#53: Is it possible to have a healthy relationship with a narcissist?

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Absolutely. Inside the Love Shack today we have a very special guest, actually a returning guest, and also a very, very, shall I say, juicy conversation that I know is will be relevant for many of us.

Well, we're just going to ask the question then. Is it possible to have a healthy relationship with a narcissist?

You know, almost feel like the Jaws. Jaws Music.

Done.

Done. Oh, that's a bad imitation.

Sorry. But yeah, well, narcissism as it relates in our relationships is a really hot topic. There's a lot of information. In fact, if you were to Google narcissism, a lot of relationship experts, counselors, etc have many things for you to partake of online. Everything from articles to quizzes saying that they can help you dell and and help you decide whether or not your partner too is a narcissist or maybe you are, maybe you are and how your relationship is surely doomed if there's a narcissist in the mix. It seems like people are often using this label as an explanation for all kinds of unwanted behaviors in our relationships. So today we're going to get straight to the point. Just because someone has disappointed you, ignored you, criticized you, chosen someone else over you does not mean that they are a narcissist. Join us in this conversation today with our wonderful guest who Tom said is a repeat guest, but he's also a human behavior specialist and a favorite for us, Mike Gorday. He is truly here to have this conversation with us to help us understand the difference between is this normal? Like in many cases it is and is this not normal? Is this narcissistic tendencies and what's in the label anyway and what is it we need to Be aware.

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Welcome back, everybody. We're Tom and Stacy Bartlett, along with our engineer, Eric Ryder. Great to have you with us inside the love shack. We're going to jump right into the. The real heart of the matter today.

Yeah. We have a special guest joining us, Mike Gorday. But before we introduce him, I want to bait you a little bit about this conversation around narcissism. And the definition of narcissism is extreme self involvement to the degree that it makes a person ignore the needs of those around them. Now, while everyone may show occasional narcissistic behavior, true narcissists frequently disregard others and their feelings. This also is a place where they don't understand the effects of their behavior on other people. We're going to have a juicy conversation today today with Mike Gorday, a human behavioral specialist. He is a human solutions consultant in the Pacific Northwest, and he combines his expertise in human behavior with a career of over 20 years of experience in the fields of helping human beings understand why they do what they do. Mike or Day, it's always a pleasure to have you come back and share your expertise with us again and again. We want to take a moment and just welcome you to the show. Thanks so much for being here again with us. And we are so excited to dive into this conversation so that we can all come away with a better understanding of what narcissism is, how it shows up in our relationships, and to normalize the conversation around it. You know, believe it or not, we all experience and do narcissistic behaviors from time to time. But we'll let Mike tell us about that. Come on.

Hi there.

How are you?

Good, how are you?

Yeah, we are so excited to have you here. It's always great to have you come back and share your expertise and your enlightenment with us.

You always have these really complex questions to talk about.

Yeah, I know. Well, you know, these are the things that show up in our lives, right? These are the things that we dance with. And I've avoided this conversation to be quite frank with with our listeners for many years. I mean, narcissism is a growing conversation and it has been in the statistics that I watch and see in the work of relationships for probably a good five years now. And when I first started to see it pop up, you know, in the world of psychology, Mike, you backed me on this. But we love to label things. Like, we love to put the little sticky label on there and get it out and print it off and start sticking labels on everybody's foreheads. To make sense of what it is we don't understand in our relationship. So I get it. But oftentimes these labels become the things that cripple us and cripple our relationships as well. Because we feel like this label is the whole conversation, is the whole experience. Right. So we tend to kind of put everything in this bag, underneath this label without realizing it's just something to help us better understand what might be going on. And it doesn't really mean anything about what's possible in your relationship and not possible about your relationship. So I would love for you to shed some light on what it is you see narcissism as. And maybe some of the first exposures you had to it in the field in which you work in. And then we can dive into helping people understand, understand where it is and what can be done about it.

Okay, well, you hit, you hit the head, the nail on the head a little earlier by saying that we all engage in narcissistic behavior. Right. Narcissism is self involvement selfishness and we are all selfish to an extent. Now the, the difference is, is that a true narcissist is way more involved with themselves than, than you would expect. Right. And which is, you know, diagnostically true. Narcissism is about 1% of the population.

I was just going to ask you that question, like. Okay, come on, be straight with us. How, what percentage of the population is a true narcissist? It's kind of like that psychopath. You know, we're, we're all afraid of those on the relationship space, but when you boil it all down, it's such a teeny, teeny tiny piece of the pie. And yet everybody's panicked and thinking, oh, there it is, there it is, there it is, there it is.

Yeah, yeah. And we can, we can talk a little bit about that in a second. So yeah, it's about 1% of the population. Some, some studies have upped that to about 5%, but I don't know how reliable those studies are. But for the most part, narcissists are represent about 1% of the population, as most of these things are. Males are more tend towards this issue than females. I think, I think the ratio is somewhere around 1/3 of all narcissists are female.

