#210: When Your Avoidant Partner Needs Space: A Story of Coming Back to Life

Have you ever been in a relationship where you desperately desire connection, but something inside you says you gotta pull away? You know you crave intimacy, yet convince yourself to just go ahead and push it aside? It's not that you don't care. It's the caring feels overwhelming. Or maybe you're on the other side of this conversation. Have you ever wondered why some people withdraw even though you know they love you deeply? Welcome to Love Shack Live, the podcast for those standing at the crossroads of their relationships, grappling with conflicts and and yearning for bonds that last. I'm Stacey Bartley, a relationship mentor who's been helping couples rewrite their love stories for more than a decade. And I'm joined by my co host and lover, Tom, and our daughter Brooke. Together we guide you through the complexities of love, offering clarity and tools to help you gain new skills as you navigate your journey. Today we're diving into a topic shrouded in judgment and misunderstanding. Avoidant attachment avoidance are said to be uncaring partners and incapable of love. They intentionally choose to play games of manipulation and desire to be alone. Guess what? Nothing could be further from the truth. Today we offer you a very rare experience. A conversation with the person who believed himself to be avoidant, but today no longer identifies with the label. Is that possible? Can someone really move from feeling avoidant and actually gain the ability to experience deep connection instead? My answer to you is it sure is. And guess what? He's here to tell us all about it. In today's episode, we'll be exploring the roots of avoidant behavior. Debunk some myths that cloud our understanding, and hear Mason's inspiring journey of self awareness and transformation. Together, we'll uncover how avoidance isn't about rejection, but survival. And how healing for all of us begins when we dare to face our fears.

Hey, thank you for coming. Welcome to the Love Shack.

So joining us on the Love Shack today is Mason. He's a graduate of our love and limbo 30 day roadmap. Now a Roadmap mentor and an active member of our Better Love Club community. Mason once identified as an avoidant person, but has since courageously transformed his relationship patterns and is here to share his journey with us as he offers us some understanding on how often judgments and labels can be such a deterrent and a derailment for those of us who are experiencing this. After all, nobody can share the journey better than someone who has actually traveled it. And before, we welcome Mason to the show. For those of you who are maybe not familiar with what attachment Theory is I'll just give you a tiny, tiny background so that you can be a part of the conversation today. It was actually developed by a gentleman by the name of John Bolby. He expanded this idea that we must show up in relationships and attachments in our relationships based on how we were raised by our caregivers. This work was actually expanded by Mary ainsworth in the 60s and 70s. The theory explains, or attempts to explain how early emotional bonds with our caregivers shape our social and emotional and relational development. The four primary attachments that we love to talk about in this day and age, of course, our favorite and preferred, which is secure. This means I'm comfortable with intimacy. I'm comfortable with autonomy. And this suggests that our caregivers while we were growing up were actually very consistent and very supportive. The second one is anxious. And an anxious attachment style would be fearful of abandonment. And this suggests, in theory, that inconsistent caregiving was actually what was norm. And then the third is avoidance, discomfort with closeness often linked to emotionally distant caregivers. And four is disorganized. It's a mix of anxious, unavoidant behavior believed to be stemming from our traumas or unpredictable caregiving that was kind of all over the board. Now, it is believed that attachment styles often persist into adulthood. And yes, they can absolutely inflict our romantic relationships, our friendships, our perceptions of ourselves. However, please know this, listener. I feel like this is my big disclaimer. You are none of these labels. You might be experiencing some of these things emotionally and behaviorally in your attempts to cope with life and the unknown, but you are far, far, far from being this thing. And I also want you to understand that we don't arrive at any of them and then are permanently sequestered for the rest of our lives into this place of being. As you're going to hear today. These are emotional experiences of coping that we absolutely have the power to change. And what we often need is some self awareness, some skills, some learning, and somebody to walk with us through the journey in order to go through different faces and spaces and experiences in our lives. I personally, I've done all of those and will probably do them again in my life based on what I'm coping with in my life. And so will you. So I don't want you to think of these things as set it and forget it. The most misunderstood of them all is avoidant. Well, I mean, because, well, they avoid the conversation.

Why?

Why do they do that? Well, that's what we're going to dive into today. We're going to focus on this one part and piece of attachment theory, and we're going to just if by chance you are in a place of feeling this way and coping, or if you're madly in love and trying to figure out how to support somebody who's struggling with this element of coping as well. Some myths that are not true about avoidant people are they don't care about others. Not true. We'll talk more about that. They're emotionally cold and incapable of love. Absolutely not true. In fact, they care probably more than most. That's why they find themselves in this situation. They're intentionally hurtful with their games of manipulation. Now, unfortunately, those games of manipulation are coming from a place where they don't know what else to do. And the last one that I'm just gonna touch on is they can't change or be in healthy relationships, which, again, absolutely not true. They do not prefer being alone. It's just where they can make sense of the world and the experiences that they're having. So, without further ado, let's bring Mason into the conversation. Mason, welcome to the Love Shack. It's so great to have you here with us again. I want you to know, from the bottom of my heart, this conversation might be really hard to get through because I care about you so much and I'm so proud of you. I so acknowledge all that you done and your courage to be here and have this conversation with us today. Man, I am just so inspired by you, the person you've become, and the journey that you've traveled. So thank you so much for your willingness to come here and share it with us today.

Well, Stacy, Tom, Brooke, thank you so much for having me on the podcast. Being a listener for over a year now and in the Better Love Club for over a year now as well, this is a dream come true. And also, the feeling is mutual with. This might be a hard conversation for me to get through emotionally because there's a lot of peaks and valleys and a lot to divulge, but I'm happy to share and excited to share. This, I feel, is very misunderstood and misrepresented in the community. And you nailed it because it's not really something that we have someone to talk with about because avoidance, avoid. So, yeah, excited to help debunk this.

Love it. So let's just start with where the journey began for you. Let's talk about what the avoidant attachment experience is like for the person that's actually going through that. And let's start perhaps with a question about what did it feel like for you to feel or identify with the idea that you were emotionally and mentally avoidant, that you were pulling away and checking out?

