Episode 116: Navigating Love and Self Discovery

Suzanne Noble: I'm very excited to welcome our new sponsor, Higher Nature, who have created Rekindle, which I'm currently trying out and is working a treat. A 100% natural libido-enhancing supplement for women, which contains clinically backed ingredients to give your sex life a boost. And who doesn't want that? Hi, this is Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. And every once in a while, I decide I'm going to record an extra episode. Usually I do one a week, but every once in a while I'm like, no, no, no, I gotta, I gotta do two because somebody comes along that I'm like, nope, I'm, I gotta speak to this person. I'm gonna cram my schedule full of recordings because I gotta get this one in. And this woman is one that I've been following myself on TikTok. And we're almost, I'm not quite as popular as you, but I'm getting there now. And her TikTok is called Hope with Holly. And I don't really follow too many people that give advice, if I'm really honest. I don't really look at what other people are doing. I just kind of get on with my own shit. But I do look at what you're doing.

Oh, that's good. You should just listen to the voice in you. It's your truth. So I love that.

Yeah, yeah. But I listen to you because I'm like, yeah, right on. Yep, yep. She's absolutely right. Of course, I never take your advice, Holly, but you don't have to.

And that's the thing, I'm not self-righteous about my advice. My advice for my dating life has been specifically for the shit show that I experienced before and the goal that I have to go to. So, you know, I grew up in a Christian cult. I was married at 21 because a prophet in my church told me that's who I had to marry. I was married for 20 years, um, and I had to do a lot of deconstructing from Yeah, yeah, my religion, from the patriarchy, got divorced, jumped right into the dating scene and was blown away by the dumpster fire that men were not gentlemen. The dating apps was just a hookup app, I realized. And unfortunately, I tried to be a hoe and I couldn't be a hoe. I told all of my friends, look, I'm gonna go taste the rainbow because I'm not sure if you know this, Suzanne Noble, but I didn't have sex with my husband until our wedding night.

Oh my god.

Like, I didn't even know. I had never even masturbated.

Wow.

Because I grew up in this cult, we were told to not touch ourselves and to be chaste, pure women. And, and I thought that that was the best thing I could do. And so I, I didn't even know. And I found this, Matt, after I got married and I realized, oh, hmm, this is not what I thought sex was going to be. Yeah, I found this magazine. I don't know if it was Better Homes and Gardens or something like that. And in the very back— now we're talking 1999, okay— in the very back, there was a little thing that you could fill out if you wanted to purchase a VHS tape on how to have a better sex life. Oh, so I wrote a check and I sent it in and I got it back in the mail and I watched this VHS tape and she taught me how to masturbate and what sex was like and what an orgasm was. And I was blown away. And honestly, I became a monster for my husband.

Yeah.

Um, He did not have the sex drive that I had. Yeah, he was good with once a month.

Oh wow.

At 21, I wanted it 3 times a day. Yeah, yeah, you know, and that's what I thought. I thought, well, we'll have sex in the morning and he'll come home for lunch and we'll have sex then, and then we'll have sex before bed. Great, I love orgasms, you know.

What's not to like about orgasms, Holly?

Right. I love them. And so that was not the case. And so it was a big struggle for 20 years. It wasn't until I was 35 years old that I realized, in talking to all of my girlfriends, because before that I did not talk about it, being a Christian woman, that they were telling me that they had an orgasm every time they had sex.

Yeah, yeah.

And I was like, what? What? I thought we get an orgasm maybe once every 10 or 12 times. And they were like, oh no, girl, if he gets his, you get yours. And I went and told my husband that, and he was like, oh my God, you're too much work.

Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah.

I was like, oh, wow.

But you did it. You stuck with that marriage even after he said that to you.

Yes, honey, because I had 4 children in 3 years and they were all babies.

Yeah.

And I just did not— I wanted to raise my kids.

Yeah.

He traveled all the time for work. He was always gone. So, you know, I just stayed and raised my kids until they were old enough where I could work.

Yeah. Yeah.

And they could stay home by themselves. Then I read Regina Thomas-Schauer, I think is her last name, book Pussy.

Yeah.

Let me tell you, she taught me, I don't know if this is what you all want to talk about, but she taught me that I could have orgasms for an hour straight.

Yeah.

