Why Sex Changes After Menopause (And Why That's Not a Bad Thing) | ft. Dr. Kelly Barron

As my girlfriend showed me one day when I said I wasn't getting any matches, she just literally pulled the bar down across the screen and it made my search from 55 and above to like 37 and above. And I was like, what are you doing?

What are you doing?

I don't want to go out with a 37-year-old. My son is 35. That's gross. And suddenly it was like bing bing. Yeah, right. And I just went— and she would see, see, see, there's lots of people who think that you're fucking hot and amazing. And I said, yeah, but they're like, they're like my children. They're like my children. Do they like us for the long term? Probably not. But for short-term fun, or I mean, I guess if you're Madonna, maybe they're in it for the long term. But, you know, by and large, I think most, most younger men are looking at older women as fun, short-term relationships, you know, whatever. And then, you know, it's because they've received no education. There's no, there's no media coverage of any of and the people that we think should be our role models are being very quiet, very quiet. One of the recent things that I had that some— I did with somebody that I thought was actually was really fun is I said, oh, I've just bought this, you know, new piece of lingerie. Would you like to see, you know, me in it? And he said, he said, he said no. He said, I want you, I want you to describe what it looks like first.

Oh, I love this. I love this.

Oh, I love this. And so— Hi, this is Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. And I don't know about you, but I'm a massive lover of chocolate. And in fact, when I was in Southeast Asia, I got a bit addicted to a Japanese brand called Darko, which I ate every single day practically while I was there. And then in Thailand, I discovered some other chocolate, which is also really yummy. And then I went to Vietnam and I found some chocolate there called Mr. Viet, which I had to bring back. So I came back from Southeast Asia with about 6 bars of chocolate that I gave out to my friends. But of course, Anyone who's a lover of chocolate and a woman will know that there's a legitimate reason why women especially like chocolate, and that's because chocolate makes us happy. Like, I believe that's actually a scientific fact, that chocolate makes us happy. So I'm so delighted to be able to talk about one of my favorite topics, chocolate, with someone who I only just discovered has developed a brand of chocolate that helps a woman, a woman with their libido. So that's like my two favorite topics rolled into one. I just can't— I'm so excited to have this conversation. Um, so I'm welcoming Dr. Kelly Barron. She's in Charleston, South Carolina. She's got this brand of chocolate called Dr. Kellfire. Kelly, tell me, how did this all start?

Well, it all started— and thank you for having me on the show, and, and we're going to get to talk about chocolate and sex, so I don't— I couldn't be more excited right now.

Um, you're amazing, like, so thrilled.

I started, um, I had designed, um, some— a few chocolate formulas that I thought, like, women, just like you said, women and chocolate, how can we make it therapeutic So, you know, we came up with 3 chocolates originally. Scorched Earth, which was our hormone-balancing PMS chocolate. I thought that's a match made in heaven. That right there is a match made in heaven. We came up with Hot Mess, which is a mushroom chocolate. So it was more for anxiety and stress. Again, what woman wouldn't love that? And then, Misbehave. And that is a chocolate that has fenugreek, maca, and ashwagandha in it. So, to support desire, support those feelings of, give you a little energy, give you, that's, I call it the oxytocin effect, more or less, that just like, I'm comfortable, I'm happy, you're looking very cute over there. And also, it could be great for solo. So, either way, It has— it morphed though, because those 3 particular herbs are also good for males. So we see a lot of couples buy it and sort of do the date night thing as part of their ritual. You know, we'd go on a date, have the chocolate. It's just all fun and it makes everything, you know, just that much better.

Wow, that's so cool. And so did you have a background in making chocolate?

I had a background in eating chocolate, but I did not have a background in making chocolate. In fact, our manufacturer, they had actually stumbled upon— well, they acquired a company, and with that company came chocolate equipment to make chocolate. And while I was developing the other supplements, the usual suspects— protein, greens drinks and things like that. He, he talked to me about the chocolate. He said, what do you think about doing something though in chocolate? We have these, this equipment. And I thought, well, yeah, can we do that? And so we collaborated together on R&D and how this was going to go about. And, and then the rest is history.

