Episode 142: The Taboo of No Sex: A New Perspective

This week's episode has been sponsored by Oh My Bod, shifting the evolution of pleasure. Hi, this is Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. Have you ever wondered if you're perhaps one of the only people out there who isn't getting laid or who isn't having sex and actually is okay about it, but feel ashamed or perhaps embarrassed or don't even know how to go about talking about it because it's just something that we just— so many of us just don't hear much about, which is acceptance or around not having sex. And that's what Leora Lightwoman and I are going to talk about today. Leora has been on the program before. She teaches Tantra workshops. She facilitates tantric sessions. And today we really wanted to look at the whole aspect of no sex. So maybe that seems counterintuitive. What do you think, Leora? Calling ourselves Sex Advice for Seniors here.

Well, I would like to also look at, you know, what possibilities are there when sexual intercourse is, is not happening. And also possibilities for that to change.

Yeah.

But I think the most taboo issue is the choice— the choice to not have sex. And what does that mean for any particular couple? And, you know, what could it mean? Yeah.

And I think in relationships, often we go through— especially in long-term relationships, I think we go in waves often of being highly— feeling highly sexed or, or very aroused all the time, to sometimes then our body changes and maybe our feelings around sex change, or maybe the way we experience sex changes because of those bodily changes. And often there's that inability to articulate what one is going through. And then sometimes I suspect what happens is you just shut down.

Yes, and I think we're talking about various things here, but, but what are the reasons why people want sex and have sex? And those naturally should evolve with age. So given that we're here talking about sex, sex advice for seniors, I'm really interested in exploring the differences in the evolution that can happen with age, where something can drop away and in fact something new can come in. But unless we allow the dropping away of the old, we don't necessarily know what that new possibility could be.

Yeah, completely. And I know for myself that one of the things that I recognized was that as my libido started to change around the menopause, and as a result of that, getting turned on wasn't as spontaneous as it had been when I was younger. I had to really delve deep into myself to figure out what that new person looked like with that different type of arousal pattern. And also, I kind of had to make the choice— how important was sex for me anyway?

Yeah, yeah. And then if you're in a couple, a long-term couple, both people have their own experiences, which could be entirely different. And how does that get navigated? It's It's enough for one's personal process, but also for the relationship. How? It's such a tricky topic. And I know people, couples, very eloquent, very connected, who, you know, come to see me, and up to that point, they really struggle to talk about sex anyway. So they've been together for years, but actually talking about this was too much for them. And so to then talk about the changes and evolution there isn't much of a foundation. So there's a lot to put together to enable that possibility.

And do you find that normally when people come to you in that circumstance, that it's normally driven by one specific person in the relationship?

Yes, but what I tend to notice is that the discomfort of the other is less obvious, but there.

Yeah, completely. And one of the things that came up in this TV show that I did last week was that exact question of, you've been in a long-term relationship, maybe you're not having sex anymore, maybe one or the other of you feels unhappy or sad about that and would like to try and reconnect and reignite the desire in your relationship. What are the steps that you can take to do that? And I know it's not easy.

It's not easy, and it's not one size fits all. And, you know, if a couple have been together, if they're in their 50s, 60s, 70s, and they've been together for decades and decades, there's a lot of history, and there's a lot to, you know, that there's a lot of risk because sexuality is fire.

Yeah.

And if you're wanting to, in a sense, let the old burn away and allow the possibility that a phoenix could be rising from those ashes.

Yeah.

Other things might change and in fact would need to change. So you can't, the wishes, I'd like to go back to how I was, is often, you know, the refrain that people will come with, but that's not possible.

I have heard that so often from people that I'm very close to, I have to say, is I want to go back to that old me. I want to feel the same way that old me felt. And I've often said, that's just not gonna happen, you know? I mean, you just have to. And I do think there's a period of grieving around sometimes if the old you was this fiery you who had the ability to attract lots of partners or maybe just felt very sexual just in themselves. And that changes, then it can take a while to process the fact that your pheromones aren't lighting up the room when you walk in everywhere you go. And you have to develop a different kind of way of, of engaging with your sexual self that may be completely outside the approval of others, which I think women are, you know, we are prone to, is the male gaze and just wanting that. And when you don't have that, you have to kind of figure out, well, what does the new sexy me look like? Is there a new sexy me, or what's going on there?

