Episode 119: Toxic Masculinity in Men's Groups

Suzanne Noble: I'm very excited to welcome our new sponsor, Higher Nature, who have created Rekindle, which I'm currently trying out and is working a treat. A 100% natural libido-enhancing supplement for women, which contains clinically backed ingredients to give your sex life a boost, and who doesn't want that? Hi, I'm Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. And today I'm with a guy— actually, we recorded, I think it was about 6 months ago now, and unfortunately the recording got corrupted, and I tried to fix it, he tried to fix it, we couldn't fix it. So we have come back and you know what, it's going to be a new discussion. So I'm with Christopher Hands. He's in some very exotic part of the world with a lovely white light looking shirt on. And I'm in a sweatshirt and a scarf. So we can talk about that at some point. But Chris is a sexologist. He's a shamanic worker. And yeah, I remember the last time we spoke, it was, it was, it was in relation to more to kind of men's groups. How you were working with men, and which was really interesting. Anyway, welcome, welcome to the show.

Thank you, my pleasure, Suzanne, for you to have me here. Thank you.

Yeah, well, we got there eventually. Yeah, I remember one of the interesting aspects of our conversation was we were talking about men and the men that you work with in your groups. Can you just tell me a little bit about that?

Well, it's been actually two men's groups of which it started, I think, quite positively. We were aged, I would say, between early 20s to 40s, and myself being the oldest member. You know, I had a writer who wrote a book on how so many women came from their whole backgrounds to live in Portugal and how many— about 20 women and about 20 men, I think it's called. Women Who Walk or Men Who Walk. And she included me in that book, as you know, in terms of men's groups and that sort of help. So I just thought, I'll, you know, I'll explore this a bit further. So we got a group going and it sort of fizzled out because what happened is, you know, we did all these exercises originally. We went to people's houses, we showed up, we went for walks, all sounded very positive. And then after, you know, with the pandemic, people became more isolated and It started going into very sort of automaton kind of stuff where it would be pickup artistry, how to meet women using pickup artistry. And I said, you know, where's the organic side of this? And it really got— and then it got into, you know, a lot of criticism of the way men and women are relating, all these thick YouTube videos. And I said, look, I find this so negative. I've tried to, you know, be a man, but I meant to also, albeit older, but, you know, can we change the theme? And I think it just, people just fizzled out. And then I, then another group appeared and it, the change, the group was called Polarities in Portuguese, mostly Portuguese members, a few other, a few English, but again, I was the oldest and again, it was very negative. So my whole take home on this is that there's this, the attitude between men and women and dating and this negativity is a preeminent thing these days. You know, plus I have a lot of friends who are doing online dating and also I haven't done for a long time. I was actually counseling for dating sites and stuff a long time ago. That was when you'd write your, you know, your stuff, not just swipe left or right, you know. But I also understand the importance of, you know, how you look and how that's the first kind of gut instinct. So I kind of let it all settle. And, you know, I'm now more open to, you know, what people have to say. Not necessarily I'm going to, you know, join the group or agree, but that's kind of, you know, my take, take on. But it has been a little bit, I'd say, negative in that.

Is it still going, these groups, or one of these groups are going?

But I am not taking part because it just became so negative, you know, you know, how, you know, we need a, you know, toxic masculine, toxic, you know, it's all about toxic masculinity, you know, feminine, you know, all the messages you hear thousands of times over on YouTube and all these different platforms.

Yeah, and it's really, I mean, I was having a conversation with one of my kids on the weekend actually who plays football and we were talking about this just in relation to some of the stuff that I'm doing and he was saying that even just the boys that he, you know, that he comes across playing football and in other places, the way they talk about women is just generally so crude and derogatory. And these are young men in their early 30s, right?

Right.

So it's just pervasive. This whole way of speaking about women seems to be persuasive— pervasive. And when I hear people like yourself going, I had to step away from these groups because I just couldn't work with these people. I find that incredibly disheartening because what, what's the solution here? We know that this is, that the Andrew Tates, the YouTube videos, this toxic masculinity, it's, it's creating these chasms in how men and women relate and it doesn't seem to be getting any better.

