The question that changed everything "Is this really it? | Susie on the Sofa with Cass

Hello, welcome to Susie Unshaped, and this is Susie on the sofa with Cass, my darling sister, who has just pressed the boggle button on her life, which is where you blow it all up and see where the pieces land. Well, she did it a while ago now, but this is where I decided to talk about it, tell the story about how one does start living their life From their heart and like peel back all the layers of like expectations and shoulds and all of the things that have gotten you to the point where you're in your life and you just feel, oh, something's not right. So actually, let's just start by opening up. Like, how long did the process take for you to even like realize that something needed to change? Was it like a big, long, slow process that crept in, or there was a like— Tell us a bit about like why you realized you had to make such a big change.

I think, um, it was a slow build over a number of years. Um, I got to my 40s-ish or just late 30s and my life hadn't panned out the way I thought it was going to. Um, I thought I would have a family by then and I didn't, and my job wasn't bringing me any satisfaction when I thought it would. And I changed jobs multiple times thinking, oh, maybe it's just a different company, maybe this company's not quite right. But, um, so it was a culmination combination of things that it was a slow burn to get to it, but I, I had this realization, actually, this is not for me anymore. Something seriously needs to change.

Um, I think that's probably quite a common— Yeah, a common feeling amongst people. Like, you know, when you're just like, is this all there is? Is this all there is? Is this it?

Yeah, yeah.

And that is the big question, isn't it? It's like What, what is the point? Like, why are we here? Like, what is the point of all of this? I think especially our generation, we've come up through the ranks. We had the introduction of the internet, we had the introduction of the smartphone, we had the introduction of the social— the social media, the Instagram and the YouTube. Um, but we've had so many new evolutions of technology and how life goes that I think we haven't really had a chance to just like peel it all back.

And we—

like, the simplicity of life for our parents in the '80s, it was much more basic and more simple. And I think that now there's so many extra layers of like signal that can tell you, this is what you should be doing, this is what you should be doing, this will make you happy, this will make you happy, buy me, I'll make you happy, buy me, I'll make you like whatever it is.

Yeah.

We have— we are the generation that's had this influx of everything telling us how to be happy. And I think sometimes you need to do something drastic just to blow it all up and then rebuild the pieces.

Yeah, and figure out what is truly special and what's truly beautiful and what actually means something to me. And it's not the new whatever. It's not a bigger something or else. Uh, something or other. It's, it's—

yeah, it's not even like the fancy holiday because, you know, that anticipation of the fancy holiday or the concert that you've been so looking forward to, and you know that feeling after it, like it's over, it's kind of like, uh, post-holiday blues. Yeah, it was like, it was good, but it was— it's actually the anticipation that's more exciting. Yeah. And Cass and I went with our other sister and our cousin and a close friend and, and Mikey P, our sister's husband. on this trip to Coachella. It was going to be— it was like a life, um, not old, was it? Like, like, you know the word, like a, like a once in a lifetime. There we go, once in a lifetime opportunity that we could all take time off to go to Coachella. But it was actually the journey around that we did before Coachella where I actually enjoyed the most, not the actual Coachella concert itself.

No, it was, it was the reason for the trip, but it was It was the buildup and the chat beforehand and, and the activities we did around Coachella and then the chat afterwards and the memories. That's, that's what it was. That was what was so special about it.

So I suppose the cliché for that would be the journey. I know you've all heard it a million times before. It's never the destination, it's the journey that matters. And Cass did a very big journey and walked 2 Caminos Back, like post, uh, 14-month trip to Europe.

14 months, yeah.

So like a Camino at the front end and a Camino at the back end. And we've covered the Camino trips in a separate video, which I'll link below. But I want to actually talk about probably, A, why did you decide to walk a Camino? And B, and this is from knowing how I know you were at the end of the first Camino, what happened when the first one ended?

So I guess the The decision to walk the Camino came, uh, from inspiration from a very, very dear friend. Um, she walked the Camino, I think, in 2017, and it was life-changing for her. And I was at the stage where I'd hit the boggle button. I'd quit my job, um, got rid of all my belongings, uh, I had taken a 3-month road trip around Australia, moved back to my hometown Brisbane, um, and the next decision was to go walk a Camino. Um, and after that, I didn't really know what I was going to do. I would be in Europe, um, uh, but didn't— I had no plans. And that was, that was quite scary and very uncertain. And a lot of people, so many people asked, well, what are you going to do afterwards? And my answer, my honest answer was, I don't know. I actually don't know what I'm going to do. And as I was walking the Camino, the end date of the Camino kept getting closer and closer and closer. Um, and I still didn't know what I was going to do. I had some travel plans, um, which took me up to about July, and at the time I was, uh, I had some time restrictions in Europe, so I had to be out of the Schengen zone in Europe, um, 3 months after I started the Camino. Um, so I, I knew that I wanted to do something, but I didn't know what.

Um, yeah, I could feel that when you finished. It was like I could feel her energy was like I had that part planned and I went through the process of that and I got amazing things from it, but it was sort of nearly like a— that part wasn't the cliff.

No.

That was the easy bit.

It was the easy bit because it is, it's quite structured and you know, you know how long it's going to take and you know where you need to go from point A to point B, and how you do that is entirely up to you. But it is, it's It's it's contained. After that, it was like, well now what? Now actually now what? Do I do I work? Do I travel? Do I stay in Europe? Do I come back to Australia? Do I go somewhere different? And that was there was so much uncertainty. And so I I had some travel planned, which was excellent. Travel is always amazing for open for broadening your horizons, for opening your eyes, for Um, building trust in yourself.

Mm.

