Episode 106: Understanding your Yoni & Self-Exploration

Hi, I'm Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. And today I've got another special guest who actually happens to be based in the UK where I'm based, which as any listener will know is actually quite unusual because I speak to people across the globe, but actually very few in the UK if I'm really honest. And her name is Michelle Jermy. She calls herself the Yoni Yoni Therapist. Uh, welcome, Michelle.

Yeah, nice to be here. Thank you.

That's cool. Um, I'm curious to know why you call yourself the Yoni Therapist and what that's all about for you.

Well, I didn't think the Fanny Therapist would go down very well, um, and so, you know, the, the Yoni is— if you know, you know. Um, and I wanted— I specialize in sort of female biomedical issues, so I'm all about what's going on for the woman. Um, so I thought the yoni was a nice feminine touch, and, and it brings up for healthy conversation when obviously you go to networking events.

How many people actually know what it is?

Surprisingly not many. No. And then when I just go and sort of send a little, you know, blog post about it and why the name, it's like, oh, I understand now.

For our listeners, for our listeners, what is the yoni?

Okay, so it's— I always say it's the female embodiment, is those female organs of the, the womb and all of our sexual organs that, that make us feel like a woman, right?

So it's more than just like the vulva and the vagina, it's like the whole area that contributes to us being, being women. Yeah, biologically born women.

Yeah. And, and when we look at the, the flower of my logo, the orchid, that's the symbolization for, for the yoni as well, which I always think about, you know, that, that beautiful like opening of the yoni of the orchid. So that's why on my logo I have a little dot, which is, you know, for anatomy purposes, the clitoris. Yeah, but it's just very subtle. And it's, you know, under the radar.

Fair enough. I think when I think of the yoni, I always think of like tantra. I always think of kind of Indian Kamasutra. It has a kind of Eastern flavor to it for me. Using that word. Yeah, because the, the male equivalent is the lingam.

Mm-hmm.

Which I've always thought, yeah, it just doesn't work for me, that one. I'm afraid it's not because the, you know, like we've got, we've got all sorts of words to describe just generally our genitals, whether it's like pudenda or pussy or whatever. But as you say, the yoni is very expressive in that it is more than just those parts that we can kind of see. It's also about what goes on inside of us. So it's more than that. But it's funny that we're, we're chatting today because last night I did not have a good sleep. And I was trying to distract myself by thinking about things that I haven't talked about, just thinking about sex and stuff in general. And I was thinking, you know, it's— I don't look at my— I don't look at my vulva or anything very often. And because it's not easily viewable, really, like you have to really get a mirror and get, get in there to actually see what it looks like. And actually, somebody wrote to me today and was— when I reflected on the fact that we don't really take enough care about looking after that in the way that we do other parts of our body, giving it the same amount of love and attention, and also understanding it. Like, we know our hair is dry or greasy or whatever, but we don't really know too much about all of that. And yet we expect, often in heterosexual relationships, we expect men to just know it. Even though we don't know it ourselves half the time. And I also think that when I was younger, I remember, and all of that area was being developed, I remember feeling a lack of confidence around whether it was normal, quote unquote normal. And I have a friend who's not dissimilar in age to me who's actually thought about doing some surgical reconstruction around that area because she also is worried that it's not quote unquote normal. Of course, when you've seen enough of them, which most of us have not, we realize there is no normal. It just is what it is. And everybody's very different in the same way that a penis looks very different, right?

Yeah, I think this is a whole thing that one of the things that I wish we could do into schools is actually that understanding on, you know, how different the vulva can look. And I love— I always showcase that the vulva, ah, the vulva wall, and it's, you know, they do look different and it's normalizing. And it's funny you say about a mirror because the story that I always say is the use of phones now. Like, if you've got a modern phone, you can take a picture, like reverse the camera, take a picture, and then you can enlarge. And but just don't send it to anyone. That's the thing, just don't send to anyone. But it's just that whole notion of exactly that. If we don't know what's normal for us, how do we know if there are changes?