I'd love your thoughts on that, Mike. Why, why do you feel like that's the case?

Because we're missing a gene.

I would say us men have a lot of issues.

We, we are, we are XY chromosomes and you guys are XX chromosomes. So you guys are more complete than we are.

And that ends our show, ladies and gentlemen.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I always thought maybe the Y chromosome gave you something that we didn't have.

Well, it does, but it doesn't help us with a lot of other things.

Well said, Mike.

That could be just tongue in cheek.

But as we slip into the conversation of epigenetics instead.

Right, right, right. But anyway, back to that. Back to that issue. So true narcissism is, is more rare than what we think it is. And you mentioned this being a very big issue in the relationship realm. And we talked a little bit about this before, and it seems like everybody's dating a narcissist now, right now. That could be true, but it's more likely that people are identifying narcissistic behavior and then labeling that in order to help them deal with what they're dealing with in their relationship. Okay. Because as we talked about, there are other things that can resemble narcissistic behavior, which actually aren't. You know, we talked a little bit about attachment styles. We talked a little bit about even autism being. Having some behaviors that look like narcissism. Right.

Well, and, and if I could. Let's just, let's just all think about what it is we do when we get upset in our relationships. Like when we have a lot going on or we're feeling unsettled with inside of ourselves. What's the number one thing that we do? Any. Anybody. What is, what is it you do right out of the gate? When I'm having a difficult time and I'm struggling and I don't know what else to do, we lash out. We either lash out or we withdraw. We withdraw.

Right. We tend to, we tend to withdraw. We tend to lash out. And the reason why we do that is because we don't like pain. So our brain is trying to figure out where to put that pain. So we engage in a lot of different types of defense mechanisms in order to do that. So one is blaming, another is denial. Withdrawing from a, from a conflict or from your partner gives you emotional space. Right. So you're, you're, you're not dealing with the amount of energetic, frenetic, emotional stuff. So it's, it's a dumbing down of that, and that's what creates all these issues in our relationship. So, you know, if I want to do something, right? So if, if, let's say me and my girlfriend go out to. We're going to go out to dinner on Friday night, but my buddies decide hey, let's go golfing on Friday, right? And I would really rather go. Go. And I lie to my ex or, you know, well, yeah, maybe she's my ex now. Or I lied to my. I lie to my person in order to go play golf. That is a form of narcissism, right? Because I am self. I am taking away from our relationship to give me something.

Well, and, and let's just go back to narcissism at its. At its core, right? The definition that we're all using to define this label extreme self invol. To the degree that it makes a person feel ignored or their needs are ignored. And I think it's. I think it's right there that we can start to see when I withdraw and I pull in, which is a very normal thing to do as a human being, that withdrawal for long periods of time can be labeled as narcissism as well, right? Where it's like, ah, see, you don't want to talk. See, you're avoiding the issue. See, Right.

One of the. Yeah, go ahead.

I was just saying. So let me just. May I ask. So if. Mike, if. Let's just have some fun in that same example you just shared. So let's say, you know, you came home, you said, got it, babe. You know what? Fred just invited me to go golf at this unbelievable golf course that I've not played before. Would it be how, you know what, could we reschedule our date that we were have tonight and would that be all right if I chose to go golf and golfing instead? How would that be? So how does that interplay into this narcissistic behavior?

Well, that would be the healthy way of remedying this, right? So you're, you're, you're bringing her in to, to help you solve that issue. Whereas, you know, if I'm like, if I think I'm gonna catch a rash of stuff, if I go and talk to her, she's gonna get upset or, you know, I'm just gonna lie.

Okay.

And that'll. That'll ease that. That'll ease it. And then when she finds out about it later, then I'll lie about that too.

Okay, gotcha. Yeah. Sometimes seems like the easier way out, right? And that lie can be everything from a flat out lie to I gotta work to oh, I'm sick to could be any composite that I think that might. Yeah, get her to bite off on that.

Right? So when we talk about narcissism, a true narcissist is somebody who really thinks they are that they are them and the bag of chips that come with it. Right. They usually have a grandiose sense of self worth, so they think they're better than everybody. They think that they have all the right answers. They often are feeling superior to other people, and they. They have difficulty feeling emotions like regret, remorse, empathy. Right. Because they're. They're not interested in your emotions. They're just interested in getting what they need to get.

Mm.

So that's. That's the driving factors behind true narcissism.

Mm.

