Episode 136: Interview with Ally Iseman

This week's episode has been sponsored by Oh My Bod, shifting the evolution of pleasure. Hi, I'm Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. And those of you who follow me on Substack, where you may be getting this podcast, You may also be familiar with another person on Substack who actually I discovered on Substack. Like, I'm discovering so many amazing people actually these days. I'm virtually living on Substack. I don't know whether that's good or not, but that's the way it is. Um, her name's Allie Eisman and her Substack is called Passport to Pleasure. She's a writer. She's an ICF certified relationship coach. And I love this one. She's a non-monogamy nerd. I'm a bit of a non-monogamy nerd as well, actually. And she explores all the stuff around non-monogamy, which I think many people find challenging. And I sort of practice in my own relationships in a kind of way, which is, yeah, I do, I do practice it in my own relationships. And I, and one of the reasons why I want to speak to Allie is because I've often spoken about the fact that I think that one of the benefits of being older is that we can relook at how we consider relationships. And we can consider open relationships, ethical non-monogamy, kink, whatever you want, right? We can actually look and explore all of this, especially if we didn't have the opportunity to do that when we were younger, which many of us didn't. I know I, I was married for 12 years in an incredibly traditional relationship. Things like E&M, they just didn't really— nobody used those words. We might have had those kind of relationships, but certainly very few people spoke about it. And I think it's really interesting to talk about what that might mean or what that might look like in, in later life. So welcome, Ali, to Sexify Your Seniors.

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to have this conversation with you today. Thank you for that great introduction.

You're welcome. So I mean, I think, you know, firstly, how do you define ethical non-monogamy? Because I know it means very different things to lots of different people.

Yeah, so you'll hear the term ENM or ethical non-monogamy. You also hear CNM or consensual non-monogamy. Really the same thing. And it's an umbrella term for a lot of different types of relationship dynamics. Another one that is common these days is polyamory. So think of it like you have apples, and then there's a Granny Smith apple. Non-monogamy is the apples. Granny Smith is polyamory and a number of other different relationship dynamics. So it's like a catch-all umbrella term for a number of different dynamics. I really talk about relationship dynamics as a practice, as you so perfectly said. Relating is a practice. We're a relational species. Yet we don't treat this as a skill set when it's literally how we move through the world. So my mission is to really bring an awareness to relationship as a mindful practice in life, whatever dynamics you choose.

Yeah, and I think one of the problems that certainly I've heard about over and over since I've started doing this podcast is that the biggest challenge most people have within relationships, and especially if they're not starting new relationships, is around this aspect of communication, which of course is really at the core of For me, what ethical non-monogamy is all about is about actually being able to relate to the other person and talk to them about the fact that, hey, you know what, I might want to have sex with other people from time to time.

It's absolutely— effective communication is absolutely a requirement for successful relating of any kind. That's why I always stress that regardless of what dynamic, whether monogamous or some version of non-monogamy, learning about the skills necessary to have effective non-monogamy will benefit even monogamous relationships, because you can have an open monogamous relationship, meaning that you openly communicate, you relate openly to each other. There is, you know, bravery and vulnerability and intimacy in that relationship, because you know, you can bring anything to the table, look at it together and find a way through. A lot of relationships are closed in that there's that fear of bringing those things to the table. What are they going to do? Am I safe here? Like, what does this mean about me. And there's a lot of separating that happens in that. Open communicating, open relating brings us together. So learning about consensual non-monogamy, again, even if you choose monogamy as your relationship structure, will only benefit and strengthen your relationship.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of my own personal challenges is that mainly I would say I identify as a swinger. Because I don't— I find having lots of emotional relationships quite difficult, but I find separating sex from emotion very easy. So I find going off and just like randomly shagging people, like, it's fairly simple. But I find having lots of emotional relationships quite difficult. But then I find that also within the swinging community, and I, and I actually was listening to one of your videos, mainly the swinging community is about couples. So mainly people go off in couples, and they make their own, they negotiate as a couple, what they are or are not willing to do. And as a single woman, or the unicorn, as we are so often described, it's a, it's a weird place to be, because in some ways, people don't like dealing with us because they think that we're going to go after their guy or something. They think, you know, there's some degree of like, and we can move into this world of jealousy. And sometimes I do have more regular situationships, which then become a bit blurry around, around what they are, which is they're not quite, they're not quite swinging. Things. They're not quite full-on relationships, and it all becomes a little bit complicated. But, but one of the things that I find complicated about it myself is that there's a tension between a desire to want to engage a little bit more with someone and then the realization that actually, probably I don't really. And when the other person suggests they might be interested in somebody then there's a little jealousy that kicks in. And I find that, and I want to swipe it away and go, don't, you know, come on. Like, don't be, you know, you're being ridiculous here because you can't go off and do your shit and not expect the other person to do theirs. And that's where I find that communication actually is quite challenging. And I understand why people find it risky because You don't want to lose what you got, which is a good time for me anyway.

