Episode 133: Interview with The Gen X Sexologist

This week's episode has been sponsored by Oh My Bod, shifting the evolution of pleasure. Hi, this is Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. God, today is very exciting because I've got somebody that is coming at us all the way from Washington, D.C. And I said, I'm just not going to— I'm just not even going to go there because we, you know, what's the point of talking about sex even when you've got someone who's in the heartland of chaos? But anyway, enough of that. That's all I'm going to say. She's in Washington. She's freaking out like the rest of us. It's all fine. Renee Yvonne is a sex-certified counselor. And I love the name of her business, which is The Gen Sexologist. So she helps Gen Xers and baby boomers reignite the spark in their relationship, rediscover intimacy, passion, and pleasure. And I know that this is going to be so familiar to so many people that are currently navigating sexless relationships, because I hear from so many people that are currently trying to do that. Low libido, same old, same old in the bedroom. And she helps them try and create more playful, more practical, more heartfelt, more wonderful solutions so that they can get out of the rut that they were in and just have a really good time in the sack, or in my case, on a deserted beach in the Grand Canaries. Why not, right? As I learned, why not? It was actually quite uncomfortable. I wouldn't— if you want to reignite your intimate life, going to a rocky beach with lots of pebbles on the ground and stuff, if you're 64 years old, it's not that great an idea. It sounds good, but it's not. Anyway, I know that you have, Renee, so welcome. I know that you have some experience yourself of navigating this whole circumstance around sexless relationships. Do you want to tell me a little bit about that?

And yeah, that's actually how I got started in this business. So first of all, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here, Suzanne Noble. So I started out, I was in a relationship with somebody for about 6 years, and it was a sexless relationship. I always like to tell people sexless is defined as 10 or fewer times per year. It's not like never having sex, but it's definitely not having enough sex. And I didn't know what was going on. Because as women, I think we're taught that men always want sex. And so when your partner doesn't want it, you're like, what's wrong with me? Something must be wrong with me. So I was taking all of these classes, I was running around taking classes on, like, you know, how to have an orgasm and blowjobs. And, you know, cockworshipping. Like, I was just all over the place. I was taking all kinds of classes. And I would keep coming back to him, like, eager to show him what I learned. And he just didn't seem to care. I was like, what? This is insane. So I went to— I started going to this women's group. And I finally kind of admitted what was going on because it was embarrassing. I was like, I don't know what's happening, but let me share this with somebody. And it turned out there were quite a few women in the group that were going through the same thing. Women don't talk about it. The way men talk about it. Men are like, "I haven't had sex in 6 days. I'm going to go find somebody." Whereas women are like, "I don't know what's going on, and maybe it's me." And so, in talking about it and just kind of listening to the women, I realized this was a huge issue. And I decided to go back to school. But in the process of that, I talked to my partner while I was in school, and I realized that One of the things we hadn't done was communicated about our wants, needs, and desires. I never talked about it. I just assumed he wanted sex as much as I did.

Yeah, yeah.

And it turned out he just didn't. And his, um, the reasoning was he had, um, he was, uh, he was suffering from depression and had been for a couple decades, and he's been on a medication that was lowering his sex drive, and he never considered that that was it, and neither had I. Wow. So even though I'd worked pharmacy. And I knew this. I never, I never put that together. And so, um, in that we had that discussion, but I realized, like, after we talked, I said, you know what, he's never going to meet me here, and I can't keep trying to meet him here. This isn't going to work. And so we parted. Like, we're still nice to each other. Like, we're not— we don't hang out, but, you know, it's not the type of thing where we're like, I can't stand you because you left me. We had to really just come to grips with it and say You know, we're not sexually compatible in this way. So it's— but it does— it's one of those things that it affects you emotionally and mentally, because you're just thinking, something's wrong with me. I don't know what's going on. And I don't know how to get my partner involved. And so it can be very demoralizing in a lot of ways when your partner doesn't want you sexually.

