Episode 132: Living Apart Together

This week's episode has been sponsored by Oh My Bod, shifting the evolution of pleasure. Hi, this is Suzanne Noble, and you are listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. And recently I had a chat with the writer, author Laurie Stone, who decided at 78 that she was going to marry her long-term partner, Richard, quite on a bit of a whim. And we had a discussion about her rationale for doing that. It was all really interesting. I found it fascinating. But today I'm actually with a very dear friend of mine, Rose Rouse, who has also written about her relationship with her partner, who is now in his 80s. And Rose is in her 70s. But they have a very, very, very different relationship. They have been living apart but have been together for a decade. And when I say living apart, I don't mean like on the other side of London, which for me is about as far as I'm ever going to go. I mean like a 6-hour drive away from London to North Wales. So Rose, welcome to Sex Advice for Seniors.

Great to be here. I never imagined being here, and look, I'm here.

You are. And I just want to know, and I'm sure the readers will— the listeners will want to know, how did this whole thing start between you and your partner Asanga?

Yes, so at this juncture in my life, I was almost 60, and I had been single and having unhealthy romantic relationships for at least 10 years at that point. And then I decided, as I I was approaching 60, I thought, you know, I really would like now something cozier, some man that is actually quite responsible and cares about me deeply. And so I did lots of things to invoke it with my women's friends, you know, lists and rituals, because, you know, I'm fond of rituals. And nothing was really working because I was still going for unavailable charismatic men, my, you know, my defaults. Setting. And so I thought, ah, a friend of mine who's a therapist— most of my friends are psychotherapists— um, said, Rose, you should go on this week called The Path of Love. It'll be really a great opportunity for you. So I thought, okay, okay, I'll go and do it. It's a week, and I'm going to use that week to really put it out there that I am pissed off because I reckon I deserve a really great man, and why aren't they coming my way? You know, was like that. So really, this week was quite a dramatic week of catharsis and being in groups and saying, you know, how vulnerable I felt. I mean, I really went for it in a way that, you know, I'm totally capable of, and loads of dancing and everything and punching bags and everything. And so my, you know, partner that I didn't realize was going to be my partner, Asanga, uh, was there as they said, as an angel. So he'd already done the course, had come back to be a volunteer. And he was at one point after a cathartic afternoon of going crazy and dancing and but really just getting out all the emotions from the morning. He held me for about an hour and a half. I didn't realize that he had a serious rock climbing injury at the time. I mean, still has, but, you know, he did this thing of holding me and, you know, it was really sweet. And I didn't notice him. I mean, you know, I mean, he says this now that he did this, but at the time I wasn't really taking much notice. And actually, I didn't fancy him particularly. Sorry, Sangha. But that's how it was because I was conditioned in my old way. I was trying to lose this conditioning anyway. But afterwards we were in contact with one another and You know, the one— the thing that attracted me to Asanga was that he could write. He'd edited books in the past, I discovered, and he could write in terms of communication. That was so great. I was so like, oh my God, this man can communicate in this way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's important to a writer? Other people can write.

Oh, for sure. Absolutely. It's such an aphrodisiac, isn't it? Someone who can actually string a sentence together and make it sound really good.

And so he eventually invited— and he was seeing— I mean, this was a man who was widowed 2 years before, and he, he was on a mission to find a partner. And there were loads of other women around actually that he was kind of pursuing or having something with. So actually, it was quite good for me that, because then I didn't feel too much pressure on me at the time. And then he invited me to his wild home, his wild land, his his farmhouse in the middle of the countryside, a place in North Wales that I'd never been to and wasn't aware of. And so basically I took a risk, I mean, on this man, and I was absolutely petrified, on a man I had no idea really about, and went and spent the weekend with him. And, and we didn't have sex, but we did have lots of exchanges and talks about sex that we'd had in the past kind of thing. I mean, you know, uh, yeah, we did. And from that point onwards, we started— I mean, it was never imagined that I would— I really wanted somebody down the road. I didn't actually want to live with someone, but I did want somebody down the road, not someone that, you know, I have to drive, but, you know, It is magical having this relationship. I mean, it does really suit both of us to be between the city, the deep city and everything that goes on here and the deep countryside where it's, you know, it's two extremes and we're quite, both of us quite extreme people. And so in that way it suits us. But there is the getting old bit. Anyway, I'll let you speak, otherwise I'll take up the whole hour. Yeah.