And I got me a little clit sucker, a Womanizer. And a saddle. And I was like, let this be a lesson. Class is in session. And I will challenge myself to see if I could have orgasms for an hour straight.

Yeah, amazing.

It was so much fun.

Yeah, because, you know, my, my history was, of course, the complete counterpoint to this. Mine was Jewish open household, like my parents were not— they're conservative, but sex was never something that was— I was to be ashamed about. And, you know, I discovered the showerhead at 10 and never really looked back from that. So lucky. Yeah. And, you know, my mother had like a little vibrator in her, a little plastic vibrator in her drawer that I found, along with some National Geographic, which showed me what the male anatomy looked like, which was useful. You know, and I was a complete slut in my 20s and lost count of the number of people I slept with. And but, but the really interesting thing about what you said is that when I was in 2003 or something, there was a, there was an American company called Better Sex that made VHS videos about how to have good sex. And we had something here called the Lover's Guide. Which was a huge seller about how to make love and how to have sex with your partner. And I decided with— I had quite a lot of money at the time. I decided that I was going to make a better version of that, which I did, called Modern Loving, as a producer, and pumped a shitload of money into it. And I think the same company that you're talking about, that you bought that VHS from, They eventually distributed my video in America, and I made some money off that.

How did you— maybe I watched you.

Not me. I was not in it, although I did have sex with one of the actors in it, which is another story completely in itself.

Totally.

Yeah. He couldn't get it up with the actress he was with, so he just looked at me while he was having sex with her to try and get him off, which was— and then eventually we did our own little thing for Not very often because he had some, he had some issues that didn't really gel with mine. But anyway, but anyway, that's, there's probably in that story, I'm just thinking she probably watched better sex videos. But yeah, I mean, fast forward, you got divorced and then you're doing the dating apps and that's where a lot of people that obviously listen to this are at, right?

Yes.

In the dumpster fire, as you call them, that, that, that is dating apps. And I, and I do still kick around in that world. And I'm, you know, I'm, I'm not really looking for something serious. So my, my approach to them is quite significantly different than people looking for relationships. Because to be honest, if you're just happy to just have intimate moments with people from time to time, I don't have a problem with them too much.

Absolutely. And the dating apps, if— and this is what I tell women, Look, no judgment here. I went out and tried to be a whore. Turns out, I am handicapped by being monoamorous and sapiosexual. So, the moment an unintelligent man opens his mouth, my vagina dries up. The moment he can't have any kind of emotional intelligence, my vagina just goes to a desert. So, I am handicapped in that way. Um, so I realized, okay, if you want to just go out and have situationships and hookup sex and casual sex, more power to you. No judgment here whatsoever. Yeah, yeah. So my platform is for the women who, uh, are handicapped like me, and they they really are my, I would say monogamous whores. Yeah, people who love sex, but really just with one person. Yeah, yeah. And that is, that's a different flavor. And so I teach women how I did it. How did I— it took me a year of celibacy, though, I gotta tell you that, that sucked ass.

Wow, seriously, is that just because you wanted to? What was that about for you?

Well, first of all, I felt like I was a little bit of a desperate bitch. I was a pick-me girl, and I was using sex to gain approval from men, you know, you know the old saying, men give love to get sex and women give sex to get love. And I was using sex to get them to love me. So that's unfortunate. I also am a recovering dopamine addict. So I needed to detox a little bit.

Yeah, yeah.

But I also wanted to find a man who really liked me more than just sex. I needed to find a man that I could have an intelligent conversation with. Yeah, and emotionally intelligent conversations as well. Those get me going. Okay, that is my aphrodisiac. Yeah, so, uh, so I had a dating coach reach out to me on my platform and offer me for her free services, and I was like, well, okay, what I've been doing hasn't been working, so maybe she can help. And she did. Yeah, I read her book. Her name's Chantal Hyde. She is from Canada. She has this book called No More Assholes. Yeah, um, it's on Amazon. But she and I had many lessons on her YouTube channel. You can go and watch all my horrible lessons of my naivety. Um, but I took her approach. Her approach was no kissing, sex, sleepovers, or exclusivity for the first 3 months.

Wow.

Let me— yeah, that's exactly what I said. I was sad. I had to grieve. I was in shock. I was like, okay, I mean, I will try anything. Yeah, but that's gonna be fucking hard.

