Episode 137: The Wheel of Consent: A New Approach to Intimacy

This week's episode has been sponsored by Oh My Bod, shifting the evolution of pleasure. Hi, this is Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. And today I'm with Dr. Denise Rennie, clinical psychotherapist, sexologist, Psychedelic integration. That sounds exciting. I don't know where you are even.

I didn't ask where you were, Denise.

Where are you?

I'm in the Bay Area.

Oh, very exciting. Is it raining there?

It is just starting to rain right now. Yep. We had a few sunny days and now it's raining.

Yeah, it's raining here in Spain as well. It was raining cats and dogs and it's the middle of Carnival. And I think all the little children in their costumes are getting completely soaked. Poor things. Anyway, we're not going to be talking about Carnival of Rain.

We—

I thought we'd start by talking about actually something that probably lots of people are curious about, which is what is sex therapy?

I mean, it's a really good question because oftentimes people don't know. And it's just a specialized form of talk therapy that talks specifically around sensuality, sexuality, and it just helps individuals and couples get in touch with who they are, what their desires are, intimacy, sexuality. And I feel like it's, I mean, it's crucial at any age, but especially over 50, as bodies change, as relationship dynamics change, as, you know, cultural messages start seeping in even more about how you should be. And it can be hard to go when there's not an expectation of what is it going to be actually? Is it hands-on? Is it just talk therapy? So there are forms of therapeutic intervention that would be by somebody who could be like a surrogate. Yeah. And that's different from sex therapy. That would be hands-on. But sex therapy itself is just a specialized form of talk therapy.

All right. And is it true that you have to train as a psychotherapist before you can become a registered sex therapist, or is that sexology?

Well, there's different ways to get to be a sex therapist. I did a 2-year master's program at a university, um, out right outside of Philadelphia and in the States. And you can also go into a certificate program, and it depends, you know, what level of training do you want to have. But you do have to have, um, your sex therapy education. And then you also have to have a license as a— I'm a psychologist. You could be a therapist at a master's level. You could be a social worker. So if you have your clinical degree and then you go and you get your education around sex therapy at an accredited space, then you can be a sex therapist. And then there's also a sexologist that you go a different route. Also getting a certification in that, but you still also have to have your clinical license.

What's the difference between the two of them, sex therapy and sexology?

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of overlap because sexology, you can— maybe you're studying more of the biological underpinnings of sexuality. Sexology, you could also do clinical work, but you might not have the specific training that a clinical psychologist would have that goes together with the sexology training. And then you might also do education. So you may be doing sex ed.

It just depends.

Sexology is kind of an umbrella term.

All right. And what would you say for people who are older people who perhaps are quite nervous, probably legitimately quite nervous if they've never— if they've never explored this area before, what would you say to to them about, about how to approach it?

I mean, one, I would say it's completely normal to be nervous. And if you aren't, it would be surprising. Because a lot of times people don't have space in life to talk about sex or sexuality, sadly so. And then all of a sudden, they might have a disconnect from their body that might show up as low desire, or erectile dysfunction, or a different way of expressing oneself that isn't of the cultural norm. And then they might want to seek something out, but then they think, oh, what is this sex therapy? What, how, what am I going to do in there? Should I even call them? What's their training? Who are they? I mean, it's completely normal. And a lot of times I find that people just starting the conversation is a big, big relief. Just finding their way to that first part of the conversation of, I think I wanna learn more about what you do and I need a little bit of help.

And do you sometimes find that one person starts with you and then brings along their partner when they feel more comfortable? Or do you find that if you're working with couples, they come together generally?

How?

I suspect there's no kind of norm, but yeah, I mean, it depends.

Everybody really varies. And sometimes there are couples where one partner says, we gotta go, and they're pulling their partner kicking and screaming, and the other partner isn't sure if they want to go or not. And in that case, it's best not to force the partner who doesn't want to go. But you could have the partner who wants to go start. And from there, who knows what could happen? That partner might find, oh, I have this individual space where I can talk about myself and my desires, and I've never had that in my life before. And that might be really, really helpful for that person and for the partnership. And sometimes there's some space for that individual partner, and then there might be some changes happening. And then that's influencing the relationship in a positive way. And then the other partner says, you know, I think I am ready. I think I would like to see what's going on in there and take part.

