#166: The Intimacy Gap: Topaz Adizes Unveils the 12 Questions That Transform Love

In the quiet moments behind the hustle of daily life lies a longing inside of us. A longing for a connection so profound, touching the very essence of who we are. This deep intimacy, the kind that weaves souls together, is the treasure we seek in our partnerships. Yet despite our yearnings, this level of connection remains elusive. Just when we think we've grasped it, maintaining it becomes our greatest challenge. At the heart of it all, the intimacy we desire is not just about being seen, but about being truly received by another. Welcome to Love Shack Live. It's a haven for those yearning to rediscover the profound connection that often seems just out of reach. I'm Stacy Bartley, joined by my co host and lover Tom and our daughter Brooke. And today we're embarking on a special journey into human intimacy where we'll explore explore the nuances of what truly creates this experience for us as humans and unlock the doors into this sought after place. Our special guest on this journey is Topaz Adizes, a visionary whose work illuminates the path to deeper intimacy. Through the 12 Questions for Love. Topaz teaches us that the foundation of deep intimacy is not just about asking questions. It's also about fostering an environment of emotional safety where those questions can be asked and truly heard. It's about reigniting our curiosity about our partners, challenging the misconceptions that time diminishes the need for discovery. In truth, the longer we're with somebody, the more there is to learn and understand about love. So today we're going to uncover the transformative powers of questions. Not just as a way to learn about our partners, but as a means to share emotion, thereby opening up spaces for intimacy to flourish. With Topaz's insights as an award winning filmmaker who has used questions to explore the intricacies of intimacy with couples around the globe. Together, we'll explore how well crafted, thoughtful questions asked in a space of safety can draw us closer than ever before, fostering a connection that is both a journey and a destination inside of itself. So if you're seeking that elusive treasure of deep intimacy, let's discover how strategic questions and unwavering curiosity can breathe life into our relationships, creating a bond that's not only maintained, but deepened with every shared moment.

Hey, thank you for coming. Welcome to the Love Shack.

So welcome to the show, Topaz. And I guess the first curious question that I have on my heart today is would you please provide or share with us how it is the book 12 questions came to be. And then tell us a little bit about your the and project.

Thank you, Stacy, Tom and Brooke. That was a beautiful intro. You've done your homework. That was amazing. You guys are ready for me? I'm ready for you. Thank you. That was beautiful. Yeah. Wow. It was great. My work for the last 10 years has been based on this project called the and. And the and speaks about the space between. Because a relationship is not you or I, us or them. It's you and I, us and them. It's the and that connects us. It's the and that's the space between. My team at the Skin Deep, we're an experienced design studio. We really, 10 years ago, we, we wanted to explore the space between. We wanted to explore the emotional experience of what it means to be alive through conversation. And so we started bringing people into a room together, facing each other with like a low bench or coffee table at knee height where we would put custom made questions for them and they would pull a question to ask it, talk about it. And we would film it with three cameras, one wide shot and then two closeups over their faces. And so at minimal, when you watch our videos, and this went on to win an Emmy and made card games, now the book. But at minimum, you're always watching these conversations at both faces at the same time. You're seeing two people. You're seeing the asker and this answer. You're seeing the one who's listening and the one speaking at the same time. And if you think about our content that we watch, whether it's films, tv, social media, you're pretty much always watching, seeing the person speak, the listener doesn't really have the same ownership of the space. It's as though the one who's speaking has more power or importance. And what we're doing is saying both are equal. The listener and the speaker. The one who's asking the question and the one who's answering. And what we're doing is elevating the connection between them. We're illuminating the space between. We're looming the and. And so we've done that for the last 10 years. It's 1200 couples that we've done of all shapes and sizes in nine different countries. And not just romantic, but also family, friends, right? And then at some point, oddly enough, in one weekend, one week in Nove, remember two years ago, I got two emails from two different editors. One in Seattle and one in New York. Like, would you like to write a book? Have you thought about writing a book about? What have you learned? I said, wow, isn't that incredible that it hasn't happened in eight years. And then one week, it just happens. And I went with Jill at Sasquatch Books as part of Penguin Random House, and I went with that because she knew our project. She had been watching our content for three, four, five years. She was a fan. These are the meat and potatoes of what questions work and the structure of them, why it works. How to create the space so that you can have a cathartic conversation that'll change your life, change your relationship, which thereby will change your life.

I love how you say in the book that you wish you could sprinkle talc powder, right, so that we could see what was happening between two people as they're sharing one. Sharing one, listening. And it's fascinating to me on my side, where we did a survey of more than a thousand couples saying, what is the biggest challenges in the relationship space in my own pursuit of intimacy, and what creates it? That special space or that special experience that we have? And they all said communication, the way we talk. And what was interesting is, as you drill down on that, we all know we need to share and we need to have a conversation in order to create it. But the nuances of how to create it is the thing that continues to elude us. And so your work, these questions, there's so much more to it than just the question, as you. Is the essence of your book. Right. And so I'd kind of like to dive into that, if you're willing, and let's walk a person through. What does it take to create that intimacy between us? What are the components of it? And yes, a great question is at the heart of it. So let's start there. The power of a question. This was something that you highlight a lot in your book. Tell us a little bit more about how you came to that realization and about that critical principle.

