Stop "shoulding" on yourself | Susie on the Sofa with Cass

Hello, welcome to Susie Unshaped. I'm Susie on the sofa and this is Cass, my gorgeous sister. So new series that we've created, um, really as a way to document our experiences over the last while, which have been many. So today, um, we wanted to talk about— Cass has just done a big Boggle Button Life Um, experience where she basically blew up her life and is now watching all the pieces fall down and see— seeing what she can build from it. Like, sort of blowing it up to rebuild and start again, but in a way that's close to her heart and is like heart-driven and soul-led and full of purpose that brings her joy. So we wanted today to talk about— was it— it's like the why. Why she chose— she did a Camino, which is a really long walk, like 800 to 1,000 kilometers. Well, you can choose to do shorter, but she chose an 800-kilometer one, and then she bookended it with a— she bookended it like travel around Europe and a story we talked about yesterday about a disastrous ski working holiday in the ski fields in Germany. And so, and then bookended it with another Camino. So the 2 different experiences, and the Camino is— we want to talk about the why the Camino What, um, led her to choose that. And I'm also going to talk a little bit about why I chose to do the 31-day challenge of living from your heart but in a 3D world, because a 3D world will bite you every time. So, um, let's get into the what— like, why— like, it's sort of like the what made you start, and then how did— How did it all go?

Um, so I, yeah, so, uh, like Sue said, I made the commitment to walk a Camino de Santiago, which is an 800-kilometer pilgrimage across Spain. Um, I, I chose to walk the Camino partly, I think I was very much inspired by a very, very dear friend of mine who walked it.

Hi, Al! Hi, Al. We love you, Al. We love you.

Um, uh, Al had walked it in 2017. She was searching for— well, I was— the way I looked at it was that she had an incredible experience. There was some meaning found, some insights and reflections at a time in her life when things should have been amazing. She'd sort of reached this point in her life where from the outside everything looked like it should have been amazing, but she was feeling like she was missing something inside. And She hit that period in her late 30s and I hit it in my early 40s and sort of came to the realization career-wise and life-wise. And I was like, is this, is this all there is? Is this actually all there is for the next 40 years? And am I going to be happy doing this for the next 40 years? Um, so the is this all there is question—

Is anyone else having that question? I'm sure you are.

I'm sure you are.

I think, yeah, the is this, is this it? That is the question.

It is.

I think, um, probably both you and I were both looking— we're looking for answers. And I think in order to look for answers, you have to go inwards, because outside, like, we've been getting all these signals and feedback, etc., from the— from an external world that we know isn't fitting. So you would probably say you were searching for answers, and Al had said I found some on the Camino. You're like, well, maybe I can find some on the Camino as well.

Maybe walking 800 kilometers, I'll find something. I'll get some answers to some questions.

Yes.

Yeah. So that was, that was the initial, uh, driver to, to head over to Europe in April 2025 and walk, um, 800 kilometers across country. Might sound slightly extreme, an extreme way to get some answers, but, um, the— I guess I thought the, the daily routine and the, the meditative process of walking and, uh, being in nature and having time to, uh, go inwards and reflect and ask questions and get insights. That was kind of the driver for walking the Camino.

So, um, from what Cass has told me though, and I think that this is— but this is kind of good, um, like a way to see how you can challenge yourself, which when you don't even know you're going to. Like, Cass started the Camino and has told me she thought I'm fit, I'm young. Yeah, like I can, I can walk 20, 30 kilometers a day. I can do this. Like a million— not even a million, probably gazillions, real word, um, real number, um, of people have walked the Camino. I can do it. I'm fit, I'm young, I'm fit.

Um, there was definitely a healthy dose of Australian should be right, mate.

And, and that, um, that feeling like you committed to it, like I can do that, that's not that hard. Like how hard can it be? I'll commit to that. That's something. And you sort of just make that decision and you know You know, okay, I'm gonna get there. Yeah, I've got to do a bit of research to get the right equipment and things like that. Not hard, I've done that before. Tick, tick, and then off you go. And, and then I think that that's when life, um, you've made a commitment, but then life has other ideas.

Yes. Yeah. So the Camino, um, there's a saying that the Camino— well, actually, that my dear friend Al, uh, says— is that the Camino gives you what you truly need, not what you think you want. Um, and they are very, very different things. Um, so I went in with the expectation that I could walk the Camino with no problems. Yes, it would be hard and it would be challenging, but I thought there's no— there's— I'll just be able to walk it because I walk frequently and I'm, I'm young and fit and healthy. Um, and on the first Camino, I think on day 3, I was broken and humbled, and my ego took a real, uh, it had a real reality check that actually this is a lot harder than I thought it was going to be physically, emotionally. I was like a deer in headlights, had no idea what I was supposed to be doing. I remember thinking on day 1 that there would be not necessarily a marching band and like a big banner saying, hey, Cass, here's the Camino, this is the way you go, but something. I thought there would be something that would tell me, this is the way that you go to start the Camino, and there was nothing.

So it's more just like a quiet, oh, okay, this is on me.

Yeah, this is on me.

I've got to do this.

I have to figure it out. Um, and you, you become better at seeing the signs of where you need to be going. But it was, it was definitely a reality check. Um, so the physically, I was broken on day 3.

Um, I know she went dark for— there was like a week where she went really dark. Like, we were like, oh, we're not getting much from her. Like, uh, like, I could— you could feel her energy was just in a world of hurt.

I was in a world of hurt.

And it wasn't just physical, it was emotional despair and physical despair and And that's what I wanted to talk about. It's like when you commit to something, and like she's committed to a Camino publicly, like everyone at home knows she's walking a Camino. Like, like I'd say some pretty like thoughts of quitting and thoughts of maybe I can't do this and all those thoughts, like, like who am I to think I can do this? But then also you get the ego is like, well, why could everyone else do it? How come I can't do it? And I think that that's why you put yourself in extreme situ— in this extreme situation. You didn't know you needed this.

No.

But your heart knew you needed it. Like, you got what you needed. You thought you were going just to have some nice time exercising in the fields.

