Episode 111: Opening up your Relationships

I'm very excited to welcome our new sponsor, Higher Nature, who have created Rekindle, which I'm currently trying out and is working a treat. A 100% natural libido-enhancing supplement for women which contains clinically backed ingredients to give your sex life a boost. And who doesn't want that? Hi, this is Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. Welcome to Sex Advice for Seniors. This week I am speaking to somebody that actually trains other people to be sexologists. I said she's a train-the-trainer person coming to us all the way from Colorado. Welcome, Indigo Stray Conger. What a great name you've got.

I have to say, thank you.

I know that it looks like you work with your partner as well, because I noticed that your surnames are similar, or is he your brother?

Yeah, I share a private practice with my husband, and I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and then I'm also an AASECT-certified sex therapist, and I'm a supervisor for other sex therapists.

Brilliant. So today we thought we'd talk about a topic that I suspect lots of people in, in long-term relationships that might have gone a bit stale might be considering, and that's how do you open up your relationship? In a kind way, in a kind way, because I know lots of people who just cheat. And yeah, I'm just— yeah, I've never been a big fan of cheating, actually. I just don't really see the point.

But I don't know many people who are.

No. Well, I have done that, and it wasn't— I'm not good at it. So let's talk about the way that I also think is quite challenging, which is, which is opening up relationships. But I think What do we mean when we talk about that? Or what do you mean? Mm-hmm.

Suzanne Noble specializes in working with ethical non-monogamy, which can mean a lot of different things. And so what my passion is, is helping people figure out what it means to them and how they can do that in an ethical and, as you said, kind way. So for folks who are over 50, that often means that they've been in a relationship for most of their adult lives, maybe all of their adult lives. Sometimes they've never had other sexual partners or romantic partners, or if they did, they were very young and didn't know themselves very well. So when I work with clients, we're figuring out what is it that you are longing for? What are you ready to do in opening up your relationship? And sometimes that's both partners, and sometimes one partner really doesn't have a whole lot of interest in it for various reasons, but they're supportive of their partner being able to explore either sexually or sexually and romantically.

And I mean, I think that, you know, the word gets thrown around a lot on some of the new apps like Field, you know, E&M. But for me, I think there's a, there's a, there's a massive spectrum when it comes to what that means. It could mean, for instance, having sex in the same room as another couple, right? Or it could mean, as you said, getting romantically involved with another person. And actually falling in love with them and, you know, having essentially a second significant partner. So I think, you know, it's always confusing to, to understand the, the range of opportunities there are, which range from somewhat scary to could be incredibly scary, threatening. You know, what are some of the scenarios that you've seen in the people with the people that you've worked with?

Yeah, and what's important is that you're on the same page about that, right? So sometimes a partner will ask their partner to open up, and if you're not really explicit what you're talking about on that spectrum, you might be in for a big surprise when you're already in it. So the two ends of the spectrum are really lifestyle and swinging, which is sexual only, and oftentimes couples will agree that they are only swinging together, and that can mean a number of different things. It can mean that they only play together with another couple, or they only play together when they go to sex parties or events, or it may mean that they play separately, but they keep it within the realm of sex. There's no romantic attachment. Uh, the other end of the spectrum, I would say, is polyamory, and that can look a lot of different ways as well. It might mean that you have someone that both of you are romantically involved with. It might mean that each of you is dating and seeking a partner that you're romantically involved with. It could be that you're living with someone else and really integrating them in your life. So there's really a whole wide range of what it can end up looking like. Uh, where I find that people tend to have the most problems is, like I said, if they're not on the same page. And the second place that I see the most problems is that when people agree they only want to open up sexually, but people are people and emotions can appear. And so oftentimes emotions get involved and that can cause a lot of pain if it wasn't within the original agreements that people set forth for each other.

Yeah, and I think the other thing is that's what's always clear to me with people that try to do this, and the ones who do it most successfully I'm aware of, is that you have to be an incredibly communicative person.

Yes, yes, if you haven't communicated before, this is the crash course in doing it, and that's why it can be helpful to work with a coach or a therapist who's very experienced in ethical non-monogamy to help you ask the right questions and have the right conversations with each other.

Yeah, like, give me a couple of questions, just a couple of questions that you should be asking in these situations. Can you think of one?

