Episode 141: What's all the Fuss about Pubic Hair

This week's episode has been sponsored by Oh My Bod, shifting the evolution of pleasure. Hi, this is Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. One of the more bizarre topics that we've never spoken about— people might not want to speak about it, but what the hell, why not? Why not? Like I'm always I'm always trying to pull new topics out of the air, and sometimes my guests suggest them, and I'm like, yeah, let's go for it, why not? I'm here today with Sam Feldman, who has written a book that about— well, it's about— it's erotic short stories. It's from the sort of taken from the perspective of being in the 1970s. I always think, Sam, when I, when I read this book of Boogie Nights, and, and that kind of era of porn. It's called Hookups, Hiccups and Happenstances. And Sam's an older dude, and we thought we would talk about pubic hair, at least to start with. Let's talk about pubic hair because nobody, you know, like back when we were growing up, it was a thing. And now maybe not so much of a thing.

So the thing that brings it into focus today is a woman recently posted on TikTok that she liked to wear bikini bottoms and have her bush showing outside of the bikini bottoms. So that's what brought it to mind with me. And then I was surprised to see that she was gaining a following on TikTok of like-minded women.

Yeah.

And I thought, wow, that's something, maybe not something I favor. Like, are we going back to the '60s and '70s?

Yeah. And you know what? I don't know if I told you, but I have gone quite often to this naturist village in France called the Cap d'Agde. It's very famous. Do you know about the Cap d'Agde?

No, that one has missed me.

So the Cap d'Agde is the biggest naturist village Wald Village in the world. And it's this place that was established, I think it was like in the early '70s, about the same time as your book, actually, or the setting of your book. And it is this place that originally was created for German tourists, and then it grew in popularity amongst people that were just generally naturists. And it's actually a walled village in France, not very attractive. It's a bit of a sort of concrete jungle. It's got all these sort of like old concrete apartment buildings that are really quite ugly that should all be demolished. But what makes it unique is that when you get in the village, there's all these signs with lines going across bikinis to say you're not allowed to wear anything. So providing the weather is, is good enough to go naked, everyone is encouraged to be naked, right? And, and one of the things that surprised me when I first went there aside from the fact that actually being naked amongst like 40,000 other naked people is like super fun. And wandering around the supermarkets is the lack of pubic hair. Like, and we're talking about a town, right? This is actually a town with shops and supermarkets and everything, but everyone's naked. So of course, you're wandering around going like, whoa, whoa, like, where's all the pubic hair gone? And It's all ages because in France, it's clearly like a thing to just strip it all off. And frankly, I think it looks a bit weird when you get to a certain age and you've just got literally nothing there. But there's clearly like this cultural thing there and it's, and it's bizarre.

Suzanne Noble Noble, I'm 85. I manscape. I keep the pubes clear of hair.

Really?

I'm 85. Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I don't— I guess with guys, it's slightly like a different thing because, you know, on women, we've got, we've got like pubes is like a fashion thing, right? You've got a Hollywood, you've got a Brazilian, you know, when I went recently, she was like, do you want the landing strip? Or do you want it all off? Or like, what do you— how do you want it?

Right.

So we have kind of choices now around all of this, or just to leave it like this TikTok girl, right? But for me, I was like, no, no, I don't really want to strip the whole— like, just, you know, just, just make it look kind of nice. I don't want it completely removed because I just think it makes me feel kind of childlike and frankly a bit odd. Whereas with men, sometimes I think there's some rationale behind it, whether it's more— I wouldn't say it's necessarily more hygienic because I don't really think it is more hygienic, frankly. But I do think that it makes certain parts of your anatomy maybe look a bit bigger. I don't know.

That's, that's true. That's part of the equation, right? But for me, it's the golden rule. It's like ethical reciprocity. Because I want to— I want you to be able to have the best experience down there. Likewise, when I'm down there, I want to have the best experience. I don't want a distraction. Yeah, I don't want to have my nose tickled. I don't want to get it caught between my teeth. I don't want to roaming around in my throat, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

So when it— so I think oral sex is a probably number one on the list for why would you want to keep the area?

Yeah.

You know, shaven or not a bush. A bush is just for me.