To, to figure out where are you gonna go. I, I didn't have a huge amount of money, so each decision had to be made about where do I wanna go, how do I get there, where am I gonna stay, how can I physically get there— train, bus, plane, walk. Um, so I, I did some travel. I think the, the, the Camino is great for building trust in yourself to make daily decisions. That they're going to be not always the right decision, but you make a decision and then you make that decision work. Um, and then—

So I think the next stage was more— and, and I think that this is probably something a lot of people struggle with— is uncertainty. Like, how do I know? Like, and you, as you said, you're, you're— it's time, it's finances, it's sustainability. How long is the runway for this option? Like, Um, and so it's how do I make decisions? Really, you had a blank canvas. It was a blank canvas. And a blank canvas is scary.

Like, yeah, yeah, because you can do anything, which is great, but then you can do— but then what do you do?

But you can do anything. Like, you can do anything, but how do you then, after your learnings on the Camino to trust yourself, integrate that into next steps. Like, I think that is, um, that is the part that we're all out in the Wild West for, because we're all learning how to tune back into our hearts and not, um, like, and design our own lives. Basically, that's what we're here to do. And creating a life that you're gonna love can be really hard when you're starting from scratch.

Yeah.

Like, you've got to go back to basics and I want to talk a little bit about something that should have been amazing and wasn't. Winterberg. It's, but it seemed like a fantastic opportunity at the time. Yeah. Let's walk through that.

Okay. Um, so I about, so I went to do the Camino in April. Um, and then did some traveling and then did some, uh, yoga, which we can talk about in a different—

Oh yes.

Uh, at some stage. Um, and then, uh, our parents came over and traveled for 7 weeks, which was amazing. Um, but after— similar to after the first Camino, I knew once they were gone, I'd be— I'd have the winter, the European winter ahead of me, and didn't really have a plan of what I wanted to do. And again, I had all the options. Which is actually— it can be paralyzing because you've got all the options.

You can do anything.

You can do anything.

Yeah, so if you can do anything, what are you gonna do?

Yeah.

It's actually— it seems like it's an easy question, but it's actually not.

It's actually not. Um, and our mum made an off-the-cuff comment, oh, maybe you should go and work in a ski field. And I was like, oh yeah, I'd never really— I had not thought of that. Other people had done it. You did it in your 20s. I was in my 40s. Um, I had not skied much, um, not spent much time in the snow, but it just sort of tweaked a little bit of interest. So, um, I randomly found a job opportunity on Facebook at a very small mid-range ski town in Germany.

Um, yeah, it was in a restaurant, an Irish pub.

It was in an Irish pub.

Um, she has a passport so she can work there. Yes. Yeah.

Uh, I thought it would be an amazing fun opportunity. Um, I'd get some skiing on the side. Um, and earn some euros. Um, so I got the job, got the job, uh, got myself organized, bought some ski gear, um, and made my way to Winterberg in the Sauerland in, um, in Germany. Um, and it was anything— it was everything that I had not anticipated. And my expectations—

And even like from experience, from what me and our other sister, Luce, both did the ski season in Whistler, it was heaps of fun. You like— it was just heaps of fun. So that's what we're kind of like, yeah, do that, that'll be amazing. It's so fun. Yeah, you can get paid to ski and play and have fun.

And yeah, but it was not—

it was not—

it definitely was not. The positives were the skiing, so I learned how to ski, got lots of time on the slopes, um, but everything else was very underwhelming. The job was not what I expected it to be. It was quite a toxic work environment, um, which was not what I had been sold, um, The accommodation was incredibly underwhelming, definitely not what I was sold. Um, I was told I would get an apartment in town, 5-minute walk from the pub, and I ended up, uh, in a guest house 5 kilometers out of town, which doesn't sound like a lot, but in the snow when there's only a single-lane road going out—

And not regular buses.

Not regular buses.

No buses on Sunday.

No buses on Sundays.

Holidays, no buses.

No buses after lunchtime.

And taxis were very expensive.

Very expensive, yeah.

And you're getting paid about nothing.

About nothing. Not a lot of money. Um, uh, so the guest house accommodation, the kitchen was awful. The owner was a smoker, would smoke in the kitchen. Everything was filthy. You said you couldn't even cook in the kitchen. You wouldn't cook in the kitchen. There was, there was, uh, food scraps sitting out in the open. There was fish, there was fish thawing on the bench. Yes. Yep, for a couple of days. Um, I had to share a bathroom with the owner of the guest house. Overall, it was awful.

And it was so interesting though, because like you just had this amazing experience walking the Camino, and like conditions weren't that much better, but it's a different— like you go in with an expectation, fun ski resort, this will be fun, and then you're met with awfulness at work, like a real hierarchy hierarchical, whatever that word is.

Yep.

Um, structure. And, and we were dissecting it, like, why is it like this? And it's because where we went in the ski fields, it was more like fun. It was all young 20-year-olds there for a working holiday. Whereas in Germany, in the ski fields, it's people that need a serious job. Like, it's people that— this— they're not there to ski and have fun. They are there to earn money. So that, which you don't know until you know.

You don't know until you know. No. And I was expecting something very different. different. But they, the people that I worked with, um, they needed the job for whatever, for, for living conditions for the rest of the year. So a lot of them, um, had come back multiple times, um, but they, they had a summer job and a winter job, and this was their winter job, and they were there to earn money. No one else in the, in the pub was there to ski, and I sort of just came in with my Aussie good-natured, I'm here to ski, um. You know, I'm here to have some fun, and was met with resistance at every turn.