Yeah, yeah, it was nice.

And instead you were very quickly, as you said, humbled.

Very humbled.

And then you have to, um, look at it like you have to sort of zoom out and look at the bigger picture and And, um, I'd love to hear your thought process, like how you adapted your mindset. I suppose you would have—

would—

that's what you were doing, to think, okay, like, I need to reassess this.

Yeah, yeah. And, uh, yeah, and the humbled word— I was definitely humbled. So, um, uh, the Camino— people from all ages of life and all walks of life walk the Camino. And I was walking with people who were much older than me, in their 70s, and, and people who were in worse— well, I would say not as good physical shape as, as I was, and they were not broken. So I was like, how, how can you do it and I can't do it? Why is this so hard? Um, but my body physically stopped me from being able to move on day— after day 3. Um, and I had to take 2 rest days, which really bruised me.

It really bruised me.

Um, to be—

I'm like young and fit and I'm on rest days on day 4.

And I had planned to walk, I'd planned to walk 25-ish kilometers a day, but I had to stop. And I had to stop in a place, it actually turned out to be a really lovely place for my soul and for my heart. I had a wonderful albergue owner who looked after me.

What you needed.

Yes, what I needed, yes. Someone to care for me and for me to receive some care. And then I had to readjust my plans. So the 25 Ks that I thought I was gonna be able to walk every day, I couldn't. I think when I finally started walking again, the first day I walked 7 kilometers. It took me between 4 and 5 hours.

That's nearly crawling. It's nearly crawling.

And I was nearly crawling and the pain wasn't completely gone, but it was bearable enough with breaks every 10 minutes, taking my pack off. I had, I think I had to, I had to readjust my expectations because I thought I was going to finish the Camino in X number of days. 800 kilometers divided by 25 is however many days. And it did not pan out that way.

Um, I love that, how you said you had to readjust your expectations. So, yeah, and I think that readjusting our expectations of ourselves is actually showing yourself kindness and grace. It's— would you feel like it was that sort of a process?

Yes, it absolutely was. Um, and I had to— there was a lot of self-love and a lot of compassion and kindness. And I guess probably digging down into it, why am I actually here? Am I here to try and smash out 25 kilometers a day? Am I here to— if I continue doing that, I will injure myself so much so that I won't actually be able to finish the commitment that I've made. And I really—

Was there a gold medal for getting there the fastest?

No, there's no medals. There's no medals for getting there the fastest. There's no medals for taking no rest days. There's no medals for anything.

You walk the kilometers, you do get a little nice certificate at the end, but it doesn't matter how long it takes you to get there or how you get there.

How you get there? No, no, there's no gold medals for, for pushing through and limping into Santiago. There's no gold medals.

No. And do you think that, um, were you reflecting on potentially your upbringing or anything like that go, go, go, like philosophy? Like you've got to get it done and So much so that you miss the middle part because you're so busy trying to get to the end, like, as fast as possible. And, and I think that the Camino is designed to do exactly that, to— well, from what you've told me, to teach you that the end, the destination, is not the point.

It's not the point. And so reaching the— reaching Santiago de Compostela and going to the cathedral is a beautiful experience, but it's actually not point of the journey. The destination is in each step. It's in, it's in listening to yourself and knowing what you are capable of and, and, uh, giving grace and compassion and loving yourself every step of the way and appreciating that every step that you take over the 800 kilometers, however long it takes you, however you do it, whether you carry your pack or you don't carry your pack, you, you take a bus or you walk every single step of the way— everyone's Camino is different and they have And the one thing that I learned, one of many things that I learned, is that it has to be your Camino. So however is right for you is right for you. And if you try to keep up with people physically when they're walking, if you try to stay in the same places as people, you— it won't end up being your Camino. And my Camino was very— both Caminos were very different to what I thought they were going to be. Equally with the second one, I thought I would complete it in X number of days based on a certain number of kilometers per day, and I didn't. Did you not learn that lesson? No, it turns out I hadn't learned that lesson the first time.

Second dose of, um, she didn't get it yet, come on, we gotta just throw some more stuff at her, she didn't get it.

Um, but I think, I think the society that we're brought up in is there's— if, if no pain, no gain, uh, the first person to the line wins, um, you know, second place and, and people who come last don't, don't get a medal. Like, it's— it, it is— you really, you learn to unlearn the conditioning of of childhood and society to run your own race.

Yes, you really run your own race. There you go, there's the clanger. Because side note, you get that the Camino is a metaphor for life.

It is, it absolutely is.

It is a total metaphor, and I think you've just hit the total nail on the head with run your own race, adjust your expectations, show yourself kindness.

Compassion, grace. Yeah.

Like, listen to yourself, your body. So if we want to look at the Camino like regular life, are you bashing yourself to get something done for work, a work deadline, or overcommitting to social things, overcommitting to activities for kids? Over— like, are you overcommitting? And whose race are you running? Like, the Camino, I think, really And I think it's great you did a second Camino because it was like you— it's life can get in the way and you unlearn what you realize. Like, Cass was in a beautiful space that she gifted herself that time to go inwards and for the Camino to show her all these aspects that needed adjustment, basically, for the kindness and the compassion for yourself. And so I love you had that second one that went, you weren't listening. Like, you might have heard us, but you didn't keep— like, you got it. We want you to hear this again.

Yep.

Run your own race with kindness and compassion for yourself.

Yeah.

Like, um, and look, Captain Guilty here of overcommitting. And I've had, uh, like, I am not good with the no. Let's practice no again. Everyone say no. Say it again. No.

No is a whole sentence.

It is a complete answer. No explanation needed. So like, where have you overcommitted in your life? Like, you were overcommitting to the number of kilometers you thought you could do. You weren't providing yourself with enough rest time.

Yeah.

Because you'd allocated like a set amount of, this is gonna be my rest, and on these days I'll be flitting around towns.

Yes, yes.

And it's like, actually no. Like, as we said yesterday, rest is important as nutrition, as sleep. Rest is different to sleep. And I think that that is, I'll just touch lightly on the central nervous system. topic again because our central nervous systems are running at a 9 out of 10 all the time. So we get thrown little things and we're bumped over to explosion.