Yeah, but also for me, I mean, like, you know, yeah, you can— I've— I can have sex with people that I'm not intellectually— like, we're not on the same level at all. But, but they can just amuse me or, or make me laugh or do other stuff. I can't have— my main thing is you got to make me laugh. If you can't make me laugh, then that's really hard for me. Like, laughing is my aphrodisiac. Like, I can have— I can look at somebody as long as they make me smile and laugh. That's good. But if they can't do that, then I'm just like, I'm so bored. But for me, like, kissing is super, super, super important and just liking the same thing sexually. So if I really like someone, and then they kiss me and it's really awful, and I've waited 3 months for that moment. Yeah, I'm gonna be really mad.

Oh, that happened to me. Yeah, the man that I am with was a horrible first kiss.

Oh really?

Oh, now let me just tell you, first of all, I did not make it 90 days. Okay, I'm too much of a slut for that.

Yeah, yeah.

We— I waited until our 13th date to kiss.

Okay, that's still a long time.

It is a fucking long time. Yes, I agree. It was painful and challenging. But what it did do was it weeded out all the men that I dated that just wanted me for sex, who did not actually want more. So that was the point. It really weeded them out. And no judgment to them. They wanted something different than me. Neither is right or wrong. But when I kissed this man for the first time, so then it was not great. And so, but you know what, Suzanne, I'm a great teacher. Yeah. So I just looked at him and I said, okay, so now Can I show you how I like to be kissed? Yeah, yeah, and he said, yeah, that's hot. So I explained to him, you know, I don't want it wet and sloppy. I don't want to tongue wrestle. I don't want the snake jab, you know. Yeah, I'm just a touch and go kind of a girl, touch and go, roll around, you know, and soft and passionate at other moments when it's appropriate. So I taught him how to kiss. He had been in a marriage for 30 years with a woman who did not like to kiss, so he just hadn't really for 30 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I taught him how to kiss.

And I think stopping you there, like, that is such an important lesson that you've just said, right? A huge important lesson, which is this is like a momentous moment, but it's also a fairly low-risk situation because you're at the beginning of a relationship, you're exploring each other's preferences, and you're at a stage where you can tell somebody, hey, you know what, I really like it this way, rather than 30 years down the line where you're like going, this is a big momentous conversation I'm going to have now, and I got to work myself up to it for the next 2 years. Yeah. Could go really badly. And I'm now— but there's nothing really to go too badly at this point, because if he's like, fuck you, you can just go, you know what, we had 13 dates. I thought I was gonna like you, but actually, uh, that's exactly right.

What I loved about him is he was a great student. Yeah, he still is a great student in the bedroom. Yeah, I'm also a very, very communicative person.

Yeah.

So even before we had sex, I was like, let's just get our expectations. Like, here's what I like. Here's what I expect. Let's talk. I want feedback. I want us to be talking during. I mean, I don't want to be having like, yeah, yeah, a conversation, but I want to hear I like that, direct me as well and I will direct you. So, and that was the thing that I enjoy the most about him. And girl, he will not come up for air. He's a dedicated student. Okay?

We love that.

He's an overachiever. And I just taught him exactly what I wanted and, and he did it. That's good.

Yeah, I have been together for almost a year. Yeah. Amazing. That's amazing. Yeah. Did you meet him on a dating app as well?

No, ma'am. He actually followed me on the platform on TikTok.

No.

After his divorce, he found me. And followed me on the platform for about 8 or 9 months, not knowing that I live in the same town as him.

No.

Yes, because I try not to really share my location because I'm a single woman. Um, and one day I was in the gym, it was the day after Thanksgiving, and he saw me and I could see like this look of recognition, but I didn't recognize him. And he like walked over to me and he's like, Your Hope with Holly. And I was like, oh shit, this is embarrassing. You've seen me cry over men. You've seen me talk about my sex life. And he was like, I need to take you out to dinner. You have helped me so much. I agree with you on all these things. This is fantastic. So we developed a really good friendship. We spent a lot of— our 13 dates were intense.

Wow.

We're very, very both communicative. He's very smart, a great communicator. He's my best friend, and we've been together for almost a year now.

That's amazing. Yeah, see, I've got someone that I've been together with, it'll be a year next week, but all we do is have sex on Sundays.

