Episode 102: Can Psychedelics Improve your Relationship?

Hi, I'm Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. And today, all the way from the Bay Area, where I'm gonna be in a few weeks' time— I'm so excited— I'm with Denise Renee, who has got multiple titles. Let's start with sexologist, sex therapist, Yoga therapist, psychedelic therapist. That's really the one I want to talk about. Somatic maybe as well, something around bodywork. Anyway, she's done loads and loads of things. But yeah, I'm curious where I'm, I'm, I'm curious to speak to her primarily because we were talking about the fact that psychedelics were obviously a big part of many people's lives that are now in their 60s, 70s, 80s, they may still be a part of their lives. I know my uncle and aunt were both hippies. And so psychedelics were very much a part of their lives. And they haven't stopped taking some kind of, you know, like edibles, stuff like that, as they've aged. And it's really helped them, especially around pain, actually. That's the main way I can see that it's really helped them. But we don't really talk about enough the how edibles and other kinds of drugs might really support older people in their intimate life to overcome pain, whatever. So welcome.

Thank you. Thanks for having me here. I'm so glad to be here and so glad that you have this space. Thank you for your service.

Thank you. So tell me, you know, what does being a psychedelic therapist involve?

Well, mostly what I do is I work with people around integration. So they've had their experiences, and then I help them make sense of it in their lives. And sometimes people have had their experiences a week ago, or a day ago, or maybe they had it decades ago, like some folks who may have been in the '60s and '70s and were experimenting. So when they've had their experiences, so many things come up. Psychedelics help emotional barriers fall, spiritual barriers. Maybe people had a mystical experience and now they're like, how do I make sense of this? Also, some trauma may have come up. So people have things that come up and then they wonder, how can I make sense? How can I integrate this into my life? How can I live a better life because this has happened? So in terms of if somebody has had an experience and something came up, we'll say around sexuality in particular, Maybe they have had a sensual experience during this psychedelic journey, and they want to make sense. Oh, okay, I'm in my body in a different way. Now what do I do? So then they can either, if they're partnered, they can talk about this with their partner, like, I had this experience, and then can we bring some of this into the bedroom? Can we bring some of this into our relationship? And if they're not partnered, now they're moving through the world in a different way, whether it's through solo sex, masturbation, or whether it's just how they're interacting with other people relationally. So there's so many different things that can go on.

Wow. You see, I've never taken a psychedelic because I'm too scared.

Not yet. There's still time. There's so much time.

I don't know. Anyone who's ever met me would say that probably I'm not the kind of person that should be doing that. But I know, I know that I have in my younger days, take it. You know, I used to smoke weed. I used to really— when I was in the States at university, we used to get like Californian weed and stuff. And I loved having sex when I was stoned. I mean, it was, it was mind-altering. It was mind-altering. But now I'm a little bit frightened about it because I haven't done it in so long. And I wonder if I'd get freaked out and how I would cope with it. Like, do you work with people like me? You think, who make me— I want to do that. And how How would I get started again? Because honestly, I get scared.

Yeah. I mean, it's a really good point. The weed today is not the same weed as then.

No.

The potency level is so much higher now. So, and a lot of people don't want to smoke anymore for their lungs. You know, I'm just getting over COVID. I know I have asthma. I know what it's like with lung compromising. Yeah. But there's so many different options now. Like you brought up edibles. Use gummies and then they know because, well, I mean, you know, especially here in California, you know what the dosage can be. So you can take half of a gummy or a third or a quarter, and then you can kind of just start small and then see what happens in your body. Use it. I would suggest if you're using it legally and with intention, start small. Know what your dosage is. Be very mindful of something that we talk about in the psychedelic world, set and setting. So you want to be mindful of your mindset. That's what the set part is. What is my mindset today? Am I feeling comfortable, content, kind of confident? Is this a good day to try this out? And then your setting. Am I in an environment that feels safe? And contained and calm. So once you have that set up, then you can try it out. Try it out small, see what goes on in the body. Really kind of use some mindfulness or even meditation, some breathing to see what's going on inward. What is your body doing? What kind of sensations am I experiencing? And then once you do that a little bit, maybe you're with your partner, see what happens together. I mean, there are ways it is, you know, legality comes into play and also everybody has a different sensitivity. So one just has to be mindful of that and a little bit, I don't want to say cautious, I just want to say aware.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And, you know, I know people that are using it also just to overcome pain. And we know that sometimes in later life, people have mobility issues and using, You know, using gummies and stuff can really help with that. So I think there's also just other reasons why it's a good thing. I mean, I was saying to you before we started recording that because I'm going to California in a few weeks and some— a friend of mine turned me on to a Vice documentary about weed lube and about how now they're making— they took them to all these, like, all these women are now producing products that support women's sexual health using weed. And I am so I mean, that's one thing. I'm assuming they do say your pussy gets stoned. How does that work? Like, because it's topical, right?