Yeah.

Um, and so rest is a part of bringing that central nervous system back into balance. And so the Cassis Camino, I think, is, um, such a great, um, way to show where you need to find yourself some compassion and grace. Like, do you need to look at your calendar and scrub out some things. Like, what are the non-essentials? And another thing, and I'm talking to all you tidiers out there, and I like— this is me too— sometimes in order to buy yourself grace, you need to leave the dishes in the sink before work.

Mm-hmm.

Like, if that means that you can have a 3-minute sit-down with your coffee just to center and the dishwasher's not stacked, so be it. Because taking that 3 minutes, like, we don't understand it. You don't need to go on a retreat for a week. You don't need to take months off to walk Camino. It's a little— it's micro moments of grace.

Yeah.

That you can gift yourself, that you need to, that I am ordering you to gift yourself. I said there'd be no homework in this, but giving yourself the gift of grace, like instead of doing your to-do list in the shower, like just enjoy the water. Like feel that, how nice it is. It's just a split second of awareness. It takes no more time. But I think micro gifts of grace— like, look at your social calendar. Are there things that you've said yes to that you're doing out of obligation because you should? Like, do we even bring up the word should? Not yet.

Should, should, should be eliminated.

Should is, as our darling Maureen says, should is the biggest swear word in the English language. Yeah, whenever you are shoulding on yourself, it is For someone else's expectations. It's not like you're not saying, I want to do that.

No.

You're like, I should do that.

It's like, clean the kitchen, I should see that person, I should blah blah blah.

So beautiful, Maureen. She says we actually need a should jar. The should jar is the swear jar. And every time you should do something, just notice. That's the only thing I want you to do now. Every time you say the word should, Just see why should you? Like, why should you do it? And does it come from a heart desire to do it? And if it does, I think you'll find you're not using the word should.

Yeah.

Like I should do 25 kilometers a day. Why?

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

To finish it in a set amount of days. Why?

Why? What's the point? Like what? Like you said, there's no gold medal for. completing it in X number of days.

There is—

you don't get a special certificate. All the certificates are the same.

And there's certainly no gold medal for burning yourself out. I can promise you, you're the only one that's going to be left like broken. No one's give— like, there's no gold medal for that. Like, so what are we racing towards? Like, there's no prize at the end for shoulding on yourself all day and like fulfilling all these obligations. Like, pare it back. You like give yourself some grace. I'm going to— I don't— have I told this story? I don't know if I have. The one where I was, I was having a pity party. I was at work, I was single mum, 3 kids, they're all young. I was— had a— Scanties was my side hustle at the time. I had a job as well, and I was in deep pity party. I was like, oh, my life is so hard. I am so— I just want— I want money. I want— I want— why can't I just be rich? And I was like, okay, pity party, we're gonna— I'm gonna play this with you. And I used to play this game with my kids, and you can play it too. Play this game, and it's called In a Perfect World. And so I was like, okay, pity party, Miss Pity Party, in a perfect world, what would you— what would happen right now? It's like, oh, I'd have money and I'd book this amazing holiday and I'd go to this beautiful hotel room. And I was like, okay, you can say— okay, pick, pick a place. We're going to that place. We're in the hotel room. What would you do next? And I was like, oh my God, I would like, you know, those fresh, beautiful, like crisp hotel sheets. I'd hop in the bed and I would draw those blinds and I would just sleep forever. And I was like, okay, well, let's just examine this. So you're gonna go on an exotic holiday, close the blinds, hop into bed in a dark room and sleep forever. Um, maybe you're just tired. Do you see what I mean? Like all the, all the, um, I had just been running myself on empty. So I was like, okay, I left work early, I got the kids done fast, I think probably fed them something out of a packet, and I got into bed. And I didn't go to sleep straight, but I just, I hopped into bed at like 6 PM and just, I gifted myself the space of rest and then an early night and a really good night's sleep. So my pity party was actually my core need at the time, was I was just exhausted. And like, how many people do we think are exhausted right now?

Yeah.

Like, hands up if you're exhausted. Well, I'm not exhausted right now.

Not anymore. Not anymore. Not anymore.

But that's because like, you can, you can clear your calendar a lot easier than you think. And if that means leaving the kids' beds unmade in the morning after they haven't made them after you've nagged them, leaving your own bed unmade, leaving the dishes in the dishwasher, not doing the laundry for 3 days, like, Where can you buy yourself some grace by eliminate? Let's just eliminate the shoulds straight away.

Yeah, yeah, it would make a massive difference.

I think so. So, so that's how I see that translating from like your Camino learnings into real life is then there's no gold medal for having the the washing done three days, like washing done every day. Like you don't get like you don't get eliminated if you. Don't do the washing every day. Like, you don't get— You're on a game show. No, it's not a game show. I know they're not going to eliminate you. You don't get like voted off. No, she didn't do the washing, the beds are unmade, she's out. Do you know what I mean though?

It's what, what are you actually doing it for? What do you—

Like, if it's at your detriment. Yeah, like if it's at the detriment of your central nervous system, that's the point I'm trying to make.

Yeah, yeah, the yeah.

Like as you said, it would have been to your detriment if you pushed on because you should be doing 25 kilometers a day. Yes. So if it's going to be to your detriment to make sure the dishwasher stacked before work, don't do it. Yeah. Like leave the clothes on the floor. Like if it's going to be to your detriment, like if it's not gonna help you right, if you're totally regular, like. And this is what I've learned, is like some days I wake up and I'm just like, bang, yes, I can't wait to get the house all beautiful and sparkly and clean and tidy and organized. And I'm actually fueled to do it. Like, I, I want to do it, not I should do it. And it hap— like, the house will eventually get tidy, but if it's going to give you some grace to have a messy house for a couple of days, take it.

If it feeds you.

If it feeds you, yes. That's it, she knows sayings, see?

Whatever you, whatever you're trying to do, is this, is this activity going to feed me or is it going to eat me?

Completely.

Is it going to feed my soul or is it going to eat at my soul?

