#44: How can being adopted affect intimate long-term relationships?

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Eric. We thought maybe you're gonna have to carry on without us. However, without further ad, thank you for being here with us. Today we're going to be talking about how being adopted can affect intimate long term relationships. What effects being adopted has on loving relationships? Come to find out, this was a question that I hadn't even pondered for myself, even though I adopted a daughter many years ago. You would think that that would be something that would be a savvy question for me to think about. But this question was raised after I had the pleasure and the wonderful opportunity of meeting Joy Fisher Griffin, who happens to be adop herself. And the reality is there are approximately 5 million adult Americans alive today who have been adopted. And so it's not something that's discussed often on our journey to love for a lifetime. However, its impact is great nonetheless because adoptees commonly struggle with feelings of loss and grief, problems with developing an identity, reduced self esteem and self confidence, increased risks of abuse, and also struggle with increased episodes of depression and ptsd. These things do create impact in our relationships. And we invited Joy to come on and be with us today to have a conversation as she shares her journey about what it was for her that being adopted, how did that impact her life and how did she work through it. And don't worry, the story has a very happy ending. And that happy ending can be full of joy for you as well. So stick around and join us for this very important conversation. If by chance you're adoptive parent, you are in love with somebody who has been adopted themselves and you find that they're struggling with these kinds of things, we got some answers, we've got some inspiration waiting for you and we'll be right back after this really short break to welcome Joy onto our show.

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Welcome back, everybody. We are your hosts, Tom and Stacy Bartley. Great to have you with us. We have an awesome episode and guest. We're going to jump right into the heart of the matter right now.

Yeah. Adoption. We're talking about adoption and how adoption may be impacting your long term relationships with your lover, significant partner and or if you're a parent trying to love on and support a child that you have adopted. This conversation is for you. We have Joy Fisher with us. She's the author and entrepreneur, an educator of 25 years of experience and after 45 years of not talking about being adopted herself, she debuted her story of adoption and the book is titled Finding a True Story of Faith, Family and Love. And this was just debuted in 2019. She shared her story so that she could help others who sit in silence about their struggles, not only with adults, but to start the conversation with young people, too. She's the author of two bestselling children's books on adoption as well, choosing Joy and Singing with Joy. These books are part of the way that she normalizes conversations around adoption through the Belonging Project, which is an adoption awareness campaign. Stop whispering, she says, and let's talk adoption. Joy also serves as the adoptee and survivor, Survivor team. Yes. Coordinator with Miriam's Heart Organization in New Jersey. And after spending time myself with Joy, she is definitely on a mission to bring awareness to the general community, normalize the conversations around adoption, heal hearts, bridge gaps, help people find their community, identify resources, and erase the shame of adoption. Joy happens to be married, divorced and remarried and is the mother of three beautiful daughters. She has also miraculously created a reunion with both of her birth parents. And as she said in the book, here's to life's new journey with new family and friends. We are not subtracting anyone from the fold, just adding another layer. So, Joy, without further ado, welcome to the show. So great to have you with us here inside the Love Shack.

Yes, the Love Shack. Thank you, Stacy and Tom for having me. Excited to be here. Great introduction. Included so many of the key points of things that I focus on.

Thank you for that. Oh, absolutely. And so why is it we whisper when we talk about adoption? What has been your experience and what is it you want listeners to know about this?

Yeah, I think we whisper because of shame. We whisper because of embarrassment and fear. You know, not many people want to talk about adoption in public. And what I was finding as I was going out and beginning to speak and even in my smaller circles of friends and family that when people wanted to share something with me. They'd come up to me at the end, well, you know that I have it. And they're actually whispering as they're talking to me, such and such is adopted in our family. Now we're standing in a room. They're still whispering as they're talking to me. And I'm going, okay. And then it just started happening so much after every presentation. You know, get great feedback from people, hear people say that, you know, I never thought of things that way, which is always a great one for me. But then I realized, why is everybody whispering? And that's part of the problem. Let's stop whispering and let's talk about adoption. Let's normalize the conversations. Adopted folks, adoptive families, birth families, foster families, kids and group homes. We're all over the place, and we're talking about everything else in the world. So why not talk about adoption and foster care?