I don't know. I mean, look, different strokes for different folks. Personally, I was— I only did the waxing thing when I got back from the Grand Canaries as a bit of a present for somebody. And because I thought it would be nice, right? And but I also thought, oh my God, it's going to be so painful. And I actually had a really good woman and it wasn't so bad. And then the guy that I, you know, did the— did this present for, he was like, God, that was so nice. Right. And then, of course, I thought, oh, now I need to do it again. But then I did it again. And then it wasn't— it didn't hurt nearly as much. And now, of course, because I'm much older, I find that the growth is really, really slow. So I'm not I'm actually like, oh, you know what, I'll do this. And, and it's, you know, like you said, it makes, it makes oral sex more pleasurable. Having said that, I've gone down on guys with hair and it doesn't bother me at all. I mean, really doesn't bother me. I'll tell you what does bother me is sometimes when a guy has got really stubbly face and it gets scratchy.

Bare.

Like, that's a lot worse for me because, you know, you end up with friction burns in places that you don't want them. Probably too much information for everyone, by the way.

No, it's interesting. From my perspective, I'd prefer not to. I mean, yeah, I think the vulva has its own intricacies.

Yeah.

So let it shine.

But then going back to the whole bush thing. So I do know someone who, who really likes that. And recently his wife has started taking testosterone and that, of course, makes it come back. And he said, like, now she's got this kind of like 1970s looking bush, which he thinks is hot. So, you know, this is, this is a very particular— like, everyone's quite particular about this, which is why my French experience I found quite interesting, because it was almost pretty much universal that nobody had pubic hair. Like, I just didn't see anybody at all. And, and it's also a bit of a— it's a swinging place as well. So, you know, you do see people in all different kinds of scenarios. But I was just like, whoa, this is obviously, especially I guess in Europe, in Western Europe, it's a thing. Like, take it all off.

So it could be like your description in France reminds me of hedonism.

Yeah, I've not been there.

And people are naked. There's a prude side and a nude side to hedonism. Is there? I didn't know that. Side. Why go to the prude side if you're going to Edenism? But it's there. It's there for you to enjoy the resort and all its amenities. But yeah, you can— most of the people on the prude side, let me backtrack, there aren't that many on the prude side, but those that are, the women will wear bikini bottom but no top. Yeah, but on the nude side, I would think walking around, if somebody showed up with a big bush, they're going to gain a lot of attention. Yeah, a lot of stares.

I'll put it a lot of stairs, but not necessarily all in a bad way. Not—

no, no, no, no, no, no.

And I've met, you know, because now let me interrupt right there.

Because I think the freedom that you've experienced of being in the nude.

Yeah.

It's just such a free, a freeing experience unless you've tried it. And if you didn't like it, you didn't like it. But I think most people, it's a very freedom feeling. But everybody does their own thing in the setting.

Yeah.

And I think, you know, one of the things that people always struggle with, many people struggle with at our age, is around confidence, body confidence. And I always say to people, look, you don't have to engage in anything at places like Cap d'Agde. You can just walk around naked. But there is a certain freedom and also a huge amount of— I find it incredibly inspiring to be amongst people of all shapes and sizes who are just confident enough in their shape to just be naked. And it makes you realize that even people that with their clothes on, you think, oh my God, they're just so, you know, perfect. Once they get their clothes off, you know, they've got scars, they've got cellulite, they've got, you know, everybody's got stuff, right? And I think that's, that's for me what I enjoy about the whole naked experience is it just, it just brings me back to like, I'm okay. They're okay. We're all okay. And because sometimes you can feel insecure about your body shape as an older person. It's quite nice to see older people wandering around in the nude.

The Hedonism Experience for me came about my— I wrote another book in 2000 and it was about caring and aging. And I wanted to re-up the book about 2010, '12. And so it was new barriers that seniors were going through. And it came to my attention, Hedonism, a swingers resort in Jamaica. And it was a seniors week.

No.

At Hedonism. And I went, you gotta be kidding me. And when I wrote the book in 2000, it would've been impossible to conceive of this. So I called the organizer of the event and this was his third term. And he said the first time he called Hedonism and I'd like to do this with a senior group. And he said, they laughed at me. You're not gonna get anybody. So he begged them. He said, Let me try it. And they granted him, I think, 15 rooms.

Yeah.