Yeah, yeah. And, and it's funny, years ago actually, I was introduced to a woman who painted vulvas, and she did a painting of mine, like a color, like an abstract sort of painting. I gave her a photograph and then she created the picture. But if you line them all up, and she had a wall of these abstract, um, images How many of us could pick our own one out? I mean, honestly, if she had not told me that was mine, I don't think I could have done it.

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what I say to so many of my clients is, you know, one, you've got the, the visual look. Do you know how yours looks? But also just to be comfortable with how you respond. So just insert a finger into your vagina and what does that feel like? Allow your pelvic floor muscles to work. But it's just that whole notion of one penetrating vagina with your own finger is a— oh, can't, can't do that.

Yeah.

And then versus, you know, the, the bodily changes we steer away from.

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I've spoken to so many people since I started this who don't really understand the changes that are occurring and just think, for instance, that pain is a normal part of aging and intercourse, right? So, you know, they don't really understand some of the stuff that you can do to overcome that. But it's funny that you probably, if you're the only therapist, I'm sure that you're familiar with Betty Dodson. And her amazing work that she did. She used to be— she died a few years ago, but she used to hold these group workshops for women where they would all examine both their own and other women's vulvas. It sounds pretty radical, but actually, when you read about what happened during those sessions, you realize how liberating it was for other women to be able to see what, what people look like alongside their own, you know, vulva, and how that made them feel more comfortable and more confident in their own— with their own anatomy, right?

Exactly. And that, you know, we retract right back to that goes to just even pubic hair, that goes to even, you know, the amount of body fat, muscle around the actual yoni area, that I don't know, as a society we do not allow ourselves to just accept our own bodies, which I do tend to find is definitely a decrease in sexual desire or interest as we're aging. It's that acceptance of the change in body. We don't even know what it's changed from.

That's right. It's so true. It's so true. I mean, if you've been, you know, I think those of us who may have been more sexually active than others, when I do reflect on, you know, how long it takes me to orgasm or to just get generally aroused, I do think back to my younger days where a showerhead was all I needed and it would just, and it would just all go off. Or, you know, I could just sit on top of somebody and just rub a few times. And I think, oh gosh, that was so nice. But you know, I think those days are gone for me. And I have to, I have to live with that. Although I did, I did speak with a man recently, a doctor who, who gives his wife testosterone jabs. And apparently, that has an incredible impact on all of that, not just from the libido point of view, but also from the visual point of view, plumps up the clitoris, makes it look a little bit unusual, shall we say, and more, more like maybe a little penis. And, you know, he was talking about it and, and his wife's enjoyment of all of that. So, you know, there are, there are ways to get that back if you're really, if you really want to be able to feel that way. So, but if you didn't know how you felt before, then, then you don't know what you can feel like now.

Or— yeah, I think to go off that as well, that if we think about, you know, we widely now know that yes, as we get older, the vagina, the walls do get thinner, we become less lubricated. But I think what we don't discuss so freely is how that does look in the bedroom. So, you know, gone are the— exactly what you said there— gone are the days where you know, a quick— the shower head can stimulate, can cause arousal, or we can reach the orgasm. You know, friction is a no-no, you know, no fast and hard too quickly. And it's about changing the way that we perform the foreplay. Um, it's about maybe the use of sex toys to stimulate the clitoris as opposed to, you know, we're not moving into penetration. So it's, it's, it's taking the time with that foreplay. So I call it core play. Um, you know, you know, prolong it and just enjoy the process as opposed to the end goal. And I think that's what, as women, I think that's where we're falling short. We don't voice actually slower, you know, um, gentle, longer, build the arousal, and I will get there, you know. And it's just that whole, oh, it takes me longer, I'll just avoid it, I'm embarrassed, I'm not like I used to be, etc.

