Episode 107: Sex as More than a Fast Food Meal

Hi, I'm Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors on this very autumnal in London, sunny but autumnal day. And I'm with someone who's sitting in her car having fractured her hand. I've never actually conducted an interview with anybody in their car, in a car in Toronto. Janice Lee, who runs Heart and Soul Tantra. We haven't spoken about Tantra for a while, so I'd like to welcome you, Janice, to the world of sex advice for seniors.

Thank you. I'm glad to be here. Even though I am a little bit fractured, I am happy to be here today.

So Tantra— so many people, when they think of Tantra, it's such a cliché. I almost don't even want to say it because it's such a cliché, but they always, you know, they always think of Sting and Trudy, or they always think of like, I don't know, something wacky where people just have sex for hours. What's, what's your definition of Tantra?

I think Tantra is a combination of combining spirituality and sexuality together to have a much more intimate experience. To me, it's more about the intimacy. Everybody has sex, and sex has become kind of like a fast food as far as I'm concerned. It's, it's like the burger of sex, and they don't really know anything about intimacy. And I mean, I think the older people that were not brought up on porn will realize that intimacy is important. But the young people today, it's just like, it's like fast food now. Yeah.

Can I ask, how old are you?

I'm 68.

Oh, very— you're not far off my age. So I, I was born up— I was brought up with porn in XXX cinemas, actually. So which I have to say I didn't go to very frequently, but I did go to some of them. And I would say, yeah, that was like fast food sex, right? And, and when you work with couples, are they people that you would say are— would you say that they're kind of like, they come to you because they're already spiritually open? Are they kind of, you know, what I would term sort of woo-woo?

Everybody is different. I find with the couples, I really have to vet them and find out what their take on Tantra is and what they're really wanting. There's couples that have been married for a very long time and just want to kind of open up and maybe get back some of that chemistry that they, you know, has gone on the way— by the wayside. Um, other people, they want to experiment. Um, I think they've, you know, been together for a long time and maybe the sex has gotten blasé, and so they want to open up and, uh, maybe, yeah, just get a little bit more, a little bit more spontaneous, a little bit more kinky. Kinky is not really the word I want to use, but that's the word that came up. Yeah, yeah.

So maybe, uh When we— when you think, yeah, because I don't, I don't necessarily think of kinky when I think of Tantra, just because I always think of kinky as being a little bit more like BDSM or something. And I think of Tantra, I think, and part of the reason why I'm always, I'm always encouraging people to explore just alternative ways of having sex, just generally. And I think that's really what we're talking about, isn't it? It's like, doesn't all have to be about penetrative sex, is— yes, is where is about finding those other erogenous zones on our body and, and having and playing. I always think that's kind of what Tantra's, for me, a little bit more aligned to, is just about being more playful.

Yeah, and that's what it is about. It is about being playful. It's about being in the moment and really getting in touch with your inner emotions and bringing them out to the other person. Yeah.

So you talk about when people have been in long-term relationships and things have got a bit stale. I always want people to give me practical tips. What are some of the practical tips that you would suggest in that kind of circumstance?

In, in a lot of cases, it's all about the end, the end game, like the, the orgasm, the, you know, let— and people have gotten into the point where in a lot of cases it's like, uh, let's get it over as quickly as possible to get to the orgasm. And that isn't really the way sex should be. Sex should be, uh, something that is Slow, slow and thoughtful and really getting into the emotion of being with that other person. And that's what Tantra is about. In Tantra, when I do sessions with, with couples, we do meditation, we do breathwork, we do eye gazing. I get them to look at each other and tell each other 3 things that they love about each other that they may not have ever said. That is amazing. That just like, it just changes the whole atmosphere. Yeah.

And I think, well, we don't often, we don't say enough to the people in our lives that we love, whether they're our partners or not. What we do love about them. And I think that it's always refreshing to hear others reflect back what they like about you, to just, to just remind you that you're loved. I, I want to pull out— so my parents subscribe to the Times newspaper, and this weekend it was this thing that says what the sex therapist wishes all couples knew, right? And some of these things I read and I was like, hmm, interesting. So the one that I want your opinion about is don't schedule a time for sex.

Hmm.

How do you feel about that?