But it also meant you didn't make any friends you could go skiing with. So you would think in a skiing town you'd meet some people you could actually ski with, but you didn't even find that. So I remember back to, um, I think you were close to throwing the towel in. And when was it? Like, how many weeks? What was it? It was nearly Christmas, I think, because was that when I told you? I said, just go and get But book a hotel for a couple of nights, give yourself something nice for a little bit. Because over the holidays you couldn't get in and out of town, so you couldn't even ski because you can't get in to ski.

Because there were no buses.

No buses, um, and taxis were stupid expensive. Um, and I think that we realized then we were like, okay, I'm here for a reason and this has worked out for a reason. What am I not seeing here? Okay, so talk me through a little bit about that. Like, because if you think about it, on Camino, it's, as you said, an incredibly safe and supportive environment.

Nurturing.

Nurturing. So it's a little bit like being at an ashram in India meditating for days and days. There's no— like, there's the stresses of the Camino, but there's not like the old, um, systems and environments that we are used So to me, I was seeing it like, okay, now you're being tested with what you learned about yourself on the Camino in real-world conditions. Because I think that that is why people become obsessed with the Camino, because it's a place where they're safe and they're seen and they're accepted and they're in the tribe. Like, it's a tribe.

Yes.

And then you went into this hostile environment that was literally each man— it was, it was the polar opposite. So from a learning and growth perspective, yeah, like it was brilliant. Didn't feel so brilliant.

Didn't feel so brilliant at the time.

But sorry, yeah, that was a big lead into that question. But, um, tell me about like that.

So, so yeah, you're absolutely right. The, um, Camino is, is a really— it's a really nurturing space. So if you decide on one day that you to have some space and that you don't want to walk with people and you don't want to talk, you can do that and everyone's very respectful. And then I got into the work environment where it really was very toxic. And the lessons that you learn around setting boundaries, doing what feels right for your body physically and emotionally and mentally, I literally had this training ground to be able to learn or to practice putting my learnings and insight and reflection into practice in real life in a very— like we spoke about— a very low-stakes environment.

Yes, you were leaving, you knew you were leaving, it was only ever a holiday.

Um, you know, these aren't lifelong people that I'm going to stay in contact with forever, or if at all. Um, so it, it was a good training ground.

I'm just going to pause there because I really want to— yeah, the low stakes, low stakes, practicing the skills in a low-stakes environment. Yeah, like backpacking and figuring it out. Like, I think that, that I really want to just highlight that low-stakes environment, practicing the new skills. Like, realistically, you were given the best opportunity possible. It doesn't feel like that when you're in it, but if you can start to see things that come up in your life as opportunities to practice how you want to live your life.

Yeah.

I think that that's why I just really wanted to like highlight that low-stakes environment. Like maybe it's if someone pushes in front of you in line at the coffee shop saying, sorry sir, I was actually next, as opposed to just swallowing it down and feeling angry inside. Like, I don't know, that to me would be like a low-stakes environment.

Yeah, or if you're at the coffee shop and they give you the wrong order, you know, it, it, an opportunity to, to actually ask what you want for. Actually, I didn't order a cappuccino, I ordered a flat white with oat milk, or what You know, whatever.

And this is coming from two people pleasers. So we are talking to all the other people pleasers out there that practicing in a lot of ways how to advocate for yourself.

Yes, it's to find—

yeah, it is just to advocate for actually, no, that's not what I want. Or actually, no, like, oh, that word, no, just no. Practice it. Say it now.

No.

Oh no, no. What's this no? Where is this no?

It's like No, no, no being a whole sentence.

No being a whole sentence, no explanation required. So, okay, I interrupted you, but I wanted to just like really highlight the— yeah, practicing what you'd learned in a low-stakes environment, but in the real world, which is toxic and is not supportive, and, and that everything that the Camino was not. So, okay, yeah, continue.

So it was a low-stakes environment because I knew, A, I'm not going to keep in contact. B, I'm not, I'm not going to stay long term. And C, it is a good training ground. And when you reframe that— because I, I, we had multiple conversations when I was in the depths of despair and I can't do this and this is awful, it's not what I expected, not what I was promised. Many tears.

Woe is me. Woe is me. We've all been there.

Yeah, but a reframe to look at it as a training ground in a low-stake environment actually made it easier and more palatable to practice. And, and a really— it became a good environment to practice standing up for myself in the workplace, um, asking for things that I was promised. And then things— look, things got— they got better. I didn't change my, uh, accommodation. The accommodation stayed rubbish the whole time.

Mm-hmm.

But I got to practice standing up for myself and saying, actually, no, this is not what I was promised and something needs to change. It never changed. But then I— it, it It's about bringing the control.

You can do what you can do. Yeah. And then you can choose what you do with the outcome.

Yeah. You have no control over the outcome.

No.

You know, I could— and I also stopped feeling helpless.

And because that bruise, doesn't it? Like, if you don't say, if you don't speak up and advocate, even if nothing changes, it's an internal, um, anguish, like a it brews. It's like, like a resentment. Like, I always like to think, like, at work, once that seed of resentment is planted, like, in a work environment, unless you have to do a lot to bring that employee back.

Yeah.

Like, once the seed of resentment is in there and they don't advocate for themselves, it just brews. Speaking from experience.

Yeah.

I'm speaking from experience. It just brews and brews and brews, and eventually That company will lose them.

Yeah.

Or you lose yourself. So I think learning how to speak up— look, I'm also, I'm terrible at speaking up for myself too. So I think having a low-stake environment where you can practice that. And I think also you got thrown in an incredibly toxic situation. Like, most situations are not— like, you were nearly given the other end of the extreme. Yeah. Like, and so it sort of— and I think if it had only been mid-ground, it wouldn't have been enough to shake the lesson out of it. Like, do you know, to really see it? Like, you actually had to, because we were like, what is going on? Like, I've just had this most amazing experience. Why, when this felt aligned, would I be thrown this?