Listen, it's easy to feel shame around all of this stuff. And I'm certainly not immune to that. And for men as well, it can take a lot more friction for them to get off. And I suspect there's some degree of shame around all of this, right? It's about how we overcome that and talk about it. One of the people that contributes to my website, Advantages of Age, was talking today about how you, how you bring up the conversation about your decreasing libido or your need for for longer foreplay or coreplay, as you said, and how, you know, what are the practical ways that we can start to deal with that stuff? Because for many people, they've never talked about sex anyway with their partner, and suddenly things start to not work as they should, and it can be really difficult to, to have those conversations, you know.

Yeah, definitely. I think there becomes more reasons to not have sex, you know, that's how people perceive it anyway. So, you know, you've got one, the biological changes of the aging process, add in all the other stressors that can be, you know, basically medical conditions, sure, um, can be medications, etc. It's easy to go, how the hell do we start this conversation? It's like listing all of the things that are going against us. Um, that's a passion killer in itself, you know. If arousal was on the, on the cards, that's gone. And I think, you know, it's, it's knowing that if there was something else in our body that needed fixing, we would fix it. So, you know, before we started here, we were talking about feet. You know, if we have problems with our feet, which is common with aging, but we go and see to them, you know, we pull off the feet, they get naked, and we go fix them. Now we start applying our creams, we massage them, we put them in a spa. Yeah. And we don't think anything of it. Yeah. Comes to our sexual organs and there's so much shame, guilt, performance anxiety that we just lock it away and just try to forget about it.

Yeah. And it's a really good point about the feet because if your feet are really bad, right, and most older people will relate to this, you will go and see a podiatrist and you will deal with them, or you'll go and you'll get a a pedicure or you'll go and do something, right? But if you're— if something is going on with your vagina or your, or your libido, whatever, how many people will take themselves off to a specialist and go, let's fix this, I need to fix this. And maybe they'll read some books, maybe. But I suspect a lot of people will just say, I can't deal with this. I don't want to deal with this. This is too uncomfortable for me. And, you know, we hear lots of people that have just given up because it's just, they can't work out how to fix it. And of course, the problem with, you know, to a certain extent with people like you is it's not like the NHS is prescribing you, right? It's not like It's not like you're going down to the high street and it goes feet, fingernails, vulva. So it's hard to get, you know, it's hard to know how to access the help that you need. That, I mean, I think that's one of the biggest problems of this whole area of sex in later life is, is accessing the help you need is not easy.

And, and it's interesting you say that because obviously you're in London, so it is a postcode lottery that on the NHS we do have clinical sexologists that are still in post, but not in every area. And obviously with so many funding cuts, but a sex and relationship therapist, a clinical sexologist, these, you know, we are the exact people to be referred to to then be able to go, you know, just help me here. And this is something that I would say predominantly with my couples therapy, they come in and they're like, please, you know, I've had a hysterectomy, or my husband's got erectile issues, we do not want this to be the end, please help. Yeah. And it's so refreshing that I'm like, yeah, you should be still be able to have pleasure, to have intimacy, to have sex, to be able to look at this sexual map and, and explore without any shame or guilt. And I think that's what my job's about. My job is about, you know, we pull everything on the table and we go, right, how do we change this? How do we make this better? Um, and obviously there are lots of ways, and I think the biggest way that I always say is, you know, what's the biggest barrier to stopping you from being intimate or sexual? And I use those interchangeably because, you know, intimacy can be with or without that physical touch element, whereas sex, we do perceive that more as that physical, but there's much more about desires and the sexual being, etc. So yeah, I think it all starts with actually be vulnerable, talk about it, and go, go, go forward from there.

So you say that there's clinical sexologists available via the NHS. I've spoken to sexual health advisors. They tend to deal more with, you know, STDs, right, with sexually transmitted diseases. I don't hear them talk too much. I'm— I, I know a woman who works with a lot of men, particularly after they've had their— they've had prostate issues, might give them P shots, you know, which are injections to help men become erect. They might work with them a little bit more on erectile dysfunction. It feels like that's more what they're about. I honestly had no clue that the NHS has sexologists.

