#135: The No-Contact Phenomenon: A Deep Dive into Family Estrangement

There was once a bond there, whether that was blood or emotional. And then when those bonds get severed, it has an impact on us as a human being. Hey, thank you for coming.

Welcome to the Love Shack.

Hey, welcome to the Love Shack. It's a little old place where we get to get together, explore fresh perspectives and eavesdrop on juicy conversations to discover the things that really matter while having a little bit of fun along the way. This is episode number 135, the no contact phenomenon. We're going to do a deep dive into family estrangement and how it applies to human relationships overall. So I'm Stacy Bartley. I'm your host here and I have a co host, which is my wonderful husband and co creator of All Things Relationship. We also are happy and honored to be joined by our Brookie Brown, who will be joining us through conversation. This conversation in particular, because we have the dynamic we're talking about here. Tom and I are of the baby boomer age in this estrangement conversation, and Brookie just happens to be a millennial. I also want to create the parallels that this conversation about parent child relationships very much plays out in partner relationships. Husband, wife, spouses, couple relationship. There's a lot of similarities. And so we're going to point those out along the way. And this is something that we're going to dive into. Basically, what is it, why is it happening and how do you navigate it both if you're the parent longing to re engage with your adult or the adult child who's dealing with the emotional impact of cutting your parents off. And like I said, also throughout this conversation, I'm going to point out how relationally, between whether we're talking about parents and their offspring spring. It's very similar to what plays out between couples headed for separation and divorce. So let's step into understanding what family estrangement is first. And I also want to just impart. The reason why we're having this conversation is because we are all about things, love and relationship, right? Both with ourselves and others and family. Family relationships very much impact our romantic relationships. Those things go in tandem. In fact, the reason that is the case is probably obvious, but I feel like I need to say it. What we learn from our family of origin about relationships very much plays a role in my relationships. When I now step into being a couple, a partner and raising a family of my own, I'm either going to model what it is I learned because that resonated for me, or I felt like this is what you do to be A good husband, wife, parent, father, or I'm going to rebel against that and I'm going to want nothing to do with it and I'm going to want to create something entirely different.

And I would just add, if you're a Brady Bunch like we are now, you have more moving parts of the situation because let's say one of the persons in the couple, they are estranged from their children and the other spouse, husband, wife is not significant other. Now we have dynamics interplaying amongst that challenge as well. So there's a lot of moving parts here. This is really significant. I saw this trending and I reached out to Brooke and she confirmed this is a huge conversation that's going on right now.

And because it is large and has throw off an impact in many, many places of our relational experience as a human being, we're going to do our best to cover it in this topic. But it very well may be something that we may need to come back and talk to several more times before we feel like we've said all we wanted to say around it. So we're going to do our best to walk you through it with us as our listener and to highlight some points and give you some great takeaways to just begin this conversation. So let's talk about what estrangement is so that we can all kind of create a place to begin this conversation. The inspiration for this podcast episode comes from an article that Tom mentioned just a few minutes ago and that can be found in the Cosmopolitan and it's titled why so Many Young People Are Cutting Off Their Parents and is written by Fortessa Latifi. There's also going to be a link to this article in the show Notes. So if you're wanting to actually read the article that inspired us to have this conversation, you can check it out there. So let's dive in. What's family estrangement? It's when young adults cut off their parents. Simply put, this is happening more now than ever before in our known history. Even though it goes against what most of us are taught as children. Things like the family is forever and the bonds of blood cannot be replicated. No one will ever love you like your family. I remember hearing that when I was growing up. They'll provide for your physical and emotional well being and there is nothing that's unmatchable, right? Not friends. I remember hearing your friends are going to come and go, but your family will always be here for you. Your family is going to be there for you through thick and thin and your Friends and lovers, they're going to come and go. No worries. We got you. That was very much the mindset that I grew up in. I just want to pause here for a moment. Does this sound a lot like the narrative between husbands and wives to you? It sure does to me. It's the duty of your spouse to love you for who you are, have your back, and never leave you, no matter what. We're even expected to choose our partners over our families upon marriage. In the Bible, I selected a passage, Genesis, chapter 2, verse 24. It says, Therefore, a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the woman will cleave unto her husband, and they shall become one flesh. Interesting. In spite of these conflicted beliefs that we have been raised in, in the narrative, in our culture, relationally, it seems we have had enough of holding to these beliefs, both with our parents and our partners. It seems as though there's a new emerging belief that appears to be more along the lines of, I do not, will not, put up with mistreatment from anyone. It doesn't matter if we're married or we're blood. I can't do it anymore. And so I just want to dive into a survey that was actually done, and it's highlighted again in this that I found really interesting. In spite of these beliefs and narratives that we've been raised in, even though they're conflicting, we both probably have had an experience, I know I certainly have, of personally being stuck in them. I've navigated both of those conversations in my evolution of becoming an adult woman from my family of origin, through religious beliefs, through having to navigate what's mine and what isn't. As a parent with my children, and I am seeing in my office, in my private practice, both online and in person, there is an evolution that's happening, or shall we say a picking up, of couples coming in, having had enough with their parents and having had enough with their in laws and having had enough with their siblings or step family members. And so we are growing weary of being tolerant with some of these things. And so there was a survey done by Carl Pillemer, a professor at Cornell University and author of Fault Lines, Fractured Families and How to Mend Them. And he found that in 2020, when he surveyed Americans over the age of 18, 27% of them were estranged from their family members. That's 25. That's more than 25, like a quarter of them where they were estranged from at least one family member, which is still 25 of us, yeah. Are facing. That's huge. And I love the point that they pointed out in the article that although this is a quarter, he believes that it's much higher because there's still a great reluctance to discuss such personal and stigmatized topics among us. So this is something that, you know, is probably far greater than the 25%.