Yeah.

And that's just the universe's way of saying, here's the gift.

Here's the gift. Yeah, it's a big chunky—

it's a big chunky tuxedo. But it is a gift. It is.

And it was a gift, um, and it, it really helped give me experience, give me practice, and then also to be really grateful for it. I became even more grateful for the, for the simple things, um, like a sunny day on the slopes or a lovely interaction with a customer in the pub, um, Or walk— going for a walk in the snow became even more beautiful because I had this other gift to deal with. It was a gift. It definitely was a gift. I had to keep telling myself, this is a gift. But the universe did really throw me a huge curveball, um, and it was so different from the Camino. But I— and look, like I said, the accommodation situation didn't change. Work became mildly better. Um, but it gave me, it gave me, um, confidence and the building of trust, the continuation of the building of trust. This is not what I expected. This is not what I want. I'm going to say something. And if, if nothing changes, then I get to decide what happens after the outcome. I can, at any stage, I could leave. Um, there was no— I had no end date. I didn't, you know, I could have packed up and left 2 weeks after I got there. But then Like we spoke about on the phone, then yes, I could easily leave, but then what, what opportunities and what, what, what am I—

Yeah, I remember you saying to me, but then am I just running away?

When— yeah, am I running away to a safe— because I had a safe environment to go to.

Oh yeah, she had a place she could go. Yeah. Am I just running away? And that's when we said, okay, well, let's look at this and what am I supposed to be learning from this? Yeah. Um, well, yeah, learning. I know there's like that real, like, do you say learning, do you say lesson, do you say remembering, whatever it is. But I think this is this delicate balance between knowing from your heart but actually being able to execute it in the 3D world. And that was like the biggest, like, here you go, you, you've been on Camino, like, you have like Dug in, you've peeled off layers. But I'm gonna plop you into the real world because the real world doesn't change.

No.

Like we can go into a whole thing on manifestation, you creating your reality, but that is not for today. But but you create. But what you did, you created that reality.

Yeah.

So that you could actually up level. Yeah. Yeah. From a safe space knowing these things to a like you got the extreme of a toxic space. space.

Yeah.

And then actually being able to advocate for yourself. And, and then, as you said, then you're in control of your life. You're not just letting other people be the driver of your experience.

Yeah.

You can then choose.

You choose.

And so you then made, like, you looked at the weather and you decided, okay, I'll stay till here, and then I'm gonna ski till here. And, and you, um, and even I remember when you hurt your knee and you were like, that was even hard for you to advocate And the response was not what it should have been, like, at all.

No, no. So I injured my knee on the ski— skiing, um, and was due to work that night. And I've worked in management roles and leadership roles, and, uh, I thought when I called to say I've injured myself, it would be met with, okay, well, why don't you take the night off? But it was not. I had— my boss was sleeping. I woke him up, he was grumpy, and he said words to the effect of, well, you're not here to ski, you're here to work. And I was like, oh, okay, well, I'm actually here to ski, not to work, and the work supports me being here. But of course I didn't say that, I said that in my head.

Um, and sometimes things should be said in your head.

Sometimes things should be said in your head. And it wasn't actually— it wouldn't change the outcome, it wouldn't change him.

No, actually, that's probably a really good, um, A really good segue into things being said in your head. Like, sometimes you feel like you need to say something, but do you need to say it for you or for them? So knowing the difference.

Yeah.

Sometimes it's best to say internally, like, well, no, I know why I came here.

Yeah, I came here just— I came here.

You don't know why I came here.

Yes.

So I think just knowing what, uh, Inside thoughts and what are outside words? Like, when you're learning to advocate for yourself, I think is a big— it's a big, um, it's a balance. So what will me saying this change?

Yeah, will it change anything? No. Maybe it's an internal thought. Will it change anything? No. Maybe you still say it out loud. Um, does it change anything? Probably not, because you have no control over what the other person We'll say, or the outcome of the situation. And as it turned out, I didn't have to go to work that night, but it was, it was not met kindly. Um, and then, uh, yeah, it—

And I think that's actually probably another really interesting thing is because you were working as like a— were you like an on-the-floor waitress basically? Like, we both worked pubs and bars and restaurants when we were in our 20s. Like, we can do it with our eyes closed. Then we've gone up and we've been the managers of people. And, and so then to be in the flip side, I suppose it's an interesting place to be because you've already gone up all the way through the ranks and then actually having to be managed by someone that's not a good manager as well, when you've probably managed— well, you have managed much larger teams.

Yeah, that was so— that was a really interesting— that was, that was fascinating to see from the other side. And my career, my corporate career for 20 years was in human resources, and my human resources brain was exploding on a daily basis in this work environment. Because it was— there was an individual who was put into a management role who, bless him, had no management experience, had not been coached or supported or given much direction other than watching someone else deal with situations in a very toxic way and then taking that on as the way that they would manage any sort of situation.

I remember you saying, you're like, I'm just— it's not— I'm— I am just a worker. I'm being paid nothing. I'm just— not my place to say anything. It's just— so I think that that's another thing too, is like learning to pick your battles as well. Like, and at what point Is it like you need to protect your own energy as well? Like, I do find myself sometimes about to go to respond to something within a community or something like a— like, and just going, stop, protect your energy and bring it back in for stuff that's going to benefit you.

Exactly, exactly. Don't over-invest where you don't need to invest.

Yes.

Um, yeah, don't give your energy away to spaces that It will not be reciprocated.