Yeah, and I think that, as you said, you know, look, when I, I eventually stopped having sex with my husband— this was a lot, I got divorced a long time ago— but, you know, part of the reason why I did that was because I just didn't feel, like you said, that he could meet me where I wanted to be. And his discomfort around sex and my lack of discomfort ultimately collided, right? And we didn't talk at all. Like you said, we didn't have any communication about it. So eventually, when things kind of eventually, you know, boiled over and it was— and it— and I just said, look, this isn't working anymore, we gotta— and we actually started having a discussion. I realized this guy, I didn't know him at all in an intimate way. I didn't really understand what was going on in his brain. Like you said, we just didn't talk about that stuff. And I think, as you said, that's a super common experience for people, especially when they're younger and they're with somebody for a significant period of time. As long as the parts are kind of fitting together and it's all working, you're like, oh, this is good, right? I'm not going to ask you about your fantasies. I'm not going to ask you if you've got a preference for one gender or another. You seem to be into me at the moment. So I'm just going to assume that, like, you know, you're a heterosexual person or whatever, when they might, they might have completely different ideas going on in their heads, completely different, right? But, but yeah, so, you know, you went off, you become a certified sex counselor. That seems like quite a big— what were you doing before then? Was it, was it something totally different?

Transportation. I can still work in transportation.

Fair enough.

Yeah. And I love it. Like, I do this. It works out perfectly because most of the people I have to meet with, they meet in the evening. So I'm like, I can have my day job and then I'll do all the fun stuff at night. And I, you know, they're both fun jobs. So, yes, I do. I work in transportation and I got into this and I really enjoy it. Like, it's, it's It's awesome. The talks I get to give, the counseling I get to do with people is— it's, it's life-changing for so many people. And that's one of the things I like.

Yeah. I mean, you've mentioned the shame and the embarrassment that you felt. So how do you think other people can overcome those feelings to talk about their challenges?

And so when I'm working with couples, I'm always amazed. And I don't know why, because I was in a relationship and didn't do it either. But I'm always amazed at couples who haven't talked to each other about what their fantasies and desires really are. And so there's a couple of things I do in session with people. One of them is I have a yes, no, maybe list, and they each take it. There's different levels to like some of the more vanilla than others. But I have them go through the list and they check down, they go through this list of sexual activities. And they choose like, you know, yes, I would do this. No, I wouldn't. Maybe I could be. And then whether they would rather give or be the giver or the receiver of that activity. And then I bring them back together and they go through the list and they're always surprised. Like, they're like, I didn't know you wanted to try that, or I didn't know you would like to do that. And so it's a great way to get them to talk without getting them to, like, have that conversation that feels so heavy. The other thing I do, and I love to do this, this is a whole session by itself, but I do something called The name has changed. But when I first started, it was called the Graphic Sex Project. It was designed by a woman named Jennifer Beeman. And it's now called BioGraphs. But there are these little blocks and they— each color is 7 to 10 different colors. Each block can stand for something, whatever you want it to be. So it could be, this is oral sex, this is intercourse, anal sex, foreplay, touching, kissing. So you You name each block, and then you build out this kind of like art installation of what you want sex to look like or what you don't. So sometimes I'll have a couple come together and I say, you know, map out— I'll explain the whole thing. I'm like, map out a sexual experience you had that you never want to have again. And then they do that. And they're like, you know, it was— there was no foreplay. It was just straight, you know, straight to the sex. There's no cuddling, you know. And then they come together and their partners learn like, We did that yesterday. And then I have them do one. And I say, okay, let's do this. Like, tell me a sexual experience that'd be your dream experience. And then they do that. And so it may be like, I want a lot of foreplay, a lot of kissing. I wish there was more massaging, more touching. I want to be flogged. I want you to, you know, I want more anal sex, like, and they find out again, without having that deep conversation, they find out what their partner would really like to have. And now they have this, like, roadmap of it. It's like, oh, okay, this is, this is what they're looking for. But again, we don't tend to have those conversations. We just kind of assume that, yeah, you know what people want, or we're doing it based on like, the last partners we had, you know, I've definitely heard men say like, you know, all the women I've been with, you know, love having sex with me, and I make them all have orgasms. Like, that is It's just not true. Bullshit. I'm not trying to bust your bubble. That's just not true. There's no way. There's no way that's happening.