Yeah, absolutely. But before I'm just going to deviate a second, because in your previous podcast, I remember Tom pointed out, it's funny how we can work on our relationships of other, like, at work and other things, but the familial or the romantic ones, as though it's supposed to work naturally. And Brooke brought up, well, where do we learn how to do it? And that's exactly like, we don't really learn. We learn from basically the relationships in your life. And what's been beautiful about this project is that we've been able to create the intimate, vulnerable space of all these different pairs so that you can learn from them. You could learn from over 1200 conversations and the Power that is like, where do we learn these things? Like what we're going to talk about today? Where do you learn it other than podcast like this that's focused on it or a program. But you don't learn it in school. You don't. You really don't even learn it in family other than modeling. And maybe it's not necessarily a constructive modeling in your family. So I think it's a great question. And I just want to point out that's an important factor that I've been blessed that from childhood I had this pain of lack of intimacy, which created a hunger which had led me to kind of discover this, to find intimacy and then create this, the Ann in the book. And that's the gift that I've been able to offer. And so that's been a beautiful journey to come from that.

I really want to highlight what you just said there. You said something very profound, and that is that the pain is what created the hunger. In our society and in our culture, we hold pain in this terrible light. Like, it's like done, done, done. If you're experiencing emotional pain, that's so terrible, that's so sad, hard, difficult. Yes, I'll give you that. But sometimes I think we don't understand the power of pain and what it can give us. It can motivate us to go much further, farther with more tenacity and resiliency than we could if everything is just fine. And I loved what you said there. Pain is what created the hunger that then had you embark on this project. And I want to emphasize that a minute for our listeners in hopes that if they are having pain, you can see it's not a bad thing, a hard thing, difficult thing, a challenging thing. Yes. But there's good that can come out of those things.

You know, Topaz, you could have ran from it. That's the other option. You could have said, I'm scared of this lack of intimacy, so I'm never going to have it or I'm never going to yearn for it. So turning it and facing it and saying, I want this. That's awesome.

Yeah. And I mean, I have two children, and you can see how different two children are. I mean, even though they're invited in the same environments and even in my own family, similar environments, different choices. And so I can't say why I chose to turn to it, but I know that I was inclined to explore it. Right. And I pursued it and I was passionate about it, and I'm passionate about now. There's nothing that gets me more excited when I feel that sense of humanity that exists between us humans and Deep Project. The end when someone has a profound conversation, even now when I'm watching edits editing it, you see that connection and doesn't have to say that they're saying anything but because you see both faces at the same time, you see how they look at each other and you can see that mutual reflection of each other and they're breathing in this, they're holding each other's space. I really a sense of the greater bit of humanity there and that moves me and I'm attracted to that. And I don't know why per se, but yeah, we can all make choices and, and to the pain. I usually think everyone is unique, much like their thumbprint is unique. And every indentation in the, in your thumbprint is much like the indentations of the experiences of your life, whether they're great or challenging or painful. And that shapes who you are. And it's unique. And even though we have similar experiences and similar sentiments, we're having our unique experiences. And that unique experience, much like it creates a unique thumbprint, it can also create a unique gift that we can all offer. Right. And that's. I think that's something that I've learned from my life but also from watching so many conversations of people or going through some challenging moments. Not all the ant conversations are heavy duty and, but a lot of light and fun and joyful. But the ones where you're witnessing people who are gone through some challenges, whether it's a breakup or the loss of a child and seeing how they ride through that, I see, wow, it's really your ability to how are you framing that experience in such as an empowering way? And that really comes down to a question, right? Instead of asking why did this shit happen to me? You could say, wow, what's the seed that could blossom in this shit? Or how is this the fertilizer for the flower that I'm going to become? What have I just experienced so that I can be released into a new version of myself? What is that? So going back to the power of the question, the question is framing our perspective. It's also framing the possibilities. And I just think we don't spend enough time in our world on the questions. We spend so much time and focus and energy on the answers. The whole world is bred to, to find answers. What are you doing? You know who has the answers gets the paid most. They're the CEO. Da da. What are the questions we're Asking if we change the question, we're gonna be on a different course.

Totally agree. That's gonna change the trajectory of the answer. In your book, you say, put more energy and attention on the question, and you'll find that the answers change. And it's just a really profound idea and realization because it's so spot on. Right. We can be going through the same things or have very different and unique experiences. And the answers that we'll conclude are based on the questions that we ask. Yeah.

Like if you ask, why did she break up with me? Okay, well, there's gonna be. Your mind is built to protect you, so it's gonna do whatever you ask it, and it's gonna come up with 35 reasons why she or he or they broke up with you. If you said, what's the lesson in this breakup? So that I can grow from it? Well, your mind will go, oh, that's what you want. Okay, let me come up with 30 reasons why you can grow from this. So what question are we asking? What question are you asking? Are you asking a question that gives you more empowerment and agency, or are you asking a question that's going to give you a laundry list of things that makes you disempowered and feel more unsatisfied and possibly depressed with the more.