Yeah. And where did this idea of shame come from anyway? Because, you know, when I adopted my daughter, I remember thinking of what a generous gift it was to have the opportunity to raise another child, another woman's child. And how courageous that was, was for that woman to say, hey, I don't think I'm capable here. I think I need to pass this along from being a mother myself. I can't even imagine what that journey for the mother, the birth mother, which you definitely talk about in your book, is right. And what a. What a generosity, shall we say, demonstration that that is to think about the child more so than yourself and your own needs. Because we see that breakdown, too. We see mothers who know that they're not ready to be mothers or fathers that are not ready to be fathers. And we see crippling effects that that has on the children because they're not willing to maybe entertain the idea of adoption. So there's. There's two sides of this. Right? And so I think, why can't we talk about it more just like you? And so I so applaud you for your courageous efforts.

Thank you. And to answer that question, one of the things that I. When we think back to the 60s and 70s, a pregnant, unwed woman was. Was pretty much considered like a disgrace to the family. And I think the shame begins there. And if we also think about the adoptee entering into a family, there is a loss as they move on and move into their adopted family. They also lost their birth parent. So there's a shame and embarrassment that comes along with that. Well, am I good enough? You know, I wasn't enough for her. Or not lovable enough for her to keep me. And so then you begin to question and wonder, is it you? And all that, I think, ties into the shame and, and the fears of abandonment and all the other. What are adoption issues or some common adoption issues with young people who are adopted? Not even just young people, because it still travels over into our adult life and our relationships.

Yes, absolutely. And the conversations that happen from the adoptive parents. Right. The adoptive parents sometimes want to think that they're contributing all of this into the child, that they're making all of these sacrifices. And oftentimes I found that adoptive parents can also be threatened by the birth parents, that somehow they're going to lose something with their adopted child if the birth parents re enter the conversation or their lives. Right. Speak to that a little bit.

Absolutely. One of the things. And that's why I started in my support group, actually, one of our support group leaders would say, you know, this is a subtraction problem, this is an addition problem. And, you know, why can't people understand it? And I, when I explained to people my interest in searching and my desire to search, I would explain to them, if I, as a parent of three, I love all of my children, nobody questions that. So why is it now that I'm interested in finding my birth parents? Do you question my loyalty to my adopted parents? You don't. You didn't question my loyalty to my oldest daughter when I had my second daughter or when I had my third daughter. You just knew that I would love them all. So why can't we understand, as a people, that the child can love everybody? That's a part of the relationship. It doesn't have to be that because birth parents are coming in, that they're going to take something away from you as my adopted parents. So. And those are the themes, unfortunately, that we see quite a bit in the media. You always see the angry adoptee or you see challenges with the adopted parent and the birth parent. So I think as we're beginning to see some changes in the storylines, in the media, it's helping. And as we're also having families have open adoptions, that's changing the conversation. But for many of us in my age group and those that came in the 60s, you know, there's still a strong sense of shame and a sense of loss and a loss of identity, and it's something that we have to address. But again, we have to start talking about it and get comfortable asking questions and being asked questions. And in many cases, you also find that the adoptee is missing from some of those conversations. And one of the things I love about the support group, one of the support groups that I attend is that there's members of every member of the adoption triad. There's adopted parents, adoptees and birth parents. And that's very rare in support groups. And so for me to be able to hear before I even had my reunion with my birth mother, some of the things the birth mothers were concerned with in terms of having relations and relationships with their relinquished children. And then after the reunion, before the reunion, all the things that they were thinking gave me a whole new insight in terms of the magnitude of this. This reunion coming together period. And then you also have adopted parents there who are able to share some of the things that concerned them. And how their children who were going through a reunion helped reinforce for them that they weren't going anywhere, because that's a storyline that you hear as well. If the birth parents are coming in, then they're going to take you away from the adoptive parents. And that's not the case. We still, our parents are our parents. And very rarely do I even use adopted parents. I only use that for conversation purposes, just to make sure people know who I'm talking about. Yeah, my parents will always be my parents.

We run into this in our body of work when it comes to step parenting, where the biological parents will feel very threatened if there's somebody that's coming in that's new. And then now they're laying claim to their children and, you know, in. In investing in them and spending time with them and developing these relationships. And all of a sudden, you know, both sides can feel threatened. And I loved what you said because it's. This is definitely a principle that we drive home in our work and that I want to drive home for our listeners today that love is an expansive quality, that there is plenty of love to go around. Right? That absolutely. Just as you so eloquently said, I have a love of myself, a love of my parents, a love of my daughters, my friends, my community. And you find that the more you love. I have six kids biologically and Tom together, and I have eight, and we have 12 grandchildren. And I assure you that with each and every person who enters into. Into our circle or our sphere in our family, it just expands.

Yes.

And it expands again and again and again.