Now, one of the problems that we talked about is that the label of narcissism is like, everybody lumps these things into this label. Oh, he was. He was lying to me. He acts like a jerk all the time. She does this, she does that. And we're looking at selfish behavior, and we're saying, oh, they're narcissist. And as soon as we place that label on them, then we start looking at behavior through that lens, and then a lot of things that they're doing becomes narcissistic. And what it. What it really helps us do is helps us disengage from the relationship so that we are feeling safe, more safe and secure. So if I can say, well, I'm dating a. I'm dating a narcissist, I, you know, I immediately get sympathy from other people. Oh, you poor person. You must. You must have a lot of problems. They must really drive a lot of stuff. And, you know, it's. It's kind of crazy. And I bet you never get your needs met and blah, blah, blah. Right. So I. I automatically get sympathy from other people, which is a form of. Of acceptance, which we all need as humans. And I can withdraw from that relationship in a. In a more safe and secure manner instead of really thinking or going and looking at this and saying, okay, is that really narcissism? Are they really a narcissist?

Mm.

Or are they just. Are they just really self involved? Yeah, that. That. See, that's the problem here is that where's that demarcation point between self involvement and narcissism?

Let's create some distinctions there. Let's talk about what's normal and what isn't normal, kind of like we were talking about in the beginning. And this is causing me to think of a. Of a client of mine here maybe a year or so ago. And I'll just briefly tell the story in case anybody's relating to this.

The.

The woman in the relationship, she files for a divorce because she just can't seem to find happiness and fulfillment in the relationship and feels like her. Her husband of 20 years is just constantly not there for her. Ignoring her doesn't seem to take what she needs and wants and the relationship to heart. She's constantly feeling like. And being told she's too sensitive. She's taking things too personal. Right. And. And her emotional needs are just kind of becoming discounted. So she seeks therapy after filing for a. And her counselor, after hearing her story and not talking with her partner, says, oh, he's a narcissist. You need to leave him. There's no other options for you. Like, this is the end of the road. And she didn't want to do that. She wanted to really save her relationship. She wanted to make things better. She wanted to make sure that she had uncovered every possible other option before she executed those divorce papers. Which is about the time she stepped out and reached out to Tom and I. She. She came in and participated in our Love for a lifetime program and come to find out he wasn't a narcissist at all. And the two of them were able to put their relationship together and they learned how to communicate. What was really going on is her husband actually really suffered from trauma. He had a lot of trauma. And the trauma came from the lack of confidence to speak up and say what it is he needed to say. Like, that was really dangerous to vet out or share his perspective with anyone. He paid a price for that time and time and time again. So when it came to creating connection, which is, you know, me sharing me with you and you sharing you with me there, the connection was atrophying because he didn't have the ability to do that. And the counselor was telling my dear sweet client that he was a narcissist because he wouldn't meet her emotional needs. There's a difference now. And that's why I thought, let's jump into the distinctive differences here, because there's a difference between not feeling like emotionally I have the ability to. The skills to. But I want to. I just don't know how that's different than a narcissist. Right. To create one. There's one out of that story. Right, Right. And. And sometimes it's hard to tell the difference until you start giving them the opportunities and the skills to see if by chance, if the know how and the safety is created, will they share themselves with you and those things can be transcended. Right. Right. So give me another one.

So, okay. So the first. One of the first things that I want to say is that a counselor is, should not be diagnosing somebody else.

So agree. And a counselor should never tell you what you should do, right?

You can, you can say, well, this sounds like this, but that's, that's the issue. As soon, again, as soon as I place that label, as soon as the counselor is, somebody in authority puts that label on them, right? We tend to, we tend to start looking at it through there. So that's, that's one problem. So shame on that counselor. But back to the other point. Let's talk about how men are. So men are still socialized like this. So we could call this socialized narcissism, if you, if you, if you want to play with this a little bit. Right? So men are, despite all the, all the stuff that we are trying to do as a population or as a race or a civilized humans, we, we still tend to socialize men in certain ways and women in certain ways, right? We, we still tend to socialize women to be caregiving and nurturing and things like that, which there is a natural component to that, but there's also the social component. The. And men are still taught how to, how to be men, right? In several certain ways. So part of that is not having any feelings other than anger and happiness. Okay. Men are, Men are still taught that it's not okay to have other feelings. And how do, and how do we translate that? Right? If, if I'm raised to, to show no feelings other than anger or happiness, what does that, what does that start looking like? Right? It starts looking like narcissism, right? And because, because he's not able to communicate those needs, he commute. He, he communicates in compliance ways and things like that. So he, he withdraws him or withdraws attention or he gives attention based on what he, what he's trying to do. And that supports the social aspect of that man. Okay? So it doesn't mean that, it does not mean he's a narcissist. I have a really good example of a narcissist, but it would probably inflame a lot of people. So I'm not going to say it.

Well, and I just want to point out there that that think about the person who's maybe in that space as a male, this starts to maybe explain why it is we label a third of all narcissists or who we believe to be narcissist as male. Actually.

Two thirds.

Two thirds.

Two thirds.