I love that you say that, you know, and this grieving and this reinvention, because I think that's part of this process of transformation, that we can't rely on the outside to mirror our sexiness in the traditional way. We need to find something else. And embody it ourselves. And then it's possible potentially to light up a room should we wish to in a different way, or not light up a room and be completely comfortable with that.

Yeah, completely. And I think there's a lot of people out there who are actually more comfortable about that because maybe they, they knew that a lot of the, um, the acknowledgment that they were getting was because of the way they looked. And so when it stopped being about that. It was just about the way they are. They could just relax because it wasn't all about the visual all the time. Um, I, I sort of came from the opposite end of the world, which was I was a kind of fat, spotty teenager. And so when I finally lost all of that in my early 40s, believe it or not, I was like, wow, this is like what it feels like to be a not spotty teenager.

Wow.

And that was really fun for a while. For about 10 years, I got a lot of attention and I really enjoyed it 'cause I'd never experienced that as a younger woman. And then of course I lost it all again in my 60s and I was like, oh, okay, I gotta work this one out again. But yeah, it's interesting. And I think combined with that is often the fact that, and people have started speaking about this more and I'm finding this a very interesting topic is, about how much, how many women have sexual life has been dominated by the feeling of being responsible for men's pleasure, feeling like they are there to satisfy men, and that our pleasure is secondary. So that when it gets to the point where they're not procreating, or maybe they're not feeling that same sense of urgency about satisfying their partner anymore. They just go, you know what, I'm done with this. I don't need to deal with this anymore. Instead of thinking, this is my time now, I can do it. I can, I can step into my own power now and not have to— there's a lot that's being spoken about around, around how much pleasure, how much women play into the idea that pleasure is basically for men.

Yes, I think that can be complete liberation, and I think that's part of this whole transformation of menopause. It's lovely to hear that, that in fact we can let go of so much that that particular phase, it may be finished, and there's a whole other question: what do I want? And, you know, that freedom potentially. Um, and I think it can come the other way around, um, but more perhaps it's more difficult in some respects for men to, um, to understand themselves as a sexual man irrespective of their performance.

Yeah.

And, um, and that's where I think the relational bit comes in, because it's this bigger question, this wider question, you know, is, is sex just about pleasure, or is there actually more to it than that as well? You know, is actually— is the— because if the meaning was to procreate, as you've said, to have, you know, to raise a family, what happens when that family is now adult? What is our purpose? Why do we want to make love? It could be beautiful, but maybe the way we've done it before no longer serves. So we could find beauty again, but what's the meaning? What's the purpose? What's the real You know, intention, because we're also looking towards the end somewhere.

Yeah, and I find that a lot of people's response when I tell them that I'm talking about sex in later life, just say, isn't it over by the time you're your age? Like, why are you even bothering with that? You know, there's a, there's a sense that there's a taboo around this whole topic that relates to that there's a period of time in which you do it. And then, and then the rest of the time you don't need to do it anymore because its primary purpose is no longer relevant in, you know, in a traditional kind of relationship.

And maybe it's not about doing it per se. I'm going to kind of pick up on that word. Maybe it's about being something together. Maybe it's about noticing something because, you know, my orientation is around the sort of the less seen aspect of sexuality, which we could generally call sexual energy, but we can also call it generative energy. And actually, when a couple come together with that perspective and with some skills and experience around that, it is generative. So, and that doesn't have to be the physical penetrative sex that they had before. It can be something else. And that's what we want, surely. Like, the closer we get to the end, the more we want to eat life, as it's said. We want to really know what is this life.

Yeah, yeah.

That's how I feel. I can't imagine many people who don't have that wouldn't want that if they felt it was possible.

So what do you— what does it look like to your mind to have this more —what's the word—more expansive sense of what sex and pleasure and this energy can look like?

I think the audio place where I'm staying has just come on. Can you hear it?

Yes, I can slightly hear it. No, it's okay.

I think it's stopped now, but would you mind repeating your question?

Yes, so my question is, what would this kind of sexual energy in a relationship look like?

