things. So the later two is. You're not talking about it. The first one by Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks says, like the greatest, the powerful weapon, because, okay, one conversation, seen, heard, value, result of a connection is always hope. That's it, you know, but it's not perfect because you can still tell people, look, you can do everything perfect. You can do. You can do it. There's still people who will pull the trigger. There are still people who will pull. Jump off the bridge. But I like to say there's also people who won't. Like, how do we have to get to zero to feel like we're having some sort of success? Because we talk about what's the ripple effect, the unimaginably devastating ripple effect on the people who survived the loss of somebody who's died. But, you know, we don't look at what's the ripple effect when they don't. What's the ripple effect when someone who is suicidal or an attempted. And yet because of. With other people, illness to wellness, that they chart a path. We don't focus on that. Why don't we give. We got to give credit to both sides of the equation. So that's what. We don't have to get to 01. I don't think we will. But let's say we could. Why not have some recognition? Let's celebrate. Let's honor the. How about these people come back and say, oh my God, how did you. How did you say safe? But we're discounting what it took and what other people did to keep these people safe while saying, okay, we got to go this number, this number. And that's what I share with the military. I said, look, you have to change all of the way you look at this. And if you do like everything else, your skills that you have there, just transfer them here and you will keep people safe.

So as we land this, I'm going to butt in because I haven't got much chance to share as we land this again, you know, you being in a relationship with your wonderful beloved Summer, and you've talked about this often when you know someone's struggling us uninformed, if you will, typically we say some version of a like, what's wrong with you?

So calm down.

So share with people that you know what you know. When we have someone, a lover, a special someone, a husband, a wife, and we're not the one that's suffering. What is most useful to hear on your side when you are having a bad day?

So it really is. It goes back to what you had said. It's all about communication now. And that's funny. Cause Summer in her great love for me and really we've leveraged the. And I'm sure you've shared this is something playing in your movie to create this environment in which you say, hey, something seems off. And now when I'm at a chair, God love my beloved. Her almost immediate response is to try to fix the problem. And I say, honey, I just. Lady Bird Johnson said people need to be given the opportunity to hurt out loud. So it really is Tom to your question is, would you please share with me how are you feeling? You know, Cher asks, what's it like when you feel your worst. Like, what's it like in your worst moments? And then just don't try to fix anything. It's not, you know, What I say to people is, it's tough to stand in the midst of somebody that you love, and they're really in anguish and they're suffering. But realize what's the three steps to that place of crisis? It's something bad and a belief and a feeling. So if you reverse engineer the problem, what do you have to start with? You start with a feeling. So if we cut somebody's suffering short in the sense of emotion, emoting, we're not going to be able to get down to the core to ultimately find out, to disassemble this thing, whatever period of time, like Brookie had talked about. So it really. For me, when Summer. And we do the exercise which Dr. C taught us, and now I've expanded into a leadership thing. So when Summer has this experience, like, okay, I feel like you're suffering. Here's the exercise. So when I'm in the place of cognitive distortion, so I'll sit across from Summer, Summer has a piece of paper and say, all right, sweetie, please share with me. How do you feel? What do you think? And I'll say, like, I'm worthless. I'm a terrible dad to Ethan, Bella, and Grace. I have no value. I'm an imposter as a speaker. So all she does is just record it. And she says, okay, may I offer my view? And she'll say, okay, you say, you're a terrible father. I saw this. I saw this. It's not. I felt it. It's like a tangible, actionable thing. Here's my experience and feeling. Here's this other person. We'll go down. This whole thing, she's not trying to change how I feel. All she's doing is giving me. Because this whole thing lives inside you. All of a sudden now you. You realize in the moment, just like it is amazing. So I teach army officers, say, look, you have a soldier come in, do this. Like, why do you think you're worth. Again it. What I try to teach the military is I want to create these ways within the military paradigm to allow you a more comfortable way to facilitate people expressing how they feel. Because you're. They're not even going to realize they're talking about their feelings. So, Tommy, it really comes down to that. I say the same thing to parents, you know, when they know their child is anguishing, just. I say, I know this is tough. Ask your child, like, sweetheart, what's it like when you feel overwhelmingly depressed? And, sweetheart, what's it like on your very worst days? And resist the ingrained intention to try to rescue your child from those feelings. And all you do is listen. Because Rachel Naomi Remond says this is the power. The other part of the conversation is she says our listening creates a sanctuary for the homeless parts in another person. It's like, bingo. That's all you got to do.