I'm sorry, I wrote it down as one third, but yeah, two thirds.

Not quite sure on that, but the statistically, females tend to be less of that.

Well, let me just point out here, because we are talking about the social norms. I just want our listeners to understand that the reason why females are really good at expressing their feelings and their emotions is because we practice it a lot. Like, if we can't figure it out for ourselves, we're going to go get a group of girlfriends together and I guarantee you, we're going to, like, dissect that stuff down to powder dust, and it won't matter how long it takes, and it doesn't matter where we need to go to uncover it. Right, Right. So we are well rehearsed, well practiced, and this is an avenue socially that's given to us. I agree with you, Mike. Males, on the other hand, are really at a disadvantage here because I don't see a lot of males sitting around talking about their feelings. Okay. About how that impacted them.

No. And especially from out my generation and older, right. We're, we were raised in a very specific way. You cannot go to another person, say, hey, I'm really scared about this, because what happens, you, you get, you get called names, you get, you get rejected, you get all kinds of stuff. So, yeah, you always have to come at things like, oh, I got this and that. That creates, that creates an issue. The other thing that, that happens to. You mentioned that this fellow had a lot of trauma and that. That feeds into it, too. Because if I, again, I just mentioned it, if I, if I go out and I, I reveal my vulnerability, right, and somebody attacks that, I'm not going to do it again because I've learned. Which means, okay, I can't talk about being afraid or I can't talk about other feelings. I can't talk about sadness or anything like that. That's why, you know, one of the reasons why suicide is, is very high in the male population because we, we do not, we are not socialized to deal with these things.

Hey, I, it's kind of causing me to remember we were just recently down in Moab celebrating my brother Greg's 70th birthday and happy birthday, Greg. That was an incredible experience. But we're, we're sitting on a bench at the top of a hill, and there's some bike riders that come up the hill. You know, they're all men, you know, doing their grind thing. And the leader turns around and, and says, hey, you good? And all the bike riders go, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good. And they take off again. Now, mind you, they've just ridden several miles. I mean, they're sweating, they're panting, you know, and my sister said, I guarantee you, there's one of those men that are not okay, but there's no way they can say, yeah, can we just take a break here for a minute? Can we just take a breather and let me catch my breath, right? Even things like that, right, Are not often options for, for men because of the socialization. Right?

And this has, this obviously has its. Has its perks, right? So if I'm. If that makes. That makes me as a guy, I want to push through uncomfortable situations. I was. I was a martial artist for many years too, and we did that all the time. Push through it, push through it, push through it. It doesn't matter if you vomit. You just go and vomit and then you get right back in line and start going. There isn't. And this, we have, we have all kinds of different words. Cowboy up is one, right? And this is that very ultra masculine way of doing things. So when it comes to relationships, it translates into relationships as narcissistic behavior. And it doesn't necessarily mean that that's what's going on. That's. That's the big issue with labeling people narcissists all the time, right? So we have that and then we have the insecurity factor. Narcissism is really driven by insecurity.

I think that's. That's kind of probably a mind bender for most people because if you don't understand human behavior, that doesn't make any sense. Now wait a minute. You just told me that they thought they were bigger than life. I apologize. I got a cough.

Yeah, get that out.

My eyes are watering so bad. I can't hold it back anymore.

Take a drink, honey.

I'll take it over now.

Ladies and gentlemen, here, this is the all male love shack. Live now with Michael.

Be a man.

Pony up. Come on.

What are you, a big baby?

Okay. I'm good.

Yeah. See how easy that just comes to the mouth?

Well, you had said that there is some good things about this. And I, and I totally. I totally agree with you. On the flip side, we women love a strong man, right? Most of us love a strong man. And as we're emotionally falling apart, right? Because that's what we do best. That's the avenue. A lot of us don't have the ability to realize we are so much stronger than we think we are. And so that strong male says, hey, we got this. Don't you worry. You know, it's you and me against the world gives me a sense of safety and security. And so as females, we also don't realize how we buy into that label. And we support that label by saying, hey, you know, figure it out. You're the guy, you know that, this is your arena. You're supposed to be able to see us through and make the money work and right, protect me and et cetera, et cetera, because of those social norms. So I think it's important for us women to look at how we maybe drive that label in our own men and in our own relationships, right? They can't be vulnerable with us women and share openly and honestly if they don't feel like you have the strength in your own legs to prop them up when they need it most. And most of us don't even know what that place looks like. And so in our own subtle way, us women feed into that belief and that propping up of men have somewhat got to be strong and a narcissist, a social conversation. I'd love your thoughts on that.

Well, there's, there's also some biological imperatives there, right? These things are, these things are not simply somebody decided this is what your role is as a male, and there are biological connections there too. But one of the problems that, that we have is that we take these ideas and then we strengthen it into just, just we categorize it, say this is what needs to happen, instead of saying, well, you can be strong, but you can also understand what you're feeling and you can express your feelings and things like that. And I totally just derailed myself. Where was I going?