Wow. And is it dark milk chocolate? Like, what is it? And is it bars like truffles? Like, what does it look like?

So chocolate, this is something that I learned. Everybody looks at the percentage of cacao. And when our bars first came out, we had 60% cacao and we're like, okay, well, we're milk chocolate. And that's not the case. There's no milk product in my chocolate. It's technically a dark chocolate. Milk would be up to 35%. So it's a dark chocolate. And we originally had it in a bar where you just broke off a piece, but that's not very sexy when it's a couple. So what we did is we created a box that has individually wrapped, so you can have one and have all the fun you want on your own or with your partner, or you both can have one. You can— the, the object or the thought behind the process was like you could be really sexy. You could throw them in your purse, you could take them when you travel, or you could just leave it by your bed stand. My, uh, one of the women in the company, my partner Kat, she and I created— we just got a little fancy one day and we started making things with the chocolate. So we dipped strawberries in the chocolate and we made sure we got a full serving on like 2 strawberries, or we shaved it on an espresso martini. We were just trying to be really creative. Ice cream, we did ice cream on top, just to make it like fun, you know, bring back the playfulness that we all had in our, all right, we'll say late teens. We probably shouldn't say that, or early 20s.

Yeah, I think it's a brilliant idea and I've not seen anyone else doing that. And those little wrappers in England, we have something called After Eights. I don't know if you're familiar with—

I do, I do.

They remind me a bit of After Eights. Of course, After Eights are kind of gooey on the inside, which is like, they're minty and gooey and they're lovely. And yeah, I still have a fondness for After Eights as well. So the little packages that you just showed me reminded me of, but of After Eights. But yeah, I mean, I, I think that, look, my, my, uh, a guy that I was with, we had a ritual after we'd have sex where we'd eat chocolate. Because like it just made us feel good. But it was always, it was always Reese's Peanut Butter Cups. So it's, um, I know, right?

How could you go that— that's step phase 2. Phase 2. I love that.

Phase 2 is with peanut butter, I think. But yeah, I mean, I just think there's something about sex and chocolate that is always— even if we didn't know that it was good for us and for our sex drive, there's something that has drawn us to chocolate. When we have sex. I just think there is—

there's that again. It's the ritual, it's the, the luxury feeling, um, you know, it just, it just heightens everything. Because, you know, when you think of a sexual experience and you think, let's try to, let's try to set the environment, let's try to hit all 5 senses, and, you know, taste— everybody'd go, oh, you know, flavored lube, or, or just the taste of skin or whatever you want to go. And, well, here you have chocolate too. You can taste your chocolate. Yeah.

So have you moved beyond South Carolina with this? I mean, where is it being sold?

Yep. We— you can— we have our website, drkellfire.com, nationally, um, and we're on Amazon and we're growing. We're still small, and, and I hope to come out with different versions of the product, but it's been a lot of fun. We went from a very apothecary style to now we've decided we're going with Midnight Carnival. And so our tagline is, the show starts when the lights go down. And we've kind of got this, the sexy girl with a top hat and a whip is our sort of our mascot now for that. And just try to, we just wanted to make it fun and something that intrigued you and sometimes even, even just seeing the packaging and the colors already kind of gets your brain wired in that direction.

Yeah, it's got a kind of vintagey feel to it.

Yeah, I was like trying or thinking at some point I would love to have just burlesque women, just burlesque influencers, you know, having the chocolate and doing something with burlesque, um, because that's what the feel has to me too, that very vintage pinup kind of feel.

Yeah, that's— I totally saw that when you showed that to me. So aside from being a chocolatier now, you're also a menopause specialist and, and a chiropractor. And I wondered, that's such an interesting combo. Why the chiropractor side with the menopause? How does— do they relate or are they completely separate disciplines for you, or how do they work together?