You're bringing up a lot of like really juicy interesting stuff I want to like dive into.

Yeah, feel free.

I would say, and I'm gonna, like I said, nerd, I'm gonna nerd out on some of this stuff, so cut me off at any point. But something I've always found really, really intriguing is most swingers don't consider themselves non-monogamous. They consider themselves monogamous. And this is just an activity we do on the side. It's a lifestyle we have, it's a hobby. And so that's where you'll get some of this, um, couple privilege, mononormative stuff of like, oh, this third person, you know, is sort of just there to satisfy our needs. It's really about what we need and what we want.

Yeah.

Um, okay, some people enjoy that and they should have that as an option, you know, if everyone involved is on board for that dynamic. And there's also, you know, thirds and unicorns, as you said, who are looking for, you know, a real relationship with a couple. There's a term that— I love learning new words, language is power, right? So the term symbiosexuality is the attraction to an already existing dynamic. It's something myself that I— that was really a part of the beginning of my journey was I really found myself attracted not to an individual or either individual in the couple, but the relationship itself, that I really wanted to be a part of that container.

Yeah.

And that's another version as well. And that's where it becomes empowering to have this kind of language to understand communication practices processes, tools, things like that, to really speak to this is what I'm looking for, this is what I am available to. And also understanding like something you said that's really important, understanding that your emotional needs, your emotional romantic desires are actually separate needs set on a separate plane entirely from your physical and sexual needs. So you could be polysexual and desire multiple sexual partners, but monoamorous, really only looking for that, you know, that one main emotional connection. And you could, you know, meet somebody else who's monosexual and polyamorous. So it's really, again, that the power and autonomy and just confidence that comes from understanding all of this. And, and it's just new. That's the only reason it seems like overwhelming and a lot, because again, we're not taught these things as a skill set. It's just like, oh, you were born, you probably had parents, they probably were a great example of relationship and they probably taught you all the best practices, right? But like, not me. I don't know about you.

I mean, I have two very loving, very monogamous, as far as I know, parents who, you know, didn't discourage me from doing anything, to be honest. But I find sometimes I find all the terminology a little bit overwhelming because it's, you know, we start to label ourselves and box ourselves into all of these categories. And personally, I'm quite fluid about all of this. Like, sometimes I am totally monogamous with people. And then I find 2 years down the line, I become quite frustrated generally, and then I want to break it open a little bit, and then the person I'm with doesn't. That's my— I've done that a few times. Or I have situations where I meet people in the, in the swinging world, but they're not actually swingers. They're just people who want to have sex at that particular point in time. And then they like me. And then it carries on. And I'm like, oh, but are— what are we going to do? Oh, no, we're not. Because actually, that was just a place that you found yourself in that website.

Because at that point in time, your dick was talking and said that maybe it would find some action when it's there, as opposed to on Hinge, where You know, and if we don't have any understanding of what that even means, how can we communicate it to somebody else to find the right people to have these experiences with? We end up hurting ourselves and other people completely unnecessarily.

Yeah, no, because all of it's okay.