Well, we've talked about. This is a lot of what we navigate as people on our side. There seems to be such reluctance and so much that goes to the. If you choose to. To share something that we've been taught or told or whatever, demonstrate that we don't talk about those things, we don't share those things in our family. A lot of these types of things are, I think, very much on the low side statistically, because I think a lot of us don't come forward and share.

Well, yeah, there's a lot of shame.

Absolutely. And we can also feel like when we're going through that this is such a confusing place. It doesn't matter what end of the spectrum you're on, whether you're the parent or the child, and all of a sudden you're left with a void that is a very heartbreaking, difficult thing to wrap your head around. And yes, the throw off is going to be a tremendous amount of grief, probably a lot of regret and a lot of emotions are going to come screaming to the surface that absolutely are going to affect our mental health and that's unavoidable simply because there was once a bond there, whether that was blood or emotional. When those bonds get severed, it. It has an impact on us as a human being. So I wanted to dive a little deeper into. Let's avoid. Let's see if we can get through some of the chaos and the confusion about. Let's just look at how this happens. Like how do we get here? Whether we're talking about parent, child, or we're talking about lovers who are approaching a divorce or a separation because it happens from the same place, basically when emotional factors that contribute to a relational estrangement are unmet. Those needs and expectations that we have values and differences that are the refusal to embrace them, to understand them, to share them, or. And. Or lifestyle differences. I have a different lifestyle than I relate to. As far as my children go or my partner goes. I don't relate, I don't understand, I don't want to entertain it, I don't want to talk about it. And then difficult childhood experiences that we come from, those all have an ongoing, continuously accumulating impact on us. As a human being. And that's the case for all of us. And so when we find ourselves in a place where our emotional needs and experiences are misunderstood or outright rejected, it leads to feelings of doubt, grief, regret, unworthiness, or straight up rebellion. I don't want to have anything to do with it. So then insights, the pursuit of relief from this pain and that is sought by the cutting off of essentially the removing of the person or people who inflict these unwanted emotions in us. It is then we believe that we will have the relief and the peace that we typically long for, that we long in these places that are difficult. And regardless of what the circumstances are in any given situation or dynamic, these are the emotional aftermath and, or the building of these emotional experiences that lead us to cutting somebody off, severing the relationship, feeling like we can't go down this road anymore. Now I think it's really important to highlight that because when you really kind of get to the crux of how we operate as human beings, it doesn't seem to be as complicated as it feels. We know that if there are unmet needs or a dismantle dismissal of somebody's beliefs, values, lifestyles, or the dismissal of not wanting to understand what happened in some of these childhood experiences, that's going to create an emotional experience inside of me that I am going to want to find some repose from, some peace with. Because to hang out in that pain for long periods of time with no new understanding or insight is going to dismantle me as a human being. That being the case, how come it gets so complicated and so painful and you can boil it down to literally a couple of things. Number one, my refusal to understand and be with where you're coming from when I don't agree. Okay, when this happens, what we typically do as a human being is we get highly defensive. And when I get defensive, I just want to shut the conversation down. Because to have the conversation brings up unwanted or awkward feelings with inside of myself. And I don't want to do that. And I don't often, in my own illusion see the benefit in going there. Just makes me feel yucky, it makes me feel bad, it makes me feel less than. So I want to avoid it without realizing the good news. The growth, the opportunity is on the other side of that emotion. And there's no way that we can get to the other side of that emotion if you're not willing to sit in it for a moment to understand the person and what they're coming, what they're doing. What they're coming from. I'm going to give you a personal story right here about how this happens in my own life because I am the mother of six biological children and two incredible stepchildren. Okay? There is many conversations and quite frankly, many messes that I have made as an adult parent along the way in navigating the needs emotionally. And remember what I said, it's the emotional needs, it's the conflict in values, it's the conflict in lifestyle. And there's a lot of differences there amongst all of these beautiful human beings that are vastly different than my value system, my lifestyle, what I deem is correct and true and pure. And so if I'm going to bang heads with my adult children about these things, we're going to miss the opportunity for greater understanding and quite frankly, connection amongst us all. I'm going to shut the conversation down instead. And what have we accomplished? I don't get to understand them, they don't get to understand me. And out of that, there's no emerging way forward for us to move forward. And so eventually, if I were to hang out in that space, that relationship would be severed. Now, recently I've had a conversation with my son. He's my middle son. And I just want to paint a picture for you. He was the sweet little boy who didn't want to be a bother to anybody. Now he's surrounded with, with five siblings. He, when he was growing up, didn't feel like he should or needed to advocate for what it is he needed and wanted. He just went along with, he supported me. He was the easiest child to raise. And yet the throw off was that because there were so many other human beings, oft times there was a low level of neglect on his part. Not because I intended it, but because he never squeaked. You know that old saying, squeaky will gets the grease. Everybody else was squeaking. There was five others who were squeaking and some of them exceptionally loudly. And yet he was the sweet little boy. I didn't want to be a bother that hung in the background and often went overlooked. Does this bring emotion up in me right now? Hell yeah, it does. Because I know it's true and I know it happened. But I only came to a place of understanding this, the two of us together collectively, because we were brave enough on both sides to have the conversation. That hurt. And then I could understand why it was that he felt these things. And I could admit you were right. I see how that could happen. And I agree with you. I can see where even though it wasn't my vantage point, even though I didn't see it at the time. I can understand where you're coming from. And you know what? Now he's first on the list, not last, because we understand. And we have an understanding. We have this continuous conversation around this, even to this day. Okay, I want to make sure you're first on the list.