Yes, and I think that that's a really good note for anyone that does feel like— I know when I'm giving too much because I will be exhausted. And so, and then you've got to look at where is your energy going. So actually just map out your days. Is there a friend that calls you for an hour every day for free counseling?

Yeah.

Like, at the beginning you want to help them through a situation, but when you notice it's a pattern And then you see, well, is it eating me or am I growing from it? Like, is this eating into me or feeding me? That's it. Yeah, I always get sayings wrong. You're loving that about me. I never get them right. She knows sayings. Is it eating me or feeding me?

Yeah.

And so if you like, uh, like have a look at where your time goes and what you're investing your energy in, and if you're finding there is some leaky Yeah. You actually have to be conscious about them and then put in little safeguards. So, if there's a friend that takes up a lot of time, maybe you let that phone call go through, send them a message, I'll call you in a bit. Maybe you answer and say, okay, I've got 10 minutes, then I've got another meeting, and on the clock say, okay, I've got to bounce for that meeting now. Whatever you need to do to protect—

Yes.

Your energy, I think, is a really big lesson, especially for people pleasers.

Yes.

And yes people.

Yes. Um, and, and it takes practice because you won't get it right all the time. And you don't— the, the goal is not to exclude yourself from society. The goal is to find the balance integrating, sharing, and being part of a community and connecting with people and doing things that bring you joy with other people. But then also it's about finding the balance because it's different for everyone.

Yeah. And it's like a dance. Yeah. And you also have to make sure that you're receiving.

Yes.

As well. Often people pleasers, we're very giving, but you keep giving and you'll end up with like having a nervous breakdown or a heart attack or adrenal fatigue or something like that. Because our bodies, like as we spoke in the Camino one about where the ailments are in your body, shows you emotionally what's not in alignment. So you, your body will get sick.

Yeah.

If you do not have a balance of the giving and receiving. And receiving doesn't necessarily necessarily need to be from another person. It can be from yourself to yourself, but it's the space to receive what you need. So you can get that externally.

Yes.

Maybe a caring friend that's actually helping you, not just sucking from you. Or you can give it to yourself. And giving yourself the space to give it to yourself though, because if someone's got taken out that hour, that's an hour that you can't invest in yourself. So Look at where your leakies— like the leakies, that's not it. I said there's leaky, so... I know what you mean. Leaky pipe? Leaky something. Look where the leaks are in your energy. And you don't have to do it like a big vroom. You can just start like putting in little boundaries.

Yeah, and just try something and see. Take, like you said, like, you know, I've got 10 minutes for a call.

Yeah, I've got, I've got to be— so I've got to be off this in 10 minutes, here, go shoot, you've got 10 minutes. Yeah. And that means it's not an hour and a half. Yeah. Or if you don't at the time, or you— what you're doing something for you. Because I think with phones and instant messaging and all of the ways people can communicate these days, we think that we need to answer— well, I do answer it straight away. I do not like— I do not like having the dots on there saying there's an unread message.

I'm quite—

Apart from my emails, I have 87,000 unread emails, which gives a lot of people anxiety, but those I can slipped through to the keeper. But I think the other messages, like, so it's nearly like putting some boundaries in place for yourself. Like, I want this hour for me. Go for your walk without your phone. Like, um, like carve out safe spaces where you can't— like someone can't get to you. Yeah, yeah.

And, and, and be really conscious about it because it's easy to keep the phone right next you all the time. But if it's, if it's that you want to spend less time on social media because you, you finish your time on social media feeling drained and like you're not enough and that you're failing at life, consciously leave your phone in your bag when you come inside.

Oh, I put a timer on mine. Yeah, 30 minutes for the day. I override it a lot, but, but it's a conscious decision. But it's a conscious decision to override it. And I know, okay, I've been on 30 minutes today. So yeah, and sometimes I'm doing work on this, I'm like, it's No, that doesn't count because I'm working. But, um, yeah, if— put, put timers, like safeguard yourself, safeguard your energy, like proactively do it.

Yeah, because also because you're the only one that's going to do it. Other people are not going to do it for you. And if you are giving, people, not maliciously and probably not even consciously, will continue to take.

That's a big one. And take, because they don't know they're doing it.

They don't know they're conscious.

So it's not like, oh, that person is a real like user or, or an energy vampire. It's like they don't know you're probably making them feel good.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, the state of human beings is we go towards what makes us feel good. We want to feel good. Like, if you're making me feel better about myself, yeah, I want to be around you all the time. I want to talk to you all the time. But what's that doing to you? So you've got to make sure that they are making you feel good.

Yeah.

Equally. Yeah.

And that was a huge realization I had on the second Camino. Like, it, it just came at me thick and fast. Um, I had multiple people wanting to walk with me every single day, and I love to walk alone, um, because I can set my own pace. I can stop and take a photo of a flower. I can sit down and have a drink of water. I can do everything that I want to do. Sometimes having company is good, sometimes it doesn't work for me. But I had people coming at me thick and fast, and I got to the stage where I just— my responses to people's requests were completely, um, over the top.

Unhinged.

Unhinged.

And that's actually a really good point because you will tell where your nervous system is. It's all about regulating your nervous system.

It is all about regulating.

And you will tell where it is by noticing, are you yelling at a car that cuts you off in traffic, or are you going, oh, whatever, dude, you go ahead?

Yeah.

When you drop something in the kitchen, when you spill something on you, notice your reaction.

Yeah.

That's like, are you swearing a million expletives, or you're like, oh, whoopsie daisy? Like, yeah, that will give you a gauge on where your central nervous system, like how regulated you are, your automatic response. It is, it's your automatic response. And so that's where that will be your— and it'll be different for everyone. You'll know what you do. You know when you lose it, and to know how to like bring it down. Yeah.