Sure. Well, some really basic ones are, what are our— let's say that you are talking about opening up only sexually, which on its face is a little bit simpler. Again, what does that mean, opening up sexually? What kind of sexual activities is acceptable? Is it acceptable to have sexual activities happen without each other present? What are the expectations around STI safety and conversations around STI safety. And so those are some really basic ones that hopefully people think of ahead of time, but oftentimes they don't if they've been in one relationship their whole lives and have never thought of these things.

Yeah, yeah. And then I think, you know, the other thing that's, that's, that can happen, of course, is that for people on the other end of the spectrum, for the polyamory people, is that the other person. Often, you know, you go into these things, I think, often for a sense of adventure or just looking for new experiences and thinking, let's just see where this goes. And as you said, we're people, so feelings get involved. And it's not always the primary partner or the, you know, the primary relationship where there's feelings. There's also this other person potentially who's now experiencing feelings and is sitting now outside of potentially, you know, your main relationship. And that in itself has a lot of negotiating around it. And I know from friends of mine that have gotten into that situation that there can be a huge amount of, of negotiating with how do you navigate those feelings with that new person who perhaps wants more from the relationship than you are able to give because, you know, you're, you've sort of got this primary relationship and maybe that's your you know, your main one. So I think that's, you know, for me, that's always, that's why I don't do it.

Yeah, it gets complicated. And you're correct that, and for a long time, that wasn't really part of the conversation. And about 15, 20 years ago now, I'm not sure when, the Secondary Bill of Rights came out, which was really bringing up a whole lot of those issues. So if you're a person who's dating a couple, say, and let's keep it simple and say you're dating both people in the couple, they may have already decided, well, we only have time to see you on Tuesday nights. And we're only going to do these sexual activities, and we have a rule that you can never go on vacation with us or say I love you. And so you've already got all these constrictions put on you, but you're a person who has your own feelings and who should really have your own voice in the relationship. And that gets a whole lot more complicated if you start talking about people who are dating separately, right? So if a couple agrees that they are dating separately and they're dating romantically, one person may not be having a whole lot of luck on field. They're not really getting any hits or they're not really going on any dates that are meaningful. The other person is falling in love, they have a girlfriend, and they want to really step up that level with the girlfriend, and that other partner, that first partner, can feel really left behind in that because the paces are not necessarily going to be parallel.

Yeah, and I know someone who is in exactly that situation because often, unsurprisingly, it's the woman who often is the leader. No, you know, not always, but I do think that often it's the woman who, when, um, if you're trying to you know, be more expansive in your, in your, in your sex life, it's the one who gets most of the attention often. So they're the ones that when they go on the websites, lots of guys are hitting on them, or they're meeting other women who want to explore their bisexuality. And so, you know, it's often the guy who's the one who's sitting around twiddling his winky and thinking, oh, she seems to be having a really good time, and I'm getting absolutely nothing. So I think also there's that imbalance that can often occur when you're not doing this thing together. I tend to, at the moment, quite like to do things together because I just find it just makes life really easy. It's like everybody can see what's going on. You can have, you know, you can negotiate as it's happening, like, oh no, I don't really wanna do that. Or no, I don't, you know, I've been in that situation where I've asked somebody like, can I do this? And they go, no. And you just say, like, fine, okay, fine. Like, it's— that's okay.

You know, and that's often why if you're on one end of the spectrum and you're more in lifestyle or swinging capacity, that oftentimes those are the rules. So no one feels left behind. And I've seen it happen where a couple's really happy in the lifestyle scene, and then they break up. And particularly for the guy, they're no longer really welcome in the lifestyle scene, because they're only welcome if they have a beautiful partner with them. And so if they've been in been in the lifestyle scene for sometimes a decade, that can feel like a huge crushing shift for them to lose their friendships, to lose their social context. And then they can be in a really big hurry to find another woman that they can bring with them to continue participating in their social world.