Like you said, a lot of it is about how we can do this without attributing blame to the other person, without making them feel ashamed. And as you said, just open up the conversation. I've heard about the tick boxing, like yes, maybe, perhaps, no list before, but I think it's such— I always think what a great tool because It opens your mind to possibilities. It tells you what is definitely off the table, right? And you haven't had to have that discussion, which is like, no, fuck off, I'm never doing that.

Yeah, right.

You have to say it. It's like it's on the list. It's a hard no. And a hard no is a hard no. That's it. So I think, I think for me, those sorts of tools that mean that we don't have to actually talk too much about it to start with, but opens up the conversation are really great. And, you know, look, there are lots of people that are going through sexless relationships. How do you help to support people that are going through sexless relationships? Because as you said yourself, there's a lot of shame around that.

It's a lot of shame. So, so there's, there's several conversations that, that we have to have. So the first one is I want to find out— I'm not a doctor, so I want to find out, is this something medically going on? Like, are we not having sex because of, you know, is there an illness? Is it chronic pain? Are you going through menopause and you just, you need a, you need your hormones adjusted? What's happening there physically? So sometimes it's that.

Yeah.

The other one is there may be some built-up resentment and people aren't having sex because of that. And people underestimate that. Like, you know, I'll talk to couples and sometimes You know, one partner thinks they're doing a ton of stuff in a relationship. And the other one is like, I'm exhausted at the end of the day. Like, I just don't— I'm not, I'm not not having sex with you because I don't love you. I don't have anything left to give.

Yeah.

So sometimes it has to be like, what can this person take off their plate to make this sex easier? Sometimes it hurts. Yeah. And they don't know how to, they don't know how to overcome that. It could be that they need lube. It could be that they need dilators to, to, to open up the vaginal canal more to make it easier for intercourse. And then sometimes, you know, you have to say that sometimes they're just bored. Like, you know, for, for most men, if you're in a heterosexual relationship, Most men are having an orgasm no matter what. Women, it's like a, eh, I might, I might not. And so if I know that every time I go into this, it's the same thing. He's going to kiss me here, he's going to pinch my nipples, he's going to rub me on my clit, he's going to slide in, 3 seconds later it's over. Like, what am I getting excited about? Like, I can't get excited about that when I know that's the same thing every single time we have sex. There's no variety to it. So sometimes it's just straight boredom. And I know that's That's hard for some people to hear because they think they're like, I'm doing it. She's like, yeah, you're doing it. Like, you know, you're laying there like, I got this.

I mean, you know, I— and I suspect as well, going back to the libido thing, it kind of depends on where— on how much of a priority this is in your life, right? I mean, you know, It's not just men who— people sort of assume that men are the ones who are always driving it and that the women are going, in some cases, it's a responsibility, I'm gonna do it, but I don't really, I'm not that bothered. And I know that especially some of the postmenopausal women that I've spoken to and some of the men that I've heard from, it's like, she's not interested anymore. You know, she's saying she doesn't want it. I'm still up for it and things. And I think, well, you know, arousal patterns change in later life. Like, what are you doing to make her feel comfortable? Like, are you expecting that the same old same old is going to deliver you into the same place which you've been happy about? But maybe, as you said, your partner is like gone, thank God I actually have a valid excuse now to say I don't want to do this anymore, right? And I think there's a lot of people that I hear from who probably don't really want to acknowledge that that's what's going on, right? And unfortunately for me, I think it's the bigger issue is how do you then take this person who probably is quite resentful who is possibly saying, I'm bored, but doesn't want her husband to hear that because everything else is kind of going good, you know, like they got a nice life. How do you— and I'm speaking now for the man— how do you get him to go, I, I think that we should do something about this?

Yeah, that's a good one because that's usually the one that I have to kind of like convince to try something different. Because I think a lot of times the woman in the relationship is— she's trying different things, or she's saying it. He's not necessarily listening sometimes. But this is where— this is probably the time when they're like, okay, we got to do something. They come to someone like me, who's going to— who's neutral, who's not on anybody's side. I just want to see you all have orgasms and be happy because it makes the world a better place. And so And so sometimes when it's something like that and I'm telling the guy, like, you're going to have to try something new. And maybe one of the things I use— and this isn't mine, but there is a website. I'm trying to think what the name of it is.