So, you know, I suppose the big question that everybody asks and I is is the most obvious one is how do you maintain your emotional connection when you're not physically together?

Yeah, and we do that by, by, I mean, we're mostly, and, and, you know, one of the questions that people ask first of all is how often do you see him? Yeah, sure. Sometimes I don't see him for a few weeks or a month or more. And but we do keep in contact with one another and not by phone. Quite often I have to make a real effort to have a phone call with him, but we just text each other a lot, message each other a lot during the day. And I guess, you know, I've written about this. I mean, we, we do hold each other strongly. I mean, you know, we've been— this is our 12th year together. We do know each other quite deeply now. We have been through some very challenging situations. I mean, this living apart together means that we have no— there is no commitment other than our own commitment. So it means that we are challenged in that kind of way, you know, but it means that when we do it, we— it's because we want to do it kind of thing.

So yeah, when you do face challenges in your relationship, obviously if you're not in the same place, that can be difficult in itself. Do you find that sometimes there's, you know, difficulties arise when you're not together and how you get over those.

Yeah, and there are things that sometimes, especially in the earlier years— really not so much now— but in the earlier years, we used to, you know, mistranslate messages, not, you know, get things wrong. And then we would have to have a, you know, a Zoom or a something of, you know, a call. And I mean, what we have learned and what Asanga is the first man in my life. And so, you know, this started when I was 16, he was 70, that can actually go there in terms of vulnerability and really look at what's going on underneath. And he's actually got better at doing that over the years. I think we both have. And we're both more— we're both quite fiery. So we might, you know, go But we're also both now quite good at saying sorry. So we've honed our, you know, not an easy sorry, a sorry that is a genuine kind of sorry. So that all helps. It really does help.

Yeah. And I suppose the thing about when you aren't in it, when you aren't living together, when you aren't in that kind of domestic coziness, is that you do have to step up in your communication skills because it's much more difficult when you're physically present. You kind of have body language, you know what I mean? You have other ways of communicating with each other that say a bit about what your intention is. Whereas when sometimes, as you say, with texting or with things, things can just get misinterpreted. You know, you do have to get better at that, I suspect.

Yeah, yeah, you do. But I do think that just because we've got to know each other, you know, so there have been times like during COVID when we have— when we spent— and even when we were doing celebrating our 70th and 80th, when I spent, you know, a few months with him up in Wales because it's easier for me to spend longer times up there. And in those times, those have been quite difficult times because you know, I'm on his terrain and that means, you know, not being on my terrain. It means I'm not in control. So that's been, you know, that was very challenging for me and sometimes very unhappy for me. But during those times, I learned a lot about the rhythm of his house and how he did things and, you know, what the fire needs, you know, the logs me in their wheelbarrow because— but my fear has always been around his property that I will end up just being subsumed by all the things that need doing. But now I— what happens is I just kind of recognize what actually needs doing and I hone into that and don't look at all the other stuff that is out there.

Yeah, because it's, it's quite it's quite a basic way that he lives. And he lives— and I know that he lives incredibly frugally, so, you know, there's not that—

what's a new boiler though, Suzanne Noble?

Oh my God, that's a big, big news.

The man who's got a new boiler, come on, you know what that's like.

I do, I do. Getting a new boiler is very exciting, I have to say. So, you know, you're obviously quite an independent person, I know that about you, um, but you're also very committed to him. And I, and I'm— I'd like to know, like, how you balance that commitment and that independence.

Yeah, I try. And so, you know, I'm doing an MA in poetry at the moment, poetry writing at the moment. And so, um, so this is just an instance of what I tried— how I tried to organize myself over Christmas. So I've got a grand son in London, who I'm also committed to one day a week looking after. But I had these things to do for my MA. I've got work, I've got advantages of age. But I, I spent a few weeks doing all of that stuff so I could spend 2 weeks with Asanga and be really with him. So that's what I try and do. I try and kind of make it so that when I am with him, I'm not kind of immersed in all the other stuff that I'm doing. And I have to say, he has been— I mean, one of the reasons our partnership, our relationship survives is because he is very— he is just very enthusiastic really about all the things that I do. So he doesn't see it as a threat to his time with me. He just sees that I like doing these things and want to do them. And he equally is doing— like at the moment I'm doing an MA and he's wild about sketching. So he's doing a sketching course every in a really disciplined way and is going to start oil painting. I mean, he's recovering from a hip operation, but he is doing his sketching in the way that I'm doing my MA, really. So, so it's great that we can do, you know, we can kind of, um, counterpoint each other in that way and also support one another. So that works really well.