I just want to point out to anyone listening, my stepbrother, who Stacy is talking about, is in his 30s. So this conversation can happen when your child is in their 30s, 40s, 50s. It. Even though they didn't have this conversation long ago, they both weren't ready to, but now they had it. And healing can still take place even now. Like, I think sometimes we feel that, okay, that time has passed. And as the parent, you don't want to talk about it because you have shame about how you handled those situations, even though you're doing the best you could with what you had. But having those conversations, even though they're tough stuff, can heal the parts of the child that needed to heal now.

And it heals me too, right? It's not just about healing the child. It's about. No, they. We heal together. Because then I can look and understand as well as admit and clean up mistakes and messes that were made. Look, we're going to make them as a parent. There is no perfect parent on the planet that does not exist. If we refuse to come to these places of new understanding and insight as a collective, then what happens is no progression or no new path forward can be made. We stay in the same old places, rehashing the same old conversations, and then the desire and the will to have the conversations dies off, and I go, forget it. I'm just going to be done. I can't do this anymore. And those are literally the choices we make. We either muster up the courage and the skill to have these conversations. And so I can grow and my son can grow, and we can find a new understanding and path forward. That's the beauty of talking about it. We can literally talk about and understand the mess and then decide, decide what it is we can do now, today, right, that we didn't do then. And that gives us a path forward to continue to rebuild and establish our relationship. If not, then you're left with nothing. You're left with a void that eventually will become something that may or may not even exist at holidays or birthdays or celebrations. And that's how we get here. Now, look, I know these conversations are ongoing for me, and forever will be. And I've embraced the fact that if I can just have the hard conversation, it's always going to take me to a beautiful place. And I want you to know that that's true for you too. And we can't step into these conversations and have them like we typically do as a human being. Like the minute my son tried to talk about this a matter imagine for a moment if I said, oh, no, son, we don't talk about those things. That's in the past. Why we got to bring it up. That's no big deal, right? I did my best. Don't you understand where I'm coming from? Which is what we would tend to do. I have to say, gosh, this must be true and real for you. Help me understand where you're coming from. You know, how did you come this to of conclusion? What were the components of this that I can learn from? And we can have a different conversation. And once one of you understands the other, because someone has set their agenda down long enough to understand, there will always be an opportunity for the other person to feel understood as well. I like to say give first and give fast in these situations, because the quicker I can understand where you're coming from will be the quicker that you're going to be open enough to understand what my experience was too. Which takes me to another point that I want to make. As human beings, we all have different perspectives and takeaways from any, any chosen given experience. Whether that happens by happenstance or whether it happens by choice. We're going to collect data in our environments with the words that we say and the emotions that are being felt within us, and we're going to put the meaning on that. And I love this exercise. If you get 50 people or a hundred people or a thousand people in a room and you show a picture, you flash a word, you're going to get that many different perspectives. Sure, some will come to the same conclusion, but it's going to be expressed differently. And I think that's really important for us to remember. We're not to be on the same page as our child in regards to what happened in a difficult event that went down. Everybody's going to have their takeaway around that. And our opportunity here is to understand what those perspectives were. That's what contributes to the whole and gives us what it is. We need to decide how it is. We want to go forward and create more of the good stuff, more of the moments that we all long for and we're seeking for, but we cannot get There. If we are unwilling to understand something that doesn't make any sense outside of us, and we only want to defend our perspective and feel hurt and taking it personal on the other side, there is no way for that to happen. Okay, so it's like we block our own path through. We also can get exceptionally frustrated. And when that happens, when the emotions start to run high, and this is where we're probably going to step into. Manipulation, control, force, belittling, criticizing, minimizing. Those are our favorite tactics to reach for. When we feel threatened or have awkward feelings inside of us that we don't know what to do with, that also stops the conversation towards. Towards understanding. There's no way we can get there. If I'm defending the fort on my side, so to speak, there's no new places that we can explore or strategize. Now, I'm not saying these won't make you cry. I'm not saying that these won't incite high levels of emotion for you, which for me just highlights the fact that we got to get better at this. We got to skill up in order to go where it is we want to go and quite frankly deserve to go on both sides. It's important and it matters. And if we don't do these things, if we don't learn the skills that rudder these principles I'm talking about, then our relationships are going to continue to be cut off. There's going to continuously be a void. Now, we think that just because we lop it off, whether I'm talking about a divorce, a separation, or a parent or a child, that we're done with it. The hell you are. You're not done with it. There's going to be a tremendous amount of grief and regret often, more often than not, sometimes, yes, I'm going to agree that there are egregious levels of behavior and circumstances that we've survived where cutting somebody completely off is absolutely warranted. And in those cases, there's going to be a sense of relief. Relief, a sense of peace, a sense of freedom. And if that's not the case for you, if you're left with grief and regret, those are things that are highlighting to you, okay, maybe we can approach this from a different place. Maybe there's a new way that we can step into this conversation or. I'm not ready to let this go quite yet. There's still some things that I'm hopeful of. There's still some things I would like to try and explore. And so I would suggest to you that Rather than just think it's going to be final once you cut somebody off that we do this in phases. I like to think of quasi drawing a line in the sand or declaring what it is you need as more like a garage door. A boundary is more like a garage door often because I can close it all the way for a period of time and then if I want to, I can reopen it and try and establish a connection to see if by chance there has been some evolution on my part from the skilling up or evolution on somebody else's part. If that's where I want to go. I call this a round. We can do as many rounds as we want to. And for those of you who know it's time to completely close that garage door, I honor that as well. It has to be an individual, case by case case. There is no set it and forget it about this. Like I can't say things and please be shy and wary of people who say if somebody ever does this to you, then you need to slam it and be done and shut the door. That might be true for the person telling you that, but it may or may not be true for you. And if you do it against what it is you feel or know to be true inside of yourself, that's when we get this throw off of grief and regret. So there's some things to be explored here in our relationships that are very, very significant. And significant relationships are parent child, as I like to say, they have lifet impact.