Sure. So the feeling that I get when I think about what it was like to be avoidant or to be in that moment of avoidancy, it's like being in a deep, dark hole and there's no light down there. You were all by yourself. You're looking up, you know, this hole, and you might see some light, but it's not really shining in. And it's just so dark and empty. And it's the kind of dark that's suffocating. Then you don't feel like there's any way out by yourself and that also no one can help you. You just feel so misunderstood.

What were the fears and beliefs that you were saying to yourself or that kind of drove that experience of feeling like you were in the darkness?

Yeah. So the fear of being perceived was a big one. Feeling like you can't be understood that someone's not going to understand my perspective or my story and that I'm wrong for feeling the way that I might be feeling and not really knowing how to articulate what you're saying. You feel like you're saying the right words, but the way that they are being heard by the other party are getting misconstrued potentially. And that's maybe because you as yourself, don't understand how to properly articulate it. But definitely the fear of being perceived, I think. And the fear of rejection is a big one too.

Do you think there's also any protection, like you're protecting your partner by not sharing that stuff? Like you're making their life easier by not having them deal with it.

Oh, sure. I mean, I don't want my partner to be in that deep, dark hole with me if I don't think I can get out myself.

Yeah.

And if they come down here with me, then how are we going to get out?

Yeah. I can also see the catch 22 that happens because maybe those moments where you feel like you're going to brave it and try and explain or express how you feel then only to feel more misunderstood. And the more misunderstood and avoidant feels, the more they're going to shut down and collapse. Because that's kind of the emotion that's driving the whole belief in the first place. And so when people start to say things like, you just, you know, get me or what you're doing is wrong and. And you feel misunderstood yet again, rather than go through the exhaustion of Trying to explain it and set the record straight, you just kind of retreat.

Yeah, I, I almost like to think of it as also as the wizard of Oz, but kind of in reverse. It's like the black and white part of the wizard of Oz where there's no color, everything's kind of dull, there's not really a lot. There's like a motion going on and you see some spark, but everything just feels so faded.

What kinds of beliefs in addition to your fears, any other conversations that are kind of going on in your head? And in addition to that, are there any specific experiences that you feel like kind of drove you into that place? Or is this something that you feel like you've kind of been wrestling with for a long time? Curious as to how you see that? Is it a long term thing as you look back, you know, over your young adulthood into becoming an adult? Or is it something that was onset by something in your adulthood life?

So my parents divorced when I was very young. I was seven years old. Came home from school one day and got the news that my parents were separating. My brother and I moved in immediately with my stepdad and my mom, who I love very much. But at that time, young age, it was very difficult. I didn't understand, didn't know how to process, didn't really feel like I had an opportunity to try to process those emotions and those thoughts and feelings I was having. Did try counseling at a young age. It wasn't a good fit. I'll just leave it at that. I believe that was. It might have been eight or nine when that occurred. And then after that, you know, going into high school, having a lot of relationships with my girlfriends that I had at the time, even my friends, the fear of that rejection was always there. And I can't say for sure if it was because of the divorce and that rejection that I may have felt from that. But that fear of rejecting and being perceived was very difficult for me and gave me a lot of social anxiety. Something I don't think I realized at the time. But it's very apparent to me now. Looking back as far as intimate relationships, I'd say I started recognizing it in college that, you know, things would start off great and it'd be like the colored part of the wizard of Oz. This is fantastic. I love this. I'm running around in this colorful land and it's so bright and beautiful and there's all these great lovely creatures and good times and then it goes into this black and white or you go into this deep, dark hole and you pull away and you're not really sure how to share or process that with someone else. You just know that you don't feel safe, that however you try to approach something or share something or do something with your partner, it didn't feel like enough. It didn't feel safe. And I think the first one I had of that, I didn't really register in my brain that that was going on. Looking back now, it's very obvious. The one right after college, I think that was for three years, maybe four years. That's where it really started to kick in. Of I started seeing these patterns of, oh, this is a lot of fun. I'm. I'm enjoying this. I really love this person. And then the closeness started to become wary to me. And that would happen about a year and a half in, I think is what the year and a half to two years is where I was starting to feel like I don't feel safe. I don't understand why. I know I love this person. I know I want to give them all of me. I don't know how to give them all of me and keep myself. Luckily, after that one, that girlfriend and I split up. I had my dad and my stepmom to fall back on. I lived with them for a while, and, you know, I got to have a lot of great conversations with my stepmom about it. I'm very thankful that she was there and my dad. But then this last one was one that really kicked it into high gear, and I recognized something's going on here. If I keep having these same things happen, I have to be the common denominator, and I need to find out what's going on.

For me, I think what you've said is so incredible because there's so many misunderstandings about what the person is actually going through and what their struggle is. Even though it's impacting everyone around them, we sometimes forget it's also impacting the avoidant person. Everybody's hurting and everybody's struggling, and everybody's trying to cope with this in the best way they know how. I think it's really important that the more our struggle grows, the more grace that we hold for ourselves and for others, knowing that there's a lot of things we just don't understand that are at play. I don't like labels because the minute we can start labeling ourselves or each other is the minute that we can start mistreating ourselves and others, which only exacerbates everything that we're already struggling with. Right.

I Think that another thing that people often forget in these situations, which we always like to remind them, is that avoidance or any attack, attachment style who want to change because they see that there's a problem and they know that they want the relationship with their partner, but they don't know what to do in themselves or in the relationship to make it happen or make it work. Think about how many times you've been in situations like that. It can help you humanize your partner and humanize the situation by kind of taking yourself out of it. Like, for me, I always talk about my weight. I want to be healthier, I want to have a baby. I want all of these things that I will get if I could just lose the weight. But for so many years, I was stuck in this terrible toxic cycle of wanting that so bad, but not being able to get it, not being able to do the thing I needed to do to make it happen. And that's exactly the same. But we're so mean and just not understanding when it comes to avoidant people when it's the same challenge. Mason wanted that so bad, but he just couldn't figure out what wasn't working or the exact steps he needed to take to make these changes. And I think if we could just take a step back and realize that it makes it so much easier to have conversations about it.

It's a common myth is that avoidant people don't care or don't want connection. I would love for you to speak directly to those, Mason, what's your perspective on this and why isn't it true?