So I I noticed it when when a particular pilgrim messaged me, and I swore so loudly at the phone.

What do you want? I think I'm just waiting around for you to blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Expletives threw my phone on the bed and stormed around the room for five minutes. I went, oh, that's that's probably that's probably a pretty good indication.

It's a pretty good sign.

It's a pretty good sign that I'm overwhelmed.

I might be at an 11 out of 10.

I think it's a 50 out of 10. It's not— it was not comparable to the request for a coffee. It was a real— but that was it. And I am still learning to know when, when things don't feel right in my body. And that was, that was a really clear sign. And so I then went the other extreme and just cut everyone out of my life. my life, um, which worked for a period.

Oh, you need to bring it back, don't you?

Yeah, so there was some serious—

If you're really up high, you need to probably carve out more space than usual to bring it back. And you'll get to know your— I call it the magic toolbox.

Yeah.

Of things that you know bring calm your central nervous system down. Like, I love putting on music. Like, I— it's, it's It's just actually carving yourself space to do whatever makes you feel good. It's like gifting yourself the time.

Yeah.

To— and your only job is to make yourself feel good.

Yeah.

Like, that, that's it. That's literally— and so if you're at a level 50 out of 10, you're gonna have to at first carve a big chunk of time because otherwise you're going to be— I like to say it's like filling a bucket with an eyedropper.

Yeah.

It's like you can't just take a 5-minute, like, breathing break on the grass if you're at a 50 out of 10. Like, you need to take 2 days off just for yourself, and your only goal is to make yourself feel good.

Yeah.

And I know that we both struggle with this. I think the Camino is a nice place because you've carved out the time already for yourself, but we come from— like, you were doing at all times. Like, I didn't even know rest was an No. Until I was in my 30s.

Yeah. And that it's actually a very viable option.

It's as important as your nutrition and sleep. Like, and this is not sleep rest, this is like central nervous system rest.

Yeah.

It is the things that are building you back up. It is as big a component as every other health thing. Yeah. That you could possibly— yeah.

Have.

Like, it is, it is equally important with eating.

Yes.

Or sleeping.

Or sleeping.

And without both of them, you die. And if you don't regulate your central nervous system, you can get adrenal fatigue and die. I know my— our lovely counselor Maureen, who is a darling, we love you, um, she was always banging on at me about adrenal fatigue. And she told me she knows a girl that died from adrenal fatigue. She was very— and I was like, okay, I get it, I get it, because it's But it's that important.

It is that important. And it's not just physical resting, it's mental resting as well.

Yes.

Like, even if you're lying in the pool, if your mind's still racing at a million miles an hour, that's actually not—

Very good point.

It is a very good point.

Very good point. Yes, you might go through the motions, but is what you are doing actually calming you down? And I know for me, like, my brain works Like a crazy— Differently. That's a nice way to put it. It's unique. Anyway, it likes to juggle multiple things at once. So in order for me to actually make it switch off, I need to listen to something. But I listen to something that is interesting enough, but entertainment. So, um, say people on YouTube. I love listening to people on YouTube. For some reason, I can't do podcasts. But I think the fact I can see them even if I'm not watching them, I— that to me, I'll listen to what they're talking about. It's interesting enough, but not so that it's like work or self-imprint, like with no point other than to just—

Yeah.

Turn my brain off. I think that that's why some people go to sleep with the TV on and stuff, because it's there. I don't— I get too— and that, that doesn't work for me. But, um, those, those screenwriters are really good at sucking my brain. I get really hooked. I never fall asleep. Um, and that's why I can't read either, because reading for me, I'll just stay up for days until the book's got done. Like, that is not a relaxing thing. Like, I get hooked in.

Yeah.

So anyway, so my point being is switching off might not be complete. Like, it might not be going and sitting in a park, because that just might amplify the voices in your head and the looping and the anxious thoughts and the things that are causing your central nervous To be deregulated. And this, like, how about you? You don't have quite the brain, weird brain than me, but what do you think about that?

I, I— yes, it's different for everyone. And I think I didn't really understand it probably until I walked Camino, um, to— because your brain, your brain will run away with itself unless you consciously do whatever's going to work for you to switch it off. And not switch it off is probably the wrong phrase, but to, to, to come— yep, you essentially need to switch your brain off. And, and it could be— it's different for, for both of us. Um, I, I found through the yoga training that I did and also on Camino, breathing works for me. But it's— it— I have to push through the initial, I've got 65 million things to do, even though I don't. Um, 65 million things, so I can't sit here and Breathe for 5 minutes. But after a minute or so— and, and it's real, it— I have to— I do have to consciously make the time and do it because otherwise I'll get up and walk away.

Um, well, don't they say that whenever you think you don't have time to meditate is exactly when you need—

when you need to meditate?

Yeah, yeah.

And if you don't have 20 minutes to meditate, you probably need an hour.

And if you haven't meditated before, that's another thing I do on YouTube, guided meditations where they talk. I actually record them myself because I believe in them so much.

Yeah.

And they take you on a little journey, so it's enough for your brain to be focused. You know, like when we say meditate, you don't just need to sit there like a, like a monk in a temple. Yeah. Like, like it doesn't have to be that. It could even be listening to your favorite music, like zoning out on a bed listening to your favorite music.

And some people like music with words and And some people like music without words.

Yeah, see, I need words to focus on something, whereas if there's no words, then I can create my own words and they're nothing to do with the music.

But, and again, it's trial and error and you have to figure out what works for you. Try guided meditation, try music with words, try music without words.

Well, some do words with no music too.

Some do words with no music, yes. Which is not quite me.

I love music, but... It, it—

I think if you haven't tried meditation, don't try sitting still.