Yeah.

And. And the last part of this is, please just go home, write on a piece of paper, take the question why rip it up, please go through the rest of your life. You do it. Is it. Is it a dangerous. It is a defensive creating position that when you say, why are you late? As opposed to, hey, would you please tell me what caused you to be late? Totally different. You can. There's no why question. You can't transfer into a what. And now you've established a foundation in which there's the possibility not only will somebody share, you will see something, you'll learn something, like, oh, my God, you know, why are you late? What. What caused you today? You know what? I couldn't get out of bed. Like, wow, you know what, what's that like? Like, okay, that changes everything because all of a sudden you just adjusted a why to a what? You know, when I teach, you'll see. I see officers like, oh, wow, that, yeah, totally get that.

Yeah. I think sometimes as human beings, we don't realize that when we allow somebody to talk through and they have somebody to speak with, that they're actually working their thoughts and feelings out for themselves. And they can finally take those tumbling, obsessive, ruminating thoughts and they can pull them outside of themselves to share with you. And then I can see them from a different perspective or a different lens. And when we do cut it short, we're thwarting that process of me really being able to understand myself. And so the gift we give by listening is allowing a human being to do that process. The gift of listening comes from, this is the moment where I get to have a little peek into the window of somebody else's soul. And when I shut it down, when I dismiss it, when I criticize it, when I judge it, when I think I have to rush in and save the day, you have just robbed both of you of a very precious moment where I don't get to see into you and you now can't work or express those things out and understand yourself better. And so there's very much a two way street there that I think we need to become more aware of, because it really is the essence of what it is we say we want in the relationship space for you to understand me. And for me to understand you. And we don't realize that it's in these subtle ways we miss that opportunity for growth and expansion and comfort and hope and love, you know that we say we want in just those little teeny tiny moments, you know, because we wanted.

We wanted to tingle our toes.

Exactly. We wanted to dingle our toes. Hey, I just want to say if you or someone you know is in crisis, I, I'm going to encourage you to contact the suicide prevention line at 1-800-273-TALK-TALK is 8255 or dial 911 in case of an emergency. And if yourself are inflicting harm on those that you love, I encourage you to get anonymous help and Support by calling 877-893-3411. And I'm going to repeat that number, 877-898-3411. You'll also gain access to learning how to be a safe partner and parent. And again, this is all anonymous. This is not linked to any kind of law enforcement, law enforcement, etc. This is to help help you get a better handle on other ways that you can show up and love the people that you love even though you're hurting. And I think those are two important numbers.

And sis, if I may, I just want to add one thing and that a buddy gave me this idea and I tried it in terms of the suicide number that you know that phone can weigh like a thousand pounds. So my buddy suggested this when, when you, when you have a recurring experience of this when you're feeling good, pick up the hotline and call and just say hey, feeling okay and. But there is a possibility at one point I'll get into a bad place. I wanted to make it easier to call the second time because I've had this and I'm like okay, that is a freaking brilliant. As my good buddy Greg. So I tried it one day and it was amazing. The only thing that was interesting is that there was some hold music that a short period of time it was awful. So I actually sent them a note and I'm like your whole music is just sucks and God love them. They said oh my God, we didn't know, we'll change it. So but yeah, practice if you know you're in it up and down when you're feeling good, just pick up the phone because here's what's going to happen is next time you do it one, you'll know what to expect. It won't be this foreign thing. It just can set you up with the possibility that, you know what, I'm going to pick up the phone. So just a thought from a friend. I've done it myself and it's just like, wow, that's a great idea.

Last thing, if you would like to know more about Woody David, go to David woods bartley.com Also, he's given a TEDx talk and you can listen to it by going to his website because I'm sure a lot of people would like to listen and watch.

My website is going to get some, some revisions by the person who just spoke.

Hey, I'm feeling like there's been so many wonderful, juicy things that were shared here as we land this episode. How about if we all go around and just give our listeners the primary takeaway that we want to leave them with as our sharing wraps up today. And Woody, I think we're going to let you go first.