Sadly. Yeah, I think it's, it's, it's sort of that, um, almost physics, physics, uh, reality of when you go from one extreme, you know. I won't say the MeToo— I mean, I would say the MeToo movement. I would even say, you know, my, uh, my mentor, that, uh, the coach mentor, uh, in sexology, also is very disheartened by that whole movement and how it, how it went from one extreme. And I think the pendulum's swung back to another extreme and hopefully, you know, we'll go back to the middle. You know, it's robotic these days. I mean, with all the, you know, pornography sites and things that are available without— and plus the pandemic kept us online and on media but not, you know, seeing each other in person. You know, that changes theories about, you know, how our bodies— it rewires our whole brain and how we actually see things these days, causing great anxiety. That's a whole other, you know, That's a whole other theory, you know. One theory we call it, you know, it's based on the flight, fight, freeze thing. More people are freezing now, more people are, you know, anxious. They don't know what to— how to react. And so they kind of just withdraw or, you know, go to alternatives, you know, on screen instead of live, right?

Yeah, I mean, we know that these problems are— we hear a lot about toxic masculinity, but I suspect a lot of that seems to be aimed at younger men and, and men who are trying to find a partner and struggling to do that. How do you see that applying to people of our own age?

Good question. That's a good question indeed. Um, I do meet people of my age and older, but I think I mean, either they're in a relationship or they're, a lot of them, alone. They go out with other men of their groups. They go out, you know, whether it's walks or activities. But the sexual side of it, the sexuality, healthy sexuality side, I really don't hear much about it. I think people have kind of withdrawn, certainly in the world that I've, you know, experienced. I would say in Europe, Portugal, you know, some of the— some traveling in South American countries, I think a little bit different. But I would say, yeah, it's, it's not a subject that comes up much. Even, you know, if I say I'm a sex coach, it's kind of hush-hush.

So bearing in mind that we're talking about places outside the UK, do you— how much of what you see is cultural versus just what you see more generally amongst, especially amongst older people? Do you think— because we always think that Mediterranean countries, maybe people are more physical, maybe people are more sexual, you know, it's sunnier.

Yeah, it's a good point. It's a good point. You know what I've seen is I've seen that there was this— my take on it, you know, from observing is that it was that way that you could go to countries and it's like that spell of, you know, the— maybe come from the US hadn't you know, hadn't reached some of these countries. But I think it has now because media is so, you know, available everywhere. You know, people send their little messages on, you know, it's everywhere, all these messages. Like, I've heard, I've seen that message or I've seen that, you know, film 100 times old, you know, and it's, that's everywhere. So I would say certainly in South America, there is a more traditional approach, which is actually more hardening, you know, uh, you know, more of an idea of family, more slightly more traditional. And it's these men's groups that I've seen it, even though they're very angry, they do want— when I speak to them, you know, sometimes in meetup groups and Internationals events that I go to, sometimes they, they do say they want a more traditional connection with women, you know. Not necessarily they have to stay at home, but, you know, it's just gone crazy now. Wow, no one's winning, you know. And the kids are suffering and they're just not getting exposure to quality time and time outside. It's usually in a gym. Quick, quick, go back to the house, online, end of the day, kind of take it same again next day.

Yeah, because when I live— I live in the Gran Canaries during the winter, and when I go to little local places, I have to say, although it's very, very traditional, I do find it incredibly encouraging that there is still a big culture around dance in a lot of these countries. So there's a lot of activities that are just involved with people, couples dancing. And in Spain especially, and Latin America for that matter, you see loads of really quite old, you know, old people. In their 70s, even in their 80s and beyond, still grabbing each other's hands, still dancing with each other in these local places where people are playing local music and women are dancing with women. And, you know, like, it's really quite charming. And a friend of mine that lives out in the Grand Canaries as well, she loves dancing and there's always activities. And I think, you know, one of the things that I, I do like about those places is that that sort of couples dancing, which my parents used to do when they were younger, it's still got, um, it's still very present in this society, whereas we've lost all of that ability to just turn up at a place and the music comes on and walk across the room to somebody and grab their hand and ask if they'd like to have a dance with us. Like, that just doesn't go on in the UK for the most part.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think that, you know, it does— what I love about it is it doesn't always have to lead to sex, but it is about creating a physical connection. There's something to be said for that. And, and I certainly see older people that are still doing couples dancing that are still out there. And I, and I do respect that and feel that That's something that's been lost in the, in the British culture. That means that people do, you know, there's less things like that for people to do. So, but, you know, but I take on board your point that it's, it's, it's challenging because on the one hand you've got this kind of quite traditional view of, of, you know, male and female roles you see within these cultures and older people where the wife stays at home and she does the cooking and and you know, the nana sort of trope and all of that sort of thing. And then on the flip side, you've got young women who are ambitious, career-focused, career-orientated, and young men, I think, struggle with reconciling this.