So you have a lovely situationship going on.

But here's the thing, right? Here's the thing, because I hear what you're saying and I don't disagree with you, and I think there's a lot of merit to what you've done, and I think a lot of women will be listening and going, yep, yep, yep, absolutely. But my flip of that is that firstly, if you have really good sex with somebody And it's really fun and they make you laugh. Like, for me, they're sort of halfway there. I don't really want a full-time relationship with him for a number of reasons, but, but on— but I've still gotten to know a shedload about this guy. Yeah, because I've seen him on a consistent basis for— so I know about his kids and I know about his job and I know what pisses him off and I also know what's pissed other women off about him because, because I, because of our situationship, he's just himself. So there's, and I'm just myself. So yeah, I'm like, I get the fact, like, he's not a planner, right? I like planners. Okay. I like, I like people who plan and I like people who are spontaneous and I like people who are curious. And that's my thing. So mostly, most of the men I go out with, or have ever been out with, have never planned things. They're always like, where do you want to go? What do you want to do? And you know what, I'm a mom like you. I've, I've planned my everything in my life for so fucking long. It's just like, just, just say something. Just, just something that's gonna just like, you don't want to do it. Like, hey, wouldn't it be fun to go ice skating? Not really. But I will. Yes, you'll see me fall flat on my face 100 times, but that's okay, because at least I didn't have to suggest it, right?

Yes, and it was still an adventure, and it's still an adventure.

But for most men, I've— that's the biggest challenge that I find. So I'm willing to compromise in my way, and I do find that I get to know them over a period of time. And, and let's face it, even if you go on 13 dates with someone, you have loads and loads of chat, until you've actually spent 6 months with them, I would say 6 months minimum, really, you don't really know the shit that's in the closet. Not really.

You're exactly right.

So for me, I know all the shit that's in the closet now anyway. Like, even in my situationship, I still know it because, because we've just been who we are. Like, that's it.

Now, you're fortunate that you're not handicapped like me. You're okay with just having a friends with benefits situation. Yeah, my problem was is really great sex kept me in bad relationships for a minimum of 2 years.

Yeah, I can see that's a problem. Yeah, yeah.

And my dating coach told me, uh, she said you can, uh, you can take— you can make a good man— wait, I'm sorry, she said You can, because this is always a little confusing to hear. She said, you can make a good— you cannot make a good man a good lover. I'm sorry, I made that wrong again. She said, you can make a good man a good lover, but you cannot make a good lover a good man.

Yeah, if he's not already.

Right. And so that's what I held on to, my saving grace. I will find a good man, and then I'm a good teacher, and I'll make him a good lover if he's willing. If he wasn't willing, then I would have moved on.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Because not, you know, not everybody is, and that's, you know, you're a bit younger than I am, but, you know, at my age, it's a lot of, you know, I just think, oh, do I have time to teach someone? Do I want to teach someone? I don't, I personally don't really want to. I mean, you know, I'm, I've said a number of times, like, I'm quite submissive in certain ways.

Oh yeah.

So I don't really want to be the dominant one telling people what to do. I do that like in my normal life all the time. So I'm a bit of a controlling person. So the bedroom for me is where I take— I put— I park all of that. So if I have to do that in the bedroom as well, I'm like exhausted. I just think, well, you can teach them how to be dominant. Yeah, you can. Well, you say that. I've never had that. Experience of doing, of teaching someone that. I was with someone and tried to teach him, and I just, he didn't, he wasn't creative enough to really understand what goes into any kind of roleplay situation. He wasn't, he just wasn't. He was like, I don't really get it, if I'm honest. And I just said, oh, and I had to demonstrate by being dominant myself. And he was like, God, that's so horny. And I was like, that's right, it is. But now you need to do that, you know, and he was just, nah. So yeah, so I think, I think, I do think that you're, you're absolutely right though, that, that there's a, that there's something still a lot to be said for that old-fashioned way of wooing that our parents used to do, right? Yes, of not giving in immediately and And, and if you want to get married, if you want to have a long-term relationship, long-term relationship, yeah, yes.

But if you're not looking for a long-term relationship, then yeah, you know, turn up the night, like go for it.

And, and, and I think as well that people, if you have good sex and you have laughs, sometimes it does turn into long-term relationships. And I know people that have gotten married that met on swinging sites, right?