He had to call them back. I need 20 rooms. He had to call them back. I need 25 rooms.

Wow.

So the first led to the second, led to the third. And I thought, in, um, for my book, I convinced my wife this was research.

Amazing.

And so that's how we started on the nudes, on the prude side. Wow.

That's— and how old were you at that point?

Well, I think that was around 2012 maybe. And I'm 85 today, so you can do the math. Wow. So, so when we got there and there were people in their 50s, 60s, 70s, and all body shapes.

Yeah.

And nobody cared. And nobody cared what you did. And since you were naked, nobody gave a damn. You didn't, weren't showing off anything. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think the thing about the Cappadocia as well is there are a lot of people in their 50s, 60s, 70s, and above loads, because it started off as a naturist place, and then it became a swinging place. There is a little bit of conflict between those two groups that's been going on for a while, especially as the sex side of it has gained in popularity, and more, there's more of that activity than there used to be. You know, I, I first started going there in 2005 or something. So, you know, I've been going, I've been 7 times in the past 20 years, and in the past 3 years I've been every year because it's just, it's just really fun. I mean, it's just like a fun thing to do. I must admit that after about 4 days, I've kind of had it with watching people having sexual intercourse. It's kind of like, there you go again. You know, I mean, it's only, it's exciting to start with and then slightly less exciting. But I think if you've never ever done it and you're curious about these sorts of places, Cap d'Agde is kind of like our place. And I know friends of mine have been to Hedonism and spoken, you know, it's obviously much smaller, but it's got a similar vibe to it from what I understand. It's, it's sex, it's food, it's, you know, it's on the ocean.

So watching a group on a raft is kind of entertaining too.

Yeah, we get the, um, we get the groups of men in the med because ours is an incredibly long beach on the Med. We get them in the water doing all sorts of things with people. So, and there's actually, because the Cap d'Agde is actually a village, you get families who go there, you get singles who go there, you get guys who go there who want sex, you get gay people, you get straight people, you get all sorts of people. And they all kind of divide themselves up along a very long beach. So by the time you get to the end of the beach, that's where all the hardcore stuff is going on. And at the beginning of the beach, there's children running around and families and everybody's frolicking in the water naked. It's an incredibly unusual place. And I can't recommend it enough for anyone who's curious to what human beings get up to in naked villages.

And that's great because there they can take it in degrees.

Yeah, totally.

You can go as far as you want to go.

Yeah, yeah, completely. And we don't really do prudes and nudes and all that because it doesn't— it's, it is what it— for whatever you're there for, that's what it's for. So yeah, but I mean, going back to the whole pubic hair thing, I remember I had a friend of mine who came over when I was having a garden party and I have a hot tub. And she did have some hair sticking out from her bathing suit. And my— a friend of mine was like really shocked by that. I think actually a lot of people were shocked by it, frankly, was this lack of concern. You know, it's like, this is my body. This is what's— what it is. And I'm not gonna— I'm not gonna amend any part of that. And And when I was growing up, I wouldn't have thought about shaving any of this stuff off, to be honest, because I just didn't. We just didn't do that.

Yeah. And the oral sex wasn't prominent at that time.

No, that's probably true, actually.

I can't—

I don't mean it wasn't prominent at your age, as your progression, you know.

No, I don't remember. In fact, no, I don't remember anybody in my 20s doing much of that at all. Not at all. And in fact, you've, you've only just reminded me that oral sex wasn't really an act. It was— well, that's not true. Oral sex, women to men, was, was always a thing. Was always a thing. From the time I lost my virginity, it was a thing.

Always.

But the opposite way, it was not a thing. Definitely not a thing.

So if you read my book and you read about Butch, Butch is very popular with the women because he discovered it was a good thing.

Yeah. I mean, guys. Yeah, I, you know what? I can't remember a single instance of that. But then when I— yeah, then after my divorce and everything, that was a totally different story. But by then, you know, I was like 40. So totally different. Yeah, totally different thing.

We're talking about pubic hair. So I'm thinking of body, body hair, because I have licked a woman from head to toe.

Yeah.

And so sometimes there's some nipple hair that kind of kills my libido. A woman.

Yeah.

And then there's underarm hair. I love underarm hair.