Exactly.

What they're used to and what they suddenly are now having to work through.

Absolutely. We, you know, I take to heart what you said and, and, and you do when you, when you said it, I do reflect actually on my trip to Gran Canaria where I was actually meeting older folks. They were actually Indian background who'd been on the island like 40 or 50 years with which I did business years ago. Hadn't seen them for 20 years and they were so open. We went out to lunch. The daughters were present, the grandchildren, and they said, come anytime. We're your family. They said, go to Praia de Canteras, you know, on Gran Canaria. Yeah. Have old folks, you know, meeting every day in the same place. I thought, refreshing. So I'm going to go. You know, I was very heartened by it. I was very, you know, kind of moved by that experience. So I left thinking, yeah, I definitely want to go back. And I think you can, you know, find these places, but you have to create your own bubble of friends. You have to go to that box. So, you know, you go to that particular angle where you meet a certain group that is on the same wavelength, right? So I'm sure it's out there. It's just sometimes you just have to go online or meet, you know, it's just a different way of, you've got to kind of find it in a different way. So often it starts online through whether it's inter-nations meetup groups and that sort of thing.

So, yeah, I mean, the point though is that what on the one hand you've got these, you know, these quite traditional activities that go on and on the other hand, you've got things like men's groups and, you know, self-development workshops and all these sorts of things. And these two groups of people don't seem to engage with one another, you know. The people that go to these kind of self-development orientated things and maybe are spouting out misogynist nonsense are not the same group that are going and just grabbing some lovely lady's hand going out dancing with them, right? So there's a, there's a disconnect between all of these different groups who could probably— well, one could definitely learn from the other. I mean, you know, if you're struggling to figure out how to engage with women, one of the best ways to do that is to go where women are, like dance groups, for instance.

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, dance. Yeah, good connection.

And do something that creates a body-heart connection, right?

Yeah, you actually mentioned something also that was it, which was shut down, but you know, biodanza, you probably know biodanza.

No, I don't know that.

Biodanza was a guy, was started by a guy, I think, from also South America, and there are groups all over the world, and there were hundreds, there are hundreds in Portugal, there were, you know, you could go and you go and you pay $5 the first time you decide if that group groups for you. It could be 40 people, could be 10, 15. And it was quite good because you get to connect and you start— it's actually a very organic way where you, you know, there could be people who are more on the computer, they don't know how to connect, so they're just sort of looking at each other. And then there's a whole method by which you slowly, during that meeting, unwind. And by the end, you might be dancing with another guy, you might 2 women might be dancing together, but you're feeling this. It's a whole theory and way of life of which I know people who are, you know, in professions which they found stressful and they became Biodanza trainers. I started myself to do the training program, but it was 3 years and I felt I wasn't going to. And again, the pandemic happened. It kind of shut it down. But Biodanza, B-I-O-D-A-N-Z-A, and that's a very good It still exists, obviously, because there's thousands of groups and international meetings, you know, that people can have. So I should look it up and see what's going on in that department. But that's one way for people to certainly connect.

Oh, I've never heard of that. Is it a bit like Five Rhythms?

Exactly. This sort of thing. Exactly. Five Rhythms. Yeah, exactly. Which I did in London also. You probably have done that. Same, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I have friends that are really into 5 rhythms. For people who don't know what 5 rhythms are, it is exactly as it sounds. It's a series of dances that are just free dancing where it starts out in one rhythm and then it builds into different rhythms until the rhythms become quite frenetic and the dancing becomes quite frenetic, but it starts out quite slow and it can be quite sexy. It can be quite amusing. It can be— it's quite liberating to just be— there's no specific pattern and you're just letting your body go and doing things that— whatever, whatever, whatever your body wants to do at that moment. Yeah.