Yeah, so yeah, we, we are. So I'm obviously based up here in Norfolk, and there is none in Norfolk and Suffolk, so that's why I work privately. But I'm also working in conjunction with the NHS, so I work with the, the physiotherapy department of a local hospital. So, um, for me it's low desire, so those women that are on the menopause list, which is extensive list.

Yeah.

And also pain on penetration. So the physiotherapist will refer if they think it's a psychosocial issue, and that's what I work with. Um, but there are some areas where us as clinical sexologists are sitting in the NHS team.

So that's—

I've literally—

oh, my mind is always blown by what I'm listening to. So you're telling me that if that you're in your particular circumstance, you're attached to physiotherapy. Yeah, see, I, that makes no sense to me, right? Because physiotherapy to me is I broke my arm and I need to get some mobility going in my arm or, you know, some other limb needs more mobility. I never think of physio when it comes to my private parts ever. Yeah, I mean, obviously we've got pelvic floor muscles and stuff like that, that need, that need exercising, but I would never ever, ever think about going to a physio to talk about those things. So is it just by chance that somebody will stumble into, into your service through a a, you know, a journey that makes no sense.

So prior, yeah, so I've been knocking on the doors of the NHS and saying, come on, because I'm going to put it out there. This is my experience. For men, if they have sexual issues, so let's go unreliable erections or erection dysfunction, they can see their GP, they can be given a pill, an injection. And normally we can resolve the issue.

Yep.

If, say, low desire, prescribe testosterone. You know, they are post-40, give them a test, and then they can be obviously, you know, given testosterone. Yep. There's relationship couples counseling. Yeah. But what's missing, and this is why I specialize in, in yoni presenting issues, is anything that's regarded to what we'd call female biomedical. So that is when we hit menopause and the vagina thins and dries, when desire leaves the building. For some people, they're not even able to have penetration. And these, these are for my younger clients.

No, I've got a woman who's desperate writing to me on Facebook like all the time, and I'm recommending dilators to her and telling her to go and see a specialist. She honestly doesn't know who to see. She's real— she— her husband really wants to have sex with her. It's incredibly painful. And she is really at her wit's end trying to find help. You know, she's like, I'm willing to give me a bit. She's like saying to me, I want to give you a donation. I'm like, a donation for what? I'm not— I'm not doing anything other than trying to signpost you to somebody who might be able to help you. But as you said, Like, for women, it's not so clear.

No. Um, and so this is where obviously I've been trying to push now forward. So with the NHS, what happens, somebody will say, enough's enough, it's causing my relationship to break down, or the fact that I won't even date because I've got this issue. They'll go to their GP, build the confidence up, and then they'll get referred to a pelvic floor physiotherapist.

Okay.

Normally it's really scary. It's about 3 to 6 years before they get that referral because of the confidence to even go and seek help.

Oh my God.

Yeah, it's horrendous. They will go and then what will happen is, is the, the pelvic floor physio will do the examination, and if there is biologically nothing untoward there and a referral up to a consultant is not needed, they will signpost to me, and then I will look at the psychosocial element, which then normally is— it's usually like beliefs around sex. There may be some low-level trauma, some, you know, trauma. There's a whole host. There's no rhyme or reason to what could be the barrier. Sometimes for, for women, and we hate to admit it, we've been having sex and we've not really been consenting. We consent verbally. Yeah, but our bodies haven't been consenting.

Yeah, yeah, sure.

You know, so it's— I say to many of my clients, what do you like sexually? And they don't know. So that, that's the journey in itself.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, look, I think a lot of the reason why many older women especially once they reach an age at which they are no longer able to procreate, decide that they don't want to have sex is probably because they've never really enjoyed it in the first place. And so taking it off the table is actually a massive relief. It's just like they've never had a partner who really cares about their pleasure. Yeah, no. And unfortunately, if you've never had that, then it's very difficult to understand what it's like when you have a partner who cares about your pleasure, you know.