Significant pairings of the people? One thing to say, let's ask a better question if we've maybe lost our job, you know?

Right.

Another thing to maybe ask a different question if, yeah, we've lost a child or. So is it fair to say in your. In the 1200 or. And continuing that. Is that a fair enough assumption? I don't like to use assumption, but understanding. Yeah.

Are you. Are we resistant to asking a better question? Yeah.

The openness to do so wherever the stakes are higher. Yeah. More courage is required. Well said. So for me, I believe that the path to growth is lit by your fears and discomfort. So pursue them wherever they appear. And if you think of any big accomplishment in your life, it was preceded by a moment of great anxiety and fear and which required you to step into discomfort. And maybe it was an hour before, five minutes before, maybe it was three months before. But before you got that award or asked that person out or, you know, whatever it was you did, there was anxiety. And that. And the mountain you stand on that, that sense of accomplishment is the mountain of discomfort, of the fear and vulnerability you had and the courage you did to step into it.

In our body of work, we call that emotional weightlifting. I recognized and realized that the Principle of fear is just such that it is the something we push against in order to expand our emotional strength and capacity and resiliency. Just much like gravity is the something we push against in order to strengthen our bodies.

Absolutely.

We strengthen our intellect by challenging it, learning new things, those kinds of things. So there's this push, pull I'm sure that you've seen in relationships. You mentioned it in your book. That is profound. And may I say, one of the wonderful experiences that I had personally reading your book was coming at this from different angles. My work, your work, we arrived at very similar things, very similar principles. And I just thought, wow, okay, there's the common threads of humanity through us. We can look at it from different angles and different approaches and call it different things. But that, that have to get uncomfortable before we can make progress is such a real human principle that we've all got to get good with.

Yeah. Beautiful.

So walk us through the questions. You have a framework in your book about creating questions and how those questions need to be structured in order to create the intimacy that we're longing for. And you start with non binary. Open minded or not open. Yeah, open mindedness would help. Right.

But open ended.

Open ended. So in the scope of a relationship, it's good to ask what I found to be five different properties of a well constructed question. And the first one is don't ask a binary question. Because there's nothing that can close down a conversation quicker than the yes or a no.

Right.

It's you know, do you love me? Yes, I love you versus why do you love me? What does my love feel like? You know, binary questions, can it be invitations that could be easily refuted? I mean, it doesn't create space for more exploration. So that's one. Another property would be don't ask a question with an agenda or a judgment behind it. Because it's really hard to create the space for someone to step in if you're pointing a finger at them. Right. It's much easier to shake a, a hand that's open, put the palm up than a, than a hand that's got a finger pointed at you. You know, why are you so angry at me? Okay, I mean, that's a fair question. But you know, why do I sense that you're angry at me? And how can we resolve it? Or you know, what, what can we learn from it? Or you know, I sense that you're angry me. Is that just me or how do you feel about that? It's a little bit more open. End more of A gift and an offering and a space. Creating the space for someone to step into than putting them against the wall.

I just want to say one thing that. That what you just said is what we call emotional safety. So you're giving your partner permission and safety to step into the conversation without any preconceived notions or judgment, which, as you just said, totally shuts down the conversation before it begins.

And also, it's not fair to expect someone to respond or to have a conversation as you would like to have it. You know, sometimes you might be incredibly well emotionally articulate and open to these conversations, and I wouldn't be surprised if your partner is not. Because you make a complimentary team.

Exactly.

So to push them and expect them to communicate like you do is not fair. And that's also not creating space. So coming to it, the conversation in general, part of creating the space is we're gonna have this experience. We're gonna have fun, we're gonna explore. You be who you be. That's why one of the rules is you don't have to answer the question if you don't want. You just can say, take a pass, look at the other person for 10 seconds, breathe together, take a pass. You don't have to answer the question. You have to give people permission to be who they are. Right? And then when that happens, even more beautiful things come because the unexpected comes out. If you're expecting certain answers to be in a certain way, then in essence, you've written the script for them, and then they're just playing the script. But do you really want someone who's reading the script, or do you want someone who's fully there and present and being whatever they're being? Isn't that more beautiful? Right? So the third part would be much like we were talking about how the question can shape the answer. Much like a race is shaped by the race course, it's on a question. An answer is shaped by the question is asked. So let's ask constructive questions. Let's ask empowering questions. Let's not ask, why do we fight so much? Let's ask, what's our biggest challenge right now? And what is it teaching us? You know, where do you think we misunderstand each other? And why. Where do you think I misunderstand you? And why do you think that is, brain? To come up with a list that gives us agency and empowerment versus why did this shit happen to me? Well, okay, 30 reasons why it should happen. Okay. Fourth one would be, let's put things together that don't normally come together is always interesting. It's like creating two nodes in your brain and connecting them in ways that are not normally connected. So an example, like really simple example would be like what is your favorite memory from your worst relationship? That's not in the scope of a, of a relationship because it's like more of one to one. I'm asking you to find out about you. Or, but, but for the sense of simplicity, it's like, you know, what does earning money cost you?