Yeah, so maybe sometimes, like, maybe you can cope with having the floors on— the clothes on the floor for a day, and then it might start eating at you. So then it's actually to your benefit to tidy them up. But if you can go a day or two, like, I promise you they'll be on the floor the next day anyway. Like, they're gonna be back on the floor because it's just the nature of How the world works. Well, maybe I don't have my children trained very well, but—

No, no.

Things just get messy again. And so it's like, do you want to spend your whole life just tidying up, or do you want to start investing in your soul?

Yeah.

And look, as I said, if the tidying does— if like some people love it, yeah, and they enjoy it. That's like me with cooking. Like, I love cooking, but I will only like do one of my big cook-ups when I feel inspired to. I don't like if I feel like I have to push through anything. It's funny, actually, I did something yesterday and I did 2 things. Cass was having a rest because she's just come from Europe, so she's still time adjusting. And when she got up, I said 2 things to her. I said, oh, I struggled through this proposal. No, I limped through this proposal. And then I had a play with, um, you— with these videos and how we can cut them up and use them and stuff and just listen to the language. Listen to the language you use. Are you limping through it or are you having a play with it? Like, my— and I said it and I was like, oh, my language clearly just showed me what I should be doing. Like, one is eating me. Yeah. And one is feeding me. Yeah.

And you noticed in real time?

It was like bang. I was like, oh, I get it. I just limped through that and I had a play with that.

The awareness.

I know. And then I had this crazy dream last night. It was that my finger— I'd cut my finger with this knife, but it was like cut at the top, not all the way through but nearly all the way through. And I was holding it together, and I was at this party, and I was asking someone for help, asking so many people, yelling for help. Yeah, yelling for help. And no one would help me. They're like, I'll just get a Band-Aid. I said, no, my whole finger's cut through. Like, I need something more than a Band-Aid. I need some help, at least some of that like non-stick gauze and a bandage. Like I need help, and no one would listen. And, um, we have this great book, um, Annette Noontull, The Body Is the Barometer of the Soul. And so I will loop back around into that because I want to talk about the Camino and where Cass hurt in her body and how it was indicating what her soul was needing, like, to be heard.

Yeah.

Um, and so I looked up the book and I looked up this particular finger, the right hand, the top finger, and it was basically you need to do what you need to do for yourself, basically. Yeah. And so this chakra too was the heart chakra, which was also like soul devotion. And it was like, literally, don't cut yourself off.

Yeah.

That was literally the message. Do not cut yourself off. And these videos that Cass and I are recording, we're doing this, like, lights us up. I'm sure you can tell by the energy, but They're so fun, and I think that that's why we're sharing them with you, is because it's our way to show you how we're figuring this messy life out and how we're finding ways to listen back inwards so that we can answer those questions that we're like, what is this all about? Like, why? You don't need to go on Camino.

Yeah.

You don't even need to watch us. You just need to like start feeding your soul and eliminate all the things that are eating it, really.

Yeah.

There's— so that's, that's really, that's it. You don't need to walk that far. But I do want to bring up a little bit about, like, especially because you are fit, like you walk all the time, 25 kilometers even with a pack. I feel like your body was showing you it didn't matter how fit you were. I feel like your body was going to use Like the Camino and the physicality of it to bring up the areas in your life that you needed to listen to and to like hear.

Yeah, yeah, because the Camino gives you what you want, not what you think you need. Um, so on the first Camino, day 3, I had severe pain in my left knee and it, it was so painful that I couldn't walk. And you think, okay, You know, you're carrying a pack. The pack wasn't that heavy. You're walking up and down hills. Yes, that's, that's going to be challenging. It's all— it's, it's new. Even though I am fit, it's still, uh, a lot of use for your body.

No problem.

That all makes sense. But when you're being— I guess the— so the physical side made sense, but then with looking at the— so the left knee, um—

Left is spiritual.

Left is spiritual. Um, and knee is about, um, uh, direction? Direction and flexibility.

Oh, okay. Oh, I think it's flexibility.

No, so maybe stability, uh, stability or flexibility, but it's, it's essentially about— so looking up the Annette Noontil book, which I messaged Suze when I was broken crying in the room, what does Annette say about the left knee?

And I sent it to her and she's like, Yep, that's pretty bang on.

Yeah, so it's about— the left knee was essentially about the direction in life and about trusting the flow of life. Um, and the, uh, if, if you're not trusting the flow of life, it can be— you can be inflexible.

Uh, um, would that be your 25 kilometers to 30 kilometers a day that we've got to do and we're racing to the end?

Maybe, maybe, perhaps, perhaps. And, and really, and An expectation of myself that had no value. There was no value. There was no— yeah, there was no value to it.

I love that. Let's— we're gonna say that again. There was no expectation of yourself that has no value.

There was no value because there's— it was a—

That's a clanger.

It was just— yeah, it was a self-imposed expectation, but it— there was no—

It didn't feed you.

No, no, it— and it ate me because I had this Imposed, enforced strict rule about how many kilometers I wanted to walk per day. But by doing that, you— I'm not listening to myself. I'm not listening to my soul. I'm not listening to what's right for me. I'm not, not clearly not listening to my physical body.

Um, so it made you listen?

It made me listen. It, it literally stopped me. My body was like, we are not going any further. There are some issues here that you need to address. And yes, you can ice and ibuprofen and elevation and all of the things, but there's a deeper layer to it. And if you keep pushing, when— well, we're just going to stop you completely and you're not going to be able to walk, finish the walk at all.

You will listen. You will listen. You haven't been listening, so eventually, yeah, you will listen.

And so my end goal was to walk the whole Camino.

So you took All the expectations on how it was going to happen away.

Yes.

And so the value to you became— and the value to your heart was like, how about we just finish it?

Yeah, yeah.

And then you adapted.

Yes.

In order to achieve the goal that you wanted to do for your heart. Like, you wanted to finish it.