Yeah, so all humans desire connection. I don't care who you are or where you're from. Everyone wants to connect. And in researching a little bit further about avoidancy and how it comes up and who is more susceptible to it. Not that it can't just happen to anyone, because it can. But there's certain people that are more susceptible to it, and that's highly sensitive people, People that have high emotions, that feel their feelings so deeply, they are very likely to experience this phenomenon. And when you feel your feelings so deeply but don't know how to process them is where you really come into this juncture of, what do I do? If you don't have the skills, you are just going to go into yourself and completely avoid speaking about how you feel because you don't know how to do it. It's not something that is taught. And then if you want to add on being a male to this. And again, I'm not saying females can experience this, because they absolutely can. But being a man, generally in society, we aren't taught. This is how you process your emotions, share your feelings. It's more, hey, just, you know, pipe down, or you shouldn't be feeling that way. You got to stay strong. You got to be manly. It's not a manly feature to share your emotions or to be emotional.

I agree. I say this often, but it's like, where do men go to practice doing that? We don't think of the ability to share and process your emotions as a skill, but it absolutely is. And women, societally, culturally speaking, have a lot of places where they get to practice sharing and talking about and exploring their feelings. And if I get lost on my own, I've got a whole slew of girlfriends I can go and sit down and do that with, and we'll talk about that stuff for hours and hours and hours. Like, we have tens, tens, if not hundreds of thousands of hours practicing that ability to pull out my emotions. I think if that's something that we don't have the ability to do, it can be exceptionally frustrating because we believe everybody should have the ability to do that. Like, come on, just tell me how you feel. How hard is it? Just, oh, so you don't want to tell me, oh, now that means you're malicious and you're manipulative and you're playing games. You don't want to go there and then talk about feel misunderstood even more. Like, holy cow, I didn't think you really got me before, but now you're labeling me with all of these things that are absolutely not my experience. And so I'm just going to keep my mouth shut. And if we don't know how to do it, that's smart. That's the default option of, like, if you're not understanding the limited ability that I have to share with you what I'm really, really thinking and feeling, and then you demonize it and criticize me for it. Well, gosh, now I'm going to really clamp down because you don't really understand where I'm coming from. And I don't want to make it worse because that. That's such a sweetheart message that we go to in the position of shutting down and avoidant because we already feel misunderstood, and I don't know what else to do, so let's just be quiet.

Well, and we get a lot of our cues of what's okay and what's not okay with our partners, not by asking them, but by watching their behavior. So, like, if Mason Was like, okay, I'm going to test it out and be vulnerable this one time. And it's a departure from how you've been your entire relationship. And you're, oh, I'm going to take this big step and be vulnerable. And then maybe you start crying and your partner's like, what are you crying? Like just simply because they're so shocked about it, or they just can't believe it, but they react in a way that's kind of not great. Well, then you're just never going to do that again. But you've never communicated about it, actually. You're just both going off of bad assumptions about the other. Is there anything you remember from when you were in your avoidance space that would have made you feel safer? What's one thing you could have asked for back then that would have helped.

You feel the safety that you were looking for?

My big tip, I think here would be, is all about the approach and coming from a place of trying to understand and making it obvious that you're trying to understand, hey, X, Y or Z happens. This is how I feel about how this occurred. Can you tell me what was going on for you with this situation so that I can have better understand and maybe better support you with this? And just real quick, I'm going to give my ex a shout out on this one. Right towards the end of our relationship, they had this bright idea of writing down their questions so that I could read them. And she even gave me the permission to, hey, read these. And you come to me and answer these when you feel ready, when you feel safe. And I think I took maybe half a day, maybe, maybe a whole day to read these questions and really think about, hey, how do I feel about these? What are they asking? And sat down. I think we sat down and talked for like an hour and a half and went through, I think it was a list of eight or ten questions and I just went right through it.

So having some preliminary notice was very, very helpful.

Yes. So being brought up to speed before the conversation happened was a huge help because it allowed me to not feel number one, not feel attacked. And I have that immediate pressure of these questions right here, right now, or else versus, hey, here's this whole list. Let's talk about it when you are ready.

If you really put that into context of human, wouldn't that make more sense? We've already touched on the fact that sharing my emotions, doing that work, processing them, digesting them down is a skill and it's one that we need to learn and Practice. And so if I'm not really practiced there, have you ever seen a little child that's trying to struggle with spelling or math or maybe us, ourselves as adults? Trying to learn something new in my work environment or trying to quickly get up to speed with this little baby that I just brought home that I don't have any idea what to do with? And it takes longer. It takes more time. I have to sit with it, I have to be with it. I have to contemplate it. I have to try it on and work with it. And that's why it can take more time for people that are in this place of emotional overwhelm to find out and gain some clarity about translating their thoughts and feelings into first, the language that they can understand. So I can so see why that would be such a gift for you, Mason, and so brilliant on your ex's part, on your previous lover's part, because it did give you that space and time to just work it through for yourself so that you could build the confidence and the practice that you needed to finally bring the conversation to the table. I mean, that's. That's really brilliant.

Yeah. It alleviated a lot of pressure. You get that dreaded phone call or text like, we need to talk. What are we going to talk about? A little bit of anxiety might hit at that point. You're gonna be standoffish. Me, personally, I'm gonna back off. Feel like I have to walk on eggshells in a way, but then I don't have time to process. I need that time to back off and feel so that I can show up as my best self and say what I actually want to say versus react.

I was just thinking. And typically, how these conversations unfold is just like you described. We're gonna talk, and you're gonna answer these questions. And when you can't or you refuse to, because you probably don' for more time in processing your emotions, you're just thinking, what's wrong with me? Why don't I know? Why am I freaking out? I don't want to do this anymore. I'm feeling unsafe. I'm uncomfortable. And yet they just keep firing it off. You can see why that commonly leads us to places that nobody wants to go. We just don't know. We don't know on either side of the conversation. The person that's pushing the conversation that seems to think, oh, this should be so simple. And the person who's going to. I'm not there. I'm panicking, and we're going to Hang out in those places, hold on until we just can't take it anymore, and something's going to give. Somebody's going to walk out, somebody's going to shut the conversation down, or somebody's going to, as you said, react and say something they don't mean or threaten or coerce to try and move the conversation that they're attempting to have forward, which will always end in some shit show. Really.