I feel like in these situations of adult children cutting off their parents, I'll use the example of not being accepted for being gay or trans or bisexual and their parent is just unwilling to have any type of conversation or accept that. I would probably say that there's a sense of peace for the child and a sense of grief for the adult in that situation. If I feel like it is natural that it probably did happen in stage ages, they probably were like okay, can we talk about this? And then the parent was just unwilling to hear them or yes.

And I've seen it go both ways. I've seen a child cut off a parent and all of a sudden because of the parents grief and regret around these things comes in, does some work and wants to re establish connection to the child. Now because they're in a different place. We also have to remember that pain is an incredible motivator for us as humans beings.

I was saying the same thing as you that that can happen. But for the children who are at their wit's end because they're just like, I don't know what else to do. Then say, I just can't be treated like this anymore. I bet you there's a lot of children who do this, have a sense of peace, but also might feel guilty for feeling that peace, you know?

Yeah, for sure. And that guilt is. This isn't. The guilt comes from. This isn't the narrative that I was told was supposed to play out here in my life. Right. And it was supposed to go a totally different way. And whenever we find ourselves again going back to those things that create pain for us. Right. If I go back to feeling like I'm unwanted, I'm unaccepted, I'm undervalued, my values, my lifestyle, my beliefs are constantly put down and criticized. Just know that's always going to minimize us as a human being. And the generation I come from, quite frankly, that was our greatest tact. Like, you can start to see the evolution of skills and understanding now in the relational realm. Our generation, quite frankly, was raised very much in a conversation of, you do what I say, I'm the parent, don't talk back to me. You have no voice. I'm big, you're little, I'm the leader. And it doesn't really matter how you feel about it. I remember actually hearing those words. I don't care how you feel about it. This is what we're going to do because I'm the parent. You remember hearing that?

Certainly, maybe not those exact. But yes, we have to understand evolution and how things change. I think there's so many. This is like, we've talked about the beginning. It's a huge, huge conversation. But I would say what I sense is so troubling about this, for wherever you fall, whatever side, if you're the parent or the child, in this particular case of estrangement that we're speaking about is it's bumping up anytime that we. We feel being pulled away, voluntarily or not, from our most essential foundation. And I think that's why the times we're living in now are so challenging. Because many of those places that we have a job for a period of time, all these places are literally we're being challenged that that's not going to be the case anymore. And so that's why it takes a lot of careful navigation, I guess.