Yeah, it's topical. And I mean, you know, lube, especially with older communities, it's essential, right? Lube around, you know, and you can never have too much lube. And also you can Just to be comfortable saying, I want lube, I need lube, is so important. And then to have the enhanced lube with cannabis, I mean, it is— there is a relaxation that goes on.

Yeah.

And sure, it might start in the pussy, but there may be, you know, it kind of expands out into the rest of the body. And to have a great sexual experience, being relaxed, being calm is really important. So this could be a really good enhancement tool for somebody who wants to play.

It sounds awesome. Of course, we don't have this legally over here. So I have to be careful about what I say. But, but yeah, no, it sounded, it sounded really incredible. As I was watching this documentary, I was like, people were talking about it and they were talking about it in, you know, they were just going, getting very ecstatic about this whole thing. So yeah, I was thinking that sounded, that sounded really quite exciting. I mean, I think just in general that, you know, I do wonder how many— we talk a lot about engaging with alternative lifestyles as you get older and thinking about your relationships in a different way than you might have done when you were younger. You know, how do you think psychedelics and stuff play into all of that? Hmm.

Well, I mean, one thing first, before I answer that, I think it's so interesting, you know, most of the sexual advice that people can read are written by young people.

Yeah.

You know, you open a magazine, we'll just take Cosmo as an example because it's low-hanging fruit, but it's written by young people. Oftentimes we look to people who have had years, decades of experience in a field, in a lived experience, as somebody who has more information. They have wisdom. But then we get to sex and we're asking people who are young.

So I—

one, I think that it's important to remember that people who have had maybe more sex are people who have other interesting information. They may be ready to live in a way that they hadn't been ready to live when they were younger. But psychedelics, I mean, I do think that they can open the door into one's maybe true desires.

Yeah, interesting.

Exploring something that they haven't before, whether it's something physical, whether it's kink, or maybe even BDSM, which then we would get into a whole conversation around consent. I mean, consent is always important no matter what, or even something of tantra, or, you know, emotionally connecting in a way and somatically connecting in a way that has more of a spiritual realm element to it.

Yeah.

So I think psychedelics can be really important in all of those.

And have you experienced any situations where couples were, you know, one of the things I think about is couples who perhaps have got their relationships have gone a bit stale and they're thinking about how they can spice things up. Is that one of the ways that you can spice things up, do you think?

I mean, it would certainly be an intense spice.

You know, it's—

we're not talking about putting like—

it's the cayenne pepper.

Cayenne pepper. You might want to start with like a little bit of turmeric.

Fair enough. Yes, I love it.

But I do think that a lot of times, especially as well, if couples are together for a long time, that they can have a strong emotional connection, but then they might question like, well, now, but how do we get the physical back? I mean, we used to have so much fun. Yeah, I do think that under the right circumstances that there could be some, you know, with legality taken into consideration, with mindfulness and intention, that if they do use some sort of psychedelic medicine together, that it could enhance their emotional connection. And then that barrier could be leading to something that might be fun for them physically, like it used to be. And like it could be again, or like it's a new frontier that they might discover something that they didn't know before. And they might even enhance their ability ability to communicate. Like maybe one of them might think, oh, I really wanted to do this sexual position, or I really wanted to do this sexual connection in whatever capacity it is, but I wasn't able to say it because I felt shy. Even though we've been together for decades, even though we've lived rich, rich lives together. Now they have this assistance that they're able to say something that they weren't able to say before.