I genuinely wanted to finish it. It is— it's, it's a beautiful walk. You make wonderful connections with human beings that might come into your life for half an hour or a day or 3 weeks. Um, it's, it's an incredible part of Spain. It's a huge— it is one of the greatest achievements of my life, walking the Camino. And now I've been lucky enough to do it twice. It is an incredible achievement. But it's, it's not about how— and you learn this very quickly, um, or you don't. Totally. Everyone's very different and everyone's Camino is their own journey. But I learned that reaching Santiago is not the— that's not actually the goal. The goal is in finding your own journey and running your own race.

And adapting your conditions.

Yeah.

To a way that feeds you, because you don't want to— like, there's no point doing like that. It's too long. Like, you know how you can like knuckle down and push through for a short amount of time, but that sort of a journey you cannot just push through because you won't. You'll be carted off in an ambulance.

You will, you will.

So it's learning to adjust the conditions to make it enjoyable.

Yeah. And to achieve the thing that you want to achieve with adapted conditions. So I—

And removing the expectations that have no value. Yeah.

And, and the, the expectation that I would walk 25 kilometers a day had no— there was no value to that for me whatsoever. So I adjusted. I think, uh, I walked The first day after my injury, I walked 7 Ks, and then the next day I walked 8 Ks, and then I walked 10 Ks. I took buses, I took trains, I had my backpack transferred. All of the things that very cocky, sure me at the start—

Was not gonna do.

Was not gonna do. No, I will carry my pack every day and I will walk 25 kilometers and I will never take a bus and I will walk every single step of the Camino. Yeah, that didn't happen. So I did. I learned that lesson on the first one, on the first Camino, and then the second Camino provided different challenges, more injuries, and a deeper understanding that it's my own race to run. I'm not competing with anyone else. I will finish at the stage, at the time when I finish, in the capacity that I, that I can commit to.

Yes. And that there's no point doing it miserable.

There is no point doing it miserable. There's no point that, like, there's no point for limping over the line into Santiago.

Yeah, broken.

Broken.

It's like, what is that? Are you like screaming to the pearly gates?

Yeah.

Like racing to, like pushing through to get there. Like that, like I think that it's such a metaphor for life. It's like there is no point doing it broken.

No.

Like there's no point doing it broken. Like you've gotta adjust so the journey along the way is manageable, is feeding you, like feeding your heart and your soul. Like, there's no point walking, like sticking to her 25 kilometers a day and being miserable and in pain. And I think that, like, as a metaphor for how we're living our lives, like, are you, are you doing that? Are you pushing so hard that you are limping through it, like miserable and pain? Like, I think that's— we just got to take the foot off the gas.

Yeah. Yeah.

And adjust our conditions so that we are actually enjoying each day. Like, of course there's going to be pressures, like always there's going to be pressures, but if you're already at like a 9 out of— I use this all the time— where are you on the scale, 1 to 10? If you're at a 9 out of 10, you get a 3 event, you're at a 12, you're gone. You're screaming profanities at the cat, you're stomping around the room and Like, you're done. You're screaming at people in traffic. So it's like, we need to operate at about a 5 out of 10 because you do need some pressures, otherwise we'd get nothing done. Like, we can't just like lie around on the couch all day.

No, no.

Like, and you would get bored. That wouldn't feed you. That would eventually flip and eat you.

Yeah.

So it's like, lying on the couch can be too— like, anything can be 2 things.

Yeah, yeah.

Something like no pressure whatsoever can end up eating you.

Yeah.

Too much pressure eats you. So it's like finding the balance of things. And sometimes lying on the couch will be feeding you, and sometimes lying on the couch will be eating you.

Yeah.

And it's all dependent on where— and only you will know where you're at. Yeah.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And back again, bring everything back to the Camino because it is— they are life lessons in this micro— this safe little bubble. Um, uh, you know, some days feel really great and I walked 32 kilometers. Some days I only walked 10 kilometers.

But on those days, did you just see how you were feeling? You didn't like commit, I'm doing 32. It was more like, okay, let's just see.

Yeah.

And I would have to say that's one of our favorite phrases. It's like, let's just see, let's just try. And when it feels good, keep going.

Yeah.

And if it stops feeling good, yeah, don't keep going. Like, stop. Yeah. Like, it's literally—

And there was one day—

Oh, that just made me laugh. I was thinking about that. You know when you do like a big closet like clean out and you've pulled everything out and then you get to that part where you've now got to put it all back and you're like, this doesn't feel good anymore. I think I've overcommitted here. I think I overcommitted. This reminded me of that. And I reckon nearly everyone has been in that place before. Sleep in a swim of— in a sea of clothes and deal with it tomorrow.

Close the door and pretend that's not there.

Sleep on the couch. That didn't happen. Sorry. That's all right.

Um, but there was one day, um, and I, I guess the lessons from the first Camino did translate into the second Camino. There were different lessons that I learned on the second Camino, but the second one I approached very differently. I didn't have a set— I thought maybe I'll walk 20 kilometers a day. It's still an 800-kilometer walk. If I walk 20 kilometers a day, that's about 6 weeks, um, with some rest days. But I very much listened to my body. I listened to my heart and my soul about how, how far I wanted to walk each day. And there was one day where I was just— I was, I was having a pity party on myself. Um, it, it was a terrible day. I was really down in the dumps, and I had initially thought, well, maybe I'll walk 18 kilometers. And then I, I saw there was a town at 10 kilometers, and I was like—

I was literally dragging myself, like I was dragging my poles on the ground behind me.

Like Eeyore. I was, I was Eeyore-ing my way through the walk. And I thought, that's it, I'm gonna stop at the 10-kilometer town and just— and then I'm done. I'll find somewhere to stay and then, you know, I don't even need to make up the kilometers the next day. I'll just walk however far I feel like walking.

So, which, which also I will just say, like on a Camino, when you've sort of mentally prepared your places, if you only go half a distance one day, it recalculates the whole route. So you've kind of got that in your head. It's like, oops, we got cut off then. But okay, so you were like, I was doing 18 kilometers.

Yes.

Um, but you dragged yourself into a town that was 10 kilometers. Yes.