It's all okay. And again, to your point about language too, like, I like to say, think of labels as a conversation starter, not the end of the sentence. Yeah, cool. You're polyamorous. What does that mean to you? What are your actual dynamics? What does this encounter mean to you? What are you available for? What are you not available for? Like, that's juicy. That's like, let it open the door. Don't let it be like a stamp.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I find that in the beginning of relationships, it's much easier to have those conversations because there's less risk attached. So if you have them and somebody says, eh, I don't really think that's my thing. You know, at that point, you have to decide how much of it is your thing. And then, could you— is that a deal breaker or not? But I find it's later on in relationships when you've gotten a little bit closer and you get to know somebody. And if you haven't had all of that relationships, or if you don't even know yourself, sometimes you don't even know yourself. And then something happens and you think, oh, that was actually really fun. And the other person went, we're never doing that again. Never doing that again. And I, and I watched your video, the one that went viral about you, the implosion that was my last monogamous relationship.

Yeah. Yes, we all have an origin story.

Yeah, for those of you who don't know, Allie, well, you can, you can share that particular story.

So, um, I'll try and summarize, um, what, what inevitably became my last monogamous relationship. We had attempted to open up with none of the language or tools or skills that I, of course, now possess after 10 years of studying it and immersing myself. But like most people, and then this is, you know, almost a decade ago, was nowhere near as accessible as it is nowadays. And it blew up in our faces. We had made the agreement that we both had free rein to connect with another person. He traveled a lot for work. And so I said, you know, if you meet somebody on the road, just, you know, send me a consensual, you know, rated PG photo and like, have a great time and tell me everything afterwards. And he did connect with somebody, sent me a lovely photo. They ended up staying up all night talking. Delightful. Was so excited. I was like, oh good, this is, yeah, this feels really good. Like this is making me feel closer to him, et cetera. And then another time he had gone out of town and I had a friend coming into town. We had known each other for years at this point, had had a sexual history, very, very much just friends. So I was like, this is perfect. Totally safe. Somebody I feel safe with, respected by, like it's great. He gave— my partner gave me what he called his green light. And I had an incredible night with my friend. I— it opened up what I call expansive love. It made just— it was just a huge yes and for my relationship. And, you know, we had agreed. I called him right after, you know, what do you want to know? I love you so much. Like, this is—

thank you.

And what do you want to know? And it was just dead silence on the other line until he just said, I can't believe you did it. And that just kind of began the two-week implosion of— there were other— there were other elements at play. But yeah, we, you know, God, would I do things differently now? Of course, of course I would have done. We needed way more clear communication practices, agreements in place. Like, absolutely I would do things differently, but you don't know what you don't know. So the agreement I made with myself after that relationship came to an end was like, okay, this is real for me. I do need to explore this, but I'm gonna at least start the journey on my own because I don't want any more like emotional casualties on my conscience.

Yeah, fair enough. And it's, and it's funny because I, I, that when I watched that video, I remembered it brought up two memories for me, two old memories. One memory was somebody that I was, you know, I was having a relationship with, but it wasn't, it wasn't, again, it wasn't a serious one. It was more of a sexual relationship. And I remember him telling me about somebody else that he was with. And I said, tell me all the details. I want to know everything. And I think we were actually having sex at the time. And I was like, tell me everything that you did to her. Like, I want to know everything. And for that, and at that moment, it removed the mystery for me on the, and the jealousy, because I felt like I was kind of involved in there, in it, and that he had revealed things that were very intimate. And I felt closer to him doing that. And then on the flip side of that, I was in a relationship with somebody where he liked bringing guys into the relationship. And, and me having sex with them. And it wasn't until a guy turned up who was very well endowed and quite funny and very young, and he— and I laughed while I was having sex with him. I laughed, and he got really jealous. And, and that ended. And, and our— all of those experiences ended at that moment. But he did say I said, look, we can stop this at any moment. And he went, no, no, no. And he said, I like the jealousy. So let's talk about jealousy because I really think that jealousy is such an interesting emotion. Sometimes I can get it to work for me and sometimes I can't. Yeah.