Um, that I'm not so sure about that. I think that something that is scheduled where you plan it, but you plan it well, is what it's all about. Like, become romantic. That's the important thing. You know, have a nice dinner, get dressed up, have some wine first, chocolates with strawberries. Like, it all needs to be planned out and you know, maybe have a bath together. Um, these are the things that really set up, you know, what's, what's, what's going on. Um, sorry, I got somebody that just pulled in beside me and they're yipping. Um, yeah, so just that type of stuff, it's when it's all planned out like that, it can be very, very romantic. And also When you're having the sex, make it slow, slow and meaningful, so it's not rushed. And sometimes when you rush it, when you do the, oh, like, let's just fit something in, it's, it's not the same. It doesn't have that same impact.

Yeah, well, it goes back to that sort of burger analogy, doesn't it?

Yeah.

Which is like, like, there's nothing wrong with a quickie, but it's like having fast food, you know, it's just, it's like a hamburger. It can be satisfying, like a McDonald's from time to time is, can be satisfying, but it's not the same sitting down to a 3-course meal at a Michelin-starred restaurant and having a really fantastic dinner. And, and when I read that thing about don't schedule a time for sex, I always schedule a time for sex because frankly, I don't live with somebody, and I'm with you. I think planning it out, like making sure that you've got plenty of time, not being in a rush— these are the things that create a greater connection between you and your partner.

The other—

the other thing that they said was the happiest couples get aroused together even when they're not going to have sex. And I thought, hmm, I'm, I'm aligned with that one.

I think so too. I think that's wonderful. Like, even sitting, let's say, watching a movie and holding hands, you know, cuddling together, putting your arms around each other, even kissing— like, it doesn't have to lead to sex, but it— that, the touch, the hugging— like, in Tantra, hugging is one of the most important things you do with another person because you feel their hormone— not hormones, they're, they're— you feel their, um, heart. Heart. Okay, let's say heart. There's something else I was thinking of, but I can't remember what it is now. So yeah, so there, when we do, um, a hug, we do heart-to-heart hugs, which connects the, the heart and connects the energy together. So yeah, definitely, it's very important.

And the other one that I also thought was a good one was be connoisseurs of your own arousal. I wondered if this was one of the things that when you're working with singles is something that kind of feeds into your— into the whole Tantra philosophy of really understanding how you become aroused.

Yes, you know what, it's very important to know yourself, uh, before you are in a— before you're in a relationship. It's, it's important to know yourself, how you are turned on sexually. Like, I've, I've been with a— talked to a lot of women that say, well, he should just know.

Exactly.

And I'm like, really? If you don't know, how do you expect him to know? He doesn't even have those body parts. Like, really? Like, I, I find that to be extremely strange when women say that. And the half the guys, they haven't learned, you know, they, they don't really know. And it also takes a little while of learning what that other person likes. But if that person will say and guide and say, hey, this is what I want, this is— turns me on, yes, do that, no, don't do that, a little lighter, a little more gentle— that, you know, as long as the guy wants to take that guidance, or the woman, I, you know, it's not just men, want to take that guidance, then that is very beneficial. Yeah.

And I also think it's, you know, we don't have to consider when we're with someone and we're not enjoying what, what they do, you know, there's ways of expressing that without them feeling rejected, right? So if it's too hard, just, you know, to just say, oh, I just love it. If it was just a little bit slower, a little bit softer, or a little bit faster or harder, you know, whatever it happens to be. I think people get afraid to speak up during sex because they're afraid that they're gonna reject someone. But if you're guiding them and telling them, hey, I really loved it when you did that, oh, that felt so good, that was— I wish you'd just do a little bit more of that, you know, that's, that's what people want to hear. Like, oh, that's what's gonna please you, I'm gonna continue to do that. So I think, I think As you said, it's becoming an understanding, like, what turns us on. I had somebody on a couple of weeks ago, and he was saying, what is your sexual birthright? Talking about, like, what is— what does your authentic sexual self look like? Which I thought was quite something that probably nobody really even thinks about, you know. What, what is, what does it mean to be authentically you in a sexual situation? Like, you know, can you be your kinky self if you want? Can you feel comfortable about going really slow and asking for that? Like, how, how to make that happen? I think it's tough, frankly.

Yeah, a lot of people have been what's— let me see the word I'm trying to use. There has been religion and schools and all kinds of things that have made people not understand that it is their birthright. They've been chastised, they've been ridiculed, they've been told it's, it's dirty and no. And I think more the older people, uh, you know, with all the religious stuff that, that had been going on. That's not so much now, but before, uh, everything was very, very religious. And oh my God, you get pregnant, you know, like all those things. That means you're dirty, you had sex. Oh my God, like all these things that are, are thrown at us. There's a lot of older people that just really don't understand that we were given these bodies by God as a birthright to have sex and enjoy it.