Um, and I really— I, I had— I was, I was in an Eeyore state. I was just hating every moment of it. And I remember thinking at one point I could just curl up on the road and just sleep and wait for someone to come and pick me up.

Oh, so you were— you're really— I was really in the depths. And I think, um, that's just something I wanted to bring up when I was saying about how you plan which towns you're going into. And, um, so after what you knew from the first Camino, did you— did you plan your trip differently?

I did.

The second one?

I did, I did. I wanted to give myself maximum flexibility on second Camino. So on the first Camino, I'd booked all of the places that I wanted to stay a couple of days in advance, um, which was great for peace of mind because I knew I had somewhere to stay, but it sucked for flexibility because I had no flexibility.

Mm-hmm.

And if I, if I came across a beautiful town or somewhere that, that called to my heart— I remember walking through, uh, this beautiful— I think it was a monastery on top of a hill, and there was a beautiful place to stay right next to the monastery, and I had booked ahead, and I, I was standing there thinking, I want to stay here. I don't want to go any further. I want to stay here. Um, so on the second Camino, I chose to— I chose maximum flexibility over certainty of a bed. Um, but it allowed me— so on that day when I was— when I thought I was going to do 18 kilometers and I got to the 10 and I really dragged myself into the 10, um—

Were you booked into the 18? No, no, no. So you just left it open?

Yeah.

So you'd learned to keep that flexibility so that you could actually give yourself the ability to choose.

Yes, I could, I could genuinely listen, and I think, um, I could genuinely listen to what my body and what my heart wanted to do on any particular day.

Yeah, I think that's probably a really good, um, like metaphor for life, because are you scheduled so far out with commitments that you're locked into.

Yes.

That you've got no flexibility to listen to how you're feeling and listen to what your body's saying. Listen, like, am I too frazzled? Like, do we need to be scheduling in, like, rest?

Yeah, absolutely.

Like, as an actual diary appointment. And then you have the flexibility if maybe your heart doesn't need to lie on the couch, it wants to go and catch up with a friend for coffee.

Yeah.

It gives you that some space space to move? Like, are we so scheduled, like your first Camino where you was too scheduled that it gave you no option to either break one of your values, which I think the same as me would be wasting— you'd have to waste that accommodation to— so it's sort of like it cuts you down and you sort of pigeonhole yourself into a, into a schedule and a routine.

Yeah.

That might not be to your highest good, that might not bring you— that might not be feeding you. So Yeah. I think have a look at your schedules. Like, are you overcommitting so far out that you don't know— like, you're giving yourself no space to actually decide from your heart if it's something that you want to do that's actually feeding you, or if unexpected things that are going to pop up and then that thing you've committed to is now eating at you.

Yes.

So giving yourself flexibility to be able to adapt to your circumstances in a way that actually does feed you and is not eating you. Like, you know, you always like— and I do this all the time— I commit to something far out in advance and then my week goes crazy or something and I get to the event and I'm like, why did I commit to that?

Yeah.

Because I'm like, I'm exhausted. Like, I didn't factor in I was going to have like 3 kids' birthday parties, 43 sport events. I was going to be out late the night before with another basketball tournament. Like, Yeah. And you've committed to something. So just instead of being the yes person, maybe that— maybe the answer is maybe.

You become maybe.

Or maybe, or I'm gonna have to see how that plays out, instead of a firm commitment. So that it's really— I suppose it's a little bit people pleasing. It's a little bit like buying yourself some grace so that you don't have to go back on your yes. Instead of making a firm commitment, keep it flexible so then you can actually check in with yourself and see, do I want to do that? Is it going to feed me or is it going to eat me?

Yeah. And, and the Camino is it, um, it is, it is, it is life in this little bubble.

Um, well, that's it. It's like a, it's like a fast-track lessons of life. Yes.

But I want to push, or do I want to rest? Do I want to How far do I want to go? Do I want to have a slower day? Do I—

Do I need some support?

Do I need some support?

Do I need some support?

Yeah. Where do I want to stay? Do I want to, uh, go top end and have a luxury night, or do I want to stay with all of the pilgrims in an albergue? Do I want to take the normal road where everyone is, or do I want to take the road less traveled and maybe have a more beautiful experience?

So maybe I just realized that The Camino is really you having the space to make a million decisions, but they're— you're learning to make them for yourself.

Yes.

So you're taken out of society to, like, in a way that the decisions are all solely— you get to focus on making decisions solely for yourself.

Yes.

And you've got no other one, like, there's no one else, which is probably why you got So annoyed, she told a story. Can't remember which day it was about someone texted her for a coffee on the Camino, and it made she blew up. She was storming and stomping around the room, and it was and it was because it was making you make decisions for other people. And then the you're like the Camino is my space. I want to do what I want to do in it. And it's interesting to see that correlated into real life when. Sort of. I think in real life, all these micro decisions that we make for others—they're micros. So one by itself doesn't matter. Like yeah, I can do that for you. I can, I can help you through that. I can help you with that. Whatever the decision is, they're micro. Each one individually doesn't matter. But it's when you amass so many of them that you realize you're all lopsided. It's like I've given all my points. away and haven't filled my cup up. So, so I think the Camino allows you to learn how to come back inside and listen and learn how to make decisions solely on how you're feeling.

Yeah, yeah. And solely for yourself. And it, it— I— it was at the start of the second Camino, um, the place that I stayed the first night was asking for people who had walked a Camino before to share their experience and any advice that, um, the— with people who had never walked a Camino. And it— the owner of the albergue said, oh, Cassandra, would you share your experience and, and some advice? And I was like, oh, flustered. And I was like, oh God, I wasn't expecting this. And I was like, okay, don't stay on your phone, make sure you appreciate the environment and the beauty around you, and, you know, um, really soak it all in. And then I was like, Oh, but don't. Yeah, you know, take a million photos if you want, look at the apps. And in real time, I was like, it is— this is your own journey. Make it your journey, whatever's right for you. If it's—

so you actually changed your answer as you were speaking it? Yeah, as you were speaking it out, you realized actually, no, that was what I needed. Yes, but each Camino is for you.