And I know that I think it's also important, as you said, he's got his own outside interests, so he's not like focused just entirely on you to deliver him all that, you know, he wants in his life, whether it's, you know, he was a bit more like that in the beginning.

But I think, you know, he had, he had a more traditional— he was married for 30 years, so he had more traditional expectations. But I think over the years he's done— he's, he's got into it himself, you know, the freedom of it. Plus, you know, he, he lives with his daughter, which is also another thing that has changed over the last couple of years, but that has actually enhanced our relationship really because he's needed to be looked after during a hip operation and afterwards, and that's been quite a lot. So that, you know, I have deeply appreciated that that situation exists as well. And, you know, he's not on his own in the middle of Yeah, the sheep.

Yeah. And the— and I know he still is doing climbing and he's got climbing friends and, you know, so he's got a bit of a community. And I think it's always more attractive in any partner when they don't rely on you for absolutely everything in their life. And then— and a man who's got mates or people with whom he can share his other interests is, is always again, so is more attractive. So just for the benefit of our listeners, you know, you recently celebrated— well, a couple of years ago you celebrated your decade-long relationship. Would you like to share with everyone how you celebrated that particular milestone?

Yes. So I am a bit of a celebrator of, you know, birthdays and in general I am. So I knew it was a lot to take on, but I thought we could— I wanted to celebrate Asanga's land because he has this beautiful land around him that's lush and beautiful. Rainy, yes, I know, but it is lush. And so I suggested that we did a mini festival, a weekend festival for our 70th and 80th. And probably, you know, I was aware that we probably wouldn't do it again, that it was probably a one-off. And so I did organize people to come from all over the place, including the south of France, for this weekend. And, you know, it was incredible. It was— it did feel like a fantastic community. It was a community in action. I had to get a bloody great marquee, stretch marquee. I love the marquee. And people decorating. Suzanne Noble organized a cabaret. I asked for performance rather than, than gifts, and people spent loads of time doing their performances. Suzanne Noble was in charge presenting it. There was a feast, there was toasting. It was our favorite thing, even more than the ceremony. We had a witnessing ceremony, really. It was a ceremony that witnessed our relationship. It was just to acknowledge, okay, we've done this, and that's a pretty big thing to do. And that, that was moving in that people stood up. I wasn't really expecting that people stood up and talked about our relationship, which was actually very moving. I love that we were in this amazing fairy dell amid oaks and there was a violin playing and this Ghanese xylophone. Oh my God, I love that. It was all floating down. It nearly was off because it was fucking raining.

The weather was terrible.

The weather was really challenging. But you know, the feast of it. But our favourite, our very favourite thing was doing Desert Island Discs. I have to recommend this to anyone to do Desert Island Discs. So we did it together and we told stories around it and a couple of our friends interviewed us and organised the music and we had people, it was on Saturday morning, we had people dancing in the field to, you know, to you know, um, um, dancing, you know, um, ABBA's Dancing Queen, all of those ones, Prince. Oh, it was— and we came together at the end and we were all holding hands and all crying. I mean, it was my favorite bit, totally. I absolutely loved it. That was an amazing weekend. I can't tell you how much effort I put into that. It was a huge, huge, huge, huge— but I enjoyed it too. I was getting plates from the charity shop I mean, we had to sit people down. About 80 people sat down and had a meal. So yeah, it was a big thing.

I mean, I think for me it was like your relationship up until that point was, you know, obviously I've met Asanga, we've hung out together. I'm, you know, I, I'm, I've obviously known you guys for a long time, but it wasn't until I did the drive.

Oh, you realize, yeah, it's like, wow, because I'm not a driver, right, anymore.