I think, you know, Hope, this is a very difficult situation and there's not a singular way. Sociologists call it one of the wicked problems. So like the other things, there's not just one way, but for me, the foundation is hope. And we have the opportunity to experience it, not just the other person, but ourselves, because it's purely reciprocal. And in the experience of hope for somebody like me, it can give us the ability to hold on. Pain ends and hope is not Pollyanna. Hope says this sucks, but to the end of the day, that's it. Oh, that's what I would offer.

Yeah, that's awesome.

Brookie, I would just say if you feel like you're having a really rough time in your life life and you don't feel like you have any safe people to reach out to for help, you can, you can reach out to those numbers that mom too said, but you can also reach out to any of us as well. You can reach out to us by loveacbartly.com or I'm going to give out your email address. What do you can. Davidavidwoodsbartley.com and all four of us would love to talk to you and help you. So you have us for at least.

Absolutely, absolutely.

And I would say, you know, and this is David's message, correct me if I'm wrong, you just can't underestimate just a very simple hello to someone that's crossing our path. You cannot, I mean, David has just given us phenomenal statistics to prove otherwise. And so I think, you know, we get so wrapped up, I think, and you might think crosses your path in some way, shape or form every single day. All of us. And do not discount the magnitude of what that potentially could be for somebody we just saw. I mean, it's. We all have a part to play in this. We do. I mean, and, and what a contribution just from something that is. Everyone has access to. We do. I mean, David's phenomenal. Remembering someone's name. Well, guess what?

In the store, remember, everyone has their name on their name tag.

People look up to you like from.

Like, how did you know my name?

I feel like saying dude or gal.

It's on your, it's on your lapel. They think you're like, how, like, oh my gosh, you. Yeah, well, it's. Fred is right on your shirt.

You know, I mean, like, it's so simple. It really is. And which is refreshing. That's good news.

I, I think my thought here is it's not your job to save anybody.

Amen.

It's your job to just share with somebody and whether it prevents suicide or it doesn't, know that that is all you have to give and that is enough. That's the allowing of listening to somebody and being there for somebody and giving somebody a little bit of hope is enough. That is what we have right now and that's the best thing that we can give. And you're not responsible for the decisions and choices of other people. All we can do is do our best to let them know for us in this moment, it matters. And I'm willing to give you a little bit of my time by listening. So I think those are the greatest things that we have in our toolbox to affect change in this environment and give ourselves a little bit of comfort. So thank you so much, Woody, for coming.

Oh my God.

You need to get on airplane, my brother, don't you?

No, I'm coming from Seattle. You get to go home and Yahoo.

As we had a follow the fun to this episode, I wanted to add encourage some good news. I'm going to encourage you to say and spread messages like this. You can share them verbally, you can write them on notes of paper, you can hang them around the house. Heck, you could even hang them around the neighborhood because they're messages that we all need to remember as we embrace this idea of mental wellness. Number one, you're not what's happened to you. You're actually so much more. Number two, you desire, deserve good things simply because you're alive. Number three, being enough and worthy has nothing to do with your behavior. Number four, no matter where you are right now, things can become really good again. Remember Love is everywhere. Give some and receive some each and every day. And as our guest today on the show reminded us, we're just looking to get to the end of the day. And if we can create a little bit of hope at the end of the day, tomorrow seems a little bit more doable as we turn the corner here and land this episode. Our song today, I just. I was looking for something where we could just kind of sit and be and breathe and enjoy. And so I selected, oh, the old classic Kenny G. He has a wonderful song called the Moment. It's an instrumental song where he plays this beautiful clarinet and just let it carry you away and help you breathe and realize that. Okay, we got this. Slow is fast. I can breathe, I can slow down. I can take it all in. And remember as you are right now is an okay place to be. Begin from there and then let's go on just one more day. You can listen to this week's song on our website. You can also listen on the Spotify playlist, Love Shack Live playlist. And if by chance you have a conversation that you would like to have or some shares about this episode, your personal stories, just know that they are welcome here with us today. We're Tom and Stacey Bartley. We're the hosts of Love Shack Live along with our beautiful Brooke Brown, woman extraordinaire. It's been a pleasure to give this information to you, to share it with you, and we hope that it's made a difference in your life. That's why we wanted to create it for you. So long for now and know that we look forward to connecting with you again next week inside the Love Shack. Bye bye for now.

Okay, everybody, time to go. We gotta close the doors to the Love Shack for this week. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. Come back next week though and join us for another edition of Love Shack Live with Tom and Stacey Bartley.