Yeah, and I suspect that also one of the challenges— I mean, if I'd even known about sex therapy during my marriage, or, you know, earlier in my life, I probably would have had more of a vernacular to talk about sex with my partner that I just felt like I didn't have. I, you know, we did— it's not something we learn when we're young is how to talk about sex with other people, right? It, it's something that you either learn by experience, in my case, or you do have to seek professional help. And I suspect that if you're, if you're working through challenges in your relationship, then one of the hardest things is how to address those challenges without blame, without a sense of shame, without all of that negativity that's you're now imbuing this relationship with and to take it out and go, okay, maybe this person can give me some tools that I can use to bring back into the relationship so that I actually can have a conversation and feel more confident about how to get that conversation started in a positive way.

It's so true.

And most people don't get the language of how to speak about it. And not only not the language, but not that sense of comfort of I'm allowed to speak about this, to even talk about one's, one, one's body, one's desires, one's needs for sensuality, connection, and intimacy. I mean, that's just not the norm, which is again, very sad and disappointing, and hopefully changing with, with many things like this podcast. And it gives people a permission You have this permission slip. Now you can really be whoever you are. And maybe it's the first time in someone's life that they are speaking about this. And they're curious, oh, who am I? And sex therapy really offers this way of a nonjudgmental, safe space for people to explore their physical wants, their emotional wants, their sensuality, even kind of a spiritual connection some couples might want.

Yeah, sure.

So we talked a little bit before about something that I only recently heard about, which is called the Wheel of Consent. And I know it's come up bizarrely, it's come up 2 or 3 times in the past few months where I'd never heard about it before. And you brought it up just earlier, and I'd love to talk about it because I think it's a really interesting tool. And certainly it's become much more widely known, but not not so widely known, everybody knows about it. So what is the Wheel of Consent?

The Wheel of Consent is a somatic tool developed by Betty Martin. And she developed it as a way for couples to— or actually anybody, it could be partners of any sort, friends, any sort of partnership that you have, where you have to negotiate consent. So if we're, we're here talking about sex therapy, to use it in that way, partners can really explore and be curious and maybe even redefine what their connection is with touch and intimacy and pleasure. And it just allows for people to take out the unspoken expectations that may be there, or people may think are there, And it's really just allows people to kind of navigate touch and pleasure in a way that's safe, in a way that people are embodied, and it doesn't move too quickly. The whole modality is built in such a way where it moves a bit slower. So oftentimes when we're in sexual experiences, especially in the beginning of something new, yeah, it just moves fast. And there isn't this built-in Oh, what are you hoping for?

What are your—

what are you looking for here? And all of a sudden, there's a sexual experience that happens that it's not been slowed down enough so that then the pleasure can reach, the consent can reach.

Interesting. And how would you say it differs from another tool that I've recommended before called the Yes, No, Maybe Checklist?

Hmm, tell me about the Yes No Maybe checklist.

The Yes No Maybe checklist. The Yes No Maybe checklist is literally a checklist that you give to your partner or anybody that you plan on having intimacy with. All different types, and you can decide how kinky or not kinky you want this checklist to be, basically. And it's, it's literally a list of stuff that you do from starting with kissing or touching or mass, whatever, all the way through to more extreme sexual behaviors like spanking and flogging and, you know, asphyxiation and everything. If you want to go that far, you don't have to go to the extreme one. You could do, you could do an abbreviated yes, no, maybe checklist. So they, so you each have the same piece of paper with the same activities on it. And each of those activities, you tick yes, no, or maybe. It gives you a starting point then for whether or not you are on the same page with regard to the things that you like, the things that you might want to try, and the things that are totally off limits, right?

Don't like at all.

So, you know, you might not like, for instance, hard pounding sex as an example, or, you know, you might not like pinching or scratching or nails. Yeah, or nails or whatever, right? So I think it's a really interesting tool because it, it, it opens up the conversation to explore the things that you might mutually enjoy. It provides the potential for things that you might not have tried but might like to try. And it also tells you what's completely off limits and you're not interested in and you don't enjoy. So that's already stated. Mm-hmm. And yeah, and it's just, for me, it's just another way of being able to open up the conversation about things that you might or might not enjoy. How does the Wheel of Consent differ from that, which is literally just a checklist?