So when I say I look—

well, when I look from top to bottom—

No, I get people really turned. I mean, I have very little underarm hair, but I don't shave. And I have people telling me that they love that. They find it really hot. So this is such a, you know, the thing about the hair thing is it's so personal and, and, and And what's really interesting about it as well is when I, when I went recently and, you know, and did my whole waxing thing, I did it because I thought that this person that, you know, that I was going to see, I thought that he would really enjoy it, which he did.

Okay.

But he enjoys it regardless of what I, of whether I do that or not.

Okay. He doesn't, he doesn't need me to do it.

It's not a requisite.

He doesn't ask, and he's not going to demand because it's just not—

that's not going to happen, right?

And I remember when somebody said to me once that they preferred a woman who didn't have any hair down there. I felt a little bit slighted by that. And I felt, you know, it's my body. It's my choice.

Like, I'm totally—

like, I am going to do what I want. And the fact that you enjoy it better in another way. In a way, I kind of wanted to do like a screw you, you know, like, I'm not, I'm not doing this for you. I'm doing this for me, because it makes me feel sexier, it makes me feel whatever. So when somebody tells me that they want it this way, I have to then decide how important that is, you know, to please this person. Because I have never ever asked a guy to shave anything, to be honest, anything at all. It's like your body. I'm gonna deal with it. Super hairy guys, not really my thing. But I'm not going to ask them to shave off or wax off or laser off all their body hair just because I don't, I don't particularly like hairy people, like in that way, like super hairy people. And I kind of feel like that's, you know, when people start making demands like that, I get a bit uncomfortable about the whole thing. So I'm like, where does it end?

I'm in total agreement. And that's why when the woman posted on TikTok her bikini bush, that was fine. That's for her. That's fine. Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah. And we have a choice, right, of whether or not how important on our list of deal breakers, like is like a super hairy person, am I not gonna get together with a super hairy person just because I don't find it a massive turn-on? If I really like them and I find them attractive, then the hair thing is like, it's just a thing. It's not, you know, but if I was given a choice, the person that I'm usually with, he has literally no hair at all. Like he has no body hair. He's completely smooth. And I have to tell you, it's super sexy. It's really sexy. It's like super smooth skin. It's just, it's just lovely. And I've been with other people who've just had no body hair, and it's almost— some people go, God, that's a bit odd, isn't it? But no, it's, you know, it is what it is.

So I don't know where you find these dudes, but here in the States, Native Americans have that that ability not to have body hair.

Oh, not to have body hair.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Interesting.

No, it's Suzanne Noble, English person. But I've also been, you know, with other cultures where sometimes it was more of a medical condition where they actually didn't, they didn't have hair on their head. They didn't have hair anywhere. Right. So that's a completely different thing. But I mean, I just think that the hair thing in general is some of it's a fashion statement, some of it's influenced by porn, some of it is around, like you say, I, you know, you just prefer to give oral sex to someone who doesn't have it. And some women, I suspect, have the same thing. It's just, you know, before porn came along, did we ever see women without it?

Yeah, I think we look back to Penthouse magazine, which started in Great Britain, and then Playboy for it in the United States. I think their sales probably were stronger when their centerfolds didn't show pubic hair as to when they had. If they had a lot of pubic hair, I'm not sure how much negativity they would've had on the sales of the magazine. So I think you're talking about porn. I agree. You don't see Nothing. Pubic hair in porn on men or women.

No, nothing.

Um, no, but outside of that, again, to each his own. But yeah, I mean, I think it started with, again, the, the shaved look. Yeah, the magazines, because the '70s porn girls used to have a bush. And, you know, absolutely.

And, and now when you look at these young women You know, they're very self-conscious about all of that and doing all sorts of things to try and get rid of hair, not just down there, but, you know, lasering off like all hair, almost trying to get rid of all hair. And it's almost like hair in itself has become demonized, you know. And it's— and, and I think, you know, we have to reflect on how much of it is fashion, how much of it is porn, how much of it is the influence of the patriarchy in men and just going, honey, that's the way I like it. You know, if you want to be with me, that's the way I want you to be, right? And, and so it's— here's a— I mean, I hate to say it, but this discussion is— you realize it's a real political statement, like, to not have this or to have this, because it reflects a lot of judgment and and the media and societal expectations and all sorts of stuff that frankly, when I was in my 20s, I didn't think about any of this shit. I just wandered around with my, you know, bush as it was back then. Now, as I got older, it's sort of, there's, and through years of all of this kind of removal, it's become less then. But you know, when I look, sometimes when I look at it, I think, oh, what would it be like to have that again? Because I'm never, it's never gonna come back probably.