Yeah, well, I was writing in my— as I explained before, I wrote two drafts of this post. One was things I've learned from the experts that was kind of positive and uplifting. And the other one was things I've learned from the experts that was kind of depressing and made me sad. And in the positive one, I wrote, you know, the thing that comes up all the time in every conversation I've had, all 99, 100 episodes, whatever it now is, is about the importance of communication, right? Like every single, every single conversation is about, well, if we could just open up the conversation, if we could just get people to learn how to communicate their needs and their wants and their desires in a more effective way that wasn't attributing blame, if we could only like be able to say what we want without feeling shame, if we could only do this and feel liberated in that moment, if we could only trust each other and, you know, all of this fucked up, like all of this. And in practice, like, you know, like, it all sounds great, right? It all sounds totally logical. But I know it's often the one thing that's the most difficult in any relationship is you get stuck in a pattern. And I often think like, how can we stop ourselves from being stuck in the pattern? Sometimes, of course, that's what alcohol does, right? It creates this opportunity to just like you become, as they say, like loose-lipped and you just start saying what's on your mind. Usually with me, it ends up with shouting. So I try not to drink too much, you know.

Good call.

Which isn't very healthy. But I think, you know, that's the thing about drugs is drugs can sometimes legal, you know, as you say, there's stuff around the legality of it all, but sometimes drugs can be that gateway to feeling empowered to be able to have those conversations which maybe under other circumstances might be more challenging.

And I appreciate your vulnerability in sharing around alcohol because I do think it's really important for people to kind of know themselves, know their sensitivities, to know, oh, this might be an area that might not be helpful. And that's why, you know, saying earlier to start small and to kind of just try it out a little bit. Yeah, it's really— people can react many, many different ways.

Yeah.

But also, an important thing about relationships, especially long-term relationships, people change. And something somebody likes sexually at 18, 19, 30 is not the same thing that they're gonna like at 50, 80, 85.

Yeah.

And when you're with someone, there's sort of this way, and depending on the relationship, of course, where you might feel like, oh, I have to stay this way because this is how I have been. But then all of a sudden, somebody has been yearning to do— I mean, we'll call it dirty talk, you know, but they can't because they're like, but I wouldn't say that. So-and-so, my partner, they wouldn't think that I would say that. So how could I do that? But that's what really gets me going, and I want to. So there's a way in which when there is something that's mind-altering, there can be a breaking open of a boundary that may have been there for a long time. And it might be helpful to have that boundary disintegrate a little bit, but then, you know, it might not be great. Like you said, with alcohol, you know, people can react in many different ways if there's something like yelling or shaming or judging, then it's not really going to be helpful. And that's why it's so important, again, with the set and setting. And what are the dynamics between a couple? You know, if there's a history of something that might be abusive or confusing, yeah, it might get exacerbated. So, you know, with a lot of forethought And also a lot of intention setting. It's going to be important to go into a situation like that.

Yeah. And so do you, when you're working specifically with couples, do they— are there kind of specific circumstances at which you see them more than in other circumstances? So is there normally something that's happened which has been troubling? Or, you know, like, in what circumstances would I to somebody like you? What would— why would I do that?

I mean, there are many different reasons. One might be a difference in level of desire. Somebody might want sex more, or someone might want sex much less. There might be— we're bumping up against this communication problem, and we can't not argue about it. Um, it might be— if it's a heterosexual couple, there might be erectile variation, there might be an arousal disorder going on, and they don't know how to talk about it, or there's so much shame that they haven't really even named it. There's just— they attempt to have sex and they don't know how to get past this because there has to be a conversation. I mean, a lot of people that I work with, they don't know how or that they should have conversations about sex outside of the bedroom. There's never talk about it. But then they get into the bedroom and then they get into this dynamic that's going on and they're like, oh, let's talk about it now. But we're in such a vulnerable position that then there's blame, there's shame. There's judgment, and then there's shutdown. And then now what do we do? So then they might come to me, and then I would help them talk about it. But then I would also give them suggestions of homework, home play, I like to call it, of what they can do outside of the office so that then they can get back on track and they can get back to loving each other emotionally, physically, spiritually in ways that are satisfying to them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, look, I think it's, you know, we all get into sort of predictable patterns. And I think they, my, my experience is that if you don't set a good pattern early, you almost inevitably set a bad one. It's far easier to fall into an unhealthy pattern in relationships and then have to find your way to it, to a good healthy pattern.

Yes.

It's to start as you mean to go on by being super open with a new person where there's very low risk involved, right? Because you've just met them. If it doesn't work out, you're like, well, it's just not going to work out. That's a shame. They seemed really nice, but you know, sayonara. Whereas when you've been with someone a long time, sometimes it's just so much easier to fall into this bad behavior. And I almost wish that people, instead of going to see people like you when things got rocky, went to see people like you at the beginning of relationships and said, right, let's figure out how we're going to talk to each other about sex. Let's figure out how we're going to talk about intimacy. Let's figure out if we're on the same page with this. Rather than, oh, things are fucked up now.