Sure. Yeah, that is true. I wouldn't say that that's the majority. I would say that generally, and psychologists tend to agree, that if you're actually looking for a long-term partner, you do need to hold off physical intimacy just to make sure first, is there any level of compatibility, emotional connection, care and consideration for the other person? Intellectual connection, spiritual connection. Make sure all of that's there first. And once you have that basis, um, then you can. But I— the problem was I would get dick drunk right away. I would get like, you know, you girl, you know, the oxytocin, the adrenaline, the, um, all of the chemicals that would run through my body, the dopamine. And I— and women especially just get really We think because they had sex with us that they love us.

Well, they do love us, Holly, while everything's happening.

They love one part of us mostly.

That's right, that's what they love, and I know that as well. I, I'm a guy that I'm, that's currently living in my flat was my ex-boyfriend, and he's very hot, and when I first, much younger than me, and When we first met, I said to him, listen, and we'd had sex and it was like really amazing.

Yes.

Listen, I just want to tell you that there may come a time, and it may be after we've just done this a couple of times, when I may just inadvertently blurt out, I love you. Okay. And I want you to know in that moment that I like, I don't want you to get scared because I realize it can be very scary. Like, you've only known me 5 minutes and I might, you know, I might just blurt this out. But if things get really juicy and exciting, it's, it just happens.

Of course.

And I just want you to just know that so that you don't think I'm really in love with you. Like, I don't, I don't even know you.

But right, you're saying I love you in this moment right now. That is amazing. And my body is filled with all these chemicals and my balls are drained. So now I love you right this second. It's the same as when, um, an old Italian grandma cooks me food. I love her too. Okay, it's the same thing.

That's right, that's right. But I, you know, I needed, I needed to be clear about that. I needed to be clear. But do you find now that you've been doing, um, now that you've been doing your TikTok channel, how long have you been doing it for? I'm just curious to know.

Oh, about 3 years. Um, yeah, my TikTok has kind of gone all over the place. I started it because I had a transgender son that, uh, had, you know, some— would talk to me about some of his struggles and thoughts And I— and my thought was, oh honey, you feel alone having all of these thoughts, but all of us have these thoughts. So I don't have a lot of shame. So I thought, well, I'll go on to a public platform and share all of my thoughts.

Yeah, yeah.

Good, bad, and ugly, and my struggles, and let other people maybe know that they're not alone. Yeah. And it blew up. I actually have a bigger following on Facebook Uh, um, and then I have YouTube and Instagram as well. All of them is Hope with Holly. But, and people do book calls with me to either talk about deconstructing from their religion, uh, deconstructing from the patriarchy, dating— mostly dating, dating questions is mostly the case. But, you know, I have so much fun Talking to these women all around the world.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And we're more alike than we're different.

Yeah, for sure. And, and similar to you, it's interesting, like TikTok is my biggest channel, but— and I'm not massive on Facebook. I've got like coming up to 20,000, so not massive, but they're very— they're much more my audience on Facebook. I think that's the thing, it's like I, I the comments that I get are much more relatable comments and people that are asking questions and all that stuff. Whereas TikTok, I don't know about you, I get a lot of African men that want to marry me. So yes, yes, like, like, just a huge amount from, from Nigeria. I mean, it's, it's just crazy the number of young— so clearly they're doing something with us. The, the platform is, which is a bit Yeah, it's a bit annoying, frankly, because there's a lot of people on those platforms who would really benefit and are probably just not seeing it just because, yeah, but algorithm, whereas I think Facebook is pro and YouTube for that matter is probably just a better place. But yeah, I mean, I think that's the, for me, that's the wonderful thing about short-form video is that you can kind of just, you can just play around with it. Right. So, you know, you start out saying one thing and then, yes, next thing you know, you find a whole bunch of people are responding to a dating story.

And generally that is my biggest followers come from dating mostly. So I talk about that most. I tell them the path that I did, that the first thing that I did, and I can share this with your audience, the very first thing I did was figure out who I was. So I made a list, you can't see it very well, of 50 qualities about myself. I really took time, took a bunch of personality tests, and really dug deep into who I was, not who I was supposed to be in the church or in society or whatever. Figured out exactly who I was. Then I read Mark Manson's book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. It's a phenomenal book. And it teaches you what fucks to give, what fucks about. Okay, so he teaches you how to understand what you actually value in life. And so I sat down and I wrote down, uh, my next list of the 15 things that I value, are my, are my values. Things like new experiences. I value new experiences and safety and curiosity and resilience. And autonomy, all these things.