Yeah, I mean, it's very similar in the sense that it creates a space for conversation. It creates a space for people to talk about maybe where their hesitancies are, or where they have more curiosity, or where they might want to explore but they might not be quite ready. Um, having a list is really nice. And also, um, when you have something like the yes, no, maybe list, you can also kind of inject a little bit of, you know, you could pause, you could try things out. The Wheel of Consent, there's the key to it is giving and receiving. So it's kind of this conversation about what do I like to give, what do I like to receive. I like in something like the Yes, No, Maybe, also putting that in there because someone might really like receiving nails down the back, but they don't like giving it.

Yeah, I should have said that some Yes, No, Maybe checklists have give and receive as additional columns.

Yes.

So, so you can say I like to give, but I don't, I don't like to receive. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. I think that they are— this is the Wheel of Consent and the Yes, No, Maybe checklist. They're both really amazing ways of opening a conversation. The Wheel of Consent, I mean, Betty Martin really developed it as a, as a somatic exercise, so that there is a moving into like, what do I like to allow? What do I— what is acceptable to me? And what do I want to explore? The Yes, No, Maybe can be, I think, a little bit more heady.

Yeah, yeah.

And which is okay in another great way. And then the 4D is also another modality which is developed by Gina Ogden. And that is another somatic tool. So there are many different ways in. And I think sometimes when people have different options, they feel more comfortable. They're like, oh, this one resonates more with me. And this one, maybe not so much. So giving people more options is really a great idea.

And is the wheel of consent, from the way I understand it, and I'm, I could be completely wrong, is it that you are, that the consent is taking place while the activities are occurring rather than before anything's actually happened? So is it more of you're going with the sort of flow of it and you're sort of pausing checking in, going, pausing, checking in, going, whereas the Yes, No, Maybe checklist is more— you start with the checklist and then you just get on with it.

Yeah, the, the Wheel of Consent really is kind of a way to ensure that every interaction is fully consensual and desired, and there's not going to be a moving on until that's kind of understood. And there's a slowing down. Again, that slowing down is really important. And a lot of times things, you know, quick and easy somatic exercise is something we do all the time, which is breathing. And oftentimes when we're in a situation that feels a little anxiety-producing or we're unsure about it, then it's easy to forget. So it helps to slow down and it helps to just ensure, you know, we're all on the same page. We're all on the same sexy page.

Yeah. And I think especially as an older person as well, one of the things that I've always said that I enjoy about being older is the ability to slow down because, you know, just from a purely physiological point of view, we're not going to have a million orgasms unless we're super, you know, we're superhuman. It's unlikely. If I get to one, I'm happy. But, you know, and men are the same. It's like, okay, normally the refractory period's a bit longer. So it's good. So the longer you can draw it out, and the more you can make it into something where there isn't a hurry, and there isn't a rush, and you can, as you say, keep checking in, keep maintaining that constant flow of consent. The more I suspect it can also build and heighten the excitement. Because yeah, it's a point you're like, do I, can I, will she, won't he, you know, which can in one way sound slightly frustrating. And the other way can be quite exciting. I, I guess.

I mean, I think it's really, you know, different strokes for different folks, as it were. And there's a— some people might consider that kind of this anticipatory, we even edging, we'll say, slightly. It's like, can we do this? Oh, this is very hot, and we're not going to do it yet, but we're gonna, you know, slow it down. So it could be really, really sexy in a way. And it also just really builds trust and this emotional intimacy along the way that really kind of dovetails into something that can be really satisfying. Yeah, really, really satisfying in the long run.

I guess the, the flip side of that though is that if you do something and you're met with, uh, I'm not sure, it's understanding that that isn't rejection. That's just, it's not my thing. It's not, I'm not, it's not that I don't love you or care about you or I'm not enjoying all the other stuff that we're doing. It's just this particular aspect of this of our intimate life isn't, you know, it's not working as well as other stuff is. And that's sometimes difficult to take in the moment, is the, is the boundary setting. That's, that's the only thing I find slightly challenging, if I'm really honest, is stating no during intimacy can be really hard if you've never, if you've never set boundaries before, right?