Yes, well, look like— I wonder if you're like—

what would it feel like?

Well, one thing that, that might sound— it might sound odd, but, um, but if, if, if we imagine the archetypal grandparents and, and, and a couple don't need to have, um, children, they don't need to be opposite sex. But if we imagine that archetype of that generation, and there's— the child rearing is done, so there's a more expansive possibility to be concerned for the future generations. And, you know, if sexual energy has to do with life, if it has to do with um, creation. What is it that, that we as a couple wish to create between us and bring into our family, friends, wider community, and into the world? What are the qualities that we wish to, um, celebrate, embody, and grow and cultivate? So there's a theme in Tantra around cultivating. Yeah. Um, and so when we look at making love in that light, it, it, it engages more of us. It's not just about what's happening in mine or your genitals, it's about what's happening in our being, what ignites us. Yeah. And, um, and so just having that context of that we are making love, we can create this possibility is, is, you know, it's, it's very freeing for a lot of people. It gets out of all of this me, you, this, that, what should I do, how should I do it. Yeah. Um, and then, and then I know we touched on this last time, but this theme that I think is, is so worth exploring of, of, of lovemaking, that's, that's, that's about a quality of softening, surrendering, being, feeling. Because when a couple do that in connection— I don't know whether I've frozen because you're—

No, no, I can see you. Okay, great.

When a couple do that in connection, there starts to be a possibility that the felt sense of me and you, me and the other, starts to soften. Yeah, there's this sense of something greater is here.

And do you think that, bearing in mind that there's this strong sense in some people that— we started off talking about people who may decide that they don't want to have sex, like, in the traditional way. Do you think that those people can still have the ability to have that kind of energy with their partner, even if they feel that penetrative sex, for example, is not something they want to do anymore?

Yes, and, and I think there are many different reasons why a couple might decide not to have penetrative sex. And in my experience, more commonly a couple will come, they say, we've accepted it. Yeah, I definitely know couples who have accepted it, but much more commonly they resigned to it. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And when they're resigned to it, you can't, you can't sort of pretend, you can't make something happen when they're resigned to it. It's important to understand what's gone— not gone wrong isn't really the right word, but what's missing? What are the elements that they're not aware of? What is it that each of them would like and desire? Yeah. Um, what do they not dare to talk about? And often the context is, is outside of the bedroom. Yes. So it's usually, in my experience, couples who come and see me, to do with how do they relate overall. Yeah, so that's quite a big question because to create the magnetism in lovemaking, they need to create that in their daily life. Yeah, completely.

I think it was Esther Perel who talks about, um, distance breeds desire and the kind of the mystery that needs to be created within relationships to create this sense of desire, that there's always something a little bit hidden that keeps people interested and curious because this idea that you're my best friend, you're my lover, you're the father, you're the mother, you know, there's these multiple roles that we heap onto a single individual can also take away this sense of curiosity that makes either just any form of pleasure so much more interesting. When that's— when everything is on the table, right?

So, okay, I love that, that word, that curiosity and the mystery, because that's, that's what it is when we're young. Like, it's all exciting and mysterious, we don't know. And when we got used to something, it's, it's not mysterious. But also we get used to roles, we get used to dynamics. So I've, you know, recently been seeing some couples, and there seems to be a certain theme For example, she— so, so they're, they're reaching this kind of age around 60 or something like that. Yeah. And she's usually a yoga teacher or a therapist or, or something like that. And he's, he's just retiring from a very, you know, solid mainstream job. And they've got their roles. Yeah. Which work, which worked. Yeah. You know, and they function brilliantly in the world, but it doesn't work between them now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so how do those— how does particularly the woman who's the leader in the relationship, she knows everything, but she isn't getting what she wants, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. How does she sit back? How does she become, in a sense, the archetypal vagina? Yeah, how does she become that soft, succulent, juicy, inviting feminine presence, especially when he isn't quite cutting it for her on the penetrative, masculine, holding, um, front? So, so these are the things that, that start to to come to light, you know, when we're looking at why is the relationship fine but this isn't. It's actually, well, the relationship is great but not on that level. So how can she sit back? What does he need to come forward and be a bit more exciting? So one possibility, and this is going against, you know, the traditional male what we think. Anyway, I'm saying the people who come to see me are not usually the macho men who go, I want to shag, I want to shag, I want to shag. Yeah, they're much more, um, cultivated. Yeah, yeah. However, they could do with a little bit more rough and ready.