Yeah.

Then, uh, I had to write down what my goals were. I wrote down, based on who I am and what my values are, I wrote what my goals were for my life. And all of that helped me make my big list of the kind of man that I want in my life.

Yeah, yeah.

So I have 36 qualities of non-negotiables they are almost all character qualities.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because like I said, I, in order for me to be turned on, I need a man who's intellectually smart, who has good character and emotional intelligence. And then I separated at the bottom of my list of preferences, you know, that, that he'd be 6'6". I like a big, tall, gruffy country boy man. I live in the country. I like a man that drives a truck. I like a beard, you know, just superficial things. Yeah, yeah. But girl, I got all of it.

That's amazing.

I got all of it because there's only two that you ever get. And what is that?

Yeah, my, my friend of mine was like, who's been married forever to his wife, who's lovely and very happy, he said, you know, you Pick the 2 biggest things that are important to you because that's, that's as much as you're going to get. Like the 2, the 2 major things. So it could be like, because if you say funny, for me, most people that are funny are smart. So my son said to me, Mom, if you say funny, you get smart as a byproduct. So then you get 3 really.

So now that's true. So my my 36 qualities, most of them fall under character.

Yeah, right.

So if we put an umbrella over it, then yes, I need somebody who has character, who has, you know, an integrity would fall under that, honesty would fall under that, loyalty would fall under that. So yes, I agree with you. But the thing was, I had this list which held me accountable So when I went out on these dates with men, listen, I went out on dates with extremely attractive men.

Yeah, yeah.

That I did want to jump their bones.

Yeah.

And this list held me accountable.

Yeah, yeah.

Because I would hear them speak and like you and I talked about before, it would turn into a therapy session where I would be guiding them on their heartbreak from their past relationships and shit. And I'm like, okay, no. No, now my vagina just dried up. But, um, but this list held me accountable. The thing I also want to— I remind women all the time is you can't ask for anything that you're not. So, you know, so we have to be cognitive of that as well. But I held out. I didn't kiss anybody for a year because nobody qualified. Wow, that's really hard for my standards. Yeah, yeah, of what I needed. And it was challenging, girl. It was definitely challenging. I called a bunch of my girlfriends and I was like, can you come over and hold me and hug me? And like, I need to be cuddled.

Yeah, and, and, and I suppose that's the thing is just some form of physical connection, right? It's, it's often we use sex as a replacement for a lack of other types of physical connection in our lives. When I live in Spain for the winter, and I remember going to, it was like a kink kind of group that I belong to. And this younger woman said to me, do you do hugging? And I went, hugging? She was like, yeah, do you do like hugging, hugging, you know, just hugging people?

Can I hug you?

And I was like, not, not really. And she was like, I, I would like to hug you. And I went, oh, okay. And I felt— and it was like, it felt weird, you know, because she was— but of course, the thing about— and a friend of mine runs this thing called The Touch Project, which is about platonic touch to help people that aren't looking for sex. These are just people who are lonely or who are feeling the lack of physical touch, to just be able to experience platonic touch in a safe space. And she does that in group workshops. And it's a really— it's a growing thing. Cuddle parties, hugging, platonic touch. Oh, it's quite— it's become quite a big thing. But I think that's the thing, it's like, as you said, if you don't kiss anybody, if you don't touch anybody, then I think as human beings, we do start missing that physical connection that we just have with other human beings, which is really important. So making sure during that period of time you've got a girlfriend somebody that you can just go, come over and just like give me a big cuddle.

Or what I recommend is getting massages every week. I recommend doing— joining dance, uh, classes so you can be con— I recommend getting a dog that you can cuddle with. I hug everybody at Walmart. Like, I go to grocery store, I wear a t-shirt. I wore a t-shirt that said free hugs. Like I hugged everybody. Yeah, yeah, desperate for physical touch.