Oh, that's okay, because I. I'll pick it right up. I. A great example that I, I use to talk about so that we can all kind of understand where the other person might be, whether we be male or female, is I love to ask my female clients, hey, what we've been given is this outlet to express our emotions, right? We can share anything. And like I had already described, we can, we can pull it apart. But what we don't have the ability to do that men are so good at because of this practice and socialization is to be comfortable in my body. My body is a place where I don't feel very comfortable, and I have a difficult time talking about my body. I have a difficult time expressing life or how I'm feeling through my body, through my physicality. So if you ever want to understand how a man feels when you turn to them and say, hey, can we talk? And. And they go oh, gosh, you know, I gotta work late. I. I can't fit it in. I just. Just think about the inverse when they say, hey, baby, you know, would you put on that sexy lingerie and do a little dance for me? And we all go, yeah, I gotta cook dinner. I gotta pick up. Got the kids, soccer practice, you know, got lots of work, honey, I think I'm going to be home late. And I. And I just want to create the correlation there that in these places where we have been socialized, everybody's uncomfortable. And that feels the same, but yet we all have the ability to do both, Right?

Right.

Men have the ability to learn to practice the skills necessary to share themselves. And women have the ability to learn the ability, you know, the skills and a place of safety through practice to be comfortable in their body so that we don't do this thing of pulling back, pulling out, withdrawing into ourselves, because I don't know what else to do.

Yeah. So, yeah, we can make some distinctions here with, generally speaking, right. Men tend to be fixers. So when a woman comes to us and that part of that is natural and part of that is socialized. So when a woman comes and expresses her emotions to us, we want to fix it. So one of the things that we tend to do. And again, this is a very general, broad stroke. It doesn't mean everybody does this, is that we go. We start giving advice, right? Well, you need to, you know, I had such a hard day at work today, blah, blah, blah. Well, you need to go tell that person to f off. You need to go and ask for that raise or you need to go and do this. Right. So we're trying to fix it. And what you need, or as a woman in general, is just for me to listen it.

Right?

So you're getting frustrated because I'm trying to fix it and you're. And then it suddenly becomes a fight between me and you. And in my brain, I'm going, okay, f this I'm not doing. I don't know what to do here. I'm completely. I'm completely frustrated. Idol shut down, shut down, shut down. All systems. Ignore, ignore, ignore. So that's. That's where we get this sort of separation of communication styles, right?

Yeah, absolutely. And what we're asking them to do is something that they don't really know how to do, which is why we can go to our girlfriends and just have them go, oh, that really sucks. I've been there too. Because they know how to share from the emotional perspective. Men go to the fix It. Because that's more of a physical outlet that they've been given, and they're really, really good at it, right?

And then when we go and we talk to our male friends about our problems, we always put it in a. In a realm where we can. We can deal with it, right? Oh, she's such a. She's such a this and she's such a that. I can't believe it. Blah, blah, blah. And your male friends are going, yeah, yeah, let's go get drunk. Yes, absolutely.

So there might be some opportunity for expansion on both sides.

Well, that's. That's the whole point, right? Is. Is. Is. Listen, when it comes to this label of narcissism, like I said in the beginning, I've avoided this conversation for a really long time because the minute we start going down that track, the label of narcissism can be used to explain a lot of unwanted behavior in our relationships. And if we don't have the ability to distinguish what's narcissistic and what isn't, then you're going to probably label a partner, somebody that you love and care about as narcissistic, when, indeed that's probably not the case. That is not what's going on. Now. They may be doing narcissistic behavior, but they are, in and of themselves, not a narcissist. What they are saying is, I don't know how to share my feelings with you. I don't know how to go down that road when I've done it before. Like Mike had suggested. I paid a huge price, right? And so how do we bridge this gap? And. And guess what? Just like Mike had said earlier, the minute you put that label on there, guess what everybody's doing? Pulling back, pulling away, doing more narcissistic tendency, ironically, right?

Both.

Now. Both are right.

And then. And then guess what? If I label my partner, if I say, well, she's a narcissist, he's a narcissist, whatever, I then absolve myself of any responsibility, right? Because that's. That's their problem. It's not my problem. I'm. I'm. Okay. And that's where we get into trouble, because then everything that they do is negative. And everything I do is. I'm just a. Well, I'm. I'm just the victim in this. And that's. That's one of the problems that. That occurs when we start to just label stuff. And that's. You know, I mentioned it when we got. When guys go and they talk about their Spouse or their girlfriend as, as bees or whatever. You know, they're, they're, they're creating a label to stick on that person in order for them to feel better. And then they're abso themselves a responsibility because the guy's going, yeah, I know. I've got. I've got an old hag at home, too. Blah, blah, blah. My old ball and chain. Well, all these, all these really bad, negative words that we use to describe our partners when, when it would just be easy or be more healthy if we go, yeah, you know, we're fighting about some issues right now. And. Yeah, like, yeah, we. We do that too. And what, what, what do we do to, to help each other out instead of, you know, go, let's go get drunk or go play golf or whatever we're going to do. Go play poker.