Well, I want our listeners to be able to see the evolution from when we were being raised by parents to now how parents are raising their children. There's a huge conversation there that has evolved that sometimes we lose sight of or track of historic. There was very much, I'm the leader. You go along, you do what I say and don't buck against it or there's going to be a lot of hell to pay, so to speak. There's going to be punishment, there's going to be conflict, consequences. And so we very much learned not, I had a wonderful childhood, I had a wonderful mother. But I'm just saying we learned very much a low level way of just putting up with and not really saying or stating or disclosing or uncovering how I felt about it. You just kind of learned if you wanted to be successful in what was being imparted to you, to kind of suck up what didn't work for you and do it anyway because you wanted to be part of the family, you wanted to be part of the system. And the threat was always, if you don't go along with what it is we're imparting to you, then you're going to be cut off, off, pushed out, not accepted, criticized, belittled, those kinds of things.

And yeah, and as a byproduct of that, there were a lot of secrets that were kept from parents and you had to hide who you really were. So, yeah, I know some of the baby boomer parents are like, why can't it just be like that anymore? Because people don't want to live like that anymore.

I was just going to say, just like we didn't want to live with the old idea that came from our parents of you're just going to marry somebody and you're to going to just suck it up and you're going to, for 50 years, the rest of your life, because you made your bed, now lie in it, right? That, that we, our generation said, you know what, I don't buy into that. And now our generation of kids are saying, look, I don't care if we're family or blood or not. It's not okay to mistreat anybody for any reason. And now as we're going back, just think about the dynamic here. The, the younger generation who has been born and raised in this, right, because of the evolution from us saying, no, I want our kids to have a, a voice. I know what that felt like to not have a voice when I was a kid. And I want to give that to our children. And so our generation learned to have a voice. It looked, we started implementing this idea that we care about what you think and how you feel. And now our kids are taking up to a whole new level of saying, yeah, and this Other stuff where you keep secrets and not tell the truth and not be who truly you are. And that authentic stuff, we're not going to, we're not going to deal with that either. And there you see the evolution yet again down to the next generation. And so when they approach the baby boomer parents and say, you need to start uncovering your shit, we go, oh, wait a minute, that's not how it was done when I was raised. And you're going to tell me now I have to go and uncover 60 years of stuff. I don't know that I want to do that. I just want to stop here. There's no right or wrong on either side. All we're trying to impart here is how we've arrived at where we are and to dig into and face one. Secrets I just want to impart is the most courageous work we ever do. And thank goodness for our kids that they didn't have a lot of secrets that started to pile up that then they were going to have to address in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s.

The part I meant about the secrets was that kids now feel like they can be their true selves to everybody around them. So you guys, your generation, a lot of gay and lesbian and bisexual and trans people didn't feel that they could tell their parents that because it was their parents way or the highway. So that issue didn't really exist a lot. And if it did, it was highly under wraps and no one really talked about it and it was kept within the family and it was, wasn't shared. So these things are so different now because we feel like we can tell our parents, or some people do, because you, the baby boomers, wanted the kids to have more voice. So this thing like parents today are like, why is this happening? What is going on? Kids are being brainwashed. They're going. No contact. No. It's the evolution that Stacy is talking about here. It's because so much is different from when you guys were connected kids. Now it's different. We don't have to live in secret. We don't have to keep these things in the dark. It's okay to be who you are, but the parents are not really following through all the way on that, you.

Know, so they, they're, because they're human beings, are going to butt into their own value systems. Just like the kids have a value system that was basically ignited when we decided we were going to give them a voice. You know, nothing stays stagnant. So. So this is gonna take a momentum place where they're gonna spiral forward, and of course they're gonna wanna be more and more expressed and more authentic to who they truly are. They don't want that internal emotional conflict that happens when we feel like we need to do one thing, but we better do another, because that's how it's supposed to be done. They're pushing against all of that. And there's some things from their childhood they wanna explore and they wanna understand. And me, our generation, we have a lot of secrets. We felt like we needed to be perfect and we needed to be this demonstration of perfection to our children while we were allowing to have a voice. So we cover up affairs, we cover up abortions, we cover up mistakes of all kinds, sexual attempts to children, addictions, all kinds of things. And we do it under the guise of, I don't want to talk about it. And now our children are saying, I want to talk about it. I want to understand what was going on there. And so I just want you to see the opportunity on both sides if I were to be able to let myself clean up and a mess around a secret, tell the truth about that, is the way we basically help our children understand. Because you don't think for a minute your kids are going to be involved in making some messes. The heck they aren't. And we've just robbed them of the wonderful wisdom that we've learned and discovered from our mess. Like, how did I get there? What was I thinking was going to happen? What was so challenging and difficult about that? Here's some things I could pass along to you. When I made this mess that may or may not help you on your road, you decide. But all of that learning and wisdom gets lost. Because I feel like I can't admit where I made a mess. I don't know how to clean it up. I don't know how to disclose it. And it's really hard sometimes when my child sees me doing things that really I didn't want to be. I didn't want to be a neglectful mother. I didn't want to think ever that one of my children was going without physically or emotionally. And yet I had to sit with that and I had to be with the fact that actually happened for him. And I can actually see how right that got set up. Not intentionally, but what a beautiful moment it was when we could hug and embrace each other and recognize and realize we understood where everybody was coming from. He understood how it happened from my perspective and vantage point. He could understand how it affected and happened from his Vantage point. Like there was a whole nother layer of connection and relationship that was very bonding between my son and I. And he has children and he's a father too, and he's starting to see how this might be something to pay attention to in his own life. That then, because we shared this moment, could be passed down in a form of wisdom. Not shame, not criticism, not embarrassment, not guilt. From a place of this happened, I made a mess. I look back now and see how I could have done better. And because I didn't know this now or didn't know this then, I know it now. So what can we do now in order to improve our relationship going forward? That's the path of progression.