I mean, it's so true. People are more apt to go to a workshop in the beginning. Yeah, they might. But you know, things feel so good in the beginning, and you're thinking, why the heck would we ever have to invite someone else to come in and talk? I mean, we know what we're doing. Look how lovely this is. And so they're more apt to go to a workshop that might be around sexual intimacy, or even just communication.

Yeah.

And it's true, I always say if people could just come in a little bit earlier, you know, there's, you know, people starting a relationship, maybe they go in for one time, and then they just get a couple tools, and then they go on and they have more thriving relationships, rather than these relationships that turn into something that's more of resentment, and it feels so stale. And it's just like, oh, we're just doing this life thing together, because we we said we would, rather than we're doing this life thing together and we get to do it together.

Yeah, more exciting the second way, but yes, people never seem to do that. I recall going with a partner to— this is, this is when things go bad, right? At the beginning of a relationship. Well, in, in the early stages of a relationship with someone that's sadly not on the earth anymore. But, uh, the first thing that we did was I wanted him— he said he loved to dance, so I said, okay, let's go and dance to a dance class. 'cause I love swing dancing, so let's do that. And it turned out that he really had no rhythm whatsoever. So he really struggled with that. He was, he really, really couldn't get his feet moving in time to the music. You know, it was just a disaster. I got really frustrated and ended up shouting at him the whole time. The fact we stayed together was a miracle. So anyway, that didn't work out. So I was like, okay, that one didn't work out. So let's move on to something else that might be fun. And so we went to do a massage training day together. 'cause we thought, oh, we'll give each, we'll learn how to give each other a massage and that'll be really nice. And so we went again, we went to like a local college and we did this day course in massage. And the teacher was, there were a few people in the class who couldn't speak much English. And the teacher got very frustrated with their lack of understanding of what she was trying to teach. And so she started shouting and the whole workshop became incredibly fraught and anxiety provoking because she was quite an anxious person herself. And rather than being relaxing, it was anything but relaxing. Oh, you know, the thing about all of this is what I'm saying is like, choose your workshops wisely. Like, yes, like, like, yes, if you don't like something or it just didn't deliver you quite into what you were expecting, like, that doesn't mean all hope is lost. But, you know, You might, you might have to look around for a few different sorts of things that you like, but it's true.

I mean, I do love a massage workshop in the beginning. You know, it's hard. It's really hard, especially when you just see someone's bio and it sounds really great and you just, you're like, oh, they know what they're doing and they're teaching massage. So of course they're going to be relaxed and of course they're going to show me how to do this. But it You just don't know about people once you get in there, and then you do. So I do love that idea though, because massage is such a good way for couples to get intimate together. It's good, it's relaxing. There's a way in which the central nervous systems of both partners can really just link up beautifully. And especially with seniors, having a touch that's not directly sexual but more sensual is so, so important. And when there is a— either a desire mismatch or a frequency mismatch, um, starting out with something that's less directly sexual, like massage, is so, so key. And the other key in sex therapy, I'm sure you know, but there's this technique called sensate focus.

I just heard about it. Yeah.

Oh, great. It's really, I mean, it's from Masters and Johnson. It's tried and true. It's been really helpful for so many people. And the key is to take it slow. When you're introducing, say there's a couple who they have not been physically intimate for months, years, decades, and they want to be again. So to introduce this technique to them can be really, really essential. But it's starting off with, say, just kind of touching non-sexually, holding hands, exploring, exploring the skin, exploring what it's like to just kiss, and then working up to things like massage, but making sure there's a timer of like, okay, this is when we're going to end. And then they switch, and then they work up to getting more sexual. But that's why working with a professional, a sex therapist, is really, really helpful, because nobody learns how to do this. Nobody gets a manual. Nobody, you know, sex education is— it still leaves a lot to be desired. And if even if it's existent at all, So doing exercises like these can really be helpful to get couples back together and getting them really excited about each other again.