They, they actually work pretty seamlessly together because, um, I've worn a lot of hats. And I graduated chiropractic school in '98, and from there we, um, my husband and I had had a practice in Denver, Colorado. And I would— and then I started having babies because I was in my late 20s, and I really became infatuated with pregnancy, chiropractic, the body, how it all worked. I got licensed as an acupuncturist also. So once I was done in my baby phase, I went into childbirth education, and from there, as part of my specialty— and you have chiropractic helps a lot with, with all the joint issues that go along with pregnancy, Webster technique when you have a breech baby, things of that nature. So then I went into childbirth education. And then because I love to learn, um, I grew with my patients. So as they went from their pregnancy, childbearing years into perimenopause, which we didn't know a whole lot about— I mean, my mom never talked to me about that. I didn't even know what menopause really was. Um, and, and my own body was changing. So I certified in, uh, as a menopause specialist, um, and a strength and conditioning specialist so that I could continue to work work with women on their bodies because they would come saying they have joint pain, which no one talks about really, or brain fog or fatigue. Those, those issues, not necessarily the vasomotor issues like hot flashes and night sweats, but more of the daily, my life is changing and I don't quite get it. And that's when I learned it goes a lot beyond simply just adjustments. And changing things of that nature. So, I started working with women in that way, creating different networks for them because I believe women need more than one type of provider at this stage of life, someone that specializes in just about everything, you know, to kind of go along— mental, physical, you name it. And then, from there, what really started coming up with women really, when they felt comfortable with me, wanted to talk about but, but couldn't quite do it. And then I'd sit and have conversations was sex life and sex. And that was their biggest concern. Some of them could get through hot flashes, they could get through night sweats, they could get through brain fog. But what they couldn't get was what is happening to my body, my sex drive, the physical issues that come with it, my confidence. And so then I became a certified sexologist because I thought this all just blends. Like, I've got to know the whole body and I've got to help women in this path.

Yeah, and I think one of the things that we don't talk enough about is the fact that it's not just about being disconnected sometimes from our libido, for example, and feeling like, where's it gone? And it's disappeared. But often, I know certainly that lots of women feel very disconnected from their bodies at this stage of life, and they feel like, where's that middle section What's— how's that just appeared? You know, what am I gonna do about that? And they just, they just experience a lack of body confidence. Last week I did a naked, sort of semi-naked photo shoot with a photographer who's doing photographs of women over 50, and I'm pretty comfortable taking my clothes off and, and prancing around. It did take me a while to kind of warm up and feel kind of liberated, if you like, in front of her. But I was asking her about just generally, you know, some of the other people that she's been photographing. And we were talking about how difficult it can be at this stage of life to feel comfortable about our bodies when they are changing and we don't really recognize them. How do you approach that with your clients?

Well, you know, I try to start asking them First and foremost, what, you know, what's going on? Is it simply a confidence issue and an emotional shift? Is there, you know, are you dealing with physical symptoms like vaginal dryness or pain with intercourse, reduced libido? And then we get into that, which, which all of those will lead to a disconnect in your body. It's almost as if, why is my body betraying me? Yeah, with difficulty with arousal and orgasm, and they don't quite understand, and they think that, um, they start to get their confidence dips, their, their feeling that they're desirable and un— and unsure who they are sexually, and they think that there's got to be a medication for this. There's got to be. Like, it's not, it's not me. There has to be a medication for it. But while there are things and tools for that, for the different issues, I tell people menopause is not the end of your sex life. It is the end of your sex life as you used to have it, but it's the beginning of your sex life that you now, because you're past your childbearing years, you are transitioning, metamorphosing, if you will, into a new female. You get to design this sexual life on your own terms this time. And with it comes education for what the changes are and how do you deal with them. And right from the start, once we've talked about the physical and emotional and we've started creating that toolbox, I say you've got to remove the pressure. You've got to give yourself grace. The only way to reclaim your pressure— uh, your pleasure— isn't just jumping right into sex. You got to take sex off the table right from the start and start, you know, noticing your own body, your body awareness, sensations. What do you like? How do you— how do you like to be touched? Um, do you like massage? What sounds do you like? They could all have changed since our 20s.