Well, and that's what also creates change. That creates a different precedent if we continue to keep doing these things. These traditions and customs that don't work any, they just keep being replicated. So what you just shared, babe, is how that story changes and a new protocol, a new custom, a new habit gets put in place.

That's one thing I really appreciated about my parents is they always told me the truth about their past. A lot of my friends parents said they never drank before they were 21 or they never tried marijuana or they never had sex before marriage and they were lying through their, their teeth. My parents were always honest with me and they told me they tried alcohol and they told me the real effects of it. Like, yeah, if you get drunk and make a mistake, it can really affect your life. And here's what it feels like to be drunk. Those things really influenced me in a good way, that I didn't really want to try it on my own until I was ready because I had real stories of it from people that I trusted, my parents. I feel like if you just lie and say you've never tried it and you tell your parents, kids, it's bad, what is the point of that? I understand why. Because they want to set a good example and make their child think that they never did it.

Blah, blah, blah.

Wait, that is such a fallacy.

Here's what I want to say. Parents, it's okay that you made messes and you weren't perfect. Disclose them. Because that's how progress is going to be made. And children just want us to clean up messes and see that they are accepted and loved and valued, regardless of what their behavior may be or their differences in lifestyles or values, which are inevitable, by the way. Remember, kids don't come with sameness. That's never going to happen. They all come with their very unique, individualistic expressions of life. And to expect that all your kids are going to fit into a certain mold is to negate who they are and who it is they have the capacity to be. There is no set it and forget it here. And so parents, your children just want to connect with you. They want to heal, they want to understand, they want to move forward. And if we are unwilling to have the conversations, to do some self reflection, to truly, genuinely share the wisdom that matters by sharing our experiences, our mishaps, our mistakes, those are the things that our kids need. Because do you not think for a moment they're going to bump into the same challenges? Of course they are.

And if you act like you are perfect, it just makes us feel like we can't talk to you and that we can't relate to you because, oh, well, they were perfect and they didn't have any of these challenges or want to try any of the things I'm curious about. So I have nothing in common with them.

And children, children, be gentle as, as gentle as possible and skillful about how you approach these conversations with your parents, because what you're asking them to do is so different than anything that they have as a value system or a belief system. And the reality is they probably have a lot of years of baggage from the way that we were raised and the way that we were taught it was supposed to be done. And so it, it absolutely is a courageous moment when a parent says to a child, okay, I'm ready to talk about, about this. Let's do this. I promise you, their armpits are sweaty, and I bet yours are too. Which just highlights the fact that we both desperately want to connect with people. And where we come from and the way that we need to do it is to approach it with some grace, some love, and some clarity and skill. And those are some of the things that we want to help and support you with. Because here's the thing. What's needed to heal and grow forward on all sides is the willingness to realize that your experience and your perspective is not the only perspective. This is going to take courage. Courage. It's going to take patience and it's going to take skill from all parties involved. However, it's truly what each of us desire, acceptance and understanding of self. So I want to highlight, as we wrap this up, what's your part? Because this gets really tricky. What's your part and what's not your part, depending on what side of the aisle you're on here. So what's your Part. If you're a child asking a parent to have a conversation with you is, number one, begin the conversation with acknowledging the reality of what we was given, provided, or missed or longed for on your side. It starts with a reality piece. It could sound a lot like, you know what? I really appreciated that you put a roof over my head and fed me and got me through school or was there for me in these ways. But what's missing for me is I don't understand this. I don't understand this part. And the benefit that I'm looking for for both of us is that we could reestablish a relationship together. We could connect and bond even more and at the very least, least understand each other and our perspectives. Right. Not to compare who's right and wrong and not to belittle and criticize right each other, but to truly step into a place of permission, unconditional love in my world. And the last is the invitation. I would love to have this conversation with you if you're willing. And if you're not right now, I honor that. There might be even a stronger conversation that needs to happen. Something along the lines of, I'd like to understand if you're willing to share about, fill in the blank, what was happening within you when blank happened. And if you're not ready to talk about it, I feel at this point in time, we're going to have to limit our contact because I can tell until I get understanding around these things, I can't move forward. So let me know when you're ready. That might be a way to close the garage door for a while, but you've been clear. Here's the thing. When we say or do things in an attempt to manipulate and force on either side, we're usually left with a huge degree of upset because I, quite frankly, didn't like the way I showed up. Your goal here, your win, is to show up in the very best way you can, saying what you need to say with clarity and specifics, and then firmly stating what you're willing to do and not do and allow them to choose how they're gonna. How they're gonna approach this. Are they gonna step in and have a conversation or not now? If it's not now, no problem. I'm gonna let it rest. But at least you know where I stand here and I can send an invitation later down the road. I can give it some time. Or you might be surprised. They might come back around like we've already highlighted and said, I'm ready to have that conversation you told me you wanted to have because I, I miss you. Just recognize pain in these situations oft times are the catalyst to doing what it is we know we need to do anyway. So those are important takeaways and we're going to put this in a resource for you. Now you might be on the other side of the fence. You might have messes that you haven't come clean with. Right. And you know you need to. Well, how do you clean those up? There's a resource for that as well in the show notes. All you need to do is click the link and what will happen is you'll get access to both. Whether you're the person inviting somebody to clean up up a mess or you're the person who needs to clean up a mess. I'm not going to go into those step by step. But just know that there's a resource for you to, to download and keep with you and read through it. And then of course, if you need help and support with scaling up so that you can step more robustly into these opportunities that await you, you can always reach out to us. We're here to support and encourage you and teach you and mentor you in any way that we possibly can. Is there any other wrap up that we want to do here?