Yeah, yeah. But as you said, especially if you live in North America, right, is that there are certain communities where you probably just don't really stand a chance for most of your life in, in believing that sex is actually a healthy, natural activity and that we should all just be getting on with it. So, you know, I think there's a lot of unwrapping and unwinding to do when it comes to so much of that. And, you know, going back to Tantra, I suspect that there's, you know, there's still a lot of people who think even just the word implies that there's something, you know, it's— this is something that other people do. It's not right. It's not people like me, whoever me happens to be. They— we don't do stuff like that. That's a bit freaky, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's true. That's— I mean, when I tell people I'm a tantra practitioner, you should see the looks I get, especially if I'm, if I'm in like a Zoom meeting, right? Networking, and, you know, everybody's telling what they do, and I'm like, I'm like, oh, well, I'm a Tantra practitioner and a sacred sexuality educator, and they're like looking at me, and I see the looks on their faces like, ugh, deer in the headlights, oh my God.

And do you find that it's that when Do you find that in a couple situation, it's normally one or the other that have led their partner to you and gone, come on, we're going to go and do this?

Yeah, that happens in a lot of the cases. And sometimes it's funny because sometimes it'll be the women and I'll get a call from them and we'll talk about it and she says, okay, You know, let— this sounds really good. Let me talk to my husband. And then I never hear from them again.

Yeah. I mean, it's difficult to break those kind of— yeah, the prejudice that exists around so much of this, I think, because there's just not enough education. I mean, part of the thing that I— and, you know, and also what I've discovered since doing this, you're my like 105th or 106th interview, something like that, right? So I've spoken to a huge number of people. And of course, when it comes to all of this stuff that's not mainstream, whether it's tantra or BDSM, other forms of kink, some of it can sound really quite extreme. So, and it can feel quite alienating. That's I feel that sometimes myself. I was, I was talking to somebody about this recently, and I was saying, you know, there's a certain level sometimes in some of the conversations that I have, where I'm engaging in orgasm one-upmanship, as I call it, is it's not enough just to be able to have a clitoral one. I've got to be able to experience 4 other kinds that frankly, I don't even believe exist. But anyway, that's Scientific evidence to prove there's just one, but other people dispute it. That's fine. I'm okay with that. But, you know, sometimes I feel like I'm not good enough. I'm not— I haven't experienced this thing and therefore I must not be doing it properly. I'm not good enough. So I think also there's a way— there's— there is some exclusivity sometimes that ends up being associated with with some of these communities where people might feel it's not maybe right for me, you know, it's not, it's not, maybe I'm too kind of vanilla for this sort of thing. How do you overcome that?

Well, I don't think that Tantra itself, I think once they understand what Tantra is, they realize that You can be vanilla and, and, you know, enjoy Tantra because again, it's about intimacy. A lot of people do have this weird concept that it is something very strange. And yeah, you know, like, oh, like I have orgies, you know, like every day with thousands of people. It's like these crazy things that they think of. But it— once they understand that it's more of a spiritual inner awakening, not just sexual, I— they, they change their minds. They realize that it's something that we lack intimacy in this world right now. We lack it badly. So intimacy, which is a big part of Tantra, is what's— is what they're lacking, what they really do need.

Yeah, yeah. And I forgot to ask you, because normally it's my first question, not, not one of my last, was how did you get into all of this stuff?

You know, it started— what happened was I was in an 8-year relationship, and that 8-year relationship ended around the time of, uh, online dating. And so at first I was excited about online dating. I thought, oh boy, you know, this is exciting, all these different people I'm gonna be meeting, and, you know, I'm gonna find the love of my life, it's gonna be wonderful. And then I started online dating and I realized it was not that. It was anything but that. And I found it very strange that within the first, like, 10 words, a guy would be going straight for the sexual shit. And I'm like, uh, what is going on here? And it was like every single one. It wasn't like it was like, oh, there is, you know, problems. And, and then I'd be getting dick pics, and I'd be going like, what on earth is going on here? This is not what I signed up for. It's crazy. And I really— and I, I stopped online dating. I just didn't want to do that. And I kind of went into myself and kind of tried to figure out what it was that I wanted and what I was looking for. So I started going to women's groups, and some of them were Tantra. And so learning from the women's groups, the Tantra part of it, I said, yes, this is what I'm looking for. I want intimacy. I don't want to be somebody's blow-up doll. And, and that's what I felt like I was when I was doing Um, the online dating. I was— I, I actually wrote a blog called, um, I Should Have Been Born a Blowup Doll.