Yeah, for sure. And I think that's one of the things that I've always thought about swinging is that it's quite a sexist community, just generally. I've done it on and off for a very long period of time. And what I and I, and I don't do as much as I used to. And that's partly because I find it slightly homophobic, if I'm really honest. And it can be quite set up for the, for the woman. So the woman gets what she, you know, the woman gets lots of men, or the woman gets to have her bisexual experience, or the woman gets this. But if you're a single guy on the scene, it's very, very difficult. It's not, it's not the same. And you're not really going to clubs, swinging clubs, to meet other men to have those experiences. And my general feeling about that world is that it's, you know, it's great if you're a couple. Even as a single woman, I've, I've done a lot of that as a single woman, and even that is not that fun either, because it's a real couple-y kind of thing, which is why I always think if that's your first toe that you're dipping in the water, that might be the, the easiest toe to dip in, rather than to exit and go, oh, I'm gonna check this out. I don't know if that's your, you know, if that's your—

it is very set up for primarily cishet couples. It is a world that surrounds that. And oftentimes people do start there because they believe they can set up rules or expectations that are rigid that protect them. They say, we're not going to develop any emotions, we're only going to play together, we're only going to play at these places, we're only going to play with another couple. And At first, sometimes that can work out, but oftentimes you start to run into issues in that rigid structure. And there is a dark side to that structure too, that while in some ways it's set up for, for women to have their cake and eat it too and have a lot of fun, women are also quite frequently very objectified in that scene as well. So that's why the worlds often don't mix very well, that folks who are more in the poly world really cringe at a lot of the cishet normativity, the objectification, the hyperfocus on the beauty beauty of bodies and sex versus really appreciating the whole person and being more queer and LGBTQIA friendly.

Yeah, definitely. And yeah, although I've been to places where they do, they do crossover. And it's quite clear when people are more in the, you know, in the queer LGBTQ space, more in the polyamory space with the swingers, it's a, it's a bit of a culture clash. Can be quite funny.

Yeah, and in Colorado, we've really seen a shift over the last decade, I would say, in the kink community, and there is often a crossover between the kink community and the non-monogamous community, that a lot of the kink play spaces have become much more welcoming to queer folks and to the LGBTQIA spectrum. So that's where you really see a crossover of these worlds mixing in different variations at different times. And it's wonderful to see the world become more welcoming, but sometimes there is, um, you know, just a clash of different communities there.

Yeah. And interestingly enough, I think, you know, one of the things about opening up your relationship, and I spoke to— I was on the podcast of a couple who do a podcast called The Open Nesters. And one of the reasons why they have had an open relationship for a long period of time is just because they've got quite different interests when it comes to some of the ways that they just like, just enjoy life. And it's not even generally always sexual, right? It can be— in, in, in their case, one of the couple wanted to explore BDSM more, so wanted to get more into that kind of power dynamics and roleplay and, and doing that and exploring that. And his partner, not really that interested. And she really loves like being naked in nature and going wandering in nature and just walking through the woods naked. And He didn't want to do that, you know, and, and she was not threatened by, and nor was he threatened by those, by their individual activities that they did with other people, because they recognize that they experienced joy in those places with that person. And, and that was, they love seeing their partner experiencing joy and being happy. They were like, great, it's, I don't have to walk naked in the woods. And she was like, I don't have to get spanked.

Yeah, a lot of times couples can feel unhappy, or at least not completely fulfilled for a long time in their sex life thinking, I need to get all my fulfillment from this one person. And that can go on for decades, right, with both people feeling like I really need to convince my partner to understand these deep longings. And so if you can get to a place where you realize I can appreciate that in you, I can love that in you and also not want to participate in that, and we can both go off and have our separate explorations of these deep aspects of who we are.

So I think that one of the biggest challenges of being an older person is I dip in and out of Field, the, the app. For those of you who don't know, Field is an app for people who want to explore alternative lifestyles and just generally potentially be ethically non-monogamous or heteroflexible or pansexual or whatever other word. They've— the glossary is about 5 gazillion words long. But, but one thing I've noticed is there's not a lot of older people there. There's just—

yeah, it's unfortunate that that's true for apps in general, and even for Fields, right? And it's true for a lot of sex party venues as well, that it's not any different than the rest of our culture in general, right? That it's, it's really not supporting sexuality past 50, which is unfortunate because that's a wonderful time to be exploring your sexuality and knowing who you truly are. I find that people tend to need to get into a bit of the underground world to find it here, that in Colorado anyway, we have a really robust ethically non-monogamous community across the whole spectrum, and a very large kink community as well. But the best of it is found underground, and young people did not invent these things. So there are some really deep roots there for folks who've been in those communities for a long time, but they're private invite only. It's, you know, meeting people's friends privately. They're just not on the apps as much.