Yeah, I think it's a really good point. I mean, it's one of the things that I bring up all the time is the fact that We're not going to go back, you know. We're not going to recapture the, that vibrant feeling of our youth when we just used to look at somebody across a room and get all wet and juicy, you know. It's good. It's going to be different. And designing what that difference looks like can be challenging when we don't have many role models actually of older sexual women to be able to even talk about it. I mean, even to be honest, when you look at like the sexy chicks are out there, the Madonnas of this world and Cher and Helen Mirren and all these kind of older women who are, you know, looking great and they're, they're looking, they're doing things and they don't talk about sex. They never, they never talk about sex. They look sexy, they might have a young person on their arm, but they don't actually talk about the physical changes You never hear them ever discussing. I know because I've asked them all to come on the show, and funnily enough, they just don't ever say yes. I'm just saying.

You know, it's so funny that you bring up Madonna because, you know, she's all over the news in the last 24 hours because of being at Coachella here in America. And I had that exact same thought today. I was looking at her dancing at Coachella. And she had her 27-year-old boyfriend on her arm. And I was like, I just want to ask her, like, are you having the same problems? And this is all like just not a facade, but you're, you're, you're not talking denial by omission. And, or have you found some secret water we need to be drinking?

I'm— I feel exactly the same way. I feel like there's all these women, and her especially, right? Because She's always harping on about the fact that, you know, you can be sexual as an older woman. You can do this, you can look this way, you can still be hot, all of this. Great, I agree with her. But what is actually going on in your own intimate life? Like, what is going on? Like, are you on vaginal estrogen? Are you— are you fucking 3 times a day? Are you like taking testosterone? Like, what are you doing? Like, I want— I, I want to know. I want to know. Because I think it's useful for other people to know, like, this is how you get like this. It's not— and maybe she's not having sex, right? Who the hell knows? I don't know. Maybe it's all just like you say, like one big act, and, and she's not doing anything. But all I know is that none of these women ever talk about it, ever. So when all these, you know, when women come to people like you and they speak to women like me And they're going, I don't know what the fuck's going on here. I'm just not feeling hot anymore, except, you know, with hot flashes. I'm not feeling sexy. I feel invisible when I walk in a room, you know. I've got this little tummy, blah, blah, blah. It's a bit dry down there. What do I do? And then, you know, it's because they've received no education. There's no media coverage of any of this. And the people that we think should be our role models being very quiet, very quiet.

You know, New York Times just came out with an article on why younger men love older women. And great article, and you know, it's, it goes, it was a pretty good read. But, you know, you as an older woman, I'm reading this, I'm going, how, how, like, exactly like you said, When you walk into a room, you're like, oh. First of all, you're like, I'm only going into places with low lighting so that they cannot see the wrinkles and the bags under my eyes. And how and why and who is this reporter? But that's why it would be nice for us to know our role models. These women are out there, whether it's younger men or they just have a really great, you know, they've had long-term relationship or things like that. Are you as human as I am so I can feel good about where I am in my life? Or are you just like, am I not doing it right? And you clearly are doing it very right. It would be really nice.

And you know what, I mean, there's— there was an article— I mean, there's been a lot of media coverage recently about over-60 sex lives. A lot. I mean, yesterday somebody on LinkedIn was like, oh, yet another article about people over 60 are still having sex. Like, you know, it's a big deal, right? And people are— and older women are going out with younger men. I mean, I can tell you that if you go on dating apps like Field or Tinder or any of those, and as my girlfriend showed me one day when I said I wasn't getting any matches, she just literally pulled the bar down across the screen and it made my search from 55 and above to like 37 and above. And I was like, what are you doing? What are you doing? I don't want to go out with a 37-year-old. My son is 35. That's gross. And suddenly it was like, bing, bing, bing. And I just went— and she went, see, see, see, there's lots of people who think that you're fucking hot and amazing. And I said, yeah, but they're like— they're like my children. They're like my children. And I understand that. And I know Cindy Gallup, we've had conversations She's been on my show. She's, you know, she is one of the main advocates for the benefits of going out with younger men. And I do get it, like, younger men have their benefits, right? They're, they're interested in older women probably because, well, frankly, we're easy, right? We're just, we're just easy. We're drama-free. We, you know, we don't have much estrogen, so there's not a lot of drama going on there.

We've got a lot of experience.