Yeah.

Or in the sense of a relationship, how does our conflict make us better? You know, obvious. You know, generally we don't think as conflict is something that makes us better. So framing the question in a way that's empowering is really helpful. Another one would be another aspect property that's really helpful is putting yourself in the other person's shoes. What do you think I misunderstand about you? What do you think you misunderstand about me? What do you think is the hardest thing being your partner? So then the person's thinking, wow, I have to, I have to put myself in the shoes of my partner. And looking at myself from that perspective. Right. Which is another way of creating empathy and compassion. Because having questions where we put each other in each other's shoes is really helpful.

Well, the beautiful thing that you're using open ended in an incredibly masterful way and the lovely thing about open ended questions is the only person has the answers is the person that you're asking. Right. That's the only place it's coming from. That's why they're so powerful.

Another thing that struck me just now is when we're in the place of space and separation, which a lot of our listeners and clients are right now, it's very hard to have empathy for your partner because you're just looking at all of the pain that they have caused you. But I often encourage our listeners and my parents do too. Mom, two and dad. Making the choice to ask your partner for a break or separation is very hard. That's a really hard thing to do. You know you're going to break your partner's heart. So if you can take a step back, go a few notches back so you can get a bigger view of the situation, it's much easier to have empathy. And those questions that you just said would be so helpful to our clients in the place that they're in right now. Because if you could see it from your partner's side, it would make it so much easier to see why, why things are the way they are. And what happened between the two of you? And I just think we don't think about that very often.

Also, a part of the questions is trying not to in terms of creating space for the others and allowing each identity or each person to have their experience is in the shape of the question. When you ask the question, don't give the absolute or don't put the other person or one person in the position of the arbiter of truth. Right? It's not like, why did we break up? And then that person says, well, we broke up because of this. Oh no, that's not why we broke up. Or that's not why we're taking space, or that's not why this happened. No. What. Change it to why do you feel we broke up? And then that's just our feeling or why do you think you. Why do you think we broke up? That's their thoughts, that's their opinion. And then they're not the arbitrary truth, they're just expressing their own experience, their own thoughts, which there's no argument over. That's how you feel. I'm sorry, you had that experience, right? So in shaping the question, why are we taking a break? Why are we getting divorced? It's like, wait, why do you feel? Just, do you feel, do you think just that tweak creates a space for less confrontation? Because we're not fighting over the, the truth, if you will. We're not fighting. I'm creating the space for you to express your feelings and your experience. And there's nothing to discuss around your feelings and experimentation.

The things that you had mentioned in your book was three possibilities as far as your person sharing one. When I share, it makes sense to you, right? And it creates this bond of intimacy too. When you share your thoughts with me, I understand you a little bit better. But then there was this third option that says when I share and I hear what you're saying and I finally take it in for myself, I say, that's what I said, but now that's not what I believe. And I wanted to highlight this because we don't realize and understand sometimes as human beings that when we share the thoughts and feelings that have been tumbling in our minds, it's the opportunity that we get to pull em out here and look at them ourselves. Right? And that's why sharing or conversing is so life giving to us, because it helps me kind of gain some clarity about all of this that's going on internally for me. And I just, I, I see that happen in my Work where you finally get some clarity about something that I felt like I was so passionate about. But when you say it back to me, I go, yeah, you're right. That's not how I feel at all. Thank you for helping me get clear on that. Let's set that one aside. And there's a principle we call planting our flag which allows us to do that. And where somebody's opinion or differing experience doesn't have to be threatening to you. And if I can find my way back to myself, I don't have to be worried about understanding and opening myself up to the possibilities of somebody else seeing the situation differently. It's not contagious. It's not going to get all over us. We can always find our way back to ourselves. And that sharing that so wonderfully happens with your questions and how you've posed them in the mastery and what you have learned over this decade helps us to do just that and then to be able to not be resistant to, you know what? That is what I said. But yeah, that's not really how I feel, now that I think about it. Just to showcase that's a human experience that we all have. And what can often happen is we'll defend it, right? We think now, because I've said it, I've got to go with it when I'm not even really giving myself the space to like, no, that really isn't what I want. That is what I said, but that isn't what I want.