And I think I actually, I have a, I'm still vacillating on this. I don't consider jealousy an emotion, rather it's a collective of emotions. That you experience elicited by something. So, you know, um, it can be— there can be fear, there can be insecurity. They're more like, you know, core emotions that are wrapped in the jealousy package is how I think of it. And so first and foremost, I think the biggest thing to understand, um, that honestly, if you take nothing else learning about consensual non-monogamy, take this nugget, it'll change your life. Jealousy is not something to be avoided. It's actually a tool. It's giving you information on, hey, here's there's something for you to look at either within yourself or within the relationship. And there is personal growth and self-development available from that. It's very uncomfortable, do not get me wrong. Jealousy is uncomfortable. But jealousy has also got some cousins that are pretty interesting, like compersion and zoophilia. And then there's also erotic compersion, which I know you watched the conversation I had. And so the idea that for For those who don't know, compersion is colloquially known as the opposite of jealousy. It's the, excuse me, the joy and pleasure you experience from your partner experiencing joy and pleasure with someone else. You can also experience compersion for friends, you know, when your friend gets that, you know, job promotion they've been working for, that joy they have, you feel that joy for them. It's empathetic joy at the end of the day. And zoophilia is when jealousy becomes a turn-on, becomes erotic. It still is jealousy, but it actually lends towards, again, that erotic turn-on. And that might be maybe what your partner was kind of alluding to, of like, no, no, I'm jealous, but like, keep going. This is working for me.

He was kinky in that way. Yeah, there was something about that that he liked, but he didn't— he didn't like it when it—

when it—

when he felt that he was being— he felt he was being threatened, I think, by that. He knew that he had the upper hand when it came to being the funny guy, being the smart guy, being the guy that always made me laugh. And when he saw someone else doing that, that's when he got, you know, that, that's when he wanted to stop it all.

Yeah, it sounds like he wanted to not have that experience. And the shortest, you know, shortcut to that was cut the things that are triggering that.

Yeah.

And what I was hearing, what I'm hearing in the description is maybe there was some, you know, I break down jealousy into like 4 types of romantic jealousy, and comparison or competition is one of those. Yeah, it sounds like maybe he was met with that, which is often related to one of the other kinds, insecurity. And yeah, it takes some effort to like look at that and be like, oh, where am I being met? Oh, what if he's funnier than me? Maybe I don't feel as funny and I see that as a, you know, as a power dynamic and like, what does that mean? And really like taking that thought pattern all the way through.

Yeah.

There's a lot of value in that. But yeah, it's a lot easier to just be like, nope, don't want to feel it. Shut it down.

Yeah. And it takes a huge amount of effort. Generally, and this is why I've never considered myself poly, because when I look at my seriously committed poly friends, they spend an enormous amount of time negotiating their various relationships. And, oh, you know, for me, it's like this constant communication to make sure everyone's okay all the time. Are we all okay? Is it all good? Whereas in my just have sex with them and go relationships, I'm— I don't really do too much checking in. Just, yeah, like, It's fun. We've had fun. It's been good fun, right?

Yeah, it's been good fun. Check, check. Okay, cool. Have a nice life.

Good.

Which is great. Again, if everyone's on the same pattern, you know.

Yeah.

But I think like it sounds like you're very clear in what you're available for and you communicate what you're available for. So you're able to connect with people who are on the same page. Fan-fucking-tastic. There are a lot of people who like all of that communication and really putting it all out there. Like what you described is commonly called kitchen table polyamory where it's like everyone involved is sitting around the kitchen table and we're putting it all on the table every night. How's it going? What's this? Like, a lot of people get off on that. And like, again, nerd, like, I love talking about all day. For myself, I do need certain boundaries because I have one of my partners, well, like, this is how he'll catch me on stuff. I'll be like, okay, counselor, when I go into like, okay, we're gonna roll it back. We're both equal playing field here. We don't need to analyze the shit out of this for the purposes of a YouTube video. But it's just, it's finding those, again, finding those, those types of communication, those mannerisms that works for you so that you are connecting with the right people to do that with. Because it's all partnership. Even what you're describing with the people you connect with, that's a partnership. You're agreeing this is the context.