Yeah, I would say that's one of the primary things that we do with people that we've worked with is and many times it takes some outside skilled facilitation to reestablish that permission and safety that otherwise is not there in the beginning. And then through practice. We're all about practice here. If you've been listening to us through some practice and new skills and the ability to execute that, then you and your child, you and your partner will be able to reestablish this permission safety that you hear us talk about endlessly. Because those are the core components between loved ones really. Before you can get anywhere else, you've got to have the Stacy calls permission that truly is unconditional love.

I wanted to to say a lot of times the way this conversation is presented on TikTok by parents who were cut off is they are acting like this is a huge mystery to them or like there's a huge epidemic of children who are catching this disease that's causing them to cut off their parents. And I just want to say after hearing this conversation, I'm sure all of everyone listening can understand that that's not what's happening at all. It's very obvious what's happening. Once you break it down in the way that we did. There's always a reason. There's always a failure to communicate. That's happened between both parties. And I'm not saying who's right or who's wrong, but there is no epidemic of children that are catching a disease to cut off their parents. And we're not like, in cahoots behind the scenes encouraging each other to cut our parents off. But that is a fear that is happening, which I can understand why parents are being fearful of that. But what is being asked of you, if is to come to the table and listen to what your children have to say and treat them as adults. You know, they're not little kids anymore in the situations where this is happening. So really listen to what they have to say. And I'm sure a lot of them are genuinely asking with all of their heart. And I'm speaking on behalf of millennials here. They're just asking to be accepted. You know, they're asking for you to hear them. They're asking for you to just be like, okay, I can hear you. I may not understand you, but I.

At least can can hear you.

You know that sometimes those things that are hardest to say can be the most healing. And this isn't some scary thing that new parents need to be terrified that their kids are going to grow up and cut them off. Because if you make the changes that we've talked about today, that's not even going to be in your future at all. You know, this is a very easy thing to prevent from happening. It's just that we have not, as a society, learn these skills and tools that are necessary to have healthy relationships with anyone, anybody, let alone our children. So that's why this is happening. It's not some big, scary black cloud that's floating over future families. It's because there's a genuine problem and we have the solution. That's the good news.

Absolutely. And just to retrace, our parents thought the same thing about us when we started getting divorces at an alarming rate. And it started to pick up and crazy thing. Yes, yes, yes. Like, there was something in the water that we were drinking. And all of a sudden and everybody was going in this relationship.

I think it's just also a great confirmation that we have to realize that all of life is it's energy, right? So it's evolution. Nothing stays the same. And so what require all of us to realize we have to raise our game, if you will. We can't continue. And I know people say, look, no, you're advocating, we're going to throw out.

No, you don't have to throw the.

Baby out with the bathwater. But you have to come at it from a different place at different skill sets, different approaches. At the end of the day, again, we say this too. Everyone wants to be seen, value and appreciated. Just remember that we all, we are all longing for that because we're human. And those are fundamental human needs at the highest level, those three things right there.