Yeah, well, and I think what's, what's important is that, number one, we're all going to have an experience in our relationships at some point in time where we feel as though somebody is doing narcissistic behavior. That's going to happen. It's going to happen. You're going to do it, they're going to do it. And the question becomes, how do we navigate our way through this without labeling it and then pulling away? Because that's the moment the minute I pull out and pull away, which is very normal for us when we're in situations where we're scared, we're angry, we're frustrated, we're emotionally overwhelmed, or flooded. The thing that we're all going to do as a human being and the hierarchy of trying to deal is pull back, pull within. Right, right. Take a pause. And then we start to try and figure things out. And what our tendency is to do next is to figure out what you're doing. That's the problem.

That's right.

It's your fault. And if you would just stop and do. Or stop doing that thing you do, we're gonna be fine. Right. That's what I do to make myself feel better. And, And Mike, I say this, and I, I would love to get your thoughts on this too. I think that looking at ourselves, doing a self evaluation about how I might be showing up in my relationship is probably the toughest work we ever do. Like, that is so difficult for us as a human being to do.

Yeah. Yeah.

Would you agree?

Oh, absolutely. It all starts with you. Everything. Everything starts and ends with you. Right. So when, when we feel uncomfortable, our. And, and this is this. The problem with this is that it. It's it's the way we're designed. We are designed to be this way. So it's very difficult to counter those things. But human beings are. Human beings are one of the few creatures that can choose to counter natural tendencies, right? So we have to be able to be the ones that go, okay, this is really uncomfortable. Why is it uncomfortable for me? And then be able to. To try and not react and start using those defense mechanisms, because the minute we start doing that, we start losing ground. And if, you know, John Gottman. John Gottman's work, he. He's one of the few psychologists that can predict human behavior, right. In relationships, because he's identified these. These different areas where people, you know, decide the relationship is over. And when we do that. When we start doing that, we start building a narrative. We start creating a story about the person that we're with. And part of that. Part of that story is the label we give them. So if I. If I'm experiencing something that everybody else is telling me is a narcissist, and I can go, oh, well, okay, they're a narcissist. And then suddenly all the negative connotations that surround that label, I take on, oh, if he's a narcissist, that means he's never gonna get better. He's always gonna treat me like this. I really need to get out of this relationship, blah, blah, blah. Then I create that story. Then I can withdraw from the relationship. Now, the caveat, of course, is that if you're actually with a narcissist, that's what you need to do, right? So this. This gets really complicated really fast. And it takes a lot of inner work work to be able to go, okay, maybe this is something that I'm seeing differently than what is actually there. You know, like the counselor telling. Telling the client, that's a narcissist. You need to get out of that relationship. And thankfully, well, she did go back and try to change that. Right? She went back and said, no, this isn't. She did not believe that label.

Mm. Well, and. And let's. Let's talk about that for a minute. Right? So in whether I'm a narcissist or I'm not a narcissist, for those who might suspect that they are in the relationship with a narcissist in this very moment, while listening to us talk, what. What should we encourage them to do, knowing what we know? And the first thing that I would say is I would explore everything that's possible. I would give that person the Opportunity to create with expertise and skill and safety, the ability to talk about their feelings, give them the know how. We don't think about those things as skills. We think about those things as it either is or it isn't. You know, they either have the ability to share themselves with somebody else or they don't. And. And that's the end of the story. And that's not true. Those things can be developed. And so it's the difference between, am I willing to do this or not do this? Am I willing to grow and expand? Because I see this isn't a problem in our relationship and it's affecting you or not. That's. That's the first thing I would say. Right? Right. Explore that without just going with the label and assuming that that's the end of the road. Explore what's possible there. That would be my first encouragement. And what would you say to that, Mike? What would be yours?

That. That's. That yours is what I would say. Figure out. Figure out. You first, you know, because we have. We have an extremely difficult relationship with ourselves, and that's what growing up is all about.

We.

We all try because we've all had traumatic experiences. We've all had socialized behavior. We all have things that have shaped the way we think about the world, and it always comes in conflict with itself. So we're always running around, like, doing things that other people go, well, well, that's really odd. Right? And we don't think it's odd because we have lived with ourselves this whole lifetime. Right.

And when somebody actually has the ability to share with you why it is they do what they do, it always makes sense, right? It really does. Once you get the story that's behind it, you go, oh, I get that. I get why you would do that, given where you're coming from.