So, and, and that is the gift of the Camino, is that it's your journey and And you are taken out of real life for a period of time, and, and it is all about you. And you get this beautiful opportunity to come inside it, internal, and into yourself and to feed your soul.

Yeah, does, does like bouncing through the whole Camino with your AirPods in listening to music might feed someone's soul? They might be needing something different to what you're needing, whereas the music might bypass the the thought processes and things that you're trying to get out of it. So there is no— and that's life. There is no right or wrong way for any— like, all you can do is judge on, is it feeding you or is it eating you?

Yes, exactly.

Like, it can only be one of two things. And even if it's eating you just a little bit, that's okay, but you've got to balance it with the feeding. It's a, it's a balance. Life is a balance.

Like, Yeah, it's the yin and yang of life. It's all about the balance.

It is.

And on some days, what fed you the day before might eat you that day. Um, and it, it's the awareness that you have with where— how does this situation or decision or thing or challenge sit? Where's it sitting in my body? Is it sitting, you know, does it fill me with joy, or is it eating at me in my stomach? Or do I have this pain in my throat, or is my heart aching? Or is my head completely scrambled? But the awareness and coming back into your body, and because on the Camino it is all about your body, it's about your soul, but it's about your body. Your body tells you the things that are eating you and the things that are feeding you, and you can—

well, you've got a nice space. Yeah, you've got the nice space and the time to, to allow yourself to check in. Yes. And that's what busy life— we don't like we forget we can create it. It's a split second. Like, the awareness part takes literally that fast. Like, it's just, okay, where am I at?

Yeah.

Like, check in.

Yeah.

Like, am I tired? Am I hungry? Am I, like, exhausted? Am I needing a laugh? Am I needing a cry? Like, what? Like, and you might— and those are where, like, it might take more than that to dig into it, but like, where am I at? Am I good or am I bad? Like, like, where am I at? And if you're feeling irritated, it's a sign. If you're, if you're getting road rage, it's a sign. Like, you'll know your triggers. It's like, where am I at? Okay, okay, did I yell at the coffee pot this morning? No, I didn't. Did I care when I spilled that? No, I didn't. Okay, I'm probably pretty good. Like, I'm probably pretty good. So you'll know your own triggers for what, where you're at. Like, did you know them? And if you don't, just start making a note, like, of when you blow it. Blowing it and then work backwards. Because once you can— you all know when you've lost it and you think back later and go, oh, it's probably a slight overreaction, a bit of an overreaction, I probably didn't need to do that. But then you can work backwards. It's like, well, how did I get there? It's like, oh, that's right, I helped that person last night, so I was a little bit late, and then we had early sports practice the next morning. Like, you can see, it's like, oh, maybe I'm tired, maybe I need to give myself a half an hour meditation, just lie down instead of a lunch. Like, if you're at work, your lunch break. Or sometimes I used to go and sit in my car in my lunch break and put on a meditation, just recline the chair and just lie back. Like, yeah, you'll know what works for you, and you'll know, and you'll just start to recognize the triggers that you have for when you are bubbling up to that level. Because once you start learning it, you don't have to get to an 11 out of 10 anymore. You can actually start managing it when you're around the 7, 8, bring it back.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I think that that's it. It's— and it's, it's you deserve to do this for you.

Yeah.

It's like an allowance.

Permission.

It's permission. It's a permission slip for yourself, written to you by you, that I'm allowed to fit. Like, we do have a point. Like, we have a point. We'll get there, um, for all of this. And that's about like, from once you peel off all these layers, then you can start to create a life that you love.

Yeah.

Because you're starting to understand your cues. You'll be able to get more in balance with yourself. And when you're in balance, that's when ideas can flow and creativity can flow. But you've got to peel off these layers of the onion. And I can promise you, the job is never done. It's never done. It's never done. You think— I remember back when I got divorced first, like, I went— like, I started my spiritual journey before— the year before I got divorced. And I think a year after, I was like, oh yeah, I'm good. I'm fine. I'm so good. I got it all. I know it all. I know this. I know that. Oh no. And it's so, it's kind of like, I look back on me now and go, oh, you're so cute. You're so cute. Um, nice, but no, because like there's so many layers and they come and they can come up at the most surprising times and life will give you little things like the Camino. gave you, like a sore, sore hips or knees, like you might not be getting them in life, but life will show you, yeah, where you like— where— which is the next layer that needs to be peeled off.

Yeah, yeah. Um, and the Camino, it gives— it is— it's a, it's a gift of time, but you don't need to walk a Camino to, to know where your triggers are or to, to be aware of where something's sitting in your body. You can do that anytime. It just is— it is a— it's a— it's a gift of space and time, and you have these condensed experiences which you can then take the learnings and apply them in daily life.

Yes, you can. Yeah. So it's like taking these— it's micro moments. I think that it's like— well, that's like everything. Like, it's never— I know we bang on about this, the destination, but it's the micro moments along the way, and that's life. Like, you might have like the most— like, you know, like a concert you've been waiting for. You were on the queue for the tickets, you're so excited about it, you get it, the concert happens, but then it's gone.

Yeah.

So it's like the one— that bit, it wasn't like— it was the micro moment of the joy when you got the tickets. It was a micro moment of like the planning the outfit. Like, it was the micro moment of like, where will we go beforehand? Like, what music— what playing the playlist of the artist before you go to the news. Like, it's all those micro moments along the way.

Yeah. Where you were Where the joy is there and you can feel the joy and you allow yourself, yes, um, the joy.

Yeah, so tapping into those. So that's, that's the goal. I said we're not giving homework and all I've done is dish out homework left, right, and center. Maybe I should have been a teacher. Definitely not. Um, but just like micro moments and gifting yourself permission to do things to make— like, that's what I think self-care is. Self-care is not the eye mask, it's not the spa day, it's not the— it's not the thing. It's the gifting yourself the space and the time to do something that makes you feel good.

Yeah. And by making yourself feel good, you regulate your nervous system.

Exactly. So that is not bad homework. No, I don't think— like, I am literally your homework is to find yourself pockets of space to gift yourself the time to make yourself feel good.