Oh, it'll come to you afterwards.

It will come to me later. But the woman who does it, she was on Love, Sex Goop on Netflix, and she did— her name is Jia— and she did this blueprint and had people take these quizzes and found out where people's— it's kind of like a sexual love language, like where people's sexual love language is. So if you're a person, if you're a guy who's like, I'm the kind of guy who just wants to get to it, have sex, intercourse, get naked, great. But you find out that your partner— well, that could be either one, but you're one and you find out your partner is more kinky. They want to be tied up, they want flogging, they want a little spanking sometimes, or they're sensuous, they want the baths, they want the candles, and you think that's a waste of time. Like, you're looking at it like, why do I have to do all that? We've been married for 5 years. You know how to take a bath, like, you know, like, why do I need to do this? But what you're doing is you're missing out on building up that pleasure level that gets her to the point where she's like, okay, I'm ready to have sex with you because you've met this need that I have. And so I do that with couples too, because I realized that that's one of the things that it's not necessarily that you're mismatch. Now, the libido can definitely be off, but it's not necessarily that. It may be just that we're not speaking the same language. Like, I'm not turned on when you walk by and slap me on the ass. I am turned on though when you, you know, put handcuffs on me and tie me to the bed.

Yeah. And I think as well that, you know, one of the things that struck me is that What I'm hearing from you is that it's often the woman who's like, I want to do something about this. I want us to be in a better place. And she drags the guy along, right? But, but what's stopping men from just going, you know what, I'll go to this on my own. You know what, you— I'm hearing you and I'm, I'm hearing what you're saying. You're not interested. But I want to see if, if we can do something about this. So I'm just going to go on my own and see if I'm— if I can get some good ideas and then I'm going to bring them back. You know, and let's— and, and let's see what happens there, right?

I would love to know what's stopping me. Like, I, I've been doing this for 5 years and I probably had less— I think I've had 9 male clients in 5 years, like, that come on their own. They're not being dragged there by a woman. And, and some of it is— and so, so some of it is— I, I don't want to say pride and ego But some of it is that, and I want to put it in a more positive— I'm going to try to put it in a more positive light. I think what happens is, this is what I've had men tell me in the class, we really aren't taught about sex and pleasure and sexuality at all. It's not like your mom or dad sits you down, it's like, this is how you do this, right? No. So you look at porn, and you learn really bad habits. And I always tell people, I'm like, I'm not against porn. I am against what porn— the habits you learn from porn, which is— you just, you know, you get naked, the woman's hot, you know, everybody's body is super perfect. Like, it's— that's just not reality. And so you learn that from porn. Porn typically isn't designed to showcase the woman's pleasure and orgasm. It's really designed for the guy's pleasure. So if you're learning sex, if you're learning sex that way, then you kind of think you got it. And then you couple it with your friends, and your uncle or somebody who also doesn't know what they're doing because they learned it from porn. So you have this wonderful mix of knowledge here that you're doing on every single person. And if you never read a book, if you never take a class, or say, you know what, maybe there's just something I don't know and I can learn it, or I need to at least experiment differently with every woman I'm with. I can't do the same thing with Kathy that I did with I did with Renee, that I did with Cole. Like, at least if you do that, you're more open to it. But I think it's some of that. It's just like, I learned this thing. I think it works. I haven't really checked in to see if it does or not. And nobody complained, so I guess it's all right.