It could be very, very hard. And it also sheds light on, okay, somebody is feeling rejected. And how is this connection going to hold that? Because there's, you know, it's so, you know, very, very rare that two people will love the same exact thing at all times throughout the entirety of their relationship. Yeah. So then the couple, the partner who are in that sexual situation, they get to navigate that together.

Yeah.

They get to navigate, oh, I, you know, if, if they have the tools for something, say even something like nonviolent communication, this can also be pulled in. And then they could say, I feel really rejected. And if there's a safe space for intimacy on all levels, they could say, Does that mean you don't like me? Or, you know, they could check in about their insecurity. And if they're in a safe space, which I really, really hope that they are, because I want that for everybody.

Yeah.

Then they can learn, and they're learning beyond just the bedroom, because that sort of thing is going to happen outside of the bedroom too, if the relationship is more than kind of a sexual encounter.

Yeah.

So you mentioned something called the 4D Wheel. I don't know about that.

So that's— that was developed by this woman, Gina Ogden, who has actually since passed. And I studied with her. And that is something where you create a circle on the ground and it incorporates some Native American medicine wheel. And you literally walk around it to see and you embody in the moment of what feels right for you and what doesn't. It's not something— I mean, you can definitely do it with a partner, you could do it with your sex therapist to know yourself more. It's not really something that you're going to do kind of in the moment in a sexy situation, but it's certainly something that you're going to discuss that's going on sensually, sexually. What do you want?

So I, I don't know if we've ever spoken about it before, but you've, you've definitely mentioned on your website, Sensate Focus, to reduce performance anxiety, which I— can you tell us a bit more about that?

Yeah, Sensate Focus is, you know, I would say an oldie but goodie. Some people might say, are we still doing that? I think it's really an excellent way for people to learn how to have non-sexual touch.

Yeah.

And learn their partner's body. Sometimes there— I work with couples where maybe one partner is experiencing earlier than wanted ejaculation.

Hmm.

And it's— it can be very challenging for the couple because then they feel unsatisfied, they don't feel connected. And then if they do something like sensate focus, they, they're incorporating an exercise where they are having timed intervals where they can touch each other in certain ways that are prescribed by a sex therapist to tell them like, this is what you're going to do. So everybody knows the boundaries, everybody knows the parameters of we're going to engage in this way today. And it's going to be nice, it's going to be something where it's completely consensual.

Yeah.

And then they know there's an endpoint, and they're not going to get to the point of sexual, explicitly sexual touch for a little while. Like, it starts out where there's affection, there's cuddling, there's non-sexual massaging, and it builds up from there. So then say in the example that I gave, if there's somebody who is dealing with earlier than they want ejaculation, then they can say, oh, okay, this is— now I understand better where there's a challenge for me. And now we can go back to Dr. Reni and we can talk about it. And, and then she can help us think about it and feel about it and then will tell us what to do next.

Yeah, it's an old Masters and Johnson technique, isn't it?

It is. Yeah, it is.

Yeah, I've read about it. And I thought, oh, I really— in fact, I, I I suggested it in some magazine article I wrote where somebody was asking what, what recommendations would I have for if a couple needed to, you know, re-engage with intimacy. And I thought it— for me, it's made absolutely perfect sense. And I think as well for older people, it's one of those techniques that, because it builds up really, really slowly, and people can sometimes lose the ability to even touch each other when they've been in those long-term relationships where they're sleeping on opposite sides of the bed, they're not touching each other at all. Providing both people agree to, to practice sensate focus, I thought, what a great way to try and re-engage with touch and re-engage with intimacy, providing both people agree, of course, because, you know, that's, that's what it's always all about.

But it sure is.

Yeah.

And they also, even if people are getting into empty nesting at that stage of life.

Yeah.

And now, who are we again, now that we've raised children, they're out and about, maybe we are becoming grandparents.

Yeah.