And you know, I remember now when I did a training for therapists in Poland for the sexology, you know, they were called SAAAs, you know, Sexual Attitude readjustment kind of thing. It was the therapist we met in a, in a, out in a Polish countryside. And there was a lady, I think she, I think originally English. And she actually was integrated into that whole session with us, which is about contact, connection for, you know, for us, because we'd always been clients. It's like, this is, it's our week, right? And we used biodanza throughout the week. And at the end of the week, you know, when we were kind of all open and, you know, everything hanging out by that time, people were literally cradling someone else in their arms. I mean, it got to that point where vulnerability was really the, you know, the outcome, which was fantastic. I really found it was really well incorporated to that week. So it has all of these other sides, the whole philosophy, way of life. People like literally, it's like their family, you know. And so we're using these vehicles, you know, to try to find connection, contact, dance, be a dancer, find rhythms. But yeah, it usually means going into some sort of, you know, group. I think Suzanne Noble Noble, it's worth mentioning, obviously people, you know, you go into these groups and at the beginning it can be difficult because you know, what can you say these days which is not seen as sexist? Or, you know, you might say I was joking, you know. Um, but, uh, I think it's that idea you've got to feel safe first before you can, you know, express yourself. And I think that's the big problem. I mean, you know, there was— my mom was laughing. I remember before she passed on a few years ago, she was laughing. She said she showed me an article in New York Times, and it was about, you know, how men could not even put their arm around a woman. They would like float around the shoulder and it was like, what, you know, what can you do? Can I give you a hug? You know, clients, you know, you ask, can handshake or hug? And it's got to that point where it's not become natural. Um, it's really, you know, unfortunate. But, uh, you know, so it's good to, you know, connection, body connection, because we're all floating with too much stimulation above the head, above the body.

And I think that's kind of what, what it all comes down to, isn't it? I was, um, I was reading a guy that on Substack who was talking about one of his dates, and he was saying that during the date he felt this very strong physical connection, but he was also aware that it might be highly inappropriate to just lean in and give this woman a kiss, even though he really felt compelled to give her a kiss. And he decided that he was going to go for it with the view that he might get slapped in the face or something might happen. And so he went for it and she responded. And then afterwards, after they stopped kissing, she went, oh, well, that was a surprise. And but not in a, you know, in a kind of lighthearted way.

Well, that's nice.

And then the, and then the other, they ended up going back together and stuff. But I said to him that when I was, when I was more actively dating and younger, one of my things that I used to say when I got to that place was I didn't wait for men to say it. I would just say, I really must kiss you now.

Oh wow, you're a rare breed. We need more of you.

And I would just say, I really must kiss you now. And normally they would be like, oh good, okay, I would like to do that as well. So that was—

that would be very refreshing to have women, you know, to, you know, you know, wanting to say that. Well, that's also right. That's great. Wow. That's— I'm glad you shared that.

But, you know, he said he felt very vulnerable in that moment, recognizing that this situation could go badly wrong. And I do think you're right. The pendulum has swung the other way. On the flip side of that, I think what things like biodanza, five rhythms, other dance and group, you know, activities where people can have the opportunity to connect. And five rhythms, you don't have to necessarily touch each other. In fact, Generally, you just kind of, kind of dancing in the same space and you're just kind of aware of each other's energies and what's going on. And sometimes you might, you know, get close to them, but it's, it's very rarely that you connect, but yeah, actually touch the other person. But there is definitely something around, I suspect, the men's groups that you go to, this feeling of being incredibly disconnected, quite lonely, quite angry. And, and part of that must be just this complete lack of physical connection that they, they've reached at this point in their life where they're just not able to break through into a situation where there's any kind of contact. And then, and sex now has become so transactional in so many ways that it then feels artificial. You know, it just doesn't feel like there's a natural kind of flow towards that. So again, it just seems to me that there's some of this anger is in, some of this anger is just because they just, for me, I just think they just don't know what to do.

They just don't know what to do.

They feel stuck.

Well, yeah, there's the theory I was trying to remember was, It's called polyvagal theory. And do you know that? Have you heard of that?

No, no.

It's, if I've got it right, it's basically people, the autonomic nervous system, the sympathetic side is flight fight. And the parasympathetic is freeze. And now what I'm hearing is more people are freezing than ever. As you say, they don't know what to do. So they're just frozen. And you're in the theory to complete that cycle, which is created, which is healthy. It's necessary to socialize after freezing. So you have to have the touch or the people around you. Exactly the opposite is what happened during the pandemic. So we needed the touch, but we got like, get away, you might have, you know, COVID or whatever it is. So that you can see there's all these disgruntled and frustrated, anxious people. And it's very, very easy. You can see, and they don't know what's wrong. You know, they might have a panic attack. I have young people who are having panic attacks. You know, what's their first line? Is like, you know, I don't know what to do. Pornography or something, you know, a theory of, you know, pickup, which— because ABC, right? It's like math— math men, obviously, you know, like, I won't be sexist, but often it's like, how to fix this, you know? And they go to some sort of technique which is advertised, you know, which is It's unfortunate, um, but it, it, there is a, there was definitely a fallout from, from the, from all this and having to be on media. And then of course it's not only media. I, I remember a few years ago older folks were not on the media so much, but now I see that it's almost everybody on media. You know, you count people at the table waiting for ferry or something and it was like, you'd be more younger or up to, but now I see almost everyone. So it's like, I think the pandemic had that effect, that it forced everybody to be on the media, and that has obviously a consequence, you know. Um, and so how— what's the way forward, you know? How, you know—