Well, I would just share. Add to that that interestingly enough, the daughter that's listening right now was the. My biological daughter, just for context, who now works with us very closely, was the one that was the most concerned because she thought she was going to lose her dad. And so we had to assure her and remind her and demonstrate exactly that. Love is an expansive quality and it will grow.

Right? And, and, and, and families encompass so many different layers of. Even folks that we're not related to, Auntie such and such, uncle such and such, not necessarily related by blood, but just people that you deem as family. So I, you know, we really want people to understand that as we're expanding birth and adoptive family, it's the same kind of concept, to be open to it, to be able. Nobody's going anywhere. And the more open that you are about accepting that as the adoptive and as the birth parent, the easier it is for the adoptee, because we're often the ones kind of stuck in the middle and we don't want to be divided and feel like we have to split ourselves up.

Now, I loved how you refused to do that when this reunion happened and you said, hey, you guys, I'm not going to be seeing you, and then splitting myself and running over there on holidays and birthdays and celebrations and reunions. We're going to all figure out how to come together. And I love that perspective. And then you think about all the layers and opportunities of healing that goes on between. Think about your birth parents and your adoptive parents and your birth parents, and then the relationships that you get to develop with each of those individually. And you start thinking about the layers of relationships and opportunities for us to just gain understanding through the sharing and experiences. I can't even imagine how glorious that must be for your birth parents now to be a part of your lives, a part of your daughter's lives, as well as your adoptive parents continue to play their role as that support and cheerleader and just seeing their own families expand and grow, that, that. What a thrill. And boy, do we need more of that in our world where regardless of where you come from, we can all find a way to come together, right?

That is so true. That is so true.

So I want to ask you about your relationship. So if we could, let's travel back in time a little bit. And I want to ask you, how do you feel being adopted aff the choices of who you chose to marry originally, as well as how you showed up in that relationship, so that our listeners can get an idea of maybe how being adopted presents itself. When I start struggling with my identity, who I am, wonder if I'm enough share with your story, if you wouldn't mind.

Yeah, one of the things that I mentioned A few minutes ago was about, when you're adopted, you're. Sometimes you're wondering, are you enough? You know, if your birth mother didn't keep you, are you enough for anyone else that you're getting into a relationship with? And then you can begin to taint your own mind and believing that you're not enough. And if I'm not enough, then you're probably lying to me. You know, as you're telling me that you want to be in this relationship and that you love me. And I'm constantly wondering, you know, are you leaving sometime soon? So you're just constantly in doubt. And then you. You, because of that fear of abandonment, you don't want to be left by yourself. You'll stay in relationships that are unhealthy, and eventually you end up with the wrong person. And I think that that was. That was my experience. Because you want to be loved, you want to be in a relationship, and then you begin to believe. And if somebody can see some of those weaknesses or some of those things that you struggle with, they can take advantage of those things and begin to give you some of those negative reinforcements. I stayed in my marriage for 20 years, and over the years, it was, well, nobody else is going to want you. Nobody else is going to want you because you have three children. Nobody else is going to love you. Only I do. And so those things began to really seep into my mind, and I believed them. And it wasn't until that I finally said, love doesn't feel like this. Love doesn't. Shouldn't hurt like this. And why am I staying here? What benefit am I getting out of all this? And if it's nothing, move on. You know, then you hear sometimes on the media, well, that means I have to start over. And that means I have to put all this time back into another person, and somebody's going to get the time that I put into him. I, oh, well, let him move on. And then you move on and just start over, start fresh. And then. But before you can even start, you got to work on yourself. So a big piece that I do mention in the book is the Importance of Counseling. And we don't talk about counseling. We talk about counseling for crazy people, but we don't talk about counseling for the everyday person on earth who may be having some struggles, who's trying to figure out why they keep making these poor choices, and talking about it with your girlfriends and your family is not giving you the answer. Seek a counselor. We are professionals for this. So that's been A big piece in terms of working on me before I entered into another relationship and then beginning to believe that, yes, I am good enough, I deserve better than this, and it's okay to be by yourself. And that's something that I had to learn over time. And I'm definitely lovable, but I had to begin to believe that myself before I could enter into a healthy relationship, to be able to even receive the love that I was getting.