You know, identities shift and people evolve in all sorts of ways over the course of lifetime. Of course, they would evolve sexually. Like, who are you now versus who were you then? Or even if somebody has a new partner in middle-aged, middle-aged, then, you know, who are you? Who am I now? They, they really need to get to know themselves. We all need to get to know ourselves as time goes on because we do evolve and having curiosity about evolving sexuality, focusing on pleasure rather than goal-oriented is really, really key. And that's something that Sensate Focus really helps you see, oh, I've been goal-oriented in this, you know, a performance of to get to the finish line of coming. That's not the goal. The, the journey is the goal. There is the pleasure-oriented focus that could just bring such new ways to explore oneself in an intimate partnership.

Yeah, completely. And, and also, I think that it serves its It could be useful in so many scenarios that have just like sprung to mind. One is, for instance, if you've been widowed and you haven't been with somebody for a long time, and perhaps the thought of being intimate with a new partner after a long time, you know, not having a new partner can be really scary. Sensei Focus is a really great way to very, very, very slowly re-engage with intimacy with another person. Like I said, it could be great if you haven't touched your partner in a long time and want to learn how to get back to that point where you're connected. I was thinking of a member of my family whose name I won't mention. Their child is off to university soon, and he was saying that they were having a conversation, he and his wife, and going like, are we, are we even going to still like each other? You know, they've spent so long, you know, caring for their child and being a parent and kind of losing sight of their own relationship. So they took themselves off on a little holiday together recently, and they said they were really delighted to find they still liked each other.

Oh, I'm so happy to hear that. I'm so happy to hear that because, you know, sexuality and connection, it doesn't have an expiration date. It just changes and grows with you. But it really, there are some of these tools that could be helpful to kind of understand how that growth and that change has occurred.

Absolutely. And I think also people do worry with the whole empty nesting thing that they, that suddenly they're going to be 24/7 with this person that they haven't spent that length of time with for a long time. Yes, can be quite scary. So I think, you know, I think all of these techniques— the great thing about whether whatever technique you use, whether it's Wheel of Consent or Yes, No, Maybe checklist or Sensate Focus— is for me, these tools that I've, you know, that I've only recently learned about since I've started doing all of this, these tools are, are a way to open up the conversations, especially in relationships where you've not really talked about sex. And it's a question that comes up time and time again. My partner doesn't want to talk about this. They, you know, they've shut down. These are techniques and tools that you can use to try to slowly re-engage with your partner around intimacy. And, you know, whether it's moving into something which is different than what you had before, or just negotiating your sex life, in a way that feels new. Mm-hmm.

Yep, it's very true. It's very true. And also talking about empty nesters and, you know, will we like each other, or we have to spend all this time together now, and we don't have that focus that we had before, which was raising our child, our children, running the household. You know, they'll still run the household, but it's also important for each partner to have their own life that's outside of just the partnership, just the household, their own hobbies. What do they like in life now? And there's also questions that they might not have really asked themselves along the way, because they get into this routine as people do. Focus is shifted when there is children to raise, and there's many, many responsibilities that get in the way. So then when there's more free time, it might, it might end up people are a little bit at each other's necks because they don't know what to do with themselves. And that's not very sexy, unless that's your kink, but—

That's right, anything can be kinky if you make it that way. It's true. Which, are there any books or resources that you'd recommend for those exploring their sexual health and intimacy?

Mm. Well, I, I do recommend Betty Martin's The Art of Receiving and Giving, which is on the wheel of consent. And I'm actually going to go to a training next week down in Esalen, this gorgeous place in Big Sur, California. Betty's going to be doing a training, so I'm excited about that. And I also would recommend The Complete Idiot's Guide to Tantric Sex. And this is another— I mean, we didn't really get into Tantra, but it's an extremely intricate philosophy that, you know, gets watered down in the West. But nonetheless, there we can take a lot of, lot of really great things and learn from Tantra in terms of knowing oneself, knowing what one wants, and getting in touch with yourself and your partner.

Yeah, no, I totally agree with you. I've spoken to lots of Tantra people, so We have well covered that, but haven't seen that book. So thanks very much. And it has been absolutely a delight to talk to you and to learn more about the Wheel of Consent and all these other tools that are out there and available for people who want to deepen the intimacy with their partner. And why wouldn't you want to do that?

Why wouldn't you want to? May everybody do that.

Thanks so much.

Of course. Thanks for having me.