That's a wonderful aha moment that comes from my very good friend Richard Tripp, who's incredible communicator, but also has a lot of experience working in the tech industry. Between programming engineers and the development team, marketing teams of making software, they have all these different ideas coming together. And he calls it creative listening. And he talks about the three different kind of responses. And the response you point out is the idea that, okay, when I hear you, play it back to me. Because oftentimes when we have a fight first we're fighting because you just want to be heard. Not even about being right. It's like, do you hear me? And when you play back to someone before, even before you respond what you hear them saying, their physiology relaxes. Okay, this person may not agree with me, but they heard me. They played back to me what I'm feeling or saying or thinking, and they got me. They understood that. So you physiologically relax because you've been heard. Now we can move to the next step of discussing further. The next step. And so part of that is. Oh, I heard it back. And giving permission for us to change our minds and we are humans. That the nature of being human is that you are. You have relationships, right? Maybe not many, it doesn't. You have 1, 2, 3, many. Your relationships reflect you back to you. You reflect the people you're speaking to back to them. That's a beautiful thing about being human. And we're all learning at different rates. We're learning at different speeds. We're lifting different things, different nuances, different perspectives. That's a beautiful thing. And so giving each other permission to change your mind. Because when someone reflects you back to you and you're like, oh, that's what it is. Oh, you know what? Now that I see it that way, I don't feel that way. That. Why isn't that legitimate? I think it's because oftentimes we have conversations from our head, and our head is built to protect, but our hearts are built to connect. So don't let the head get in the way of the heart, because the heart is gonna lead you to a richer life. Cause it's more full of emotion, you know, it's more full of the experience of what it means to be human. And I think that is like, do we give her. Do we give each other permission to be who we are? To say how we feel? To say, no, now that I hear it back, it's not what I think or what I feel. Thank you.

I think, especially in today's society, we have lost the ability to change our minds. And we think that we have to be so staunch in our beliefs, both sides of the coin, we have lost the ability to say, hey, I was wrong. I was wrong about that. I need to learn a little bit more. I'm sorry that I was wrong, but I want to change my mind. And now this is what I believe. It's so easy to say, but it's so hard to do. And by not doing it, we don't look at the cost of. Of not being able to do that enough, I think so many things could be solved if we just gave ourselves and our partners and our friends and our family the permission to change our minds.

And that's where I think it's good to make a distinction between, are you in a safe relationship but an uncomfortable one? Let's not confound discomfort with safety. So safety is, in my opinion, and I would love to hear your thoughts on this, because. But my. My thought is, safety is, look, are you in a relationship where there's mutual trust and respect and you're taking responsibility for your actions and your feelings. And you both feel like you're walking the journey together and acknowledging the walk, you're acknowledging the talk, you're acknowledging the response that you both have in. In both. But there's moments where there's uncomfort discomfort. Great, wonderful. Cuz that's a great way to practice. You say emotional weightlifting. Wonderful. Now you might be in a relationship where you feel very uncomfortable, but you also feel unsafe. And then that's a different conversation. But let's not confound safety with comfort. You might be very safe, very comfortable, but you're actually not growing because everything is unsaid and it's just festering there, these kind of resentments or conflicts or. And you're not fully expressing, you're not fully growing because you don't want to rattle the boat. Yeah.

And those going back to those thousand surveys where everybody cited communication was the problem and looking for answers, they would say, okay, okay, okay, come on, just tell me how to say this. Come on, tell me what I need to do in order to help them see me in a better light. Those would be similar questions, different derivatives, but same principle. And it would be, you know what, communication is really not your problem. Emotional weightlifting and the ability to create safety is your problem. Because I could give you all the most beautiful communication frameworks in the whole wide world and I'll tell you right now, you're not going to use them because when your back gets emotionally pressed against the wall and you feel emotionally unsafe, you're going to throw that shit to the wind. And guess what? You're going to resort back to whatever coping strategy you have going on right now to help you feel safe. And so the only way we're going to be able to make progress in this thing, you know, you need to do, which is called talk share, to create the intimacy that we're so driving for is we've got to get better at setting up and understanding the difference of what you just highlighted in your book, which I loved, the difference between feeling safe and uncomfortable. Because in order to grow and expand and work through some of this, it's going to require us to be uncomfortable. You know, as Tom used to say in his bike riding days, you have.

To be good at getting comfortably uncomfortable.

So, so the safety part is huge. And, and that's where we began with all of our work, is how do we create safety? And for us, safety is on this premise of I have permission to be me, think the way I think and feel the way I feel and by nature of desiring that for myself, I must give that to you.

Your distinction there, Topaz is. Is incredible. And I would take the physical equivalent to that was. Are you familiar with what a ropes course is?

Like an obstacle course? Yeah, well.

Well, it's a ropes course, is used in team building, and it. It deals with different challenges at different heights above the ground. All right, so it's masterful at doing in the physical space what you just described. So you're safe, but you're very uncomfortable.

Right.

It's renowned, known around the world. I've done it two times, and it scared the living. But Jesus out of me each time. But tremendous, you know, feeling like I've. I've gained some mastery because you're very. You're always belayed in. You're not going to fall to your death, but man, you sure feel like it, you know? So I would think that'd be the physical equivalent to what you just described.