I think it's really important for people to understand about avoidance that they are not feeling all of their feelings and simply not telling you. I think that's the biggest misconception, is that they're processing everything in the exact same way you do. They're feeling all the feelings, they have all the intel in their brain, and they're simply keeping their mouth shut. Like, that couldn't be further from the truth. The reason why they're not divulging this to you is because they are not processing it. They're in as much confusion as you are. And if they weren't, then they would tell you. I think the reason why people think they're so cruel and I hate that they say that, is that they believe they're just going through life just like me and they know they're sad and they know they're unhappy and they know they're keeping it from me. Well, that would be cruel and weird and like, why would they be doing that? They're just hurting the two of you. But no, they aren't. They are confused and scared and trying to protect you and trying to protect themselves, but they don't have the information that you are wanting. They are trying to get that as well.

Well, think of like a computer. I just thought of this analogy. Like a computer, you tell it to open up Outlook, you tell it to open Excel, you tell it to open Internet Explorer, you tell it to open Calculator and maybe three more apps. Yeah, well, that's going to give it a circuit overload. So all those different apps you're trying to open, those are all those different thoughts, feelings and emotions that an avoidant might not be able to know how to process or how to deal with. So that computer is going to shut down, it's going to need a reboot. And depending on how many apps or how many thoughts, feelings and emotions we are trying to process, that reboot time might take quite a while.

Yeah, and I think I want to say something about cruelty here. I want you to think of the cruelty that we do in these positions and places. Not that everybody can't feel the way they feel and be where they are. Regardless of where we are in the conversation, whether I'm processing anxiously or avoidantly, those are the two probably most common. What's cruel is what we think our partner should be able to do because I can do it. And then the cruelty that we inflict on ourselves because we don't feel like we can. And that's where cruelty plays a role in these conversations. And it happens on everybody's parts. If I don't have the ability to get through this conversation and to have a safe place where we can explore and understand these things, then there's cruelty that I'm injecting or inflicting on myself, and there's cruelty that I'm inflicting on the person I say that I love because I think I've got it all figured out for the two of us. That's the cruel thing that we do in human conversations, is we violate that space. That might be true for me, but they might be having a completely different experience. So maybe it would behoove us to understand that so that we can find a place of relating again, to get through to these places of understanding. And we just don't know to go there. That is not the demonstrations that we see. It's not the conversations that we have. And I think it's so important to just talk about that cruel moment for a minute as we start throwing the word around. We've all been cruel in these places and spaces to ourselves and to others, from the lack of not knowing and understanding how to actually navigate through these places and spaces. And as you can see, whether I'm spinning up and freaking out and reacting or I'm shutting down and I'm feeling like I'm in that deep, dark hole that Mason described, trying to protect myself and the person that I love. I just want you to see both are coming from a place of trying to cope with things we don't really know how to cope with. But there are answers and pathways to. To help and support us in those places and spaces. Is there anything before we take a turn to a turning point for you? And I know this was a huge place of, as you've shared, struggle, and there was a lot of fears and beliefs about yourself and about relationships and about others. Is there anything you feel is important to touch on or share before we say, what was your turning point?

No, I don't think so. I mean, you hit. We hit the fear, the uncertainty, the not knowing how to process the overload. I think that Touches most of it.

I just have one quick question. Did any of your partners say, mason, you're such an avoidant? Like, did they label you in that way?

No, I never did get labeled. I did have my last partner ask, where did you go? Like, where's the Mason that I know? Not in a way of like. Like, you're not the person I loved. Not like that. Which was very kind, and I'm so thankful. They just, where did you go? Which actually does lead into a turning point. Good.

Yeah. So tell us about the defining moment or series of events that made you realize that this pattern of coping wasn't necessarily serving you.

Yeah. So first off, my coping mechanism was to come home and play video games. And I would just, you know, come home from a day of work, and after a day of, like, training in front of a class or because I was a trainer for a long time, and even after that, for about a year and a half, I was a recruiter, you know, doing interviews, talking to people all day. I come home, I'd want to just play on my computer or my PlayStation and just turn my brain off. And once the conversation of, hey, I think I need to leave came from my partner twice. That was a huge moment of fear for me. Like, I didn't know what to do. And I felt like anything that I could do at that point, it wouldn't feel genuine. It felt like it would be forced. And I did not want to portray a sense of being forced and have it seem fake from their end. So after hearing the second time with, I think it was like a month and a half timespan that, hey, I think I'm going to leave, or, I think I need to leave, I left, Left. I had to get out because I didn't feel safe. So after being by myself for, I think it was two months, maybe two and a half months, I really started doing a lot of reflecting of the relationship and how I was showing up. Kind of like, you know, you hear those stories of people that, you know, if they pass away temporarily and they're floating around the hospital bed and they see their body, that's how I was seeing pieces of the relationship. Like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe I would just shut myself down like that. Or, I can't believe I was stonewalling, or, I can't believe I was reacting versus responding. And in those moments when I started realizing what was happening or what had happened, I set off to find answers to, okay, this is how I was showing up. Why did it happen? This way and what can I do about it? Because this is not the life I see for myself. I don't want to be that person and I'm not that person, so what can I do?

I love that you had the wherewithal to realize that you are not that person. Did you realize that when you said, I need to make some changes here? Or is that a realization that you're not, never were that person? Is that something that came after you're learning and growth on your journey or something kind of new on the front side? I'm curious.

Yeah. So while in the relationship, it didn't feel like I was doing anything wrong. I wouldn't say I felt justified in what I was doing because I didn't realize it was incorrect. I just did what I felt was safe. The realization of how I was showing up made sense and became apparent to me at that 2 1/2 ish mark after the relationship was over.

Allowed you to be an observer of the situation rather than just being so immersed in it.

Yeah. Being able to distance yourself from it. Absolutely.

But also you weren't sure that the relationship was over. Right. You guys were maybe gonna get back together. Do you think the fact that there was a potential for you and your ex partner to get back together helped you on this journey of transformation?