Just staring at a wall.

You, you will— you'll hate it and you'll think, I can't meditate, and you'll never go back to meditation. There's so many different types of meditation. You can do a walking meditation, you can do meditative brushing of teeth, um, you can—

Well, cooking is actually a form of meditation for me. I love it so much and I'm so in the present moment with What am I putting in there? And I always like to cook. I don't just cook one thing. I cook 6 things at once because, mate, if I'm chopping, if I'm making white sauce, I'm not just making lasagna. I'm making eggplant like Parmesan. I'm making cauliflower cheese. I'm making chicken baked like, because that's my brain again. But so I will cook 6 things at once and I will dance around the kitchen. I like literally adding ingredients and putting that in the oven and Stirring that, and then what can go with that? Like even the process of buying the ingredients at the shop, and this is where it usually starts. It'll be like I'll see a really nice looking eggplant. Well, we got eggplant parmigiana. We got cauliflower cheese. We've got lasagna. We've got like you name it, whatever the ingredients are, because I'm already in there. I'm doing it, and I let them all flow together, and I'll put music on. I'll just have, and for me, that actually is a meditation. Nice. I suppose, because it is in the present moment.

You're in the present moment.

And that's— now we can segue into the yoga, because I think that that's what you found with the yoga is not actually an exercise.

No, that's one of the aspects of yoga, but it's yoga— yoga is about the act of quieting— quietening?

Quietening.

Quietening.

That's a hard word. Tell them about the yoga though first.

Yeah, okay. Um, so I— so after the Camino, I went and did some travel And then I was in, in Ireland and wondering what to do for the month of August, knowing that I wanted to do something, I wanted to have an activity. And then I woke up one morning with a thought, maybe I'll do a yoga retreat. Not having practiced yoga a lot in my life, but thought that might be a nice thing to do. It could go for a couple of weeks. And then I actually looked at yoga retreats and they are horrendously expensive. And then just through my searching, I found some yoga teacher training. based in Barcelona. Um, and my initial thought was, oh God, the world does not need another yoga teacher. There are so many yoga teachers.

That is so true.

So true. The world does not need another yoga teacher. But the thought was planted, and I ummed and ahhed, and then, and then I decided I'm going to book it. Um, and then I paid my deposit, and then I had that thought just running through my head, the world does not need another yoga teacher. And what a cliché, a woman in her midlife Having a midlife crisis.

What a cliché. I'm gonna be a yoga teacher. Of course you are.

Yeah, so all of that running through my head up until the day, up until when I was actually— I went, so I booked, I booked the yoga teacher training, I booked my flights, I went to Barcelona, and on the first day I still had that doubt and that you're— this is, this is pathetic, this is such a cliché. And, and when I turned up to the yoga teacher training on the first day, everyone else was much younger than me, had practiced. They're all like, oh, you know, I've been practicing for 15 years and, you know, I just want to deepen my practice. And I was like— and it came around to me and I was like, I actually don't know why I'm here.

Did you say that?

I did, I did. I was like, I don't really know why I'm here because I don't fit the yoga mold. I haven't practiced yoga a lot in my life and I feel— but I'm here. So I'm gonna, I'm going to do this.

That's exactly why you were there.

Exactly why I was there. Um, and it was amazing. I, I had 3 and a half weeks of yoga teacher training where I learned about the philosophy of yoga, which is about the stillness in the mind, the quietening of the mind. Yes, you, you practice, um, asanas, which are the physical poses, and different types of yoga have different benefits. Um, but actually yoga is, is a fundamental way of living your life. And it's not just about the physical practice, it's about, um, so many other things. The way you talk to yourself, the way you treat yourself, the way you treat other people, the way you structure your life, the discipline in your life. And yes, the physical practice as well, but it is— it's a much bigger philosophy on life.

Um, and I'm guessing probably not all yoga teaching is that deep, do you think? Or is there like a standard of yoga teacher training?

I think there is. I think there's— I think there's a I understand it. I am an accredited yoga teacher. Oh, right now? Yes, I was after I finished, and I felt very ill-prepared to be a yoga teacher. I think probably different schools teach different levels or to different levels of philosophy, but I did— I found a beautiful practice and an amazing philosophy, and it really helped me calm my central nervous system. It gave me many different tools to calm my central nervous system, to quiet, quiet my mind. Um, I don't get it right all the time. No one gets it right all the time. Every single time you practice the physical aspect of yoga, you have a different experience.

I suppose it's like a Camino, isn't it? It is like every single time you do a position, you're bringing into it— yes, it's a different moment. So you were a different person.

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

We're never the same.

We are never the same.

Nothing is ever the No.

Um, and the, the beauty of yoga is that— and, and similar to the Camino— is that you become curious about what your body is telling you, become curious about why one pose was easy last week and it's actually really difficult this week, when really it's like there's only been a week between it. Um, you learn how to accept and observe instead of judging Your body, your mind, uh, in what state you turned up to the practice.

So it's really teaching awareness, which I suppose— yeah, awareness is the umbrella over all of this.

Yeah, yeah.

It's giving yourself the space.

Yes.

To become aware of where you're at.

Yes.

Physically, emotionally.

Yeah.

Central nervous— like, where am I at right now? And I think that that's the busy I think that that's why people that do practice yoga, they've, they've carved that space out for themselves.

Yeah.

And I think probably the same with runners. I would say when you're running, you do, especially if you don't run with music. I think music is kind of dissociating from the activity. I'm just being a bit judgy about running now, aren't I? But, um, when I used to run, I do not anymore, but I wouldn't listen to music because I found I dissociated from the practice.

Yeah.