Yeah. And, and those kind of, I mean, going to, we, you know, we, I was talking with some people recently about London and there's not a lot happening here actually, from what I can see. There's some BDSM stuff that's going on, but it's not, it's not humongous. And funnily enough, I don't know if it's true in Colorado, but the BDSM community in London is quite old. There's a lot of people that have been in it since the very beginning, you know, since like the '70s and '80s, and, and they've come up through it, and they just still, it's very much a part of their social life, So even if they're not like full on in it anymore, because they've— their social circle was so crucial, you know, was formulated during a time where they were really involved in it. It's— I find there's quite a lot of people in their 60s and even 70s that are in it. So that I don't have so much of a problem with because London has got a big history of fetish. Just, you know, we were, we were some of the earliest people into the kind of fetish scene. So that's been going for a long, long time. And I was— even when I was in my 20s, I was going to parties where people were wearing rubber and stuff like that. So I've, I've seen all of that. But when we're talking about like polyamory, when we're talking about ethical non-monogamy, when we're talking about kind of the broader spectrum of kink, no, I'd say that's much harder to find. And I'd say just generally, The, even this, the swinging scene is, it also is quite a bit older here, but, but not very interesting. To my mind, it's not, it's not all that interesting. And I think to find, we used to have about 20 years ago, 15 years ago, we used to have some really fun kink events that were really, they were underground, but they were fun. They were they were playful, they had a kind of Burning Man spirit to them. But we don't really— a lot of that, I maybe I just am not invited anymore. I just don't seem to really find it anymore like, like I used to. So I do think, I guess, some of the places where you might still be able to find is maybe FetLife.

Yeah, FetLife is a great place to find at least the BDSM and kink community for sure. And a lot of people people have been on there a long time. But again, it just depends what demographic you're in and what you're looking for. And in some areas, it's a bit of a wasteland. I find that people here, once they're in the community, tend to be on Discord channels with people that they already know, and they have these deep-rooted communities. Whereas FetLife, you know, you don't really know what you're getting. You don't necessarily know if people are even really being honest in their profile, who they are, what they're doing. So it can be a bit hit or miss. There's some great events that are posted on there. There is still communities across the age range, but sometimes it's, it's, it's not what you're really looking for.

No, and I think, you know, that's the biggest problem that I find is that people, you know, sometimes I've had conversations about all different kinds of lifestyles, and it's mainly, it's a lot of the men who say to me, where, it's all fine, Suzanne Noble, you talking about all this stuff, but where do I actually go and find it? Like, how do I find these people? It's really, like you said, it's kind of underground, is word of mouth, you get to know about it. It's not actually that easy. And I suspect it's, if you're a guy, a single guy, it's harder. And maybe, you know, I was in, I was in San Francisco recently, in the Napa Valley, and I just was looking around and what I found, just because I wanted to see, I thought, oh, you know, there's got to be some kinky stuff going on in San Francisco. So, and I found that there were some meetup groups for like Shibari, which is, you know, for people who don't know, it's like a Japanese rope bondage, which I thought, oh, that's like, you know, visual workshops where you go and learn Shibari. So I thought, maybe, you know, some of the entry points, if you like, for these sorts of communities is finding workshops like kink workshops or, you know, specific work, tantra workshops, you, you can actually find this stuff on Eventbrite. Or on Meetup. And, you know, I guess if you Google, you can find some stuff that's out there. Because otherwise, it's not, it's not that easy.

Yeah, we're lucky that we have a lot here in Colorado, but you do still have to know where to look. We have about 6 or 7 big meetup groups, which range between 200 and 2,000 people for ethical non-monogamy in different areas. In terms of shibari, we have a great studio, Studio Friction, that does shibari and kink events. It does tend to draw a younger and more queer-friendly crowd. And then there are some other rope courses and rope studios in the area that are smaller that tend to connect with the older kink community. So again, these rivulets kind of run over each other of the older communities, the younger communities, sometimes they blend well together, and sometimes there is a culture clash of the older and younger groups. Like you said, I think it is hardest as an older guy in particular, if you have not already been in those communities, to connect to those communities.

Yeah, and I met a guy who was 78 a few weeks ago, and really, you know, had a very sheltered upbringing and very little sexual experience really, and was now looking at, at exploring and started going to some intimacy workshops with his partner. So I think there there are steps that you can take when you want to, when you want to start developing or exploring or opening up, that can be those sort of first steps without the big scary step, like, oh, let's, let's go and find somebody else, you know, let's just, let's just see what's out there.