Look, every time my wife or I Or anybody I know, but generally my wife and I, we talk about it, if there's something that she really doesn't want to do or she doesn't want to have a conversation or really want to go somewhere or the same with me. I mean, this is how I view it. When I have that meeting I just do not want to do, or that conversation I do not want to have, then like, great, awesome. Because I know on. When I lift that stone, on the flip side is a great lesson for me, and I tell her that. But now the key is, in my opinion, what I've learned is when you go into that space and you're like, okay, I'm having this meeting I really don't want to have. I'm having this conversation. I don't really. Or whatever it is, you don't necessarily have to do anything. You just have to be in it. And what I mean by being it is feel the emotion. Feel the emotion and breathe through it. Like, we're so productive oriented in the west that we have to do things and result oriented. Just like an image is worth a thousand words, right? An emotion is worth a thousand thoughts. So instead of spending time on a thousand thoughts, just feel the emotion. You'll process the thousand thoughts. And what does that mean? It means breathing it in, letting go. I mean, the point of meditation is not to not have any thoughts. The point of meditation is to learn how to let go of thoughts, which is great practice for letting. To let go of emotion. And when you let that emotion come through that. Uncover. Ooh, where is that? In the stomach here, where I feel the fear. Okay, wait. Breathe through it. That alone is practice. In my experience, in my life. By doing that, seeds are laid and the results will come. Things will come out of that, and they don't have to necessarily come at the moment because that's a lot of pressure. And then you're also engaging with your head because you're thinking about results, and that moves you away from feeling the emotion. Sit in the emotion, breathe in the emotion, let it go. And that'll process. That's a much quicker way to process a thousand thoughts than racing your head. And then. Okay, I'm gonna go through the thousand thought list, right?

Yeah.

That's just how I see it.

Well, if you'll become what Stacy calls a hot mess.

Yeah.

Yes, you will.

But it's great practice, right? Emotional weightlift. Okay. I'm feeling, you know, I can have a conversation and. And my brother can say something that really hits a nerve. My wife can say something. A colleague at work.

Ooh.

Oh, I'm not. Okay, where's that? I'm noticing that pain here. Okay, let me breathe through it. You can even articulate. I'm noticing a lot of vulnerability here. I'm feeling this. Thank you for pointing that out. There's something. Let me sit on that for a sec. I don't need to defend it, because the more I push it out, then it's just going to. That means it's going to be a bigger force that's going to come later. That's going to force its way in. I mean, that's another conversation. But the more we push it away, the more effort is going to take for us to just breathe through it.

As you eloquently pointed out earlier, Topaz, most people who are extremely vulnerable and comfortable doing that are paired cosmically with someone who is the opposite and doesn't like being vulnerable and is scared of talking about their emotions, which I'm sure you've witnessed many times in the 1200 people that you've watched have these conversations? So my question is, do you have any tips that you share with people who feel really uncomfortable expressing their emotions before you start filming? Do you have any tips that you share with them to get more comfortable or to be more open or.

Oh, on set, I. I tell them, the space is yours. The space is yours. You could be who you are. These are the guidelines, the rules. And people feel comfortable with rules. Right. I mean, it's really hard to play a game with someone if there's no rules. Cause you don't know. But if there's rules. Okay, here are the guidelines. Okay, great. These are the boundaries. Great. And then I said, the space is yours. And then it's their relationship. And. Yes. You know, I think sometimes when a director calls me when they film the end, they go, oh, Topaz, it's. It's not happening. They're not crying. They're not having these say, hold on a sec. That's because you don't have an expectation of what should be. And it is what it is. And what's beautiful about the end is when we have both faces. You see both faces at the same time, and you're elevating the listener and the speaker on the same level. It doesn't matter what they say. You see it on their face, and it actually doesn't even matter. What for the viewer, I'm saying, I mean, for the participants, they're having their experience, and it's amazing. For the viewer, when we watch this content, you're having your own conversation. You're wondering, what is that person gonna say? What would I say if I was in their shoes? What would I say if this was to my own partner? And so regardless of what actually happens on the camera, the space is created for exploration. It's happening. So even if your partner doesn't articulate in the same way you wish, practice accepting them, the fact that they're doing it to begin with, sitting there with you is honor enough. Let them be who they are. Maybe your practice is that we have an expectation of how it should be. So maybe this experience is for us, much like their is. The experience for them is to practice emotional articulation. Maybe the practice for us is to practice just acceptance and just gratitude for the space that we're in. And you'll be surprised at what could happen when that person feels that you're accepting them. Maybe they'll start coming out a little bit. Maybe they don't come out because you're so forthcoming. You know, I know that for a long time, and it's in the book, but I was chasing partners who are running away. And I could be effusive and emotional and, you know, and then when they would stop, my good friend Anitra said, she's like, topaz, what would happen to you if they stopped running and they stayed right there and allow the intimacy? Guess what happened? Topaz would run away. I would choose partners who did not have intimacy so that I could be intimate. But God forbid they stop and they're willing to be intimate. I would run like the wind. Yeah. So let's not judge each. Right. Yeah. What. What I think is key is. Look, the key is not to get to the results. The key is to have the experience and be in it, because you can go to therapy, which is great, can work. God knows I've done it. But in that space, the therapist is the referee. The therapist holds a container. The therapist asked the question. Here you both are asking the questions. You're both holding the container. So regardless of what happens in the container, you're practicing holding the container. You're practicing holding the space, listening to each other. And that's more valuable than necessarily anything of the particulars that are happening inside. Does that make sense?