Yeah.

However that is, it doesn't matter. Yours is good. Like, you might love to mow the lawn.

Yeah.

Not me. It might— like, the smell of fresh-cut grass. You might put some music on and like dance around and mow the lawn. Like, if that makes you feel good, go and do it. Like, I actually— it's really funny because sometimes what is going to make me feel good is the tidy house, and I'll put on the music and it will Like, I gift myself the time to get the house all nice and tidy and sparkly.

Yeah.

But I'm coming from a place of, that's what is gonna light me up. I really want to do it at the time. And it's not all the time, I can promise you. My house is a mess half the time because at the time, I think the thought of tidying it up is like, ugh, I can't be bothered. Like, are you getting an ugh feeling or are you getting a, yeah, I can't wait, this is gonna be so— I can't wait. Yeah, the wiggle, the wiggle. Is it giving you uh, or is it giving you wiggle? That's that's your homework. Is it giving you uh? Is it giving you wiggle? And as I said, like I love cooking as a meditation, but sometimes we eat toast. Often we eat pretty basic. Like I have to be in the flow, and as I said, I'll cook eight dishes at once for one person because my kids won't eat any of it. But when you're in the flow, do it, and when you're not, if it feels uh. Or if it's a must-do, do the bare minimum. Yeah. And buy yourself some time around it for things that give you the, the wiggle or the, or the release, the breath.

Yeah, the physical body sigh.

Like, as— and also as like a busy mum, sometimes like leave 20 minutes early and buy yourself 20 minutes in the car park waiting to pick the kids up from school. Like, like, you, you are sort of safeguarding that 20 minutes. And maybe you close your eyes, maybe you put some music on, maybe you— who knows what— like journal in Notes, video journal. I actually find video journaling really therapeutic, which is just pressing record and talking to my phone.

Yeah.

You don't need to post it on YouTube, like you don't need to put it out there, but I'm not a writing journaler. I've never— it never it was never something that actually made me feel better. It was only with this move to the US that I started pressing record. And lots of them I haven't shared, and I needed them for my own processing. But I've shared the ones which I think, um, are shining the light for myself, like where I have my realizations.

Mm-hmm.

Because if I've shone the light for myself, it might shine a light for you as well. And sometimes you just gotta hear things in a different way or with a different example. And you go, oh, okay.

Yeah.

It's actually not that hard. But I will also preface that with, I forget all the time. Like, I've just been in a 3-month universal washing machine where I forgot to connect in. I wasn't aware, and I was literally banging my head against a brick wall. Like, when I— and, and I saw it, I woke up one day after I'd had a complete meltdown about a salad in Ralphs grocery store. And long story short, but this salad Occupied my entire day. It ended up being a disaster. The whole day was a disaster, but it was enough to trigger me the next morning into the realization that I had not checked in properly with myself for three months and had just been overled by the shoulds and expectations. And those like so this is like we're like learning to walk. It's like learning to walk as a baby. Like we are going to fall down and forget and maybe go back to crawling for a while or. I think I just curled up in a fetal position, but whilst banging out at a keyboard, like all this execution, but nothing do do do. Nothing was heart-led. It was all brain, like execute, like shoulds, like like it was I was bashing yeah bashing the square peg into the round hole really well. Like I'm really good at hitting that thing, which is the point, but of like. Real life is going to do that to you, whereas a Camino, you're— you are like, it's a secluded, safe bubble where you have like— you— it's very hard to flip into 3D world because you're not in the 3D world. But as you said, even with the second Camino, you quickly forgot the lessons from the first one and you had to be reminded them again.

So reminded, um, yeah, I had to be reminded, and it— and those lessons kept coming throughout the entire second Camino. Um, but I was— I, on the second Camino, I was more open and more receptive, and the messages came quicker, and I recognized them quicker.

Mm-hmm.

I recognized my triggers. Um, and it was a much— it was a much more demanding Camino, I think, because I was more open to the messages, more open to receiving, uh, more open to tapping into myself and to what was right for me. And it was deeper and more challenging than I had ever anticipated. But I did go into the second one with the same approach as the first one. I'm just going for a nice walk across Spain.

So the point is, you forget quickly. Like, we are, as I said, but, but as you said, you remember the lessons faster. Like, you remember, oh, that's right, I've just screamed at the coffee pot. Yeah, maybe I, I know what this is now. Like, I know, okay, what was that? We need to like go back and start feeding myself a little bit more. I need to bring my central nervous system, calm it back down a bit. How do I do that? Okay, I know this works, I know that works, I know this works. What do I have time for today? Okay, I can put that one in play. And sometimes also you might think, like me going for a walk on the beach, that usually calms my central nervous system. And one day I was like, just, I was in my head and I was like, right, I know I'm in my head, I need to do something. I went down to the beach. It was windy, it was blowy, it wasn't pleasant. And instead of bashing myself through it, I actually went, actually, no, right now that's not what I want. And I think what I did was I think I went up and put on like a funny movie or something. Like, the beach walk wasn't going to do it for me that day because every moment of every day you're different.

Yeah.

So you need different things.

You need different things in your toolkit. And maybe it's a walk on the beach, maybe it's a meditation, meditation, maybe it's breathing, maybe it's, uh, catching up with a friend, maybe it's—

Like a sad movie. Do you need a release? Like, I will prescribe sad movies for you, and I will be doing a recommended movie list. Yeah, both for aha moments and both for like just a good tearjerker, because sad movies are such a good way to release the tears. And like, I even cry in like those sort of like soppy ads sometimes. Like, why am I crying in an ad?

Yes, as someone who calls Australia home. Every time.

Um, but so you need different things at all times. And so don't let your magic toolbox also be a round peg in a square hole.

Yes.

The other way around, square peg, round hole. There's a peg and there's a hole and it doesn't fit. And don't bash it. And even if it's just because it's in my magic toolbox, yeah, doesn't mean it's the right tool for the time. Exactly. Yes. Okay, so there you go. Magic toolbox. Awareness and just giving yourself some space to feel good. Yeah. That's it. We love you lots. Bye!