So it did feel. Since we were in communication, we would talk. I think it was like two to three times a week. We would text as well and maybe have a date, like bi weekly. We get together for a few hours, go for a walk, hike, have a dinner. We actually saw a concert once. I know, twice. And those were really good. Having the hope of keeping that relationship was a huge motivator for me. Once I recognized those patterns of, well, that isn't who I am. Don't know who that person was and why they showed up. They must have shown up for a reason. But now that I have identified these, I'm not going to use them as an excuse. I'm going to use them as an opportunity to do something different. And then having to do it on my own, I actually think for myself, I'm not saying this should be everyone's journey. I think for me and where I was specifically, having to do it on my own with the hope of getting back together was the best way for me. If I could go back and do it with them, 100% would. But that's not the story and that's totally fine.

Well, if you put these pieces together that you've so elegantly laid on the table, you Start to see, well, the reason why I couldn't do it with someone was because I didn't know how to do it for myself first. So how can I give something that I don't have to the relationship? So this is places and spaces where being in a place of separation so that I can reflect as you did, but I'm not in it. Fighting for my safety and my survival is really helpful. And then very often it's a very common story where it's the hope of maybe fixing or repairing the relationship for 2.0 or that gives me the drive and the motivation to maybe take on some of the wrestling with myself, to change, learn skills, change my behavior, really go in a different direction. Like I have all the motivation to do it because I'll do things for others I just won't do for myself. That's just. That's human nature that I think needs to be said in these places. So that's a beautiful setup. That's very common. We wouldn't call it beautiful when we're in it, to be honest.

We call it fucking hell, like the worst feeling ever. There was a tiny little nugget in Mason's first talking about this that I want people who are going through space and separation to hear. Because he said that after his partner said twice, I think I need to leave. He realized inside of him that if he would have stayed and tried to make it better in that environment, it would have felt too much pressure, too much like there's a microscope on him watching every movement. Just think about that for a second. It's not like a growth mindset positive and environment when your relationship is on the rocks and then your partner says you need to change and then you have to do that in front of them. That's so vulnerable and so uncomfortable and like they're watching your every move and they're grading you every time you try something new. So sometimes the space is not to leave you or to go find someone better. It's to get through all the awkward stuff with a little bit of privacy so that he can try on some new behaviors and new thoughts and new feelings with a little bit of space between the two of you. Sometimes it's going to be embarrassing. And when you're an avoidant person that can be so anxiety ridden to have to do that in front of someone no matter how much you love them.

Well, I also didn't want to feel forced to be disingenuous someone I'm not.

Yeah.

As you grade me, I. I'm not willing to do that. And I think we don't see that as a healthy trait in characteristics of human, but it really is. What he's saying is, I want to make sure that what you're asking me to do and what I step in and commit to do is congruent with who it is I genuinely want to be. I'm not just going to do this to please you. Please don't ask me to do that. In fact, I won't, because I have some integrity with myself that I want to maintain. That was something you were being asked to do that didn't feel congruent. So that would be the last thing I want to do, is roll over on myself to please you, because now I'll really be a disaster. And that's true. There was some really wise wisdom in there, whether you knew it or you didn't, you know?

Yeah. I just wanted to kind of reframe it because that could be seen as the most avoidant behavior ever. Like, look at an avoidant, just being more avoidant. But it was so wise and such a gift to yourself, and it led you on this incredible journey that you've been on for over a year now.

Yeah. And I like how you said it took the pressure off because that's how it felt at the time. I felt so much pressure, and I think I even shared that analogy with my ex, like, when it was happening. Like, I think I'm able to answer all of your questions now and able to show up differently because, like, this pressure valve just got released and I don't feel like I'm being watched or judged. I can come to you genuinely, and I'm able to, you know, back off and think and then share once I know how to say it or how to process. Felt really good when I would just.

Stack on what you just described. Mason, whether you're avoidant or whomever, simply a human. What you just shared is really the approach we take in this place of space and separation, regardless where you are on the spectrum, so to speak, or what avoidance style you are. Meaning if we can take some pressure off and maybe for the first time in a long time or maybe ever, that we can truly look into ourself. And most of us, to be fair, wouldn't. Unless probably something like this happens, because that's just how we roll, especially with relationships. It really is a gift. I don't mean to be cliche or like, wait a minute, Tom, you guys don't understand my situation. We do, because we've all lived it. Ourself but you're not going to be able to continue doing what you're doing and have a transformation. Something's got to change.

Yeah. And I want to touch on this gift because I've heard every episode of the podcast up to this point. I went all the way back to episode one up till now. And I remember early on in me discovering you all, you all would say, this precious gift, this precious gift. And I'm sitting here with my stomach and knots, I'm crying. I probably haven't taken a shower in a few days. I'm like, this is not a precious gift. What are you talking about? I feel like crap. But then once you put the work in and you do face yourself, which is what we're talking about here, you have to face yourself. You take that precious gift of the pain and the hurt that you're in to put the work in for you so that you can then show up for your partner and your relationship. That's the precious gift. Gift.

We're going to use that just on a loop right there.

It is the precious gift. And it usually comes by way of. As we were talking earlier before recording Mason through some kind of ick, right? Some kind of difficult, disappointing, heart wrenching gutting of what you thought was happening. So I would say the precious gift also is paying attention to the things that aren't working, aren't serving, aren't life giving. Because we don't want to continue to go in that direction, do we? It's telling us, hey, hello, I need your attention. You're going in the wrong direction. You're not feeling good, right? So we got to do something different. Let's. Let's go in a different direction. Like, where can we find a place of ease so that we can start experiencing more of what is available. It's not that it's not available, it's just we're going in the wrong direction to get it. We're not going in a life giving direction to access it.

It.

We're needing to learn and understand why it's important to pursue the precious gift. And it usually does. Absolutely. Take us will require us to confront our biggest fears, our biggest discomforts, to be self reflective. Otherwise we can't access it. It also requires us to be vulnerable first with ourselves. It's the gateway to the experience. If I can't be vulnerable with myself and I don't want to look at it, well, then there's nowhere to go. Vulnerability is the door to access deep intimacy and connection both with myself and others. And it's kind of like saying, I'm going to be a millionaire, but I don't want to get a job. Well, if you don't want to be vulnerable with yourself and get real, then you're not going to experience those deep, precious gifts that are so available to us all. It's not that there's something wrong with you, quite the contrary. And you're not broken, and you're not that monster that you're believing yourself to be. It's that we need to sit and find those precious gifts with ourselves. And it's usually going to be something that cracks you open that highly motivates you to look at those things. It's going to come through the ick. That's just how it rolls for all of us as human beings. So. And it's totally okay if you ever did. Mason or our listeners are giving us the bird, telling us we're full of shit, throwing a fit, kicking and screaming on the ground. I appreciate that when you're in the throes of it, it's really hard to hear that this might be a transformative, precious gift, but it really is.