Yeah. And, and I mean, when we think about these sort of more, when we think about older sorts of people, how do you think that the What are the benefits of exploring things like compersion, for instance?

Sure. Well, I think it's important to recognize that we are growing and changing. Our priorities are changing, our needs are changing throughout our life. And so if we're looking at relationships in our life, those relationships, if they're gonna last for a length of time, they need to have the space and be flexible for change as well. So that's where the power of you know, intentional relationship design comes in is, okay, we're in an agreement we call our relationship. We are going to bring all of our questions to the table. We're going to look at things. We're going to be willing to be uncomfortable because that's not the same thing as unsafe. We're going to negotiate and renegotiate over time because how I feel right now might not be how I feel after menopause, might not be after our kids leave the house, you know, and it's okay. And we might be on the same page right now when it comes to our sex, lives, and that might change down the line. And that's okay, as long as it's on the table to be discussed and looked at.

Yeah, I mean, I suspect that most often it may, it may not have been on the table. And then of course, trying to get it on the table is something that I hear most often is the biggest problem, right? Is somebody wants to, somebody wants to switch things up, or they, or things just aren't working anymore because of health issues, for example, which can fill people with shame, and quite justifiably, when you, you know, when, when the equipment stops working as you expect it to, and you then have to think, well, okay, what do I, you know, what do I do now? It's, it is, it is difficult. I mean, I think it's always harder when you have been in a long-term relationship than when you're just starting out. I think when you're just starting out, this is, this is the great big opportunity, right, to have all these wonderful conversations and say, I want, I want to start this in this incredibly open, empowered way where we can both make sure that our needs are met, our desires are met, and we're both on the same page when it comes to, you know, how we express ourselves sexually, so that one person doesn't get just incredibly frustrated. I do think it's hard.

Yeah, well, it's, it's work. What's the Buddhist saying? Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. You know, like there's work involved in life. Yes. If you want to improve things, you don't go to the gym and lay on the floor and get stronger. Like there's effort involved, but the struggle doesn't have to be there. I think really a lot of the work I do, actually, probably I would say with everyone, but I would say especially with, you know, couples that have been together. I primarily, I work with couples, but I also work with solos and other relationship constellations. But primarily couples that have been together for a long time, a common— I don't want to say issue, but a common theme that will come up is mismatched libidos at this point in life. Whether that's, you know, just someone's just not interested anymore or is not capable of anymore or whatever that is. And it's really getting underneath what the, you know, what does it mean to not be able to do that thing anymore with your partner? And then really looking at, oh, it's, it's that you don't feel involved with them anymore. You don't feel as connected. So what are other ways that connect? What are other— and really finding all the ways that shows up and really breaking down what I call compound meanings. A lot of times people will merge words to be synonyms that are not. Big one is love, sex, and commitment. Those are three different words. So your partner having a sexual need met by someone else is not a synonym for them loving you less. Yeah, that's a big one. And so if it's about connection, what are all the other ways that connection is available?

Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things that I was thinking about is, uh, especially around compersion, because I think compersion is so interesting, is do you think it's possible to learn compersion?

Yeah, it's a skill. I think it can be developed. There's also nothing wrong with not having it. It's, um, I enjoy it. I experience it very, uh, naturally.

It's—

it was actually the reason I kind of realized there was something a little different about me. Maybe I didn't have the word compersion, but I didn't experience— I thought I was experiencing jealousy, and it was very pleasant. And like, I wanted to hear about my partner's other side, like, like, tell me more. And I was like, I don't understand why people hate jealousy. This is awesome. Like, this feels so good. And then I learned, you know, you start learning, oh, that's what was going on. And then I've since experienced actual jealousy, and I can confirm it is very unpleasant. But compersion, for me, it's— I experience it, um, And I will say it has grown even as I've continued on this journey as well. So my personal experience is that yes, it can absolutely be developed and strengthened and honed. And I experience it for friends, I experience it for family. It's like I said, it's— you think about how you feel when someone you cares about— when someone you care about experiences something they want or that they need. Take, you know, sex and everything else out of it. Yeah, that's that sensation. And it's, it's that magnified tenfold.