That's such a great point. And you know, one of the things that's so challenging when we're. We're in nursed or immersed in this idea and this belief that I must keep this person around because I'm not enough and maybe they're right and nobody else is going to love me like they do. I'm curious if you wouldn't mind sharing with us where. Where did the light bulb go on there? Because sometimes I, you know, I think maybe we can all relate to the experience of trying to highlight those points. Like, you know, no, you deserve better. You know, the. There's. This doesn't make any sense. Right. Look at what's happening. And yet we'll defend the person that we want to have stick around because of the fear and the insecurity that we feel inside of ourselves. So, so what would you say that would be helpful in those moments to help people see and understand that, like, how could we best support people who are immersed in that idea and that belief that they're not good enough and we find them essentially protecting their abusers. Right. Or the people that causing them to feel like they're not enough because then they know that they're not going to go anywhere is they can on the backside wrestle with some of their stuff and do some things that they know are not okay. Right. Right. We keep the whole thing in play and nobody wins. Right. It's a continuous breakdown. Is there anything looking back that, that you would say to people who are maybe find themselves in this space and, and they know that they need to do something about it, but it's scary. Let's be honest. That's one of the greatest acts of courage that we have with. With inside of ourselves. So that would be my first question and then my second would be where did the light bulb go on for you?

Yeah, I would say that for the first question, taking a look at that, that love doesn't hurt. That love. I think part of it was realizing that if you're making more excuses for the person you're involved in a relationship with and not fully able to tell the truth about whatever's going on in the relationship, then maybe that means you need to start rethinking. You're operating in the relationship as well. So I think when I realized that how we were in public versus how we were in private were two different things, and I began to realize, okay, that's referred to by many as wearing a mask in a relationship. Because I'm truly pretending. I'm pretending that everything is okay. My family doesn't know fully what's going on in our household. I didn't feel like I could really talk to someone. And I realized this is not healthy. This is not good. It's not healthy. And just watching my daughters as they were growing older, I was concerned about who they were then going to pick in a relationship, because we can say all we want, do as I say, not as I do. But my girls were watching me. And so whatever choices and decisions that I was making in my relationship, they ultimately were going to make down the line as well. And if I didn't get myself together, who were they going to bring into our household? So it was those pieces. My daughter's actually expressing concern and then just. Just finally saying, enough is enough. I don't like the way you talk to us, not only me, to our girls. I don't like. I just didn't like anything about where we were in our relationship. And realize it's not that I'm too old. You know, who cares if I have three kids? Who cares if I have to raise them on my own as a single parent? I started looking at people around me who were successfully maintaining their households, maintaining their dignity, who were educated, who were bright, who were just moving on from relationships that weren't unhealthy. And I think once I realized that that was okay, that I could make it, that I do have a support group, even though I was constantly being told, no one's going to help you. No one's going to help you. That why am I listening to you? That doesn't even make sense. And then you really start to refrain. Your thinking is really twisted when you're constantly battered with negative, negative statements. And is that love? Is that the kind of loving relationship I want my daughters to have? And with those things in mind, it was joy you. Something has to change or they're going to bring home the same type of person. They're going to repeat your patterns of behavior. And I don't want this to be a cycle. I don't want this to be a cycle. I don't Want this for them, they deserve better. I deserve better. And then eventually it was okay, we just have to move on. And from there, immediately from there, we went straight to counseling. Not just myself, me and my girls. And now we used to say we were going to the hairdresser. And then I realized at work, because I started going twice a week, I couldn't say that I was going to the hairdresser twice a week because the next day my hair wasn't always done. So my oldest daughter finally said, mommy, just tell people we're going to counseling. And she was right. And from that point, moving forward, yes, we share with people and we continue to share when we hear stories about families and relationships and things that people are struggling with. Try counseling, try a support group. You know, talking to our friends doesn't necessarily always help. You need a non judgmental voice where you're not going to wear that mask and make up that story along the way. Or it wasn't even about making up the story, it was about avoiding answering certain questions. And that all goes with that mask because. But working with a counselor taught me to go back to some things that I thought about myself. And I never connected any of that to adoption and feeling abandoned and having identity issues and fears and shame and guilt and all that. I never connected those pieces till I realized I don't stay in relationships for a long time. I don't know how to end friendships. I kind of just let them gradually go. So there were so many things I never wanted to let go of people. I would just kind of let things happen. And so I realized, okay, there are some things that I need to work on. So when I went to the counselor, I said, I don't know how you're going to help me, but I need some help. And he just started laughing and he said, I've never had anybody come in here and say that. I said, but it's true. I need some help. And the only way I can get help is by coming in here and being honest. A lot of folks waste a whole lot of time in counseling because they're not telling the truth.

Truth.

But I told my daughters, counselors are non judgmental. You're not the worst that they, they're gonna see. So feel free to pour your heart out and have them help you think through and put through the pieces, because they're not going to give you the answers, but they're going to help you think about your thinking and your decision making and question you and challenge you on different things. And you know, those are just all the pieces that kind of came in between and me trying to figure out to love myself and to be okay with leaving a relationship, you know, not having someone else kind of lined up to go into the next relationship with, you know, and trying to get away from some of the patterns of behavior and not accepting things that. That I believe that I was, you know, worthy of better.