I think this is a perfect example of the thing we often say where if you can understand both sides of the story, here we understand more Mason's side and a Zexus side. You can say everything makes sense. This is what we mean by that, where we say, if you look at the behavior of the two people, then everything will make sense. It's not that everything was okay or the pain wasn't real, or it doesn't matter. It's that you can just really understand why this happened. And that also is a precious gift.

I would love to hear you share. What are some practices or habits that have been the most effective in helping you stay emotionally present now with yourself and in your relationships? What are the things that you turn to when maybe some of this emotional overwhelm comes up?

If I feel an emotional overload, or that I might be in a situation that I'm not feeling safe, I will typically sit there for a moment. I'll breathe. I'll do my square breathing. So four counts in, hold for four, and four counts of breathing out. And then in that time, remind myself that you are safe, you are good, and you've got this. That's if it's happening in the moment, right? And if I'm having a conversation and I feel like I need some time, it's not a problem to ask for time. Hey, I hear what you're saying. I really appreciate you bringing this to my attention. I would like to ask that we pin this conversation for now, maybe table it, let's come back to it in, let's say 30 minutes, two hours, maybe tomorrow. But commit to yourself that you are going to come back to that conversation. That will allow you to give yourself time to process. I know that you're hearing an ex avoidance say this is like, well, an avoidance is just going to take that 30 minutes or two hours a day to avoid. That is on them, right? To make sure that they are holding themselves accountable. And for me, that's what it has taken at this point of, okay, yeah, I've taken this time. Let me just decompress for a second. Maybe, you know, go walk my dog. Or maybe I'll turn my video game on for an hour, which I'm not a big video game person anymore, which is the craziest sentence to ever come out of my mouth. But then, okay, I've had my decompressed time. Now let me think about how I want to approach the situation or what I want to say and what I need to ask for in return.

Love that. If I may, I'd want to touch on video games for a minute. What are the pros and cons of video games? And what do you notice from your own experience of using them to cope and check out versus giving you that moment of repose, the monitoring of it. Like, give us a pro and a con there.

Pro and a con. So the pro definitely is if you hold yourself accountable. Hey, I am going to utilize this tool right now, something that I do enjoy to decompress. Let's say I'm going to set myself two hours. If I'm really enjoying myself, can I have another 30 minutes? Maybe an hour? Sure. But then, okay, I've had my time. Put it down, step away. Keep yourself in checks and balances. The con would be if it just keeps going and keeps going and then you do nothing proactive with that time you've set aside for yourself, which would then leave your partner waiting and wanting and possibly in an anxious state, coming as a fearful avoidance or disorganized attachment style. That anxiety is almost unbearable. It's like being sat on by an elephant. You feel so much pressure and you just, you don't know what to do. So think about that. End with your partner because you do love them and you don't want them to be in that state just as much as you don't want to be in this state of avoiding.

I think with any activity there's got to be a level and a place. I just want you to see if this is true for the gaming, where you just can numb out. It's kind of like we take our favorite activity and we do it for so long that then I can just check out. I go numb.

Oh, yeah. There's a recent one for me. It's a game on my phone, and all you do is drop a ball, and then the balls multiply and they get caught into a cup. I was like, I wonder how many balls I can multiply this time. And it's totally pointless. But then I'll play it for like, 30 minutes. Okay, I'm done now. Let me get back to handling whatever else there may be.

Yeah, it's interesting. As humans, we kind of get focused on the one thing that It's a nemesis in my life, that I then start to go, well, that's not okay. You shouldn't do it. Video gaming is bad. Watching TV is bad. Social media is bad. Don't do it. And yet there's a check and balance and all of those things. Drinking too much wine is bad. Too much of anything. Right?

Too much of anything is a bad thing. I mean, heck, you can drink too much water.

Well, and if I may, that discernment needs to come from within yourself. There's nobody that knows it better than you. When you start to cross the threshold of it being too much time in video games or on social media or too much alcohol or too much water or too much of anything, we need to find these places of balance with ourselves. But I loved what you said about thinking about how what you're doing also affects the person that you're in a relationship with. So it's. And if I'm numbing out, well, then what am I avoiding? And how do we need to set it up to feel safe so that we can venture into a conversation to understand? Not solve. To just understand.

Yeah. And if you are just numbing out, you're not only hurting your partner, you're hurting yourself. And the most important relationship we have is the one with ourselves. Something that I was missing out on for a long time, and that was part of the fear of. Of getting to know myself. Am I gonna like who or what I find after I peel back all these layers or pull myself out of this deep, dark hole? Maybe I'm down here because I'm not. I'm not worthy of love. Maybe I'm not worthy of connection or friendship. I'll just keep numbing out. But you'll find as you climb out of that hole that you are absolutely worthy of all of that and more, of connection, of intimacy, of friendships. The only thing an avoidant has to fear is avoidancy itself. You don't get better with avoidancy until you face it. And that means facing yourself.

Is that the hardest part, do you think?

100% facing yourself is the hardest part? This isn't just an avoidant thing. This is an everyone thing. You facing yourself as an anxious, as an avoidant, as a disorganized attachment, or even if you don't identify with any attachment style, facing yourself is the hardest thing to do. But once you have taken that route and turned that corner, you're going to wonder what it was you were ever afraid of. Like, why did I wait so long? Because this is beautiful.

Tell us a little bit about the moment or moments that accumulated for you. I remember. For me, the memory was you coming on a class that we had in our Monday night class and you said, I'm not avoiding anymore. Makes me cry. I don't even remember that person. I don't associate. That's not me anymore. It's not me. And I remember it's like, oh, wow, what must that moment have been like for you? Where you went, hey, hey, wait a minute. It kind of reminds me of the home alone moment as we're coming out of Christmas. I'm not afraid anymore.