Yes. Yeah, but they're confused, aren't they? I mean, I can see that there are many men out there who are just confused by, you want me to be this, and then you want me to be this, and you want me to do this, and then you want me to do this, and I don't know what you want me to do. Do you want me to do this or that? 'cause you tell me you want this, but then you want that. And then I do that and then you say, no, why can't you do more of this?

You know? Absolutely. It's horrendous. They've just got used to being sensitive and kind and, you know, they're amazing. Now it's wrong. They're gonna start all over again. Not easy. It's not easy. And then she doesn't want him to stop being nice.

No.

Wants him to, you know, and so how do you, how do you do that? How do you get the needs, the desires, the, the oomph onto the table in a safe enough way?

Yeah, yeah, no, it's, it is, you know, as I've said before, like, on this show, they were saying, how do you do that? And I said, well, you know, it's, it's not easy. Normally, I would say go to somebody like yourself, frankly, because I think to one of the next questions was, what's, how do you get those conversations even started, you know, as a couple? How do you get to the point, even the point where you go, you know what, I want something, I think we could do better than this. You know, I think that I want something else, but I don't know how to ask for it. You know, the person I was on the sofa with, she was like, do you do it while you're cooking dinner? Like, it's not easy to find those ideal moments to have those, very deep conversations about the fact that I've been with you for ages and I love you to bits, but this part of our relationship just needs to go somewhere else, right?

Completely. I think that's the hardest thing. And, you know, to create— even if you create the space to talk about it, you're already— it's already clear that something's up. That's true. How do you broach that? And I think, you know, usually the couples that's come and see me for this kind of theme, they're not in crisis. So after 30-whatever years, I want to reassure the listeners that, you know, it probably takes more than a little bit of awkwardness for your partner to say, right, that's it, that's the end. You know, you've probably got some real solid resilience in your relationship. Yeah. To be able to just shuffle things up a bit and feel some uncomfortable feelings a bit. And this stuff doesn't go away. You have to practice it. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And so the first thing I would say, which is the hardest, is to, as you say, have that initial conversation that, you know, can we just make a bit more space? Sometimes the thing is to start saying no to things. Yeah. And then, and then, but what are we going to do now? You know, we're not, we've not got our social arrangements, we're not doing this, what now? Well, exactly. Shall we go away for a weekend? Shall we sit at home in the garden? And then with all of that, then it's already awkward, right? Yeah, yeah. And, and then there's a chance for the conversation to, to begin. Yeah. And the more space, the more we can just a little bit Survive.

I think you're so right about the challenge sometimes of creating space, space for anything, um, because we occupy ourselves and we keep ourselves busy, and often that's an excuse to, to push aside those uncomfortable conversations that we don't want to have. So we just keep ourselves like super busy. Oh, I can't, I'm out tonight, I'm out tomorrow night, I can't do that, I can't do that. And so Therefore, we just keep parking those awkward conversations when actually saying, why don't we just not do anything this Sunday? Or, you know, why don't we just do something different? Often then creates the space to have— to just make the time to have those conversations that we've been putting off. And, you know, I know I diarize my sex life, and some people laugh about that because they think that it shouldn't be scheduled in the way that I do. But for me, it's an opportunity to look forward to being with somebody that I wanna spend time with. And I know that that period of time is just for us. That's it. Like, the phone doesn't get answered. I don't do any work. Nothing is gonna happen for the next few hours. For me, that's like the— I look forward to those moments of just having just that playful time with somebody. But I know lots of people laugh at me and they say, you know, sex should be spontaneous pleasure. And I just think, why?