Right. And when we're dealing with somebody else, we have to be able to sort of de. Emotionalize our reactions to things and look at. At really kind of look at that behavior and see if there's something else that can be causing that behavior. You know, the, like, insecurity, like trauma. Trauma, yeah. Trauma is a big one. Trauma will. Trauma will create things that look like other things because it's. It's like a chameleon. So learning how to deal with that and learning how to look at those behaviors in a more clinical way is helpful. It doesn't mean. It doesn't mean that you. You stick to it. Right. If. If you're just not happy at all in the relationship, then maybe you need to get out of it. If there's abuse that's going on, which typically speaking, a narcissist is probably willing to engage in some sort of abuse, whether it's, it's usually mental, physical, maybe, maybe physical, maybe psychological.

Right.

In order to get their needs met, they, they generally manipulate people so they, they are willing to be abusive. And that's where that whole gas lighting term comes in, is that they're creating scenarios that, that make you question your own reality. So if it's an abusive relationship, yeah, that's not healthy. You might, you might need to get out of that relationship. If, if it's, if you're just not happy and you don't think you're going to be happy, you might just need to get out of that relationship. But if you can, if you can look at that person and pull back the, the curtain a little bit and look at, see what's driving that person, what you think is that behavior, you might find that, that there's something different there. I love that.

As we land this episode, let's, let's kind of all just kind of give a takeaway a piece in regards to what it is the key point and principle that we want our listeners to take away from our conversation today. It's just kind of a wrap up session. What would be the number one takeaway that we would want them to remember and highlight from our conversation today about this very, very serious topic because it affects so many relationships. Right. Mike will let you go first.

I would say stay off the Internet.

Don't take the quizzes, don't go down the rabbit hole of labeling somebody.

Yeah, that, that, that's one of the biggest problems I see with some of this stuff because we were talking last week about attachment styles and I'm, I'm in this, I, I have this group that I'm involved in. Well, I'm not involved but I watch sometimes and they all identify each other through their attachment style. So there's, they'll say, well, I'm an AF and this is, I want to know how to do with the D D A or whatever, you know, and when we do that, we tend to marginalize anything else that that's going on out there. And so again it's, it's that lab, so stay off the Internet.

Oh, I love that. That's awesome. And that tells me, and that makes me want to say if you remember anything from this, remember that as human beings we are so dynamic and we have the capacity to become anything. And I say that term, literally anything. We all have the capacity and the ability to be narcissist along with many other things. Right. And regardless of our attachment style, regardless of what it is we've been through, if we're willing to, we can learn the skills and practice the behavior that will change that for us. So that's why labels get us into such a corner. And so if everybody's willing to work on and change and expand themselves, it will absolutely expand the relationship, regardless of what the title or the context in which you're putting yourself in. So be careful about how we do that. And if you're needing some help and support with that, then reach out to people who can help you explore that. Because unfortunately, in our relationship, relationships, we become very incomplete when we label it and then just leave the relationship and drop it as though we figured it all out. There's always a piece inside of us that has a bit of unrest there because you haven't gotten to a true place of completion, which is a conversation. Mike, you'll have to come back and we'll have another day. But completion is huge.

Yeah.

And I will add that. Just be careful of, in other words, understanding what behavior is. But be like Mike and you've shared, babe. Understanding is different than labeling. Because as if we label, then, like Mike had said, excuse me, Then we have all the confirmation bias and everything will be viewed from that point forward.

That's right. That's right. That's what that is. Confirmation bias.

Yeah.

Pretty good, huh? I forgot. Yeah, kind of. This is, you know, better, you know.

Not as, not as.

What they say.

Yeah.

So, Mike, share with us again where besides your incredible co hosting with your awesome colleague Nathan on techtime Radio, where else can people find more about you and your excellent work?

You can find me on mike gorday.com and you can look me up on Facebook too, if you like.

Yeah, yeah. If by chance you're lurking on the Internet.

Yeah, I, I, I am not on Facebook a lot, but, you know, I, once in a while I do take a, take a peek, so.

Oh, it's great to have you here, Mike, as always. It's always such a pleasure. Have a beautiful week and give that beautiful sweetheart of yours a big squeeze from us.

And give the, give the techtime Radio group a hello from us and we will have you back again soon, my friend.

All right, perfect. Well, I will look forward to seeing you guys again.

And.

Keep, keep, keep it up.

Yeah, we'll do. You do the same.

Thank you.

Bye. Bye.

Hey, we're Gonna take a quick little break here and we're gonna come on back and have some fun. We gotta get that in and we've got to get some feeling with some music going as well. So after the break, come on back and we'll have a little bit of fun.