And being willing to go to workshops can be excellent because there's a much clearer container around consent. We have the Pleasure Temple here that has meetups once a week that are tantric based, and those are less about finding partners and just playing. They're about being able to have a tantric practice in your body, be touched by other people, do self-practice. And so it's not going to get you into the world where you're going to have a girlfriend, but it can get you much more comfortable with being naked in a public space, starting to understand what kind of joy these practices can bring, being accepted for who you are, whatever age and body.

Yeah, it sounds like Colorado's got a really big scene.

You know, we really do. I grew up here, and then when I moved to New York City, I figured, well, New York New York City is going to be times 10 with kink and non-monogamy. And it does have a big, pretty big community now. But when I moved there in the late '90s, I was actually disappointed. I was like, I want to go back to Colorado. We have more going on there.

I know I went to New York in the, in the, in the, well, actually was in the early 2000s. And there was quite a fun scene back then of like kinky bloggers and just the beginning of the sort of sex blogger time. And there was some, and there was some fun stuff going on there. But, and I did go to some parties as well, and like apartments and things, and that was really fun. And I went to some kinky clubs and things. But you're right. I mean, I, I always think when I go to New York, you know, it's got to all be kicking off here. But actually, I think it's pretty staid. It's not. It seems like a lot of the activity is going on in some of the smaller cities in the States. There's, you know, stuff. Yeah, I'm, I'm—

in New York, there's always— it is very underground, right? Like, you have to know. And so there's a lot of worlds on top of worlds there, and you have to find your way in, versus I think in some of the smaller cities that are still big enough to have robust communities, like Denver, where I am, there's more public things, there's more things posted on Meetup and FetLife. We have Scarlet Ranch, which has been a lifestyle play space for decades, you know, that you can— you literally can Google and find something, whereas in New York, I think you got to know a little more.

Yeah, definitely. And what would your advice be as a, you know, how do you open up the conversation? Because I think that's the other biggest challenge is if you've never had a chat before and you said it yourself, you're like, sometimes these people have had this pent-up longing for so such a, you know, a long period of time. And this is the million-dollar question, really, isn't it? It's like, how do you start?

Yeah, so if it's one partner that's been wanting to bring this up with their, their person, their spouse, their whoever it is for a long time, I think it's important to remember you've been thinking about this for maybe a decade, but this might be really shocking for your partner. And so take it slow, give it time, make sure you're starting the conversation by talking about everything that works, everything you love, everything you want to keep. You know, if you love the sex you have, but you're looking to explore a little kink, make sure you lead with that. I love the sex we have. I love that we've had adventures together for 30 years. And then speak from a vulnerable and emotion-based place, right? I've been struggling and nervous to bring this up with you. I really don't want to put our relationship at risk or to hurt you. But I just keep thinking about this activity or this thing that I felt like I've missed out on. Would you be willing to just consider the idea that we could maybe find a way to explore this or I could explore this and then leave that there for a bit, right? Let your partner marinate, come back to it, be vulnerable, answer their questions, sit in their fears before you push forward. And then before you do anything, even if your partner has said, yes, okay, I might be all right with this. Don't just jump right in because you're so excited that you finally got this off your chest. You know, like I said, find a coach or a sex therapist, or at the very least find some other experienced folks and have some conversations about what you really want this to look like. Um, oftentimes I have clients come to me and they didn't go slow. And so we're more doing some cleanup, um, figuring out how to heal some trust ruptures. And it's much harder to start from that place than to start from a place where you're going slow to begin with.

Yeah, that is incredibly, incredibly good advice from someone who clearly knows and has seen this, because I suspect lots of people, as soon as they hear the green light, just go Yes. Yeah. And go running off and trying to find what they want and then it all comes crashing down on them. So yeah, I think we'll leave it at that because it's such a good, that's such a good way to end it in just that go slow, be thoughtful, be kind. And you know, for me, I always think it's never too late to bring up these conversations. Ever, you know.

Absolutely. I work with couples all the time who are in their older years, and they're so happy that they finally brought this up. They're able to nourish this part of themselves that may have been neglected while they were raising children and having careers, and now they have a little more space and time and energy to nurture their sexual selves.

And that is a wonderful, wonderful thing.

Yeah!

Thank you—

Thanks Suzanne, thanks for having me! Mm-hmm...