That was a perfect analogy. Love that. When I had that click or that realization of, wow, that's not who I am anymore. That person doesn't serve me and they have no place here. It felt so freeing. Me saying it was almost a way of me planting my flag of saying, hey, I am not avoidant anymore and I'm going to own this. You know what? As a matter of fact, I'm going to go the opposite direction in and take what I've learned and keep serving it and pushing it forward. Now, will there be moments of retracting a little bit? Yes. But then you can take, okay, I've been here before. Now. What should I do instead? Now, how do I combat this? To come back to the conversation, to come back to myself.

A couple questions as we wrap up the conversation here. What would you say to others who identify as avoidant right now but want to make a change?

Realize that you are much more than a word avoidant. That is not who you are. You are so much more than that. And there is so much love and light and connection within you. I mean, as we talked earlier, most avoidance are highly sensitive people. So it's very easy for us to, you know, an overwhelm of emotion like we were talking about with the computer and it just short circuits. And in that moment you feel like you have to pull back and you have to reboot and that's okay. Just commit to yourself that you're going to do 1% better each day. I believe someone in our community brought that up during one of our calls. One day he said 1% better every day. And when he said that, I was like, you know what, you're right. I shouldn't be trying to do this all at once. Let me take my avoidant attachment and start tackling it one percent at a time. How can I show up better for myself and for those around me?

I love that. And, and what would you say to the people that love them?

Keep loving them. Keep being patient. Show more patience if you have it within you. I know that everyone has their breaking point and that you have to love and respect yourself. You are in this relationship with this avoidant for a reason and that love is still there. Help them discover themselves again or maybe even for the first time. Give what you can. And also try what my ex did. Write down your list of questions. Hey, I have this list of questions. Whenever you have the capacity, please answer what you can. Just leave it at that.

Come get me when you're ready. And in the meantime, go do what we're asking the avoidant to do. Go get some clarity about yourself. Right?

Yeah.

You need where you're at. Answer those questions for yourself.

And if you're looking for some resources as an avoidant. Where I started was a book called Attached and it walks through anxious avoidant insecure. That was a great resource for me. The first one I came across and the last one, and possibly my favorite was Stacy, Tom and Brooke just happened to be scrolling on TikTok one day, you know, coping, just masking, you know, in my deep dark hole trying to find answers. And what they said just clicked. It was different than the information that was being shared by other dating experts or relationship experts on TikTok or other social media platforms. It just, the way that it was being approached was so logical and so welcoming and warming and no judgment. And that's what attracted me to this team. And then joining the 30 day roadmap. We have one coming up and I'm going to be in it too as a mentor and would love to help whoever I can.

I was going to ask for people who are on the fence joining the roadmap, especially avoidance because you were an avoidant when you joined the roadmap. Roadmap. And I'm sure coming into a place where you're going to talk about your feelings doesn't really sound that great. What would you say to them to explain how, you know, how it helped you and how it's not as scary as it sounds?

And also knowing when you read, you know, what the road map was about? How about like, what's this dang community thing? Like I'm supposed to do that. I could maybe do it with Tom and Brooke and Stacy, but I'm doing it with others like strange speak to that Mason. Because just I, I. Correct me if I'm wrong. That like hey, heck no. Right?

Yeah. So stepping in the community as an avoidant was an interesting experience. I would say for me it may have been slightly different based off of my past and not enjoying, you know, one on one counseling because I just didn't have a pleasant experience. So this was different. And I thought maybe community would be good. However, being in it and you know, speaking up the first time and that fear of judgment or that fear of being misunderstood or why would you even think that way? Why would you even do that? Like those are the things I would think would pop up or you know, Stacy Thomas, Brooke might say that never happened. It was more of a place of can you tell me more about that? Can you explain further or even once it was understood, sharing the what you can do with what was shared versus you're just wrong. And there was no shame.

Yeah, the community part, especially for avoidance, that's a big chasm. And I guess that's why I always get a little touched and emotional with your courage to step in and go there and I just want to save it. You know, whenever we overcome our fears and show up in those profound ways, not only does it build us with self esteem and self confidence, personally, you start to realize there's nothing to be ashamed of. You start to realize that, oh my gosh, my story's so much like everyone else. Oh my gosh, they're anxious. They feel rejection too. Yeah, they do. They just experience it and express it differently. There's so many levels of aha. When we're in a place of community like that, that.

Yeah, that learning from each other. And like I said earlier, that 1% that we heard someone else in the community share, that has stuck with me. And that was probably shared over a year ago at this point. But that's something I live by still 1% every day.

Yeah. It seems like a doable task for all of us, doesn't it? Human first and then all of the things we want to start connecting to or attaching to after that. It's so true. If you by chance are thinking about the 30 day roadmap, regardless of what your attachment style is, know that you can challenge and change your experience and relationships if you desire to do so. And if you do, then by all means consider joining the Love and Limbo roadmap. It happens live where you're daily supported and you get the experience of myself, Tom, Brooke and Mason. He's a mentor in there and a.

Few other wonderful mentors you know as well like Mason, that have had wonderful transformations and are so willing to give and help support you because they can bring a perspective Stacy and Brooke can't. I mean, so we're blessed to have people that have walked the walk and are very much into supporting you. There's certain days where you're gonna maybe feel a little wobbly legged and they can help you walk right through it. There's really nothing like it. There really isn't.

And having the six of us, you know, the three mentors and the three leaders is fantastic. And we are absolutely there every step of the way with you all. I will say the, the great, possibly the greatest part is the other individuals going through it with you. You are all learning together and there's so much support. It's a transformative experience and it just makes me feel so warm inside.

It is. It's a wonderful experience for us that are privileged and honored to travel that journey with you as well. So the next round begins January 5, 2025. Don't miss your opportunity to find clarity and confidence and to build a life that includes incredible toe tingling relationships. And we look forward to connecting with you there. Any last thoughts, Mason? And then I'm going to have you introduce our song today too. Just because it's one that you contributed to the community. So it's only appropriate that you get to.

Any questions that we should have asked you that we haven't.