And nobody likes to be forced. Yes, Just think about somebody who's trying to force you to do or say anything as a human being. It doesn't even matter if it's good for you. The more you're forced, the more you don't want to go on and do it. So that happens on both sides. And I know that when our emotions start to spin and spiral up, right, and they sometimes feel unbearable, we feel like we need to have a solution. Solution. Like right now, the conversation. Like right now. And I'm just going to encourage you to do what I call an emotional push up and slow down and give it some space and time, because it's going to only go well if both people can come to the table in that space where they're ready to have a conversation. And so again, don't, don't forget to get that resource that's part of this episode because it has those steps in there. And then, gosh, if you have any questions about it or any shares, we would love to hear from you. Don't hesitate to reach out. I hope. There's two conclusive takeaways here that I just want to remind you of. The first is our opportunity is to build a bigger and brighter future rooted in the principles of human relationships. And this is going to help you avoid grief and regret on both sides. Number two, understanding and respecting individual choices. When it comes to maintaining or severing family ties is the goal. There is no one way for us all to approach that. The needs and the remedies, emotionally and otherwise, are very individual. And there's not just one perspective, there's multiple perspectives. So it's our opportunity to understand those. And that's literally, in my world, what communication is all about. With a hard period, understanding myself first, being able to translate my own thoughts, feelings, experiences and emotions into a language that first feels I can understand. And then I want to give that gift to somebody I say I love. And I can't give that gift if I'm busy defending, manipulating, attacking, criticizing, minimizing, shutting down, avoiding that gift cannot be given. And so our path of progress is learning how to do these principled skills. I hope that helps you. I want to wrap this up by that beautiful quote that you found from a writer. He's a Lebanese slash American. American writer, philosopher, artist.

Yeah, yeah.

Khalil Gibran. And he wrote this quote back in 1923, comes from his book the Prophet. The Prophet. And here's the thing, it's so applicable to today. And so I just wanted to highlight the fact it was 1923 when it was written so we can see this evolution again that we keep pointing to. Right. As Brooks said, there's no mystery.

It's a hundred years ago.

It's exactly a hundred years ago. He says your children are not your children. They are sons and daughters of life's longing for itself. They come through you, but not from you. And although they are with you, yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love, but not your thoughts, for they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies, but not their souls. For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you. For life goes not backward, nor terries with yesterday. You are the boat bows from which your children are as loving arrows as they are sent forth. The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and he bends you with his might, and his arrows may go swift and far. Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness. For even as he loves the arrows that fly, so he also loves the bow that is stable. I just think we are trying to impede our children, and they are living in a world that did not exist when we were growing up. And they are desperately trying to learn from us, their parents, so that they can then navigate the uncharted waters of the future. And now we're arguing about who's right and who's wrong. And we need to let go of this and realize you don't need to impart them with your value system in ways. You need to give them the understanding and wisdom that you have collected so that you can send them forth into places that you will never see. That's our job. I know that's a big topic, an important topic. I'm sure we'll have more conversations about this. So go get a glass of water and we're going to do a harvest hard left. And do a little bit of fun. If by chance you find yourself in a place where you are wrestling with many of the things that we've talked about in today's podcast for our Follow the Fun Moment, I want you to just take a piece of paper or a little note card or go buy a card. Highlight something that you love about the person in your life that you're struggling with right now, and for no other reason than just sending them a note of appreciation. Send something to them that says I appreciated it when or a fun memory that I have of you is and just send it off with no expectation, no attachment, nothing in return. Just send it off because it's something that you feel and know to be true inside of yourself. And then let it be. Just let it be. That would be one of the greatest gifts you can give to someone in your life that you're struggling with right now. Just let them know that you have good memories, that you have good moments, or you do have appreciation for some of the things that they've done for you or can you fill it? Song today. Oh boy. I have to say, it's a Gus thing. God, universe, and spirit. I usually do quite a bit of research to find the perfect song, and this one just popped right into my my sphere of awareness immediately. And it's such a perfect fit for today's conversation. It's a song sung by Meghan Trainor and Teddy Swims Bad for Me. And basically the lyrics version of them are Please don't make promises you can't keep. Your best intentions keep hurting me. I know we're bl but this love is bad for me. It's so good. You can check this song out with our entire playlist by going to our website, or you can find it on Spotify by searching up Love Shack Live playlist. That's a wrap for today. And again, if you have I know this is a big, heavy topic, so if you have any thoughts or questions or shares that come up for you from having listened to this podcast, please reach out to us. We're here to support you in any way that we can. And if you want to roll up your sleeves and get rooted in those important relational principles that we alluded to today and pointed to, don't hesitate to reach out and learn and discover ways that we can support you on this. And at the very least, make sure you take advantage of the resources that we provided you to help you have this conversation or begin this conversation. They'll help you out a lot. That's it for now. Bye bye. All right, it's time to leave the love shack.

But before we part ways, we want.

You to know our door is always open and we'll leave the porch light on, ready to welcome you back whenever you need a dose of relationship wisdom. For more resources and tools, visit us@love shacklive.com to dive deeper into the topics we've explored and find additional support for your relationship journey. Stay connected by subscribing to our podcast.

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Love Shack Live community.

Sam.