I used to be, but I'm anymore. And like I said, I don't travel long distances from— for— except when I go on holiday. So to go on that drive, which was— I mean, aside from the fact it was, it was a very long drive, but putting the hours aside, it was, it was quite a spectacular drive. I mean, it's— it goes through some of the most spectacular countryside. I mean, you're stopping because sheep are crossing the road and there's rolling hills. And I mean, some of it is just like a picture postcard. It's just quite incredible. But it did make me think, you know, this is, this is a real commitment to doing this. I mean, and you both have to be, you know, very committed to each other. But of course, you know, my next thought was, well, of course, we're all getting older. And what happens when driving 6 hours really, it just starts to become really challenging. Like, you know, obviously you're— he's in his 80s now, you're in your 70s. I mean, have you talked about what that might look like?

I mean, we have talked about it, but we haven't actually thought about what is going to happen. I mean, because sometimes I think that maybe it— we will just gently break away from one another as it becomes harder. I do think that sometimes, but then But then again, you know, we do something together and then our commitment becomes even more. And, you know, he's had his hip op, he's had his pacemaker, and he's coming— he's driving down next week in his electric car, you know. So it does seem sometimes daunting, but it just hasn't actually become that yet. I mean, we've— I mean, it is going to be challenging. I mean, I guess, you know, I don't know what the solution is because the local train goes to Bangor. And that's about an hour, well, 40 minutes from him. So he'd have to come and, uh, I guess there's something around that. I don't know. I've always thought that maybe I go up for longer times as we get, get older. Maybe that is true. I will go. I do feel very comfortable in his house these days, and I, you know, and I've got friends up there. I belong to the tennis club. That's the ultimate of my, you know, ultimate indication of my commitment is that I belong to the local tennis club and I've got friends in the tennis club and things. So, yeah, you know, but it's still unknown. I mean, what we didn't know, we could navigate this, a hip operation and a pacemaker, and we navigate the fact that I'm still into traveling. And now I found a traveling, you know, if I'm traveling friends and he doesn't want to travel, I mean, we didn't know. You don't know if you can navigate these things until you do, but we're still navigating, so we'll see.

Yeah, and, and I think that, as you know, as I know you're trying to slow down a little bit in terms of your workload, it then gives you more opportunity, as you said, to go and stay up there, to spend more time there, and to just have a little bit more of a relaxed way of living. So, yeah, maybe there is that possibility. I mean, one of the things that struck me in my conversation with Laurie Stone was that part of the rationale for her making this decision to marry her partner was purely practical in terms of there was some financial benefit for her in terms of being able to collect additional kind of like pension benefits and stuff like that. There's also— real practical considerations, which I learned in my previous relationship, when your partner actually does need to be hospitalized for long periods of time. And as a partner, sometimes it is more challenging to have access to medical records.

And, um, he's got his daughter living with him, and that's going to be an ongoing situation. It's not I think it's going to change. She— because she will inherit the house.

Yeah.

And she's preparing for that. And it's because it's quite a challenge. So she really— I mean, I think we can collaborate around that. I can see that her and I— because when he first had his hip operation, there were things that, you know, we had— we kind of negotiated together. So I guess that that's kind of what will happen because it's not— and also, you know, it is You know, we are separate financially. We're not going to, because she's going to get his and my son's going to get mine. Like, yeah, no, there isn't that. But you know, there was— there have been times in the past where I thought, my God, because there is no legal— there's nothing that binds us. Yeah. And you know, if he died, for instance, would I have any say in it at all? But now I think probably you know, me and his daughter will get together and it'll be— I mean, I'm sure we'll talk about it at some time, you know. Yeah, yeah.

It's just there are, you know, what I learned is that there are some practical benefits to being married, even if it's not something that you really want to do, just from the point of view of how, you know, certain things.

Anyway, we will never get married, I can guarantee. And we won't.

And I don't really know the answer to this, but— well, I know some of the answer to this, but how do your friends and family, uh, view your relationship?

I think my friends and family, and especially my family, really love Asanga. They call him— my niece calls him Asanga Banga, and he's part of our— you know, I mean, he's part of our family WhatsApp, so None of the other partners of like, you know, my son's partners are not on our family WhatsApp. And Asanga is— I mean, it really is because he doesn't really have any family. He has his daughter, but he doesn't have any extended family. So my family have become his extended family. And I think they all like it. I mean, we did nearly split up this year over And I think my family was slightly devastated. I was like, oh my God, they're all going mad.

Yeah, it's terrible when they— when your family actually like your partner better than they like you, right? But I know that's not the case in this circumstance. And how has being in this relationship with Asanga influenced your own personal growth and perspective on love? At this stage of life?