We don't realize that the game of creating doubt in another human being is the most crippling thing that we can do to them. When we create doubt about who they are, where they can go, who they can be, how they can show up. Right. It is crippling. And then I kind of have them under my thumb is crippling.

And I'm sorry it's crippling. But you also can't. You can't see that in the person. And so those are constant struggles and inner battles that we're dealing with, but the person who's dealing with us can't see. So that whole mask wearing goes right into that piece.

Absolutely. And so mustering up the courage to say, now wait a minute, I feel like, you know, even I'm not sure I deserve better. I want to seek better. I want to do better, which was so profound. And I'm sure your counselor was surprised when you walked in and said, look, I know I need help, and I don't know how to do this, so let's go. I'm going to roll up my sleeves. I'm ready to do the work. And you also said something very profound about we can't solve life's problems if we don't tell the truth. And so we've got to start revealing what it is that we're struggling with so that you can get support and help. So many times that's what precludes us from finding the way through. And I firmly believe that. I call it Gus, God, universe and spirit, just so we can honor anybody's spiritual belief here in this conversation. Not as any disrespect to anyone, but Gus has a way of giving and providing a solution to anything that happens in our lives. And we need to remember that. And what precludes us from finding those solutions in our lives is that we don't tell the truth about them. And so we can't find the answers.

Well, and I would. I would say that, you know, put very bluntly, and no disrespect, that Joe Polish, a gentleman I have tremendous respect for, he says we're only as sick as our secrets, you know, so you Know the truth does set us free. But we have to have the courage. And like you said so so powerfully, Joy, we have to find some coach, some counselor, some facilitator that is. Is objective and impartial. You know, don't take sides. Truly helping us become a better version of ourselves.

Right.

And. And it's something. And I don't know the psychology of all that, but it's something about when you actually say something and you actually verbalize that and articulate that and admit certain things that come out of your mouth, then you can't take it back. After that point, you can't say, I, you know, I. I know I need to work on this relationship or I need to get out of this relationship. You can't say that and then take it back. Once you, you even hear yourself say it, I think it does something. So for a long time I could think it, but nobody else knew that I was thinking. But once I put it out there in the atmosphere, I heard it, I heard. So that meant I had to do something about it.

I love that.

So let's.

I'm so glad you brought that up. And let's just quickly answer your question so that everybody can understand what's happening there. There's nothing that is more important than who I am or who I am becoming. And just as simple as saying, this is my favorite color, this is my favorite food, this is what I love to do, or this is what's hurting. Every time we admit those kinds of things from within sight of myself or my I am, it validates who I am. It validates what I'm thinking, how I'm feeling, and what's possible for me. And that's why taking responsibility for even our mistakes is a way of yourself going, yep, that's what you did. Finally, you're coming clean, or, yep, that's your favorite thing. You love that person, you love that color, you love that food. Good for you. You see who you are. Which is really what's afoot is this opportunity for us to redefine who we are in this moment and validate and honor that claim that for ourselves. And that's what we mean when we talk about self love. Self love is a reclaiming of, this is what I am now, right? And it's changing all the time. It's ever rolling over. What I love today may not be what I love tomorrow, and that's okay. So I'm constantly redefining and accepting who I am and the messes that I make. And it's okay. And accepting those and cleaning them up and. And learning that I'm bigger than that and I can go on and do it again. And that is life where we are continuously becoming. When I omit those things, when I go along with things that I know are not true for me about who I am, where I want to go, how I'm showing up in my life, that is depressed expressions, and it creates depression, and it creates doubt and it creates anxiety about who I am and who I can become. And so those are why those things are so impactful to us. Right. So very well.

Thank you. Thank you for that. I was taking notes as you were. As you were speaking, and. Because those are sometimes the things that we have a hard time articulating.

Yeah.

You know, I. I know that it's a good thing that we're doing it, but. But to be able to say that when we omit those things that are depressed. Expression. That's a great way of putting it. Thank you.

So I'm hearing that becoming a mother and having these three beautiful daughters, how did that impact yourself as far as the adoption or being adopted, the awareness that you had about being adopted, did it impact you as a parent as well?