100%, absolutely. It is not about what I think. It's not about what you think. I say a great relationship is great because it works for the two or, you know, more people in it. I mean, however you want to set it up, this intimacy container. Right. Make it your own and make sure that there's the space and the permission for you to be yourself in it.

But I think that you just highlighted a problem that so many couples have, is that they think their partner needs to be expressing their emotions or their feelings or their affection or their love in the same way that they express it. And if they don't, they think there's something wrong with their relationship or there's something wrong with their partner, or there's something wrong with them because their partner isn't showing them the love in that way or talking in the way that they talk. And I love what you said. Just accept them. Or maybe they're scared to do it because you're so good at it, and they're like, I don't want to mess this up, but there's nothing wrong between the two of you. You're just not allowing each other to be who you really are. And if you do that, it could be magical.

Yeah.

I was going to take us to something you mentioned as we wrap up here and come to the close of our conversation, which is deep listening allows you to truly take someone in. And when I read that in your book, I literally had to just sit in my chair for a minute, and I went, oh, my gosh, Topaz, you've nailed it. That is truly what happens in the space of intimacy. From what I experience and have the honor and privilege of witnessing every single day of my life. When I work with couples and help them find this place between them. I thought that also makes sense. In regards to why it is I have to have the space inside of myself, essentially, the ability to take myself, and otherwise, there's no space to allow somebody else to come within me. I'm too defensive. I'm shutting it down. I'm too confused. It's too chaotic. I can't make space for you because I can barely make space for myself. And so I thought that really resonated with me. Deep listening allows you to truly take someone in. And I went.

Well, I.

To me, I instantly went to. It's the space between the notes that makes the music.

Right.

So you've just described that. And we cannot listen unless we're grounded and good with where we are. Or I can act like. And my head can be moving, but I'm a million miles away. And I take full responsibility.

I do.

I'm a fast processor. And multitasking is a myth. We really can't do that. Right. So to be fully present, I say, is really like the gift that you wrap up. That is, I think, the greatest gift any of us can give to a fellow human being. Because at the end of the day, we all want to be valued, appreciated, and know that we matter, you know?

And I agree. And then if you're wondering, well, okay, great. How do we be present in the conversation? Yeah. A great way to do that is just pay attention to your body. So they're speaking. They're speaking. You're looking at them. Your mind is going to be processing how to respond. Maybe because you want to defend yourself, maybe because you want to win the argument, maybe because you want to sound smart. I don't know why. Right. Whatever the reason is, it's doing its job to protect you. Take the focus off of that and focus on the body. Okay. As they're saying this, how am I feeling? Is feeling to listen. Okay, that's interesting. My lower back. Little pain. Or that. Ooh, I feel little butterflies in my chest right there, you know, in the diaphragm. Or my shoulders are getting. Okay. Hmm. And then when they finish, take a moment, take a breath, feel the body, and see what message comes up, sees what resonates. Right. And if you're in a space where we're giving each other permission, we're not looking for the final solution or the answer. And you're not asking questions where you're saying, who's the arbitrary truth. It's an exploratory conversation that is taking us deeper. Like, wow, okay. And don't respond from the head, because oftentimes we respond from the head a defense mechanism or whatnot. Or we're doing a societal programming. You know, this is just. How's your day? Fine. Great. What's the weather like? Good.

Right?

But feel the body. Just tap into the body. The. The body's the hardware for the software of our systems. Right. The software is the emotion. Hardware is the body. In my opinion, I find that that's a great way. And sit there and then see what comes up and then respond from that spot. I love that.

I love that. You gotta get Topaz's book. His questions and his principles are profound. The building blocks for creating incredibly masterful questions about having the conversations that we need to be having are incredible. And he also talks about how to create the space. Right? How to set up the space so that it's conducive to dropping into your body and feeling your heart. I thought it would be great. I want to. I'm going to end with some words for your book, but I also want to reach back to you, Topaz, and say from the body space that we're probably. I'm in. You know, I just am so grateful for the opportunity to share this space with you. I think the work about intimacy is very valuable and important. I think it's something that if we're not careful, we'll lose the ability to find our way back to. And I feel like you're a fellow traveler on that path with me, so thank you. It's been an honor. So before I close the show out with some beautiful words from your book that I want our listeners to hear, I want to ask, is there anything else that you feel like you would like to say, you know, before we say goodbye? For now? Not forever, but for now.

Are you kidding me? I love love shack. This is. This feels great. I love this place. And I feel you, Stacy. I feel you entirely. And I. I'm smiling. People can't see, but I'm smiling with a huge smile as you sat in that emotion. Because I feel very grateful to share the space with three of you. And I agree with you. I think it's important work that we're doing, and we shouldn't shudder away from the discomfort of feeling emotions, because that's what it means to be alive, in my opinion. Human, in my opinion. So thank you, three for. For the space that we've been able to share and you guys created for us to share together. Thank you.