Why? What's— I love what you're saying. I love what you're saying, that spaciousness, that, that commitment to something which occupies so much of the media. And yet if you look at the average diary is not prioritized in that way. And, you know, it— if we look at the animal kingdom, animals mate when things are all quiet and safe. Yeah. So when there's a bit of space. Yeah. I know people can get turned on by all sorts of circumstances, but actually the body, you know, when it relaxes, that's when these, these kind of feel-good hormones and stuff start to, start to kick in and we start to really bond. Um, yeah, I love what you're saying, that, that creating space. And as you say, often the hardest thing is just actually declaring it to other people and finding a way to talk about it. You know, people can invent a whole new topic, a whole new hobby. You know, I, I, I had a couple who were, were always going to, going off to do yoga when they were coming to 'Come and see me.' And gradually, you know, different ways of talking about it. And in fact, one couple who are seeing me at the moment said that actually when they started to say, 'Actually, we're doing nothing this weekend, we're just going to be together,' it woke people up. You know, their friends, their family were going, 'Oh, you know, this is nice, actually.' Yeah, completely.

I mean, I, I suspect that people find it odd. They— everybody knows my Sunday afternoons are sacred. But they find it odd, I suppose, because of the fact that I prioritize it. And I do think that prioritizing, as you say, what— whether it involves, you know, penetrative sex, pleasure, just hanging out together, just, just cultivating your relationship in a different way, whatever it happens to be. People find it odd that sometimes I think they find it unusual because of my age and because they think that prioritizing what I prioritize at my age feels odd. Whereas for me, it feels intentional because it's not, as I said, it's not about the me I used to be back when I was younger where I could be more spontaneous. I need to actually be quite intentional now And, and part of being intentional is about creating this space, this kind of erotic space with all of the stuff that comes with that, so that I can feel relaxed and feel, you know, involved.

Totally. And nourished. Yeah.

Enlivened. But people do find Yeah, I do find that people kind of are, they're curious and they also laugh because they think, oh, you know, that's a funny thing to do. But I think, no, it's not, you know, for me, it's not a funny thing to do. It's just a thing that keeps me feeling alive, really.

I remember for myself doing a training in a way in making love in a very subtle way. Yeah. And we were told that it was, you know, we should put aside 3 hours. Yeah. And it seemed shocking at that moment. It seems completely shocking and, and like, and, and so against the effectively the Protestant work ethic, you know, this idea that it's so indulgent, that sense of almost no, surely not. And then once it started to happen, it was like, of course. The time, just, you know, there's more time now because things are just sweeter.

Yeah. And I, yeah, I think 3 hours is the ideal time. And again, people are like, 3 hours seems an extraordinary long time, but you're not, you know, it's, it's playing, it's just playful. And I think that's, that's what we're talking about here, isn't it? It's about getting back to the playfulness in your relationship, whatever that looks like for you, which doesn't necessarily have to look like, you know, straightforward penetrative sex, stroke, intercourse. It could be whatever you want it to be, whatever is playful for you.

Exactly, exactly. The humor, the playfulness, the enjoyment, the relaxation, simple touch. I mean, we're built on touch. I once trained in baby massage, and we were told that, you know, that a human being isn't properly formed. In many cultures, it's understood that until they've been touched and massaged, a baby doesn't fully come into its being. And it's not just babies, it's many of us never had that. So, you know, we're still coming into ourselves. Yeah. And then there's also opportunities, you know, on the other end of the scale, which is, which is like including that playfulness, but to also go into a quality of devotion. So for example, there's a very beautiful series really of rituals where, for example, the man might offer a gesture of honoring, of namaste, to the vagina, to the yoni of his partner. And that can happen in same-sex relationships, but, you know, this— and really gazing and really talking about how beautiful this part of his beloved is and what it means to him and to her. And that can happen the other way around so that she will also honor him. And then if there was also potentially some touch at the end of that, just as a quality of honoring, "Thank you for all that you've given me." you know, thank you for all that you might give me, all of those things. It's an experience that some people have never had, and it brings us into our sense of, um, I want to say expansiveness, but capacity as a man, as a woman. We want to be that quality that we see mirrored. Um, so, so yeah, and that can be playful. It doesn't have to be serious, you know. It can be Oh, let's have a look.