We've got a lot of experience. We know how to go down on a guy and make him feel good. And, you know, mostly— and, and I think that I get why they— I get why they like us. I, you know, it's perfectly obvious. Do they like us for the long term? Probably not. But for short-term fun— or, I mean, I guess if you're Madonna, maybe they're in it for the long term. But, you know, by and large, I think most, most younger men are looking at older women as fun, short-term relationships. You know, whatever. Um, but for older women, I just think, yeah, okay, it's kind of nice, but there's something to be said about age-appropriate relationships, and there's something to be said about being able to talk to a man and have the same relative cultural references and all of that sort of stuff. And I do think that these articles just generally are not indicative. I don't know about you, but they're not indicative of what I see generally.

No, no, definitely not. I think a majority, um, of women— sure, you may go through, if you've come out of a long-term marriage or divorce, and you may have your sow your wild oats phase, but I think at this point most of us are just looking for someone to grow old with that can be our best friend and you know, a very healthy sex life is paramount. It's very important. But also someone that, that also is going through a transition or metamorphosis too. So you're not alone in this. This wasn't like it was before, but we'll find our way.

Yeah, I agree. And I, and I think that, you know, the media often misrepresents this group of people by suggesting and also making women that don't feel particularly sexual feel totally inadequate. So, you know, on the one hand, we've got celebrities who are parading around with young people on their arm often, but really are keeping stum when it comes to their own sex lives. And then we've got articles promoting normal people that are having amazing sex post-60. And whilst my— the sex I'm having at my age, I have to say, is good, um, I'm happy with it overall. Is it as good as it was when I was 40? No, it is not.

It's—

I'm not as responsive. I'm not as, you know, it takes me a lot longer to have an orgasm. I'm not as responsive. It's a lot— I have to slow down. It takes me longer to get aroused. I mean, let's get real. Like, it's not as— these articles are not helping women to feel better about where they are right now. That's, that's what I think anyway.

No, I think at this age we're— we've moved away from spontaneous to responsive sex. So with responsive, there's a lot that goes into it, and you just have to have the mindset that it's, it's again a ritual. It's all part of the fun, whether that's, you know, to get aroused and get into the mood, especially as a female, to go take a hot shower, warm bath, put some sort of scented oil or perfume on, like candles, all the things. Like, get the mood set. Take 30 minutes, drink it up, soak it up. And then your partner has to also understand it could be another 20, 30 minutes before, you know, it's go time. So it's playtime at that, that point. And just enjoy the experience. The bonus of it is we're not worried about kids walking in, rushing around on schedules, on no sleep. We have more time to let this unfold. Maybe it's not gonna be every night, but maybe you take a night a week and just really have a lot of fun. Have a date night in your bedroom.

I totally agree. I mean, I've been doing that for years, and I'm a big advocate of scheduling sex because, you know, the preparation and getting into the mood, as you say, doing the whole thing, putting on sexy lingerie, all of that is part of the ritual about getting into the headspace of, I am going to be doing this tonight, and I'm gonna be looking forward to that because I know it's gonna happen, as opposed to— and, and I think there's nothing wrong with that. I think there's, there's something really fun and playful, as you said, about, about making it a whole story.

I agree. Taking it from that morning, you know, just because we're older and some of our parts are facing south instead of straight ahead and we've got wrinkles and things, you can still play that up. You could still, you know, you could text your partner in the morning. You don't even have to send a picture. You could simply say, I'm so excited for tonight. And then you could, you know, you could get a little spicier in the afternoon with a picture or a picture of your lingerie or something like that if you're self-conscious. And to keep that, keep that momentum building till you're at date time. And that goes a long way too. You just got to get creative and not feel embarrassed and not feel ashamed. You stay within your comfort zone and you do fun things.

Yeah, I agree. And I, and I think the, um, one of the recent things that I had that some— I did with somebody that I thought was actually was really fun is I said, oh, I've just bought this, you know, new piece of lingerie. Would you like to see, you know, me in it? And he said, he said, he said no. He said, I want you, I want you to describe what it looks like first.

Oh, I love this. I love this.