And where can people find your work and connect with you? We want to make sure that's highlighted as well.

This. The skindeep.com is a great way and social media channel, the Skin Deep.

I have a.

My own site, topazdes.com but really all the work and the platform and the content sold on the skindeep.com My team and I, so. And then the book is available everywhere, Amazon, ebook, audible, the whole thing.

The name of the book is 12 questions. 12 questions.

I have one last question. What is one question that you wish couples would ask each other, but you don't see them doing it?

I'm going to steal this from Esther Perel because I just saw it like last week and I thought it was a really great pivot. And oftentimes when people are in a fight, they say, what are we fighting about? Said, what if we change it? What are we fighting for?

That's right.

What are we fighting for? And I thought that's a great pivot that, you know, I wish I could claim it as my own, but Esther's got it.

She's a wonderful person in the space, so.

Wow. And you've got many more questions that would. That would be a good runner up.

Well, I. I have one that I like to ask, which is if you had a crystal ball that could tell you the absolute truth. No, you know, unequivocal truth. If you had a crystal ball, that would tell you the unequivocal truth. Well, would you ask it? And what would you never ask it?

That's really good.

It's really good.

I love that.

So, as we wrap up here, I want to share some words from the end of Topaz's book that really resonated with me and I think will resonate with you too, he says. So rather than asking the question, is this the person I want to be with forever, ask, is this the person I want to spend the next few chapters of my life with? Someone with whom I can embark on a journey of growth and learning that will enrich us both until the chapter ends. Now, that's a question to be proud of, one that honors the truth in all of us, the truth in your partner, and the truth in the universe. Because every chapter ends. The only constant in life is change. And the only sure thing about it is that one day we'll die. However, I can't think of a better way to spend the time we have on Earth than consciously building intimate, vibrant, and meaningful connections with the people that we share with the time that we have. Doing this is fully brave, vulnerable, and it's what makes life worth living. It can even make that moment of confronting the reality that all things end. A sweet and beautiful experience and it so true at the human heart of us all. So, Topaz, thank you so much for being here and I hope to have many more conversations with you and I'm having lots of creative thoughts about how to bring you into my community that perhaps we can explore later.

And we have one more remember you before we we started recording, you asked Topaz a question that he's been mowing.

Well, I know, but before that, I want to share one of Topaz's questions for our follow the fun moment here. We're just going to continue here to the end. Follow the fun moment is of course, it's got to be powerful questions. Right? So the first question I'm going to give our listeners, if that's okay with you, Topaz, about how does she share these questions? The first of the 12 questions in the book are thus. And I am going to encourage our listener to set up and explore it with your partner or think about it for yourself. What are your three favorite memories we share and why do you cherish them? Let the sharing begin. And yes, every week for our episodes we choose a song because in addition to communication, the other way to feel the essence of what it is we're trying to experience as a human being is through the lens of music. And I have asked Topaz.

Well, I would just wanted to have Topaz realize when Stacy said we, I think Brooke and I would say it's not we. Stacy chooses the song. So you are being shown Topaz a very big responsibility because this is not a Stacy's very cheeky wait. And I don't know what song she's going to choose.

Yes, that's true. So we've, we've burdened or extended an invitation, however you want to look to it Topaz today. And he's going to choose our song. What is a song for you that causes you to feel the emotions of intimacy?

Wow. That's right. I'm going back. I'm going back to like you can go Chicago. I'm going back to. Yeah, Chicago like, you know, or like, you know, like I've just going back to like senior year of high school. You have my heart broken, you know, breaking up with the high school sweetheart because you're going off to college and you're driving the car and you're playing that song. It's like, I don't know which bad but like Chicago, you're just like crying in the car and like stopping the light. You could barely see the red light turn green because you're just like, I can't believe I'm leaving her. Like, I love her so much. Like, I'm never gonna say that's what I'm thinking about. And then who has that song where it's like, I would walk down to your door 5.

500 miles.

That's the one. That's uplifting version. That's the uplifting version. Like, you'll. That's a good for love. Yeah.

Yeah.

That's a good song.

I like that song. I knew you'd knock it out of the park.

There's some emotional push ups there, man. It's beautiful.

Truly been a pleasure, truly, truly sending you tons of love from afar in the universe. I wish we were in the same space and I could wrap my arms around you and say thank you so much for the work you do and the presence you are in the world and. And all the courage and emotional push ups that it's taken to get there and do it and cheering you on. Thanks. Appreciate you a ton.

That's great. Thank you.

Bye bye for now.

Take care.

Not forever. All right, it's time to leave the love shack.

But before we part ways, we want.

You to know our door is always open and we'll leave the porch light on. Ready to welcome you back whenever you need a dose of relationship wisdom. For more resources and tools, visit us atlove shack live.com to dive deeper into the topics we've explored and find additional support for your relationship journey. Stay connected by subscribing to our podcast. Thank you for being part of our Love Shack Live community. Sam.