Yeah, I love— by the way, I love that. I've never heard that before, and I really love that. And I think the nice thing about that is that so many of us— and not so many men, because obviously they look down, they see what they see, right? It's just there. But so many women never really fully examine themselves, right? So they're quite sensitive to others who are down there going, what's going on, right? It's like, oh no, no, no, don't, because it's— I don't— some people have some, some people have uncomfortable feelings about that. So actually honoring it and worshiping it and saying how beautiful it is, is also a way of reflecting back that, that, you know, that you're, that you're all beautiful, right? That this part is not separate from the rest of your body, that it's, that it's that it's all part of your body and it can be as beautiful as the rest of your body. Or, um, so yeah, I really like that because I think we don't, as women, we don't honor that part of our body enough. We don't examine it enough. We don't really know enough about it. And we often kind of don't even, you know, there's lots of people out there that have never even, you know, self-pleasured. So they, they know even less. So acknowledging all of that is a way of bringing all of that into yourself and who you are. I think that's a really lovely—

thank you. Yeah, and I think especially, you know, with age, because we can't rely on the physical attractiveness of the body anymore, sadly. I went to the gynecologist the other day. I said to her, what's this? This didn't— this looked like this. She said Anno Domini, my dear. I know it's your age. Yeah, but so then to be seen, then to be seen not for, you know, whether this bit's a little bit saggier than it used to be or a bit grayer, but to actually— that the, the magic, the possibility, the meaning. Like, an older person has more, you know, more history, more life, more wisdom embodied in these, these parts.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, for me, the best people are the people who fully appreciate every single little part of you and, and don't say to you, oh, that's looking a bit saggy today. We don't need to hear that. But yeah, I mean, I think there's so many different ways that people can bring, as you say, that sexual energy into their everyday life that doesn't always have to end with sexual intercourse. Course. It can be playfulness, it could be massage, it can be honoring, it can be just the way that we relate to one another, it can be doing nothing. There are so many different ways that we can experience just the energy that comes from two people that just actually appreciate each other.

Totally, totally. And, you know, following on from that, and coming back to what we were talking about before about the roles and, um, you know, having to please the other. In a way, those, those are younger people's concerns, you know, that those are developmental issues really. So if we can park that and come into this sense of joy, appreciation, playfulness, devotion, honoring, exploration, mystery, then in a way the same act can be enjoyed in an entirely different context. So, you know, to offer pleasure from the place of like deep appreciation and delight is, you know, it becomes more apparent if there's nothing to prove, if there's nothing to, you know, if I don't have to, if it's not about my sense of self, if it's just about being in this, in this moment.

Yeah. And, you know, to round this off, I think it's a— we, we spoke about it before, but I think it's worth reminding everybody that this new place is a different place, right? This new place that we're entering into in this stage of life, it's a different place. It doesn't have to subscribe to the old ways, the ways that we're used to doing things, the ways that were familiar to us when we were younger. It can be a new and equally exciting place, and it's up to us to cultivate that new place and be looking forward towards it as opposed to feeling sad about the fact that we're never going to go back to the old stuff. And I do know that that takes time, but I think if you don't— if you're not thinking in that way, it all becomes very, very difficult. Frankly, definitely.

And I just want to celebrate also a couple who I know who came to see me because she had had a cancer diagnosis and had had surgery and radiotherapy and all of that, and had reached the point where in fact she didn't want to live, never mind have sex. Like, none of it was of interest. And she got through that, but as a result her partner had become very sort of protective of her and didn't want to bring in his own needs. And she initiated them coming to see me because she said, you know, this is now become more imperative. You know, I love this man. I want us to celebrate what we have whilst we can, however long that is. Yeah, yeah. And he was able to come forward, to become more, you know, of his own person. Yeah. And at the same time also just— sorry, just lost my thought a moment. But things blossomed in a way that might never have happened had that, um, had that situation not arisen. They, they're getting married. They've— oh wow, just literally the whole relationship has transformed just through that decision that actually, let's go for it. So I just want to leave with that note that we can all go for it at any moment.

Absolutely. And that's a great place to end. Thank you so much, Leora. It's been so great to talk to you again and Hope we'll get to see you in real life soon!

Likewise, it's been a real honor and a pleasure. Thank you, Suzanne Noble. Have a beautiful evening. Thank you. Thanks. Bye-bye.