yeah, in what I hear from older men more is, I— older women don't want to be sexual anymore. That's what I hear a lot. Like, women just don't want sexual, you know, or in the same vein as you're talking about with young men, I hear, well, who wants to be with an old woman, an old dried-up woman anyway, right? So, so I hear— well, yeah, but that's kind of, again, this perception. So I hear that, right? I hear again with older men as well, just this kind of frustration and anger this desperate need to connect and to be with somebody. And I hear on the flip side from women, I'm really happy on my own. I've got lots of friends. I'm doing okay. I've given up on sex. I'm not all that interested anyway. So, you know, those old guys are boring and they just want— what is it, a purse or a nurse? That's what—

that's what I got. Yeah. You know, like in certain, uh, in Portugal, I'm saying during the last few years when I've, I'd say, interviewed or, you know, met people and I've asked, what are your needs as an older woman, you know, maybe 65, I'd say 60, 65 or older, and, um, usually the reply was fairly similar and it was, I have my own space, I don't want to share that necessarily with a living, you know, I've done my marriage, I had the kids, 'But I want my space, but I would like a man, you know, to come once a week. We'd have dinner, we'd have sex, and that's it, and that's enough,' you know. And, uh, so that seemed to be the pervasive message. Is that something you, you sort of, uh, have, have found, or—

Well, I— that's the situation I have, right? So, so I've got that situation, and, um, and I wrote about that recently on my Just as a little funny note, because me and this person I have that situation with have been doing this for a year now, just over a year, and it's just perfect for both of us, I think. He certainly doesn't complain, and nor do I. And I had 700— it's— I'm still getting them. I've had 700 likes to this post. I've had like all these people reposting it and going, how can I find this? This is my ideal situation. Interestingly enough, from both sexes, not, not just— yeah. And the thing that was pointed out by a few people were, once you free yourself from this societal, you know, constraint of relationships looking a certain way.

Yes, exactly.

Certain mode, modality and everything. And you just go, actually, let's just like rewrite the rulebook. It doesn't have to look like that, then both people can get what they want as long as they know what they want.

So yeah, freeing them from even the idea that there has to be coupledom, you know, because there's all sorts of people in different directions. Yeah, but I would say England, UK, certainly London when I was there, that was like maybe 15, when I was living there 15 years ago, it seemed to be And this was surprising to me that in London folks would live in their own places and then they would date, but they're rarely, you know, the people I would meet was meeting online, um, you know, going to the pub, whatever, um, it would seem to be the reality. So the whole thing of shacking up, which happens a lot in, you know, you know, South American countries, whatever, for whatever financial reasons, for whatever, I think people are more comfortable, maybe. Well, that was again, I guess you can draw the line in post-pandemic and pre-pandemic, but I think that whole thing of being in too quickly or too much, you know, creates a lot of anxiety, which we already have. So that would be a reply. Yeah, just limit it to, you know, time that you can be, you know, more comfortable with. Yeah. So why not? Yeah, seems— yeah.

And I think You know, going back to sort of prescribed ways of being, and perhaps some of the men in the men's group are still thinking in those old ways of like, well, why, you know, this is what I want. I mean, I did encounter that in some relationships I've had where I was very clear about the fact I like seeing people on weekends, I'm not interested in living with people, and You know, I found, especially with men my own age and older, that that wasn't actually completely what they wanted, you know. I found with slightly younger men that— not— and I'm not talking like massively younger, I'm just talking about guys in their 40s, you know. They seem to be quite happy in this thing. So I think as, as we age and as we start thinking about perhaps having some mobility issues, needing some support around our health conditions, whatever it happens to be, we start thinking to ourselves, who's going to look after me? What's going to happen to me?

Right? Yeah. Yeah.

And some of these men are, are looking around, as women said, for a purse or a nurse. And mainly it seems to be a nurse. So, you know, and most of the women I know are still very active, quite fit. And being a nurse just is not of interest to them?