Yeah, I think it has changed the sort, you know, I mean, Asanga and I do have a different kind of love in a way. It's kind of a, it does feel like, I hate to say this, that's almost 72, it does actually feel like a kind of mature love. I mean, mature in terms of the emotional intelligence within it. I mean, we It does feel like that. It doesn't feel like this crazy, you know, and it's changed across time. You know, when we first met each other, Asanga was 70 and I was 60, and it was more of a kind of rampant relationship. And it has mellowed with time. And also, yeah, I think with him, as I've said previously here. It's just we've learned to be vulnerable with each other, that's all. Um, and that has really— and we can be silent, actually. You know, I'm quite noisy with all my friends and things, but actually with the— you know how, like, I used to be really scornful of seeing the couples in restaurants who never, you know, weren't speaking to one another? Yeah, because you just think they've got nothing to talk about. But actually now I realize that actually it's just incredibly peaceful for me to actually be actually quite quiet with this anger quite a lot of the time. It doesn't— I don't need to— we don't need to speak all the time. And that's pretty amazing.

Yeah. And I have to ask you, as we're coming towards the end of the show, you recently, in addition to living apart together, You were sleeping apart for a long time, and we are Sex Advice for Seniors, so I wanted to ask you about your recent decision to actually share a bed. I never thought I'd hear that ever.

Yes, me neither, me neither. So sleeping together— sleeping is one of my things. It's an obsession because I don't sleep very well. So I have written pieces for Advantage is that VHA piece called The Joy of Sleeping Apart. And, you know, because it feels— when you do that at the beginning, it feels slightly shameful that you, you know, somehow you're meant to sleep— you're a couple, and even we live apart, now we're gonna sleep apart. That's really bad. Um, you know, but for years we've been sleeping apart because he sleeps longer than me. He often sleeps earlier than me. You know, I use the mornings for reading and writing. They just work. And I don't sleep well, so— and I snore, actually. That— God knows how he survives that. Um, but I just had a little inkling in my head. I'm actually writing about this as for my first piece in my own Substack.

Oh yes, we must promote that.

So, when we were in Yorkshire with my family before Christmas, I just suggested that we try out one of the bigger beds when some of the younger couples, meaning Marlon and Lina, left. I just thought, I don't know, let's try out that, because one of the times when we have been able to sleep successfully together is, for instance, when we're in India. Big bed, I'm really relaxed because I'm on holiday. And so we did that. And anyway, I'm in England, and I just had a fantastic sleep. And it was just really— I thought, oh my God, I just slept really well with this anger. Oh my God. And so I thought I'd try it again. He has got a big bed in his Welsh farmhouse. So I said, okay, I'm going to try it out whilst I'm here. Yeah, and I did, and I just slept the best. So it just interests me from a point of view, and it was snuggly and nice. We watched sunsets and we had breakfast in bed. We haven't done that for absolutely ages. We watched sunrises together, we snuggled together, we did that kind of intimate talking in the morning. It was really, really nice. Yeah, it was lovely.

Yeah, that is nice. And, you know, if I could just take all of those little moments that you just spoke about and just have all of those and then just keep the sleep part for me, because like you, I just can't. I can't sleep well with other people.

But, you know, I sleep well with myself.

You've shown me that never say never. Never say never, because you just don't know. You just don't know what's going to happen. And, you know, sometimes, as you say, you you meet someone and then the sleeping together works really well, or you go back to sleeping with someone and works really well. Look, anything can happen at any time in our lives, as we know.

I think it's important as we get older that— to keep that in mind, that, you know, that it's not— you know, it— we do get a little bit more set in our ways, a little bit more occupied with health and all that stuff, but, you know, don't let overtake everything. Be open and try it out. I mean, I'm really enjoying it. I'm laughing about it, but I'm— I'm— next week he's coming down here, so I'm gonna try sleeping with him down here. Let's see what happens.

That's a much smaller bed. I think that's quite adventurous of you.

Oh, see, I can always go to my other one.

That's true. Rose, it's been lovely to speak to you, and thank you so much, and good luck on your new Substack. We will be promoting that. What's it called again?

The Spirited Seventy-Something.

The Spirited Seventy-Something on Substack.

Martin Nettie. Lovely day. You too.