Yeah. And I know a couple that would refer to themselves more as polyamorous who do a great podcast called The Empty Nesters. It's called the—

yeah, I've heard about them.

And she's great. And we've talked about the joy that she feels when her partner goes off and, you know, he wants to do kinky things. She wants to walk naked in nature with with somebody and, you know, they just, they have things that they don't share together and things that they enjoy doing with other people, which give them both joy. So without, when they do come together, they're not resentful because they got what they needed from, from the other people. I suppose that's for me, think something that I totally understand. I totally understand if I'm not able to meet the needs of somebody else in, in a situation that I'm in where they think, you know, I don't really like pain, for instance. So if somebody wants to go and spank somebody and do all of that kind of thing, it's like, you go and do that because I don't, I don't want marks on my bottom. It's just not interesting to me. So I do get that. Where I don't get it is where I feel like I should be meeting that need and I'm not.

Ah, the ultimate should. My least favorite word in the English language. I like to say, watch when— watch your usage of should, because a lot of us should all over ourselves. Because you're speaking to something really important. It's counterintuitive to think like, oh, you know, we're taught it every day in every way that our one ultimate partner should satisfy every area of our life. That is a very recent development in our species, and it's unrealistic, quite frankly, and damaging a lot of relationships. The idea also that like, oh, if I go away and I have alone time, that actually supports my relationship. It goes against all the programming we're constantly receiving, but all the data shows us that it's true. And this idea that like, why is this one type of shared experience treated so differently? If you have— you said it so perfectly— I'm not interested in this, please go do that with somebody else. I, A, now I don't have to worry about it. B, I don't have to like shame you or limit you or like feel like I'm pressured into doing something I don't want to do. I want you to— this is how I like to describe compersion too. Like if I'm interested in connecting with somebody, if I'm attracted to them, I want to create and explore whatever version of connection with them. That means I like who they are, how they're showing up. So everything they're into and everything they've done and are doing, makes them that. So why on earth would I want to say stop doing X, Y, and Z? Then they're not the thing, the person, the experience that I'm attracted to any longer.

It's a really, really, really good point. And if somebody's curious about all of these ideas, but they're hesitant or they're a bit overwhelmed, where do you think they should start? I think I know what you're—

Am I allowed to say myself?

Suzanne Noble.

Is that too on the nose?

No, I was gonna say that, but I'll leave.

Should have let you say— no, but I mean, genuinely, that's why I, I obviously love talking about this. I think, um, it's, it's such a passion for me, human relating, just how we interact. And it's at our cellular level what we're built to do is connect and interact with each other. So to actually have, you know, relationship technology out there that people can access— again, I don't care what relationship structure you choose as long as it's a choice and it's an informed So that's my mission is to make sure people have access to that information and the skill set so they can do that.

That is a great mission, Allie.

Thank you.

And if you go on Passport to Pleasure, you will find loads of resources. I went down the rabbit hole this afternoon. I was like, fuck, I have work to do.

It's supposed to be fun. It can be fun. Enjoy it. Doesn't have to be all sweat and tears. It's great fun.

And I think especially if you're interested in other relationship styles besides monogamy, and you're interested in some of these concepts that we've been talking about, like jealousy, conversion, ethical non-monogamy, and you're going, what the fuck, Suzanne, are you going on about? Then Ali's website and Substack is such a great place to start. It's a— it's just a mine of resources. And yeah, and personally, I just think if you are thinking about these things, then life is short. Why not give it a whirl?

Yeah, you only die once. Make the most of it.

Exactly. Thanks so much for appearing on Sex Advice for Seniors. It's been great to have you.

Thank you so much for inviting me. I appreciate it so much.

Thank you.