No, no, no, no. I think it works. I mean, I guess it works both ways. I remember this article, it was funny because I, I'd read it and I'd met a woman, she said, I read that article too. I was on like British Airways at the time. It was about, you know, how, you know, women preferred, you know, after a certain age, they like their space, their nest, and man is now a guest, you know, once a week or whatever. But if there was an issue, health issue with her, I mean, what if she falls down on the deck, no one finds it because no one, you know, and then what happens? So, you know, obviously, yeah, I mean, it works both ways, right? Um, but how to address that? Um, but it seems like with all the likes you have, that, that, you know, that whole thing of once a week a visit or a weekend, why not? You know, um, remember that film Same Time Next Year? Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's just once a year, but I mean, if you can go to that extreme, right, you Anything, I suppose, is possible.

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people do, once they open their minds to the possibility that things don't have to look a certain way. Yeah, both sexes may find that actually there's a lot more people out there who are— would be quite keen to engage in whatever— I call it a situationship— in whatever that situationship looks like. And it's about, for me, you know, that's one of the benefits of being older is just going, fuck the rule book. Like I've got kids, I've been married, I've done all that.

Right.

Like let's just rethink what I actually want, which is not—

Exactly. Good point. And I would say for them on the men's side, often there's a negative there because a man obviously sometimes just wants to fix. They want a solution. They want to fix something. Or do I fix the person? So it's like, no, let that go and just say, what are your needs? They might meet with someone else's rather than, oh, these are all the expectations that we have, you know, being very gung-ho about that. And so, you know, what you say, if that could be reflected in some, you know, speech or, you know, the way they write their profile or whatever, you know, a few lines, I'm sure that would open up possibilities.

Yeah, totally. I mean, it's funny, one of the guys on my post said You know, we often say that it's women that are always creating the drama in relationships, but it's not necessary and it's not necessarily true.

Takes two to tango.

How we're thinking, like you said, it's like, oh, but I need to fit in with, you know, I need to fit in with her and what she wants. Or, oh, I've always— I have a lot of guys that said, oh, my last relationship, she was, she was nuts, or she was crazy, or she was full of drama. To me, that's a bit of a red flag because I just think, well, you know, normally, yeah, I can tell you in my situationship, because I don't live in this person's pocket, I, I know what his issues are. Like, I, yeah, and I, and I'm okay with that. It's like, look, you know, the— I get the fact that some of this stuff it doesn't have long-term, it doesn't, it's not ideal, but in this situationship, it's fine. It doesn't impact on me.

It's got to be lighter. Yeah, I would say through my, certainly, you know, I can only say my own experience or clients is that, you know, there's actually a great book, I think David Richo, and I think it's called How to Be an Adult in a Relationship. The other one's called When the Past is the Present. So when that stuff of the marriage and the traumas which are there, you know, they're covered up because we want to date, we want to look good. But eventually they usually come up and it could be an emotional reaction. And it's like anxiety on both sides, you know, split instead of, okay, this is what happened. You know, you're okay, you're safe to, you know, not vomit on me, but, you know, express a little bit of what happened, which was difficult for me. And, you know, slowly get to know someone. But for me, it's usually been 3 years. It's taken 3 years of any relationship. I mean, and then if you just meet someone temporarily, it could take longer. But for that trust, to be able to say I can express things that I couldn't safely do in a previous relationship, for whatever reason, there was like the 3-year thing. So I sort of stick to my guns on that, that it's like a a 3-year process to, to really get to know someone and feel sort of more safe that you can actually, without having a consequence, a violent consequence to something that was said, you know, like, yeah, I totally agree, you know, you know, people who say, oh, I knew, I knew immediately when I met them it was right, I'm like, oh, that's such bullshit.

I mean, yeah, yeah, it takes years, years to get to know someone, to understand all their little per, you know, like weirdness and all the shit that goes on underneath the surface. And for them to stop being their perfect self, really.

Yeah. And then to relearn, right? Instead of the reaction happening. Hey, I was waiting for drama there. It didn't happen. Is something wrong? Exactly.

I don't do drama anymore. Anyway, it's been lovely to chat to you.

Likewise. My pleasure.

Shut down until the recording is uploaded.

So what happens now? So it ends and then the recording, nothing will—

That's it. I'm going to stop this. I'm going to say goodbye. You're not going to go anywhere yet.

I'm not going to go anywhere yet. But a pleasure and I hope to meet maybe in Gran Canaria or something.

Oh, that would be nice.

I'd love that. But not when it's freezing.

No. Very nice.