Absolutely. And I didn't think of it again until I was around a group of adoptees, adoptive parents, and birth parents, where I heard a gentleman say, you know, the first person that I saw that truly looked like me was my own child. And I'm like, yeah, that's. There was something special about an adoptee when you have your own child. That's like, wow, this is someone who's connected to me by blood, that I know that looks like me, that resembles me, that when they're out in the world, people saying, I know you're such and such as child because you look like. And I would see that for my cousins and my adopted family when we would be out, they knew that that was my mother's niece or nephew because they look. Look a lot alike. And so I think identity and resemblance plays. Plays a big part in all of that. And so, yeah, that was something that I thought about often when my oldest daughter was born. Then those things about medical history, when you start taking them to the doctors.

Excuse me.

And they're asking you, well, what's your medical history? Well, you know, I don't know mine, and I surely didn't know hers, but then I at least had her father's side or their father's side, you know, medical history. And we were able to get that information, but that still truly wasn't a full picture of. Of their medical history as a whole. So that began to really sink into my mind, into my spirit, that maybe it's time that I start looking for my birth family. It was always something else going on. High school graduation, too much, you know, college graduation or going off to college. It just never was the right time. And it wasn't really until my middle daughter was going off to college, and it was kind of. I was leading up to an empty nest just with one at home. And I realized that maybe now is the time. We were up in the mountains. Nobody else was there. And up on the screen pops a commercial for 23andMe, talking about getting your medical history and talked about tracing your roots and all the things that people were doing with DNA. And that is where everything really kind of took off with maybe the time is now. Yes, the time is now. So up there in the woods by myself, I only had a few dollars. I had to make sure I checked my bank account before I click submit on applying for the little vial that they sent you. And I did it, and I did it. And then there ended up being a delay with me getting the kit because 23andMe at that time was not new, but people were just beginning to get their medical information through them. And they would kind of freak out some of the things that they were learning because it is very extensive. And so they began to add a medical waiver. So by the. I had a delay in getting my results because the company then required a medical waiver, saying that you weren't going to hurt or harm yourself once you got your results. Because here you are kind of in a vacuum in your home getting this medical information. It could be about cancer. It could be about anything that you had double markers for. And so that's kind of where it began with the DNA and having the empty nest. Knew that I was going to have time, and it just felt like the right time to begin the. The process.

So as we wrap up our conversation today, which I can't believe, we've got to close. We definitely have got to have you come back on the show. Let's each come up with a takeaway from our conversation today that we want our listeners to kind of hang on to enjoy, we'll let you go first.

I. I like the piece that you went. Went back to. When we admit who I am, who. Who I am and what my challenges are, it validates who I am. And I think that's a big piece in terms of beginning to love ourselves. And beginning to love for a lifetime, which was your theme in the beginning. I think a lot of that deals with admitting and taking control of those pieces of your own thinking.

I think I want to leave our listeners with the concept and the inspiration that. Look at what Joy has created. She has brought so many layers of her family together in a reunion which only makes herself feel whole. I was going to read one of her beautiful poems from her book, but unfortunately we don't have time to do that. But I will post it on the show notes here for any of you who want to read it. But it basically says, man, what a beast I can be when I realize, right me. And it's just profound. So please make sure that you check that out and. And you bring us home with your thoughts.

Well, I would just say, you know, Joy, your, your, your, you know, your story and your journey is just a powerful demonstration. Stacy likes to say, look, we can deal with anything as long as we get everything out into the open. So I love how you say we need to normalize these conversations. You know, we have a framework in our body work called the Art of a Difficult Conversation. Because let's just be honest, ladies and gentlemen, most of us have no ability, no training, no practice in having difficult conversations. Why? Because it scares the bejesus out of us. I mean, it literally does. And so, Joy, I applaud you. Thank you for your courage to bring this conversation out into the open. Because when we can, can bring. I say this every week, it seems like, but when we have permission and safety around us, then, you know, oftentimes skilled facilitators that create that permission and safety, then we can start having these conversations that none of us have ever had.

And so absolutely make sure that you tell people what you're about, what you're doing and how they can reach out and connect with you.

Yeah. My website is www.findingjoy us and that's joy with an I. And I say I put us on the end instead of dot com because this is about. This work is about all of us. I coordinated my books and my memoir, My Children's Books to provide information for teachers, for educators, for families. If you go onto the website, you'll find more information about that. The Belong project is really about normalizing the conversation about adoption, getting more people to stop whispering and let's talk about adoption. And also to be a way of sharing the many resources that are available that a lot of our families don't know about. And a lot of that, again, you can find on the website.

And I do want to say that if you're inspired to donate and spread this message, help her do that through her books and her coloring books and those kinds of things to educators so that we can begin these conversations earlier in children's lives. So you can donate to that project on your website as well, right, Joy?