And it was like I was just going through the motions. Yeah, and I had this beautiful trail that I used to run in the Noosa Hinterland that was like it deserved my presence. And I feel like a bit like if you did yoga with some thumping beats, like you wouldn't be connected inside and noticing. Well, probably not so much the surroundings, but I would always notice like the trees or the leaves or the way the light is coming through there. Oh wow! Look at that! That there was this big. big patch of like gum trees, like massive gum trees, like hundreds of them.

Yeah.

In this really isolated place. And I think when you've got the headphones in, you're just sort of— you're going through the motions. So I think awareness— and you don't need to run for that, you don't need yoga. I think that it's just— it— those practices carve you out the space.

Yeah.

You can have the awareness right now sitting here. All you need to do is choose.

Yeah.

To be aware, to give yourself the So that's what it's all about, isn't it? Choosing to give yourself the space to be aware, check in.

Yeah.

Where are we at?

Yeah. Is this bringing— is what I'm doing in this current moment, is it bringing me anxiety or is it bringing me peace? Eating me or feeding me? Eating me or feeding me.

Got it now.

Um, and, and then the, the choice to be present in the moment. So running with no music and being present and noticing the beautiful surrounds. Or you can have 2 people in a yoga class doing exactly the same practice. One is, one is present in their body, in their body, uh, the other is going through the motions, but the mind is still ticking over.

Doing the to-do list, what I've got to get to next, etc., etc.

Yeah. Um, and the, the final pose in a, in a, like, I have the yoga class, shavasana, is actually the most challenging pose because you're lying on the floor and fully relaxed into the floor. The challenge is not letting your mind start racing. All right, after the yoga class I've got 10 minutes to have a shower and then I need to get to work, and, um, I wonder if I can get the 75 bus or maybe that'll be too late, and then, and then I've got to pick up this, and then I've got to do the kids, and what am I going to have for lunch, and God, I think I forgot my deodorant. Like, all of that stuff.

It's true.

And the challenge of Shavasana is to allow the beauty of the practice and the, the process of the practice to absorb into your body instead of letting your mind race away with you about what all the million and one things you need to do.

Yes. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, everyone, after this, check in. Check in.

Take a breath.

Take a breath. Well, our lovely Maureen is always like, breathing can cure 85% of the world's problems. Yeah, we're also cut off and we're breathing up here and in a rush and stuff and not that deep yoga belly breath.

Yes, for deep yoga.

Or just like take the— do the box breath. I find is the easiest, the 4 in, hold for 4, out for 4, hold for 4. Yeah, only because it's simple. Like you don't have to think— like there's other ones that go for longer up the top or down the bottom or stay here and do that, and they're very complicated. But yeah, just a simple box breath. But the point is to just come into yourself and become aware of where you're at. Just the— just focus on the breathing. You're not even trying to figure— no figuring out.

Concentrate.

No figuring out. You're just coming back into your center. And I think that's what a lot of the— like, that's what a lot of these are bigger practices, like the Camino and yoga practice. But the essence is coming into your awareness, into your center. So we can do that. Like, you can do it at the traffic lights.

Yes, yes.

You can get to somewhere 5 minutes early and just, instead of rushing in, just sit in the car.

Yeah, and breathe. Close your eyes or don't close your eyes, whatever's gonna work for you, and focus on the breath. And yes, your mind will run away, but you just quietly and gently bring it back to the breath. And that's meditation.

I think we can just leave—

Yeah.

Leave you with that. We'd like some box breaths next, please. But maybe, yeah, maybe you stick a little sticky note on your dashboard, or I don't know, like where else? And like, oh, on the fridge, on the fridge when you're— yeah, like even you can be mindful and like present when you're brushing your teeth. Yes, just like instead of rushing through the motions, or when you're having a shower. Yeah, instead of just getting it done, feel the water. Like, feel like it feels really nice.

It does feel delightful.

Like, you can just rush through that shit. Exactly. the same shower, just that split second of awareness beforehand to just bring you into that gratitude of, oh, this water feels so nice. It's not a bucket like in Bali.

And it's hot or it's cold or whatever, it's just the right temperature.

It's the sensation. It's like, appreciate the sensation and just don't rush through it. Or your coffee. Yeah, like, take 2 minutes. It probably only takes 2 or 3 minutes to sit down and just buy yourself that 3 minutes. Like, be 3 minutes late if it means that. Like, your central nervous system will thank you for having that, as opposed to slurping it over the bench while you're unpacking the dishwasher, while you're making the kids breakfast at the same time, and thinking about all the things you need to do when you get to work that day. Guilty.

Yeah.

So just give yourself 3 minutes.

Yeah.

It's not a lot. Yeah.

And, and you feel— you will feel better for it afterwards, and then that makes you better.

And then also what you're doing is, as opposed to creeping up to like an 8 out of 10, a 9 out of 10, where then you get a 3 out of 10 event and it pushes you over into like expletives, throwing the phone on the bed— you like, every time you do that, you're bringing yourself down a notch. So then you're only at a 5. You give yourself a 3 out of 10 event.

Yeah.

And it's only an 8. It's fine, I can manage that. That's a whoopsie daisy.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's not like all hell breaks loose. And so it's just learning to check in where you're at. And as I said, those auto responses will tell you everything.

Absolutely.

So yeah, check in with that. We love you lots. Box breathing, please. Not that I like to give you homework, but just— or just sit there in awareness. Just sit and stare around at wherever you are and just feel the gratitude. Like, look at the— like, look at the trees, look at the Like, is there a cute little bird or a butterfly? Like, just find the magic because— and be in awe of this life that we're in.

Yeah, it's incredible.

Okay, we love you lots. Bye!