I met Stacy and Tom about two years ago. I was at a point in my relationship where I was ready to file for divorce. Not that I wanted to, but I just felt hopeless and helpless. I'd been through other counseling and coaching and didn't find any success. With Stacy and Tom's methods I was able to eliminate insecurities, set boundaries, plant my flag, eliminate rabbit holing. I was separated from my wife for a year and I have since moved back home for the last six months now. I still refer back to, to a lot of the teaching that Stacy and Tom provided and it's helped me. It's well worth it.

Learn the simple three step system to rescue your struggling relationship by registering for Stacy's brand new free workshop. Reserve your seat by going to stacybartley.comworkshop.

There'S a reason they invented the Internet.

It's called 1150 kknw.com.

Welcome back inside the love shack. Tom and Stacy here along with our engineer Eric Ryder and just had a mike or day. We just, if you haven't listened that, go back and catch the replay for a really, really, I think and hopefully a very, very value valuable packed way to navigate this incredibly juicy conversation around narcissism.

It can create some problems in our relationships by merely using the label. So if we're going to put that on somebody, we want to make sure that we've vetted out all the other possibilities. So it was great to have that conversation with him. But now because that's kind of a heavy thing, I want you to wiggle around, maybe take a breath. Okay. And we're going to shift gears because I want you to know you can do that at any point in time. We are very dynamic as human beings and we absolutely have the ability to shift gears and we want to and the animal world, we shake it off. And my engineers probably go and stop doing that. Stacy, it makes the sound really funny but animals shake it off and that's what I want to invite you to do by just taking a big breath. And we're literally going to step into some inspiring ways that you can can have some darn fun. When we're struggling in our relationships or we're concerned, filled with worry anxiety which so many of us are struggling with we forget how to have fun and novelty be a part of our lives. So we want to inspire that every time you come back here with us inside the love shack. We want to inspire you and remind you that you have the ability to have some fun along the way. While maybe perhaps our hearts are beating fast like a rabbit. And today our follow. The fun inspiration is I want to invite you to arise with the sun. To just someday where you can fill it, fit it in here in the next week. Arise with the sun. Get up early and enjoy the morning for a change. Instead of rushing through your shower, grabbing your cup of coffee and dashing out the door. Bye bye. Right? I know for myself I do that I rush to the office right, in a big old blaze of glory and instead get up earlier, give yourself some time. And what if you were to make a. A wonderful little breakfast for you and your partner, your family, and you were to take it slow instead of fast and you were to light some candles or maybe pull out some wonderful dishes and maybe like a Saturday morning or a Sunday morning during the week, Wouldn't that be incredible? And when you get to that place where you're sitting down to enjoy that beautiful breakfast and watch the sunrise, how about if you and your lover start talking about your future hopes and dreams, like what would you like to do? Where would you like to go? And maybe that will stimulate some new ideas about some things that you can co create and experience together. And these things, these types of conversations, they fill us with hope, they fill us with possibility. Even if by chance I can't act on them right now, just the mere entertaining of the idea that we can do this would be an incredible thing. So give yourself that gift. So gosh, babe, something you want to do?

Absolutely.

And let's get the. What's. What's going to move us here as we, as we land this episode? What's. What's moving. What's. Where we're gonna step into the music for today. What's the song?

Well, that's. That's. Can you feel it? And we attach a song to every single episode that we do. And you can find this playlist on our website. It's a Spotify playlist. We encourage you to check it out because we need to feel as much as we need to have some fun and we need to learn some new things. And we try and pack that into every episode that we here inside the love shack. So this song today is a song that's incredible. Her name is Jasmine Sullivan and Jasmine Sullivan has a song called pick up your feelings. And as we've had the conversation about narcissism, about the emotions of love and the whirlwind that it can bring in our lives, I love where she sings in the song pick up your feelings because we all need to be responsible for the way that we feed feel. And it's an incredible soulful song. I encourage you to check it out, listen in and it will give you the essence of what it is we've talked about today. So as we wrap up the session, please know that Tom and I are so grateful you've spent some time with us inside the Love Shack here today. And if by chance you've loved what you've heard, we encourage you to spread the word, share it around with people you know need to have this conversation within their own lives and relationships. And we so look forward to being back here with you next.

Absolutely. Thanks to Mike Gorde, our incredible colleague and friend and and co host of Tech time Radio. And also if you're having some problems, if you're fighting, coming up, some fights. We have a brand new free resource and it's available, no strings attached. Stacybartley.com forward/stop fight. So check it out.

Have a great week, you guys, have a little fun. Don't forget that piece of inspiration. We look forward to being back here with you next week inside the Love Shack. Bye bye for now.

Thanks for joining us today in the Love Shack. We hope you came away with something that made your toes tingle. To learn more about everything you heard on today's show, go to stacybartley.com podcast Love the Show. Help us spread the love by sharing the show with others. Okay, everybody, time to go. We gotta close the doors to the Love Shack for this week. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. Come back next week though and join us for another edition of Love Shack live with Tom and Stacey Bartley.