Exactly that. It's, it's sex because we feel it's our duty, it's out of obligation, and it just becomes a behavioral pattern that I have to do. You know, I always say sex on Sunday or blowjob Thursday. You know, it, you know, it becomes just routine, like part of, you know, emptying the dishwasher. Um, there is no arousal, no pleasure, and that's why I sort of come up with, um, devising your own sex map. And what I did is I listed different sort of intimacy, um, and sort of sexual activities. Um, and I say intimacy because I'm putting like affection over this side, so something we might not see as sexual. And I get my clients to go through and lit— and just tick off what's, what's enjoyable for them. Yeah. But the other side that I do is I get them to actually put— if they've had a negative experience.

Yeah.

And oh my God, you open up a can of worms, you know. It's like this whole host of, I didn't enjoy this, um, you know, oh, I've got a memory of this person, I've got shame around this. That's the stuff we're working with.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We're letting go of that, and then we find our sexual self. Then we go What do you feel about self-pleasure?

Yeah, yeah, which is probably like, I don't even know what that is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that's, you know, there's a huge amount of shame. We've got religion on top of that and all sorts of cultural beliefs and all sorts of things related to especially women and self-pleasure. Not so much, obviously, men and self-pleasure. I do want to take Dispute with Your Sex on Sunday though, because that is my thing. And I love that. I love the idea of scheduling in sex, frankly, because it's something that I look forward to as my one time where I can just literally just turn my brain off and just enjoy myself and have fun. So for me, scheduling in is part of the being older and having a busy life, but also just recognizing that it's important. Blowjob Thursday— I don't see my partner often enough to do Blowjob Thursday, sadly. I'm sure he would love that, frankly. But, but No, I mean, you know, so, so you are part of— so there's one of you, am I right in saying there's one of you for three areas of the UK? Is that right?

There's lots of me across.

No, no, but you— how many are you? How many people within Norfolk, Suffolk do what you do?

I think I'm the only one in Norfolk.

Okay, good, good to know that you're the only one in Norfolk. And we— I've never heard of— I've never— I mean, now I'm really curious to find out.

There's a— I can send you some websites which you can obviously then share with your community.

That would be brilliant.

But yeah, so it's what, what tends to happen is, is people get like referrals to fair psychotherapists.

Yeah.

Which they then go on like the big, you know, UK counseling directories.

Okay.

So large. What you're looking for is the College of Sex and Relationship Therapists.

Okay.

And then you work through them. So COSRAT. And I'll send you all the links. And basically you just look for people that, you know, we all specialize in different areas. And you find, you know, you're looking for that tag on, yet that resonates, whether it's like, you know, male biomedical, whether it's dealing with the LBG queer community, whether it's, you know, female biomedical, you will find who you need.

And can all of these be people be accessed through the NHS or no?

No. So what you do get is you get low-cost therapy. So you will, you know, you will have some. So even myself, I'm NHS, um, working in partnership with the NHS, but I also then do offer a discounted rate for those on restricted incomes, or, you know, I, I accommodate where you don't have to do it weekly because we all get it, finances are— it's just another pressure, it's a, you know, another barrier to, to participate in. I know lots of other therapists work the same, so, you know, and that would be the avenue to go through, but on, on their profiles, they have all that information. Um, you've got sex and disability therapists, um, you know, they will specialize. Um, you'll look on there, honestly, it's a whole host. It outlines everything, and you can click and work out exactly what you need.

That is super, super fascinating, and I have learned so much that I never knew before, which is great because, you know, that's why I'm doing this, is like there's always something that's still to learn and and it's good to know that the NHS is at least making this stuff available, even if people like me and others only just found out about it. You know, better late than never is what I always say. So Michelle, it has been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. I wish we had more time, but I try and wrap these things up in 30 minutes and we will put all the links so that people, especially in the UK, can find you, especially if they live in Norfolk. But I guess even if they don't live in Norfolk, they can still access you remotely.

Yeah, yeah.

So thanks very much.

Thank you.