Yeah. Anything that you wanted to share that maybe we did, we didn't bring up.

If you're looking for a quick resource right now, you could actually find some quick resources on this podcast. If you go Back to episode one for 149 that is anxious and avoidant attachment style and then episode 155, Spacer Chase. Both of these very well lay out the experience of the avoidant and the anxious relationship, which is a very common pairing. So I highly encourage that along with again the attached book, I did the audiobook, but it's wonderful to listen to because you get to hear both sides. And then it also, it doesn't just stop there. It tells you what you can do. Instead though, it's a path. It's not just, well, this is who you are and best of luck to you.

That's my favorite book on attachment too, when I recommend as well. So just wanted to back you on that. Well, listen, our follow. The fun today is I want you to get gift yourself five minutes to just imagine who you are outside of all of your labels. I invite you to close your eyes and imagine for a moment your labels are peeling away like layers of clothing one by one. Imagine them dropped. Whatever those labels are. Things like I'm an anxious or I'm avoidant or I'm a caregiver, I'm a survivor, I'm a hard worker or any of the other labels that you use to describe yourself, just imagine yourself dropping them one by one as you identify them and let them hit the ground and then take a few extra deep breaths right there. Even do the four box method that Mason suggested in that moment and then ask yourself, what's left? Who am I without these labels and roles? What is true for me now? And this is a really great simple exercise to just start touching on who am I outside of all these labels because there's an essence of who you are there that is simply delightful to get in tune with. And then our song, as I had already suggested, this is a beautiful song that Mason shared with our community.

This is the first time ever too. Mason, I want you to know that Stacy has never has she, Brooke, ever given over the song to somebody else. Brooke, can you recall when that's ever happened?

One time we did.

One time we just did recently.

Well, me.

Yeah, me. But then also Joshua, one of our other roadmappers. We shared one of his.

Okay, good call. You're in rare company, Mason.

So, Mason, tell us why you shared this song with the community, if you will, please. And then tell us who it is and what you love about it.

Yeah, so this, I shared this song because it basically sounds like coming back to yourself, feeling who you actually are versus what society says you might be or what these labels say that you are. You are not those things. You are so much more than that. The artist is David Gray and the song is Back in the world. And there's this one particular line that I want to share. So less than San on the beach staring into the reaches of space and time. I'm singing out words, but the voice that I hear, it seems barely mine. But when you're coming into yourself, it feels so foreign, but it feels so wonderful. And then he comes off and says he's back in the world again. Back in the world again. It's. That just rings so true for how this felt for me of shedding off those labels and that shadow being and stepping into the light of who I am.

I love that. You know, and I've never heard you use the analogy of wizard of Oz when it goes from gray and black and white to the color. But. But it does that in the video.

It's a very creative video.

And then as he's singing the lyrics, it turns into color.

Yeah.

And list one last question. Black to color. Why do you suppose that your world would go gray? It would go from being exciting and wonderful and colorful in the beginning and then it would gray out into shades of black and white.

I'll be honest, that's a hard one to answer in my. Where I'm at now, I'm not sure. Sorry. I know that that's a great question and I wish I could answer it. I just. I don't know anymore.

I know historically, for me and for others, it's because I stopped living. I stopped believing that I could. That I was good enough, that I was worthy, that I could do it right, that I was deserving. And so I. I simply stop living and the world turns very gray. But as I pick up that connection with myself and I remember right, because I forgot, the more I start living and getting in tune with just as you said eloquently on the podcast here just a moment ago, it feels so good to hear that gray shadow start to feel like a part of me. And now I feel like I'm back in the world. I'm among the living. I'm not among the dead.

Stony eyed, wandering that town. Something. There's something online in there that has that too. No more trudging around stony eyed like the living dead. Yeah, that's definitely a way of feeling about this too. When you're feeling those avoidant feelings. But once you confront them and start to reconnect with yourself and who you want to be and who you actually are versus I can't do this. I'm not worthy. I misunderstood. No one's gonna like me. That's all fear. That is just fear telling you that you aren't good enough. And you can't listen to that. You have to push against the fear. Because that's on the other side of fear is where hope is, and we all are headed towards hope.

You can listen to this week's song along with our entire relationship playlist by going to our website podcast page or searching it up on Spotify at Love Shack Live playlist. Mason, I just adore you. I'm sending you a big hug and a squeeze of love and gratitude and appreciation for the incredible human being that you are.

Thank you so much. Stacy, Tom and Brooke, you all. I know I would be here if it wasn't for you all, but I wouldn't be as far as I am without you all. The love that your family and the community has surrounded me with is invaluable, and I am blessed to be considered a friend.

Well, we're gonna get to see a lot. We're gonna be seeing a lot of you here because really, look, just step in. I can assure you. You know what? This is going to be an experience, and we understand the hesitation. Hopefully, Mason has helped you maybe just inch a little bit closer. And here's the thing. Just step in. And then we got you. We really do. We have you. We're going to surround all of our digital arms around you. We're going to narrow the place of where we're going to ask you to walk. Because the cognitive overload, correct if I'm wrong, Mason, is just. It's overwhelming wherever you are, the decisions we're trying to navigate. So you have to put those up on the shelf. Stacy likes to say they're not going anywhere. And just gift this time to yourself for these 30 days. And it's going to be, if you roll up your sleeves, transformation will be your friend, and we'd love to have you.

If you have any questions for us or shares or comments or for Mason, don't hesitate to give us a shout out right here, wherever you get your podcast. Otherwise, you can go to our website@staceybartley.com and hit the contact page. And we're here to answer, connect, share. I know Mason would be happy to forward any messages to him as well.

Yes, please.

That's. That's it for now. Thank you so much for being here inside of the Love Shack. And remember, you're not a label. You're an incredible human being who deserves to start living. Remember that. Bye. Bye for now.

All right, it's time to leave the Love Shack. But before we part ways, we want you to know our door is always open and we'll leave the porch light on. Ready to welcome you back whenever you need a dose of relationship wisdom. For more more resources and tools, Visit us atlove shack live.com to dive deeper into the topics we've explored and find additional support for your relationship journey. Stay connected by subscribing to our podcast. Thank you for being part of our Love Shack Live community.

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