Yeah, I just read about sensate focus about a week ago or something, and I made a little video, and I, you know, I hadn't heard about it before and thought, oh, you know, that just makes so much sense. Just, you know, more of the tease, luring somebody into the idea of feeling more sexual over, you know, a week or whatever it happens to be, rather than thinking, okay, it's all going to happen today or it's not going to happen at all. Takes so much pressure off people. You know, the thing I was wondering about it, because of course the illustration that I saw of it was a young couple, they looked like they were kind of in their 30s, right? It was the typical illustration that one would see. And I could imagine that if things have gone a bit awry in your sex life and suddenly, you know, you're like, hey, I saw this thing, do you want to check it out? There's got to be consent by both parties, right? Somebody's got to actually bring up, you know, I noticed we haven't been intimate in a while, and I was wondering if perhaps maybe we want to try this, right? Because it could so often lead to going down a rabbit hole, that conversation of ick.

Yeah, right. Yeah.

They always with these sorts of techniques, I think, in principle, it all sounds good. The reality is, I didn't have sex for the last 4 years of my marriage. I, I would have struggled to even bring that up.

Oh, yeah.

You know, like, I really would have done. I probably, if I'd gone to see a professional, which we did, I probably would, if they'd brought it up, then I would have gone, oh, what do you think in post-session? I thought that was a good idea. What did you think about that? Maybe we should try that, right? But then the door's already been opened. I think sometimes we talk about these things like, oh, it's quite a nice thing to do. And then you think, yeah, but in principle, how am I going to raise that topic if I've never talked about any of this? And if we've just literally buried our head in the sand for the past 10 years while we've ignored the fact that we have no intimate life. Like, how are we going to suddenly like go, hey, let's talk about the fact we haven't had sex in 10 years, you know, right.

And I mean, this is why maybe they're listening to this podcast. And then they say, hey, you know, I heard this podcast and Suzanne Noble Noble is talking about this. What do you think about if we try this, you know, going, having these outlets that people are like, oh yeah, I can listen to this more readily because even if it were just, you know, 20, 30 years ago, people wouldn't hear about this.

No, no, that's right. Well, I didn't know about it then. I got divorced 20 years ago, no awareness of it. And I guess this technique is as old as the hills because it's Masters and Johnson. It must be, must have been around forever, right? But, but again, we just, I didn't get any opportunity to figure any of this stuff out. So yeah, If you're listening and you think that's a good idea, then yeah, by all means, use us as an example.

Yes, yes, yes. That's the thing too. If somebody goes to a professional, if someone hears somebody talking about it, it's so much easier than just, I have this idea, because a lot of time couples get into this, you know, one person feels nagged about something and then the other one is just like, oh, I'm so done with it. You just keep talking about it. And then we get into the shame dynamics again, and then nobody talks about it. So if there is some sort of accountability or some sort of outside influence, that, that can be so, so helpful for couples to kind of break open this barrier that's there, even in the communication and in the expression of who they really are.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, look, I always advocate going to see professionals. I hope that lots of professionals have been on this podcast are getting work from this because I always say, like, you're doing such a great service. And one of the, you know, one of my angry little thoughts today was about the fact that, you know, clearly there's a lot of people out there who are struggling. I hear from them all the time. And the professionals are also, you know, usually they don't have the budgets to be able to broadcast enough about what they do to the world. So, you know, you're relying on people like me, maybe a Facebook page, word of mouth, a directory, you know, but it's not easy. And, and people often just don't know where to go for help because their doctor's not directing them to people like you, right? So they're kind of a bit stuck. And it's, you know, and it's a real shame because there are so many people I've spoken to over the past couple of years doing some amazing, amazing work and clearly helping people. But helping only those people who can find them, right?

Yeah. And our work, I mean, you know, we work in private. It's confidential. We're not even, you know, we're not presenters. You know, we work mostly one-on-one or in groups with, you know, very sensitive topics. We're not out and about, you know. So it is challenging. And more people could really benefit, but they don't— sometimes they don't even know that there's something that exists or someone that exists that they can talk to.

No, and that's what I, what I've recognized is that mostly people don't know where they can go for help anyway, but they know they can go to you now in the Bay Area. And who knows, maybe we'll meet up when I'll come in.

Yes, that would be amazing. I would love it.

That would be so fun. We could go for some edibles.

We could go, um, I could show you where you could get some, um, lube.

I feel another program coming on. Right? All right, Denise, it's been lovely, lovely to chat to you. I will put all your socials and website and stuff in the summary.

Great, thank you.