Yeah, yeah, because I think that's what I'd find really difficult is just not having that, you know, because I know for me sometimes sex is just a way to just, just, you know, just be close to somebody. And because I don't— I'm not— I don't get emotionally involved easily because I have, you know, big— I have a lot of radar that goes on that's like, no, no, no. Even if it's really great, I'm quite aware of where it's not great. So I can just, I can just—

Do you have avoidant attachment style?

Well, that's curious that you should say that. Somebody said that to me. It was like, oh, you sound like an avoidant attachment. Might have been my son, actually. And I said, no, I've got a no bullshit radar. That's what I've got. So I can do, I can, I can be close to somebody. I'm not avoiding attachment. I'm just very aware of, of where things just wouldn't work and where they do. And I'm very much around, if this bit works really well for both of us, let's just stay in the lane. Like the lane is good. The lane doesn't have to move. It might, it could move a little, but it's not going to move a lot. You know, and I have friends that are really awesome friends. And my, you know, my ex-boyfriend is my best friend. It's like we have— that's, I suppose that's the thing is like I have basically a platonic marriage with my ex. Like we're just so close. We know everything about each other. We allow each other to be the screwed up people that we are. It's, you know, but that means that neither of us need a lot of other stuff. He's, he's celibate now because he doesn't want— he's just decided to work on himself. He's doing what you did. He's doing that. And I just went, you know what, I like having sex. So I'm just gonna find people that I like having sex with.

And that's good. I am very pro-women. I am pro-do what the hell you want to do. Yeah. Okay. So, and I love when people are self-aware enough to know what exactly they want, and then they go after and do that. And, and so I try to educate women like, what exactly are you looking for? Are you just looking for casual sex? Then do that. Are you looking for companionship? Then do that. Are you looking for partnership? They're all different.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And there's different levels of commitment. And I'm not advocating one or the other. Yeah, I'm just like, the first step is knowing exactly what you want. And then going after that.

Yeah, yeah. And I would say as well, you know, one of the things that I've learned as an older person as well is, is that we can design these relationships in the way that we want. And I think that's the big thing, is that when you entered into your first marriage, you had a whole bunch of rules. You were given a— you were given a script. Yes. Here's what this looks like. And you willingly wandered into that script and just said, okay, fine, that's what I, you know, that's the script. And as we get older, we realize, you know what, there is no script.

Fuck the script.

The script can be whatever it is for you. The thing is to release yourself from societal expectations, which can be incredibly hard for a lot of people who were brought up to believe that it's all about monogamy, or everything has to lead to a marriage, or you have to do this, you have to do that. Releasing those societal expectations can take, and it has taken me, years.

Yes.

And it can take a lifetime of work to listen to what's going on inside of you and go, no, no, no, I'm not going to do that. Even though the Cinderella syndrome is going off over there.

Oh my God, yes.

You know, going, come on, the Prince Charming, he's still out there. I'm like, No, fuck off. He's, you know—

No, I agree. I, I'm— I hate— I just posted a video today talking about the delusion that we were fed as women from the patriarchy and from Christianity, um, that our knight in shining armor would come and we had a small window of opportunity to lock that down and to have the babies. And that we can fight that stereotype. Who says that you can't just move in with your best girlfriend and get a sperm donor and have a child together and raise that child platonically. And who says that we can't just Golden Girls it up? Who says that we can't just do life our way? And that is really what makes the world so much more beautiful and colorful, in my opinion.

Yeah.

How boring it would be if we were all the same.

Yeah, for sure. For sure. And that is a really great place to end this 30— should have been 30, but nearly 45 She was the amazing Hope with Holly. And we all— and the thing is, I think that's the thing, is like, it's cool to have hope. It's cool to have hope. We should still retain our hope because it's, you know, anything is possible.

And hope in ourselves. Yeah. That's like, I don't come onto my platform and hope for that knight in shining armor. That's not what it is about. It is hope in yourself that you will create a life that you love so much that you, that you no longer allow toxic people into your life to disturb that.

Yep, absolutely.

Whatever that looks like for you, that's where my hope is, to trust ourself again and to have hope in myself that I can do this, that every setback is an opportunity for a comeback, and I, I'm resilient and I keep coming back and And I keep growing and learning and dismantling old beliefs and creating new ones. And that's exciting. That makes life so exciting.

150%. Holly, you are a gem.

You are too, Suzanne Noble. Thank you so much for having me.