Yes, that's correct.

Awesome. Thank you so much for being here. Such a pleasure. Always.

Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me, for inviting me on and taking the risk on the topic that's tough to talk about.

My pleasure. So let's take a quick break and we'll come right back with a little bit of fun as well as a spread some love moment. We'll be right back.

Here's what one of Stacy Bartley's client says about working with her.

Working with Stacy has been life changing in a very magical way. I wanted to work with Stacy when I left a long term marriage because I didn't want to repeat any of my relational, how would you say, unhealthiness. I'm so amazed how she has taken her experience and wrapped it into her own own program. A program that is designed specially for you, for anyone that moves forward with her. She's unique, she's profound, she's, she's magical. She has a love for others that is unmatched and it would be a gift to yourself to work with Stacy.

Learn the simple three step system to rescue your struggling relationship by registering for Stacy's brand new free workshop. Reserve your seat by going to stacybartley.com workshop.

Hey, welcome back. We just finished an incredible conversation with Joy Fisher Griffin. What a beautiful human being doing amazing work in the world and conversation of adoption. If you are just joining us, please make sure you go back and hear that conversation of her personal story as well as how she's normalizing the conversations around adoption. It's very important work and it does impact our relationships for the long haul. But right now we're going to transition and we're going to have a little fun. And after my conversation with Joy, I thought here's my follow the fun. I wasn't going to, I was going to put together like a little activity and get all hog wild. But then I thought, you know what we need to do? We need to reach out to a person that we haven't connected with in a year or more. Like catch up, share yourself and allow them to do the same. Like it's time to take time to connect with the people who have had an impact on our lives. If it's nothing more than just saying, hey, I want you to know that you and your work and our conversations long ago had this impact on my life, or, hey, it's been a long time. Let's catch up. And you know, babe, I have a really close friend that I grew up with from the seventh grade, and I haven't talked with her in about, oh, I don't know, three years. I mean, that's. That's like crazy. That's too long.

Well, you know, I.

As you're sharing this, babe, I have to think, and I bet it's similar for most of us. I think about really how few phone calls, you know, from friends and family that I'm on now. I mean, you know, I'm known in my family as a pretty voracious texter because it's more efficient, but there's nothing like, in fact, similar to you, babe. I have a childhood friend from the seventh grade, and I had. I left him a message a while back and I hadn't heard from him, and that's very unusual. So then I just hit me one day when I said, you know, I got to reach out. I want to make sure Steve is okay, you know, and then he quickly responded back to me. But, you know, think about how few of us literally take the time to speak to people that are important to us. I mean, speak will with words over the telephone. Most of our phone use now is. Is broadband and text. So there's nothing like a call from a beloved. Really. There isn't. And most of us, I would bet the trends are unbelievably convincing and confirming that most of most of us. I know, I mean, remember how you. We used to fight and our phones and cell companies because we needed more minutes. None of us need. We don't even. We don't even use a tenth of the minutes now. But we need broadband and we're all texting, you know, so. So take a moment, take a breath, take a pause, and take the time to reach out to those someone special that you haven't spoken to in a while.

Are you stuck because there's nothing to be done? Or are you stuck because you won't allow yourself to try something different? And sharing yourself with somebody who's important to you really validates and honors who you are. So take a minute and just do that.

And I can promise you it's such a benefit from both you as the initiator of the call and the receiver. That's just how the universe works. It's just such a wonderful experience, especially now when it doesn't happen very often.

And we invite you to get on our fun list. At our website stacybartley.com we give gifts and prizes away as well as every week you'll receive Follow the Fun Moment because we all need play and novelty, we can't wait until all the problems of life are solved. Otherwise we risk running out of emotional gas to solve those problems. So make sure that you're creating some novelty and some fun. A moment to rest, laugh, take a minute to pause. It's all very, very important to the well being of ourselves and our relationships. So let's step into spreading some love. This is a moment where we have someone come on spread a little experience from their own lives about love and relationships as well as promote their platforms and all the good and wonderful things that they're creating in the world.

Maybe get you excited that they're going to be a guest on our show.

And if you know of somebody that we should have and feature in this segment, please don't hesitate to reach out to us. But today is Eric Winters. He's a leadership coach and specializes in courage, which is an empowering conversation especially when it comes to relationships. We spoke about that in our conversation today with Joy. What is it that gives us the courage to finally say enough and honor ourselves? And Eric has this to say.