But yeah, I think an electric razor can be just as effective in doing the job as waxing. Why do you— I wouldn't want to tell you that. That's not true.

That's totally not true. And the, and the reality is that if you start using products like that, the, the way you do all of this exfoliation and, and removal of hair influences how it comes back, whether it's bristly or soft, whether it comes back quickly or not quickly. Like, sure, for expediency purposes, you can just use a razor, but then 2 days later you are in so much discomfort, you have no idea. And I don't know if that's the same for men, but certainly for women, like, I've had these conversations and it's deeply unpleasant. So again, some of it is around the dis— how much discomfort you want during the waxing, which is, you know, can be just incredibly painful versus the shaving, or whether you're just like, fuck it, leave it, which I have done for, you know, most— mostly that's what I've done until quite recently when I made the decision like, oh, you know, it was quite nice. I'll do it again.

But I may change my mind.

I mean, you know, like I said, the person that I, you know, that I was thinking about, he's not bothered. He doesn't really care. I mean, a little better. He might say, oh, that was a little—

I'm just trying to picture you, you know, did you go, happy birthday?

No, I told him actually, because I just told him, I just was like, I'm doing something I haven't done for years. It's probably going to be extraordinarily painful. I want a massive show of appreciation for this. And I want you to recognize that it's, you know, this is not something that I go into lightly.

And then afterwards, I was like, oh, that wasn't actually so bad.

So, you know, like I said, I I then did it again.

But anyway, they—

He must have showed you his appreciation.

Oh my God, the guy is an absolute monster when it comes to that stuff. He's unbelievable. He could live there as it—

like, just live there. He could live there.

Oh, my kind of man.

Honestly, if you're a woman, you don't get rid of a guy like that. You know, you just hang on to them.

I hesitate, but I got to— are you a cougar?

No, no, he's a bit younger, but not much.

He's only, he's only 5 years younger.

It's not nothing. That's nothing.

So I was on the edge of cougarism.

No, cougar is like 10 or 20 years, don't you think? Yeah, no, no, I think, I think, no, I'm not really, I don't, I don't think of him that way anyway.

No, I mean, no, but yeah, I just, I think that we— like I said at the start, choosing what to do with the hair downstairs is a totally personal choice that should never, ever be influenced by someone else's desire. That's my feeling. It's like, just, you know, do—

We're in agreement.

Do what you want to do with that stuff. But, but yeah, to hair or not to hair. I can't believe we've actually spent 30 minutes talking about that.

This is the fastest conversation, Sam, I've ever had.

It's amazing when you get onto a topic in which two people are obviously quite passionate. Yeah, because normally I only do these podcast for 30 minutes.

Well, so we have to, we have to thank the young woman on TikTok for this.

Yeah, we're going to have to, you're going to have to send me, you're going to have to share with me that TikTok and then on my Substack, I'll, I'll put a little, I'll put it, you know, I'll embed it so that everybody knows what we're talking about because I've not, I've not seen that. But you've, you've clearly got that bookmarked.

So it's not going to be difficult for you to find It might be, but it's right here in my head.

I can picture it, but I'm not sure I can find it, but I'll look.

Anyway, it's been so lovely to talk to you again. And check out Sam's book, which is called— here we go. It's called Hookups, Hiccups, and Happenstances by Sam Feldman, coming all the way to us from upstate New York. You're such a sweetie. I love talking to you.

By the way, talking about the book, I'm going to Las Vegas next week to receive an award from the book.

Really? Yeah.

And this podcast, 2 weeks later, is up for the best sex podcast in the Golden Penis Awards. Alright, it's actually called the Sexual Freedom Awards, but you receive a Golden Penis penis statue with wings if, if I win. So, so I'll keep my fingers— you've, you've already won your award, right?

Correct.

Yeah, won your award, and I'm hoping to win mine. So fingers crossed.

Good luck on the flying penis.

Thank you.

Have a really great day.

You too. Bye-bye.