Yeah. And I think that's the main thing is that the nobody checks in, right? The nobody checks in is the main thing. Because if you're not checking in and going, 'How does this feel? Do you enjoy this?' And you're not, as a woman, comfortable enough to be able to say, 'Well, actually, can you just move your finger a little bit to the left instead of over to the right? Because the left is the side that I prefer to the right side.' Right. And I don't know what's going on with men at the moment, but all the men I've encountered, like, in the past— I'd say in the past couple of years they, they just all want to make me squirt. This is it, right? Like, and no matter how often I tell them that squirting is not an orgasm, right? It feels nice. It's an emission of fluid. It looks kind of cool and kinky, right? And I get all of that. And don't get me wrong, it feels nice, feels good, but it's not the same as a clitoral orgasm. Like, It doesn't matter how many times I say that. It's like porn has created this stupid idea. And they're like, yeah, but it's good, right? It feels good. I'm like, it feels like having a really good pee, right? Like, that's what it feels like. It's not— it's a release. It's quite nice. It looks cool. Whatever. I get it. But I, I personally prefer, like, the stuff that goes on with the little button personally. So just every, everyone. And I mean, men are learning. And I, and I often thought it was just young men who were learning these terrible habits. But no, it's all men of all ages that watch porn.

Yeah.

And this sort of thing now, in my youth, No man, can I just tell you, no guy ever tried to make me squirt in my 20s, ever.

No, it wasn't a thing.

Because we didn't have porn. And even in porn, 1970s porn, it wasn't a thing. But now it's a thing. And so not only are they learning like bad habits, which they think are like, you know, I'm the king, I can do this. But it's like, you don't even know what female pleasure is, you know. It's like, it's just, it's reached a real pinnacle for me in how bad this has gotten in terms of all this. Anytime, so I'm like, oh God, here we go again. You know, like the, their, I'm gonna make you squirt thing. It's like, oh, fuck's sake.

Anyway, that is, that is the thing. I spent a lot of time going over female pleasure anatomy when I'm working. With couples, with men. I teach a whole class on that because I need them to understand like how the female body works, where stuff is, and how to massage it. Like, I have this thing about like, I show them a clitoris. I have a— I have all these props. So I have this prop and I pull it out. And I'm like, you know, this is, this is the size I don't know if I'm going to find the other one, but I have a—

We're not video recording, by the way, so no one's going to see it.

Oh, you're not doing video. Okay. I have this clitoris, and I show people the clitoris, and I'm like, it's all of this, right? And I'm like, so you're like— and this thing when you're doing this DJ thing drives— it hurts at some point. So I'm like, please stop rubbing my clit like a DJ. So there's so many things that you can do. So I show them like, you know, take your two fingers and run it down, you know, the inside of the lips of the vulva. Like I go through the whole thing and they're just like, wow, I had no idea. And that's, you know, and it's fine because there's women that don't know that, but it's also, I wanna teach them that 'cause I'm like, you're doing things that don't feel good. And we're trying to protect your feelings. And so we're not telling you it doesn't feel good. And then we send you out to the next woman unschooled. And that's just wrong. Like, it's just wrong. We're not doing anybody any favors. We're just like, "I'm not doing that again, but I'm not going to tell him it was bad." And then he goes to the next girl, does the same thing. And we're like, "Okay, we got to stop this." So that's another one of my goals. We have to stop this. I need to teach you what— what this looks like and what you're dealing with so that when you touch it, it feels good to that person.

Exactly. And if it doesn't feel good, that you can ask them, does it feel good? And they say no, actually, can you do it this way?

Yes.

So Renee, you've said the world needs more sexually satisfied people. What's the connection between individual sexual satisfaction and broader social or emotional well-being?