Hello, my name is Eric Winters and I'm a self leadership coach specializing in building courage. I'm also the author of Swipe Right on youn Best Self, Simple Steps to a Bolder Life With Fewer Regrets. I'm really looking forward to being inside the Love Shack with Tom and Stacy soon as a guest. And the thought I'm having today I'd like to share with you about love and relationships is just how important courage is at every step of the relationship journey. After all, it takes courage to begin a relationship, to grow one, and it takes courage to have end one. At times we'll need courage to ask for what we want and courage to say no to what we're not willing to accept. The good news is that being courageous is a skill we can all get better at and one that can make a profound difference to the quality of your loving relationships. I look forward to being together with you inside the love shack.

And we look forward to having Eric with us too.

How are you not captivated with that accent? I mean courage, you know, and I love what Eric says there and we forget this and this is something Stacy and I are really passionate about that relationships require courage but encourage is a skill. Now that's. And we're all about skills. We don't. For some reason, there seems to be a massive disconnect. Sorry, I was pounding, pounding the table there. Because I get so impassioned that being great at relationships requires skills just like other walks in our life. And for some reason, there seems to be a disconnect. Or the fairy tale is we're just supposed to all be born great lovers.

I think.

Well, that's.

That's some.

That's an interesting story that we've all kind of bit off on. So join us. Eric's going to be awesome with how do we develop this courage skill.

It's going to be required for all relationships.

And Joy, just in tremendous courage that our guest had joined. Having the courage to bring this to light and create this incredible platform to have this conversation and around adoption.

And on that note, Joy is also a songwriter. She considers herself to be an art patron, which I would highly agree. Please check out her book. She has a wonderful story and it's so inspiring. And she shares so much of herself in that book. And so we want to share her song today as we step into can you feel it. You know, we've talked about a lot of concepts, and music and the arts help us to feel what it is we are trying to communicate through our words. And so it's time to put the words to rest and just feel the music.

And we get to play this one because we have permission from the. From the.

From the song here on the show with us. We have a playlist for every episode. Please check it out on our website in any of our podcast episodes because it's important to feel as well. Let's play a couple of bars of this and then. Tom, I guess it's time for you to wrap up our show.

I will come back in a moment here. Let's just enjoy Joy's song for a few moments.

Girl, don't let your crown fall this is not your downfall you got so much in you I can see your breakthrough Finding love at my pace that will get me through this race. Girl, don't let your crown fall this is not your downfall you got so much in you I can see your breakthrough just stay strong, hold on tight Everything will be all right yeah.

Special thank you to Joy Fisher today for sharing her wisdom on adoption. Adoption and the impact it has in our relationships. Also to Eric Winters for spreading some love with us about courage. Come on back next week and join us from additional ways to improve your sex, love and relationships it's been a pleasure to be here with you today.

Absolutely. Thank you so much. Like we always said, you know what, this same time, same place. We're live every Thursday at 1:00pm PST right here on KKNW and then wherever you get your podcast. Thanks to our awesome Eric writer, our engineer extraordinaire at the helm@spaceship kknw. Makes us look good, sound good and all that good stuff.

And if you found value in being here with us today, we want to take and want to take your experience a little deeper. We encourage you to check out all the many ways that we can support you on your sex, love and relationship journey. It's stacybartley.com and may we suggest you begin with getting our free resource on how to stop a fight in 20 seconds or less. You can find it all at stacybartley.com fight we're Tom and Stacy Bartley, the host of Love Shack Live, together with our engineer Eric Reiter. Thank you so much for being here and spending some of your precious time with us inside the Love Shack. We'll see you next week.

Take care everybody. Foreign.

Thanks for joining us today in the Love Shack. We hope you came away with something that made your toes tingle. To learn more about everything you heard on today's show, go to stacybartley.com podcast Love the Show. Help us spread the love by sharing the show with others. Okay everybody, time to go. We gotta close the doors to the Love Shack for this week. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. Come back next week though and join us for another edition of Love Shack Live with Tom and Stacy Bartley.

Here's.

Here's what one of Stacy Bartley's clients says about working with her.

Working with Stacy has been life changing in a very magical way. I wanted to work with Stacy when I left a long term marriage because I didn't want to repeat any of my relational, how would you say, unhealthiness. I'm so amazed how she has taken taken her experience and wrapped it into her own program. A program that is designed specially for you, for anyone that moves forward with her. She's unique, she's profound, she's magical. She has a love for others that is unmatched and it would be a gift to yourself to work with Stacy.

Learn the simple three step system to rescue your struggling relationship by registering for Stacy's brand new free workshop. Reserve your seat by going to stacybartley.com workshop.