Oh, I love this. And so because I'm a writer, you know, it's like, yeah, it's like, go, oh, you know It's black lace. It's, it's like a deep V-neck. It's got no back. It's doing this. It's like this. It's stretchy. It's la la la la la. And I had to go into like detail about this, you know, piece of lingerie, right? And tell the whole story about it. And then, and while I was telling that story, of course my brain was like starting to gear up like, oh, I'm really liking just the way this is unfolding. So rather than it's just like, send me a picture, yeah, I want to see it. It was like, no, no, stop. I don't want you to send me a picture. I want to draw this out. I want you to— I want you to write me this story about this piece of lingerie. So I did that, wrote this whole long extensive thing about this thing. And then he was like, okay, now you can send me a picture.

I was— when you first said that, I was like, I'm getting on a flight right now, I'm good, we're tracking this man down, I don't like what he just did. And then when you got into what he actually wanted, I was like, I love this man, perfect.

I know, right? So hot. And I just thought, what people don't realize is like, it's those sorts of moments, right? It's the— it's elongating what used to be quick right? It used to be. So take anything that you do and think, how can you draw this out? Like, what are you going to do? Like, are you going to drip feed the playlist? Are you going to— are you going to describe the, you know, the smell of the candles? Are you going to— like, what's the atmosphere that you're looking to Do you want to tell a story? Do you want to roleplay? Like, there's so many ways, especially as an older person, to make being— having sex with someone so much fun and so much more fun than it used to be when I was younger, when it would just be like so quick. Like, now I really appreciate the person who wants to really draw this out so that by the time I'm in the bedroom, I'm like, I'm so ready.

Right? You're like, go ripping your clothes off. Or if it were me, I'd be like, I'm ripping your clothes off, but I just broke my hip, so you gotta wait 5 seconds. Exactly.

But I suspect I tried, you know, a younger man suggested like a booty call the other day, and I was like, look, I've never met you. I would never do that. And I said, it's not that I would never do that. I would do that, and I have done that. But I said, you have to tell me a story. I said, if you want this, if you want me to engage with this on this level, like this kind of thing, you gotta tell me a story. You gotta set out a scenario for me, like what can I expect to happen? Like, I need you to like show me, show me what I'm entering into here, right? And he— young man— and he just said, I suspect I'm not experienced enough for you. I'm not going to be able to do this. And I just thought, okay, that's fine, you know, like, I'm not doing it either. But I just thought there's a certain type of person, and I suspect it's sometimes it is an older person who has the liberty, the free time, the brain space, the imagination, the creativity to go, actually, this is going to be really fun. I'm gonna, I'm gonna maximize this, you know, opportunity by making this irresistible rather than just saying, no, I can't do this.

Yeah, I think there's a bit of maturity level there, and, um, it just wasn't the right fit. No, you know, that is, that's, you needed that, and it it wasn't going to be the experience you wanted. So that's a great way of vetting them though.

I love that.

So tell me a story.

Yeah, but I think, you know, often when people say, I'm not in the mood, I can't figure out how to get in the mood, I'm not, you know, I'm just not feeling it, it's like they've never had somebody who's wanted to spend the time to really take them to that place where it's playful. And I think that's the thing. By the way, the man who asked me to describe the lingerie to him, he's in Vietnam, sadly.

So, oh, sounds like you're gonna have to go back for a trip.

I know. Honestly, I found that so, so hot. And it was just such a simple thing. And I just went, yeah, yeah, that's going to do it for me. Yeah, for sure.

Well, you know why? Because he was interested in you, not just the act. Like, he was in there. He was picturing you in it.

Yeah, I thought that was hot. Anyway, should we end there? And I can go off and do my thing. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I, you know, I think, I think what we're saying really is that, is that, look, it never— desire doesn't retire. That's what I always say, desire doesn't retire. But it does change. And, and getting your partner in the mood— and it's not just women, it's, it's every— it's men as well. It's like getting in the mood setting the scene. It's part of the joy of having sex as an older person.

That's it. It's, it's realizing, giving yourself grace, realizing you're not lost, you're evolving. The goal is never to go back, and it's, it's to rediscover what works now for you.

Absolutely. Kelly, have a lovely, lovely day.

You too, Suzanne Noble Noble.