Oh boy, I really truly believe, like, I know when I was in a sexless relationship, I was mean. I got to the point where I was just grouchy. And it's the kind of grouchy where you're like, "Why is the ice cold?" Like, you're just that irrational grouchy, right? And so, but I know that when you have sex, you have orgasms, it releases endorphins, it releases oxytocin, which just naturally makes you happier, more pleasant. You have that cuddle hormone, you're getting You're getting all this feel good, the dopamine. And so it just makes people nicer people. They're happier when they're not, you know, when they're— I mean, there's definitely people like, I don't want to negate that there's people who are asexual and they're just totally fine not having sex. Yeah. But there's a lot of us who are like, I want to be close to you. And it doesn't always have to be— one of the things I talk about, especially with Gen Xers and baby boomers as we get older, it doesn't always have to be penetrative sex. It can be just pleasure. So it could be oral, it could be massage, it may be a little bit of kink. Like, I just did a workshop on that and how kink can be that thing that also brings people to orgasm and brings up pleasure. And so it doesn't have to be just penetration, but it needs— but we typically as humans need some type of contact, and we were— our bodies were designed for that pleasure. And I find that when people when they're, when they're having sex, even if it's with themselves, even if they're having— they're masturbating, there's just more— they're more in tune with themselves. They're more in tune with their bodies. It makes them more confident, especially when you can talk about what you need. Like, there's nothing— there's nothing like telling your partner, this is what I need, and they hear you and listen to you. That gives you that confidence, like, my partner listened to me. I can tell them this other thing I need, and they're listening to me. And it builds your confidence, which then spills over into your regular life because you're like, okay, I have this confidence to do this. People walk differently when they've had sex. They just— their skin is brighter. Like, it's a whole thing. So, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, somebody once asked me a few years ago, they're like, oh, you know, I hate it when people are like, oh, you look young for your age and all that stuff. But somebody said something to me and they're like, oh, I didn't think you were that old. Like, you know, what's your secret? And I went, oh, I just get, I just get laid a lot.

It's a great answer. I'm definitely going to say that. I love it.

You know, makes you happy and keeps you, keeps your skin looking good. Um, so yeah, so, um, because we're coming up to our closing, our closing thing. What's the most rewarding part of your work as the Gen Sexologist?

Oh man, I think the most rewarding part is working with men or working with a couple who something unlocks for them. And they— it's like, like, like I just talked about the clitoris, like they see that and they're like, Oh, or I show them a toy, or I show them some type of, some type of technique. Like, I like floggers. And so I'll show them like, you know, you don't have to like whip the person, but you can use it to just kind of drag it across their skin. And it creates this sensation. I love when people expand their toolbox for sex like that. That really, that really gets me going because I'm like, okay, they're out of just the missionary. And doggy style. They're thinking, there's all this stuff I can do to please my partner. So that's, that's probably my, my best part. And I love working with men who come in and want to learn more about a woman's body. Like, I, I just, I lay it all out. I'm like, let me tell you everything.

We should do— I'll tell you what we should do. You just inspired me. What we should do is um, like a little, like a little webinar, right? You probably already do this, right? Which is like sex advice for seniors, understanding a woman's body 101, right?

So, so like, and you've got your little clitoris toy and everything, and you're like, here, I've got a whole arsenal, arsenal, full arsenal that I'm, I'm planning to do that because I really— and I think I actually am thinking that maybe more men would take the class if it were on demand. And not like they could just take it when they want to. And they don't have to tell people like, I don't want to tell people, I don't know what I'm— I don't know what I'm doing. But, but I get it. Like, if you— if that's kind of the male culture, like, I'm supposed to know, and you don't know, then where do you go to find out?

I mean, look, we could do Understanding a Man's Body 101 as well. I mean, you know, like, I didn't— I didn't— took me a long time to work out, like, all the different parts of the penis and everything and like all the different, you know, pleasure places on it and everything. So I think, you know, it's not, it's not only men that don't understand about women. It works, it works both ways. It's just that we've got a lot more stuff going on that's relatively confusing, whereas I think that women think that men's penises are fairly straightforward. And, you know, I suspect they're kind of right. But ours are confusing. We got all, you know, we got the inside, we got the outside. It's all, you know, I understand the fact that they get confused, but the fact, as you said, they don't really, they don't really seek out any information. That's, yeah, that's me. The big problem is like, if you're confused, read a book, right?

There's places to go that's not porn that you can find out if you're, if you feel like, I don't know if she's having an orgasm or not. Like, I just want people to like, look at porn for inspiration, like, okay, this is your roleplay scenario. But when it gets to like, oh, 'Oh, as soon as I see her, she's hot and ready to go.' I'm like, 'Yeah, that's not how most women work.' Yeah, it's not gonna work.

Anyway, Renee, enjoy yourself in Washington. I don't know how.

It's still a beautiful city.

It's a beautiful city. Just turn off the news and—

Yeah, I'm trying to read more books and, and do more stuff like this, and it takes my mind off of it.

Yeah, it's been lovely to talk to you!

You too, Suzanne—