Yeah, what— I'm curious, what year did you start online dating?

Um, let's see, it was about— I think I've been out of that relationship for about 13 years, so it was around 13 years ago.

Okay, so 2010, around then, something like that. Yeah, yeah. Because I started at the early '90s, like late '90s, right? And it was a completely different landscape back then because there were so few people doing it. It was a bit— it wasn't like the Wild West like it is now. It was like a highly selective group of people that were all quite curious about this machine that now gave us access to people in different parts of the world. And of course then we didn't have video streaming or any of that. That stuff because we didn't have the bandwidth, literally. So, you know, a picture used to take 2 days to be able to download, and as a result of that, you had to rely on words. So, you know, if for me, if you weren't articulate and you couldn't put a sentence together, like, you didn't really— I didn't even— because I didn't know what you look like anyway. So I kind of— I always fell in love with the the people who could write really well.

Yeah.

Because they were the people that were able to express themselves. And anyone— I didn't even meet people back then who were like going— well, I did actually. I'll tell one very quick funny story. I was on a website with a chat room and it was very sophisticated site based in New York. And everybody was trying to be very clever and they all were very clever, frankly. And somebody walked into the virtual room, and they put something like, does anybody want to fuck around here? And somebody wrote in the chat room, they went, go back to Yahoo Chat where you came from.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, because there were like, there were, there were different— the chat rooms themselves attracted very different kinds of people. And Yahoo was where the people who couldn't spell it right went. And the ones, and then the ones that were on ours, our one the really funny, clever ones that you just wanted to— you just want to meet everybody, all the women and the men, because they were funny. But yeah, I mean, I can appreciate when it, when it finally, you know, when, when internet dating kind of then blew up around that period of time, actually, and everybody seemed to be piling in, that's when it became a very difficult and not very attractive landscape. And I think a lot of people at that point were like, There's got to be something better than this.

That's exactly what I said. There's got to be something better than this. Like, I felt so used.

Yeah. And did you meet somebody through the Tantra community, or is there a happy ending to this story, Janice?

Well, okay, so I had— I did meet somebody. Unfortunately, he had to move away, far away, and I have, you know, my granddaughter, so it wasn't something that I could do. But I met through Tantra a very lovely, lovely man who is genuine and sweet and kind, and I really kind of understood what it was like to meet somebody like that, um, into their, um healthy masculinity. And we still talk. It's been 2 years since, since I've seen him, and we still talk, you know, not a real lot right now. But yeah, I— it really gave me hope. It gave me hope that there are real genuine sweet, kind, gentle, loving men out there. And I'm still looking for him, but I'm not giving up and I will not settle. I will not settle for those stupid dudes. You want a book?

Well, you know, look, there's no reason why anybody should be settling, really. Both men and women, right? I mean, it's just— I think, you know, we've reached a place where there is some— there seems to be a disparity between what a lot of women are looking for and what men are seeking in some way. And that's revealed through all the dick pics and stuff that you get. You just think, I don't quite, I don't quite understand here why you think I would just want to go out with a penis. But you know, okay, you know, it just doesn't make any sense really, but they still keep sending them. Yeah, I got a weird message yesterday from somebody that I didn't recognize, and then I scrolled up and there was, there was one of those that I hadn't bothered to delete. And I was like, I still don't have a clue who you are, by the way. Yeah, I do not have a clue. But anyway, I mean, you know, I think the thing about— as you've said, the thing about Tantra is that it opens up the way to genuine intimacy. And once you've— once you've experienced real intimacy, it doesn't— you don't have to be in love with— the thing I've always said about Tantra is that you don't have to actually be in love with that person to have, to have great sex. You just happen to be open to the idea of genuine intimacy, which is, which is just about liking someone and wanting to connect with them in a real authentic and genuine way. Yeah, you know, and that should be the goal of anybody that's having sex, really, because otherwise It's just a hamburger.

It's just a hamburger. There's a teacher, and I'm sorry, at this point in time I'm forgetting her name. She's a tantra teacher, and what she said made a lot of sense to me. And she said, when you're flying a plane, you can fly in economy or you can fly in first class. 'Once you've had the ability to fly first class, you do not want to go back to economy.' And then she says, 'And that is what Tantra is about.' And I'm like, 'Damn right, girl.' Oh, Janice, it's been so lovely to talk to you.

I hope your hound recovers really quickly. Uh, you're not in too much pain, and Like usual, I will post all your social media handles and all that kind of stuff. And have a really great day.

Okay, you too. It was wonderful talking to you.